Loose Change - Part III

[Gravy]

Sentinel,
How many times do you have to be told that the way you post is not productive? That's a serious question: how many times? If you tell me, then I'll just make that many posts asking you to make productive posts, and then we'll be all set.

Will you PLEASE try the suggestion I made here for the umpteenth time:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1716128&postcount=147

Please, Sentinel. Otherwise you're just a troll.

I would like a response to this.

[chipmunk stew]

For those of you who doubted that the Loosers are ready to accept, given appropriate evidence and action, that 9/11 was NOT an inside job, I am happy to prove you wrong:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6700&view=findpost&p=5491376

Any truthseeking person should demand that these reasonable standards be met.

[Sentinel]

The reason I came here in the first place was in response to your "TROLL"
remark about me being a "Crackpot"


So if anyone fits the position its you, greasy.



I raise valid points that you and associates claim you can't read and you all turn into a bunch of sissys complaining you don't understand the contex?


Heres a clue...

when it comes to trolling you're all over the spook site giving them commercial time.


And for "dancing on graves" I can deduce that you're nothing more than a follower and can't see past your nazi nose to figure that 3000 people were set up so halliburton and enron and worldcom and all the rest are feeding off the graves of our loved ones.


I guess thats why all Our Identification just mysteriously get lost all of a sudden.


Heres another clue for the clueless. The cable box is fiber optic for visual and audio. Its not only the phones they're watching silly sicophant.




Sentinel

[WildCat]

Talk about a headline that turned out to be a cruel tease:
Cops make arrests over low-budget movie (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-scene21.html)

-sigh- If only...

[Belz...]

New York City's mayor RTudolph Guliani, who leaped at the agency's throat virtually the morning of his inauguration in january 1993. In contrast to the relatively measured tones of the two governors and their supernumeraries, Guliani's vehemence ratcheted higher in pitch as early in his administration he slashed city agencies and services in an attempt to avoid a multiy-million dollar budget gap. In early 1996, the mayors right hand man derided the PA as "the fattest sacred cow in America."

Devided We stand
Eric Darton

Sentinel

Well, you actually make more sense here than usual.

...<giggle> devided...

[Sentinel]

This thread contains a virus.




Have a nice day



Sentinel

[WildCat]

The reason I came here in the first place was in response to your "TROLL"
remark about me being a "Crackpot"


So if anyone fits the position its you, greasy.



I raise valid points that you and associates claim you can't read and you all turn into a bunch of sissys complaining you don't understand the contex?


Heres a clue...

when it comes to trolling you're all over the spook site giving them commercial time.


And for "dancing on graves" I can deduce that you're nothing more than a follower and can't see past your nazi nose to figure that 3000 people were set up so halliburton and enron and worldcom and all the rest are feeding off the graves of our loved ones.


I guess thats why all Our Identification just mysteriously get lost all of a sudden.


Heres another clue for the clueless. The cable box is fiber optic for visual and audio. Its not only the phones they're watching silly sicophant.




Sentinel
There it is... proof of the massive Giuliani/Halliburton/Nazi/Illuminati/Bush/Silverstein/CIA/NSA/Freemason/Zionist/Mossad/Port Authority plot to... well I don't know, but it's crystal clear in Sentinels mind...

[60hzxtl]

And for "dancing on graves" I can deduce that you're nothing more than a follower and can't see past your nazi nose to figure that 3000 people were set up so halliburton and enron and worldcom and all the rest are feeding off the graves of our loved ones.

I guess thats why all Our Identification just mysteriously get lost all of a sudden.

Sentinel


Call me when you catch 'em!

Sentinel - Osama's defense witness!

Dance on, 343 brothers appreciate it!

[Sentinel]

Aren't you supposed to be in school now?

Why read ? you'll only stay stupid forever.
Do you gingle when you walk Balz?

Hail Canada A



Sentinel

[Class]

This thread contains a virus.




Have a nice day



Sentinel
Eh?

[Belz...]

Spelling check ?

Someone needs to lesrn how to be human again.

If "lesrning" to be human means falling pray to your kind of madness, I'll be happy to be inhuman, alien or otherwise.


Sorry for the superior minded readers who can't see past the lowerhumanity mispell.

Well I AM an elitist.

Please forgive me, you're so superior.

There is no excuse for inferiority, whelp. Now sweep that floor!

[kookbreaker]

It looks like the good doctor is stepping away from his earlier claims about the sample he got...but for the wrong reasons.

http://www.phillyimc.org/en/2006/06/25004.shtml


"The samples are predominantly iron, so we can rule out the 'molten aluminum' hypothesis with a high degree of confidence. There is very little chromium, so that the 'molten structural steel' hypothesis is highly suspect. Yes, there is sulfur -- but proving the use of 'thermate' positively will certainly require further analyses and comparisons with samples of known origin (such as thermate-products). And that analysis takes a lot of time, unfortunately. Patience is a virtue. "


Now, since when is structural steel high in Chromium? I thought that was for stainless and keeping a shine. Not a needed part for I-beams.

[Belz...]

And congratulations on spelling things correctly in that last post. Nice improvement.

Well, to be fair, the odds of making spelling errors increases exponentially with the number of words in one's posts. Considering Sentinel's post's length, the odds were in his favour, this time.

Never has anyone appeared so stupid in response to actual proof of politics.

Proof of politics is not proof of actual action.

Just cause you can't handle the truth, don't lable me with your pathetic BS aboput danciong on graves.

Oh, we can handle the truth. We're just waiting for you to prove it.

I have every right to question who killed my freinds and associates.

Indeed. You even have the right to say stupid things.

Some people abuse their rights.

This thread contains a virus.

Have a nice day

Belz... is not a dupe.

Nice try

[Sentinel]

Thats why our Brothers and sisters are dying over there so the taliban can attend yale.


Tyhanks to fools with *** on their chin who believe everthing they're told by the governement.


Thats why were complaining about the torture that the two soldiers had to endure when the Bin Ladens Bushes business associates were allowed to fly when medical emergency flights were stood Down.



Yeah, and the order for that came from Cheney.


"We had open lines right after the first building was......"
Meet The Press Sept 16 2001

"Mr President do you know what happening in New York? Yes, I do I will have something to say about it later"
John Cocran ABC NEWS Sept 11th 2001


Hey, You can follow right along till the boxcars are filled with our loved ones going to the new halliburton detention camps fill to capacity if ou like. I'm not blinded by the false flag op.



Have a nice day silly SICKO-PHANT



Sentinel

[Bronze Dog]

Is it time to bring on the kittens, yet? I'm getting kind of a Dr. MAS feel. Or should we wait for the photos that don't prove anything?

[Belz...]

Aren't you supposed to be in school now?

School ? I'm taking my afternoon break at work. _I_ work, at least.

Why read ? you'll only stay stupid forever.

You're essentially correct. Reading your posts will make me stupid.

Do you gingle when you walk Balz?

No idea who you're talking to.

Hail Canada A

Well, your posts so far show that you have a certain level of contempt for non-americans. Or at least Canadians. I don't know why.

And it's spelled "Eh". Like in : "Nice weather, eh ?"

And I'm FRENCH Canadian, so I don't care too much if you insult the other folk. I don't say "Eh" unless it's meant to replace a question mark.

[Sentinel]

Deja Vu all over again


The Hilo Tribune Herald Nov 30 1941
"Japs likely to strike over the weekend"



Then.......





Sentinel

[60hzxtl]

Yes, but Sentinel, you were at a DRILL on Monday.

You must have foreknowledge!

Why else would you drill?

[WildCat]

Deja Vu all over again


The Hilo Tribune Herald Nov 30 1941
"Japs likely to strike over the weekend"



Then.......





Sentinel
You're quite a piece of work there, Sentinel. Would you like to include Custer's Last Stand in this? Makes as much sense, it was all part of the land grab in the west you know. Sitting Bull was a CIA plant...

[WildCat]

Yes, but Sentinel, you were at a DRILL on Monday.

You must have foreknowledge!

Why else would you drill?
You're absolutely right! The Loosers were right about Sentinel, he's part of the disinfo campaign to discredit the TRUTH movement.

[Hutch]

If "lesrning" to be human means falling pray to your kind of madness, I'll be happy to be inhuman, alien or otherwise.

bolding and italics mine.

There is no excuse for inferiority, whelp. Now sweep that floor!


Sauce for the goose, belz--Tote that barge! Lift that Bale! ;) :D

Press on.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

For those of you who doubted that the Loosers are ready to accept, given appropriate evidence and action, that 9/11 was NOT an inside job, I am happy to prove you wrong:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6700&view=findpost&p=5491376

Any truthseeking person should demand that these reasonable standards be met.

From that thread. Posts reproduced in their entirety.


Absolutely, positively in the spirit of openess and honesty and in order to preserve the Republic the entire US government- all elected officials and all appointed officers above a GS 10 position would have to immediately offer their resignations, followed by a national referendum to nominate and elect a interim government comprised entirely of those who have never before served in any capacity whatsoever.

An immediate repeal of any law or order put in place subsequent to 9/11/01 and the elimination of any department created since that date.

A full and open investigation with full subpoena powers and an absolute and total amnesty granted to anyone who testifies. There will be no excuses of any kind to excuse oneself from open questioning and any existing law or statute that allows for classification or secrecy of any kind will not apply to this investigation.

That's a start.



killing themselves.

[Sentinel]

Whats sad is the level of pathetic ignorance there is among some of you "people" (?)



One if you're not caught up on your LC crew being government snitch operation the you're dumber than you think,really.


Heres another clue....


lgf: red and green anti-semitism

Why would somebody admit to being an imforment for the hatecrimes branch of the RMCP?


SF/Indymedia-open letter to all Indymedia outlets

Why when this same person was involved with this group, would the group break up because of secrurity risk and police imformant?


Why do you keep posting their crap, giving them constant commercial air time ?


I know why because you're playing two sides of the same conter-feit coin.


a B-52 bomber crashed into the Empire state building ? Isn't Korey looking for terrorist but then went AWOL to join the cause and yet theres still a B-52 bomber crashing?


This is clearly a dis-imfo op and you're giving them Commercial Air time.


Its all very clear now.



Sentinel

[60hzxtl]

Me? I HATE green Semites!

At least something is clear!

[realitybites]

"Are you ridiculed? ... Do you know someone who is?"

Honestly, it's a miracle these guys are able to search for Teh Truth when they seem too preoccupied in feeling sorry for each other (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6697&st=0&#entry5496337).

I recommend a group hug followed by a couple swings to the noggin with a Whiffle Ball Bat.

[Sentinel]

French canadian?


When I lived in florida canadas french canadians used to come there acting like their ***** didn't stink. They were rude as hell and use to get mad if the "help" didn't speak french to them.

Is this what you rep Belch ?



Sentinel

[Class]

"Are you ridiculed? ... Do you know someone who is?"

Honestly, it's a miracle these guys are able to search for Teh Truth when they seem too preoccupied in feeling sorry for each other (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6697&st=0&#entry5496337).

I recommend a group hug followed by a couple swings to the noggin with a Whiffle Ball Bat.
Pretty ironic, considering they ridicule (and in some cases ban!) those who do not hold the same beliefs as them.

[Sentinel]

Actually being a brownose is ok, Buffy.


And another thing its 347 plus the firepatrolmen making it 348 who lost their lives.


73 L/E


Making it aprox 452 first responders lost


Make sure your numbers are correct buffy



Sentinel

[Sentinel]

plus numerous Off-duty personell.



The S/T red bandana man was vollie/LI




Sentinel

[Hutch]

Just to show we are not the only afflicted, take a look at this thread on Bad Astronomy-Universe TOday (BAUT) and take a look at sinsanity2006's therories...http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=43146

The woo is strong in that one--but the BAUT'ers seem to be unaffected...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Whats sad is the level of pathetic ignorance there is among some of you "people" (?)
One if you're not caught up on your LC crew being government snitch operation the you're dumber than you think,really.
Heres another clue....
lgf: red and green anti-semitism
Why would somebody admit to being an imforment for the hatecrimes branch of the RMCP?
SF/Indymedia-open letter to all Indymedia outlets
Why when this same person was involved with this group, would the group break up because of secrurity risk and police imformant?
Why do you keep posting their crap, giving them constant commercial air time ?
I know why because you're playing two sides of the same conter-feit coin.
a B-52 bomber crashed into the Empire state building ? Isn't Korey looking for terrorist but then went AWOL to join the cause and yet theres still a B-52 bomber crashing?
This is clearly a dis-imfo op and you're giving them Commercial Air time.
Its all very clear now.
Sentinel

http://www.nata2.info/humor/flash/badger.swf

[kookbreaker]

If anyone is interested, there is a someone less 'frothing at the mouth' CT'er on the Screw Loose Change message board. It should be more interesting that waiting for Sentinel to become coherent.

http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/index.php

[chipmunk stew]

If anyone is interested, there is a someone less 'frothing at the mouth' CT'er on the Screw Loose Change message board. It should be more interesting that waiting for Sentinel to become coherent.

http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/index.phpCool! Didn't realize they had a forum.

[kookbreaker]

Cool! Didn't realize they had a forum.

It started about 3 days ago.

[Hellbound]

It started about 3 days ago.

I hear a shot of peni...

