Loose Change - Part III

[60hzxtl]

Have you seen the PowerPoint presentation Jones used at the recent LA nutjob-a-thon, oops, I mean, conspiracy convention? I ran into it a few days ago by accident and foolishly didn't save a link, and now I can't hunt it down.

A good portion of the last half of that presentation links 9/11 to Mormon eschatology. I don't know enough about Mormonism to really criticize it, but I'd be very curious to hear what a fellow Mormon thought about it.

I suspect it's about as relevant to doctrinal LDS thought as his "scientific" investigations into 9/11 are to actual science.

If anyone has a link to that PPT file, I'd appreciate it.


Well, you can stir the pot over there.

n.b. (with apologies to the Mormons on this board.)

Point out that: September 11, 1857: John D. Lee, Mormon, (and NOT acting on behalf of the Mormons, any more than Jones is acting on behalf of the Mormons.) enraged over President Buchanan's order to remove Brigham Young as governor of the Utah Territory, led a band of Mormons (not acting on behalf of the Mormons) in a massacre of a California-bound wagon train of 135 (mostly Methodists) in Mountain Meadows, Utah.

[Gravy]

Have you seen the PowerPoint presentation Jones used at the recent LA nutjob-a-thon, oops, I mean, conspiracy convention? If anyone has a link to that PPT file, I'd appreciate it.

Here are links to LA video presentations, but I don't know about the ppt file itself.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7366

[Belz...]

I think it's a little simple minded to call Loosers "terrorist supporters" because they don't even believe in the existence of these terrorists. In the mind of a CT, Arabs and other Muslims are more than happy to be the world's punching bag without ever fighting back; much like the Amish.

Perhaps, but their ACTIONS support the terrorists.

[Year Zero]

Perhaps, but their ACTIONS support the terrorists.


Can you explain this in detail? I have yet to hear a single historical case of how idiotic conspiracy theories have given strategic aid to an insurgency somewhere.

[Belz...]

Can you explain this in detail? I have yet to hear a single historical case of how idiotic conspiracy theories have given strategic aid to an insurgency somewhere.

Didn't say it was a big help or even a noticeable one, but they ARE trying to take the blame AWAY from the terrorists.

[Year Zero]

Didn't say it was a big help or even a noticeable one, but they ARE trying to take the blame AWAY from the terrorists.

But what they are really doing is taking blame away from the actions that cause reactionary terrorism, which is far more destructive to America. They already neutralized Mike Malloy with their Idiocy Ray. Good thing Chomsky isn't fooled by their BS.

[Gravy]

Update. And go to the blog if you want to see Avery & Bermas with the real chucksheen. Ugh. http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/

As for the Google Video situation, it appears some have been taken offline, and some haven't. Your best bet is to just search for it until we get our own version up (which is going to have some mistakes fixed).

If you live on the West Coast, pick up the new issue of Vanity Fair. Screenshots later today hopefully...

posted by dylan avery at 6:52 AM

"Going to have some mistakes fixed?" Will it be a 1-minute video?

[Year Zero]

I guess Sheen's endorsement suggest that he's back on blow.

[dubfan]

Here are links to LA video presentations, but I don't know about the ppt file itself.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7366

Thanks Gravy.

Found it on the S911T website, here (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Media/Jones_ppt/LAJun24_Jones.pdf)

The parts relating to Mormon scripture & doctrine are on pp. 157-164 (of a 190-page PPT file. Yes, his PPT presentation is one hundred ninety pages long).

Sword_of_Truth: any thoughts on Jones' interpretation? To my untrained eye, it looks like he's using the same tools of the trade he uses as a CT: cherry-picking bits of scripture to confirm the conclusions he's already arrived at.

[Year Zero]

Does anyone have a contact email address for Prof. Jones. I am sure I am not the first, but I just wanted to inform him that Thermite does not burn horizontally and is not used in controlled demolitions. That might be something one would want to research first before making an ass out of one's self.

[apathoid]

Does anyone have a contact email address for Prof. Jones. I am sure I am not the first, but I just wanted to inform him that Thermite does not burn horizontally and is not used in controlled demolitions. That might be something one would want to research first before making an ass out of one's self.

stevejones@byu.edu

Good luck getting a reply.

