Loose Change - Part III

[JamesB]

My thought was that perhaps they cut it at an angle to have some control over which direction the column was going to fall over... just like people cut a tree.

You are correct, I thought at first he was talking about the angle of the torch which he brought up earlier. In the "Jones" photo he claimed that grooves were both too wide and not perpendicular, which he said would not happen. I showed him the pic of them cutting with a thermic torch holding it an an oblique angle, and he admitted it could. The angle of the cut is another issue, which is obviously also explained.

Of course none of this is actually ever explained by thermite, which now he apparently is saying he is not trying to do. Bizarre.

[Gravy]

My thought was that perhaps they cut it at an angle to have some control over which direction the column was going to fall over... just like people cut a tree.
Usually a crane cable would be attached to the top of the piece to keep it from falling over and to speed removal, but perhaps that couldn't be done in that case. There clearly is a steep slope heading towards the camera.

[Pardalis]

About half-way thru the film I found myself wondering what the lyrics to the music in the background meant. It was a very powerful device to see the translations, and then to hear one of the hijackers reading them back during his Last Will & Testament.


That's what's so powerful about the film. The music is so moving and beautiful that once you know what the lyrics mean, it becomes really disturbing.

[JamesB]

Well I linked "The Usual suspects" on Screw Loose Change. It was too good to wait any longer to promote. If Karim doesn't want me to (and I can't imagine why not) then just let me know and I will take it down.

[karim]

Thank you for all the comments.

I will do some fixing on it... when I have time. And I will upload a downloadable better resolution version soon.

Ofcourse you can link to this version if you want. After all it says at the end of the film that it's the first version. Yes, the Haznawi section is too long and other good points here also.

[RandFan]

Thank you for all the comments.

I will do some fixing on it... when I have time. And I will upload a downloadable better resolution version soon.

Ofcourse you can link to this version if you want. After all it says at the end of the film that it's the first version. Yes, the Haznawi section is too long and other good points here also.Karim, good job. I agree that the Haznawi section is to long.

[JamesB]

Thank you for all the comments.

I will do some fixing on it... when I have time. And I will upload a downloadable better resolution version soon.

Ofcourse you can link to this version if you want. After all it says at the end of the film that it's the first version. Yes, the Haznawi section is too long and other good points here also.

If it is OK with you, I will send off a pointer to the video blog Hot Air. They would most likely find this very interesting. We'll push you up the google charts!

[dubfan]

Do you think this is what it was like at the Council of Nicea?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6453&view=findpost&p=5657928

[Gravy]

There's some real wackiness on the 911 Studies forum. (http://www.atfreeforum.com/911studies/viewtopic.php?t=7&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=911studies) One poster, MMC, has made several jaw-droppers in just a few posts:

WTC 1: There Was No Inferno
WTC 2: There Was No Inferno
It doesn't matter...the impact of a plane, in terms of structural damage to the WTC, is a non event...
That's a lie. We know the impact of the plane did not do major structural damage...
Yes, I have read the NIST reports...
There is no evidence contained within them.

[Gravy]

Do you think this is what it was like at the Council of Nicea?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6453&view=findpost&p=5657928
Oh, my Lord! It's DJLegacy vs. TheQuest, with Phil Jayhan screaming for pod attention! It's like the WWE of CT!

[XXX]

It's like the WWE of CT!

They can battle it out in a steel cage (with a re-enforced concrete core).

[JamesB]

There's some real wackiness on the 911 Studies forum. (http://www.atfreeforum.com/911studies/viewtopic.php?t=7&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=911studies) One poster, MMC, has made several jaw-droppers in just a few posts:

I am writing up a paper in response to Legge's Evidence Suggests Complicity paper (I loved your response BTW). He failed to respond to my PNAC point, but I am building off of that.

I noticed one rather strange part of his paper.

In the case of the north tower, WTC 1, sufficient time was allowed between the plane impact and the demolition for evacuation of the building, at least for the part below the impact zone. This did not happen however with WTC 2, the south tower, the top of which started to topple over.6 This building started to collapse downwards within one second of it starting to tilt, which suggests the timing of the demolition was under the control of a close observer. The collapse started long before evacuation was complete, causing much loss of life.

A voiding unnecessary loss of life appears to have been a concern of the perpetrators, judging by what happened with WTC 1, but in the case of WTC 2 this concern apparently gave way to another. The change in procedure would have been due to the critical importance of maintaining the illusion that the buildings were destroyed by plane impact and fire. If the top of WTC 2 had tipped right over and had fallen to the ground the perpetrators would have found themselves in a dilemma. If they then demolished the lower unheated portion it would have been impossible to argue that fire in the top caused the collapse. If they left the lower portion standing it would have contained explosives which would lead to certain discovery of the plot. To avoid this dilemma the tower had to be dropped the moment it started to tip to conceal the use of explosives. History shows that this strategy was very successful in molding public opinion: very few people have become aware that explosives were involved.

While all his associates are arguing that there was no way it could collapse, he is arguing that it was collapsing. I wish they would make up their mind.

Although the idea that the top was going to flop over is rather amusing.

[Brainster]

Do you think this is what it was like at the Council of Nicea?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6453&view=findpost&p=5657928

You know, we might applaud them for dropping the pod/missile theory, but they appear to be solidifying around the bumble planes, with all that implies--no 767s into the towers, a missile into the Pentagon, lord only knows what they think crashed into Shanksville.

One of the interesting bits in the smorgasbord is the interview with "not the Green Party Candidate for Senate" Sander Hicks (who's a nutbar all on his own; Google him some afternoon when you've got a few minutes). Hicks hits on a fairly interesting little tale about the head of the Pakistani equivalent of the CIA (the ISI) and his relationship with then Congressman (and later CIA Director) Porter Goss and Senator Bob Graham of Florida, which led the three to be having breakfast together on 9-11. It is argued that the head of the ISI had wired Mohammed Atta $100,000 just before the 9-11 attacks

The story checks out at least on one side strongly. The Washington Post confirms the 9-11 breakfast between Goss, Graham and Mahmoud Ahmad, the head of the ISI. The other side is a little more tenuous. The Asia Times made the claim against Pakistan, which means that the story is suspect to begin with.

Still, it does have the necessary "woo" factor--the man who gave Mohammed Atta $100 large, also met with the future head of the CIA on 9-11? That breakfast will be featured prominently in conspiracy theories for a hundred years.

But I wonder if LC will use it? Hicks is a nut, and he adds nothing to the story, and he didn't get the Green Party nomination, anyway. Besides, if you buy somebody wiring Mohammed Atta $100,000, aren't you buying Mohammed Atta?

So where do they go with LCFC?

I'm going to take a WAG here and say that they double down with their theory of unknown objects into the WTC and Pentagon. They may need to jettison the Flight 93 stuff. It would get them out of one of their major headaches (the cellphone/Airfone calls)

[Gravy]

I am writing up a paper in response to Legge's Evidence Suggests Complicity paper (I loved your response BTW). He failed to respond to my PNAC point, but I am building off of that.

I noticed one rather strange part of his paper.

While all his associates are arguing that there was no way it could collapse, he is arguing that it was collapsing. I wish they would make up their mind.

Although the idea that the top was going to flop over is rather amusing.
Oy! What a dope!
He seems to think the top of WTC 2 tipped, then someone noticed that happening and detonated explosives to make it fall down, not over! Truly an extraordinary hypothesis. As any decent video shows, it tipped AS it was falling. The first – and uninterrupted – motion was down.

For those not following along, we're talking about a "Scholar for Truth."
:eek:

[JamesB]

Oy! What a dope!
He seems to think the top of WTC 2 tipped, then someone noticed that happening and detonated explosives to make it fall down, not over! Truly an extraordinary hypothesis. As any decent video shows, it tipped AS it was falling. The first – and uninterrupted – motion was down.

For those not following along, we're talking about a "Scholar for Truth."
:eek:

Not to mention that it would require incredibly quick reflexes.

[gumboot]

Oy! What a dope!
He seems to think the top of WTC 2 tipped, then someone noticed that happening and detonated explosives to make it fall down, not over! Truly an extraordinary hypothesis. As any decent video shows, it tipped AS it was falling. The first – and uninterrupted – motion was down.


I think this also contributes to the very short collapse time - they seem to begin it from the "dust cloud" moment at which the tipping upper section makes contact with the sub-impact section.

They miss the fact that the floors of impact collapsed together first, and the building began to fall (rotating slighting as it came down - not tipping) well before the dust clouds appeared.

-Andrew

[JamesB]

Fetzer is such an ass. I am listening to his interview with Alan Colmes and some guy came on and said his uncle died on United 93. He said his uncle was talking to his aunt during the flight when Fentzer started screaming hysterically, “You can’t make calls from flights, we have a scientist who is flying around the country trying this and you can’t make calls!”

The caller screamed back, “You ever been on a plane genius, they have phones on the back of the seat!”

I am going to have to start taking breaks from following these idiots, before I go postal on someone.

[Ducky]

There's a program on right now about the Pentagon, and the rebuilding and one of the workers who specifically requested to work to help rebuiild the pentagon did so because his kid was killed that day. He talks about how he walks his son's steps and that he feels fortunate that his son's body was recovered as a whole body.

He was very upset toward the end when he talked of getting a lock of his son's hair.

And these jerks desecrate that every time they spew their crap.

It pisses me off.

Every time I see Avery's public comments and especially that joking crap about the people on the flights makes me want to punch someone.

GARH. I have to go watch some Family Guy or something.

[Johnny Pixels]

I wouldn't be one to cast doubt on the impartiality of the mods on the LC forum, but as soon as London Eye appeared in a thread I was debating in, I got a 30 day suspension. I see this morning that it's been reduced to 3. Good job nothing over there is knee jerk reaction or anything.

[CurtC]

He was very upset toward the end when he talked of getting a lock of his son's hair.

And these jerks desecrate that every time they spew their crap.
You may not know, but the LC crowd accuses this man specifically of being in on the conspiracy, because he had had a talk with his son just the day before about death, and on 9/11 the man didn't go to work at the Pentagon but instead was playing golf. They say he callously helped murder his own son.

[Pardalis]

While all his associates are arguing that there was no way it could collapse, he is arguing that it was collapsing. I wish they would make up their mind.

Although the idea that the top was going to flop over is rather amusing.

Yeah, it reminds me of geggy boy's controlled-demo-made-to-look-like-a-fake-collapse-from-the-top theory, wich he hasn't completely explained yet.

geggy boy? Where's my geggy boy?

[Pardalis]

Not to mention that it would require incredibly quick reflexes.

and talk about improvisation...:rolleyes:

They're supposed to have had all this conspiracy figured out and planned so well...

It's like: "Let's prepare this event prefectly, as to no one noticing anything, then on the day let's just see how things happen and go from there".

Geez...

ETA: Wich reminds me of one of the main reasons I refuse the idea of a conspiration. The CT 9/11 is such a huge event, that the possibility of things srewing up are exponentially increasing with so many variables and people involved. To me no organisation (be it the infamous "Globalists" or whoever else) in their right mind would even risk it. The simpler the plot is, the better.

[Pardalis]

There's some real wackiness on the 911 Studies forum. (http://www.atfreeforum.com/911studies/viewtopic.php?t=7&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=911studies) One poster, MMC, has made several jaw-droppers in just a few posts:

I hadn't noticed that board before. This thread is moving so fast, I must have missed it.

You guys really nail that guy!

[MarkyX]

Fetzer is such an ass. I am listening to his interview with Alan Colmes and some guy came on and said his uncle died on United 93. He said his uncle was talking to his aunt during the flight when Fentzer started screaming hysterically, “You can’t make calls from flights, we have a scientist who is flying around the country trying this and you can’t make calls!”

The caller screamed back, “You ever been on a plane genius, they have phones on the back of the seat!”

I am going to have to start taking breaks from following these idiots, before I go postal on someone.

You should've got an MP3 of that.

[Belz...]

Not to mention that it would require incredibly quick reflexes.

It would also require that they know in advance that the top of tower 2 might tip over. That's quite a bit of planning, indeed.

Also, if they knew that it would tip over, that would invalidate the CTers' contention that the structural damage from the plane impacts and the fire was insufficient to cause a collapse! :boggled:

[JamesB]

I found it on the "scholars" site. I posted it on Screw Loose Change. The phone part is at 17 minutes or so. A warning, listening to this idiot will piss you off.

He is lying about the professor "flying all over the country" btw. The Achilles study was based on 2 cell phones flying somewhere over Canada. Ontario of I remember right.

[Belz...]

They say he callously helped murder his own son.

This is what anonymity does to you. You can say whatever you want and, apparently for some people, you actually DO.

[Brainster]

You should've got an MP3 of that.

You can download it from here (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/they-are-losing-it.html). Fetzer seems to be becoming the spokesman for these nutters, which is probably a good thing for our side. He'll be on Laura Ingraham tomorrow; I suspect that she'll fillet him.

Just listening to Fetzer on Colmes now; he repeats the nonsense about Underwriters' Laboratory certifying the structural steel.

[Belz...]

ETA: Wich reminds me of one of the main reasons I refuse the idea of a conspiration.

Your French is showing, Pardalis.

The CT 9/11 is such a huge event, that the possibility of things srewing up are exponentially increasing with so many variables and people involved. To me no organisation (be it the infamous "Globalists" or whoever else) in their right mind would even risk it. The simpler the plot is, the better.

Yes. Just hire a bunch of arab fundamentalists via a third party. Or something.

Anyway, THAT conspiracy theory would be easier to maintain.

[Pardalis]

Also, if they knew that it would tip over, that would invalidate the CTers' contention that the structural damage from the plane impacts and the fire was insufficient to cause a collapse! :boggled:

That's so good Belz! LOL

[JamesB]

You can download it here (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/media/060627_fetzer.mp3). Fetzer seems to be becoming the spokesman for these nutters, which is probably a good thing for our side. He'll be on Laura Ingraham tomorrow; I suspect that she'll fillet him.

Just listening to Fetzer on Colmes now; he repeats the nonsense about Underwriters' Laboratory certifying the structural steel.

Hey, don't link it directly, I am trying to drive traffic to the site. :D

[Pangea]

I noticed one rather strange part of his paper.
In the case of the north tower, WTC 1, sufficient time was allowed between the plane impact and the demolition for evacuation of the building, at least for the part below the impact zone.

I know this wasn't what you were pointing out in your post, but the first sentence made my made me sick to my stomach.
My husband's cousin was below the impact zone. She and 68 of her coworkers didn't make it out of the North Tower that day. I guess the evacuation time wasn't sufficient enough.

*edit to fix spelling

[Brainster]

Hey, don't link it directly, I am trying to drive traffic to the site. :D

Okay, changed my link to point to the blog post.

Fetzer is a complete nutter. I had been under the impression that the Scholars were mostly focusing on the CD aspect, but he buys into everything--Barbara Olsen's still alive in Europe, Flight 93 didn't crash in Shanksville.

I laughed out loud at the discussion of the cellphones/Airfones. Fetzer's smart enough to just keep talking, say anything, don't let the other guy get his point in. He cites Dewdney, claims wildly that the guy's flown all over the US testing this (Project Achilles was only done around one city--in Canada!), so therefore the cellphones couldn't work. Confronted by the Airfones, he claims that the hijackers wouldn't have allowed the people to use them, and besides, they require a credit card! Lord only knows what that's supposed to indicate; maybe his next thing is going to be to claim that the magnetic strip doesn't work on credit cards at altitude?

I'm starting to do a slow burn. It may be time to declare all-out war on the Scholars.

[realitybites]

I think it's great that Fetzer believes Barbara Olsen is alive and was arrested in Europe. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing he's referring to this story (http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/OlsenArrested.htm).

From the Sept. 22, 2005 expose:
The alleged 9.11 Pentagon crash victim was found to be in possession of millions in fake InterBank Italian lira currency, according to the agents.

Unfortunately, Italy had already been using the Euro currency for well over a year at that point. As far as the Polizia were concerned, Ms. Olsen might as well have been stealing a crap-load of those pink $500 Monopoly bills.