Oh, wait, nevermind. Wrong thread.

:D

[money]

Tyhanks to fools with *** on their chin who believe everthing they're told by the governement.

Sentinel


Who is Ty Hanks? Tom's long lost cousin? And what's wrong with his chin?

[Sentinel]

Money,


Bwahh haaa


OMG Run for the hills


*** on his chin .

When you got to type this fast it can get a little confusing.


The nazi believe bush on this board




Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Money,
Bwahh haaa
OMG Run for the hills
*** on his chin .
When you got to type this fast it can get a little confusing.
The nazi believe bush on this board
Sentinel

Okay, Godwin's been invoked; can we get a threadlock now?

[XXX]

Anybody read this yet? It's from an article called "Professors of Paranoia? Academics give a scholarly stamp to 9/11 conspiracy theories" By JOHN GRAVOIS -- Chicago -- Chronicle of Higher Education -- June 23, 2006
http://chronicle.com

Though I am reading it off 911citizenswatch site. at this page

http://www.911citizenswatch.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=889&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

I love this...

James H. Fetzer, the co-chairman of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, retired last month from his post as a distinguished McKnight university professor of philosophy at the University of Minnesota at Duluth. He wanted to focus more on the movement. "Whether there's another critical-thinking course being taught at the University of Minnesota is relatively trivial," he says, "compared to this."

Mr. Fetzer, a voluble, impassioned man who often speaks in long paragraphs, is no stranger to conspiracy theory. Before September 11, he had a side career investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. But the issues surrounding the Scholars for 9/11 Truth are far more acute, he thinks. In Mr. Fetzer's mind, the country is in a state of dire emergency.

Hence, it does not much bother Mr. Fetzer that outside scientists have largely refrained from tackling the group's arguments. "I don't think it's a problem," he says, "because we have so much competence and expertise among ourselves."

911myths.com, a Web site run by a software developer in England, is one of the few venues that offers a running scrutiny of the various claims and arguments coming out of the 9/11 Truth movement. Mr. Fetzer has heard of 911myths .com, but he has never visited the site.

"I have been dealing with disinformation and phony stories about the death of JFK for all these years. There's a huge amount of phoniness out there," he says. "You have to be very selective in how you approach these things."

"I can assure you the things I'm telling you about 9/11 have objective scientific status," he says. 911myths.com, he says, "is going to be built on either fabricated evidence, or disregard of the real evidence, or violations of the principles of scientific reasoning."

"They cannot be right," he says.

Wow. So listen to our evidence because you have to in order to see the big picture, but don't read any rebuttels to it because they have to be wrong without even looking at them!

Even amoung the 9/11 crowd, this guy is totally up his own ass.

[sat556]

If anyone is interested, there is a someone less 'frothing at the mouth' CT'er on the Screw Loose Change message board. It should be more interesting that waiting for Sentinel to become coherent.

http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/index.php

Maybe not... Have you seen who the 'newest member' is? :rolleyes:

[MarkyX]

Debunking the Debunker.

Need feedback.

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/debunking_the_debunker.htm

[sat556]

This thread contains a virus.




Have a nice day



Sentinel

Sentinel, are you trying to imply that you are attempting to upload a virus to this forum?

[Pangea]

Debunking the Debunker.

Need feedback.



I was skimming it quickly at work and this popped out at me:

Controlled demolitions start from the bottom than to the top. I have never seen a controlled demolition that is from the top to the bottom.
Should that be "bottom THEN to the top"?

And just a quick comment about:
They use a woman with Geology PHD to tell us about fictional missile batteries in the pentagon and that the Navy is the best secret service in the United States
She gives the rest of us women geologists a bad name!

[Ducky]

Debunking the Debunker.

Need feedback.

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/debunking_the_debunker.htm



It's great, but check your grammar. you leave out words and mistake alike sounding words for what was intended.

Not a big deal, it's a good draft, just slow down (I know it is difficult with these idiots.)

[Brainster]

Anybody read this yet? It's from an article called "Professors of Paranoia? Academics give a scholarly stamp to 9/11 conspiracy theories" By JOHN GRAVOIS -- Chicago -- Chronicle of Higher Education -- June 23, 2006
http://chronicle.com

Though I am reading it off 911citizenswatch site. at this page

http://www.911citizenswatch.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=889&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

I love this...

James H. Fetzer, the co-chairman of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, retired last month from his post as a distinguished McKnight university professor of philosophy at the University of Minnesota at Duluth. He wanted to focus more on the movement. "Whether there's another critical-thinking course being taught at the University of Minnesota is relatively trivial," he says, "compared to this."

Mr. Fetzer, a voluble, impassioned man who often speaks in long paragraphs, is no stranger to conspiracy theory. Before September 11, he had a side career investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. But the issues surrounding the Scholars for 9/11 Truth are far more acute, he thinks. In Mr. Fetzer's mind, the country is in a state of dire emergency.

Hence, it does not much bother Mr. Fetzer that outside scientists have largely refrained from tackling the group's arguments. "I don't think it's a problem," he says, "because we have so much competence and expertise among ourselves."

911myths.com, a Web site run by a software developer in England, is one of the few venues that offers a running scrutiny of the various claims and arguments coming out of the 9/11 Truth movement. Mr. Fetzer has heard of 911myths .com, but he has never visited the site.

"I have been dealing with disinformation and phony stories about the death of JFK for all these years. There's a huge amount of phoniness out there," he says. "You have to be very selective in how you approach these things."

"I can assure you the things I'm telling you about 9/11 have objective scientific status," he says. 911myths.com, he says, "is going to be built on either fabricated evidence, or disregard of the real evidence, or violations of the principles of scientific reasoning."

"They cannot be right," he says.

Wow. So listen to our evidence because you have to in order to see the big picture, but don't read any rebuttels to it because they have to be wrong without even looking at them!

Even amoung the 9/11 crowd, this guy is totally up his own ass.

Fetzer's a nut. I loved the later bit when he said back in the good old days of Aeschylus (sp?) the mob would have ripped them to pieces. A philosophy professor pining for the good old days of the lynch mob?

Looking at his webpage (http://www.assassinationscience.com/), you can see that he's bought into just about every conspiracy that's come down the pike in the last 45 years--JFK assassination check, moonwalk check, Kerry won Ohio check, even Paul Wellstone check. About the only thing missing is Vince Foster (probably because Fetzer's a liberal).

Indeed, reading all the stuff he believes makes me a little less comfortable agreeing with him that Intelligent Design is a crock.

[money]

Money,

The nazi believe bush on this board

Sentinel

Ya don't say.

(Actually, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at.)

If you're saying that we're a bunch of Bush loving Nazis, I suggest you check out the politics subforum. I'd say Republicans here are in the distinct minority, and Bush supporters are a minority amongst the Republicans...

[brodski]

Ya don't say.

(Actually, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at.)

If you're saying that we're a bunch of Bush loving Nazis, I suggest you check out the politics subforum. I'd say Republicans here are in the distinct minority, and Bush supporters are a minority amongst the Republicans... and we haven't had a Nazi here since NicNac.

[WildCat]

Maybe not... Have you seen who the 'newest member' is? :rolleyes:
Hey, that's me!! :mad:









Oh, you mean Sentinel? :p

[kookbreaker]

Debunking the Debunker.

Need feedback.

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/debunking_the_debunker.htm


This part:

According to CT logic, these "conspirators" are the smartest, most devious, most capable connivers the world has ever seen --
Oh? Here I was, thinking that the consensus is that they made some pretty serious errors, which is why truthseeking has come as far as it has!

– but are incredbly[sic] stupid.
Obsessed and blinded by their lust for power, thus they either are overconfident or don't care.

"Truthseekers" are a odd bunch of people that tend to contradict their own claims. I've seen some white supremacist sites that suggest Dylan Avery and Alex Jones are zionists. They are people who believe UFO took down the towers, that the planes were holograms, or in Dylan's case, Flight 93 had 200 people.

Why did I bring this up? People conflict, it's human nature. Yet we are supposed to believe some big power corporate-backed up one world government exists to enslave us. If such a powertrip organization was at work, don't you think that there would be lots of backstabbing, conflicts, and bribing going on?

You both kind of miss the point. The point behind this genius/idiots comment is that the same conspirators who manage to plant huge amounts explosives without anyone noticing, rig planes with remote controls without any indication or sign, manage to bribe every structural engineer in the world then leave stupid little clues behind or mess up in some idiotic way so that an untrained 'CT' can only spot it.

An example of this is making all the preperations to have a fake 'plane' crash in Pennsylvania in place of the real one, whose crew and passengers will be offloaded and hidden.

Then the plane lands in Cleveland.

[MarkyX]

This part:



You both kind of miss the point. The point behind this genius/idiots comment is that the same conspirators who manage to plant huge amounts explosives without anyone noticing, rig planes with remote controls without any indication or sign, manage to bribe every structural engineer in the world then leave stupid little clues behind or mess up in some idiotic way so that an untrained 'CT' can only spot it.

An example of this is making all the preperations to have a fake 'plane' crash in Pennsylvania in place of the real one, whose crew and passengers will be offloaded and hidden.

Then the plane lands in Cleveland.

I'm so stealing that.

[MarkyX]

It's great, but check your grammar. you leave out words and mistake alike sounding words for what was intended.

Not a big deal, it's a good draft, just slow down (I know it is difficult with these idiots.)

You mean the "then" and "than", right?

This is my FIRST draft of the entire thing. No proofreading for me :eek:

[Bronze Dog]

Sometimes I wonder if the CTers' brains would explode if someone linked to a post of us each making anti-Bush statements.

[gumboot]

"I seriously doubt" becomes the standard of evidence here. Gravy is discussing the number of planes on alert in the post-cold war. The low number is an example of the peace dividend, and Pentagon did reduce its budget. The budget numbers are there, the facts about the number of planes are there, but this guys prefers to rely on "I seriously doubt"


A reality that can be confirmed by one of the ATC centres on 9/11 calling a ready station that had been closed years earlier, not realising it was closed. But then, what would the 9/11 Commission Report know about anything right?

The CTers must actually be the conspirators themselves, judging by the incredible skills and knowledge at their disposal. Clearly LC is this "big lie" thing they keep harping about...

-Andrew

[kookbreaker]

I'm so stealing that.

Be m'guest.

I missed the cheap ad hominen on my handle the first time I glanced at it. Whatta wanker.

Seriously, I am kookbreaker, and he whines about my name being one that means I cannot be biased. Someone put the shoe on and declared it to be a great fit, and it wasn't me or Gravy.

[gumboot]

And then he's got to pay all the hitmen to silence all the people he worked with to coordinate the operation.

Not to mention the "asymetrical near free-fall collapse into their own footprint" complete with "squibs" and "explosions" clearly indicates a controlled demolition, thus making it highly unlikely an insurer is going to pay.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

You both kind of miss the point. The point behind this genius/idiots comment is that the same conspirators who manage to plant huge amounts explosives without anyone noticing, rig planes with remote controls without any indication or sign, manage to bribe every structural engineer in the world then leave stupid little clues behind or mess up in some idiotic way so that an untrained 'CT' can only spot it.


Because that's how it works in bad movies.

1) Establish all powerful enemy
2) Present unlikely hero
3) Have enemy foil hero at every turn
4) At the last moment have enemy make obvious mistake that allows hero to win.

"Put him in the ridiculously slow moving dipping mechanism!"

Seriously... when they look at the US Government they see Dr Evil and Number 1.

-Andrew

[Stellafane]

Because that's how it works in bad movies.

1) Establish all powerful enemy
2) Present unlikely hero
3) Have enemy foil hero at every turn
4) At the last moment have enemy make obvious mistake that allows hero to win.


You forgot:

5) All the grown ups are real sorry they ever doubted the young, plucky hero, but he just laughs at them all.

6) The hot girl who never before would give the hero the time of day throws herself into his waiting arms.

I'm guessing it's 5 and 6 that keep many a CT'er going late at night...

[RandFan]

...actual proof of politics. I know, I so hate that fake proof of politics stuff. My hats off to you, finally someone has proved politics. An actual proof. Amazing.

[money]

and we haven't had a Nazi here since NicNac.

I was actually thinking that Sentinel's posting style when he's frothing is rather like Nicnac's... maybe it's just me.

[MarkyX]

Slight update :)

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/debunking_the_debunker.htm

Added a really funny link questioning Alex Jone's sanity :D

[mrfreeze]

Damnit Marky, I'm now running late for work because I couldn't stop reading that. Great job though!

[Belz...]

Sauce for the goose, belz--Tote that barge! Lift that Bale! ;) :D

Press on.

Hutch, for that, it'll be the 5th level for you. TRAITOR !!! ;)

[Belz...]

Whats sad is the level of pathetic ignorance there is among some of you "people" (?)

HAHAHA!! Sentinel thinks we're not really humans!! Are we ALIENS, Sen ?


One if you're not caught up on your LC crew being government snitch operation the you're dumber than you think,really.

"If you don't agree with me, you're stupid". Sounds like Interesting Ian to me!

lgf: red and green anti-semitism

Why would somebody admit to being an imforment for the hatecrimes branch of the RMCP?

SF/Indymedia-open letter to all Indymedia outlets

Why when this same person was involved with this group, would the group break up because of secrurity risk and police imformant?