[TjW]

<snippage>
Very true, and real pilots have no problem with Hani Hanjours ability to steer a 757 into an 80 ft tall X 1000 ft wide building. Only the posers seem to have a problem with this(Nila Sagadevan most notably) for some reason.
As a pilot, (though not commercial or ATP), I think I know why. PC flight sims are a lot harder to fly than a real airplane. In a real airplane, you have many more cues than in a flight sim. You can turn your head, you feel accelerations in all three axes... It's just easier.

[Mancman]

Update. And go to the blog if you want to see Avery & Bermas with the real chucksheen. Ugh. http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/

I think that is worthy of a caption competition.

[Year Zero]

Thanks, here is my open letter to him:

Hello Dr. Jones,

I have read your claims about Thermite being used in the WTC. They have raised some questions, as I became familiar with thermite and its effects in the army. Here is my list of questions.

1. Do you know what Thermite is?

2. Do you know what it does?

3. Were you aware that Thermite is not used in building demolitions?

4. Were you aware that you cannot use Thermite for "controlled" demolition because it cannot be timed and controlled like linear charges?

5. Have you taken the time to suggest your Thermite theory to a qualified expert in demolitions?

6. If yes, what was his/her response?

Thank you.

JPS

[sophia8]

I think that is worthy of a caption competition.
How about:
1) "I'm coming down faster than free-fall, dudes! Need a pick-up!"
2) "Heeyyy babe... My good buddies here are like, the Twin Towers, and I'm, like WTC7. So - PULL ME!! Hnrkkk hnrkkkk... ! Know what I mean babe...? Hey, where ya goin', babe...?"

[apathoid]

As a pilot, (though not commercial or ATP), I think I know why. PC flight sims are a lot harder to fly than a real airplane. In a real airplane, you have many more cues than in a flight sim. You can turn your head, you feel accelerations in all three axes... It's just easier.

I suspect your're right. I had the priveledge of flying a 767 full motion simulator and I was quite suprised at how easy takeoff and especially landing was(okay I cheated by using autothrottle on approach!). I think most GA pilots and airline mechanics could've easily pulled off any one of the attack runs.

[Year Zero]

How about:
1) "I'm coming down faster than free-fall, dudes! Need a pick-up!"
2) "Heeyyy babe... My good buddies here are like, the Twin Towers, and I'm, like WTC7. So - PULL ME!! Hnrkkk hnrkkkk... ! Know what I mean babe...? Hey, where ya goin', babe...?"


Pick up lines to use at the 9-11 conspiracy conventions:

"Hey babe, want to check out my Northwoods?

"Girl I am going to pull a new Pearl Harbor on you tonight"

"I've got a missile, or a truckbomb, or an unmanned drone, or an A3 skywarrior for your Pentagon."

"Girl you're hotter than THERMITE! I'm FREE-FALLING for you"

Remember that with conspiracy chicks, you can get them drunk, sneak out in the morning, and they'll just believe that they were drugged by the government agents because they were "getting too close to the truth".

[negativ]

Can a jet fuel / hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure?

Check out this rigorously scientific experiment proving it can't:

tinyurl.com/no9sl

:cool:

Note: It's a LOT easier to get banned over there than at the Loosers' forum...

[Year Zero]

Jones' retarded reply:





Jasa,

The answers to nearly all your questions are contained in my peer-reviewed and
published paper, available here:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

In particular, I discuss the use of superthermite which uses nanoaluminum and is
EXPLOSIVE so that it CAN be controlled and timed with precision. Yes, I have
discussed the matter with two qualified experts. One had not even heard of
thermite and would not comment. The other knew a great deal about thermite and
said that it would indeed work for demolition.

Please read my paper before asking such questions, that is the reasonable thing
to do.

And note that while RDX, HMX, etc. have taggants, thermite does not.

Steven Jones

[chipmunk stew]

Can a jet fuel / hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure?

Check out this rigorously scientific experiment proving it can't:

tinyurl.com/no9sl

:cool:

Note: It's a LOT easier to get banned over there than at the Loosers' forum...:dl:

[CptColumbo]

Can a jet fuel / hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure?

