Loose Change - Part III

[kevin]

As someone who is a citizen of the USA and a serial voter to boot, the idea that JDX votes scares the bejabbers out of me.

I bet he doesn't vote.

[WildCat]

I bet he doesn't vote.
Of course not. Any CT'er will tell you it's all fixed anyway.

[JamesB]

I have to admit, I have not been following Jones' stuff too much because I lack the technical knowledge to refute him (I assume). But I was shocked when he talked about where he got his sample of WTC steel--something about a memorial and there was some dirt so this woman scooped up the dirt and had it for years until she heard about his paper.

Uh, did these folks ever hear of the concept of "chain of custody"? And I wonder if the woman's name was Lucy Ramirez?

He gets pretty wacky. Fetzer loses it at the end of the first hour. I tivoed it and am burning it to a DVD. I don't have any video editing software though, so I will have to see if I can get it into a useful format.

I was also amused to hear how the Dean of the Defense Language School [sic] said that they were training the hijackers there in covert operations. DLI is a language school, not an espionage school. For God's sake, it is in the title. What, were they teaching Mohammed Atta Korean or something?

[T.A.M.]

If what the CTers say is true, and that the elite few have ruled the world and made us bend to their whims since the dark ages, then whats the big deal...let them...Seems to me, if it has always been this way, who am i to stop it...lol

[MarkyX]

Off-topic but somewhat related.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&hl=en

Another documentary about Islamic terrorism. Remember, Dylan Avery says they don't exist

[Gravy]

I have to admit, I have not been following Jones' stuff too much because I lack the technical knowledge to refute him (I assume).
I doubt if you lack the technical knowledge. Steven Jones uses very little technical information in his 9/11 work. His technique is to overwhelm with as many logical fallacies as he can fit on a page. He's the master at jumping to conclusions: the opposite of the scientific method. I have a couple of partly-finished projects about him, but I find it hard to get motivated to finish them. It IS a lot of work, because he writes a lot and gets so much wrong and uses such poor methodology.

edit: spelling

[SRW]

He gets pretty wacky. Fetzer loses it at the end of the first hour. I tivoed it and am burning it to a DVD. I don't have any video editing software though, so I will have to see if I can get it into a useful format.

I was also amused to hear how the Dean of the Defense Language School [sic] said that they were training the hijackers there in covert operations. DLI is a language school, not an espionage school. For God's sake, it is in the title. What, were they teaching Mohammed Atta Korean or something?

I am going to try the Sonic software
http://estore.sonic.com/upgrades/tivo/mydvd61_special.asp?o_src=&lang=enu&rd=21549&MailID=mydvd6tivo01150503&MID=
If anyone knows a better (free) solution I would like to hear it.

[JamesB]

I doubt if you lack the technical knowledge. Steven Jones uses very little technical information in his 9/11 work. His technique is to overwhelm with as many logical fallacies as he can fit on a page. He's the master at jumping to conclusions: the opposite of the scientific method. I have a couple of partly-finished projects about him, but I find it hard to get motivated to finish them. It IS a lot of work, because he writes a lot and gets so much wrong and uses such poor methodology.

edit: spelling

I e-mailed Jones regarding his changing the PNAC quote, and some other related stuff. He actually corrected some of it in his 170+ page Powerpoint. Never even bothered to reply to my e-mail though. I suppose I shouldn't help him out by factchecking his work, since apparently he never does.

[kevin]

I am going to try the Sonic software
http://estore.sonic.com/upgrades/tivo/mydvd61_special.asp?o_src=&lang=enu&rd=21549&MailID=mydvd6tivo01150503&MID=
If anyone knows a better (free) solution I would like to hear it.

Avid offers a free edition for both mac and windows platforms.

http://www.avid.com/freedv/

I will warn you this is based on the professional Avid tool and can be very confusing. Might take longer than you like to learn.

To edit Tivo movies you need to strip the DRM first and take them back to MPEG2 movies, which you can do with directshow dump.

http://prish.com/etivo/tbr.htm

If you get me a mpg file I can convert into just about anything else.

ETA: actually I think I can convert just about anything to anything. If you get a VOB from your DVD I can probably convert it to something else.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He's impossible to parodize. I was thinking of doing a post on how you can't fly planes into buildings in Flight Unlimited 2--that they do indeed just crumble against the outside and then the plane falls to the ground. But he's already topped that.

Post your parodies to his blog under a sock puppet. See how long you can keep him going. Bonus points if you can get him to take your arguments as his own or if he follows absurd leads that you plant.

[gumboot]

If what the CTers say is true, and that the elite few have ruled the world and made us bend to their whims since the dark ages, then whats the big deal...let them...Seems to me, if it has always been this way, who am i to stop it...lol


A good point...

If they have really been ruling the world that long, they're certainly doing a lot to improve it...

Better healthcare
More rights
Equality
Better technology
Better education
Greater freedoms
More fluid populations...

All seems fine to me!

-Andrew

[delphi_ote]

All seems fine to me!
Only as long as you're complicit in their globalist agenda, man! Tell that to the oppressed!

[Brainster]

Have you ever noticed how logical and sensible the CT crowd can be when dismissing somebody else's hypothesis as nutty? Suddenly they assemble evidence, analyze it correctly and debunk like a JREF Ninja.

Check out this page on the no-planer nonsense (http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/review.html). It's sensible, well-reasoned and draws on lots of evidence. If only the CTers would apply the same principles to their own pet theories this whole nonsense would come to a grinding halt.

Note in particular that at the end, the guy moans that he'd rather be studying the following:

* government suppression of free energy and antigravity technology.
* elite sponsored new age cults
* the history of elite Malthusian agendas and the NWO "B-team"of "earth-friendly" movements
* the 'peak oil' scam, and many other subjects.

:eye-poppi

[dubfan]

A good point...

If they have really been ruling the world that long, they're certainly doing a lot to improve it...

Better healthcare
More rights
Equality
Better technology
Better education
Greater freedoms
More fluid populations...

All seems fine to me!

-Andrew


REG:
They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers, and from our fathers' fathers.

LORETTA:
And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.

REG:
Yeah.

LORETTA:
And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.

REG:
Yeah. All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?!

XERXES:
The aqueduct?

REG:
What?

XERXES:
The aqueduct.

REG:
Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

COMMANDO #3:
And the sanitation.

LORETTA:
Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like?

REG:
Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done.

MATTHIAS:
And the roads.

REG:
Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--

COMMANDO:
Irrigation.

XERXES:
Medicine.

COMMANDOS:
Huh? Heh? Huh...

COMMANDO #2:
Education.

COMMANDOS:
Ohh...

REG:
Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.

COMMANDO #1:
And the wine.

COMMANDOS:
Oh, yes. Yeah...

FRANCIS:
Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.

COMMANDO:
Public baths.

LORETTA:
And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.

FRANCIS:
Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.

COMMANDOS:
Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.

REG:
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

....

[gumboot]

....


Monty Python are prophets.

-Andrew

[JamesB]

I love that bit. I used it earlier in response to a question posed by the rabbit cage scientist.

So, apart from the videos of the plane, this strange hole in the building and a few plane parts that may well have been planted on the streets, what IS the evidence that a plane hit the South tower?

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/unintentionally-hilarious-conspiracy.html

[Shrinker]

It's gonna be a great year for the truth folks, the LC forum now has filters to alter skeptical URLs as they are posted!

See our hero chuksheen rush in to...um... change the subject... 4 times...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9144&st=0

Edit: spills over into this thread too

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9149

[Sword_Of_Truth]

It's gonna be a great year for the truth folks, the LC forum now has filters to alter skeptical URLs as they are posted!

See our hero chuksheen rush in to...um... change the subject... 4 times...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9144&st=0

Nothing to see here... just a bunch of "truth" seekers gazing long into the abyss. :p

[Senor_Pointy]

It's gonna be a great year for the truth folks, the LC forum now has filters to alter skeptical URLs as they are posted!

Isn't it ironic how the "Truth Seekers Against the Evil Fascist Neo-Con Globalist Illuminati New World Order Government" is the first to employ suppressive tactics?

[R.Mackey]

:rolleyes: Duh, you guys, it's obviously the CIA manipulating their site. Don't you know a false flag op when you see one???

It's true.

[Shrinker]

:rolleyes: Duh, you guys, it's obviously the CIA manipulating their site. Don't you know a false flag op when you see one???

It's true.
30 minutes later...


Tranquillado, perhaps the forum has been hacked by outside forces to try to discredit us. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9144&view=findpost&p=6400010

[gumboot]

Four of the Troofers said the FDNY were in on the "inside job."

Two troofers said the hijackers were also victims, just like the passengers and crew.


:mad: This makes me mad. Hence why I find Ray's claims in the Naudet doco thread so infuriating.

I mean, accusing your government... okay... even accusing the police of doing naughty stuff... well, the cops do use force sometimes, they lock people up, etc. I can see that getting exploited. Theoretically.

But Ambulance officers and Fire fighters? Their only job is to HELP people. All they do is try protect people and their property. There is no aggression or violence or force in their workings.

I've always loved fire engines, since I was able to walk. I used to chase them down the street. Can't stand hearing people think they'd be in on something like 9/11. :(

-Andrew

[gumboot]

That's amazing. He's using Microsoft Flight Simulator to prove that the planes didn't hit the WTC. And we all know MFS is accurate down to nearest inch.



If ever there existed a bukkaked by stupid, it was his steps to prove the aircraft are in the wrong place in the video. Un-believe-able.

-Andrew

[Hutch]

ROTFLMAO I am watching CSPAN, Alex Jones is claiming we had 44,000 US troops in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan before 9/11 in order to invade Afghanistan. That is equal to nearly 3 divisions, out of the 11 on active duty. Amazing nobody noticed. Why is it then when we invaded Afghanistan we only used a small amount of Special Forces, and even then it took over a month before they began?

What! Ubek and Tajik are landlocked, the only way to get forces in there and support them is by air, and to move and support 44,000 troops would take damn near every bit of transport aircraft we have, and even then I don't know that it would be enough.

And you'd think the Russians, who are still rather sensitive about all those "Stans" on their Southern border, not to mention US troops in Iraq, would have mentioned smething about them.

Might have a doctorate in something but knows absolutely nothing about the military and logistics.

[gumboot]

Might have a doctorate in something but knows absolutely nothing about the military and logistics.


Universal quote for him...

"Might have a doctorate in something but knows absolutely nothing about <insert topic here>"

-Andrew

[60hzxtl]

What! Ubek and Tajik are landlocked, the only way to get forces in there and support them is by air, and to move and support 44,000 troops would take damn near every bit of transport aircraft we have, and even then I don't know that it would be enough.

And you'd think the Russians, who are still rather sensitive about all those "Stans" on their Southern border, not to mention US troops in Iraq, would have mentioned smething about them.

Might have a doctorate in something but knows absolutely nothing about the military and logistics.

Sounds like a debka source - sounds like something I read over there early in the Afgany war. I usually refer to it as "the 'usually' reliable debka". The comedy here is that I think debka is a disinformation source, (and used by the Isreali's - either that or a nes source that is wrong an awful lot of the time.) and when you are at war, cold or hot, there is nothing wrong with the weapon of disinformation.