Why do you keep posting their crap, giving them constant commercial air time ?

I know why because you're playing two sides of the same conter-feit coin.

a B-52 bomber crashed into the Empire state building ? Isn't Korey looking for terrorist but then went AWOL to join the cause and yet theres still a B-52 bomber crashing?

This is clearly a dis-imfo op and you're giving them Commercial Air time.

Its all very clear now.

Hey!! I can do that too:

Thirty riders competed for a top ten spot in the finals and after riding pretty well l in prelims I unluckily received the evil 11th place. I pulled all my tricks and was happy with it all, but I understand that I didn’t really kill it on the three sets so I know why I got 11th.

Nyquist was riding well after having a rough couple of months with his hands and seams to be on top of things again, He proceeded through to the finals and managed a flip nothing on the right side final set, and took a bonus check for best trick. Nyquist was happy to finish 3rd.

Parslow has been putting in a lot of time on the bike lately and it showed, frontward flip no handers on the first set, backwards flip-whips first set, and 360 whips mid set. Luke has the reputation to either get top three or get 20th, but I’m pretty sure he’s determined to be on top this year. He’s looking really confident right now, 2nd place finish.

[Belz...]

French canadian?

When I lived in florida canadas french canadians used to come there acting like their ***** didn't stink. They were rude as hell and use to get mad if the "help" didn't speak french to them.

Is this what you rep Belch ?

Incredible. No wonder you're this unintelligible. So... you hate people from other countries, you hate your government and you hate your fellow Americans... Well!! I think it's time for you to leave for planet mars. At least you stand little chance of hating your neighbors, there.

[Belz...]

If anyone is interested, there is a someone less 'frothing at the mouth' CT'er on the Screw Loose Change message board. It should be more interesting that waiting for Sentinel to become coherent.

http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/index.php

Where exactly ?

[brodski]

I was actually thinking that Sentinel's posting style when he's frothing is rather like Nicnac's... maybe it's just me.
We'll only know for sure when he takes a stance on being able to see Fowlsound's chickens or not....

[aggle-rithm]

Incredible. No wonder you're this unintelligible. So... you hate people from other countries, you hate your government and you hate your fellow Americans... Well!! I think it's time for you to leave for planet mars. At least you stand little chance of hating your neighbors, there.

"Lousy fossilized microbes....think they're so special..."

[kookbreaker]

Where exactly ?

Look for 'Bogglehead'. He left for a few days and while his arguements have much the same flaws as any CTer he at least isn't seeing Mossad agents under his bed.

[Gravy]

Gravy, I have to be honest. DJLegacy utterly destroyed your Viewers Guide to Loose Change with his debunk. All of your "information" is debunked with hard-hitting facts that are not backed up by any sources (but I am sure he used some). He shows that you were completely wrong with rebuttals such as

[QUOTE]Anyway, why would someone who insures a building want to destroy it?
Unbeliavable. Hello, insurance fraud?


Well, at least someone gave it the old college try. He just went to a bad college. I don't think that was DJLegacy, though, or did I miss something? Interesting that he doesn't think that the conclusions of experts who were involved in the 9/11 investigation should be given more weight than the opinions of non-experts who were not involved.

He doesn't seem to understand the context of several of my statements. The last quote above is a good example. I was referring to the insurance company, not to Larry Silverstein.

That reply was similar to the emails I get from CTs who aren't Loosers. "Yes, Loose Change is a piece of crap and bravo to you for proving it. But why do you neglect to say that flight 93 was shot down?"

[Gravy]

The reason I came here in the first place was in response to your "TROLL"
remark about me being a "Crackpot"
Can you be more specific?

I raise valid points that you and associates claim you can't read and you all turn into a bunch of sissys complaining you don't understand the contex?

No, you throw out random, disconnected, semiliterate statements and when we tell you that's not productive, you call us "sissys."

Again. Will you try this? Choose a topic. Just one, Sentinel. Present it for discussion. Discuss it. When the discussion is over, or when you don't see it going any farther, choose another topic.

Is that really so difficult? Please try it. It's what adults do.

[Gravy]

Why do you keep posting their crap, giving them constant commercial air time ?

This is clearly a dis-imfo op and you're giving them Commercial Air time.


Its all very clear now.



Sentinel
You need to upgrade to JREF 2006.3. It's commercial-free!

[Bronze Dog]

One thing I find funny is that CTers always seem to think that governments are monolithic entities. We have two major political parties full of internal conflicts, politicians complaining about other politicians receiving $20 gifts, multiple organizations all fighting for funding, etcetera, and yet, somehow they all come together and agree that killing nearly 3,000 people and covering it up with a Goldbergian conspiracy is an effective way to... what was it they were supposed to be up to, again?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

You need to upgrade to JREF 2006.3. It's commercial-free!

I've also had good luck with JREF Satellite radio.

[MarkyX]

[QUOTE=Class;1717771]Gravy, I have to be honest. DJLegacy utterly destroyed your Viewers Guide to Loose Change with his debunk. All of your "information" is debunked with hard-hitting facts that are not backed up by any sources (but I am sure he used some). He shows that you were completely wrong with rebuttals such as




Well, at least someone gave it the old college try. He just went to a bad college. I don't think that was DJLegacy, though, or did I miss something? Interesting that he doesn't think that the conclusions of experts who were involved in the 9/11 investigation should be given more weight than the opinions of non-experts who were not involved.

He doesn't seem to understand the context of several of my statements. The last quote above is a good example. I was referring to the insurance company, not to Larry Silverstein.

That reply was similar to the emails I get from CTs who aren't Loosers. "Yes, Loose Change is a piece of crap and bravo to you for proving it. But why do you neglect to say that flight 93 was shot down?"

Don't worry, I got your back on this idiot :)

Still need feedback, because I want to post it on the main site.

[Apollyon]

One thing I find funny is that CTers always seem to think that governments are monolithic entities. We have two major political parties full of internal conflicts, politicians complaining about other politicians receiving $20 gifts, multiple organizations all fighting for funding, etcetera, and yet, somehow they all come together and agree that killing nearly 3,000 people and covering it up with a Goldbergian conspiracy is an effective way to... what was it they were supposed to be up to, again?
Bah. That two-party stuff is just there to throw everyone off the trail.

Rove, Cheney, Kerry, and Pelosi are probably in the vast underground complex of Bohemian Grove right now clinking together lead crystal glasses full of baby's blood and laughing uproariously at their duping of the sheeple.

[Gravy]

Anybody read this yet? It's from an article called "Professors of Paranoia? Academics give a scholarly stamp to 9/11 conspiracy theories" By JOHN GRAVOIS -- Chicago -- Chronicle of Higher Education -- June 23, 2006
http://chronicle.com

Good article. Thanks for the link. I love the fact that Fetzer has never seen 911myths.com, but he thinks it must be disinfo.

[Gravy]

Debunking the Debunker.

Need feedback.

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/debunking_the_debunker.htmGood job. He really makes some wild assumptions and doesn't present supporting evidence. I get a big kick out of this comment:
Gravy: "What the various explosions reported would have to do with CD, I don’t know."

Debunker: "Controlled demolition usually involves bombs. I don't find the reports of bombs exploding at the time of jetliner impact to be convincing, either, but it is this section that you really work at being stupid."

:eek:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Good article. Thanks for the link. I love the fact that Fetzer has never seen 911myths.com, but he thinks it must be disinfo.

Yeah, no observational/confirmation bias going on there.

[JamesB]

LOL You gotta love the intro.

LC2E is far too speculative. I greatly dislike the style in which it casts suspicion on the passangers of the flights, or at least on the fact that they ever made phone calls. I think that its heavy emphasis on the Pentagon strike is most unfortunate. (For the record, I believe that all four flights, AA11, UA175, UA93 and almost certainly AA77 as well, were involved in the attacks, including impacts.) I do not contest the grievous factual errors in the third of the film that deals with the Pentagon, especially the following:

"the impact hole was 16 feet wide"
"9ft of concrete had to be penetrated"
"an A3 SkyWarrior hit the Pentagon"
"no or very little wreckage was found"
"blue tarp covered evidence"
"markings on grass could have been attack guidance"
And even in the text he concedes other things wrong with the movie. OK, other than this really long list of things factually incorrect in the movie... there is nothing wrong with it.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

LOL You gotta love the intro.


And even in the text he concedes other things wrong with the movie. OK, other than this really long list of things factually incorrect in the movie... there is nothing wrong with it.

[hippy voice|Dennis Hopper]
You gotta understand, maan! We're just asking questions, maaaan. The movie is supposed to make you think, maaan. It doesn't need to be right, as long as it gets you to ask questions, maaan.
[/hippy voice|Dennis Hopper]

[pgwenthold]

Gravy: "What the various explosions reported would have to do with CD, I don’t know."

Debunker: "Controlled demolition usually involves bombs. I don't find the reports of bombs exploding at the time of jetliner impact to be convincing, either, but it is this section that you really work at being stupid."

Actually, the criticism here is not really that far-fetched, and I suspect it is an issue of brevity. If you don't know what explosions have to do with CD, then you are being stupid. Of course, that's not what you mean, here, but in the quote, it comes off that way.

Yeah, it's trivial to dismiss the explosions as having any meaning at all, but it is not done out of hand, and takes some explaining. It's a common problem in these types of things. It's easy to throw out a bunch of random comments that seem significant, but the refutation of each is a long process.

In this case, I think the better approach is to not question the relationship between explosions and CD, but to focus on establishing the relationship between explosions and non-CD. If you want to be blunt, something like "Are they suggesting that explosions would not occur during the falling of the building without CD? " and then go on to explain all the possibilities.

[JamesB]

Wow, the Loosers are cocky for people completely without substance.

Dylan, this is exactly the type of response that could be avoided if you'd just face Roberts squarely. Those of us who are already familiar with what you're about know this hit-piece is a joke, but people who aren't look at this thing as though it brings up legitimate concerns, and then they look back to you to see how you respond, and when you respond with it's not worth your time, it makes the concerns seem all the more legitimate.

agree with broadlinger that you're not responsible for leading others to the truth, and whatever you do is your own choice and people can take it or leave it, but for your own sake and for your reputation within and outside of the Truth Movement I think you should sit down with Jason and Korey and pore over Roberts' documents and get intimately familiar with them and figure out how you're going to respond because you're going to hear it echoed more and more everywhere you go because these things are spreading far and wide and the skeptics are getting more and more vocal and visible.


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&st=90

[chipmunk stew]

Speaking of lacking substance, check out this thread of irony about Steven Jones' surprising revelation that he has acquiring a physical sample from WTC that, according to his analysis, shows clear evidence of Thermate:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6763

A sampling:
Good scientists are always cautious. Thats why they make bad politicians.
I've listened to interviews with him and I got the impression that he considered it preliminary because he was waiting for peer review of his results.
Highlights the difference between NIST "scientists" and a real scientist.

:dl:

[JamesB]

Huh? Weren't they just complaining that the NIST reports are taking so long? All those trained experts in structural engineers and fire safety just don't know what they are doing I guess.

[Gravy]

In this case, I think the better approach is to not question the relationship between explosions and CD, but to focus on establishing the relationship between explosions and non-CD. If you want to be blunt, something like "Are they suggesting that explosions would not occur during the falling of the building without CD? " and then go on to explain all the possibilities.
Yes, I had done that, and the debunker didn't take that into account. In the quote above I was talking about the issue of random explosions being heard over a period of an hour: what could they have to do with CD?

What struck me about his reply is his assertion that bombs are used in CD work.

[Belz...]

Unbeliavable. Hello, insurance fraud?

Ah, yes. I can see it from here.

Insurance company president: "HAHAHAHAHA!! once the twin towers is gone, we'll get all the money!!"
Employee: "Sir, won't WE have to pay for that ?"
Insurance company president: "Mouahahahahahah!!"

Or, simply put:

Step 1 : Destruction of the WTC
Step 2 : ?
Step 3 : Profit.

[Belz...]

Bah. That two-party stuff is just there to throw everyone off the trail.

Rove, Cheney, Kerry, and Pelosi are probably in the vast underground complex of Bohemian Grove right now clinking together lead crystal glasses full of baby's blood and laughing uproariously at their duping of the sheeple.

Nice try, but no. I'd know about that.

[Belz...]

[hippy voice|Dennis Hopper]
You gotta understand, maan! We're just asking questions, maaaan. The movie is supposed to make you think, maaan. It doesn't need to be right, as long as it gets you to ask questions, maaan.
[/hippy voice|Dennis Hopper]

Alternatively, replace Dennis Hopper with Dylan Avery and change the "maaan"'s by "I mean"s.

[Bronze Dog]

Or, simply put:

Step 1 : Destruction of the WTC
Step 2 : ?
Step 3 : Profit.
http://www.sciencecartoonsplus.com/gallery/math/math07.gif

[Belz...]

"agree with broadlinger that you're not responsible for leading others to the truth"

Notice how they phrase things like religious nuts: "leading others to the truth".

[JamesB]

Wasn't that a Sprint commercial?

It is my own little way of sticking it to "the man".

But sir, you are "the man".

Maybe...

[JamesB]

They are religious nuts, they have their saints, their miracles, their statements of faith, even their schisms.