Check out this rigorously scientific experiment proving it can't:

tinyurl.com/no9sl

:cool:

Note: It's a LOT easier to get banned over there than at the Loosers' forum...

How about a test that takes into account structural damage caused by a large commercial jet, the potential energy of the building, carpet burning, office furniture burning, any flamable material commonly found in an office building (cleaning supplies like paint thinner or lighter fluid) burning, the seats and carpet from the plane burning, people burning, and the jet fuel burning?

You can't take just one or two elements of the collapse of the WTC. You have to take into account all the variables, especially since this is an unpresidented event.

[twinstead]

How about a test that takes into account structural damage caused by a large commercial jet, the potential energy of the building, carpet burning, office furniture burning, any flamable material commonly found in an office building (cleaning supplies like paint thinner or lighter fluid) burning, the seats and carpet from the plane burning, people burning, and the jet fuel burning?

You can't take just one or two elements of the collapse of the WTC. You have to take into account all the variables, especially since this is an unpresidented event.

Yea, he at least should have blasted a hole through the chicken wire with a shotgun or something to simulate the airliner crashes.

It's funny to me that in the discussion he uses the time-honored CT argument that he is aware the experiment is not perfect, but he is just asking questions and maybe it will lead to better experiments in the future.

Weird folks these 911 'truthers'. Weird folks.

[Stellafane]

I think that is worthy of a caption competition.

So Chuck...what's it like to...you know, "be" with a real woman???

[MikeW]

real pilots have no problem with Hani Hanjours ability to steer a 757 into an 80 ft tall X 1000 ft wide building. Only the posers seem to have a problem with this(Nila Sagadevan most notably) for some reason.
On that topic, I've a new contribution out today from Giulio Bernacchia, basically saying that Hanjour didn't need Top Gun-type skills to do what he did. Bernacchia's qualifications:
I’ve been a pilot for the past 27 years, first in the Italian Air Force, and then as a check Captain for an airline.

I have a good experience as a simulator instructor and examiner, (as a matter of fact one of my jobs was to train people with very basic experience…), and I flew NATO AWACS planes as an Aircraft Commander (air refueling qualified) and maritime patrol airplanes very low over water.

So, maybe immodestly, I think I can enter the 9-11 arena...
His thoughts are at the top of the http://www.911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html page, if you're interested. (Apologies for plugging my own site, but I think this guy is qualified enough for it to be relevant.)

[Belz...]

How about a test that takes into account structural damage caused by a large commercial jet, the potential energy of the building, carpet burning, office furniture burning, any flamable material commonly found in an office building (cleaning supplies like paint thinner or lighter fluid) burning, the seats and carpet from the plane burning, people burning, and the jet fuel burning?

You can't take just one or two elements of the collapse of the WTC. You have to take into account all the variables, especially since this is an unpresidented event.

Not to forget the huge scale difference.

[realitybites]

Quick aside back to JohnDoe.

His LC profile indicates that, since joining the forum on May 18th, he's averaged about 30 posts per day. Assuming the guy sleeps a regular 8 hours every night, that comes out to about 2 posts per hour.

Every day.

Since mid-May.

.... How's that possible?

edit: For a commercial pilot I mean.
edit#2: I'm sure it's quite easy for someone who doesn't get out much.
edit#3: And how quickly to hemorroids develop if one's sitting in front of the computer that much.

[kookbreaker]

Quick aside back to JohnDoe.

His LC profile indicates that, since joining the forum on May 18th, he's averaged about 30 posts per day. Assuming the guy sleeps a regular 8 hours every night, that comes out to about 2 posts per hour.

Every day.

Since mid-May.

.... How's that possible?

edit: For a commercial pilot I mean.
edit#2: I'm sure it's quite easy for someone who doesn't get out much.

Well, MS Flight Simulator does have a pause key, yes?

[DavidJames]

Quick aside back to JohnDoe.

His LC profile indicates that, since joining the forum on May 18th, he's averaged about 30 posts per day. Assuming the guy sleeps a regular 8 hours every night, that comes out to about 2 posts per hour.