I've been to Uzbekistan, in the stinkin' little town of Mary (where the Soviets ran their Afgany campaign from) You'd have heard the returning troops talking about this hell hole, there'd be a colony of half American 4 year olds, too, and a passle of war brides.

Funny when they fall for genuine disinformation.


- wha'dya mean Hutch, ya gotta feed, fuel and water troops when ya put 'em some place? Can't they pick up some clean skivies at Wal-Mart, and grab some jerky and Mountain Dew at the 7-11?

edit for clarity

[mrfreeze]

Well it seems they filtered it to keep the skeptics from spamming those horrible debunking links. So now all the people who were morally outraged are right back on the bandwagon.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9144&st=60

[kookbreaker]

It's gonna be a great year for the truth folks, the LC forum now has filters to alter skeptical URLs as they are posted!

See our hero chuksheen rush in to...um... change the subject... 4 times...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9144&st=0

Edit: spills over into this thread too

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9149

Gotta love the logic displayed there: "Its OK that Dylan did this for several reasons but it was probably hackers trying to discredit us! Oh, and anyone who points it out is a whiner. So there!"

[T.A.M.]

Just remember folks, letting them post what they want here, while they manipulate our postings over there, is what seperates us humans from the CT beasts. The more they do things like that, the more they prove us right...they haven't got the evidence to truely debate or argue, so they slip into tactics such as they have.

The fact is that their best debater, their spokeperson, couldn't have a serious debate, backed by evidence, with even an average debunker.

[WildCat]

It's gonna be a great year for the truth folks, the LC forum now has filters to alter skeptical URLs as they are posted!

See our hero chuksheen rush in to...um... change the subject... 4 times...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9144&st=0

Edit: spills over into this thread too

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9149
Yay for the TRUTH! And you will see OUR TRUTH, because we will block all other sites showing what a bunch of bunk our TRUTH really is!

And the Bush admin. is fascist?!

[apathoid]

Yay for the TRUTH! And you will see OUR TRUTH, because we will block all other sites showing what a bunch of bunk our TRUTH really is!

And the Bush admin. is fascist?!

Heh. Thats bascially what I said over there. Fully expecting that I'll be banned soon...

[T.A.M.]

They actually remind me of terrorist groups myself...almost like gorrilla warfare. they take advantage of the rules of fair play when it is to their advantage, but will use what ever tactics, unfair or otherwise, when it suits them.

[T.A.M.]

So now they are bitching that SLC manipulates their posts and links. What a bunch of lying hipocrits.

[WildCat]

Heh. Thats bascially what I said over there. Fully expecting that I'll be banned soon...
Heh, just saw it. And LondonEye's claim that SLC does the same thing, yet another lie propagated by the TRUTH movement.

I think it's proven by now that any web site or forum or group w/ "truth" in its name is dedicated to spreading lies.

[Shrinker]

I wonder if they'd filter this link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum

[T.A.M.]

They don't like to debate or hear anything that puts their pov in question. unfortunately, without them to debate, talk in here might turn into the same, just us bitching about them, and saying what idiots they are.

I only hope a few of the braver souls over there will come over here and to SLC and honestly debate.

For all I dislike KTs pov and his attitude about almost everything, I admire his courage to come over to these forums and debate the issues.

Seems like going over there to do the same won't be an option.

[apathoid]

Heh, just saw it. And LondonEye's claim that SLC does the same thing, yet another lie propagated by the TRUTH movement.
Yeah, I called him on it. "D'oh!"
I think it's proven by now that any web site or forum or group w/ "truth" in its name is dedicated to spreading lies.

Or single posters here, not mentioning any names...

[WildCat]

Yeah, I called him on it. "D'oh!"
Of course, the real reason that the loosers can't post there is when the do they get their (rule 8)'es handed to them on a silver platter. Pretty much the same as over here.

I'm surprised that Billzilla hasn't been banned yet, only a matter of time before JDX starts crying about him to the mods.

[apathoid]

I'm surprised that Billzilla hasn't been banned yet, only a matter of time before JDX starts crying about him to the mods.

Bill has been going through that place like a wrecking ball. I'm enjoying it while it lasts :)

[60hzxtl]

And the Leader of the Cult is not above letting people know He's watching them. . . (and now let's whine about the Patriot act - 'cause no one ever passed the GoogleAct, they just did it.

"you having fun out in Chesterfield, St. Louis, Missouri?

later bud." - Dylan Avery

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8551


Can't fault them for editing the links - They know what's good for you.

[kevin]

If ever there existed a bukkaked by stupid, it was his steps to prove the aircraft are in the wrong place in the video. Un-believe-able.

-Andrew

yeah, i thought the use of microsoft flight simulator was a pretty novel idea myself but all the examples I saw showed the videos were probably right. Although of course we have no clue about the accuracy of flight sim.

[kevin]

It's gonna be a great year for the truth folks, the LC forum now has filters to alter skeptical URLs as they are posted!

Start using tinyurl.

[apathoid]

And the Leader of the Cult is not above letting people know He's watching them. . . (and now let's whine about the Patriot act - 'cause no one ever passed the GoogleAct, they just did it.

"you having fun out in Chesterfield, St. Louis, Missouri?

later bud." - Dylan Avery

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8551


Can't fault them for editing the links - They know what's good for you.
The irony is like a punch in the face.

BTW - Is it legal to post someones traceroute info without their knowledge?

[gumboot]

yeah, i thought the use of microsoft flight simulator was a pretty novel idea myself but all the examples I saw showed the videos were probably right. Although of course we have no clue about the accuracy of flight sim.



Yeah. The first one done in that link... the aircraft was so blatantly not even on the same approach path...
I mean... it wasn't even close... they're not taking into account the lens focal length... guh...just stupid...

Almost as stupid as the person who used MS Flight Simulator to "prove" the Naudet footage didn't "look" right. Because things look entirely real in Ms Flight Sim... uh huh... just the other day I was playing it and suddenly I THOUGHT IT WAS REAL LIFE.

:rolleyes:

-Andrew

[kevin]

Almost as stupid as the person who used MS Flight Simulator to "prove" the Naudet footage didn't "look" right. Because things look entirely real in Ms Flight Sim... uh huh... just the other day I was playing it and suddenly I THOUGHT IT WAS REAL LIFE.

-Andrew

Reminds me of the Red Dwarf 'Better Than Life' game. heh.

[MarkyX]

The irony is like a punch in the face.

BTW - Is it legal to post someones traceroute info without their knowledge?

I believe so. I can trace people by typing their address on some sites (not hacker sites, normal ones) or using the command box.

It is not that hard.

[apathoid]

yeah, i thought the use of microsoft flight simulator was a pretty novel idea myself but all the examples I saw showed the videos were probably right. Although of course we have no clue about the accuracy of flight sim.

Its fairly accurate, but as you're about to see, its not even close to an exact replica of the real world. I just bought it last week and tried to hit the Empire State Buildings and Pentagon at over 500 mph and had no problems...

I made a video of one the Pentagon runs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSc5V_Bwh8).

[gumboot]

Its fairly accurate, but as you're about to see, its not even close to an exact replica of the real world. I just bought it last week and tried to hit the Empire State Buildings and Pentagon at over 500 mph and had no problems...



MS Flight Sim is proof of CD. If you don't believe me, try ram an airliner into the WTC (I guess you'd need 2001 edition or earlier?). Do they fall down? I don't think so. ;)

-Andrew

[dubfan]

Its fairly accurate, but as you're about to see, its not even close to an exact replica of the real world. I just bought it last week and tried to hit the Empire State Buildings and Pentagon at over 500 mph and had no problems...

I made a video of one the Pentagon runs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSc5V_Bwh8).

Nice work. Just out of curiosity, did you dead reckon your way into DC or did you use the FMS?

(my own opinion is that Hani didn't even need the FMS -- all he had to do was fly an easterly bearing until he intersected the Potomac, and then fly south until he had Reagan National in sight)

[apathoid]

Nice work. Just out of curiosity, did you dead reckon your way into DC or did you use the FMS?

(my own opinion is that Hani didn't even need the FMS -- all he had to do was fly an easterly bearing until he intersected the Potomac, and then fly south until he had Reagan National in sight)

Dead Reckoning. I didnt even touch the autopilot or tune a navaid. The Capitol is quite easy to find flying East from Northern VA/Eastern Ohio.
I agree with you, Hani was probably a decent enough pilot to handfly all the way to the Pentagon. If he wouldve used the FMS, he wouldnt have passed it the first time unless he didnt enter any altitude constraints.

[kevin]

I have the 2004 edition of FS, the century of flight one. I believe it has a 747 available as an option. Not sure if WTC are on the maps still.

Hmm, I wonder what would happen if I flew into the pentagon in the wright flyer?

[realitybites]

Its fairly accurate, but as you're about to see, its not even close to an exact replica of the real world. I just bought it last week and tried to hit the Empire State Buildings and Pentagon at over 500 mph and had no problems...

I made a video of one the Pentagon runs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSc5V_Bwh8).

Eerie s***.

[apathoid]

Eerie s***.
I promise you that was on the first try from Dulles where I actually had to do some naviagtion.
Incidentally, my 300 degree swingaround lasted 2 1/2 minutes, just like AA77s did. The only thing different was the angle I hit it, which was dead on. That stands to reason though, a 777 turns a bit wider than a 757.

[kevin]

I promise you that was on the first try from Dulles where I actually had to do some naviagtion.
Incidentally, my 300 degree swingaround lasted 2 1/2 minutes, just like AA77s did. The only thing different was the angle I hit it, which was dead on. That stands to reason though, a 777 turns a bit wider than a 757.

would've been hilarious if you put a black dot in the middle of the window.

[apathoid]

hey, dumbass. i didn't do it. unlike you i have much better things to do with my time.

Not exactly voicing any objections to the censorship his little disciples have implemented. I'm guessing by the end of the week, any posts from skeptics will contain links to universalseed.org. I'm laying odds at 3:2. Any takers?

[Brainster]

Heh, just saw it. And LondonEye's claim that SLC does the same thing, yet another lie propagated by the TRUTH movement.

I think it's proven by now that any web site or forum or group w/ "truth" in its name is dedicated to spreading lies.

The only time I have removed comments from SLC (the blog; I don't control the forum) is for excessive profanity/abuse (and even there I'll put up with quite a bit), and maybe 5-10 comments which were 50 paragraphs long, off-topic and clearly just cut and pasted from elsewhere. I have never changed a substantive comment that linked to a CT website. I allow BG to thread hijack constantly, mostly because he gives us good ideas for future posts. Heck, we even link to Dylan's crummy video.

BTW, this isn't directed at Wildcat, who clearly knows this. Just wanted to get it on the record.

[Belz...]

I did a quick web search, according to my findings, 4 australian citizens died in the World Trade Center on 9-11.

Billzilla has all the right in the world to talk about the murders of his countrymen.

They have all the right in the world to talk about anything they want, actually, whether or not they lost people from their country.