[kookbreaker]

Speaking of lacking substance, check out this thread of irony about Steven Jones' surprising revelation that he has acquiring a physical sample from WTC that, according to his analysis, shows clear evidence of Thermate:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6763

A sampling:

:dl:

Yeah, I asked this elsewhere, but since when is chromium such a large compund of structural steel? I thought that was the compound that makes steel shiny and rustproof, a feature not required by structural steel. I was under the impression that the major compound in structrual steel is Manganese.

Am I wrong here?

[Brainster]

They are religious nuts, they have their saints, their miracles, their statements of faith, even their schisms.

It's funny but I was thinking that maybe the way to make money off this is to form the Church of Conspiratology, with varying levels and seminars/books/films to advance oneself to the next level. Lower levels get bigfoot, UFOs and cattle mutilation, mid-levels get the Kennedy conspiracy, black box voting, and the moonwalk, while only the upper levels can discuss 9-11, OKC, and PNAC.

Along the way we always stress the mantra, "Everything you know is wrong", and when the suckers reach the highest level (CT-Clear) (and we can't wring any more seminar fees from them) we tell them "Everything we taught you is wrong".:D

[Brainster]

Yeah, I asked this elsewhere, but since when is chromium such a large compund of structural steel? I thought that was the compound that makes steel shiny and rustproof, a feature not required by structural steel. I was under the impression that the major compound in structrual steel is Manganese.

Am I wrong here?

Maybe he's referring to the structural steel that is part of the exterior?

[Pidge]

Or, simply put:

Step 1 : Destruction of the WTC
Step 2 : ?
Step 3 : Profit.

Been reading too much Slashdot, have we?

[Sentinel]

5/23/2006 12:08PM

Dylan Avery said....

"No finnman, I am not an anti-semite. I am not a racist by any means. I happen to think white people are one of the most dangerous races out there, though."



I swear I've seen this episode (Crazy white People) on NG.




Sentinel

[JamesB]

It's funny but I was thinking that maybe the way to make money off this is to form the Church of Conspiratology, with varying levels and seminars/books/films to advance oneself to the next level. D


I'll go in with you 50-50. I knew getting an MBA would pay off!

Hell, Dylan and Co. claim to have sold 50,000 copies. At $17.95 a pop, that definitely beats their previous jobs at Pizza Hut.

[Sentinel]

On a side note:

Anyone catch Frontline last night ?
"The Darkside of Cheney"




Sentinel

[kookbreaker]

Maybe he's referring to the structural steel that is part of the exterior?

Wasn't that Aluminum?

And how would he determine if his sample was from the exterior? As it is he cannot even establish that this piece is from the WTC!

[Sentinel]

Thats the reason why they shined when the towers were first built. The exterior wals were coated with it.




Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

On a side note:

Anyone catch Frontline last night ?
"The Darkside of Cheney"

Sentinel

'fraid not. Synopsis?

[Sentinel]

It was quite a dose.

They went through the 9-11 event stating there was a belief that there were 6 hijackings and that the government believed they shot down two flights including 93. the other flight was not IDd.

The fact that cheney was not evacuated till after the second tower was hit raises redflag,though. because he stated on "meet the press" that the SS was in communication with the FAA after the first tower was struck. Then during the Manetta testemony He was giving orders from the PEOC when 77 was inbound to the pentagon. there was manetta stating that a thied person came in with the inbound report and was asking if the "orders" still stood? At which time it was reported that Cheney turned to the person stating that the "order" still stood and "did person hear him say otherwise" in a nasty tone.


I made a copy of it (frontline) and will be selling through third party for $17.95



Take care



Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

It was quite a dose.

They went through the 9-11 event stating there was a belief that there were 6 hijackings and that the government believed they shot down two flights including 93. the other flight was not IDd.

The fact that cheney was not evacuated till after the second tower was hit raises redflag,though. because he stated on "meet the press" that the SS was in communication with the FAA after the first tower was struck. Then during the Manetta testemony He was giving orders from the PEOC when 77 was inbound to the pentagon. there was manetta stating that a thied person came in with the inbound report and was asking if the "orders" still stood? At which time it was reported that Cheney turned to the person stating that the "order" still stood and "did person hear him say otherwise" in a nasty tone.


I made a copy of it (frontline) and will be selling through third party for $17.95



Take care



Sentinel


Saving for posterity, since this appears to be a claim of plans to commit copyright infringment.

[Brainster]

Wasn't that Aluminum?

And how would he determine if his sample was from the exterior? As it is he cannot even establish that this piece is from the WTC!

Not sure; the specs for the WTC structural steel (http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3A.pdf) mention "A-441 with CR and increased CU" (Chromium and Copper), and the only mention of Aluminum is in a company name, so unless the Aluminum was an exterior cladding over the steel columns...

[60hzxtl]

Saving for posterity, since this appears to be a claim of plans to commit copyright infringment.


And now that you know about it - it's a conspiracy.

[Sentinel]

Lol

[Sentinel]

Yeah, I have this nice Madison ave gig and we're going to sell 50.000 copies with no IRS inquiery.



We're going to exploit the crap out of it till people become deconditioned to the whole event and don't give a crap about it anymore.


Thats the program that LC and other in the So-called movement run on. Its called the de-con operation. So much disimformation is being posted by these people that many of us that are actually investigating 9-11 are becoming disinchanted with it. Its like after Kennedy assassination when everyone wanted to get to the truth and there was cointel putting out the BS.


Here comes the new BS, same as the Old BS.





Be safe, stock provisions




Sentinel

[Overman]

I drop in every so often on these loose change forums....

FYI you CTer's.....I don't think anyone here believes something just because the government told them....Everyone here presents logical arguements, reasoning, and critical thinking that leads them to conclusions. You guys should try it!

I really can't believe all of you even respond to these crazies anymore...I think anyone that is 'brave' enough to come in here making claims is not the kind of person who is seeking facts, or willing to change their opinion.....I figure it for a waste of my time, and I figure them for a waste of space.

Nonetheless I once again compliement you all for your work here and patience....thank you for being our mental garbage men.

Matt

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Yeah, I have this nice Madison ave gig and we're going to sell 50.000 copies with no IRS inquiery.



We're going to exploit the crap out of it till people become deconditioned to the whole event and don't give a crap about it anymore.


Thats the program that LC and other in the So-called movement run on. Its called the de-con operation. So much disimformation is being posted by these people that many of us that are actually investigating 9-11 are becoming disinchanted with it. Its like after Kennedy assassination when everyone wanted to get to the truth and there was cointel putting out the BS.


Here comes the new BS, same as the Old BS.





Be safe, stock provisions




Sentinel


More archiving, nothing to see here.

[Sentinel]

You're a player hater who seems to give off vibes like your jealous of the LC group. Is that true? Is this what you're about?


I bet you were one of those kids that used to get beat up in scholl and now you're on some mind trip to get back at all the people you feel hostile to.





You've got to get a life, dude.
You're taking your trip too seriously.




Sentinel

[Sentinel]

Or maybe its something else entirely..........






Sentinel

[sat556]

You're a player hater


What does that mean?

[Gravy]

Thats the reason why they shined when the towers were first built. The exterior wals were coated with it.

Sentinel
The exterior steel beams were covered with aluminum panels.

[Gravy]

Sentinel,



It would be really nice




and considerate




if your posts




didn't look




like this.


Can you please try to condense them? I'm wearing out my scroll wheel. You don't win anything here for taking up the most space. And when people want to quote you, they either have to take up all that space again, or reformat your post. The signature line isn't necessary. Your username appears on each post.

[Sentinel]

poopie


the


player



Hater



Sentinel

[sat556]

player



Hater


Ffs! What is that?

[Gravy]

Who is is "poopie" and "dog poop?" Why are you saying that?

[Walk The Line]

poopie


the


player



Hater



Sentinel


How old are you? 16?

[Gravy]

Ffs! What is that?
It's urban slang. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Don%27t+Hate+The+Playa%2FPlayette+ Hate+The+Game

[sat556]

It's urban slang. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Don%27t+Hate+The+Playa%2FPlayette+ Hate+The+Game


*shudder*

:D Ta x

[money]

Ffs! What is that?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=player+hater

Apparently Sentinel sees himself as a player. Whoever dog poop is, s/he is interfering in Sentinel's game.

Or something.

Really, Sentinel is more like each and every definition chump.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chump

[Hutch]

Ffs! What is that?

It's a sports term that is way overused by certain juveniles and sportcasters on the ESPN Sports network.

As far as I can tell, it means that those of us who can't do things (like hit a home run or win a basketball game with a 3-point shot) shouldn't criticize or denegrate those who can--in other words, respect the skill level and don't "hate the player" because he is doing something you can't.

As a sports metaphor it has already outlived its' useful life, IMHO. As a description as to how Setinel sees himself, I have no doubt in his mind it is quite accuate.

As for the rest of us, well, to paraphrase from Mr. Robin Williams:

"Sentinel is playing A Beautiful Mind--The Home Game"

Press on

edited to add: when I started this message, there was no description--then 3 of you beat me to it!! (*(%^^$%#$#$%^

[sat556]

Really, Sentinel is more like each and every definition chump.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chump

Definition #6... :D

[Belz...]

Been reading too much Slashdot, have we?

Huh ? That was a South Park reference...

[Belz...]

The fact that cheney was not evacuated till after the second tower was hit raises redflag,though.

Does it now ?

[Belz...]

You're a player hater who seems to give off vibes like your jealous of the LC group. Is that true? Is this what you're about?

I bet you were one of those kids that used to get beat up in scholl and now you're on some mind trip to get back at all the people you feel hostile to.

You've got to get a life, dude.
You're taking your trip too seriously.

I bet you're deviating from the actual "debate" because you've got nothing else to say.

And what the hell are you babbling about, anyway ?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=player+hater

Apparently Sentinel sees himself as a player. Whoever dog poop is, s/he is interfering in Sentinel's game.

Or something.

Really, Sentinel is more like each and every definition chump.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chump

...I see...

<backs away slowly>

[MarkyX]

Quick question about THermite.

I've seen some videos where the Thermite actually COOLS quite quickly..so does it mean that there isn't a possibility about "Molten Steel created by Thermite" within a 8 week period?

[Pidge]

Huh ? That was a South Park reference...

Ah, OK, I've not followed SP closely enough to link it to SP. It keeps coming up on /. There's at least one posts per topic in /. giving a variation of the three or four step plan to Profit!

[Gravy]

Quick question about THermite.

I've seen some videos where the Thermite actually COOLS quite quickly..so does it mean that there isn't a possibility about "Molten Steel created by Thermite" within a 8 week period?
Thermite burns very quickly. The CT claim is that the thermite created a lot of molten metal in the process of attacking the columns in the basement in order to aid the demolition. They have zero evidence of this, but that doesn't stop them from making the claim. This does not help their CD argument in the least.

[Gravy]

Snappy slogans for the dead, anyone?

QUOTE (sandboxface @ Jun 22 2006, 06:06 PM)

I see people want to respect the fallen. There is really only one way to do that: Demand a complete and transparent investigation of the facts that both led up to and allowed the events of that day to transpire. Anything less than this is a diservice to all the victims of 9/11 both the dead and the living.
SandBoxFace, you're hitting the nail on the head.

Your comments are both penetrating and compelling.

What we truthers now need to do is to encapsulate that concept into a snappy slogan or a ready retort in order to silence the naysayers and placate those whose emotions are inextricably linked with 9/11.

Any ideas anyone?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5532341

[Orb]

How about "While you read Gravy, we piss on Graves"

[WildCat]

Ah, OK, I've not followed SP closely enough to link it to SP. It keeps coming up on /. There's at least one posts per topic in /. giving a variation of the three or four step plan to Profit!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpants_Gnomes

[dubfan]

I'll tell you who the real piece of work is in that thread: Guileless Guy.

Fair Jessica made the mistake of expressing sympathy for two American soldiers (23 and 25 years old) who were tortured and beheaded.

I read other people's comments. I made my own comment even though it may have overlapped a little.

You are sympathizing with the aggressors and murderers of innocent people there, majorily. That is a true American right there?!

You feel sorry for how people now kill, as the article states, in terms of defensive warfare and securing their homeland?

Throughout the world today, there is no LEGITIMATE OFFENSIVE war.

You sound like the American sympathizers and the ones that cry for pity for the soldiers' deaths.

First off, I am not talking about the Iraqis. The problem I have is your sympathy for people, although I agree to that they were perhaps young and brainwashed, but still they were culprits, who had freewill to go there and are accountable for the most part.

The families, I don't have sympathy for. Why should I? Its not guilt by association. It is rather that they failed into persuading them not to go to war. That is how I see it. The intellect of the youth that went there had more time to be nurtured and molded on a low sociological level, but there was failure in this department, and hence these people went to a constant aberration that lead to their demise.

The 9/11 victims' relatives can correspond to the Iraqi victims' relatives, as both suffered, and continue to do so, unjustly. The soldiers are combattants much like the perpetraitors of the whole 9/11 plot, so why should they and their relatives have my sympathy? That was a bad comparison, Jessica, and I thought you knew better.

[Orb]

Ugh, I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[delphi_ote]

You're a player hater who seems to give off vibes like your jealous of the LC group. Is that true? Is this what you're about?