Every day.

Since mid-May.

.... How's that possible?

edit: For a commercial pilot I mean.
edit#2: I'm sure it's quite easy for someone who doesn't get out much.
edit#3: And how quickly to hemorroids develop if one's sitting in front of the computer that much.Actually in the past few days he's up over 100 (easily). I pointed that out and the resulting back and forth between him, jenabell and myself illustrated quite clearly their poor research and lack of critical thinking.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7553&st=60

The fun begins on page 3 about 1/2 way down (I used the same name there).

[apathoid]

On that topic, I've a new contribution out today from Giulio Bernacchia, basically saying that Hanjour didn't need Top Gun-type skills to do what he did. Bernacchia's qualifications:

Outstanding! Its about time someone who actually flies for a living weighed in on the matter...


Most people who have been exposed only to the official storyline have never been on the flight deck of an airliner at altitude and looked at the outside world; if they had, they would realize the absurdity of this kind of reasoning.


Maybe that’s what happened to mr. Sagadevan: he was admitted into a flight
deck of an airliner in flight, looked at the outside world, and suddenly had
the inspiration: he wrote his article

I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Mr. Sagadevan is a fraud...

Thanks for the link Mike and great site!

[Belz...]

Actually in the past few days he's up over 100 (easily). I pointed that out and the resulting back and forth between him, jenabell and myself illustrated quite clearly their poor research and lack of critical thinking.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7553&st=60

The fun begins on page 3 about 1/2 way down (I used the same name there).

This was nice:

I'm trying to show the difference between someone who does research and someone who just makes stuff up. It doesn't take long to do research. But you took the easy way out, you looked at my claim and clicked on a link and responded. You didn't correctly read my claim. You didn't check to see if your data matched up with the claim. You didn't get your hands dirty looking at the actual data. Effectively, you looked at the picture and accepted what you saw. That's the difference John. CTers take the easy way out and stop looking when they find the answer they want.

I have a job which requires me to provide supporting documentation for every claim I make. I can't produce a presentation to executives without doing the due diligence to substantiate my words. Words mean something John.

[Belz...]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7553&st=60

The fun begins on page 3 about 1/2 way down (I used the same name there).

And when you finally teach them how to use their forum properly, they answer:

I dont know whether to feel sorry for this guy.. or be flattered...lol

Who's got a hive mentality, now ?

[60hzxtl]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7656

With any luck he will meet up with Dylan and company early in the day
(9/11/2006) , as they did last year. That way, they'll be in the hoosegow, waiting for a desk appearance ticket, or getting stitches in the same ER.

Then the memorial for 9/11 will proceed with dignity.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Thanks Gravy.

Found it on the S911T website, here (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Media/Jones_ppt/LAJun24_Jones.pdf)

The parts relating to Mormon scripture & doctrine are on pp. 157-164 (of a 190-page PPT file. Yes, his PPT presentation is one hundred ninety pages long).

Sword_of_Truth: any thoughts on Jones' interpretation? To my untrained eye, it looks like he's using the same tools of the trade he uses as a CT: cherry-picking bits of scripture to confirm the conclusions he's already arrived at.

Well for one thing, this is an example of Jones talking up his mormonism. My guess is that this was originally presented to a majority mormon audience.

The "secret combination" stuff is a very real part of mormon doctrine. Like most of christianity we believe that the world is going to go down the crapper just before Jesus arrives to clean the mess up. This includes global takeover attempts by one or more factions that are up to no good. Generally, mormons don't dwell on this aspect of our faith with the intensity that the protestants do with things like the "Left Behind" videos and books.

Jones's take on the "secret combinations" seems unusual for members of our faith.

Ezra Taft Benson (Secretary of Agriculture under Eisenhower before becoming president of the church) stated that this secret combination prophesied in the scriptures was international communism. He was joined in this assesment and in condemnation of the United Nations by fellow high-ranking mormon, J. Rueben Clark (who also served as Undersecretary of State and US Ambassador to Mexico). Mormon endtime prophecies also speak of a final war against Isreal in wich she will have few if any friends or allies much like the rest of christianity. These days, the leaders of the church are reluctant to identify who and what this secret combination.