[Brainster]

I think it's great that Fetzer believes Barbara Olsen is alive and was arrested in Europe. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing he's referring to this story (http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/OlsenArrested.htm).

From the Sept. 22, 2005 expose:


Unfortunately, Italy had already been using the Euro currency for well over a year at that point. As far as the Polizia were concerned, Ms. Olsen might as well have been stealing a crap-load of those pink $500 Monopoly bills.

Yeah, that's the story. Not to mention that even when the Lira was a currency, a couple million would buy you a slice of pizza.

Fetzer's a couple bezels shy of a diffuser case. He appears to have bought into Dylan Avery's version of the conspiracy.

Alright, I'm angry now. I'm going to go after the Scholars with everything I've got. Anybody who's compiled information on these guys, I want to know about it. I know James has a spreadsheet on them. Laura Ingraham is going to have Fetzer on tomorrow. I'm going to transcribe a few of the choicer bits from the Colmes show and send them to her; I think she'll be very angry at the Barbara Olsen's alive claim. Fetzer also said some embarrassing things at that Chicago convention a few weeks ago.

[realitybites]

Not to mention that even when the Lira was a currency, a couple million would buy you a slice of pizza.
Totally forgot about that. I was over there in '96 (good God I'm getting old) and seeing such high numbers on price tags took some getting used to.

I'll try and help out digging up stuff about these guys, but in all honesty, my blood boils just thinking about them. I'd still love to see a debate between them and Gravy.

[JamesB]

I think it's great that Fetzer believes Barbara Olsen is alive and was arrested in Europe. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing he's referring to this story (http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/OlsenArrested.htm).

From the Sept. 22, 2005 expose:


Unfortunately, Italy had already been using the Euro currency for well over a year at that point. As far as the Polizia were concerned, Ms. Olsen might as well have been stealing a crap-load of those pink $500 Monopoly bills.

The original version of that story also claimed she was caught on the Polish-Austrian border, until someone pointed out that Poland and Austria don't share a border, then they changed it to the Poland-German border and said it was just a mistake.

[realitybites]

The original version of that story also claimed she was caught on the Polish-Austrian border, until someone pointed out that Poland and Austria don't share a border, then they changed it to the Poland-German border and said it was just a mistake.
Let me tell you. Tom Flocco may not be big on geography, but his imagination is top notch (http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/Feds3Dead.htm).

That guy coulda' made a killing in Hollywood writing some kick-ass political thrillers.

:cool:

[aggle-rithm]

Wow! Some of his friends committed suicide because of losing their lives.

How sad for them.

"What a terrible thing it is to lose one's life. Or to not have a life. How true that is."

-D. Quayle

[JamesB]

Let me tell you. Tom Flocco may not be big on geography, but his imagination is top notch (http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/Feds3Dead.htm).

That guy coulda' made a killing in Hollywood writing some kick-ass political thrillers.

:cool:

A similary story on that event was posted on the scholar's homepage, reposted from Pravda. I am glad they hold such high academic standards.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/coup-on-capitol-hill.html

[realitybites]

I am glad they hold such high academic standards.

What'd you expect James? They're scholars.

[Brainster]

The original version of that story also claimed she was caught on the Polish-Austrian border, until someone pointed out that Poland and Austria don't share a border, then they changed it to the Poland-German border and said it was just a mistake.

Not to mention the odd claim that it was American and French Intelligence that arrested her; awfully sporting of the Jerries to let the French bust people on their soil, eh?

[rikzilla]

Not to mention the odd claim that it was American and French Intelligence that arrested her; awfully sporting of the Jerries to let the French bust people on their soil, eh?

The TRUTH movement!
We will know the truth!

As soon as Dylan makes it up!
LC version 3..."The Georgia guidestones speak!"
:)

-z

[Gravy]

I think it's great that Fetzer believes Barbara Olsen is alive and was arrested in Europe. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing he's referring to this story (http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/OlsenArrested.htm).

From the Sept. 22, 2005 expose:


Unfortunately, Italy had already been using the Euro currency for well over a year at that point. As far as the Polizia were concerned, Ms. Olsen might as well have been stealing a crap-load of those pink $500 Monopoly bills.
...And the last time I was in Italy, pre-Euro, a milliion Lire was about $500.

[Kent1]

Fetzer is such an ass. I am listening to his interview with Alan Colmes and some guy came on and said his uncle died on United 93. He said his uncle was talking to his aunt during the flight when Fentzer started screaming hysterically, “You can’t make calls from flights, we have a scientist who is flying around the country trying this and you can’t make calls!”

The caller screamed back, “You ever been on a plane genius, they have phones on the back of the seat!”

I am going to have to start taking breaks from following these idiots, before I go postal on someone.

There's no question Fetzer bombed the truth movement
Over at 911blogger they've got the most comments I've even seen on a thread (480). There's a heated debate about him. I wouldn't be shocked if his own fools give him the boot.

[dubfan]

There's no question Fetzer bombed the truth movement
Over at 911blogger they've got the most comments I've even seen on a thread (480). There's a heated debate about him. I wouldn't be shocked if his own fools give him the boot.

Link?

[Kent1]

Link?
http://www.911blogger.com/

Tuesday, June 27, 2006

Dr. Jim Fetzer on Alan Colmes Radio Show - Open Thread

After I read more, it's not quite as bad, but clearly many are not happy with his performance.

Here's what Fetzer says on the thread:


There is a lot of rubbish on this thread, which is purely ad hominem and without foundation. Colmes was trying to steer me away from the scientific evidence, to which I was eventually able to return.

This is verbal combat, sports fans, not a cordial conversation. He was in attack mode from scratch. Some of you seem to have missed that. LISTEN TO IT AGAIN! And list the points that you agree with and disagree with!

It's fine that some of you like David Ray Griffin's or Steve Jones' style better than you do mine. That's great! Because we and Morgan and Kevin and Bob are all out there doing our thing. None of us is the same as the others. We are all working on it!

Those of you who praise Hoffman while attacking me are fascinating. In case any of you haven't read them, I have two pieces about Hoffman's attacks on me and on Scholars posted on st911.org. Maybe you should read them.
Jim Fetzer

[dubfan]

http://www.911blogger.com/

Tuesday, June 27, 2006

Dr. Jim Fetzer on Alan Colmes Radio Show - Open Thread

After I read more, it's not quite as bad, but clearly many are not happy with his performance.

That man is a complete lunatic.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I am getting so tired of the "I don't subscribe to any 'theory' (conspiracy or gov't), I'm just asking questions!" defense. It's the dang Chewbacca defense all over again.

[dubfan]

Bwahahahhahahaahahahah!!

Fetzer's claiming Norm Mineta resigned because of what Fetzer said on Alan Colmes' TV show.

[dubfan]

You can download it from here (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/they-are-losing-it.html). Fetzer seems to be becoming the spokesman for these nutters, which is probably a good thing for our side. He'll be on Laura Ingraham tomorrow; I suspect that she'll fillet him.

Just listening to Fetzer on Colmes now; he repeats the nonsense about Underwriters' Laboratory certifying the structural steel.

HIGHLY recommended listening.

But not if you have high blood pressure.

:D

[delphi_ote]

I am getting so tired of the "I don't subscribe to any 'theory' (conspiracy or gov't), I'm just asking questions!" defense. It's the dang Chewbacca defense all over again.
Or the creationist "Teach the Controversy" defense.

[Brainster]

http://www.911blogger.com/

Tuesday, June 27, 2006

Dr. Jim Fetzer on Alan Colmes Radio Show - Open Thread

After I read more, it's not quite as bad, but clearly many are not happy with his performance.

Some of them are convinced that Colmes bought into the CD theory. I'll have to listen to it again, but I suspect that Colmes just restated or summarized Fetzer's position to clarify.

I loved the way Fetzer kept ducking questions about the passengers. Colmes would ask him about the passengers and he'd start talking about tail numbers; in part his attempts to dodge the passengers led him to make that ill-advised comment about Barbara Olson. At one point he does acknowledge that there were bodies found at the scene, but then goes off onto the "maybe the passengers all got onto one plane" nonsense that Dylan tried to sell at the end of LC.

[hellaeon]

wow...I thought I had seen the top of the pyramid of idiocy on this. Im stunned. Fetzer is freakin batsh*t loony.

[JamesB]

http://www.911blogger.com/

Tuesday, June 27, 2006

Dr. Jim Fetzer on Alan Colmes Radio Show - Open Thread

After I read more, it's not quite as bad, but clearly many are not happy with his performance.

Here's what Fetzer says on the thread:


There is a lot of rubbish on this thread, which is purely ad hominem and without foundation. Colmes was trying to steer me away from the scientific evidence, to which I was eventually able to return.

This is verbal combat, sports fans, not a cordial conversation. He was in attack mode from scratch. Some of you seem to have missed that. LISTEN TO IT AGAIN! And list the points that you agree with and disagree with!

It's fine that some of you like David Ray Griffin's or Steve Jones' style better than you do mine. That's great! Because we and Morgan and Kevin and Bob are all out there doing our thing. None of us is the same as the others. We are all working on it!

Those of you who praise Hoffman while attacking me are fascinating. In case any of you haven't read them, I have two pieces about Hoffman's attacks on me and on Scholars posted on st911.org. Maybe you should read them.
Jim Fetzer

Oh please, Colmes entire job on TV is to be pushed around by Sean Hannity, he couldn't have been more cordial with Fetzer if he tried, Fetzer just kept on going psycho with the callers.

[Kent1]

Oh please, Colmes entire job on TV is to be pushed around by Sean Hannity, he couldn't have been more cordial with Fetzer if he tried, Fetzer just kept on going psycho with the callers.
Here are his other two messages on the board:(At least he gives himself a C but A for content LOL!!!)


Interesting reading. Thanks for these comments. I can't understand the guy who keeps asking "Who put Fetzer on the program?" It was the same person who puts everyone on any program, the producer! He called me from New York the day after my appearance on Hannity & Colmes to invite me on. There is no mystery. That's what producers do. The very insinuation that there's something mysterious here is extremely odd, but I chaulk it up to ignorance. As for the Barbara Olson business, I mentioned it in passing and said as I did so that I had not been able to verify it. I think some of you are getting just a bit carried away with what might be called "inside 9/11" (in parallel with "inside baseball"). Just because someone talks about or even mentions--as I did in this case--something with which you happen to disagree should not cause you to disregard or discount everything else they are saying or have ever said. That is an example of special pleading by citing only the evidence that supports your side! I have offered a yardstick to evaluate what happened here. Make a list of my points and divide it into those you liked and those you did not. I must have made between 30 and 50 points, many of which, I would bet, are either not commonly heard on radio or television or are never heard on radio or televison. So get a life! I am a great fan of David Ray Griffin and of Steve Jones. If you like what they do better than what I do, great! But understand that we are all doing what we can to promote 9/11 truth--even if we are fallible human beings who are practically never flawness in what we say and do. Just think about it and do your best to get the word out. That's what I do! I appreciated having the chance to talk with Alan Colmes. You may not have that chance. But you talk with real people every day. Do what you can to make them aware of the issues. We need your help!



This is very, very interesting. Douglas sent me a note yesterday saying that, in spite of his criticism of me on this forum, he still supports the society I founded with Steve Jones. I don't know where else you are going to look for scholarly expertise, because we have it and this forum does not. I am not thereby criticizing this forum, by the way, since 911blogger was not set up for that purpose. I do think that a lot of the criticism advanced here is far off base. My style was over the top, but my content was right on the mark.

Self-Evaluation: Style: C. Content: A.

P.S. About the engine part that was found at the Pentagon, the point that I was making is that no Boeing engine parts were found there. The part that was appears to have come from a JT8D, an engine used in the A-3 Sky Warrior. I thought the fact that I was talking about no Boeing engine parts begin found there was obvious from the context. This complaint is contrived.

I also find it fascinating that some of your are "piling on" with Hoffman's attacks on me and Scholars. I sent him my reply to his first attack on me and Scholars, but he refused to publish it on his site. I think my second reply to his second attack explains why. Go to st911.org and scroll down the list of "Articles" if you want my responses to what he has been saying about us.
Jim Fetzer | Homepage | 06.28.06 - 2:58 pm | #

[Brainster]

Here are his other two messages on the board:(At least he gives himself a C but A for content LOL!!!)

This is very, very interesting. Douglas sent me a note yesterday saying that, in spite of his criticism of me on this forum, he still supports the society I founded with Steve Jones. I don't know where else you are going to look for scholarly expertise, because we have it and this forum does not. I am not thereby criticizing this forum, by the way, since 911blogger was not set up for that purpose. I do think that a lot of the criticism advanced here is far off base. My style was over the top, but my content was right on the mark.

Self-Evaluation: Style: C. Content: A.

I love the way he squeaked like a girl every time he got upset.:D

[dubfan]

That is an example of special pleading by citing only the evidence that supports your side!

You blind, lunatic, ****************.

[Ducky]

Here's a quote I really want the CTers to realize:

"Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't." -Mark Twain.

[Kent1]

Here's a quote I really want the CTers to realize:

"Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't." -Mark Twain.
It gets better tommorrow night, I can't wait....

29 June 2006
Interview: Judy (Billiard balls) Wood will be the guest on
"Non-Random Thoughts" with host Jim Fetzer
11 AM to 1 PM/CT (Noon-2 PM/ET and 9-11 AM/PT)
Non-Random Thoughts, live page, archive, (mp3-1), (mp3-2)
http://www.st911.org/

[JamesB]

As for the Barbara Olson business, I mentioned it in passing and said as I did so that I had not been able to verify it.
You haven't been able to verify it because it is bogus. That is like saying, I think the moon is made out of green cheese, but I havne't been able to verify it.

is an example of special pleading by citing only the evidence that supports your side!
Which explains why he discussed the hundreds of witnesses to the Pentagon, rescue workers who found bodies still strapped to the plane seats, the flight manifests received by the 9/11 commission showing the hijackers....

P.S. About the engine part that was found at the Pentagon, the point that I was making is that no Boeing engine parts were found there. The part that was appears to have come from a JT8D, an engine used in the A-3 Sky Warrior. I thought the fact that I was talking about no Boeing engine parts begin found there was obvious from the context. This complaint is contrived.
Yeah, according to distinguished scholar Karl Schwarz, who got his aeronautical degree making paper airplanes at Jefferson Davis Middle School in Little Rock Arkansas I believe.

I don't know where else you are going to look for scholarly expertise, because we have it and this forum does not.

What an arrogant &^*#? Does he think the fact he is a flipping philosophy professor somehow makes him superior to everyone else? I can see this movment falling apart soon, when they all get tired of each other's arrogance and start killing each other.

[Kent1]

Here's a huge article on him
http://citypages.com/databank/27/1334/article14475.asp

Look at these photos of him..LOL!!

[XXX]

Just finished listening to the Fetzer interview. Wow.

You can almost visualize Alan shaking his head as he says "So you don't think Barbera Olson is dead?" I think that's when he realized just how much of a nutcase he had on his show.

[SezMe]

Here's a huge article on him
http://citypages.com/databank/27/1334/article14475.asp

Look at these photos of him..LOL!!
LOL?? You're laughing at how he looks? That's a) childish and b) diverts attention from the issue.

[Gravy]

Here's a huge article on him
http://citypages.com/databank/27/1334/article14475.asp

Look at these photos of him..LOL!!
Juicy!
I'm going to wait a day or two to listen to the Colmes interview, though. I still haven't purged my system of the toxic LC interviews.

[JamesB]

These are my favorite comments from the 911blogger Fetzer thread. I wish I could get the original e-mail:

I got a response to my email to the professors already!

From a civil engineering professor, here's his email... (are we not surprised?)


"What Steven Jones knows about structural engineering wouldn't fill a
thimble.

Stop sending me this moronic "evidence". You are only embarrassing
yourself."

[Kent1]

LOL?? You're laughing at how he looks? That's a) childish and b) diverts attention from the issue.
If the issue his mental instability, then it fits right in.
If you want raw facts about how Fetzer doesn't have a clue what he's talking, about. OK, he stated "None of those hijackers were named on any passenger manifest."
Fetzer takes his poor research from Griffin's crappy book
"The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions"

http://graphics.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/images/aa_flight_11_manifest.gif

http://www.911myths.com/html/omissions____chapter_1.html

[Brainster]

These are my favorite comments from the 911blogger Fetzer thread. I wish I could get the original e-mail:

You can read it here (http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?p=35252#35252).