I bet you were one of those kids that used to get beat up in scholl and now you're on some mind trip to get back at all the people you feel hostile to.





You've got to get a life, dude.
You're taking your trip too seriously.




Sentinel
Thank you, Sentinel. Your posts have done more than any of us could to expose true nature of the Loose Change movement.

[Class]

I'll tell you who the real piece of work is in that thread: Guileless Guy.

Fair Jessica made the mistake of expressing sympathy for two American soldiers (23 and 25 years old) who were tortured and beheaded.
All of his comments are offensive in so many ways. :mad:

[gumboot]

Step 1 : Destruction of the WTC
Step 2 : ?
Step 3 : Profit.


:eek:

I knew it was the underpants gnomes all along.

-Andrew

[dubfan]

I want to preface this with a couple of thoughts. I am now looking at the Pentagon incident from the point-of-view of a remotely guided aircraft that has a minimum wingspan of 100 feet and a maximum wingspan of approximately 140 feet. I have been compelled to do this after spending a significant amount of time reviewing all evidence in great detail. My point-of-view from the beginning has been a no-plane scenario. For me it is time to consider the alternatives.

There are way too many problems with a Hollywood pyrotechnic show endorsed by fake witnesses, crooked rescuers, needlessly blown up lamp poles (2 explosives each), planted plane parts, vanishing planes, 59 missing people and on and on. Many questions are simply answered by an aircraft hitting the building.

Gee, Russ..you don't say?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6166

[JamesB]

Wow, the Loosers discover Occam's Razor.

[gumboot]

Wow...

It's incredible the way they explain away the details... two explosives per light, carving chunks out of generators, MY GAWD. They are desperately clinging to their fantasy.

That's my favourite thing. Someone like this "Russ" offers a way out, an alternative explanation that fits the evidence, and they ignore it! It's FAR more realistic that they swapped the light poles and carved holes in the generator. Uh huh.

Simply because they can't understand the physics of what happens in such situations. According to the official data, the jet fuel itself severed many of the columns in the Pentagon. I bet they won't believe THAT!

-Andrew

[60hzxtl]

Can anyone id' the opening footage of LC?

The Helicopter shot of the Statue of Liberty?

Is it from the feature film Working Girl?
http://imdb.com/title/tt0096463/

If so, the pilot is Al Cerullo, an incredibly talented pilot, whose work does not come cheap.

Would be a pity to see that puuuurty opening shot have to go away, but I think the owner might want to be paid for that stolen shot.

Hey, I won't get a dime for it, but I'm just asking questions.

[chipmunk stew]

How about "While you read Gravy, we piss on Graves":dl:

[chipmunk stew]

Can anyone id' the opening footage of LC?

The Helicopter shot of the Statue of Liberty?

Is it from the feature film Working Girl?
http://imdb.com/title/tt0096463/

If so, the pilot is Al Cerullo, an incredibly talented pilot, whose work does not come cheap.

Would be a pity to see that puuuurty opening shot have to go away, but I think the owner might want to be paid for that stolen shot.

Hey, I won't get a dime for it, but I'm just asking questions.Dylan said it's from "Joe's Apartment", I believe.

[60hzxtl]

Dylan said it's from "Joe's Apartment", I believe.


I guess the film makers told him it was ok, help yourself.

Joe's apartment shot is also Al Cerullo's work. He's the best, and most expensive in town.

[Hutch]

Gee, Russ..you don't say?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6166

I tend to like reading Russell Pickering; While I completely disagree with his conclusion that there was something conspiratorial about the Pentagon strike, he at least has shown signs of doing his own research and making conclusions that might be against his own preferences when the evidence takes him there.

Kinda wish we could get him over here for a good discussion, instead of the current crop (sentinel, christophera, umbinger). Someone who could at least make us stretch our thinking muscles while holding a relativley polite conversation.

And we might yet turn him to the Dark Side....:cool: :p :D

[Brainster]

Gee, Russ..you don't say?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6166

Falling back to the next redoubt?

Anybody ever put together a guide to all the people? Not so much for the purposes of rounding them all up in our special neocon prisons, you understand (as useful as that might be), but just so we can understand who believes what conspiracy, or if they don't endorse a specific version, they're just "asking questions", then which questions?

We could come up with an easy taxonomy on the CTers. Although the possibilities seem endless, they're fairly finite.

1. Overarching Plot:

a. 19 Hijackers controlled by Osama Bin Laden (Official Theory)
b. 19 Hijackers controlled by Osama Bin Laden and allowed to operate the 9-11 mission by persons in the US government. (LIHOP)
c. Plot perpetrated by US government, means indeterminate. (MIHOP)

2. World Trade Center 1 (North Tower): Attack

a. Hit by American Airlines Flight #11, a 767.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Not hit by a plane.

3. World Trade Center 2 (South Tower): Attack

a. Hit by United Airlines Flight #175, a 767.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Not hit by a plane.

4. Pentagon: Attack

a. Hit by American Airlines Flight 77, a 757.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Not hit by a plane.

5. Flight 93

a. Crashed in Shanksville, PA.
b. Shot down.
c. Landed elsewhere.

6. WTC 1,2: Collapse

a. Structural failure due to impact and fires.
b. Controlled demolition.
c. Other cause.

7. WTC 7: Collapse

a. Structural failure due to impact of collapsing building and fires
b. Controlled demolition.
c. Other cause.

8. Who's really behind it

a. Al Qaeda
b. PNAC/Neocons/Zionists
c. Other people

I think that largely covers it, except for one addition to each list:

d. Refuses to disclose

We all know this one. "We don't know what happened, we're just asking questions." I could add a question about what happened to all the passengers on the planes if they were not used in the crashes, but most of the CTers know enough to throw their hands up in the air.

[milesalpha]

A quick question that I am hoping someone can update me on. I have been trying to look into the Jones paper a bit but have had a rough time finding certain information, here's what I am curious about.

1. They say it is peer reviewed but where?
2. Due to questions about the quality of the initial peer review, it is going to be published in a journal in 2007. Which one? And why wait so long?

Thanks.

[Hellbound]

2. World Trade Center 1 (North Tower): Attack

a. Hit by American Airlines Flight #11, a 767.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Hit by something else
d. Not hit: hologram/illusion...damaged by other methods.

3. World Trade Center 2 (South Tower): Attack

a. Hit by United Airlines Flight #175, a 767.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Hit by something else
d. Not hit: hologram/illusion...damaged by other methods.

4. Pentagon: Attack

a. Hit by American Airlines Flight 77, a 757.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Hit by something else
d. Not hit: hologram/illusion...damaged by other methods..

5. Flight 93

a. Crashed in Shanksville, PA
b. Shot down.
c. Landed elsewhere/false plane crashed.
d. Landed elsewhere/no crash occured.

8. Who's really behind it

a. Al Qaeda
b. Bush & cronies
c. PNAC/Neocons/Zionists
d. Other people
e. Everyone except the CTers.


Just seperated a few of the categories to more clearly delineate ;)

[dubfan]

A quick question that I am hoping someone can update me on. I have been trying to look into the Jones paper a bit but have had a rough time finding certain information, here's what I am curious about.

1. They say it is peer reviewed but where?

It was peer reviewed by other 9/11 conspiracy theorists, who happen to be physicists. Hence the "peer" review -- don't think for a minute it was peer reviewed by structural engineers. The review took place before publication in a book on 9/11 conspiracies. IIRC (but I'm not sure) it's in an anthology of 9/11 CT articles edited by David Ray Griffin. I could be wrong about that last point. Relying on memory here.

2. Due to questions about the quality of the initial peer review, it is going to be published in a journal in 2007. Which one? And why wait so long?


That, I don't know.

[Kiwiwriter]

It was peer reviewed by other 9/11 conspiracy theorists, who happen to be physicists. Hence the "peer" review -- don't think for a minute it was peer reviewed by structural engineers. The review took place before publication in a book on 9/11 conspiracies. IIRC (but I'm not sure) it's in an anthology of 9/11 CT articles edited by David Ray Griffin. I could be wrong about that last point. Relying on memory here.



That, I don't know.

It's sort of how neo-Nazis will quote each other as proof the Holocaust didn't happen. It just goes round and round in an endless circle....but never outside of the circle.

[Brainster]

It was peer reviewed by other 9/11 conspiracy theorists, who happen to be physicists. Hence the "peer" review -- don't think for a minute it was peer reviewed by structural engineers. The review took place before publication in a book on 9/11 conspiracies. IIRC (but I'm not sure) it's in an anthology of 9/11 CT articles edited by David Ray Griffin. I could be wrong about that last point. Relying on memory here.

Here's a link to a letter (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Comments_Jones_05May2006.html) from a "Scholar" to the head of the engineering department at BYU asking them to take down their disclaimer. The relevant section (Item #6) reads:

One of Dr. Jones’s research papers ["Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?"] has undergone relevant and sufficient peer-review, and has been accepted for publication in a book to appear later this year, titled "9/11 and the American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out" (Northampton, Mass: Olive Branch Press, 2006), edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott. In fact, as you may know, this paper had been peer reviewed for a publication by Elsevier Press. But after the stated concerns about "rigorous technical peer review," the paper was withdrawn and submitted to a different publication and peer reviewed again. One of the editors, while maintaining anonymity of the reviewers, disclosed that four PhDs reviewed this paper, two of whom were physicists (and thus peers).

I'm not an academic; is anonymous peer review typical? I could understand anonymity if the paper is rejected. Note that this letter is coming from a philosophy professor, citing an unknown publication, an unknown editor and unknown physicists. This does not exactly inspire great confidence.

[kookbreaker]

Here's a [
I'm not an academic; is anonymous peer review typical? I could understand anonymity if the paper is rejected. Note that this letter is coming from a philosophy professor, citing an unknown publication, an unknown editor and unknown physicists. This does not exactly inspire great confidence.

As I understand it, anonymous peer review is done, but within speciality journals, and you can be assured that those peers are specialists in the subject of the journal.

This publication, and Griffin's little journal, is using that aspect of peer reivew to hide the fact that they really have no relevant experts agreeing with them.

[dubfan]

Oh, now *this* is entertaining.

Merc the Jerk has claimed to have discovered the foolproof technique for silencing skeptics (which is basically, if jets are such effective tools for controlled demolition, why don't professional demolition experts bring down buildings by flying jets into them?). He posted this twice -- once in the WTC sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6780&view=findpost&p=5523576), and then again, with a link to his original post, in the Skeptics sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6831&view=findpost&p=5545875).

So then I replied -- twice. Once in the Skeptics sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6831&view=findpost&p=5546970), and then again, via a link to my original post, in Merc's original WTC thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6780&view=findpost&p=5547405).

Except, as you'll note if you followed that last link, he's deleted my post. Twice. The first time I posted, he just deleted it without saying anything. So I posted my reply again, along with the editorial comment "the way you silence skeptics is by deleting their posts". He deleted that one too, and replaced it with a post of his own, saying "No skeptics allowed."

:D

[JamesB]

This is the book. Anonymous review seems a bit bogus. If someone believes in your book, what good is their word if they are not willing to put their reputation on the line to vouch for it publicly?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1566566592/sr=8-5/qid=1151081419/ref=pd_bbs_5/103-1241019-6801455?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Anyone want to read my paper on the grand unifying theory? It was been peer reviewed by 20 PhDs, including 4 Nobel Prize winners. Anonymously, of course....

[chipmunk stew]

Oh, now *this* is entertaining.

Merc the Jerk has claimed to have discovered the foolproof technique for silencing skeptics (which is basically, if jets are such effective tools for controlled demolition, why don't professional demolition experts bring down buildings by flying jets into them?). He posted this twice -- once in the WTC sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6780&view=findpost&p=5523576), and then again, with a link to his original post, in the Skeptics sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6831&view=findpost&p=5545875).

So then I replied -- twice. Once in the Skeptics sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6831&view=findpost&p=5546970), and then again, via a link to my original post, in Merc's original WTC thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6780&view=findpost&p=5547405).

Except, as you'll note if you followed that last link, he's deleted my post. Twice. The first time I posted, he just deleted it without saying anything. So I posted my reply again, along with the editorial comment "the way you silence skeptics is by deleting their posts". He deleted that one too, and replaced it with a post of his own, saying "No skeptics allowed."

:DThe blank looks he gets from skeptics when he takes this approach is not the look of someone who is thinking, "Man, I don't know--he really got me there!" It's the look of someone who's thinking, "It's probably a lost cause trying to explain the complex question fallacy to this guy."

edit--dubfan, you must have missed the sign when you tried to climb up into the treehouse to visit the LC club with their newspaper hats and wooden swords.
"NO SKEPTIKZ ALLOWD!!!"

[JamesB]

Hey, now they have their own journal, open only to conspiracy nutbars of course. How "scholarly".

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

[dubfan]

Merc's reply after being confronted with having deleted my posts, twice:

I know since I posted it in the Skeptics forum, they would try and bring it here.

Straight up, as an Admin and the OP, I WILL delete any trollish comments or Skeptic comments.

0 Tolerance.

:D

[Brainster]

Hey, now they have their own journal, open only to conspiracy nutbars of course. How "scholarly".