Whacky conspiracy theories in the US (and to a lesser extent, Canada) have traditionally come from the right. 9-11 conspiracism is different in that it's probably the first equal opportunity looney bin. The actual card carrying communists, few of them there may be, are in full support of the 9-11 theories. Furthermore the 9-11 "truth" movement is the most anti-isreal of the conspiracy nuts and probably would have been without the involvement of the stormfront.org pinheads. According to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/ the only people who have reviewed and passed Jones's original paper is a marxist website.

This is mostly circumstantial and I can't really know what's going on inside Jones's head. But turning against the most anti-UN administration in recent memory, joining up with the commies and the anti-semites just goes totally against the grain for someone who claims to be a conservative mormon.

I have no evidence, just my gut instinct and personal knowledge of mormon culture. So take it all with a grain of salt.

[rikzilla]

Well for one thing, this is an example of Jones talking up his mormonism. My guess is that this was originally presented to a majority mormon audience.

The "secret combination" stuff is a very real part of mormon doctrine. Like most of christianity we believe that the world is going to go down the crapper just before Jesus arrives to clean the mess up. This includes global takeover attempts by one or more factions that are up to no good. Generally, mormons don't dwell on this aspect of our faith with the intensity that the protestants do with things like the "Left Behind" videos and books.

Jones's take on the "secret combinations" seems unusual for members of our faith.

Ezra Taft Benson (Secretary of Agriculture under Eisenhower before becoming president of the church) stated that this secret combination prophesied in the scriptures was international communism. He was joined in this assesment and in condemnation of the United Nations by fellow high-ranking mormon, J. Rueben Clark (who also served as Undersecretary of State and US Ambassador to Mexico). Mormon endtime prophecies also speak of a final war against Isreal in wich she will have few if any friends or allies much like the rest of christianity. These days, the leaders of the church are reluctant to identify who and what this secret combination.

Whacky conspiracy theories in the US (and to a lesser extent, Canada) have traditionally come from the right. 9-11 conspiracism is different in that it's probably the first equal opportunity looney bin. The actual card carrying communists, few of them there may be, are in full support of the 9-11 theories. Furthermore the 9-11 "truth" movement is the most anti-isreal of the conspiracy nuts and probably would have been without the involvement of the stormfront.org pinheads. According to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/ the only people who have reviewed and passed Jones's original paper is a marxist website.

This is mostly circumstantial and I can't really know what's going on inside Jones's head. But turning against the most anti-UN administration in recent memory, joining up with the commies and the anti-semites just goes totally against the grain for someone who claims to be a conservative mormon.

I have no evidence, just my gut instinct and personal knowledge of mormon culture. So take it all with a grain of salt.


In my own experience of "Mormon culture" I'd have to say I'm not surprised that being a part of this cult may have initially attracted Jones to identify with the CT cult.

I'm very sorry SOT if I offend you by refering to the Mormons as a cult but it is above all an accurate description. You, OTOH, I find to be a rational and intelligent person.

Cults have been interpreting an "end time prophecy" of some sort for the last 2,000 years if not longer. Other than the fact that I'm sure there will actually be an "end time" for the human race; the "prophecies" continue to bloom and fade like weeds without ever coming close to being true.

Anyway, sorry for the derail...but to me myths are myths...CT or religion...it's all the same to me.

-z

[bob_kark]

Jones' retarded reply:





Jasa,

The answers to nearly all your questions are contained in my peer-reviewed and
published paper, available here:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

In particular, I discuss the use of superthermite which uses nanoaluminum and is
EXPLOSIVE so that it CAN be controlled and timed with precision. Yes, I have
discussed the matter with two qualified experts. One had not even heard of
thermite and would not comment. The other knew a great deal about thermite and
said that it would indeed work for demolition.

Please read my paper before asking such questions, that is the reasonable thing
to do.

And note that while RDX, HMX, etc. have taggants, thermite does not.