[Regnad Kcin]

Thermonuclear war breaks out between JDX and an Australian 747 pilot (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&view=findpost&p=6360149)I absolutely LOVE this response to Billzilla, amidst the first-rate info he's been posting there:

I've been reading this forum for a long time and I sit here amazed that I actually learned something valuable here tonight!!Hee-hee.

[dubfan]

Edit: post deleted; was looking at the wrong forum over there.

[JamesB]

The only time I have removed comments from SLC (the blog; I don't control the forum) is for excessive profanity/abuse (and even there I'll put up with quite a bit), and maybe 5-10 comments which were 50 paragraphs long, off-topic and clearly just cut and pasted from elsewhere. I have never changed a substantive comment that linked to a CT website. I allow BG to thread hijack constantly, mostly because he gives us good ideas for future posts. Heck, we even link to Dylan's crummy video.

BTW, this isn't directed at Wildcat, who clearly knows this. Just wanted to get it on the record.

The only ones I have deleted was when insidejob spammed the same overly long rant on about a dozen threads. And that was only after I asked him several times to remove the extras.

I find it amusing that they are complaining that we don't link to their forum. Most of our material is about them. That is all we do is publicize the things they are saying and doing. Why would we prevent people from knowing about their site?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Yeah, I called him on it. "D'oh!"

Or single posters here, not mentioning any names...

I heard that! :-P

[Sword_Of_Truth]

They have all the right in the world to talk about anything they want, actually, whether or not they lost people from their country.

This is also true.

When I went looking for the number of Australians lost I was thinking along the lines of the "Cindy Sheehan" type arguments with JDX in mind. He obviously doesn't accept that freedom of speech is nearly unlimited, hence his death threats against Billzilla (the "second amendment" remarks). I figured if he were to understand that Australians were affected by that days events then maybe he would back off on his "you can't discuss 9-11 unless you agree with me if you're not american" garbage...

...but then this IS Johndoex we're talking about.

BTW, is anyone else bothered that JDX smokes pot 5 times a day AND has firearms?

[WildCat]

I heard that! :-P
:whistling:






j/k

[brumsen]

They actually remind me of terrorist groups myself...almost like gorrilla warfare.
Not sure how gorillas wage war. Or did you mean "guerilla"?

[Abbyas]

I'm guessing the filtering comes from Dylan Avery.

Here he pipes up on the skeptics forum re: gravy's paper:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9154

ah yes, every mainstream article i sourced and eyewitness I used was ********.

brilliant.

don't you guys get tired of being here? you're just wasting your lives.

And then our own realitybites takes the opportunity to pose a question:

I thought the mainstream media was in on it? And why do you only use eyewitnesses that mesh with your story and not the countless others who would disprove it?

[60hzxtl]

Abby you made London Eye surrender:

<<Because PM has some officialdom and could be part of the official cover-up, I have removed that filter...>>


Besides, Dylan has more important things to do! (I hope "learn how to use spell check" is one of them.)

[Grundar]

This is also true.

I figured if he were to understand that Australians were affected by that days events then maybe he would back off on his "you can't discuss 9-11 unless you agree with me if you're not american" garbage...

...but then this IS Johndoex we're talking about.

BTW, is anyone else bothered that JDX smokes pot 5 times a day AND has firearms?

A Conspiracy Theorist would not back off even when threatened with a box-cutter. :D

/Hans

[kevin]

Not sure how gorillas wage war. Or did you mean "guerilla"?

do they fling poo or is that just monkeys? If so then gorilla war is apt.

[tacodaemon]

The irony is like a punch in the face.

BTW - Is it legal to post someones traceroute info without their knowledge?

I'd guess it's legal, although I'm not sure it's really in the spirit of the terms of use that you have to agree to when you sign up for an account on the Loose Change forum:


Please remember that we are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.


They've done a great job enforcing those terms! ;)

[Regnad Kcin]

"I will miss you when you're gone." -- the Fool (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60816)

[Darat]

Sbrown has left the building. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1805573#post1805573)

[T.A.M.]

yah, yah, laugh it up guys, and I'll get my 200 lb Gorilla, to come in there and get you...lol

Thanks for the correction. Spelling not my strong point at times.

Guerilla

there.

http://www.loosechange911.com

There again.

[defaultdotxbe]

The only time I have removed comments from SLC (the blog; I don't control the forum) is for excessive profanity/abuse (and even there I'll put up with quite a bit), and maybe 5-10 comments which were 50 paragraphs long, off-topic and clearly just cut and pasted from elsewhere. I have never changed a substantive comment that linked to a CT website. I allow BG to thread hijack constantly, mostly because he gives us good ideas for future posts. Heck, we even link to Dylan's crummy video.

BTW, this isn't directed at Wildcat, who clearly knows this. Just wanted to get it on the record.

and i'd liek to go on record sayign the only posts ive removed from the SLC forums were non-relevant spam (links to porn sites or other scams, and a few attepted board exploits and things of that nature)


oh yeah....and hi, i just regged here :)

[60hzxtl]

Welcome to the party,


defaultdotxbe

[T.A.M.]

yah, welcome defaultdotxbe

[Brainster]

Last night's broadcast of Alex Jones' freak show and the one this afternoon have resulted in a big increase in Google searches for Loose Change and related 9-11 info that is showing up in our referring logs at SLC. We're already on 950 hits for the day; that's about 100 more visitors than we got last Sunday for the entire day. That's the good news; the bad news is that if we're getting hundreds of new visitors, Dylan's getting thousands (we're still "only" #7 on Google for "Loose Change").

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Last night's broadcast of Alex Jones' freak show and the one this afternoon have resulted in a big increase in Google searches for Loose Change and related 9-11 info that is showing up in our referring logs at SLC. We're already on 950 hits for the day; that's about 100 more visitors than we got last Sunday for the entire day. That's the good news; the bad news is that if we're getting hundreds of new visitors, Dylan's getting thousands (we're still "only" #7 on Google for "Loose Change").

What does it take to organize a google-bombing campaign?

[T.A.M.]

Yes, It seems we will have to increase our own publicity...somehow.

On the other hand, I am hopeful, that many who go there and watch the movie, will have the sense to check things out for themselves...hopefully.

[negativ]

I'm starting to see the 9/11 CT crap gain a foothold in more and more of the internet forums I read which are populated by otherwise intelligent and reasonable people. I evidently haven't spammed this forum enough to earn the right to post links, but this stuff is showing up in some really disappointing places.

I'm STILL waiting for the Subgenius Foundation to send me the schematics to build my escape vessel. Time's a-wasting!

[apathoid]

yah, yah, laugh it up guys, and I'll get my 200 lb Gorilla, to come in there and get you...lol

Thanks for the correction. Spelling not my strong point at times.

Guerilla

There again.
No worries, Martin Short made the same mistake in Captain Ron. :D

[apathoid]

I'm starting to see the 9/11 CT crap gain a foothold in more and more of the internet forums I read which are populated by otherwise intelligent and reasonable people. I evidently haven't spammed this forum enough to earn the right to post links, but this stuff is showing up in some really disappointing places.

I'm STILL waiting for the Subgenius Foundation to send me the schematics to build my escape vessel. Time's a-wasting!

I agree its very disheartening, there is almost no escaping it. If this CT crapola starts appearing on any of my football season bookmarks, I'm going to declare an all out war on the Denial movement....I'll turn myself into a spambot if I have to.

[T.A.M.]

Still with the insults (comparing me to M.S.)...lol...my gorilla is getting real anxious. I might have to let him loose on you.

[Brainster]

What does it take to organize a google-bombing campaign?

:)

That's why we're #7. We're on a large alliance blogroll that links us with the words "Screw Loose Change". According to TTLB, we've got 150 inbound links; I don't know how much we can up our Google Rating even by doubling that, and it would be quite a bit of work.

[Brainster]

I'm starting to see the 9/11 CT crap gain a foothold in more and more of the internet forums I read which are populated by otherwise intelligent and reasonable people. I evidently haven't spammed this forum enough to earn the right to post links, but this stuff is showing up in some really disappointing places.

I'm STILL waiting for the Subgenius Foundation to send me the schematics to build my escape vessel. Time's a-wasting!

Be sure to note the existence of Gravy's debunking and Screw Loose Change (movie, forum and blog). We've gotten an amazing amount of traffic from forum members tired of the Loosers spamming their boards.

Welcome Default.xbe & Negativ!

[MarkyX]

Another request kids..

Any interviews where Alex Jones says the war on terror is a racial one?

[jhunter1163]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/300306raceriots.htm

Not exactly what you're looking for I know, but he does say that internment camps are being prepared for illegals by Halliburton subsidiaries. (they're not, it's a contingency contract.) He really makes painting him as a fool TOO easy.

[MarkyX]

Ah, well I need something related to 9/11, not based on Alex jones "Immigration is GUMBERMENT PLOT" ploy.

I have a really nice clip that will go well with the theme of "America is attacking Arabs when they did nothing wrong"

[T.A.M.]

I have recently begun a blog of my own. I did it mainly to have a place to deposit all that I find related to 9/11...real evidence. If any of you wish, please feel free to drop over and comment, or suggest things.

The more that is out there, the more we can do to keep the deniers honest.

911 - You Judge Blog (http://911yj.blogspot.com/)

[Brainster]

I have recently begun a blog of my own. I did it mainly to have a place to deposit all that I find related to 9/11...real evidence. If any of you wish, please feel free to drop over and comment, or suggest things.

The more that is out there, the more we can do to keep the deniers honest.

911 - You Judge Blog (http://911yj.blogspot.com/)

Welcome to the living dead!

I've added you to our blogroll. Arkan, I recall you started a blog, what's the URL so I can add you too?

[Gravy]

Interview woth OBL's former bodyguard on 60 Minutes tonight.

(Also, a story on how politicians are rewriting the conclusions of scientists.)

ETA: Both stories are re-runs.

[Johnny C.]

ROTFLMAO I am watching CSPAN, Alex Jones is claiming we had 44,000 US troops in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan before 9/11 in order to invade Afghanistan. That is equal to nearly 3 divisions, out of the 11 on active duty. Amazing nobody noticed. Why is it then when we invaded Afghanistan we only used a small amount of Special Forces, and even then it took over a month before they began?

Lol, good point.

The war in Afghanistan was a joke. We hit less than 100 targets in over 1 week of air bombings. Most of the targets werent even damaged over 50% so we had to bomb the same 100 buildings twice. Boots on the ground didnt happen for weeks. The largest influence in the war was one CIA agent, Gary (I dont know his last name, thats probably not even his first) carrying millions of dollars and paying of warlords to abandon the Taliban.

Bush at War by Bob Woodward is a facinating book covering the first 100 days of the war in Afghanistan.

[apathoid]

Still with the insults (comparing me to M.S.)...lol...my gorilla is getting real anxious. I might have to let him loose on you.

Hey, I could've also connected some dots through Canada, but I didnt need to point out the obvious (oops I guess I just did ;) )

j/k

[T.A.M.]

Thanks for the add Brainster.

Keep'em coming Apathoid...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Welcome to the living dead!

I've added you to our blogroll. Arkan, I recall you started a blog, what's the URL so I can add you too?

Crap, that's right; I took it out of my sigline. Here it is: http://arkanwolfshade.spaces.msn.com/

[T.A.M.]

just added you to my blog wolf.