[JamesB]

If the issue his mental instability, then it fits right in.
If you want raw facts about how Fetzer doesn't have a clue what he's talking, about. OK, he stated "None of those hijackers were named on any passenger manifest."
Fetzer takes his poor research from Griffin's crappy book
"The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions"

http://graphics.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/images/aa_flight_11_manifest.gif

http://www.911myths.com/html/omissions____chapter_1.html

I got involved in an e-mail exchange with a philosophy professor who is one of the "scholars" who wrote an editorial in the Seattle-PI. I pointed out this CNN fallacy without even asking him what his source was. It took me a half dozen e-mails to get this moron to admit that hijackers are not considered "victims". It was like pulling teeth. He just kept droning on about how philosophical and learned he was. God, these people are arrogant.

When I brought up how Griffin had misused evidence I just called him Mr. Griffin. When he replied he went back and edited every occurence of that in the text to Dr. Griffin. His bolding not mine. I told him, that as soon as they started following some minimal standard of academic standards, I would start referring to them as Dr.

[SRW]

I cannot believe that they continually get away with this BS that Cell phones do not work on Jets. I have left my phone on by mistake and although I did not answer the signal sure was getting to me.

This from IEEE Xplore (1998)


http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=675091

Abstract
The passenger aircraft is one of the last places on earth yet to be invaded by the mobile phone. Safety is the major reason forbidding their use, with interference to navigation equipment cited as the principal hazard. Surprisingly, tests have shown that mobile phones actually work very well in the air. The aircraft structure does not prevent communication with the ground-the windows may well act as a form of slotted waveguide antenna-and coverage is excellent. The drawback, as far as the mobile operators are concerned, is that a mobile phone operating at 30000 ft can be seen by many cells at any one time, playing havoc with frequency reuse between cells. A number of approaches to enabling ordinary mobile phones to be used on board an aircraft have been studied. The author looks at some of the developments that should bring seamless communications from ground level to 30000 ft. In particular the author discusses the potential of aircraft based satellite communication using INMARSAT

-----------------------------------------------------------------

But the CS nuts say it is imposable because one guy cannot fly and dial at the same time.

[realitybites]

You can read it here (http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?p=35252#35252).
I just about spewed my Yuengling all over the screen when I read the posts after that email asking people to deluge Oprah with requests to get DOCTOR Griffin on her show.

Apparently they were too busy digging for the truth to catch that whole James Frey incident. She already unwittingly made a fool of herself then.

That she'd even consciously consider to go back for seconds by having these guys on her show is most amusing.

[gumboot]

I just saw some video with Fetzer... that man is mad!

Where do they get them?

-Andrew

[WildCat]

So, I've been lurking on the madness at the LC forum. johndoex claims to be an airline pilot. What are the odds he is, I wonder...

[DavidJames]

So, I've been lurking on the madness at the LC forum. johndoex claims to be an airline pilot. What are the odds he is, I wonder...I think he takes quite a few flights of fancy ;)

He's great, he howled loudly when I called him a CTer, now in one of his more recent posts he pretty much admits to it.

He's a full blooded CTer, but he's to cowardly to admit it because he knows once he "comes out", all the questions he's asking will come right back at him and it's pretty clear, he gets all his info from TV and CT sights and isn't able to debate worth a damn.

[realitybites]

I think he takes quite a few flights of fancy ;)

He's great, he howled loudly when I called him a CTer, now in one of his more recent posts he pretty much admits to it.

He's a full blooded CTer, but he's to cowardly to admit it because he knows once he "comes out", all the questions he's asking will come right back at him and it's pretty clear, he gets all his info from TV and CT sights and isn't able to debate worth a damn.
Off-topic, I know. But is it possible to howl softly? ;)

.... Perhaps a question better suited in another JREF forum.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Off-topic, I know. But is it possible to howl softly? ;)

.... Perhaps a question better suited in another JREF forum.

Perhaps Meffy would know the answer to that one.

[chipmunk stew]

You can download it from here (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/they-are-losing-it.html). Fetzer seems to be becoming the spokesman for these nutters, which is probably a good thing for our side. He'll be on Laura Ingraham tomorrow; I suspect that she'll fillet him.

Just listening to Fetzer on Colmes now; he repeats the nonsense about Underwriters' Laboratory certifying the structural steel.Oh. My. God.

I hope this gets distributed far and wide.

As chucksheen so eloquently puts it:

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/ThanxSmiley.gif

[Johnny Pixels]

So, I've been lurking on the madness at the LC forum. johndoex claims to be an airline pilot. What are the odds he is, I wonder...

I wonder that too. A quote from him:

Jet fuel is kerosene (just more refined)... we used it in our diesel gas trucks when i worked ramps pumping gas into airplanes as i was coming through the ranks...

As far as I know, airline pilots don't start off as ground crew. And diesel trucks won't run on jet fuel. And why would you use expensive jet fuel instead of cheap diesel?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I just listened to the Fetzer/Colmes mp3.

Is it just me, or did he sound like he was constantly out of breath to anyone else? I swear, he stopped to breathe on almost every 3rd syllable. It's like he was about to have a coronary right there on the phone with Colmes.

Did I hear Fetzer right that he claimed that the Scholars count civil engineers among thier ranks? I just did a quick search of thier members list and found the words "structural engineer" appears only twice. Both times next to the names of associate members (not FULL members) and each time the structural engineering is listed second, after what I assume is thier main field of expertise?

[gumboot]

As far as I know, airline pilots don't start off as ground crew. And diesel trucks won't run on jet fuel. And why would you use expensive jet fuel instead of cheap diesel?


Me thinks there's some holes is this here plot...

-Andrew

[Shrinker]

I wonder that too. A quote from him:



As far as I know, airline pilots don't start off as ground crew. And diesel trucks won't run on jet fuel. And why would you use expensive jet fuel instead of cheap diesel?
I don't know about the fuel, but I'd heard that trainee pilots will take any work they can get in the airline industry while they wait for positions to become available. A friend of mine knows a pilot who spent quite a while working as a flight attendant. That's all I know though.

[Johnny Pixels]

I don't know about the fuel, but I'd heard that trainee pilots will take any work they can get in the airline industry while they wait for positions to become available. A friend of mine knows a pilot who spent quite a while working as a flight attendant. That's all I know though.

This could well be true, but working as cabin staff makes more sense as the pilot needs to know how they work, so getting that experience would be beneficial, but ground crew seem to be a different thing altogether, but that might just be me.

Johndoex also claims to have flown at 2000ft regularly between Laguardia and JFK. This was in response to his claim that the twin towers were designed to take a full speed, full load, just taken off, aircraft strike, not just a low fuel, low speed, lost in fog, trying to land. I pointed that the nearest airports were 8 miles away from the WTC complex, and I wanted to know why a plane would be flying at 1300ft, and therefore endangering the towers, when it took off 8 miles away.

[Shrinker]

This could well be true, but working as cabin staff makes more sense as the pilot needs to know how they work, so getting that experience would be beneficial, but ground crew seem to be a different thing altogether, but that might just be me.

You're quite right, but I also saw an episode of Airline where one of the ground crew was taking his exams for a job on the cabin crew, so I guess they move around.

Johndoex also claims to have flown at 2000ft regularly between Laguardia and JFK. This was in response to his claim that the twin towers were designed to take a full speed, full load, just taken off, aircraft strike, not just a low fuel, low speed, lost in fog, trying to land. I pointed that the nearest airports were 8 miles away from the WTC complex, and I wanted to know why a plane would be flying at 1300ft, and therefore endangering the towers, when it took off 8 miles away.

I haven't followed all his claims but I'm guessing he probably is a pilot of some sort. If he was making it up, he'd probably make up some real insider bombshells too. As it is, his 'pilot' status doesn't really seem to be bringing any dramatic new information into the equation. Mostly he sems to be just dabbling around at the fringes of his own knowledge. We can all do that, and reach any conclusion we want. eg my paragraph above.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Crosspost, since it will probably get me suspended/banned again:



Millions of Germans can't be wrong.

Considering the subject.. again, it doesnt matter who is right or wrong. If the people want answers, and the govt refuses, revolutions start. People die. get it?

the people run the govt, the govt doesnt run the people. Which goes back to your german statement.

And that post sums up the problem I have with the "Truth" movement. Look at what was written and look close:

"Considering the subject.. again, it doesnt matter who is right or wrong. If the people want answers, and the govt refuses, revolutions start."

Don't you think you should have your story together; be sure that you are right; and can prove through objective, verifiable means that you are right; before you start pushing forward in such a manner that you admit could undermine the stability of the nation?

This is the same problem as with your "asking questions" line. You're not asking questions, you're asking leading questions; and, in doing so, you spread information quickly, at the cost of veracity.

[60hzxtl]

I wonder that too. A quote from him:

As far as I know, airline pilots don't start off as ground crew. And diesel trucks won't run on jet fuel. And why would you use expensive jet fuel instead of cheap diesel?

Just a word on that fuel in 'truck' , from someone with NO military experience, and not a pilot, but I've spen LOTS of time on aircraft carriers -

On a carrier, they tow they planes around with a vehicle - refereed to as a tractor, or a huffer, (sometimes used to turn over a jet engine.) On the carriers I was on, (five of them and counting) they ran on JP-5 the same thng that the F-18s ran on. The ship is then only required to load, store and carry one kind of fuel. (aside from that glowee fuel they say they run the ship with, but then since I've never seen it, and in the thought process of a ct'er, Nuh uh, I don't know how it works how can that be?)

[Johnny Pixels]

You're quite right, but I also saw an episode of Airline where one of the ground crew was taking his exams for a job on the cabin crew, so I guess they move around.

I haven't followed all his claims but I'm guessing he probably is a pilot of some sort. If he was making it up, he'd probably make up some real insider bombshells too. As it is, his 'pilot' status doesn't really seem to be bringing any dramatic new information into the equation. Mostly he sems to be just dabbling around at the fringes of his own knowledge. We can all do that, and reach any conclusion we want. eg my paragraph above.

I think you're right. It wouldn't be right to speculate.

[Johnny Pixels]

Just a word on that fuel in 'truck' , from someone with NO military experience, and not a pilot, but I've spen LOTS of time on aircraft carriers -

On a carrier, they tow they planes around with a vehicle - refereed to as a tractor, or a huffer, (sometimes used to turn over a jet engine.) On the carriers I was on, (five of them and counting) they ran on JP-5 the same thng that the F-18s ran on. The ship is then only required to load, store and carry one kind of fuel. (aside from that glowee fuel they say they run the ship with, but then since I've never seen it, and in the thought process of a ct'er, Nuh uh, I don't know how it works how can that be?)
I did check out the different properties of jet fuel and diesel. One site gave a very different autoignition temp for the two, and one gave a very similar, so it may well be true that using jet fuel in diesel trucks is normal and possible. It was mainly intuition that guided me, rather than thinking, so :hit: for me.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Digging myself in deeper



Watch this video Arkan.. if you want to stop the will of the people..

I never said I wanted to "stop the will of the people", please don't imply that I did so. What I said is that you have a duty, that if you want to influence the will of the people that you better damn well be sure that you are doing so with facts, and proveable evidence; not with leading questions and conjecture.

ETA: And that the will of the people is constrained by the laws of the nation, i.e. The Constitution.



you need to stop this propaganda machine. Also note the rating and awards this show receives.

No matter how you spin it, or deny it, because "you may not watch TV", the TV propaganda machine works both ways.. and people listen.

The type of stuff on this video is happening on show after show...

Watch it.. dont make the mistake of dismissing it.

http://www.freepressinternational.com/lega...ader-james.html

The difference between that show, and this forum, is that the bullet-points that Spader makes are grounded on proveable facts, and have been made public through reputable sources.
The similarity between that show, and this forum, is that they are both works of fiction.

[azazal]

I did check out the different properties of jet fuel and diesel. One site gave a very different autoignition temp for the two, and one gave a very similar, so it may well be true that using jet fuel in diesel trucks is normal and possible. It was mainly intuition that guided me, rather than thinking, so :hit: for me.


Ahh, but you see you looked for evidence and listened to those around you that have first hand knowledge. When new info arrived, you updated and changed your POV, something CTers are completly unable to do.

[60hzxtl]

Ahh, but you see you looked for evidence and listened to those around you that have first hand knowledge. When new info arrived, you updated and changed your POV, something CTers are completly unable to do.


Yeah Mr. Pixels' (Hey wasn't he the guy in Superman?) Not beating you up at all, we just have an expanse of knowledge and experience around here.

(My wife calls it a head full of useless information, I prefer to think of it as 'eclectic knowledge.' but often they are equal!)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Yeah Mr. Pixels' (Hey wasn't he the guy in Superman?) Not beating you up at all, we just have an expanse of knowledge and experience around here.

(My wife calls it a head full of useless information, I prefer to think of it as 'eclectic knowledge.' but often they are equal!)

I have a plethora of useless information.


Jefe: A what?
El Guapo: A *plethora*.
Jefe: Oh yes, El Guapo. You have a plethora.
El Guapo: Jefe, what is a plethora?
Jefe: Why, El Guapo?
El Guapo: Well, you just told me that I had a plethora, and I would just like to know if you know what it means to have a plethora. I would not like to think that someone would tell someone else he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has *no idea* what it means to have a plethora.
Jefe: El Guapo, I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education, but could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me?

[60hzxtl]

Hey, I'd have said "plethora" if I could spell it - as it is I had to cut and paste your "plethora"!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hey, I'd have said "plethora" if I could spell it - as it is I had to cut and paste your "plethora"!

How do you think I go it? Actually, I did spell it right in the search engine in order to find the movie quote, but that doesn't really matter.

[Johnny Pixels]

Ahh, but you see you looked for evidence and listened to those around you that have first hand knowledge. When new info arrived, you updated and changed your POV, something CTers are completly unable to do.

Either that or I'm under the influence of your disinformation ;)

[Johnny Pixels]

Here's another post to show my ignorance. From this thread: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6702

Apparently the 767s used were refitted military tankers to carry passengers, or something like that anyway. I asked, why would they refit tankers when they could just get a passenger version and save themselves the hassle.

Good old DJ Runaway chips in:

(Jonathan Picture-Elements @ Jun 27 2006, 07:10 AM) Uh, why would they refit a tanker conversion to look like a passenger plane, when they could just as easily get a passenger plane and save themselves the bother?
Your a moron...
All of your posts show your rediculous iggnorance to anythign other than the little picture of 9/11 that you have in your mind.

How would they pull off an authentic looking 9/11 by just taking random planes they have and running them into buildings. There has to be a back story, planes had to be hijacked, people had to be emotionally involved, the story had to look believable.

So your saying US citizens would volunteer to accually get on the original planes and hijack them and go on their own suicide mission?...Or would it make more sense to fake the hijackings and then send remote fitted military planes which are not easily tracked to do the job?...

Common Sense seems to be a lost art to people.... http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/nonono.gif

[azazal]

Here's another post to show my ignorance. From this thread: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6702

Apparently the 767s used were refitted military tankers to carry passengers, or something like that anyway. I asked, why would they refit tankers when they could just get a passenger version and save themselves the hassle.

Good old DJ Runaway chips in:


Huh?????????????

[60hzxtl]

<<<<There has to be a back story, planes had to be hijacked, people had to be emotionally involved, the story had to look believable.>>>


Fictional films and TV have "back stories", reality has events that lead to. . .

<<<Common Sense seems to be a lost art to people....>>>

How could 'common sense' be an art????

But <<<Your a moron>>> does take the cake! And somebody took the apostrophe and the "E"!

[DavidJames]

Here's another post to show my ignorance. From this thread: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6702

Apparently the 767s used were refitted military tankers to carry passengers, or something like that anyway. I asked, why would they refit tankers when they could just get a passenger version and save themselves the hassle.