Steven Jones

I found a couple of links for "Super Thermite" which do a fairly good job explaining the effectiveness of the nanometric aluminum powder used:

http://www.intdetsymp.org/detsymp2002/PaperSubmit/FinalManuscript/pdf/Brousseau-193.pdf

http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=2642&DID=60122&DOC=FILE.PDF

The important point here being that the only difference between thermite and "SOOOOOOOUPER thermite" is the inclusion of nanometric aluminum powder. Unfortunately, this isn't magical "EXPLOSIVE" nanometric aluminum powder, just regluar old (not really that old) nanometric aluminum powder. It effectively increases the burn rate, but does not bestow new "EXPLOSIVE" properties to the thermite.

[Brainster]

Just when you thought Graydon Carter (http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/07/hillary-duff-and-9-11-conspiracies_07.html) couldn't sink any lower....

Nothing in the online edition yet.

[dubfan]

Just when you thought Graydon Carter (http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/07/hillary-duff-and-9-11-conspiracies_07.html) couldn't sink any lower....

Nothing in the online edition yet.

WHAT THE ****?

VANITY FAIR?

This country has lost its collective mind.

[60hzxtl]

Just when you thought Graydon Carter (http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/07/hillary-duff-and-9-11-conspiracies_07.html) couldn't sink any lower....

Nothing in the online edition yet.


Look at it as an opportunity!

I know this guy Gravy, who wrote a debunking, and caught the kids with their mouths open.

Send Vanity Fair to Gravy's work.

Like they say about tracer bullets - they work both ways.

[dubfan]

And once again we see that the cult of Dylan Avery's celebrity is louder than any attempt to put any of the substance of the conspiracy theory in front a community of structural engineers or 757 pilots.

Hey Dylan! How's that presentation to the ASCE coming along?

[scissorhands]

Does anyone have a current email address that Dylan uses regularly?
Having seen his heartfelt post on his blog concerning the 7/7 attacks in London I would like to send a message to him.
Obviously it would be in the best possible taste.

[Brainster]

Just when you thought Graydon Carter (http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/07/hillary-duff-and-9-11-conspiracies_07.html) couldn't sink any lower....

Nothing in the online edition yet.

You can read it by clicking twice (http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/07/extra-extra.html) on the photos here. Special added attraction: Picture of Dylan's girlfriend included! She turns out to be a Loose Change groupie.

Woooooot! It mentions Screw Loose Change!

[rikzilla]

And once again we see that the cult of Dylan Avery's celebrity is louder than any attempt to put any of the substance of the conspiracy theory in front a community of structural engineers or 757 pilots.

Hey Dylan! How's that presentation to the ASCE coming along?

Fear not!

The higher Master Dylan's profile the harder he'll be smacked down and the further he'll fall. If he is loath now to seek out a friendly structural engineer, perhaps soon enough a Vanity Fair subscribing structural engineer may decide to seek him out?? Maybe even a bunch of them?

Were I Dylan I'd be quite fearful that my burgeoning fame could just as easily turn to infamy.

-z

[Pardalis]

Does anyone have a current email address that Dylan uses regularly?
Having seen his heartfelt post on his blog concerning the 7/7 attacks in London I would like to send a message to him.
Obviously it would be in the best possible taste.

I don't even want to know what he said, I'm afraid my blood pressure will go off the roof (and I'm only 28).

[c0rbin]

The last page of the article calls out a quote from his frakking MySpace page.

Since when does that site lend credit to anything?!? It's like footnoting a reststop men's room on I-45.

[60hzxtl]

From the article:

"and now Avery, a South Park -watching video game-writing, self described 'nerd'

He thinks this is complementary.

Vanity fair has put the Chertoff allegation in there without checking it. "Benjamin Chertoff is a cousin. . . could not be reached for comment."

Oh! The opportunities!

Vanity Fair reporter takes dictation! Does not check facts! Whhhheeeeee!


And wait until the South Park producers get a wiff of blood in the water!

[scissorhands]

Its not what he said, its what he didnt say and the pile of garbage of a video that he then linked to.
His lack of respect for the dead and the families involved, seems to have no bounds.
But then I suppose I knew that anyway.

[60hzxtl]

Its not what he said, its what he didnt say and the pile of garbage of a video that he then linked to.
His lack of respect for the dead and the families involved, seems to have no bounds.
But then I suppose I knew that anyway.