This is the best way to fight the onslaught that will now occur with the C-Span presentation.

Those who watched need to know the "REAL TRUTH" is out there. Keep spreading the web.

[realitybites]

Sbrown has left the building. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1805573#post1805573)
And can currently be seen hamming up the role of Martyr (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9199) over at LC.

[kookbreaker]

And can currently be seen hamming up the role of Martyr (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9199) over at LC.

Pheh, and now he's whining that there is not specific rule about posting things multiple times. Like any message board gives specific numbers about how many posts of the same thing make spam. Especially when it is the second offense, the first being off the deep end.

The loosers seem a bit slow coming to his defense. I'd have expected much more blind defense from them than what I've seen.

[MarkyX]

I heard some rumors about Charlie sheen apologizing to arabs..

If I can just find this one last thing, my video will be complete.

[T.A.M.]

They are beyond convincing, so why does anyone here even bother. I haven't even bothered to join the LC forum at anytime, because I know (1) They cannot be convinced of anything but the "truth" mantra, and (2) If I for some reason tried to convince them, I'd be banned instantly.

I am just gonna focus my time on researching, and postsing what I find, and hope that when joe public does a search for 911 REAL TRUTH, he will find the stuff I have collected, and read it for his/herself.

[kevin]

Ah Ha! This is how it was done. Not just termite, but termite plus liquid nitrogen! So simple....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yex063_Fblk&search=Thermite%20and%20liquid%20nitrogen

[hellaeon]

They want this to be true, its a belief system and wont be swayed no matter what. They believe it to be true, thus it is. They believe any small notion, incorrect and distorted, and believe it fundamentally.

It actually saddens me to see people believe in TV and movies that much. Its so far removed from reality.

They practice all that they preach, the whole NWO thing, by changing posts and banning opposing facts and opinions. They live in the same distorted reality they proclaim to be trying to save us from.

Its easy to show how ridiculous there 'evidence' is yet they wont listen. Most of of it can be just swayed by common sense - and thats what scares me. They lack even simple basic reality based common sense. Simple things like gravity, inertia, damn primary school science! They live in an era of science and still resort to mob rule. Are they that secluded? Have they spent so long locked in the same routine that the world outside only exists through TV and the net??? I swear a lot of the reason behind their beliefs is not just idiocy, but some weird attention they thrive on knowing this 'secret' knowledge that is all just completely wrong. The fact that people like dylan avery are still alive is immediate proof its all just fringe lunacy. Glory hounds. All looking for their 15 minutes of fame. The rebel leaders! Anarchy!

Even if something unfortunate happened like a car accident or something to him or alex jones, it would take all of 2 minutes for the government to get blamed since "Avery and co are close to the truth!"

Dealing with them is a lesson in patience and anger management.

[JamesB]

Lol, good point.

The war in Afghanistan was a joke. We hit less than 100 targets in over 1 week of air bombings. Most of the targets werent even damaged over 50% so we had to bomb the same 100 buildings twice. Boots on the ground didnt happen for weeks. The largest influence in the war was one CIA agent, Gary (I dont know his last name, thats probably not even his first) carrying millions of dollars and paying of warlords to abandon the Taliban.

Bush at War by Bob Woodward is a facinating book covering the first 100 days of the war in Afghanistan.

I wouldn't say it was a joke. It is a landlocked country in a remote region, it took a while to get troops there. Once we were able to get them in theater, we were able to do incredible things with only a few hundred men on the ground. Bombing people from 20,000 feat doesn't work, unless you have someone on the ground telling you what you should be bombing.

De Oppresso Liber

[Brainster]

I heard some rumors about Charlie sheen apologizing to arabs..

If I can just find this one last thing, my video will be complete.

It's not in his speech at the LA Symposium....

Checking the interview with Alex Jones... nope.

[negativ]

From <some other forum I like>:

And, yeah, Professor Steven Jones managed to convince me that the buildings were triggered with explosives, and that was the reason they fell. I guess there's only one question left to answer, huh? Who did it? And why?

I wish I could say that the person who wrote the above is an unthinking idiot. The fact is, I know he's not. I am reminded of Shermer's chapter on "Why Smart People Believe Weird Things", but I simply don't have the pedigree to convince him otherwise.

Maybe it's because I agree so strongly with Sam Harris' thoughts on religion -- Islam in particular -- that I feel so strongly about this. I am perfectly willing to ignore my friends' beliefs in astrology, psychics, bigfoot, UFOs-as-ETs, et al, because I think that all those are ultimately harmless. According to my worldview, there's entirely too little critical attention being paid to the heavily armed, well funded, and allegedly world's fastest growing death-cult that is Islam.

This CT bullshtz evokes in me senses of sadness, anger, frustration, and futility, each of which compete vigorously among themselves to see which one I'll feel most strongly when the topic comes up in the workplace or on-line.

Grr. Never mind.

[Brainster]

Its easy to show how ridiculous there 'evidence' is yet they wont listen. Most of of it can be just swayed by common sense - and thats what scares me. They lack even simple basic reality based common sense. Simple things like gravity, inertia, damn primary school science! They live in an era of science and still resort to mob rule.

Remember, their premise is the purported conclusion that they have "reluctantly" (as Professor Jones put it) come to accept--that Bush/Cheney did it. This becomes their way of testing evidence--if it comports to the conspiracy as they believe it, then it's evidence of the conspiracy. If it does not, then it's evidence of the coverup.

If we could design a Tardis that would go back in space and time to Flight 11 out of Boston and we showed the CT crowd Atta and his thugs forcing their way into the cockpit, they would say, "Amazing. How did Bush and Cheney manage to get these men under their control? Must be hypnotic mind-rays! Isn't this grand--we've proven that Nico and Killtown and the Web Fairy are all wet!"

[Gravy]

A JREfer was good enough to point out to me that I don't know who I am.

Posted by Dylan Avery on LC Forum
Mark Roberts looks like Robert DeNiro. and he often travels with a fat guy in a business suit, who just stands and talks on his cell phone.

"Mr. Roberts" (which is not his real name) seems like a good man, almost as if he's doing something he doesn't want to be doing...

but alas, he has a job to do. i can't blame him.
Although I have had many meetings with fat guys in business suits (I used to be a conventional desk jockey), if I ever traveled with one, it was long ago.

That much I know.

What I don't know is who I am. Since Avery does know, I implore him to tell me. I promise that if he reveals my true identity, I will stop this contentious nonsense and devote all my free time to promoting his work.

Can someone post this over there? (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9176)

[brumsen]

According to my worldview, there's entirely too little critical attention being paid to the heavily armed, well funded, and allegedly world's fastest growing death-cult that is Islam.
Moving a tad too fast there, perhaps?
Let me just go on record saying that I disagree with you about "the nature of islam".
And, perhaps more importantly, that "CT ********" does not preclude critical attention to islam, IMO. If anything, it is more likely to make it possible, by moving the debate beyond "those muslims are obviously bad guys that we have to wage war against, just look at what they did to our Towers!"

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Moving a tad too fast there, perhaps?
Let me just go on record saying that I disagree with you about "the nature of islam".
And, perhaps more importantly, that "CT ********" does not preclude critical attention to islam, IMO. If anything, it is more likely to make it possible, by moving the debate beyond "those muslims are obviously bad guys that we have to wage war against, just look at what they did to our Towers!"

That's absurd.

Conspiracist bilge regarding 9-11 can no more aid us in understanding and dealing with extremist islam than holocaust denial can help us understand anti-semitism.

[Gravy]

That's absurd.

Conspiracist bilge regarding 9-11 can no more aid us in understanding and dealing with extremist islam than holocaust denial can help us understand anti-semitism.
I agree, but I don't think calling all of Islam a "death cult" is accurate or helpful either.

[MarkyX]

No one is calling Islam a 'death cult'.

We are calling Islamic EXTREMINISTS a 'death cult'

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=obsession&hl=en

This documentary involves an ex-terrorist, ex-hitler youth, a palestine journalist, an editor of a pakistan magazine and a daughter of a martyr supporting the idea that "very pissed off Muslms" do dislike the West and our way of life. You see, unlike Loose Change, this documentary has credible people who live and breathe the subject.

[Hutch]

Can someone post this over there? (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9176)

well, charliebean beat me to it, Gravy, but it is over there.

Obviously, Mr. Avery will claim that he was 'jesting' and that he was 'poking fun using the cheney picture', that is if he deigns to post at all.

[gumboot]

No one is calling Islam a 'death cult'.

We are calling Islamic EXTREMINISTS a 'death cult'


Do you have much research regarding the supposed Muslim Brotherhood document "The Project (http://www.aina.org/news/20060511113048.htm)"?

It's very much in the vein of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, so there's every chance of it being a fake, but interested in looking into it a bit more. A few things about its alleged discovery suggest it is more authentic than the Protocols.

The site I have linked actually has a translation of the entire alleged document which should be an interesting read.

-Andrew

[chipmunk stew]

As someone who is a citizen of the USA and a serial voter to boot, the idea that JDX votes scares the bejabbers out of me.
Not to worry. He either doesn't vote, or he votes for hopeless candidates. Not a threat at all.

The thought that someone who has so little grasp of reasoning based on evidence and such a tendency to cling to a conclusion irrespective of evidence could wind up serving on a jury is also rather unsettling.
:eek: Now this, on the other hand, is a terrifying thought. But this is exactly the reason we have voir dire.

[chipmunk stew]

The irony is like a punch in the face.

BTW - Is it legal to post someones traceroute info without their knowledge?
It's probably against invision's rules, at the very least.

[MarkyX]

Okay, making my final draft of my video.

Anyone who wants to give feedback Private Message me. It's around 50 minutes.

[Abbyas]

Mark Roberts looks like Robert DeNiro. and he often travels with a fat guy in a business suit, who just stands and talks on his cell phone.

How many times has he met you?

The internet is amazing, bs travels so fast. Wonder where he got this info.

I can understand, though. Here is a picture I took at GZ when Gravy showed truthers some pamphlets and a towel that had caught on fire

http://www.gonemovies.com/www/TopFilms/Godfather/GodfatherVitoJong_sm.jpg

[realitybites]

How many times has he met you?

The internet is amazing, bs travels so fast. Wonder where he got this info.

I can understand, though. Here is a picture I took at GZ when Gravy showed truthers some pamphlets and a towel that had caught on fire

http://www.gonemovies.com/www/TopFilms/Godfather/GodfatherVitoJong_sm.jpg
Is that a still from your upcoming documentary? :cool:

[Matthew Best]

No one is calling Islam a 'death cult'.

I think negativ just did. Perhaps he didn't mean to?

[gumboot]

Here is a picture I took at GZ when Gravy showed truthers some pamphlets and a towel that had caught on fire


Why did a towel catch on fire?

-Andrew

[60hzxtl]

Why does the LC cult get to make the rules?

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/07/bombs-in-building-no-never.html

Something dawned on me when I read that.

Why let Dylan Avery & Co. make the rules?

Time after time, up to and including the above link from just a few days ago, we've watched Loose Change latch on to a preliminary report, and take this as the final and absolute word, as definitive “evidence”. Nothing can be updated - even if the 'still alive' hijackers are really really dead.