Good old DJ Runaway chips in:We are seeking this truth as well and we do not have the burden of proof even though we truthseekers aim to uncover as much as possible. Maybe you could help instead of ignoring all the red flags, smoking guns and holes? epitomizes the saying, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

[Johnny Pixels]

They seem to have some idea that something that belongs to the military ceases to exist in the real world. I mean, wouldn't a pilot notice if his plane disappears overnight? Wouldn't the airbase notice that one of their planes is missing? Wouldn't the crew refitting the plane wonder where it was from, and why they were re-refitting a plane, as it's already come from boeing and been refitted into a tanker? But no, as soon as the military get it, its untraceable.

And radio controlled? Radio controlled by who? Each fantastic addition to the CT soap opera drags more and more people in, more people who have to be silenced. There was a robbery in Tonbridge in Kent, UK, earlier this year, from a Securitas cash handling depot. They stole £53 million. About a week later a woman walked into a building society to open an account with some cash still wrapped in the "Securitas Tonbridge" paper wrappers. It's not easy to buy people off and keep them silent.

[ob986s]

I have a plethora of useless information.


My wife calls me a "treasure trove of useless information" I bet there are many of us here that are called similar by their spouses.

That is the best sequence from that Movie, too bad with that cast it could have been much better.

Jon

[Brainster]

Here's another post to show my ignorance. From this thread: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6702

Apparently the 767s used were refitted military tankers to carry passengers, or something like that anyway. I asked, why would they refit tankers when they could just get a passenger version and save themselves the hassle.

Good old DJ Runaway chips in:

This seems to be the "say anything" school of debate, which Fetzer used himself in the Colmes interview. Confronted with the Airfones, he said first that the hijackers wouldn't have allowed the passengers to use the Airfones, and anyway, you need a credit card to operate them. I don't have a clue where he was going with that. Maybe he thinks the hijackers would have confiscated everybody's credit cards? Or that the passengers wouldn't have used the Airphones because they were too expensive (IIRC, they're $4.99 to connect and $2.99/minute)?

[CurtC]

Further, if they did get a tanker and paint it up like a commercial airliner, then they still have the task of disposing of those real commercial airliners that were supposed to be hijacked. I mean, there are four missing planes now, and no one would deny that, right?

[Shrinker]

This seems to be the "say anything" school of debate, which Fetzer used himself in the Colmes interview. Confronted with the Airfones, he said first that the hijackers wouldn't have allowed the passengers to use the Airfones, and anyway, you need a credit card to operate them. I don't have a clue where he was going with that. Maybe he thinks the hijackers would have confiscated everybody's credit cards? Or that the passengers wouldn't have used the Airphones because they were too expensive (IIRC, they're $4.99 to connect and $2.99/minute)?

Interesting. So in order for the conspiracy to succeed all of the credit card companies must be covering up a lack of credit card transactions from the planes. The conspiracy grows again.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

This seems to be the "say anything" school of debate, which Fetzer used himself in the Colmes interview. Confronted with the Airfones, he said first that the hijackers wouldn't have allowed the passengers to use the Airfones, and anyway, you need a credit card to operate them. I don't have a clue where he was going with that. Maybe he thinks the hijackers would have confiscated everybody's credit cards? Or that the passengers wouldn't have used the Airphones because they were too expensive (IIRC, they're $4.99 to connect and $2.99/minute)?
Post hoc, ergo prompter hoc at its finest.

[Brainster]

Interesting. So in order for the conspiracy to succeed all of the credit card companies must be covering up a lack of credit card transactions from the planes. The conspiracy grows again.

Ah, that's where he was going! Unfortunately, Colmes cut to another caller or a break, but I can hear Fetzer, "Where are the credit card receipts, Alan? Why won't they show us the credit card receipts?" And of course if they ever came up with receipts, the response would be "Oh, sure, they've had five years to come up with fakes and they've done a pretty good job. But if you look at this one call, it's clearly too (long/short) considering what we've been told was said in that conversation..."

You know, the sad part in reading the comments on the 9-11 Blogger post on the Colmes/Fetzer interview is that a lot of people want him to focus on the "facts" not conjecture--they believe in other words. But listening to Fetzer's debating style, it's obvious that he's aware that he's selling snakeoil to the rubes. I was flabbergasted that he essentially endorsed every aspect of Loose Change (with the arguable exception of the gold in the basement, which he probably just didn't get around to). But he knows what he's doing; he's piggybacking on LC's success with the younger crowd--tomorrow's market. What a despicable man.

[dubfan]

Ah, that's where he was going! Unfortunately, Colmes cut to another caller or a break, but I can hear Fetzer, "Where are the credit card receipts, Alan? Why won't they show us the credit card receipts?" And of course if they ever came up with receipts, the response would be "Oh, sure, they've had five years to come up with fakes and they've done a pretty good job. But if you look at this one call, it's clearly too (long/short) considering what we've been told was said in that conversation..."

I listened to that interview exactly one time, and I can hear the man's voice saying exactly what you've written, as clearly as if Fetzer had said it himself.

I'm scarred for life.

[Pangea]

This seems to be the "say anything" school of debate, which Fetzer used himself in the Colmes interview. Confronted with the Airfones, he said first that the hijackers wouldn't have allowed the passengers to use the Airfones, and anyway, you need a credit card to operate them. I don't have a clue where he was going with that. Maybe he thinks the hijackers would have confiscated everybody's credit cards? Or that the passengers wouldn't have used the Airphones because they were too expensive (IIRC, they're $4.99 to connect and $2.99/minute)?

I thought it was reported that some of those calls were collect.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Classic quote in the daily 9-11 conspiracy thread on the World of Warcaft Off-Topic forum (preserved here for when the board mods nuke it):

What I want to know is, who are you trying to convert to your way of thinking? Kids from WoW? There's an army in the making.

I can see it now. Ghost-white kids from suburban neighborhoods tearing down the White House fence and rallying around the cry of "WE WANT A BLUE RESPONSE!!"

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I thought it was reported that some of those calls were collect.

I thought all charges were waved for emergency calls?

[Tailgater]

I thought all charges were waved for emergency calls?

For 911, but you can't argue an operator into placing a direct person to person call for free. I've tried.

[JamesB]

Huh?????????????

Just one problem with that theory, the Air Force doesn't have 767 tankers. There was a proposal for them to lease 100 from Boeing in 2002, but it was cancelled due to a bribery scandal. Besides, if they were leased, you would think the company would notice they were short 4 planes.

[Brainster]

From the Loosers Forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7107&view=findpost&p=5679705):

No offense but noobs to truth never realize how big this truth movement has become. There are seriously BILLIONS involved and growing.

I wonder if it's productive to claim that; isn't part of the allure of the CT that only a select few are smart enough to see through the smokescreen?

[dubfan]

Just one problem with that theory, the Air Force doesn't have 767 tankers. There was a proposal for them to lease 100 from Boeing in 2002, but it was cancelled due to a bribery scandal. Besides, if they were leased, you would think the company would notice they were short 4 planes.

Damn you and your inconvenient facts.

[JamesB]

From the Loosers Forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7107&view=findpost&p=5679705):



I wonder if it's productive to claim that; isn't part of the allure of the CT that only a select few are smart enough to see through the smokescreen?

But the "truth" movement has a secret weapon. From the Journal of 9/11 Scholars forum:

http://www.atfreeforum.com/911studies/viewtopic.php?t=7&start=30&mforum=911studies

Also, there are several thousand structural engineers working with the 9/11 truth movement from all over the world.

st911.org and SPINE are not the only groups and an extensive amount are not part of the Internet campaign.

There are enough of us to deal with anyone who turns up on the Internet...

Of course a simple reply to name one, got the following response

As for getting peoples names, you are not authorised to have such information. The answer is no.
Even to pro-conspiracy moderator wants to know why not.

[pgwenthold]

Just one problem with that theory, the Air Force doesn't have 767 tankers. There was a proposal for them to lease 100 from Boeing in 2002, but it was cancelled due to a bribery scandal. Besides, if they were leased, you would think the company would notice they were short 4 planes.

Retroactively, even!

[VespaGuy]

I've been quietly following this thread (and the hijinks over at the LC forums) since it began. But I found this thread over at LC to be very telling:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7124

It's started by LiveFreeorDieTryin who calls his father a coward for not believing "the truth". (Whether his story is true, who knows.) Other Loosers begin chiming in and relaying their conflicts with relatives or they offer an excuse for why said relative is ignoring them.

What's funny to me, is that they all mention how smart the 'unbelieving' relative is (colek's father is a lawyer, pr0mythius parents have a PHD and 3 masters between them, JerryB9105's son was the first in his family to go to college, etc). But they never seem to make the link between intelligence and critical thinking.

That whole thread is just sad.

(sorry for the derail)

[Johnny Pixels]

I was thinking. Why do the Loosers deny the panacake collapse theory? Surely it works to their advantage because it reduces the amount of explosives required to achieve the collapse of the tower. By just having explosives sever the supports holding say one or two floors then the same collapse would happen, but with a much smaller number of explosives required. They wouldn't have to answer half as many questions about collapse times, cutting beams, explosives in the lobby etc, ie the main points they can't answer because they're wrong.

Obviously I know it's still a ridiculous idea, but the conspiracy theory seems to have be as different as possible from the official explanation. A good comparison I suppose would be having someone else shoot JFK, but from exactly the same position as Oswald. That way the theory is identical to the official story, but Oswald is the patsy. They'd never buy it because it's not different enough. How wierd is that?

ETA: And this is my 911th post too...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well, they've degenerated to character assassination of Randi and mud-slinging the term "cult" as a defense now http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6986&st=90 Can this be considered a death rattle, or is it just the final straw of their own sanity snapping?

[Ducky]

Ok Jennabel's delusion she will become a mod is pretty funny.

[Johnny Pixels]

They fail to explain why explosives would pulverise concrete. Unless I'm missing something, to destroy the concrete would need charges placed in it, and then it would most likely split it and maybe turn the immediate area to dust. The charges need to be placed to destroy the structure, which is steel, so that means the charges need to go near the columns, both perimeter and core, and this wouldn't turn the concrete to dust, well as far as I know it wouldn't.

[Hellbound]

They fail to explain why explosives would pulverise concrete. Unless I'm missing something, to destroy the concrete would need charges placed in it, and then it would most likely split it and maybe turn the immediate area to dust. The charges need to be placed to destroy the structure, which is steel, so that means the charges need to go near the columns, both perimeter and core, and this wouldn't turn the concrete to dust, well as far as I know it wouldn't.

I did the figures, assuming a C-4 charge placed every 4 feet, as to how much would be required to pulverize the concrete.

It's about 450 tons worth.

If you space the charges out farther, it grows even larger.

[Brainster]

What's funny to me, is that they all mention how smart the 'unbelieving' relative is (colek's father is a lawyer, pr0mythius parents have a PHD and 3 masters between them, JerryB9105's son was the first in his family to go to college, etc). But they never seem to make the link between intelligence and critical thinking.

Yeah, it sometimes seems that nobody over on that board has a clue as to grammar, spelling, etc. The initial writer talks about honny honjore; I mean, if this thing is so important to your life that you're getting into arguments with family about it, you'd think you could at least get the names right.

I do feel sorry for the folks who really believe this nonsense (billions of them according to Chuck Sheen). I don't feel sorry for the sharpies like Fetzer and Avery and Jones who are fleecing them.

[Johnny Pixels]

I did the figures, assuming a C-4 charge placed every 4 feet, as to how much would be required to pulverize the concrete.

It's about 450 tons worth.

If you space the charges out farther, it grows even larger.

I don't suppose there's any way of working out the minimum time to plant those charges, ie time taken to drill into concrete or steel + time taken to plant C-4, just to give an idea of how ridiculous the idea of fitting the whole thing into the power down periods that they suggest?

[Mancman]

Well, they've degenerated to character assassination of Randi and mud-slinging the term "cult" as a defense now http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6986&st=90 Can this be considered a death rattle, or is it just the final straw of their own sanity snapping?

Now that is both sad and hilarious, JREF members are a cult? Despite the fact that all those loosers have downed an entire brewery worth of Avery's Kool-Aid? Hypocrites!

[XXX]

Well, they've degenerated to character assassination of Randi and mud-slinging the term "cult" as a defense now http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6986&st=90 Can this be considered a death rattle, or is it just the final straw of their own sanity snapping?

LOL, didn't realize that I'd been brought up in an actual thread over there. That's funny.

"In fact that is one of the regulations I was asked to follow before I would be made a mod. I was told to publicly keep the cult reference on the down low."

"One of the regulations, huh? Apparently she missed the word "suggestion" in my post. As if I had any power to make decisions here anyways.

[Belz...]

I'm going to go after the Scholars with everything I've got. Anybody who's compiled information on these guys, I want to know about it.

All I know is: they're idiots.

Does that help ?

[ktesibios]

I did the figures, assuming a C-4 charge placed every 4 feet, as to how much would be required to pulverize the concrete.

It's about 450 tons worth.

If you space the charges out farther, it grows even larger.

Huntsman, do your figures apply to the sort of linear shaped charges used by professional demolition contractors in the civilian market, or do they apply to the use of bulk explosives to break things by brute force?

Either way the CTer claims seem to go smash against ugly reality- if you postulate the use of shaped charges to cut the steel (and kicker charges to prevent the cut ends from jamming together and continuing to act in compression), the question of how the conspirators could have gained the direct access to structural members that would require and conceal all trace of their activities in a working office building. If you assume bulk explosives, then the question becomes one of how you bring in and place such large quantities of explosives while concealing your activities and avoid producing the signs that such a big KABOOM would leave behind.

[JamesB]

The Fetzer interview with dental hygenist, I mean mechanical engineer, Judy Wood is up. For those who are interested in this idiot. The very end when he starts sobbing is hilarious.

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Fetzer06.html

[Belz...]

Ok Jennabel's delusion she will become a mod is pretty funny.

She's mad. And apprently the meaning of the word "thought" is lost on her.

Oh well...

[Abbyas]

The 9/11 scholars journal message board is fascinating. Way to go, gentlemen, in defending science.

Every Sat, the truthers go down to the WTC with some pamphlets and banners. A few saturdays ago I went down there and was amazed by the amount of information these people didn't know. This sat, I'm going back with a comedic piece that I wrote proving that I was responsible and links to Gravy's piece and the 911myths site. This time I will stand across the street with my own placard as last time people just assumed I was another CTer.

I certainly don't expect that I will change any of their minds, but maybe some people will think before they jump on the loose change bandwagon. Or not. But, hell, it'll make for a good video.

[Johnny Pixels]

I've been quietly following this thread (and the hijinks over at the LC forums) since it began. But I found this thread over at LC to be very telling:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7124

It's started by LiveFreeorDieTryin who calls his father a coward for not believing "the truth". (Whether his story is true, who knows.) Other Loosers begin chiming in and relaying their conflicts with relatives or they offer an excuse for why said relative is ignoring them.

What's funny to me, is that they all mention how smart the 'unbelieving' relative is (colek's father is a lawyer, pr0mythius parents have a PHD and 3 masters between them, JerryB9105's son was the first in his family to go to college, etc). But they never seem to make the link between intelligence and critical thinking.

That whole thread is just sad.

(sorry for the derail)

I've just had a look at this thread. This was the post that got me:


He goes into the kitchen and grabs some box cutters, comes into my room and holds them up to my face with the other hand holding my by the scruff of my jacket, yelling and screaming telling me to imagine what it felt like, saying im detached and all that, I'm telling him to look at how crazy he is becoming and that we should just stop talking about it and accept a difference of opinion but he continues to do this crap for about 2-3 minutes. I was disguisted.


Call the police, or DFS, that's got to be illegal.


Threatening someone with box cutters is illegal? But they're such a useless weapon. Why didn't he just laugh in his face like his hero Dylan Avery would?

[XXX]

The Fetzer interview with dental hygenist, I mean mechanical engineer, Judy Wood is up. For those who are interested in this idiot. The very end when he starts sobbing is hilarious.

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Fetzer06.html

Listening to this wing nut right now.

I still love the idea that the WTC fires only reach 500 degrees f. My oven gets that hot.