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

Check out the WTC7 paper by Kuttler, in which he proves that WTC7 could not have collapsed by pancaking from the top. Of course, since nobody claims that WTC7 came down that way the value of this particular paper is minimal.

[dubfan]

Hey, now they have their own journal, open only to conspiracy nutbars of course. How "scholarly".

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

The Dixon paper's pretty hilarious, too. On the Opie & Anthony show, one of their call-in guests was an airline pilot who flew into LaGuardia, right past the towers, some time after they'd been hit.

[chipmunk stew]

Merc's reply after being confronted with having deleted my posts, twice:



:DYou've gotta admire their...nevermind, there's nothing to admire.

"Fire Damage":

NIST Metallurgical Team/Dr. Frank Gayle, August 2003 AP news...

ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse."

"most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C (or 500F)."
It always bothers me the way this quote is misinterpreted. NIST did not rule out weakened steel as a contributing factor in the collapse. Which is clear when the quote is read in its original context.

[chipmunk stew]

The Dixon paper's pretty hilarious, too. On the Opie & Anthony show, one of their call-in guests was an airline pilot who flew into LaGuardia, right past the towers, some time after they'd been hit.I'm fairly certain that the plane(s) shown in the pictures in Dixon's paper would have been clearly identified and in communication with the control tower, and that the control tower would have made a vigilant effort to get assurances that the plane(s) were under no distress.

[Brainster]

Oh, now *this* is entertaining.

Merc the Jerk has claimed to have discovered the foolproof technique for silencing skeptics (which is basically, if jets are such effective tools for controlled demolition, why don't professional demolition experts bring down buildings by flying jets into them?). He posted this twice -- once in the WTC sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6780&view=findpost&p=5523576), and then again, with a link to his original post, in the Skeptics sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6831&view=findpost&p=5545875).

So then I replied -- twice. Once in the Skeptics sub-forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6831&view=findpost&p=5546970), and then again, via a link to my original post, in Merc's original WTC thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6780&view=findpost&p=5547405).

Except, as you'll note if you followed that last link, he's deleted my post. Twice. The first time I posted, he just deleted it without saying anything. So I posted my reply again, along with the editorial comment "the way you silence skeptics is by deleting their posts". He deleted that one too, and replaced it with a post of his own, saying "No skeptics allowed."

:D

He's back to that idiotic "this was such a neat and tidy demolition" bit. Where do they get off with that? Three buildings other than the towers (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2116/144/1600/WTCdamagedBuildings.gif) completely collapsed, four others partially collapsed, ten buildings suffered major damage and something like 20 other buildings suffered moderate damage.

[pgwenthold]

He's back to that idiotic "this was such a neat and tidy demolition" bit. Where do they get off with that? Three buildings other than the towers (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2116/144/1600/WTCdamagedBuildings.gif) completely collapsed, four others partially collapsed, ten buildings suffered major damage and something like 20 other buildings suffered moderate damage.

This is perhaps the most useful graphic posted in any of these threads.

Shoot, just the fact that WTC7 sustained damage at all rules out the claim that they "fell in their own footprint." 1 Liberty Plaza got damaged, and it looks like it is a long block separated from WTC 2.

Upon closer inspection, the best way to describe it is that 1 Liberty Plaza is basically 2.5 WTC2 widths away from the base of WTC2, and yet sustained damage. WTC2 fell into "its own footprint"? The damage on 1 Liberty Plaza indicates a damage area 36 times the size of the WTC2 footprint!*


*1 Liberty Plaza is 2.5 WTC2 diameters from the edge of WTC2, 3 diameters from the center. Assuming a circular damage area, the footprint would be proportional to the WTC2radius^2. 1 Liberty Plaza is 6 radii away (3 diameters), which would be a damage area of (6*WTC2radius)^2 = 36*WTC2radius^2 = 36*1 footprint

[pgwenthold]

So as I implied in my last post, I really like the damage map provided by brainster. Kudos.

I have done some analysis based on that picture. The first thing I did was to draw a circle (dashed line) around each of the towers to try to include most of the damaged areas. Thus, I set the size of the circle large enough to cover the damage to the south and SW of WTC2, assuming that building is the cause of the damage. Similarly, I drew a (dashed) circle around WTC1 large enough to include most of the damage to the north. You can see that these regions overlap strongly. The circle for WTC1 might be a little small, but I keep it conservative.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/210449c3d8a22403.gif

To characterize the fall of the towers, I then cut the diameters of those circles in half. This is what I would say is the estimate of the area on which the towers fell,* indicated by the solid circles.

Did the towers "fall on their own footprint"? Hardly. The falling area for WTC2 is 16 times the area of WTC2 itself. The inner damage area for WTC1 is 18 times the area of WTC1.

A couple of comments:
1) First, just looking at the picture it is clear that you cannot explain the extensive damage to surrounding areas by towers "falling into their own footprint." Buildings very far away were damaged.
2) It's easy to underestimate the difference between area and distance. Even keeping all the debris within one building radius of the building perimeter produces FOUR times the area in which stuff can fall. As such, the density is going to be a lot less over that whole area. Ask a CTer how much area would a building fall into if it weren't a free fall. 10 times the area? Heck, 10 times the footprint is still barely big enough to get across the road, and shouldn't damage the WFC buildings or the Verizon building. The fact that WFC2 and WFC3 and the Verizon building sustained major damage tells you that it fell into more than 10 times its footprint.


*To ROUGH approximations, if we treat the falling as a gaussian distribution, and consider the solid circle to include about 95% of the damage, then that would correspond to 2 standard deviations. Thus, the inner circle would constitute about 1 standard deviation, or 65% of the damage. That's why I just cut it in half.

(Edited to correct the figure legend)

[CptColumbo]

So as I implied in my last post, I really like the damage map provided by brainster. Kudos.

I have done some analysis based on that picture. The first thing I did was to draw a circle (dashed line) around each of the towers to try to include most of the damaged areas. Thus, I set the size of the circle large enough to cover the damage to the south and SW of WTC2, assuming that building is the cause of the damage. Similarly, I drew a (dashed) circle around WTC1 large enough to include most of the damage to the north. You can see that these regions overlap strongly. The circle for WTC1 might be a little small, but I keep it conservative.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/210449c381fd6cea.gif

To characterize the fall of the towers, I then cut the diameters of those circles in half. This is what I would say is the estimate of the area on which the towers fell,* indicated by the solid circles.

Did the towers "fall on their own footprint"? Hardly. The falling area for WTC2 is 16 times the area of WTC2 itself. The inner damage area for WTC1 is 18 times the area of WTC1.

A couple of comments:
1) First, just looking at the picture it is clear that you cannot explain the extensive damage to surrounding areas by towers "falling into their own footprint." Buildings very far away were damaged.
2) It's easy to underestimate the difference between area and distance. Even keeping all the debris within one building radius of the building perimeter produces FOUR times the area in which stuff can fall. As such, the density is going to be a lot less over that whole area. As a CTer how much area would a building fall into if it weren't a free fall. 10 times the area? Heck, 10 times the footprint is still barely big enough to get across the road, and shouldn't damage the WFC buildings or the Verizon building. The fact that WFC2 and WFC3 and the Verizon building sustained major damage tells you that it fell into more than 10 times its footprint.


*To ROUGH approximations, if we treat the falling as a gaussian distribution, and consider the solid circle to include about 95% of the damage, then that would correspond to 2 standard deviations. Thus, the inner circle would constitute about 1 standard deviation, or 65% of the damage. That's why I just cut it in half.

Which direction did WTC 7 fall? Was it south? Could some of the damage to the north of the complex be attributed to 7's collapse? Was collateral damage taken into account for this diagram?

I'm just asking for clarification.

[dubfan]

So as I implied in my last post, I really like the damage map provided by brainster. Kudos.

I have done some analysis based on that picture. The first thing I did was to draw a circle (dashed line) around each of the towers to try to include most of the damaged areas. Thus, I set the size of the circle large enough to cover the damage to the south and SW of WTC2, assuming that building is the cause of the damage. Similarly, I drew a (dashed) circle around WTC1 large enough to include most of the damage to the north. You can see that these regions overlap strongly. The circle for WTC1 might be a little small, but I keep it conservative.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/210449c3d8a22403.gif

To characterize the fall of the towers, I then cut the diameters of those circles in half. This is what I would say is the estimate of the area on which the towers fell,* indicated by the solid circles.

Did the towers "fall on their own footprint"? Hardly. The falling area for WTC2 is 16 times the area of WTC2 itself. The inner damage area for WTC1 is 18 times the area of WTC1.

A couple of comments:
1) First, just looking at the picture it is clear that you cannot explain the extensive damage to surrounding areas by towers "falling into their own footprint." Buildings very far away were damaged.
2) It's easy to underestimate the difference between area and distance. Even keeping all the debris within one building radius of the building perimeter produces FOUR times the area in which stuff can fall. As such, the density is going to be a lot less over that whole area. Ask a CTer how much area would a building fall into if it weren't a free fall. 10 times the area? Heck, 10 times the footprint is still barely big enough to get across the road, and shouldn't damage the WFC buildings or the Verizon building. The fact that WFC2 and WFC3 and the Verizon building sustained major damage tells you that it fell into more than 10 times its footprint.


*To ROUGH approximations, if we treat the falling as a gaussian distribution, and consider the solid circle to include about 95% of the damage, then that would correspond to 2 standard deviations. Thus, the inner circle would constitute about 1 standard deviation, or 65% of the damage. That's why I just cut it in half.

(Edited to correct the figure legend)

Very helpful. Can I post this at LC? (or perhaps you would like to -- I'd encourage you to do so if you are so inclined)

[Gravy]

We could come up with an easy taxonomy on the CTers. Although the possibilities seem endless, they're fairly finite.
1. Overarching Plot:

That's a good, simple list. I think one addition could be made:

9) Whom do you REALLY think is responsible (c'mon, we won't tell)

A. The Jooooos

B. The Jooooos

C. Bohemian Grover

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/8790449c421845c17.jpg

[Ducky]

Bohemian Grover totally ripped off the joooooos.

[Gravy]

Oh, now *this* is entertaining.

Merc the Jerk has claimed to have discovered the foolproof technique for silencing skeptics ...
Except, as you'll note if you followed that last link, he's deleted my post. Twice. The first time I posted, he just deleted it without saying anything. So I posted my reply again, along with the editorial comment "the way you silence skeptics is by deleting their posts". He deleted that one too, and replaced it with a post of his own, saying "No skeptics allowed."

:D
Porca Miseria! When he gets out of high school he'll find that the delete key doesn't work so well in real-life situations.

[Sentinel]

I just copied a show of the National Geographic Channel where the Controlled Demolition Group UK, showed how they take down steel structures. they use a combonation "Jelly Mix" something like Thermite but quicker on the steel member joints.


Nice map brainster




Sentinel

[Gravy]

Hey, now they have their own journal, open only to conspiracy nutbars of course. How "scholarly".

http://www.journalof911studies.com/
OMG. The "Flying Elephant" paper is a doozie. "Guess what I discovered was in the world's most heavily-traveled airspace at the time of the attacks in New York: airplanes!!!!!!!!!!"

I cannot believe how stupid these people are.

eta: Oops. You're all way ahead of me.

[CptColumbo]

Dubfan, you got banned?

Any idea why?

[dubfan]

Dubfan, you got banned?

Any idea why?

Nope, not banned. Merc just kept deleting my posts. My account was still active as of a few seconds ago.

Skeptics are forced to stay in their "cage" now. Seriously. That's the term they used.

[Gravy]

Which direction did WTC 7 fall? Was it south? Could some of the damage to the north of the complex be attributed to 7's collapse? Was collateral damage taken into account for this diagram?

I'm just asking for clarification.

It mostly fell, like the other buildings, straight down. Significant parts of it went across Barclay Street to the north and nearly destroyed 30 W. Broadway.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/8790449b8276ba3e1.jpg

[dubfan]

OMG. The "Flying Elephant" paper is a doozie. "Guess what I discovered was in the world's most heavily-traveled airspace at the time of the attacks in New York: airplanes!!!!!!!!!!"

I actually laughed out loud at that. That, and 60hzxtl's earlier link to your secret CIA activities.

[CptColumbo]

Nope, not banned. Merc just kept deleting my posts. My account was still active as of a few seconds ago.

Skeptics are forced to stay in their "cage" now. Seriously. That's the term they used.

Are they still claiming to defend the Constitution (as long as you agree with them)?

[pgwenthold]

Which direction did WTC 7 fall? Was it south? Could some of the damage to the north of the complex be attributed to 7's collapse? Was collateral damage taken into account for this diagram?



I was concerned about WTC7, so when it comes to WTC1, I focused mainly on the west. The WFC2 and WFC3 buildings, in particular. Coincidentally or not, making the ring big enough to cover WFC3 puts it right out to about Murray St.

Not also that I assumed a circular area of damage, and it could easily be distorted one direction or another.

[JamesB]

I just copied a show of the National Geographic Channel where the Controlled Demolition Group UK, showed how they take down steel structures. they use a combonation "Jelly Mix" something like Thermite but quicker on the steel member joints.




Thermite is not even used in demolitions. It is not an explosive.

[pgwenthold]

Very helpful. Can I post this at LC? (or perhaps you would like to -- I'd encourage you to do so if you are so inclined)

I'd never waste my time there, so you can do it if you want.