Five years after the atrocity, many of his disciples, many of whom were in HIGH SCHOOL or YOUNGER have no clue that this was at best a very confusing day, to those of us who covered this. The 'adults' there have no clue as to the scale of the site.

Dylan gets to revise, and tweak his conspiracy, each time. He is making the rules. He can believe in the “Pods” and then dump it. He can believe the Queens gas tanks as a rehearsal demolition then dump it. Likewise the trucks full of gold and the “explosions.” (Hey Dylan, what did that gold weigh?)

If he can present statements from reporters who had limited knowledge, from a small vantage point, with compromised communication (lots of cell phones were out - WTC had many cells - and the jam of calls made for busy signals or no signal at all that day ) but conveyed what they thought or heard, as the proof of conspiracy, then Dylan and the Loose Change mob have to live with his first presentation, not his third time at bat.


From the blabbering over there, it sounds like LC-Final Cut, or Louder than Words, or what ever he changes it to, will include many more original interviews, (you don't get sued if it's your footage!) With the likes of Willy Rodriguez, who will describe “explosions” without having seen explosions - a little reminder here - the Firemen described the sound of bodies of those who jumped, hitting the ground as <I> “sounding like explosions” </I> You just don't hear “it sounded like a floor collapsing in a skyscraper to me!”

No “Do overs for Dylan and Co.” He can't make the rules. He can't be allowed to revise, and discard, and refuse to see that the19 hijackers are dead, and died on a suicide mission.

Loose Change “final” cut will be Dylan's Caper movie, a music video of an atrocity. He has to be judged by his first cartoon, not burst on the scene with the latest and greatest without background.

[realitybites]

Why did a towel catch on fire?

-Andrew
Thermite dude.... C'mon.

Try thinkin' outside the box.

:)

[Abbyas]

Is that a still from your upcoming documentary?

I tell you, after dealing with this editing business, I applaud MarkyX to no end.

I'm only trying to put together a funny 10 min and have to wade through mounds of no-planer crap and my camerman's affinity for shooting women's rears when he gets bored.

[Abbyas]

Double post, doh!

[realitybites]

I tell you, after dealing with this editing business, I applaud MarkyX to no end.

I'm only trying to put together a funny 10 min and have to wade through mounds of no-planer crap and my camerman's affinity for shooting women's rears when he gets bored.
C'mon now! The no-planer crap's gotta have some good stuff. And while the good-natured human in me would rather not see you exploit the footage of the guy with his shirt on inside out, the a**hole in me wants to see it turned into a feature length film.

[brumsen]

That's absurd.

Conspiracist bilge regarding 9-11 can no more aid us in understanding and dealing with extremist islam than holocaust denial can help us understand anti-semitism.
Well ok then. No conspiracist bilge by itself, either of the official or alternative brand, will aid us in understanding islamist extremism. However what you call CT b*** is useful in suggesting a different story and thereby relativize the islam enemy picture that is painted with broad brushstrokes in the government version. What I wanted to say is that such relativization is more likely than not helpful in critical examination of islamist extremism.

[kevin]

my camerman's affinity for shooting women's rears when he gets bored.

will those shots be available in the "making of..." version?

[c0rbin]

Why does the LC cult get to make the rules?

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/07/bombs-in-building-no-never.html

Something dawned on me when I read that.

Why let Dylan Avery & Co. make the rules?

Time after time, up to and including the above link from just a few days ago, we've watched Loose Change latch on to a preliminary report, and take this as the final and absolute word, as definitive “evidence”. Nothing can be updated - even if the 'still alive' hijackers are really really dead.

Five years after the atrocity, many of his disciples, many of whom were in HIGH SCHOOL or YOUNGER have no clue that this was at best a very confusing day, to those of us who covered this. The 'adults' there have no clue as to the scale of the site.

Dylan gets to revise, and tweak his conspiracy, each time. He is making the rules. He can believe in the “Pods” and then dump it. He can believe the Queens gas tanks as a rehearsal demolition then dump it. Likewise the trucks full of gold and the “explosions.” (Hey Dylan, what did that gold weigh?)

If he can present statements from reporters who had limited knowledge, from a small vantage point, with compromised communication (lots of cell phones were out - WTC had many cells - and the jam of calls made for busy signals or no signal at all that day ) but conveyed what they thought or heard, as the proof of conspiracy, then Dylan and the Loose Change mob have to live with his first presentation, not his third time at bat.


From the blabbering over there, it sounds like LC-Final Cut, or Louder than Words, or what ever he changes it to, will include many more original interviews, (you don't get sued if it's your footage!) With the likes of Willy Rodriguez, who will describe “explosions” without having seen explosions - a little reminder here - the Firemen described the sound of bodies of those who jumped, hitting the ground as <I> “sounding like explosions” </I> You just don't hear “it sounded like a floor collapsing in a skyscraper to me!”

No “Do overs for Dylan and Co.” He can't make the rules. He can't be allowed to revise, and discard, and refuse to see that the19 hijackers are dead, and died on a suicide mission.

Loose Change “final” cut will be Dylan's Caper movie, a music video of an atrocity. He has to be judged by his first cartoon, not burst on the scene with the latest and greatest without background.

Good points all around. It seems to me that the record of his meandering path to the trooth lives in the early versions of Loose Change.

Archive them and keep them handy.

[Stellafane]

They want this to be true, its a belief system and wont be swayed no matter what. They believe it to be true, thus it is. They believe any small notion, incorrect and distorted, and believe it fundamentally.

It actually saddens me to see people believe in TV and movies that much. Its so far removed from reality.

They practice all that they preach, the whole NWO thing, by changing posts and banning opposing facts and opinions. They live in the same distorted reality they proclaim to be trying to save us from.

Its easy to show how ridiculous there 'evidence' is yet they wont listen. Most of of it can be just swayed by common sense - and thats what scares me. They lack even simple basic reality based common sense. Simple things like gravity, inertia, damn primary school science! They live in an era of science and still resort to mob rule. Are they that secluded? Have they spent so long locked in the same routine that the world outside only exists through TV and the net??? I swear a lot of the reason behind their beliefs is not just idiocy, but some weird attention they thrive on knowing this 'secret' knowledge that is all just completely wrong. The fact that people like dylan avery are still alive is immediate proof its all just fringe lunacy. Glory hounds. All looking for their 15 minutes of fame. The rebel leaders! Anarchy!

Even if something unfortunate happened like a car accident or something to him or alex jones, it would take all of 2 minutes for the government to get blamed since "Avery and co are close to the truth!"

Dealing with them is a lesson in patience and anger management.

Basically, for a CT'er the world is a binary proposition. If you agree with them, no evidence is necessary. If you disagree, no evidence is enough.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Basically, for a CT'er the world is a binary proposition. If you agree with them, no evidence is necessary. If you disagree, no evidence is enough.

Confirmation bias at its worst.

[milesalpha]

Well ok then. No conspiracist bilge by itself, either of the official or alternative brand, will aid us in understanding islamist extremism. However what you call CT b*** is useful in suggesting a different story and thereby relativize the islam enemy picture that is painted with broad brushstrokes in the government version. What I wanted to say is that such relativization is more likely than not helpful in critical examination of islamist extremism.

I would argue quite the reverse. The time that political scientists and historians have to waste dispelling the notions raised by the 9/11 CTs takes away from the time that could be spent on direct critique of the Bush administration's actions. There has been quite a bit of critical examination on Middle Eastern history, just don't expect the general public to read it. It won't be found on a blog or American Idol.

Ok, turning cynic switch off and going back to happyland.

[Shrinker]

It's probably against invision's rules, at the very least.
It is indeed.

http://invisionfree.com/report.php?p=1&typ=9


The following is a list of some information that is considered private and is not allowed to be posted without the permission of the individual:
> Complete name
> IP address
> Email address
> Phone number
> Home or business address
> Social Security number
> Credit Card number
> Pictures of the individual

[Stellafane]

...However what you call CT b*** is useful in suggesting a different story and thereby relativize the islam enemy picture that is painted with broad brushstrokes in the government version...

That's total nonsense. Inventing lies is not useful for anything. And the "official" version of 9/11 does not demonize Islam; it simply correctly points out that 9/11 was carried out by a group of individuals who described themselves as defenders of Islam, and thus could be referred to as Islamic extremists.

[apathoid]

It is indeed.

http://invisionfree.com/report.php?p=1&typ=9

Thanks Shrinker, I filled out the report form. Maybe others should do that as well, in case invision doesnt act until multiple reports are filed.

(BTW - cute avatar :) )

[kookbreaker]

Thanks Shrinker, I filled out the report form. Maybe others should do that as well, in case invision doesnt act until multiple reports are filed.

(BTW - cute avatar :) )

Did Dylan actually post any of those? I thought he just mentioned the city the guy was from. Not that that wasn't incredibly weasly of him, but it may not have been against the rules.

[apathoid]

Did Dylan actually post any of those? I thought he just mentioned the city the guy was from. Not that that wasn't incredibly weasly of him, but it may not have been against the rules.
Yep, dylan posted the IP as well as Supermod chicksheen..

[Shrinker]

Did Dylan actually post any of those? I thought he just mentioned the city the guy was from. Not that that wasn't incredibly weasly of him, but it may not have been against the rules.

Idiotboy Avery posted the IP, chucksheen posted the traceroute. Silly little kids. This has happened before I think but I can't find it now.

[kookbreaker]

Carry on, then.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Idiotboy Avery posted the IP, chucksheen posted the traceroute. Silly little kids. This has happened before I think but I can't find it now.

I reported them to Invision as a violation of the ToS (under the IP) clause.

ETA: Roxdog's retort to my posting of the screenshot of the report page: "Lame ass snitch."

ETA: Well, that was roughly equivalent to taking a weedwacker to a hornet's nest. I'm expecting my time there to be short.

[pgwenthold]

I wonder, is johndoex naturally an ass, or does he stay up late at night practicing?

When he brought up the beard thing, it became very clear that he's not anythng close to being a pilot, or even part of the airline industry. I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

[chipmunk stew]

Idiotboy Avery posted the IP, chucksheen posted the traceroute. Silly little kids. This has happened before I think but I can't find it now.
It definitely has. I remember one of the mods posted the IP info of someone posting from a business in DC, drawing the inference that he worked for the gov't.

[Abbyas]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9176

The pictures have been removed.

[apathoid]

The pictures have been removed.
I love the follow up replies to yours. "But, but...the pictures were already on the internet. Its okay to post them without permission..." :rolleyes:
I hope they have a better explanation for posting IPs

[Abbyas]

I hope they have a better explanation for posting IPs

Was that in the same thread? I can't find it.

[apathoid]

Was that in the same thread? I can't find it.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8551
I expect that Dylans and Chuckseeds posts will be edited soon..

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8551
I expect that Dylans and Chuckseeds posts will be edited soon..

I already took screenshots of the posts for historical purposes.

[Abbyas]

Should I not comment and hope that invisionfree does something?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Should I not comment and hope that invisionfree does something?


Could have reported it to us first....


PLEASE NO-ONE POST IP ADDRESSES

ALL IP's REMOVED !!!!