MY god, this is funny stuff. She talks about the towers being "like trees" and then says that trees don't turn into sawdust on the way down! And to top it all of, Fetzer laughs and tells her "That's a perfect parallel!!" Holy crap! That's LOL funnny!!

[Brainster]

The 9/11 scholars journal message board is fascinating. Way to go, gentlemen, in defending science.

Every Sat, the truthers go down to the WTC with some pamphlets and banners. A few saturdays ago I went down there and was amazed by the amount of information these people didn't know. This sat, I'm going back with a comedic piece that I wrote proving that I was responsible and links to Gravy's piece and the 911myths site. This time I will stand across the street with my own placard as last time people just assumed I was another CTer.

I certainly don't expect that I will change any of their minds, but maybe some people will think before they jump on the loose change bandwagon. Or not. But, hell, it'll make for a good video.

Hi Abby! Be sure to let us know when your report on this weekend's mission is ready for linkage! For the rest of you, the piece that she wrote showing (http://abbyscott.blogspot.com/2006/05/who-was-responsible-for-911.html) that she was responsible for 9/11 was terrific. We linked it over at SLC a couple weeks ago.

[JamesB]

I've just had a look at this thread. This was the post that got me:



Threatening someone with box cutters is illegal? But they're such a useless weapon. Why didn't he just laugh in his face like his hero Dylan Avery would?

Or hit him with his luggage, like Jim Fetzer

Fetzer: One thing I thought about these hijackers that is kind of bizarre. If I had encountered a bunch of hijackers with boxcutters, I would have taken my luggage and beat ‘em to death.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/you-need-credit-card-to-do-that.html

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This just in: Blizzard's cutest (if somewhat ban-happy) forum mod (pictured here on the right-hand side of the infamous Leeroy Jenkins: http://www.thepalsforlife.com/images/Leeroy/KdmLeeroyCoreiel.jpg ) has just drop-kicked the WoW Off-Topic forums village idiot for spewing 9-11 conspiracy bilge.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-off-topic&t=1727916&p=1&tmp=1#post1727916

"Babbycakes" debating style seems oddly similar to Prof. Fetzer's. Coincidence?

[JamesB]

Listening to this wing nut right now.

I still love the idea that the WTC fires only reach 500 degrees f. My oven gets that hot.

MY god, this is funny stuff. She talks about the towers being "like trees" and then says that trees don't turn into sawdust on the way down! And to top it all of, Fetzer laughs and tells her "That's a perfect parallel!!" Holy crap! That's LOL funnny!!

So if you had a big enough axe, you could just chop down a 110 story building and lay it on its side intact? that is just bizarre.

[Brainster]

Or hit him with his luggage, like Jim Fetzer

That was a classic example of the callousness of these toads. Yes, everybody would rush a hijacker now and fight him to the death. But pre-9/11 the recommendation of the experts was to cooperate, knowing that all of this would probably be resolved on the tarmac in Malta.

[pgwenthold]

That was a classic example of the callousness of these toads. Yes, everybody would rush a hijacker now and fight him to the death. But pre-9/11 the recommendation of the experts was to cooperate, knowing that all of this would probably be resolved on the tarmac in Malta.

And keep in mind that for at least one of the flights that hit the WTC (if not both), very few of the passengers in coach even knew the plane was hijacked. The hijackers tried to announce it, but said it to the radio and not the cabin. The flight attendant that called (Betty?) said they had told coach passengers there was something else going on. All of the activity was up in first class.

[60hzxtl]

I think you guys are wrong about Fetzer.

He does seem to have a lot of baggage. . .

[Gravy]

Fetzer's a couple bezels shy of a diffuser case.
I just caught this. Thanks for making me laugh, Brainster! :D

[Gravy]

I just listened to the Fetzer/Colmes mp3.
Did I hear Fetzer right that he claimed that the Scholars count civil engineers among thier ranks? I just did a quick search of thier members list and found the words "structural engineer" appears only twice. Both times next to the names of associate members (not FULL members) and each time the structural engineering is listed second, after what I assume is thier main field of expertise?

I have emailed Fetzer and Jones four times about this and have not received a reply. I haven't been able to find anything that verifies ST911's claim that these people are professionals in the fields listed. Notice how they cleverly say, "John Doe, structural engineering," not "structural engineer." AFAIK, that designation merely indicates an area of interest. No credentials are given for any of these people. If they actually had credentialed structural engineers on board they'd be trumpeting that news to the heavens. My conclusion: they don't.

There is one guy, Ken Wrenn, whose title is "Civil Engineer," so that's something to look into. I didn't come up with anything except some comments made by a guy with the same name in a town meeting about the local recycling center. Could be he's a "sanitation engineer."

Here's the list of people on their site that I've queried Jones and Fetzer about:

Jean-Pierre Petit (FM) Aeronautics, astrophysics, engineering

Brian Duncan (AM) Fire Protection Engineering; Art and Creative Director; The Flywire, theflywire.com

Eric Hermanson (AM) Engineering Physics, Nuclear Engineering, Software Architect

Michael Lovingier (AM) Information technology manager , Structural/Environmental Engineering

Ted Muga (AM) Naval aviator; Commercial pilot; Structural engineering

RC Oliver, Jr. (AM) Chief Engineer (Google comes up with an RC Oliver who, as of 1999, was a marine engineer in England.)

Why not email the head wingnuts and ask them about this?
James H. Fetzer jfetzer@d.umn.edu
Steven E. Jones HardEvidence@gmail.com

Another technique would be for those who run debunking websites to list these people and state, "I challenge anyone to prove that these are structural engineers." Then maybe come CT will take the bait and come up with some credentials.

[Gravy]

Further, if they did get a tanker and paint it up like a commercial airliner, then they still have the task of disposing of those real commercial airliners that were supposed to be hijacked. I mean, there are four missing planes now, and no one would deny that, right?
Dylan Avery, in a radio interview with Daniel Ott: "I would like to think that these four planes are still flying around."

[Ducky]

Dylan Avery, in a radio interview with Daniel Ott: "I would like to think that these four planes are still flying around."



Bah.

I would like to think I am a rock star.

Thinking ain't making it happen.

[Gravy]

I thought it was reported that some of those calls were collect.
Yes, some were, such as at least one of the calls Barbara Olson made to her husband from her personal phone. That's the one Avery says couldn't have happened because she wouldn't have been able to get her credit card out of her purse.

$&*^(*&()&$^%#^(&)(*_* !:mad:

[XXX]

Just finished the Fetzer/Wood interview show.

It's a total comedy act. I laughed out loud when she talked about the grand piano and the "parachute effect"...just listen to it, the whole thing is horrible. "Where are the pankakes?" There's at least 4 WTF?! moments in this. I can't believe people would say such stupid things.

Ever notice how most everything in the 9/11 truth movment is a (bad) analogy? Lots more of them in this interview.

So according to "Professor" Woods, it should have taken the WTC 97 seconds to collapse. OK....And all structural engineers in the world are keeping silent according to Fetzer, and they all have a special place reserved for them in hell for not standing up to the official story (his wording). :jaw-dropp

Just an unbelieveable interview. And I love how every caller that brings their own "anaylsis" about the collapse is immedietly praised by Fetzer as he instantly accepts whatever they are saying as "an excellent point".

[Gravy]

Alright, I'm angry now. I'm going to go after the Scholars with everything I've got. Anybody who's compiled information on these guys, I want to know about it. I know James has a spreadsheet on them. Laura Ingraham is going to have Fetzer on tomorrow. I'm going to transcribe a few of the choicer bits from the Colmes show and send them to her; I think she'll be very angry at the Barbara Olsen's alive claim. Fetzer also said some embarrassing things at that Chicago convention a few weeks ago.
Hoorah! Yes, these are the biggest hypocrites of all. At least Avery and pals have the excuse, which they now choose to use, that they're just young idiots. But to call yourselves "Scholars," and then to produce the most anti-scholarly material imaginable, is disgusting.

I think it's important to point out that these papers have supposedly gone through peer-review by other "scholars": http://worldtradecentertruth.com/

Yes, they have been reviewed by the authors' peers: other idiots. These aren't drafts, they're finished products supposedly fit for an academic journal! Bwahahahaha!

And then to point out how the papers don't even stand up to scrutiny by non-experts. http://www.atfreeforum.com/911studies/viewforum.php?f=2&mforum=911studies

[Johnny Pixels]

Another technique would be for those who run debunking websites to list these people and state, "I challenge anyone to prove that these are structural engineers." Then maybe come CT will take the bait and come up with some credentials.

Maybe I should start crediting myself as Johnny Pixels, BEng (Hons) Automotive Engineering. I did try using it on the LC forum but they wanted to know how I could criticise an engineer who'd been working in his field for ages, when I had not worked in my field of expertise. I said that it was because he failed to display any of the training he received as an engineer, namely analytical thinking, and so he wasn't speaking as an engineer, ie just because he's an engineer doesn't make everything he says true in an engineering sense. I got fed up with them and got myself banned on purpose, so I had sign up again because I didn't want to miss out on the ninja wave.

[JamesB]

Why not email the head wingnuts and ask them about this?
James H. Fetzer jfetzer@d.umn.edu
Steven E. Jones HardEvidence@gmail.com

Another technique would be for those who run debunking websites to list these people and state, "I challenge anyone to prove that these are structural engineers." Then maybe come CT will take the bait and come up with some credentials.

That sounds like a good idea. I might have to do more on this when I get the chance. Lately most of CTs seem to be ignoring us. I guess we are not worthy of their attention.

Could Jones' e-mail be any more arrogant?

[Gravy]

The 9/11 scholars journal message board is fascinating. Way to go, gentlemen, in defending science.

Every Sat, the truthers go down to the WTC with some pamphlets and banners. A few saturdays ago I went down there and was amazed by the amount of information these people didn't know. This sat, I'm going back with a comedic piece that I wrote proving that I was responsible and links to Gravy's piece and the 911myths site. This time I will stand across the street with my own placard as last time people just assumed I was another CTer.

I certainly don't expect that I will change any of their minds, but maybe some people will think before they jump on the loose change bandwagon. Or not. But, hell, it'll make for a good video.

I'll be out there, handing out the link to my debunk of their literature. Thanks, Abby!

[Ducky]

That sounds like a good idea. I might have to do more on this when I get the chance. Lately most of CTs seem to be ignoring us. I guess we are not worthy of their attention.

Could Jones' e-mail be any more arrogant?



If I had less self control I'd find neat porn sites to sign up for with those emails and post them on usenet asking for scat porn.

[JamesB]

I'll be out there, handing out the link to my debunk of their literature. Thanks, Abby!

Hey, Abby and Gravy teaming up. Wonder twin powers, activate!

[Class]

I was thinking. Why do the Loosers deny the panacake collapse theory? Surely it works to their advantage because it reduces the amount of explosives required to achieve the collapse of the tower. By just having explosives sever the supports holding say one or two floors then the same collapse would happen, but with a much smaller number of explosives required. They wouldn't have to answer half as many questions about collapse times, cutting beams, explosives in the lobby etc, ie the main points they can't answer because they're wrong.

Obviously I know it's still a ridiculous idea, but the conspiracy theory seems to have be as different as possible from the official explanation. A good comparison I suppose would be having someone else shoot JFK, but from exactly the same position as Oswald. That way the theory is identical to the official story, but Oswald is the patsy. They'd never buy it because it's not different enough. How wierd is that?

ETA: And this is my 911th post too...

Whenever the pancake collapse is mentioned on the LC forums, someone will post a picture of a 3 or 4 story building collapse in Pakistan or some other country in the Middle East. The building had a pancake collapse from an earthquake and all the floors are stacked neatly on top of each other. It then follows with "Why don't the WTC towers look like this?"

It is then followed by me smacking my head against my desk.

[Ducky]

Hey, Abby and Gravy teaming up. Wonder twin powers, activate!


Shape of....

TAMPON!





*poof*





Now I play the waiting game....

[/family guy]

[sleahead]

I listened to Fetzer's interview with Alan Colmes earlier on. Amazing. I was expecting the cool, reasoned argument of an academic and instead heard the hysterical bluster of a typical CT nut. One thing I had to check. Early in the interview, Colmes and Fetzer correct an erroneous impression made in an earlier interview - that there were college courses on 9/11. But Fetzer goes on to say:

"I've learned, actually, since you last had me on, that there is a course for freshmen taught at Harvard, if my information is correct ,by a fellow called Ernest May, who interestingly was an advisor to the 9/11 Commission"

Professor Ernest May was a Senior Advisor to the 9/11 Commission. Sally Makacynas, Professor May's assistant, responded to my enquiry about any such course as follows:

"The course you've heard about is a small freshman seminar (limited to
12) which deals with 9/11 and the 9/11 Commission.
Sincerely,
Sally Makacynas"

So, a seminar not a course. Probably Professor May discussing his experience of the 9/11 commission and not the squib and thermite fest Fetzer would like to believe.

[tacodaemon]

I'll be out there, handing out the link to my debunk of their literature. Thanks, Abby!

You folks still planning on keeping an eye on Dylan and friends during the 9/11 stuff in September? I've been thinking about hopping on a train up to New York myself to watch all that go down.

On a not-really-related note, I was just checking out that "Free Press International" guy again and found out that he has what may be the world's lamest podcast (http://fpi.podomatic.com/). Great source there, Dylan.

[tacodaemon]

Whenever the pancake collapse is mentioned on the LC forums, someone will post a picture of a 3 or 4 story building collapse in Pakistan or some other country in the Middle East. The building had a pancake collapse from an earthquake and all the floors are stacked neatly on top of each other. It then follows with "Why don't the WTC towers look like this?"

It is then followed by me smacking my head against my desk.

That's about how I feel every time they make a big deal about WTC7 being 300 feet from the North Tower, without mentioning that the Twins were more than 1300 feet tall. And I especially have to restrain myself from beating my head against the wall every time they ask why WTC buildings 4, 5, and 6 didn't collapse the same way the taller-than-they-were-wide buildings in the complex did.

[Johnny C.]

I've just had a look at this thread. This was the post that got me:



Threatening someone with box cutters is illegal? But they're such a useless weapon. Why didn't he just laugh in his face like his hero Dylan Avery would?

Lmao. The irony, its painful.

Jenny didnt take this too well. She made a thread about it.

[Gravy]

You folks still planning on keeping an eye on Dylan and friends during the 9/11 stuff in September? I've been thinking about hopping on a train up to New York myself to watch all that go down.

One of my gubmint contacts says that before September all the CTs are going to be put in FEMA concentration camps, given injections of happy juice, and tracked with RFID implants, while a jet above releases chemtrails to surpress rebellion.

[JamesB]

Just finished the Fetzer/Wood interview show.

It's a total comedy act. I laughed out loud when she talked about the grand piano and the "parachute effect"...just listen to it, the whole thing is horrible. "Where are the pankakes?" There's at least 4 WTF?! moments in this. I can't believe people would say such stupid things.

Ever notice how most everything in the 9/11 truth movment is a (bad) analogy? Lots more of them in this interview.

So according to "Professor" Woods, it should have taken the WTC 97 seconds to collapse. OK....And all structural engineers in the world are keeping silent according to Fetzer, and they all have a special place reserved for them in hell for not standing up to the official story (his wording). :jaw-dropp

Just an unbelieveable interview. And I love how every caller that brings their own "anaylsis" about the collapse is immedietly praised by Fetzer as he instantly accepts whatever they are saying as "an excellent point".

I did a post on the damn em to hell section, and a bit more.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/jim-fetzer-condemns-all-structural.html

Now I need to take a break from this idiot, before I put my hand through the wall or something.

[Gravy]

You folks still planning on keeping an eye on Dylan and friends during the 9/11 stuff in September?
But seriously, yes, absolutely.

[Pangea]

Yes, some were, such as at least one of the calls Barbara Olson made to her husband from her personal phone. That's the one Avery says couldn't have happened because she wouldn't have been able to get her credit card out of her purse.

$&*^(*&()&$^%#^(&)(*_* !:mad:
Ah, thanks.