In the end, though, you don't need my figure. Just show the original and ask, if it came down "in its own footprint," how did all that stuff get damaged so far away?

[dubfan]

I'd never waste my time there, so you can do it if you want.

In the end, though, you don't need my figure. Just show the original and ask, if it came down "in its own footprint," how did all that stuff get damaged so far away?

They like pictures over there.

[CptColumbo]

They like pictures over there.
Shiny, shiny pictures.

BTW I'm still suspended.

[Johnny Pixels]

Shiny, shiny pictures.

BTW I'm still suspended.

You ask too many questions captain.

[azazal]

You ask too many questions captain.

I thought you only had to ask one over there - "Can you explain you rules on banning?"

[Gravy]

I'd never waste my time there, so you can do it if you want.

In the end, though, you don't need my figure. Just show the original and ask, if it came down "in its own footprint," how did all that stuff get damaged so far away?
People who never visited the WTC have a very hard time envisioning how tall the towers were. Their height (more than a quarter-mile) made them very close to all the surrounding buildings, in terms of the potential energy available to eject debris. For example, some CTs make a fuss about WTC 7 being 300 feet away from the north tower. Well, that's less than 1/4 the height of the tower. It's REALLY CLOSE. The photo below gives a better idea of the scale of things than looking at a two-dimensional plan.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/8790449c4fed7b6fe.jpg

[Blackwell]

So as I implied in my last post, I really like the damage map provided by brainster. Kudos.

(...lots of explanation and map image edited out...)

nice work, pgwenthold. Is it possible to indicate the direction each plane took? (I'm not asking you to edit your image - a quick text explanation would suffice.) Thanks!

[Montoya]

Oh, now *this* is entertaining.

Merc the Jerk has claimed to have discovered the foolproof technique for silencing skeptics (which is basically, if jets are such effective tools for controlled demolition, why don't professional demolition experts bring down buildings by flying jets into them?).

It seems our dear friends have run out of ideas. Not exactly worthy adversaries. For some reason they do everything they can to avoid talking to skeptics, as if living under an evil government that kills thousands of its own people to advance a few vague goals is such a desirable notion. If I were a believer in 911 conspiracies, I'd be happy to let someone convince me it was only a few crazy arabs, and that our government can be trusted after all.

[JamesB]

Merc the Jerk has claimed to have discovered the foolproof technique for silencing skeptics (which is basically, if jets are such effective tools for controlled demolition, why don't professional demolition experts bring down buildings by flying jets into them?).

This is like saying, I could remove an infected tooth by repeatedly smashing you in the face with a wrench, so why don't dentists do that as it would be cheaper than oral surgery?

[pgwenthold]

People who never visited the WTC have a very hard time envisioning how tall the towers were. Their height (more than a quarter-mile) made them very close to all the surrounding buildings, in terms of the potential energy available to eject debris. For example, some CTs make a fuss about WTC 7 being 300 feet away from the north tower. Well, that's less than 1/4 the height of the tower. It's REALLY CLOSE. The photo below gives a better idea of the scale of things than looking at a two-dimensional plan.


"REALLY CLOSE" in a relative sense, I agree. But in terms of "in its own footprint" it's not really that close. WTC7 is almost 2 WTC1 diameters away from WTC1. Is falling on the ground three buildings away "in its own footprint'? If so, then they are using the word in a way that I don't understand.

[Regnad Kcin]

It seems our dear friends have run out of ideas. Not exactly worthy adversaries. For some reason they do everything they can to avoid talking to skeptics, as if living under an evil government that kills thousands of its own people to advance a few vague goals is such a desirable notion. If I were a believer in 911 conspiracies, I'd be happy to let someone convince me it was only a few crazy arabs, and that our government can be trusted after all.Yes, but that wouldn't be as kewl, or gnarly, or whatever inane term the kids are using these days.

Welcome to the forum.

[pgwenthold]

nice work, pgwenthold. Is it possible to indicate the direction each plane took? (I'm not asking you to edit your image - a quick text explanation would suffice.) Thanks!

I haven't a clue.

That's the beauty of it all. I did it without any consideration of any of the factors of 9/11. All I needed to know is that buildings fell down, and the rest is evident on the diagram.

The big question that I really wonder about is the comparison with an actual CD. When a controlled demolition is carried out, what do the engineers expect for the damage area? This must depend on the size of the building, but how is the question.

[CurtC]

I just got my weekly "What's New" email from Bob Park:
2. CONSPIRACIES: PHYSICIST'S NEW THEORY IS AS GOOD AS HIS FIRST.
A few weeks ago a cab picked me up at the U. of Wisconsin Physics
Dept. to take me to the airport. The driver began, "You a
physicist? I like physics. You know this guy Steven Jones?
He's a physicist. He proved the World Trade Center couldn't have
fallen that fast on 9/11 unless it was rigged with explosives."
I'd heard it before. Today there's a good story about Jones and
the 9/11 "conspiracy" by John Gravois in the Chronicle of Higher
Education. Seventeen years ago Steven Jones imagined that cold
fusion is responsible for Earth's molten interior. That's what
led Fleischmann and Pons to rush into print with their dumb idea.

What's New is available at http://www.bobpark.org

[dubfan]

nice work, pgwenthold. Is it possible to indicate the direction each plane took? (I'm not asking you to edit your image - a quick text explanation would suffice.) Thanks!

Roughly speaking, the north tower (WTC1) was hit from the north (in its north-facing wall by a plane traveling south), and vice versa for WTC2.

The NIST/FEMA public summary shows the impact attitudes of the aircraft in 3D. The plane that hit WTC1 hit nearly dead-on, in the center, wing level.

The plane that hit WTC2 was rolled more to the left (IIRC) and hit at an angle, near a corner.

[Blackwell]

I haven't a clue.

That's the beauty of it all. I did it without any consideration of any of the factors of 9/11. All I needed to know is that buildings fell down, and the rest is evident on the diagram.

Although, I don't think you can say that all of the damage indicated on the diagram came from the collapse; one of the videos of the second plane clearly shows large chunks of plane/building ejecting quite a distance away, which could possibly account for some of the more isolated damage shown on the diagram (for instance, the small island of "moderate damage" on the right side of the diagram.)

The big question that I really wonder about is the comparison with an actual CD. When a controlled demolition is carried out, what do the engineers expect for the damage area? This must depend on the size of the building, but how is the question.
Good question. I can't even imagine an actual CD of a building of this size; how would you go about dismantling a quarter-mile-high building?

ETA: Thanks, dubfan!

[pgwenthold]

Although, I don't think you can say that all of the damage indicated on the diagram came from the collapse; one of the videos of the second plane clearly shows large chunks of plane/building ejecting quite a distance away, which could possibly account for some of the more isolated damage shown on the diagram (for instance, the small island of "moderate damage" on the right side of the diagram.)


In principle, I could try to identify the damage that was caused by the plane impact and separate that out. If it is listed in the 911 Commission report.

Can someone post the link to the 911 Commission report? I might look into it this weekend.

[dubfan]

Good question. I can't even imagine an actual CD of a building of this size; how would you go about dismantling a quarter-mile-high building?

Silly person. Why, nuclear bombs in the basement! And thermite! Duh.

ETA: Thanks, dubfan!

No prob, but Gravy or 60hzxtl or another New Yorkistan type should double-check me on that.

[dubfan]

In principle, I could try to identify the damage that was caused by the plane impact and separate that out. If it is listed in the 911 Commission report.

Can someone post the link to the 911 Commission report? I might look into it this weekend.

You probably want the NIST/FEMA report, the "Public Summary" document that has the timeline in it.

http://wtc.nist.gov/

[pgwenthold]

I think the commission report has a better narrative, though, and it may be easier to find the information.

[Gravy]

In principle, I could try to identify the damage that was caused by the plane impact and separate that out. If it is listed in the 911 Commission report.

Can someone post the link to the 911 Commission report? I might look into it this weekend.
The damage caused to other structures by the planes would have been very small, compared to the damage done by the buildings. AFAIK there were no fires in other buildings that were caused by plane debris. Some larger, heavier plane parts made it through the buildings (engine parts, landing gear, seats), but basically there was a spray of thousands of smaller items from the buildings and planes that covered a wide area. In April and May this year they discovered around 600 bone fragments on top of the Deutsche Bank building (130 Liberty St.) from the north tower impact.

[dubfan]

I think the commission report has a better narrative, though, and it may be easier to find the information.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/

[Pardalis]

A politician in Montréal, named Amir Khadir (Iranian of course), recently said he agrees that there should be an international investigation about 9/11, saying that "we shouldn't brush off the conspiracy theories so easily", but at the same time he says he agrees that the official story of the Al Qaeda attack is right.

So why would we need an investigation in the first place? Can someone point me out the logical fallacy here?

[delphi_ote]

Can someone point me out the logical fallacy here?
I think it's the "whoring yourself out for votes from people who are too paranoid to leave the house" fallacy.

[gumboot]

Which direction did WTC 7 fall?

I'm not sure overall, but I know it partially fell on 30 West Broadway, which is to the NE of WTC7.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

I haven't a clue.

That's the beauty of it all. I did it without any consideration of any of the factors of 9/11. All I needed to know is that buildings fell down, and the rest is evident on the diagram.



Chapter One (http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch1.pdf) of the FEMA report includes a number of diagrams. Figure 1-4 (on page 6) shows a 3d graphic of the direction the aircraft hit the towers, and the resulting trajectory of aircraft debris that landed on surrounding buildings.

It includes landing gear on the first, landing cnr Rector and West Sts.

From the second:
Fuselage, roof of WTC5
Landing Gear - roof of 45 Park Pl
Engine - intersection of Murray and Church Sts

-Andrew

[MarkyX]

A politician in Montréal, named Amir Khadir (Iranian of course), recently said he agrees that there should be an international investigation about 9/11, saying that "we shouldn't brush off the conspiracy theories so easily", but at the same time he says he agrees that the official story of the Al Qaeda attack is right.

So why would we need an investigation in the first place? Can someone point me out the logical fallacy here?

He is from Montreal. Nuff said.

[JamesB]

Loose Change forum quote o' the day. Keep in mind, this is from a defender of the movie.

I will concede Avery is hardly an investigative journalist, and also LC has massive material, factual, and logical errors.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6806

[pgwenthold]

I will concede Avery is hardly an investigative journalist, and also LC has massive material, factual, and logical errors. [/url]

"Other than that, Ms. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

[Belz...]

Oh, now *this* is entertaining.


Woah. This is what he has to say ?

Who said it was a conventional building implosion. One where they try and minimize damage to surrounding structures. One where they try and steer the direction of debris.

You really think the would be perpetrators were concerned with that?

So now it DIDN'T fall into its own footprint ?

[sat556]

Wtf? I thought the 'fell into it's own footprint' thing was their evidence that it was a CD? If they get rid of that, that should make a lot of the evidence they have been presenting irrelevant surely?

[Montoya]

Woah. This is what he has to say ?

So now it DIDN'T fall into its own footprint ?

CTer: look! it's a conspiracy, because the WTC collapse looks exactly like a controlled demo.

Skeptic: no, it doesn't. A controlled demo looks different. This looks like a natural collapse.

CTer: oh, yes, but it's a controlled demo faked to look like a natural collapse.

[Belz...]

He is from Montreal. Nuff said.

Meaning ?

[Brainster]

Woah. This is what he has to say ?



So now it DIDN'T fall into its own footprint ?

"Look, the flights are empty, they were trying to minimize casualties!"

"Look, the occupants of the North Tower were told to remain at their offices, they were trying to maximize casualties!"

"Look, the buildings collapsed neatly into their own footprint, they were trying to minimize casualties!"

[Brainster]

Dang, MR's a CIA spook (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=16569875)?

Dylan's apparently accused him of being CIA on his MySpace page (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=16569875). The accusation itself has been taken down, but you can see it reflected in one of the comments:

6/22/2006 9:24 AM

Is it true Mark Roberts is CIA? Some things in the Loose Change Viewer Guide seem plausible like the mysterious object that is mentioned being carried out by agents covered with a blue tarp being nothing but a tent. It looks exactly like the tents that were set up outside the Pentagon and it doesn't seem to be too heavy for the agents carrying it. I just like to see and here all sides. 3 sides to every story...2 different views and then the actual truth. I do agree with a lot of the things that Loose Change claims. You just never know. I wasn't actually there so I can only go by what people say, news reports (that have definately been known to be false), video, and audio evidence. Sometimes it gets confusing. Like how Loose Change says Flight 93 landed in Cleveland, OH but you have Alex Jones saying it was shot down and the debris of the plane was over an 8 mile wide area. Will someone please get back to me on the validity of the Loose Change Viewer's Guide by Mark Roberts? I would really appreciate it. Dylan's headline saying he's CIA wouldn't surprise me. Mark Roberts seems to be a genius on all the facts.

Those of us around here certainly agree with that last sentence!

[pgwenthold]

So now it DIDN'T fall into its own footprint ?

The best response in this case is to tell Merc to be sure to correct anyone then who actually claims it "fell in its own footprint" to help stop the spread of disinformation.

If they are interested in truth, then he should be willing to do it. If he doesn't, then apparently truth is not the issue.