All the best

LondonEye


Probably too late to submit a report now.

[kookbreaker]

LondonEye wants you to report it to 'them' first, when:

1) The Admins, the highest ranking members of the forum, were the offenders. Including the leader of your cult.
2) They've shown such a tendency to be even handed in the past (heavy sarcasm OFF)
3) Their first reaction of the rankers to the report is that the ones who made the complaint are 'snitches'.

Gee, LondonEye, I can't possibly imagine why anyone would want to go above your head.

[Hutch]

Just about the time I think the tank has reached full on the Wierd Meter, we get this one: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9217

I wonder where I'm going to spend all that money at.

I bet Nigerians are involved...

[juryjone]

However what you call CT b*** is useful in suggesting a different story and thereby relativize the islam enemy picture that is painted with broad brushstrokes in the government version.

I'm with Stellafane in wanting to know your reasoning behind this statement. I realize I haven't gone through the NIST report word for word, but in skimming through it I don't find anything that would, even "with broad brushstrokes", say that the government believes Islam is the enemy. Extremists, yes, but you don't see extremists of any stripe saying "Let's sit down and work this thing out." Extremists do things like...well, what they did.

Also, by "with broad brushtrokes" do you mean "in so many words"? In other words, are you saying that the reports don't say Islam is the enemy explicitly, but rather implies it? If so, you'd really have to come up with a lot of verbiage to justify the implication...

[MarkyX]

Not sure if this is viable evidence, but..

Microsoft Flight Simulator - Pentagon Crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSc5V_Bwh8

...Hani was one crazy pilot if this simulator is accurate.

[Hutch]

Just spent about a half-hour doing some addition and posted this thread over there.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9263

Just got tired of them bragging on how important and powerful and wonderful the LC Forum was, when in Forum size it is a pip-squeak (for that matter, the JREF isn't a mega-Forum, we're like the Sun, a moderatley sized, nothing special Forum).

We'll see how they react to being relegated to the lower divisions...I predict much chest-beating and denial.

[Abbyas]

Not sure if this is viable evidence, but..

Microsoft Flight Simulator - Pentagon Crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSc5V_Bwh8

...Hani was one crazy pilot if this simulator is accurate.

Wow.

Who put this together?

[kevin]

we're like the Sun

A mass of incandescent gas?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Wow.

Who put this together?

That was apathoids work, he put it together in response to spooked911's challenge that you couldn't hit a large building on the first try in MS Flight Sim.

[Abbyas]

That was apathoids work, he put it together in response to spooked911's challenge that you couldn't hit a large building on the first try in MS Flight Sim.

And may I assume that apathoid is not a pilot?

[apathoid]

And may I assume that apathoid is not a pilot?
Nope, not a pilot...and I did that on my very first night playing with MSFS.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

And may I assume that apathoid is not a pilot?

He is, actually.

Here's the original SLC thread: http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=99

More of him talking about deeply technical pilot stuff (showing more knowledge of aviation in a single sentence that all 812,000 of JDX's LC posts): http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=60

And for pure comic relief, here's my own flight-sim test thread: http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=106

EDIT: Damn, I thought Apathoid was a piliot.

He still knows a gajillion times more than JDX though. :p

[Abbyas]

EDIT: Damn, I thought Apathoid was a piliot.

It's much better in this case if he isn't.

Go, apathoid.

[realitybites]

EDIT: Damn, I thought Apathoid was a piliot.

He still knows a gajillion times more than JDX though. :p
My dog knows 'sit', 'down', 'stay', and 'rollover'. He too knows a gajillion times more than JDX.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

It's much better in this case if he isn't.

Go, apathoid.

JDX ain't one either, so it all evens out. :p

[apathoid]

He is, actually.

Here's the original SLC thread: http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=99

More of him talking about deeply technical pilot stuff (showing more knowledge of aviation in a single sentence that all 812,000 of JDX's LC posts): http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=60

And for pure comic relief, here's my own flight-sim test thread: http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=106

EDIT: Damn, I thought Apathoid was a piliot.

He still knows a gajillion times more than JDX though. :p

I spent 3 years overhauling 767s, I know those airplanes pretty well. As far as the post you linked; I'm a little disappointed because Russ hasnt gotten back to me.
I have pages and pages of schematics, wiring diagrams, and maintenace manual excerpts ready to scan and post in rebuttal to whatever he might offer.

[Abbyas]

I have pages and pages of schematics, wiring diagrams, and maintenace manual excerpts ready to scan and post in rebuttal to whatever he might offer.

Please do, because he's now saying it doesn't matter because the simulator doesn't account for real forces that happen in actual flights.

[apathoid]

Please do, because he's now saying it doesn't matter because the simulator doesn't account for real forces that happen in actual flights.

Abby, I was talking about Russ Pickering and his drone 757, not JDX. I think Billzilla is waaaaay more qualified than I am to to talk about pilot stuff like "ground effect"
I could probably find something on the 757 flight control software, but I dont think JDx would listen anyways....

At least they're consitent, if not predictable.

[MarkyX]

Who wants a group hug?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3143048862360929736

Penn and Teller on Conspriacy Theories!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I want my badge:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php

Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

The error returned was:

Sorry, you are not permitted to use this board


No warning. No email saying why.

ETA: Nice, appears to be an IP ban too. Wonder if anyone else from my employer is getting blocked (don't know if anyone visits pro or con, this isn't a subject I've discussed with many at my place of employment)

[Abbyas]

Abby, I was talking about Russ Pickering and his drone 757, not JDX. I think Billzilla is waaaaay more qualified than I am to to talk about pilot stuff like "ground effect"
I could probably find something on the 757 flight control software, but I dont think JDx would listen anyways....

At least they're consitent, if not predictable.

Thanks, A.

I hate everybody.

[MarkyX]

I sent Chipmunk and Brainaic for my new video. I have it uploaded if anyone wants.

[mrfreeze]

Can you drop me a copy? I'm always interested in seeing more of your work.

[T.A.M.]

ya I'd like to see it as well. I've been debating doing one of my own as well, more of a factual based rebuttal to the most common 9/11 myths.

any chance you can get it posted somewhere we can download it??

[MarkyX]

I have it uploaded, but I want feedback first before I submit it to the masses like YouTube and so forth.

[realitybites]

I need a badge.

The error returned was:

Sorry, you are not permitted to use this board
They must be cleaning house over there....

[Hutch]

Hmmm, I knew Arkan was going to go, I won't know until tomorrow if they think I have crossed the line....

[realitybites]

Hmmm, I knew Arkan was going to go, I won't know until tomorrow if they think I have crossed the line....
Mine seemed to come out of nowhere. I didn't really post that much over there today. My warning level had been at 100% for weeks, but no reason was ever given as to why.

At least when I got warned here, I got a nice email from Darat I think it was.

[T.A.M.]

It is the ultimate in hypocritical behaviour. Here we have a forum for a movie that criticizes the government of censorship, mind control, fear mongering, and police state creation, and yet now the monitors of the site are doing that very same thing. They are rounding up the names of those on the board that do not comply with the beliefs of the forum and the movie for which it was built, and then banishing them from the forum.

Sounds a bit like Hitler and his gang if you ask me.

Are Arkan, Hutch, and the crowd to be the Jews of the Loose Change Hollocaust.

Whats next, they start to spam your blogs and sites into oblivion.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Mine seemed to come out of nowhere. I didn't really post that much over there today. My warning level had been at 100% for weeks, but no reason was ever given as to why.

At least when I got warned here, I got a nice email from Darat I think it was.

I had no warning level. I'm pretty sure it was my reporting them to Invisionfree and posting the SS that did it. Oh well. As much as they like to think they're in a fantasy world, they're not and people won't let them get away with breaking rules/laws just because they want to do so.

[Hutch]

What are the most popular forums? How big is the biggest one?

Well, this site seems to indicate some mega-forums http://www.big-boards.com/ exist out there, depending on the topic.

IN the skeptic/atheist world, Internet Infidels (www.idb.org/vbb/index.php) has about three times the membership of JREF and the Bad-Astronomy-Universe Today (BAUT) has nearly 14,000 members.

But compared to other 'skeptic' sites (Skeptical Community, Skeptics.com. mu.nu, skepchicks, et. al.) I think the JREF is the largest of this particular subset.

Edited to add: according to that Big Board site, Randi.org ranks #1403 (out of over 1700) boards in terms of members, but climbs up to #594 in terms of total posts--so I guess we are a chatty bunch..

[MarkyX]

We should start a Paltalk chat.

[T.A.M.]

I agree on the paltalk thing.

[Hawk one]

There's already a Paltalk room called Room for Skeptics, which is usually open in the American evening. I think it's in the miscallenous section, but not sure (their sections are often a mess, to put it bluntly). You can always pop in there at first, and then see if you want to create a 11.09.-specific room with a skeptic angle afterwards.

[Gravy]

What are the most popular forums? How big is the biggest one?
Go away, Jenabell.

[Brainster]

Anybody want to split up the task of reviewing them (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html) for ammunition? There are over 1,000 pieces and some of them are quite large.

[realitybites]

Anybody want to split up the task of reviewing them (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html) for ammunition? There are over 1,000 pieces and some of them are quite large.
I'm can't be sure 'cause I didn't go through piece for piece, but it seems like most of the stuff there was already released.

[T.A.M.]

I have already reviewed the CVR transcript, and have used it to refute Fetzers claim that it is fake. He claims this, because he says the recording contains the voices of the vicitms planning to run the cart into the cabin door. In fact, this is an outright lie. None of the transcript (a legal document) states any of the voices indicating a plan to run the cart into the cabin door.

[T.A.M.]

attempts to download any of it ends in error...not a good sign.

[T.A.M.]

I am now dowloading the flight info data for all flights including passenger lists for all 4 flights...good evidence against "No hijackers on manifests" arguement.

[gumboot]

Thermite dude.... C'mon.

Try thinkin' outside the box.

:)


I thought maybe it was a protest against "towel heads" ;)

:jaw-dropp

Just kidding.

-Andrew

[Brainster]

I have already reviewed the CVR transcript, and have used it to refute Fetzers claim that it is fake. He claims this, because he says the recording contains the voices of the vicitms planning to run the cart into the cabin door. In fact, this is an outright lie. None of the transcript (a legal document) states any of the voices indicating a plan to run the cart into the cabin door.

Yep. Fetzer's been telling that lie for about a month now--the first I heard it was the Colmes interview. In fact, the only words we know came from outside the cabin are "In the cockpit. If we don't, we'll die!" (And can't you just imagine Dylan Avery mocking those words in LCFC?).

BTW, a decent resource is Democratic Underground's threads on 9-11 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125). It's mostly the same stuff we see all the time, but the intellect level's a little higher than the Looser board (like that's a challenge) and there are a few solid debunkers--Boloboffin and Jazz particularly and even some reasonably intelligent CTers. The amazing vidcap of WTC 7 which shows the southside was first posted over there, as was Spooked911's Chickenwire Experiment. Lots of folks like Reprehensor and Killtown in a very public and heavily trafficked forum where they may find it tougher to duck questions.