I echo your last statement.
$&*^(*&()&$^%#^(&)(*_* !:mad:

[dubfan]

I did a post on the damn em to hell section, and a bit more.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/jim-fetzer-condemns-all-structural.html

Now I need to take a break from this idiot, before I put my hand through the wall or something.

So it's "Nano-thermate" now.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Pangea]

"Where are the pankakes?"
LOL
This reminded me of an argument I had on another message board. The person I was arguing with said that the buildings couldn't have collapsed "pancake style" because, "the elevator shafts ran through the center of the building leaving a hole in the middle so it should have collapsed like a donut."
:covereyes

[XXX]

I did a post on the damn em to hell section, and a bit more.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/jim-fetzer-condemns-all-structural.html

Now I need to take a break from this idiot, before I put my hand through the wall or something.

I'm sure you've got several post's worth of material on this interview alone. So much stupidity in there. I love the blog BTW.

I swear, I need to make a list of all the moronic analogies that the 9/11 folks have made to try and explain things they don't understand. For example we have...

* WTC couldn't have collapsed like that because as a tree falls it doesn't turn into sawdust.

* WTC couldn't have collapsed because if the Kebler elves carved a home in the inside of a tree that tree wouldn't fall (listen to the interview!)

* No plane hit the Pentagon because if you stomp on a soda can (made from aluminum) the can doesn't disintegrate.

* No plane hit the Pentagon because if you light a kerosine fire under a soda can, the can doesn't "vaporize"

* No plane hit the WTC because if you build a little model of the WTC and push a model jet into it, the wings break off.

ect, ect...

[JamesB]

I'm sure you've got several post's worth of material on this interview alone. So much stupidity in there. I love the blog BTW.

I swear, I need to make a list of all the moronic analogies that the 9/11 folks have made to try and explain things they don't understand. For example we have...

* WTC couldn't have collapsed because if the Kebler elves carved a home in the inside of a tree that tree wouldn't fall (listen to the interview!)


ect, ect...


That was in there? You are joking right? It is hard to tell with these people.

[kookbreaker]

I'm sure you've got several post's worth of material on this interview alone. So much stupidity in there. I love the blog BTW.

I swear, I need to make a list of all the moronic analogies that the 9/11 folks have made to try and explain things they don't understand. For example we have...

* WTC couldn't have collapsed like that because as a tree falls it doesn't turn into sawdust.

* WTC couldn't have collapsed because if the Kebler elves carved a home in the inside of a tree that tree wouldn't fall (listen to the interview!)

* No plane hit the Pentagon because if you stomp on a soda can (made from aluminum) the can doesn't disintegrate.

* No plane hit the Pentagon because if you light a kerosine fire under a soda can, the can doesn't "vaporize"

* No plane hit the WTC because if you build a little model of the WTC and push a model jet into it, the wings break off.

ect, ect...

Has screwloose ever pointed at Ct'ers say the darndest things?

[XXX]

That was in there? You are joking right? It is hard to tell with these people.

I AM NOT KIDDING. Play the M3U, the part starts at 28:14, right after she talks about the moronic tree/sawdust parallel. Just listen. She even says that she said this AT AN ENGINEERING CONFERENCE!!

[JamesB]

I AM NOT KIDDING. Play the M3U, the part starts at 28:14, right after she talks about the moronic tree/sawdust parallel. Just listen. She even says that she said this AT AN ENGINEERING CONFERENCE!!

I knew it, it was the Keebler elves who were behind it! Damn little rodents... (muttering to self)

[Pangea]

There's a great show on the History Channel right now called "The 9-11 Hijackers: Inside the Hamburg Cell."
Anyone else watching?

From the History Channel Site:
For years, they remained nearly invisible, a small group of dedicated men waiting for the perfect chance to strike. Then, on September 11, 2001, after five years of preparation, they took action. Now, the full story and the details of their ambitious plan have come to light.

THE 9/11 HIJACKERS tracks the progress of the unassuming college students who became religious martyrs. These men, now known as the Hamburg Cell, were responsible for the cultivation of the al-Qaeda plot code-named "the planes operation". The group's leaders were four well-educated Muslim men who shared a common belief in radical Islam. Though Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Ziad Jarrah, and Ramzi Binalshibh hailed from different countries--Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Yemen--a spirit of brotherhood prevailed among them. And in time, they committed to a singular purpose--to translate their religious fanaticism into catastrophic action.

[gumboot]

Johndoex also claims to have flown at 2000ft regularly between Laguardia and JFK. This was in response to his claim that the twin towers were designed to take a full speed, full load, just taken off, aircraft strike, not just a low fuel, low speed, lost in fog, trying to land. I pointed that the nearest airports were 8 miles away from the WTC complex, and I wanted to know why a plane would be flying at 1300ft, and therefore endangering the towers, when it took off 8 miles away.

The FAA has a minimum obstruction clearance altitute (MOCA) of 1000ft for altitudes below 5,000ft and 2,000ft for altitudes above 5,000ft. In other words, if you're flying over a city you have to maintain an altitude at least 1,000ft above the highest building.

This (http://home.comcast.net/~nhfa/chart_clinic_11.pdf) article has a little info on MOCA's and the attempt to standardise them around the world.

-Andrew

[Ducky]

There's a great show on the History Channel right now called "The 9-11 Hijackers: Inside the Hamburg Cell."
Anyone else watching?

From the History Channel Site:


What History Channel are you watching? I'm seeing "Snackfood Tech" on Modern Marvels!


(Or would be if I hadn't had Comcast Cable take away my History Channel service after "Psychic History.")

[XXX]

I knew it, it was the Keebler elves who were behind it! Damn little rodents... (muttering to self)

Of course!

Here's the elf that fired the missle into the Pentagon...

http://www.simexds.com/gfx_stills/keebler_02.jpg

Here they are faking the plane passengers...

http://www.simexds.com/gfx_stills/keebler_03.jpg

And here they are measuring just how many people bought into their fake 9/11 hijackers story...

http://www.simexds.com/gfx_stills/keebler_05.jpg

It makes sense now! Elvin magic my ass!

[gumboot]

The ship is then only required to load, store and carry one kind of fuel.

Well, two, because there's the Av-gas as well for the Hawkeye's, Greyhounds, and choppers... :P

But it's probably easier to make an engine that can run on kerosene than one that runs on av-gas. The Humvee - for example - can run on petrol, kerosene, or diesel.

Still... if he's talking about the actual tankers, not the tugs, they're just standard trucks. It's not logical to run them on jet fuel, it would cost a fortune. (It would make them a hellava more powerful though...)

-Andrew

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I'm about to get the ban hammer from the loosers again.

Any suggestions for a good "going out with a bang" post before the mods wake up?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'm bowing out of the den of stupid that is the LC forums for a while. It's not good for my BP. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7171

[Ducky]

I'm about to get the ban hammer from the loosers again.

Any suggestions for a good "going out with a bang" post before the mods wake up?



I dunno about a last post, but I suggest you google the word "Tor" and read up on a way to get around their ip bans.

That way you can just start up a sock when you get banned.

That's what the rest of us do.

[MarkyX]

Post a framegrab from one of the Guinea Pig horror films (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Pig_%28film_series%29)

[Gravy]

Post a framegrab from one of the Guinea Pig horror films (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Pig_%28film_series%29)
Damn! CT hero Charlie Sheen "squealed" to "Teh Boss!"

[Ducky]

Post a framegrab from one of the Guinea Pig horror films (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Pig_%28film_series%29)


Oh boy:

. They became infamous when Charlie Sheen mistook one for a snuff film and contacted the FBI to report it

That guy is all sorts of gullible isn't he?

[MarkyX]

My latest piece: Comparing the traits of a cult to the "Truth" Movement.

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/cult.htm

First draft, expect spelling errors and poor grammar

[Gravy]

I'm about to get the ban hammer from the loosers again.

Any suggestions for a good "going out with a bang" post before the mods wake up?
You could ask them why they still support "Loose Change," which gets every claim wrong, and which was created by people with no respect for the truth or for the victims of 9/11.

[Gravy]

I got a PM about this online chat that's going to happen with Jim Fetzer. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread214411/pg1

I requested to be included in the discussion group. Sign up and do the same! (It only takes a minute to register at ATS.)

[gumboot]

Apparently the 767s used were refitted military tankers to carry passengers, or something like that anyway. I asked, why would they refit tankers when they could just get a passenger version and save themselves the hassle.



Aside from a minor problem here...

The first orders for the KC-767 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC-767) military tanker were placed in July 2001 for Italy (for delivery between April 2006 and July 2008). The United States Air Force has considered replacing its KC-135 tankers with KC-767s, and as of 2006 it will be leasing (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/kc767/) 100 of them for trials.

In May 2003, the US Air Force announced that it would lease 100 tankers to replace the oldest of its KC-135 tankers, subject to congressional approval. The lease would be for six years, starting in 2006. An option to buy at the end of the lease was included in the deal.

In other words... in September 2001 no airforce in the world operated a tanker variant of the Boeing 767. The USAF operated (and currently still does) only KC-135 Stratotankers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-135_Stratotanker) (modified version of the Boeing Dash-80) and KC-10 Extenders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-10_Extender) (modified version of the DC-10).

All the above took about 2 minutes to discover with Google. In fact typing up this post, and pasting in all the relevent URLs took much longer than finding it all. These CTers must really want the truth!

-Andrew

EDT. Just read JamesB's post... he beat me too it. :)

[XXX]

I got a PM about this online chat that's going to happen with Jim Fetzer. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread214411/pg1

I requested to be included in the discussion group. Sign up and do the same! (It only takes a minute to register at ATS.)

According to their selection criteria, I doubt I'd be accepted as one of the 20 who get to question him. I'm just too honest.

"Hello, I just signed up for your forum, and the reason I want to talk to Jim Fetzer is because I want to blast him for being such a moron. Thank you."

(stamp) REJECTED

[Brainster]

I got a PM about this online chat that's going to happen with Jim Fetzer. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread214411/pg1

I requested to be included in the discussion group. Sign up and do the same! (It only takes a minute to register at ATS.)

I get the sense they are not looking for skeptics:

We will be striving to select an equal balance of members who represent the varying opinions of 9/11 conspiracies.

And later, in the comments:

People, we will insist on a degree of respect for special guests.

In addition, AboveTopSecret.com is a conspiracy theory website.

Of course, maybe we could get in as believing in a conspiracy theory involving 19 Arabs with box cutters?

[Brainster]

I'm about to get the ban hammer from the loosers again.

Any suggestions for a good "going out with a bang" post before the mods wake up?

Maybe a post on this thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7124) telling them to repent, it's not too late to save their relationships with their families and friends, to drop the conspiracy theories before they end up like Charlie Sheen (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0421061sheen5.html), whose wife is divorcing him partially over his 9-11 nuttiness?

[gumboot]

Oh yeah... and this (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar2000/953774152.Ch.r.html) site addresses the question "Can Jet-A fuels substitude for 1-D or 2-D Diesel?

Remember, while there is only one basic Jet A species, there are several
kinds of diesel - diesel No. 1 and diesel No. 2 (amongst others). Jet A is
more like Diesel No. 1. Diesel No. 2 is the more common "diesel" fuel,
since it is the fuel used by vehicles "on-road". One of the main
differences between them is their distillation boiling ranges. Diesel No. 2
has a higher (in temperature) boiling range and is more dense than Jet A
and/or diesel No. 1 (both of which have lower densities and lower
boiling range temperatures). A fuel which is less dense will have lower
fuel economy (less BTU's per gallon).

May explain differences in Diesel ignition temperature on different websites.

In addition:

So the bottom line is that although Jet-A may not cause immediate damage to
a diesel engine and may allow the engine to run OK, its use may cause
premature wear or fouling of the fuel system, and you may be breaking EPA
regulations as well as not paying appropriate taxes. Outside the US,
differences in viscosity still mean that the use of Jet-A for Diesel No. 1
may cause early wear of the fuel system. Kind of like running 10 weight
oil in a car designed for 30 weight. So how much risk are you willing to
take, because no engine manufacturer or fuel supplier will take part of the
risk?

-Andrew

[JamesB]

I get the sense they are not looking for skeptics:



And later, in the comments:



Of course, maybe we could get in as believing in a conspiracy theory involving 19 Arabs with box cutters?

People, we will insist on a degree of respect for special guests.

In addition, AboveTopSecret.com is a conspiracy theory website.

As much respect as Fetzer shows the families of 9/11 victims? Or the rules of logic for that matter.

I couldn't do this. I don't think I could hold my temper trying to talk with that idiot. I would start slamming my head against the keyboard or something.

[Ducky]

Maybe a post on this thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7124) telling them to repent, it's not too late to save their relationships with their families and friends, to drop the conspiracy theories before they end up like Charlie Sheen (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0421061sheen5.html), whose wife is divorcing him partially over his 9-11 nuttiness?


Given his repeated drug abuse, his paranoia over 9/11 and people breaking into his house certainly make it easy to explain why he would mistake a movie for an actual snuff film and call the FBI.

People that whacked out on drugs aren't very good critical thinkers.

[CptColumbo]

Given his repeated drug abuse, his paranoia over 9/11 and people breaking into his house certainly make it easy to explain why he would mistake a movie for an actual snuff film and call the FBI.

People that whacked out on drugs aren't very good critical thinkers.
Denise Richards got a restraining order against him, last I heard.

[Ducky]

Denise Richards got a restraining order against him, last I heard.


She's so far above him it's sick.

Wayyy too hot to be stuck with a tool like him.

[kookbreaker]

I get the sense they are not looking for skeptics:

I'd give them some benefit of the doubt, since they made the presentation that it most definately was a plane that hit the Pentagon part of their permenant display:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

That was one of the first cohesive efforts to debunk the nonsense displayed by the no-Plane idiots. Its work still stands up to this day. Just don't read the comments since about 1 in 100 actually bothered to read the articel before shooting off their mouths.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

She's so far above him it's sick.

Wayyy too hot to be stuck with a tool like him.

I've been in love with her since Tammy and the T-Rex.

[Orb]

Maybe a post on this thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7124) telling them to repent, it's not too late to save their relationships with their families and friends, to drop the conspiracy theories before they end up like Charlie Sheen (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0421061sheen5.html), whose wife is divorcing him partially over his 9-11 nuttiness?


Wow, that link with the statements from Sheen's wife is really scary. I know its only one side of a story, but drugs, prostitutes, gambling, and gay (suspected pedophile) porn? Why are the looser so excited to have him on their side?

[gumboot]

Clearly Sheen's wife is just a gubmint shill attempting to smear his honest name...

-Andrew

[Ducky]

Wow, that link with the statements from Sheen's wife is really scary. I know its only one side of a story, but drugs, prostitutes, gambling, and gay (suspected pedophile) porn? Why are the looser so excited to have him on their side?


This page (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0421061sheen4.html) is scarier. The complete explosion over vaccinating the kids and his violent behavior toward his pregnant wife (AND THE PEDIATRICIAN!!!!) is completely insane.

And he calls a CHIROPRACTOR for advice on vaccines?

This guy's fifty times more insane and nasty than I expected.

[Abbyas]

I'll be out there, handing out the link to my debunk of their literature. Thanks, Abby!

Awesome!

Just a quick note, if you do pass out materials, make sure that you are distinguishable from the CTers. I had some nice chats with them, but when I tried to pass out my own stuff, civilians thought I was with them.

I'm gonna make me a poster saying "9/11 was NOT an inside job. But Manipulating Evidence Can Still Be Fun!" and stay some distance away.

I'm bringing a buddy down to videotape my adventure, but I'm worried that police will frown on videocameras downtown. Or am I thinking about this too much.

[Orb]

Reading further...
OMG! He was emailing pictures of his aroused member to prostitutes on the internet? He also pushed his wife down while she was holding their infant daughter? 17 pages of this stuff?
I'm going to go through my DVD collection tonight and throw out everything he was ever in. I never want to watch another movie with that woo lunatic wifebeating child abusing drug addict bastage again. :a2:

[CptColumbo]

Awesome!

Just a quick note, if you do pass out materials, make sure that you are distinguishable from the CTers. I had some nice chats with them, but when I tried to pass out my own stuff, civilians thought I was with them.