Being drunk with power will give you quite a hangover when you are brought to sobriety by responsibility.

Ol' Dylan asks on his website if anyone has any thoughts about why his video is off Google.

Psssst Dylan, that's the first sign that they have been told that they are distributing copyrighted material. The kind of material you don't own.

You want to know the second sign?


Bwaaaahaaaahaaahaa!

[DavidJames]

My new favorite thread at loose bowels.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7287

Clearly the amateur videos of the 2nd plane hitting the tower are faked :D

[WildCat]

Vanity fair has put the Chertoff allegation in there without checking it. "Benjamin Chertoff is a cousin. . . could not be reached for comment."

Oh! The opportunities!

Vanity Fair reporter takes dictation! Does not check facts! Whhhheeeeee!
Within hours every CT site will be claiming that Vanity Fair has corroborated Ben Chertoff/Michael Chertoff are cousins "fact".
And wait until the South Park producers get a wiff of blood in the water!
This is exactly the kind of thing they love to skewer, oh man wouldn't it be great to see a SP episode tearing Dylan a new sphincter... :D

[WildCat]

You want to know the second sign?
Subpoena?

[60hzxtl]

Subpoena?


At least another "cease and desist" like they got from the Naudet's lawyers.

Funny how that thread of the Troooth is gone.

Funny how the Gypsy smutty pictures thread at the toooothers is gone.

Funny place the Looser's forum.

Funny ideas about the truth.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

In my own experience of "Mormon culture" I'd have to say I'm not surprised that being a part of this cult may have initially attracted Jones to identify with the CT cult.

I'm very sorry SOT if I offend you by refering to the Mormons as a cult but it is above all an accurate description. You, OTOH, I find to be a rational and intelligent person.

Cults have been interpreting an "end time prophecy" of some sort for the last 2,000 years if not longer. Other than the fact that I'm sure there will actually be an "end time" for the human race; the "prophecies" continue to bloom and fade like weeds without ever coming close to being true.

Anyway, sorry for the derail...but to me myths are myths...CT or religion...it's all the same to me.

-z

I disagree vehemently with the description of mormonism as a cult and would appreciate it if you did not describe it as such.

I know of very few "cults" that endow major universities (where at least the structural engineering professors and most of the physics professors are sane) or produce Presidential cabinet members and National Security Advisors (Brent Sowcroft, Bush 41) or general officers with access to nuclear weapons (General Robert C. Oaks USAF, General Bruce Carlson USAF).

There are as many rational and intelligent people as well as silly, frooty and outright lunatics among us as you'll find in any other faith.

Aside from all this, it has been my experience that most of the "cult checklists" you'll find floating around the web can be bent and twisted to fit any major religion.

EDIT: None of this is to say that people who are naturally prone to cult manipulation can't find thier way into our (or any other faith) and follow it as though they had been sucked into a cult. But I believe that professor Jones behavior condemns only himself. Not the rest of us.

"There is no cause so noble that it will not attract its share of fuggheads. And invariably, it's the fuggheads that get most of the publicity."
-Larry Niven

[Mr. Skinny]

(snip)
Aside from all this, it has been my experience that most of the "cult checklists" you'll find floating around the web can be bent and twisted to fit any major religion.
Knowing rickzilla for as long as I have around here, I suspect he'd call most organized religions a cult (correct me if I'm wrong rik).

I was brought up in the Roman Catholic "cult", if it makes you feel any better, SOT. I don't think rik was singling out Mormons.

[Mancman]

My new favorite thread at loose bowels.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7287

Clearly the amateur videos of the 2nd plane hitting the tower are faked :D

Oh good god.

Hmmm well this is easy enough:

The distance between Battery Park and Ground Zero is ~3 miles. The plane is seen for ~3 seconds.

A mile per second = 3600mph. Even if you figure it only travelled half that distance, it still works out to 1800mph or mach 2.5.



Maybe the planes are flying too fast?

Damn.....

I've never been to NYC in my life but I know for a fact that Battery Park is well under 3 miles from the WTC.
It seems a complete lack of how perspective works is innate for every no planer. My head is going through my keyboard if I read another second of that thread.