[JamesB]

Anybody want to split up the task of reviewing them (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html) for ammunition? There are over 1,000 pieces and some of them are quite large.

Damn, that is the motherload. But remember, there is no evidence connecting the 19 Arabs to the hijacking, Well, except for those hundreds of pieces of evidence which have obviously all been faked.

Now I guess I know what I will be doing tonight.

[gumboot]

Not sure if this is viable evidence, but..

Microsoft Flight Simulator - Pentagon Crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSc5V_Bwh8

...Hani was one crazy pilot if this simulator is accurate.


I'd be curious to see a flightpath - the turn looked a lot steeper than I have previously heard. Would be interesting to see how the turn radius compares to the various hypothesis of the actual flight path.

It should also be pointed out that the actual Pentagon would be much easier to find than the pentagon in the flight sim - from what I could see the Flight Sim Pentagon blended into the randomly generated landscape quite badly, and also appeared smaller (relative to surrounding structures).

A quick glance at a satellite photo of DC indicates the Pentagon sticks out pretty well. (especially as it's surrounded by freeways).

-Andrew

[60hzxtl]

This guy gets a prize in my book.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9287

but let's not pick on Dylan's adoring followers!

ah and a few miutes later he posts again to be EDITED by Chuck Sheen!

"This post has been edited by chucksheen on Aug 1 2006, 03:00 AM "

[Gravy]

I am now dowloading the flight info data for all flights including passenger lists for all 4 flights...good evidence against "No hijackers on manifests" arguement.
Mike at 911myths.com (MikeW here) obtained these a while ago and put them up on his site. He also typed out the lists and linked to bios of the people on them: a big job that he should be applauded for.

It was good ammunition against the deniers at Ground Zero who tell the public that the hijackers weren't on the lists. Also, the Boston Globe printed the full lists of flight 11 and 175 pax on Sept. 14, 2001, though not reproductions of the lists themselves, so it's not as if this material just popped up "mysteriously" five years later.

[Gravy]

It should also be pointed out that the actual Pentagon would be much easier to find than the pentagon in the flight sim - from what I could see the Flight Sim Pentagon blended into the randomly generated landscape quite badly, and also appeared smaller (relative to surrounding structures).
Agreed. The human eye (okay, we sometimes need corrective optics) is much much much sharper than any home flight sim or CT video. One of the most amusing CT claims to me is that hitting the Twin Towers is like finding a needle in a haystack. No, it's like finding two of the tallest buildings in the world at the intersection of the Hudson River and Atlantic Ocean in weather pilots call "severe clear."

One thing I've never seen is the altitude of flight 77 when it began its 270-degree turn. It was at 7,000 feet when 38 miles out, and came out of the turn descending through 2,200, but where did it start the turn?

Wait, I forgot: I'm not a CT and I don't care about such unimportant minutiae.

[T.A.M.]

I am assuming that the documents at the Trial would be different then the partial lists Mike got from McDermott, and hence would add to the weight of the argument, but you are right, it took a lot of work to get them, and the Globes seating arrangement. Would be nice to see if the globe had a hard copy of the list they got for flight 11

[T.A.M.]

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200030.jpg

Nice pick from trial...fair bit more than tiny bits from what I can see.

[Gravy]

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200030.jpg

Nice pick from trial...fair bit more than tiny bits from what I can see.
Yes, that was released with the last Moussaoui batch, and I think it was on the net before that. A lot of new stuff in this batch from what I can see, but it may be a day or two before the servers calm down. Downloads keep stalling.

[Brainster]

Yes, that was released with the last Moussaoui batch, and I think it was on the net before that. A lot of new stuff in this batch from what I can see, but it may be a day or two before the servers calm down. Downloads keep stalling.

May I suggest breaking up the task? I'll do n-r for now, we can subdivide later.

There is an advantage in numbers. I'd suggest descriptions for every file, even those that appear worthless.

[SRW]

We should start a Paltalk chat.

In the 911 room and they are pointing fingers at who is a shill andwho is'nt. Same old *****.

If people come to this room to laugh at them then you are stoopid.

The Shills are Stoopid,

[T.A.M.]

Just finished going through the trial flash presentation of the flights, passengers, seating plans.

Very cool. All hijackers are listed, with ALL OF THEIR SEATING ASSIGNMENTS.

Only disappointing thing is no audio of phone calls. Does have audio of the hijackers P.A. commands. Very interesting.

[SRW]

In the 911 room and they are pointing fingers at who is a shill andwho is'nt. Same old *****.

If people come to this room to laugh at them then you are stoopid.

The Shills are Stoopid,

No Dinosaurs and the flood is true, (the jooose did it),

[T.A.M.]

AA Flight 11:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
2A Wail Alshehri
2B Waleed Alshehri
8D Mohamed Atta
8G Abdul Omari
10B Satarn Al Suqami


UA Flight 175:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
2A Fayez Ahmed
2B Mohand Alshehri
6C Marwan Alshehri
9C Hamzi Alghamdi
9D Ahmed Alghamdi

AA Flight 77:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
1B Hani Hanjour
5E Nawaf Alhazmi
5F Salem Alhazmi
12A Majed Moqed
12B Khalid Almihdhar

UA Flight 93:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
1B Ziad Jarrah
3C Ahmed Alnami
3D Saeed Alghamdi
6B Ahmed Alhaznawi

[JamesB]

Not sure if this is viable evidence, but..

Microsoft Flight Simulator - Pentagon Crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWSc5V_Bwh8

...Hani was one crazy pilot if this simulator is accurate.

Did you notice the Moussaoui exhibits?

OK01095 Microsoft Flight Simulator 98 CD case (X03-17318)
OK01101 Empty Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 Professional Box
OK01102 One grey & black Logitech wingman extreme joystick with USB adapter

[T.A.M.]

Interesting that they also list in most cases where the phone calls originated, and I would assume they knew this because an airfone was used.

ie

Linda Gronlund placed a call at 9:46:05 That lasted 71 seconds to Elsa Strong. Though she was assigned Seat 2A, teh Call was placed from Row 26DEF (I assume you can identify the row where the airfone is located remotely)

[JamesB]

AA Flight 11:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
2A Wail Alshehri
2B Waleed Alshehri
8D Mohamed Atta
8G Abdul Omari
10B Satarn Al Suqami


UA Flight 175:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
2A Fayez Ahmed
2B Mohand Alshehri
6C Marwan Alshehri
9C Hamzi Alghamdi
9D Ahmed Alghamdi

AA Flight 77:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
1B Hani Hanjour
5E Nawaf Alhazmi
5F Salem Alhazmi
12A Majed Moqed
12B Khalid Almihdhar

UA Flight 93:

Seat # Hijacker
------- -------
1B Ziad Jarrah
3C Ahmed Alnami
3D Saeed Alghamdi
6B Ahmed Alhaznawi

NO!!!!! THEY WEREN'T ON THE FLIGHT MANIFESTS, JIM FETZER SAYS THEY WEREN'T!!!!

[CptColumbo]

Did you notice the Moussaoui exhibits?

OK01095 Microsoft Flight Simulator 98 CD case (X03-17318)
OK01101 Empty Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 Professional Box
OK01102 One grey & black Logitech wingman extreme joystick with USB adapter
That is a quality joystick, he certainly knows his gaming paraphenalia.

[T.A.M.]

Of course, Fetzer will say they just made the numbers up, as the flash animation isnt the official passenger manifest.

[JamesB]

That is a quality joystick, he certainly knows his gaming paraphenalia.

Somehow I don't think Logitech will be using this in their marketing material.

[T.A.M.]

So the conclusion I am coming to is that the vast majority of calls were made from airfones, simply because they identidy where the calls came from, by seating row, even when the seating assignment for the caller was different.

(Caller X was assigned seat 4A, but made call from Seating Row 26DEF)

How else could they id where the call came from.

This bodes well for minimizing the CT stand that the calls couldnt have been made from the planes at high speeds from high altitudes.

[JamesB]

Damn, this shows the location of where every body (or body part) were found. If you click on each link it brings up the photo of the victim. Notice that some of the bodies were unidentified by DNA, but identified genetically as brothers. Hmm, I wonder why brothers with no DNA on file were working at the Pentagon? /end sarcasm

The no planers can take this and shove it up their #@%

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200318.html

[T.A.M.]

So I am reading the Stipulation agreed upon by defense and Procecution.

In it, it give a point by point timeline of events. Each time a phone call is mentioned it is stated as either an "Air Phone" "Air-telephone" or as a call from a "phone in row X". so it seems to me that almost all the calls were made from airfones.

[defaultdotxbe]

That is a quality joystick, he certainly knows his gaming paraphenalia.
thats nothing, i used an MS SideWinder Force Feedback 2 for my FS2004 tests (crashing a Boeing 777 into the Sears Tower in Chicago)

the results: it turns out crashing a plane is about as easy as falling off a log


BTW, James, i posted those flight sim evidence pics, and one of a box cutter on the blog comments

nvm, it was Pat that made the post about the evidence :)

you know, i just realized, this thread has more posts than my entire forum...thats sad :(

[MikeW]

Each time a phone call is mentioned it is stated as either an "Air Phone" "Air-telephone" or as a call from a "phone in row X". so it seems to me that almost all the calls were made from airfones.
In the trial they said all but two were from airfones, although you have to be a little careful with that: they're saying all but two of the specific calls they were talking about. They also say there may have been more cellphone calls. Overall you're quite right, though, the vast majority of the calls were from airfones.

[gumboot]

In the trial they said all but two were from airfones,


Has anyone noticed that the CTers (I'm thinking Fetzner specifically here...(think it was him?)) claim there's no way terrorists could take over a plane with knives because Americans wouldn't do what they say.

Yet they dismiss the airphone calls because they claim there's no way the terrorists would allow the passengers to use them.

:confused:

-Andrew

[Shrinker]

Yep. Fetzer's been telling that lie for about a month now--the first I heard it was the Colmes interview. In fact, the only words we know came from outside the cabin are "In the cockpit. If we don't, we'll die!" (And can't you just imagine Dylan Avery mocking those words in LCFC?).


I think I read in the UA93 CVR transcript that one of the passengers could be heard shouting 'roll it!'. It's easy to miss because you might assume it was the hijackers saying that. If it was the passengers then the most obvious 'it' in that scenario might be a drinks cart. From that you could say 'the passengers were overheard discussing using a drinks cart to ram the cockpit door'.

[T.A.M.]

"Roll it" is spoken at 10:00:42.

For him to say that "Roll it" means they were discussing ramming the drink cart into the cabin door, is the equivalent to me saying...

"Throw it", and someone interpreting it as the passengers getting ready to throw cans of drink at the cabin door.

You cannot put words into someone esles mouth, as Fetzer does, and then use to catagorically prove some thing is fake with it.

[T.A.M.]

and because it is not in Bold, it could have been the one of the hijackers telling the pilot hijakcer to roll the plane to upset the crowd beating at the cabin door etc...there is no distinction from transcript on who speaks when it is not bold.

I believe they mention that the pilot did just that.

[Shrinker]

"Roll it" is spoken at 10:00:42.

For him to say that "Roll it" means they were discussing ramming the drink cart into the cabin door, is the equivalent to me saying...