I'm gonna make me a poster saying "9/11 was NOT an inside job. But Manipulating Evidence Can Still Be Fun!" and stay some distance away.

I'm bringing a buddy down to videotape my adventure, but I'm worried that police will frown on videocameras downtown. Or am I thinking about this too much.
If it's in a public place there isn't much they can do. If it's private property it's up to the owners (or leasers). If you have footage of other people and want to use it you should get a waiver from them, or obscure their face.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well, they got me.

Of course, they never tell you why they ban you. But if I had to guess, this time was likely due to my throwing JohndoeX's logic bomb back in his face with the pin removed.

This just occurred to me... if the FEMA report trumps the first hand eyewitness testimony of an 18 year veteran of the New York Fire Department, then it also trumps ALL eyewitness testimony.

There goes all your reports of explosions being heard.

I guess the truthseeker cultists believe that it's ok to accept, without question, government reports when it's convenient for them. But for outsiders to point out this behavior or exploit it to thier own advantage is a heinous blasphemy and sacrelige.

Cult brainwashing at it's finest.

[Brainster]

Wow, that link with the statements from Sheen's wife is really scary. I know its only one side of a story, but drugs, prostitutes, gambling, and gay (suspected pedophile) porn? Why are the looser so excited to have him on their side?

Because the minute he opened his yap their stuff was getting discussed on Fox and CNN. They're happy even to be abused if it means getting "the word" out. There's a hilarious Opie & Anthony interview with a Truther named John Gold from a couple of years ago that shows how much the guy will put up with to be on the radio. They insult the guy mercilessly the whole time he's trying to put out his case. I'll see if I can find the link. Warning: It's extremely vulgar; it's from Satellite Radio so there are no FCC rules.

A lot of people didn't pay much attention to this. Of course, as a member of the VRWC, I got the email from Rove telling me to check TSG. ;)

[Gravy]

I'm gonna make me a poster saying "9/11 was NOT an inside job. But Manipulating Evidence Can Still Be Fun!" and stay some distance away.

I'm bringing a buddy down to videotape my adventure, but I'm worried that police will frown on videocameras downtown. Or am I thinking about this too much.
Oh, snap!
If anyone has questions you can't answer, you can always refer them to me across the street. I know the NY911truth.org literature inside and out.

My technique is to only hand my material to those who've gotten info from the CTs.

There's no law against photography in any public space in NYC. Thousands of people take photos at Ground Zero every day, so don't fret about that. My only concern is that the police generally don't like "protest-related" activities at GZ. They might ask you to...move across the street. (If they do haul you away, I'll take pictures!)

[JamesB]

Reading further...
OMG! He was emailing pictures of his aroused member to prostitutes on the internet? He also pushed his wife down while she was holding their infant daughter? 17 pages of this stuff?
I'm going to go through my DVD collection tonight and throw out everything he was ever in. I never want to watch another movie with that woo lunatic wifebeating child abusing drug addict bastage again. :a2:

Hey, Charlie ruled in Red Dawn. Wolverines!!!!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Hey, Charlie ruled in Red Dawn. Wolverines!!!!

Red Dawn was more of an ensemble cast, with no one member carrrying the show.

Sheen's current behavior is an excellent reason to keep Red Dawn in your collection as nothing goes against Sheen's current nonsense quite like a two hour campaign ad for a president who pushed the largest peacetime buildup in military history on the grounds that America needed protection from an "evil empire".

[MarkyX]

Hey Gravy, did you a small favor.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16569875&blogID=138496523&indicate=1

And I took a screenie of my entry on my index site in case he deletes it.

[Gravy]

Hey Gravy, did you a small favor.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16569875&blogID=138496523&indicate=1

And I took a screenie of my entry on my index site in case he deletes it.
Heh. Thanks. I'm sure I'll be getting a call from his agent to set up that debate real soon....

[Sword_Of_Truth]

My latest piece: Comparing the traits of a cult to the "Truth" Movement.

http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/cult.htm

First draft, expect spelling errors and poor grammar

I thought long and hard about posting something on the now defunct United 93 movie boards about the truthseekers similarities to cult indoctrination, but every rough draft I came up with in my head came out as a giant piece of troll bait designed to inflame and outrage what I called "the tinfoil turbans" (I frequently described the truthseekers as being evolved from extremist islam due to the effect thier movement has on the wests political will to fight the war on terror).

But there is an actual serious observation I have on the truthers and thier similarities to religious movements.

I am happy as a member of the mormon faith. And yes, we are very much a missionary church. When new converts join the church and find a place within it, I'm happy for them too.

That being said, I have observed in new members of the church, a passion for the new "truth" they have found and a strong desire to share it with others. This "urge to convert" starts off very strong and most often diminishes in time as they find an equilibrium that is comfortable for them.

The attitudes of the truthseekers bear a strong similarity to this behavior. They come upon a truth wich they believe will save the world and go about with a desperate urgency to share it with as many as who will listen. The truthseeker faith pushes proselytization every bit as strongly as mine does.

The difference between the newly minted mormons I have observed and the truthseekers (a cult name if there ever was one) is the truthseekers combine with a madness and a belief that the truth must be known NOW. My own religion has one or more doctrinal "escape hatches" that tend to temper the compulsions of fresh converts.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. - Joseph Smith; "The Articles of Faith"

The truthseekers appear to have no similar doctrine of tolerance as is evidenced by thier labelling infidels and unbelievers as CIA disinformation agents or even reptilian shapeshifters (my personal favorite).

[dubfan]

Yes.

I don't think it's a cult. But it is a religion.

[MarkyX]

Yes.

I don't think it's a cult. But it is a religion.

I see no difference between the two :cool:

[60hzxtl]

Awesome!
I'm bringing a buddy down to videotape my adventure, but I'm worried that police will frown on videocameras downtown. Or am I thinking about this too much.


The only time you need a release is if you are going to broadcast it, or make money on it. If you are nervous, PM me and I'll send you a standard release form.

That's how we do news on any given day, on any given corner. I've worked for the 3 lettered networks, PBS, and a raft of cable folks with longer names.

In a public place, fire at will. If it is smaller than a betacam, then "hey, I'm just a tourist."
I might see you guys there, if I can tear myself away from a deadline. I'll id, but not engage. (saving myself for Sept 11, 2006 Ninja work which is why I won't register over there.)

[60hzxtl]

Yes.

I don't think it's a cult. But it is a religion.


It's a Cult!

It's a religion!

Stop! You're both right!

(ooooh, I'm showing my age.)

[dubfan]

I see no difference between the two :cool:

Well dude, I just read your paper, and I gotta say, you make a pretty convincing case. Maybe they are a cult.

Btw, I'd never heard this before:

http://nwobeastomfg.ytmnd.com/

Wow.

[MarkyX]

Well dude, I just read your paper, and I gotta say, you make a pretty convincing case. Maybe they are a cult.

Btw, I'd never heard this before:

http://nwobeastomfg.ytmnd.com/

Wow.

Yeah, I am a frequent visitor of YTMND and I just typed in "Alex Jones" for the hell of it and came up with that.

There is more sites like that on him, but nothing nearly as insane as this one.

[Gravy]

Btw, I'd never heard this before:

http://nwobeastomfg.ytmnd.com/

Wow.
Oh, my! Forget "the Beast," it sounds like the evil of "the Drink" is upon ol' Alex.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well dude, I just read your paper, and I gotta say, you make a pretty convincing case. Maybe they are a cult.

Btw, I'd never heard this before:

http://nwobeastomfg.ytmnd.com/

Wow.

Did I hear that right? Did he say he was going to "play some renegades" at the end of the clip?

Does he mean the Tribes 2 modification? I LOVED air-whoring (can I say that here?) in the rocket equipped shrike. ;)

[tacodaemon]

Hey Gravy, did you a small favor.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16569875&blogID=138496523&indicate=1

And I took a screenie of my entry on my index site in case he deletes it.

Check out that "FOX" guy -- another "why don't you make a counter-documentary" argument. Because heaven forfend these people should have to read anything instead of having it read aloud to them. No wonder the best analogy some of them can come up with is to a TV commercial series featuring cookie-making cartoon elves. (I'm gonna be laughing about that Keebler Elves analogy for weeks.)

[Brainster]

As I mentioned earlier, this MP3 of Truther named Jon Gold is pretty amusing because it shows how much abuse these guys will take just to get on the radio. Warning: Contains a fair amount of strong language (http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/gold9472oanda1.mp3); this is taken from satellite radio and apparently they feel free to spice it up with some f-bombs.

Fetzer is still scheduled for Laura Ingraham tomorrow at 10:30 AM EDT (assuming no big news story hits tomorrow morning). I'll try to get on and lead with a question about Barbara Olson; I want to ask him where he got the information she's alive. I suspect that will get Laura to go off on him; obviously she knew Olson and probably knows where Ted Olson is living.

If Olson's already come up I'll hit him with what happened to the passengers; his energetic dancing around that particular question on Colmes was quite amusing.

Fingers crossed I can get through; if any of you others want to try it would help the cause!

[Regnad Kcin]

Reading further...
OMG! He was emailing pictures of his aroused member to prostitutes on the internet? He also pushed his wife down while she was holding their infant daughter? 17 pages of this stuff?
I'm going to go through my DVD collection tonight and throw out everything he was ever in. I never want to watch another movie with that woo lunatic wifebeating child abusing drug addict bastage again. :a2:Bolding mine.

Sadly, that would include Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Oh well.

[CptColumbo]

Not Red Dawn, it's the Swayziest!

[Regnad Kcin]

I'm going to go after the Scholars with everything I've got. Anybody who's compiled information on these guys, I want to know about it.All I know is: they're idiots.

Does that help ?Here's what I don't understand. Based on the numerous CTers who've posted to these related threads (at this forum), I'd say none reveal any indication they have learned anything and their position would as a result be modified or reevaluated.

Me, I completely dig learning new things, not to mention expanding my expertise on topics I enjoy a passing familiarity with. And if I'm error anywhere, I wanna know. That way I can make the fix so as to not reveal ignorance and/or continue to embarrass myself. I'm eager to make necessary adjustments inside my skull!

Now, ego may play a part in the apparent reluctance for CTers to change. But that "logic" escapes me as well, considering most are anonymous entities with identities shrouded behind noms-de-keyboard. The only one likely to ever know they adapted is their own self.

All this is all the more perplexing considering so many components of the alternate 9/11 theories are so far beyond rationality. And considering the official story is simple, sufficiently detailed, and fairly dripping with common sense, it's all the more...mystifying.

[Mancman]

Well dude, I just read your paper, and I gotta say, you make a pretty convincing case. Maybe they are a cult.

Btw, I'd never heard this before:

http://nwobeastomfg.ytmnd.com/

Wow.

Oh dear. :eek:

[60hzxtl]

The cter's are breaking down into factions for their own "troooth".

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7186

Fun to watch the "I'm the king of my site and all I survey" schisms begin as each becomes their own saviors.

[aggle-rithm]

Well, they got me.

Of course, they never tell you why they ban you. But if I had to guess, this time was likely due to my throwing JohndoeX's logic bomb back in his face with the pin removed.

This just occurred to me... if the FEMA report trumps the first hand eyewitness testimony of an 18 year veteran of the New York Fire Department, then it also trumps ALL eyewitness testimony.

There goes all your reports of explosions being heard.

I guess the truthseeker cultists believe that it's ok to accept, without question, government reports when it's convenient for them. But for outsiders to point out this behavior or exploit it to thier own advantage is a heinous blasphemy and sacrelige.

Cult brainwashing at it's finest.


Were you banned, or permenantly suspended?

I think that's their new strategy: They don't actually ban you, and don't contact you about it so they can claim it was a mistake, if they are cornered. None of the mods have to take responsibility for their heavy-handed actions, which are so contrary to the spirit of truth and freedom that they preach.

[VespaGuy]

The cter's are breaking down into factions for their own "troooth".

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7186

Fun to watch the "I'm the king of my site and all I survey" schisms begin as each becomes their own saviors.

From that thread:

(djlegacy describing his new CT website/forums)
I just added about 100 Smileys for all of you Emoticon lovers, like me and Rox

You're not a real CT until you litter your posts with smileys!!

[MarkyX]

A small conversation I had on YouTube. I believe I need a PWNED image.

Name has been hidden to protect the stupid.


The fact that you are using the exact video of those you are trying to rebut already sets you up to have no credibility whatsoever. I bet it took you a longer time to add your "genius" quotes into "their" movie than it took you to make the quotes. Moving on.....your sources. All websites lack in any substantial secondary support or outside sources. The arguements presented in your terrible selection for sources all came from the commision report. If you didnt know this, the commision report is the exact thing the movie refutes. 911myths.com....you went to a website that is based off myths and not fact. What the movie does is give actual facts and puts them together in a way that makes us question the "truth" about 911. Dont even try to refute something that took 2 years to make with your ill-witted movie that took an hour to make.

There are no facts in Loose Change. A fact is a statement that cannot be proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that there is my video, 911myths, and a few simple searches in Google can challenge EVERY statement in Loose Change should trigger something between your ears.

The truth is already out there about 9/11, but you just need something to justify your behavior and agenda against Bush or anything government related, so when real experts come forward, you ignore them because they don't set your own viewpoint. You are not the first person to contact me with your linear predictable critique, and it sure as hell won't be the last.

You are living proof that our education system is a failure.


"You are living proof that our education system is a failure."
In other words, "Bush, get your head out of your ass and fix it."
How about that for justification besides 911? And I hate to tell you, but I go to a private school that ranks top 25 academically. Thanks for putting words into my mouth that are non existent. Why would I need to use 911 in a desperate attempt to make Bush look like and ass when his approval rating is at an all time low. Also keep in mind that most of the people who have ranked him for approval have never even heard of loose change. Therefore, there is clearly enough **** to complain about Bush besides 911. In fact, he was and still is praised for 911 and how he brought us to have such patriotism. That’s one of the few things he is holding onto right now. Now don’t even pull out definitions and ****. You said a fact is something that cant be proven otherwise. What did loose change do with the commission report? Proved it otherwise. So the commission report isn’t fact either??? Who is telling the truth? Simply put, the movie is a damn good documentary that just wants to make us aware of our government. Yes, the American government could be corrupt without our knowledge. And you want to talk about real experts? THE MOVIE HAS REAL EXPERTS ON THEIR SIDE! 1. Military personnel knowing the smell of cordite and kerosene. 2. A janitor who had 20 years of experience in the Trade Centers and knew them like the back of his hands. 3. Head of Controlled Demolition saying the way the towers fell looked dead on to a controlled demolition. So yes, I am letting the real experts come forward and I’m NOT ignoring them. Lets not mention my obsession with national geographic and me watching documentary's on the commission reports side. So I thinks its safe to say my views aren’t biased ruling out me hating Bush. Please, argue with me more. It’s like a paid vacation to argue with you. I also want to hear something good from you. If you say something that really makes me question the makers of loose change I would have let you know. Nothing yet.


Do you know what "Critical Thinking" is?

It's a process in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and imposing intellectual standards upon them. Some examples of Critical Thinking are raising vital questions and problems, and using abstract ideas to come up with well-reasoned conclusions. Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking.

I bring this up because it's quite obvious from the dozens of messages I get a day from pro-Loose Changer viewers like yourself that they do not practice the concept of Critical Thinking. Instead of questioning the credibility of Loose Change or do your own research, you accept the "film" as fact at face-value. Very ironic thing to do, because the one of the more common insults that Conspriacy Theorists use against those who defend the official story is "sheep". I guess it takes one to know one.

Second, you bring up George Bush about some useless facts from him exploiting 9/11 to go to Iraq to his approval ratings. I fail to see how this is evidence of a coverup, as opposed to George Bush being a lousy leader of the most powerful nation. This also shows your true agenda on the whole issue. You simply do not care about the victims or the "truth", instead you are looking for ways to justify your hate towards Bush more. Much like a scientist to a religion scholar, you shut off your senses because I am a threat to your faith and you will defend it by any means necessary including ignoring evidence. I guess it's pretty easy to attack the government, since they don't fight back.