[Stellafane]

Dang, MR's a CIA spook (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=16569875)?

Dylan's apparently accused him of being CIA on his MySpace page (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=16569875). The accusation itself has been taken down, but you can see it reflected in one of the comments...

Heh heh heh, so Gravy's in The Company, eh? In that case, tell Squeaking Eagle that Incontinent Hedgehog says "hey!"

(Gravy will know what that means.)

[Hellbound]

Heh heh heh, so Gravy's in The Company, eh? In that case, tell Squeaking Eagle that Incontinent Hedgehog says "hey!"

(Gravy will know what that means.)

The turtle is wearing a blue sweater. There is no monkey in the freezer.

I repeat, there is NO monkey in the freezer.

;)

[Gravy]

Heh heh heh, so Gravy's in The Company, eh? In that case, tell Squeaking Eagle that Incontinent Hedgehog says "hey!"

(Gravy will know what that means.)

It's called "Deep Uncover." (http://www.thestreaker.org.uk/main.htm)

eta: I do find it interesting that Avery doesn't know that the FBI handles domestic intelligence.

[MarkyX]

Meaning ?

For starters, Quebec is second place in terms 'rabid anti-americanism'. Second, he comes from a province that believes it's culture is superior than the rest of canada.

So we have an egomaniac iranian quebec fellow trying to give us their opinion. I'm just so sure that this gentleman doesn't have an agenda at all.

[JamesB]

It was there yesterday when I looked. I should have got a screenshot. Gravy, can you get me a job? I would prefer to be posted to Europe. The UK would be nice. Japan might be fun too.

[Sentinel]

Its like compound acid.... It melts steel.



Sentinel

[Sentinel]

The loosechange party is about to be turned up a notch.







Sentinel

[Hellbound]

Its like compound acid.... It melts steel.



Sentinel

So it's NOT like Thermite then. Gotcha. It's a non-explosive demolition agent. Nothing new.

It's not a 3000 degree burn that has to be held against a vertical steel column.

[JamesB]

Its like compound acid.... It melts steel.

I think someone has been doing too much acid.

[Hellbound]

I think someone has been doing too much acid.

Things like this do exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-explosive_demolition_agents

Of course, I haven't heard of one that works on steel like an acid.

So, Sentinal, got a source, or do you expect us to just take your word for it?

I expect you saw them using this on a buildings foundations, or other concrete structures (floors or a concrete cored building).

To my knowledge there isn't one for steel (and CDI's web page makes no mention of a non-explosive demolition agent they use at all).

[MikeW]

Heh heh heh, so Gravy's in The Company, eh?
It's the way they think... One favourite example for me.

One "inside job" theorist who had been emailing me for a while, wrote a long post on a forum, and tried to post a link to a photo on the FBI site. It came up not found, so he posted ominously about how it always used to work just fine, until he mentioned it to me.

I read this, clicked on the link, and indeed it didn't work. Why? I took a look, and he'd mistyped it: that's all. But it was much easier, more dramatic and doubtless flattering to his ego to pretend that I was some evil disinformation agent fighting his super-important work, rather than bother doing the tiniest bit of research (like "reading what you type").

[Gravy]

The loosechange party is about to be turned up a notch.

Can you be more specific? And can you condense your post format, please?

[Sal The Butcher]

let me say something reguarding loose change...
(btw, i dont punctuate or capitalize in forums)

people (unfortunitley) seem to know this film more then any other in the category...


i have been in contact with a few people who seem to believe that avery (the maker iof this series) has no interests other then making money, and establishing himself as a filmaker...

i have been told this by someone who has made a simmilar film among others involved in the truth movement...

my main problem with the loose change series is that its too suggestive, it presents a few facts, and then tells you what COULD have happened, this type of film will be HIGHLY effective among younger more suseptible people, but among an educated crowd the inconsistencies and sugestions will lead to the dissmissal of the rest of the film, there are quite a few films that are FAR less suggestive, and i hope to conduct many conversations here reguarding the events of 911

[Gravy]

let me say something reguarding loose change...
(btw, i dont punctuate or capitalize in forums)

people (unfortunitley) seem to know this film more then any other in the category...


i have been in contact with a few people who seem to believe that avery (the maker iof this series) has no interests other then making money, and establishing himself as a filmaker...

i have been told this by someone who has made a simmilar film among others involved in the truth movement...

my main problem with the loose change series is that its too suggestive, it presents a few facts, and then tells you what COULD have happened, this type of film will be HIGHLY effective among younger more suseptible people, but among an educated crowd the inconsistencies and sugestions will lead to the dissmissal of the rest of the film, there are quite a few films that are FAR less suggestive, and i hope to conduct many conversations here reguarding the events of 911
Welcome to the forum, Sal. Be sure to look around at the other subforums here. Lots of interesting discussions going on about all sorts of subjects.

I''m assuming that the other films you mentioned are 9/11 conspiracy-related. Can you recommend a film that you feel is factually accurate?

[Sal The Butcher]

Welcome to the forum, Sal. Be sure to look around at the other subforums here. Lots of interesting discussions going on about all sorts of subjects.

I''m assuming that the other films you mentioned are 9/11 conspiracy-related. Can you recommend a film that you feel is factually accurate?
most of the films either present the facts in a somewhat distorted manner, or make assumptions, and im pretty sure no film is completley innocent of this, from what i remember a film that is verry non-sugestive is 'EVERYBODYS GOTTA LEARN SOMETIME'
there is a point in the middle where movie clips are shown, its obvious why, but i feel its unecesary, and some are irrelevant

its less about the physical evidence

-

a movie that is VERRY unique (it is ACTUALLY a movie, NOT a documentary type film, but MANY interesting points are made) is 'WHO KILLED JOHN ONEIL'
both videos can be found and viewed for free on google video (video.google.com)

--
the best thing to do with ANY 911 film is watch it for references of documents and events, and then research said items, the films will reference things you may not have heard of otherwise, and thats the best use of the films, to view them to get an idea of what type of information is obtainable, NOT to obtain the information from them, they all tend to embelish and go off track

[brodski]

a movie that is VERRY unique (it is ACTUALLY a movie, NOT a documentary type film, but MANY interesting points are made) is 'WHO KILLED JOHN ONEIL'
both videos can be found and viewed for free on google video (video.google.com)
WKJO is the most "suggestive" of all, they are (as they openly admit) playing "6 degrees of separation", and then suggesting everyone in the chain is in on the conspiracy. On the other hand WKJO will never be "debunked" because
1) it makes very few claims, it just promotes guilt by association and
2) it is a work of fiction, it's not claiming to be a documentary, or dealing with facts, any inconvenient inconsistencies can just be dismissed as artistic license. You may as well "debunk" the DaVinci code or the x-files.

[Sal The Butcher]

WKJO is the most "suggestive" of all, they are (as they openly admit) playing "6 degrees of separation", and then suggesting everyone in the chain is in on the conspiracy. On the other hand WKJO will never be "debunked" because
1) it makes very few claims, it just promotes guilt by association and
2) it is a work of fiction, it's not claiming to be a documentary, or dealing with facts, any inconvenient inconsistencies can just be dismissed as artistic license. You may as well "debunk" the DaVinci code or the x-files.
its a movie, i said this, but it makes many interesting points

[brodski]

its a movie, i said this, but it makes many interesting points no, it doesn't any more than say "v for vendetta" does (which, unlike WKJO is a good movie). By making accusations as part of an admitted work of fiction, the makers avoid most criticism, or corrections.

[Sal The Butcher]

no, it doesn't any more than say "v for vendetta" does (which, unlike WKJO is a good movie). By making accusations as part of an admitted work of fiction, the makers avoid most criticism, or corrections.
the movie makes refernces to things that many are not aware of, and these things can be researched, i said in the initial post that the movies shouldnt be used to obtain information, but to get an idea of what information can be obtained, rest assured, someone learning the name 'barry seal' (for example) will be far more relevant then someone learning the name of the guy witrh the mask (sorry, i never saw v for vendetta)

[Ducky]

Sal, why exactly should I take a work of fiction such as WKJO and think it should be used as a guide to research anything?

By that logic using "Buckaroo Bonzai" as a guide I can research the 8th dimension eh?

[Sal The Butcher]

you have mistaken what i am trying to say, its irrelevant what inspires the research that leads to knowledge, but whatever, dont listen to me, i didnt tell you to

[Ducky]

No I see exactly what you are trying to say, and it is the equivalent of saying Oliver Stone's JFK is a good starting point for researching JFK's assasination.

Except it is not a good starting point. It is factually incorrect in many ways, and makes wild assumptions without supporting evidence.

Just like your movie, WKJO.


The difference is, Oliver Stone has the chops to pull off a good movie. The same can't be said for any movie made so far about 9/11 conspiracies.

[Sal The Butcher]

im saying that movie references ALOT of people many have NEVER heard of, thats why it is usefull, the names can be researched

[Sal The Butcher]

as far as the JFK assasination i have only seen one thing that has really seemed odd to me, there is a clip that supposedley shows the secret service reciecve an oreder to move away from the motorcade slightkly before JFK is shot

[Johnny Pixels]

No I see exactly what you are trying to say, and it is the equivalent of saying Oliver Stone's JFK is a good starting point for researching JFK's assasination.

Except it is not a good starting point. It is factually incorrect in many ways, and makes wild assumptions without supporting evidence.


That's not entirely true. JFK was one the film that led me to research the JFK assasination and started me on a journey that led me here. I do agree that it's a poor start for research because the first thing you have to do is research how little of the film is accurate though, but that could be a good way to sharpen your critical thinking and analysis skills.

[Ducky]

as far as the JFK assasination i have only seen one thing that has really seemed odd to me, there is a clip that supposedley shows the secret service reciecve an oreder to move away from the motorcade slightkly before JFK is shot



Please provide a source for that.

[Ducky]

That's not entirely true. JFK was one the film that led me to research the JFK assasination and started me on a journey that led me here. I do agree that it's a poor start for research because the first thing you have to do is research how little of the film is accurate though, but that could be a good way to sharpen your critical thinking and analysis skills.


Most people aren't going to be as critical. In fact, I would say that the only thing most people will be led to by JFK (and any CT movie) is a bunch of specious sites about CT. Yes you can find your way to good information, but only after sifting through a ton of google to get to it. What are the first 20 hits on google if you search for JFK and Assasination?

[Johnny Pixels]

Most people aren't going to be as critical. In fact, I would say that the only thing most people will be led to by JFK (and any CT movie) is a bunch of specious sites about CT. Yes you can find your way to good information, but only after sifting through a ton of google to get to it. What are the first 20 hits on google if you search for JFK and Assasination?

Unfortunately this is very true. It's a pity there's no requirement for things to be factual before they class themselves as documentaries.

[Johnny Pixels]

Actually things aren't that bad, the first hit is a debunk site http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Not that it will change CTs minds, as we've experienced with Christophera and others. That's quite scary really.

[Sal The Butcher]

Please provide a source for that.
im not sure what this clip is from, and im not sure if the video presented is taken out of context, but if this actually did happen just before he was shot it is quite odd

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5770984395481454022&q=kennedy+assasination

[chipmunk stew]

im saying that movie references ALOT of people many have NEVER heard of, thats why it is usefull, the names can be researchedTo what end? Do you suggest that it's productive to send people off on a snipe hunt?

I suggest that it's a time-wasting misdirection if the ultimate goal is truth.

But if you're looking to expand your hobby, I could supply you with a list of more names that you've never heard of and that have no substantial connection to 9/11.

[steve s]

the movie makes refernces to things that many are not aware of, and these things can be researched,

Shouldn't the makers of the film do that research before they go through the trouble of making the movie?

Steve S.

[Ducky]

im not sure what this clip is from, and im not sure if the video presented is taken out of context, but if this actually did happen just before he was shot it is quite odd

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5770984395481454022&q=kennedy+assasination


2 things:

1) That video gives no sources or interviews of who those agents are or who they are talking to. It makes assumptions with no supporting evidence or interviews confirming who those agents are.
2) Considering that turn to Elm drops the president right onto the freeway (on the following block), why would you have agents run along the car anyway? You're about to have a car doing 50+mph. Do you expect agents to run alongside or dangerously hang off the rear?

I see nothing odd in what you've presented.

[Sal The Butcher]

2 things:

1) That video gives no sources or interviews of who those agents are or who they are talking to. It makes assumptions with no supporting evidence or interviews confirming who those agents are.
2) Considering that turn to Elm drops the president right onto the freeway (on the following block), why would you have agents run along the car anyway? You're about to have a car doing 50+mph. Do you expect agents to run alongside or dangerously hang off the rear?

I see nothing odd in what you've presented.

i figured it was taken out of context

[Belz...]

For starters, Quebec is second place in terms 'rabid anti-americanism'. Second, he comes from a province that believes it's culture is superior than the rest of canada.

Or at least "distinct", whatever that means.

Yeah, you've got a point. And this is a cause of friction between me and my fellow Québécois.

[JamesB]

OMG the Loose Change Forum is hilarious. Here is someone bemoaning the fact that people have not caught on to the "truth".

I have always thoght that it were very high standard of educasion in physics and science in the US scholes.

I belive that it is only the question of time and information.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6806&st=60

And no, I did not change any of the spelling.