"Throw it", and someone interpreting it as the passengers getting ready to throw cans of drink at the cabin door.

You cannot put words into someone esles mouth, as Fetzer does, and then use to catagorically prove some thing is fake with it.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that Fetzer may be unaware of the 'roll it' quote, or doesn't realise that it is the sole source for the speculation about the drinks cart plan.

Fetzer prefers us to think that the official story involves a whispered plot at the back of the plane, which couldn't possibly have been recorded. He's built a strawman that he can easily cut down.

[gumboot]

"Roll it" is spoken at 10:00:42.

For him to say that "Roll it" means they were discussing ramming the drink cart into the cabin door, is the equivalent to...


Someone saying "Pull it" and them interpreting it as "Blow up the building?" :rolleyes:

-Andrew

[Shrinker]

Someone saying "Pull it" and them interpreting it as "Blow up the building?" :rolleyes:

-Andrew

Obviously I'm still not being clear.

The existence of the drinks cart plan is irrelevant. It supports neither side.

I, and Fetzer have seen reports that the CVR transcripts suggest passengers planned using a drinks cart.

Fetzer claims, no such discussion could ever have been recorded on the CVR, therefore somebody made the whole thing up.

I'm claiming, the 'discussion' was recorded, but it was just these two easily missed, ambigious words. Anybody looking for anomalies would be disinclined to make the connection between 'roll it' and the cart story, precisely because, as you say, it's quite tenuous.

[chipmunk stew]

This guy gets a prize in my book.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9287

but let's not pick on Dylan's adoring followers!

ah and a few miutes later he posts again to be EDITED by Chuck Sheen!

"This post has been edited by chucksheen on Aug 1 2006, 03:00 AM "
For posterity...

[realitybites]

This guy gets a prize in my book.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9287

but let's not pick on Dylan's adoring followers!

ah and a few miutes later he posts again to be EDITED by Chuck Sheen!

"This post has been edited by chucksheen on Aug 1 2006, 03:00 AM "
I love Chuck's edit. "Get the hell out and don't come back till you tow the woo line and post things that make us feel good about ourselves."

Edit - In other news, it appears my ban over there is IP related 'cause I can infiltrate at work. Just not at home.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I love Chuck's edit. "Get the hell out and don't come back till you tow the woo line and post things that make us feel good about ourselves."

Edit - In other news, it appears my ban over there is IP related 'cause I can infiltrate at work. Just not at home.

Yeah, I confirmed my work IP ban last night when I got home. I wonder if this was partially preemptive. With the trial info getting released they knew they were going to get slammed with facts that toasted their fantasies they call theories.

[MarkyX]

When I get done with my feedback, my video will also be another slam to their face. Hopefully this happens today.

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/idhitit-29848.jpg

[aggle-rithm]

(the jooose did it),

OJ Simpson?

[realitybites]

Yeah, I confirmed my work IP ban last night when I got home. I wonder if this was partially preemptive. With the trial info getting released they knew they were going to get slammed with facts that toasted their fantasies they call theories.
I wonder how long it will take for them to tie up the loose ends and figure out people can post from multiple IPs.

PS - Thanks for the FireFox stuff.

[gumboot]

Obviously I'm still not being clear.


No you were being clear. :) I just couldn't resist.

Making bold conclusions (either for or against) based on tenuous connections seems to be a CTer strongpoint...

-Andrew

[gumboot]

OJ Simpson?


No, not O jaaaaay. It's O jooooo.

jaaaaay...

Listen... Ooooo.

jaaaaoooooo...

Oooo. From the back of the throat.

Oooooo.

-Andrew

[Brainster]

I think I read in the UA93 CVR transcript that one of the passengers could be heard shouting 'roll it!'. It's easy to miss because you might assume it was the hijackers saying that. If it was the passengers then the most obvious 'it' in that scenario might be a drinks cart. From that you could say 'the passengers were overheard discussing using a drinks cart to ram the cockpit door'.

I had always assumed that meant roll the plane--that it was a suggestion from one of the hijackers to Ziad Jarrah.

[Shrinker]

I had always assumed that meant roll the plane--that it was a suggestion from one of the hijackers to Ziad Jarrah.
CVR: Roll it!

Investigator #1: Was that a passenger or a hijacker?

Investigator #2: I'll put it down as a passenger.

Investigator #1: What did he mean by 'roll it'?

Investigator #2: I dunno, roll the drinks cart...? To ram the door...?

Journalist: Investigators studying the CVR today speculated the passengers planned to batter down the cockpit door with a drinks cart.

Conspiracy Kook: This news article says the CVR picked up a conversation between the passengers where they discussed using a drinks cart as a battering ram. Why has this evidence not been released? I know, because it's fake! CVR's can't pick up passenger conversations!

Debunker: This bit here where they say 'roll it'. That's the 'discussion'. It all stems from that.

Conpiracy kook: 'Roll it', means 'batter the door down with a drinks cart'? crylol.gif!! Prove it! You can't! Your debunk is pathetic!! Inside job!! Smoking gun!! Universalseed.org!!!

[60hzxtl]

Hey!

JOHNDOEX is now an administrator!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&st=840&

I hope this doesn't interfere with his flying ability.

[Belz...]

JOHNDOEX is now an administrator!

I hope this doesn't interfere with his flying ability.

Oh, I'm sure he can play MS flight simulator simultaneously.

[Shrinker]

Hey!

JOHNDOEX is now an administrator!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&st=840&

I hope this doesn't interfere with his flying ability.

:jaw-dropp A prize to the first person to provoke a startling abuse of power! Has he banned Billzilla yet?

[MarkyX]

Hopefully I can release my video today. Just need that feedback for last minute changes :)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
PS - Thanks for the FireFox stuff.

no problem, enjoy :D

[realitybites]

Hey!

JOHNDOEX is now an administrator!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&st=840&

I hope this doesn't interfere with his flying ability.
Is it possible to find something hysterically funny and nauseating at the same time?

[sleahead]

A prize to the first person to provoke a startling abuse of power! Has he banned Billzilla yet?

I think JDX has been made a mod for exactlty that purpose, i.e. to ban Billzilla.The rest of them don't want to be seen banning an actual expert on something. It will be a 'pilot' on pilot kill.

[EvilBiker]

Hey!

JOHNDOEX is now an administrator!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&st=840&

I hope this doesn't interfere with his flying ability.

Well, he has taken off all the links to the pprune site...

EDIT: My bad, only from his posts, so it's not a moderator thing...

[kookbreaker]

I think JDX has been made a mod for exactlty that purpose, i.e. to ban Billzilla.The rest of them don't want to be seen banning an actual expert on something. It will be a 'pilot' on pilot kill.

Instead, it will be a wanabee who is getting his butt handed to him banning a guy who forgot more about piloting than JDX will ever know.

[chipmunk stew]

:jaw-dropp A prize to the first person to provoke a startling abuse of power! Has he banned Billzilla yet?With all the threats he's handed out, guard those IPs, folks.

[Shrinker]

I notice Loose Change is now up on the IMDB and is accepting reviews and ratings from registered members.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0831315/

A quick look at the ratings stats shows that credulity apparently increases with age. Younger voters are voting lower. (Although there aren't many votes registered yet.)

[realitybites]

... for sexual harrasment?

Jim Fetzer was my Professor for a year in Duluth, and let me tell you the man is crazy, has been suspended from teaching for sexual harrassment, and now is retiring. From here (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9091).

Has anyone heard this or is this old news or just some kid who has a beef for not passing his class?

[MikeW]

... for sexual harrasment?

From here (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9091).

Has anyone heard this or is this old news or just some kid who has a beef for not passing his class?

Old-ish news, I think. See here:
Fetzer himself had been the target of a similar claim; at the end of the 2004 academic year, Fetzer was suspended for several weeks for a purported incident of sexual harassment. (Fetzer admitted that he had a conflict with a female staff member at UMD, but denied there was a sexual component.)
http://www.citypages.com/databank/27/1334/article14475.asp

[EvilBiker]

Anti-vaccination rears it's head:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9316&st=0&#last

Somebody has already weighed in with a skeptical viewpoint.

[T.A.M.]

Those F*&king twirps over there at LC Forum are useless anyway. Adding JDX as a mod sounds like soemthing they'd do. he is an obnoxious know it all, who thinks only his opinion matters, and disregards any opinions from outside the USA. I don't know why anyone here bothers to post there. I just lurk to find out what there latest things are, so we can debunk them quickly.

[apathoid]

I notice Loose Change is now up on the IMDB and is accepting reviews and ratings from registered members.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0831315/

A quick look at the ratings stats shows that credulity apparently increases with age. Younger voters are voting lower. (Although there aren't many votes registered yet.)

I gave it a "1" :D (there wasnt an option for "0" or negative infinity)

[T.A.M.]

damn, the trial site is so busy you can't even get into it now

[sleahead]

Just read that Citypages article Mike W posted. Once again, Fetzer comes across as across as a nut. How surprising. From that article, guess how Fetzer dealt with this question:

For that matter, you might wonder, if 9/11 was orchestrated by the government as a pretext for imperial expansion, why did the government identify 15 of the alleged hijackers as coming from Saudi Arabia, a U.S. ally? Why not say they were from Iraq or Afghanistan, which were the presumptive objects of our imperial ambition?

Give up? He dealt with it like this:

"That's an interesting question," Fetzer says. In addressing this thorny matter, he chooses to talk about Lee Harvey Oswald. "Why, in framing Oswald—when you can use any weapon in the world—do you use a piece-of-junk World War II Italian carbine, which wasn't even a high-velocity weapon?" he asks. "Why does the government do these sorts of things? Because they can get away with it. And one reason the government can have been emboldened to pull off such a giant hoax as 9/11 is because they got away with assassinating the president of the United States in broad daylight in a major American city in front of hundreds of witnesses."


Edit: misplaced words

[apathoid]

Those F*&king twirps over there at LC Forum are useless anyway. Adding JDX as a mod sounds like soemthing they'd do. he is an obnoxious know it all, who thinks only his opinion matters, and disregards any opinions from outside the USA. I don't know why anyone here bothers to post there.

Its gone from bad to worse over there. Chucksheen just edited a skeptics post with a linkspamming to the usual CTer sites. I'm guessing this will become the norm in addition to the link filtering....

I just lurk to find out what there latest things are, so we can debunk them quickly
I've only posted there on three different occasions, you're right in that its usually pointless. But sometimes you gotta give em a good jab to the ribs (the passenger manifests yesterday) to keep them off balance.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

... for sexual harrasment?

From here (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9091).

Has anyone heard this or is this old news or just some kid who has a beef for not passing his class?


...Fetzer himself had been the target of a similar claim; at the end of the 2004 academic year, Fetzer was suspended for several weeks for a purported incident of sexual harassment. (Fetzer admitted that he had a conflict with a female staff member at UMD, but denied there was a sexual component.)...
http://www.citypages.com/databank/27/1334/article14475.asp

[T.A.M.]

I'd say let them wallow in their own self delusion. The more evidence we show them, the more chance they have to address it. Leave them in the dark. they'll seem all the bigger idiots when joe public drops by for a question or two.