Loose Change did not prove anything whatsoever that goes against the commission report or anything in the official story. Numerous sites and my video have exposed just how poorly manufactured the theories are. It is not my fault, or the government's fault, that you refuse evidence.

The experts? For starters, the pentagon is a military building, so it's not big surprise that cordite and kerosene would be inside the pentagon. Cordite is not used in missile, but in warships.

The janitor was no where near the incident and wasn't the one who ran for his life down the stairs, pleading to God that they find a fire fighter. He was hundreds of feet away from the incident and underground. His existence also goes against the whole "thermite bombs in the basement" that Steven E. Jones argues on his paper (not even peer reviewed by Structual Engineers).

Finally, CDI has stated already that the idea of WTC being bought down by bombs was impossible. They do not agree with you.

Just remember that on my side, I have structual engineers, the head of materials engineering at MIT, and several other engineers.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html

http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/clifton.pdf

And something about Steven E. Jones. Notice how Structual Engineers disagree with him.

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/jones.htm

Continue on your journey chasing shadows. I'm sure we can make it into an interesting japanese animation series.

[Brainster]

Here's what I don't understand. Based on the numerous CTers who've posted to these related threads (at this forum), I'd say none reveal any indication they have learned anything and their position would as a result be modified or reevaluated.

Me, I completely dig learning new things, not to mention expanding my expertise on topics I enjoy a passing familiarity with. And if I'm error anywhere, I wanna know. That way I can make the fix so as to not reveal ignorance and/or continue to embarrass myself. I'm eager to make necessary adjustments inside my skull!

Now, ego may play a part in the apparent reluctance for CTers to change. But that "logic" escapes me as well, considering most are anonymous entities with identities shrouded behind noms-de-keyboard. The only one likely to ever know they adapted is their own self.

All this is all the more perplexing considering so many components of the alternate 9/11 theories are so far beyond rationality. And considering the official story is simple, sufficiently detailed, and fairly dripping with common sense, it's all the more...mystifying.

Two things:

1. Every CTer is a pedant at heart. They are the teachers, we are the pupils.
Our evidence is not interesting to them; in many ways it just represents our unwillingness to learn.

2. The CTer has the trump card for the evidence that disproves their theory: It's all part of the coverup. "Gravy is CIA" is an effective debunking of a 145-page document.

[Hellbound]

Huntsman, do your figures apply to the sort of linear shaped charges used by professional demolition contractors in the civilian market, or do they apply to the use of bulk explosives to break things by brute force?

Either way the CTer claims seem to go smash against ugly reality- if you postulate the use of shaped charges to cut the steel (and kicker charges to prevent the cut ends from jamming together and continuing to act in compression), the question of how the conspirators could have gained the direct access to structural members that would require and conceal all trace of their activities in a working office building. If you assume bulk explosives, then the question becomes one of how you bring in and place such large quantities of explosives while concealing your activities and avoid producing the signs that such a big KABOOM would leave behind.

I don't suppose there's any way of working out the minimum time to plant those charges, ie time taken to drill into concrete or steel + time taken to plant C-4, just to give an idea of how ridiculous the idea of fitting the whole thing into the power down periods that they suggest?

Sorry, I made a mistake. I realized this was the calculation I did assuming the existence of a concrete core (a la Christophera).

However, if anyone can get me a volume of concrete for the amount in the building (in cubic feet), I can easily convert it to a good, round figure. Of course, if the floors are thinner than 4' thick (a good assumption), you'd need more charges and a higher total. Thinking about it, I probably need to get info on the thickness and dimensions of floors, and I can refigure the amounts and number of charges. TO be nice, I can figure it with the charges placed on the outside of the floor (for ease of placement) and the inside (for lower total C-4).

As for the time it would require, hard to say. I'll need to look at the numbers again.

ktesibios:

SHaped charges would be useless for pulverizing concrete. Shaped charges are used for cutting, as they direct the blast in a specific direction. IF you want to pulverize all the concrete, you'll end up needing MORE explosives using shaped charges, as well as exponentially increasing the required time for placement. You want an undirected blast to pulverize the concrete, preferrably placed so the blast is just enough to breech the concrete side-to-side (or top-to-bottom).

On the steel beams, it works out to an average 64 lb. charge to cut each beam (more for outer core beams, less for inner). That is an unshaped charge, simply a single-side placement. Shaped you can easily cut that figure in half. So, about a ton and you cut cut all the core columns in one location, assuming you had direct access to the steel.

However, if you back off the steel, even a few feet, suddenly your shaped charges are much less effective. It's an exponential scale using r[sup3[/sup]. Basically, if you place the explosive twice as far away, you need eight times as much. Even a foot away is enough to significantly add to the amount of explosive needed.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Were you banned, or permenantly suspended?

I think that's their new strategy: They don't actually ban you, and don't contact you about it so they can claim it was a mistake, if they are cornered. None of the mods have to take responsibility for their heavy-handed actions, which are so contrary to the spirit of truth and freedom that they preach.

Nope, I definately got banned.

Not that it really matters as Johndoe just got MASSIVELY embarassed and humiliated over his "realistic collapse plume" nonsense.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7139&st=90

I guess he should have checked with reality before arbitrarily deciding what was realistic. :p

[Pangea]

What History Channel are you watching? I'm seeing "Snackfood Tech" on Modern Marvels!


(Or would be if I hadn't had Comcast Cable take away my History Channel service after "Psychic History.")
Oops! It was the History International Channel.
Sorry!

[Trifikas]

Nope, I definately got banned.

Not that it really matters as Johndoe just got MASSIVELY embarassed and humiliated over his "realistic collapse plume" nonsense.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7139&st=90

I guess he should have checked with reality before arbitrarily deciding what was realistic. :p


Someone needs to go over and thank JohnDoeX for finally destroying the "Fell into it's own footprint" myth once and for all, however...

[Johnny Pixels]

Lmao. The irony, its painful.

Jenny didnt take this too well. She made a thread about it.
Hey, I'm famous. Well I can't post over at the LC forum because I was suspended until today, but my posting priviledges have been revoked.

So if you're reading this Jenabell

It's an often said thing over there that boxcutters are harmless. So why was this kid crapping his pants when his dad waved one at him? He knew his dad wasn't going to take a slice out of his face. Imagine the fear when a mad man has just hijacked your plane and threatens you with one.

For reference, here's a picture of a girl slashed with a razor blade, a box cutter has more leverage as it has a handle, and so would cut deeper. how would you feel knowing that if someone slashed you with one, you could well lose your eyes?:

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8930/40933238shanni2033007qr.jpg

[Brainster]

Nope, I definately got banned.

Not that it really matters as Johndoe just got MASSIVELY embarassed and humiliated over his "realistic collapse plume" nonsense.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7139&st=90

I guess he should have checked with reality before arbitrarily deciding what was realistic. :p

Yeesh, what a moron. Love that collapse plume that somehow misses the WFC buildings and the Winter Garden. Oh, and this bit:

Verizon didnt get hit which was maybe 10 feet away from WTC 7 damage.

Is typical nonsense (http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/fig-7-10.jpg). Do these guys know anything?

[rikzilla]

Someone needs to go over and thank JohnDoeX for finally destroying the "Fell into it's own footprint" myth once and for all, however...

Well when these idiots are as intellectually dishonest as their hero Dylan I'd sincerely doubt that they'd refrain from using previously debunked "facts". After all, how many objections were raised by non-JREFers when Dylan was caught passing off blog pages as if they were news articles printed by the mainstream press?

No. the "footprint" story will remain...after all...they all "saw" it fall into it's own footprint on the video!! Haven't you done your research!!?? Go now..watch all the films on universalseed.com...keep watching until all doubt fades. Drink the koolaid....DRINK IT!!!

-z

[MarkyX]

More and more like a cult everyday.

[Brainster]

She decided to debate him herself without allowing any listeners. Although she started out saying that it was easy to just mock the other guys as nuts, her "tough question" was about the guy who spoke in Chicago that lives in a cave.

She even let Fetzer come off as moderate by asking him about previous terrorist attacks. But since a couple of them (the Cole and the embassy bombings in Africa) happened during the Clinton Administration he was happy to admit that they were probably terrorist attacks and not government-sponsored. It would have been much better if she'd asked him questions about 9-11, like what hit the towers, what hit the Pentagon, etc. Or hit him up with questions about the ridiculous other conspiracies he does believe in, like Wellstone being assassinated or Zapruder being part of the JFK plot. Didn't strike me as great show prep.

I can understand it though; there are two theories about how to handle the Truthers. One is scorn, the other is with facts and evidence. I suspect both work with those who are not true believers, and unfortunately, that neither works with those who are.

Easy prediction: Everybody over at 9-11 Blogger will be thrilled.

[dubfan]

However, if anyone can get me a volume of concrete for the amount in the building (in cubic feet), I can easily convert it to a good, round figure.

From Greenings paper "ENERGY TRANSFER IN THE WTC COLLAPSE" (http://911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf):

Each floor had a layer of lightweight concrete 4 inches (0.1 m) thick.
The net floor area was 2909 m2, giving 290.9 m3 of concrete per floor.
If the density of the WTC concrete was 1500 kg/m3 we have 110  290.9  1500 kg
= 48,000,000 kg of concrete flooring per tower

If I'm not mistaken, using these figures the volume is 290.9m3 per floor * 110 floors = 31999m3 per WTC tower.

[Hellbound]

dubfan:

Was it reinforced concrete or regular? (rebar or not)?

[dubfan]

dubfan:

Was it reinforced concrete or regular? (rebar or not)?

Don't know.

Greening says "lightweight concrete", but the context of his analysis is the energy required to pulverize the concrete. I don't think he considered the presence or absence of rebar in his analysis.

Ought to be an easy enough thing to find out though, or maybe on of our WTC construction gurus here might know offhand...

Gravy?

[azazal]

dubfan:

Was it reinforced concrete or regular? (rebar or not)?


AHHHH not rebar again ahhhhhhh :D

I thought the floors had mess for support, looking right now..


Found it.

Floor construction typically consisted of 4 inches of lightweight concrete on 1-1/2-inch, 22-gauge non-composite steel deck

Source: Some CTer's wannabe site (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_ch2.htm)

[Hellbound]

Well, for sake of argument (and to reduce the amount of C-4 needed), let's assume lightweight concrete without rebar (other options are dense concrete or reinforced concrete). Our formula is
P=R3KC
Where P is pounds of TNT, R is the thickness, K is the material factor, and C the tamping factor.
So, let's assume a minimal C-4 needed. We'll use K=.88 for lightweight concrete less than .3 meters thick, C=1.0 assuming charges placed in the center of the floor thickness, and R=2 inches (about .166 feet).

So we get
P=0.1663*0.88*1.0 = 0.004025 lbs. per charge. With C-4's ReF of 1.34, that means 0.003004 lbs. per charge. Not much, but we're asssuming a charge placed every 4 inches (to waste less blast above and below the floor). So, that number is how much C-4 is needed to destroy concrete in a 2 inch radius around the charge. Again, fo rsake of argument, let's assume the radius is cubical, and each of these charges will pulverize 0.0046296 ft3 of concrete.

Now, we have 32,000 cubic meters of concrete, approximately, which gives us 1,130,060 ft3, roughly. Divide that by how much our charges destroy and you get 244,094,522 charges, which equates to 733,260 lbs of C-4, or about 365 tons.

Let's get a bit more reasonable and assume a charge placed every 15 feet in a grid. Our K value now becomes 0.27 for concrete over 2.1 meters. C stays the same, and R is 7.5:
P=7.53*.27*1.0 = 113.90625 lbs of TNT or 85 lbs. of C-4 per charge (rounded down slightly). Each of these charges will take out a 15' by 15' by 4 inch area of flooring (floor is only 4 inches thick), or 75 cubic feet. So, using our figure of 1,130,060 ft3 of concrete, that gives us 15067 charges, or 1,280,695 lbs. of C-4, or 640 tons. As you increse the charge size, the amount required goes up.

Thanks dub, azazal. Sounds like concrete over the steel, so we can effectively ignore the steel. Actually, you could figure that the steel would add to the destructive force in my second scenario (larger charges) by reflecting some of the blast back into the concrete, But it's only going to be a reduction of 30% to 40% at best.

Oh, and just an aside, my figures for Christophera's reinforced concrete core did NOT include cutting the reinforcement, just the concrete.

[MarkyX]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16569875&blogID=138496523&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2676/refused6dz.jpg

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16569875&blogID=138496523&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2676/refused6dz.jpg

He's the stereotypical "cowardly bully". He has no problem standing up and spewing venom and insults as long as his posse is behind him, but he fears going anywhere without his homies.

[ob986s]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16569875&blogID=138496523&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2676/refused6dz.jpg


I guess I can cancel my trip to NYC for 9-11-06, too bad i was looking forward to the debate

[ktesibios]

Thanks Huntsman. I was thinking strictly in terms of cutting steel, since as pretty much everyone save Christophera knows, that's what held the @#$% building up.

Civilian demolition contractors have obvious reasons- economics and safety, to name two off the top of my head, to want to minimize the quantity of explosives set off on a given job, hence the use of things like shaped charges. If you were working on the basis of military practice, those considerations would probably be secondary to achieving the desired destruction, so it seemed worth asking what set of standards you were using in your figuring.

No matter which way you slice it, the absurdity of CTer claims of CD is obvious. And if a layman like myself can see that, they're obvious^2.

[Hellbound]

Thanks Huntsman. I was thinking strictly in terms of cutting steel, since as pretty much everyone save Christophera knows, that's what held the @#$% building up.

Civilian demolition contractors have obvious reasons- economics and safety, to name two off the top of my head, to want to minimize the quantity of explosives set off on a given job, hence the use of things like shaped charges. If you were working on the basis of military practice, those considerations would probably be secondary to achieving the desired destruction, so it seemed worth asking what set of standards you were using in your figuring.

No matter which way you slice it, the absurdity of CTer claims of CD is obvious. And if a layman like myself can see that, they're obvious^2.

Well, even in military shaped charges are preferred, and can be improvised in the field. It's easier to carry C-4, though, and make the shaped charges you need, rather than try to carry a variety of pre-shaped charges, any of which may or may not be useful for whatever you find.

Also, much of my training involves breeching, cratering, or clearing, and you want the wide area effect to blow out your path (for breeching or clearing) or to blow out your crater.

I could give some steel-cutting figures, if you're interested. It'd take a bit more research on my part.

[JamesB]

Well, even in military shaped charges are preferred, and can be improvised in the field. It's easier to carry C-4, though, and make the shaped charges you need, rather than try to carry a variety of pre-shaped charges, any of which may or may not be useful for whatever you find.

Also, much of my training involves breeching, cratering, or clearing, and you want the wide area effect to blow out your path (for breeching or clearing) or to blow out your crater.

I could give some steel-cutting figures, if you're interested. It'd take a bit more research on my part.

But they didn't use C-4, they used that newfangled explosive nanothermate!

[MarkyX]

Just got this in email right now.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=89557162

Best. Profile. Picture. Ever.

[Brainster]

But they didn't use C-4, they used that newfangled explosive nanothermate!

I hear Karl Schwarz is an expert on that stuff.

[Stellafane]

...Every CTer is a pedant at heart. They are the teachers, we are the pupils...

I think that's close, but I would describe it as they want to be the heroes, and our role is to be their adoring public, singing their praises. Everything they do leaves me more and more convinced that CT'ers are by and large incomplete and undeveloped personalities who are dissatisfied with their lot in life and are looking for some outlet to provide them with the veneer of relevance and importance. Role-playing games do it for some, but others need a little more connection to "reality" to fulfill their humdrum, uneventful existence. Basically, a CT is a role-playing game on steroids.

[Regnad Kcin]

Dylan replied

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=16569875&blogID=138496523&MyToken=73414456-6e46-4ff8-b8d9-bf10a8d40f36

There we have it people, right there in Public. Dylan refuses to debate with Mark Roberts.

And an image to spread to other Loosers.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2676/refused6dz.jpgYet, Mr. Avery, wouldn't it be sweet, sweet satisfaction to really stick it to Mr. Roberts, counter all his points, and put him in his place, what with all the evidence at your disposal?

Oh, wait...