[Pardalis]

There's another nut coming our way...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1753238#post1753238

[mrfreeze]

Try growing up as an altar boy and then finding out that 2 priests in a row were pedophiles later charged with touching children. Apparently I wasn't pretty enough for a priest. :(

Back on topic though, the guy who threatened Roxdog, is that Sentinel? Or some other insane angry person who wound up in their movie?

[bob_kark]

I disagree vehemently with the description of mormonism as a cult and would appreciate it if you did not describe it as such....

One of my best friends in high school was a Morman. To this day he's one of the most sincere and caring people I've ever known. While I certainly wouldn't classify the Morman faith as a cult, I can see why other's may have that opinion due to the many fringe movements that could only be discribed as cults. They give the LDS a bad name.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

There's another nut coming our way...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1753238#post1753238

Ewing = huge no-plane freak from the United 93 movie forum.

Expect him to start spamming links to his "Planehugger Therapy FAQ" every other post.

[Pardalis]

Ewing = huge no-plane freak from the United 93 movie forum.

Expect him to start spamming links to his "Planehugger Therapy FAQ" every other post.

Can't wait.:)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I can see why other's may have that opinion due to the many fringe movements that could only be discribed as cults. They give the LDS a bad name.

Fringe nuts will do that to any religion.

Unless fringe nuttism IS the religion (like the loose change crowd). ;)

[steve s]

Oh good god.

I've never been to NYC in my life but I know for a fact that Battery Park is well under 3 miles from the WTC.


3 Miles!!!! He isn't even remotely close to being right. The troof is that it's less than half a mile. He must have got his research skills from "Hey, man" Dylan. I'm going to post this over at LC.

Map of Lower Manhattan (http://www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=983)

Steve S.

[Brainster]

Oh good god.



I've never been to NYC in my life but I know for a fact that Battery Park is well under 3 miles from the WTC.
It seems a complete lack of how perspective works is innate for every no planer. My head is going through my keyboard if I read another second of that thread.

Considering that Killtown has been claiming that the planes were flying too slow, this should cause his brain to undergo controlled demolition.

[Mancman]

Considering that Killtown has been claiming that the planes were flying too slow, this should cause his brain to undergo controlled demolition.

But the squibs shooting from his ears will be a sure sign of a conspiracy, as his head appears to be hollow.

[bob_kark]

Fringe nuts will do that to any religion.

Unless fringe nuttism IS the religion (like the loose change crowd). ;)
No doubt. I believe the MSM just finds the "fringies" sexier. Opus Dei anyone?

[bob_kark]

I see SBrown's suspension has been lifted. I hope I'm here to see the chaos before its erased again.

[60hzxtl]

Back on topic though, the guy who threatened Roxdog, is that Sentinel? Or some other insane angry person who wound up in their movie?


That would be "Sentinel"

Much as I hate to bring up his handle. . .

[MarkyX]

Oh good god.



I've never been to NYC in my life but I know for a fact that Battery Park is well under 3 miles from the WTC.
It seems a complete lack of how perspective works is innate for every no planer. My head is going through my keyboard if I read another second of that thread.

I hope it isn't an expensive wireless logitech keyboard.

[MarkyX]

That would be "Sentinel"

Much as I hate to bring up his handle. . .

To be honest, I hope it does happen. I can picture a new reality series on this.

P.S I kid I kid, don't sue!

[steve s]

3 Miles!!!! He isn't even remotely close to being right. The troof is that it's less than half a mile. He must have got his research skills from "Hey, man" Dylan. I'm going to post this over at LC.

Map of Lower Manhattan (http://www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=983)

Steve S.

At least Broodlinger was man enough to admit his mistake. A rare mea culpa in Looserworld.

Steve S.

[SBrown]

I see SBrown's suspension has been lifted. I hope I'm here to see the chaos before its erased again.

Nope they perma banned me :boxedin:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Nope they perma banned me :boxedin:

Morning, Jennybelle. :)

[SBrown]

Morning, Jennybelle. :)
Nope gots me alls wrong.......it's not morning here.

This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between posts. Please try again in 11 seconds.

dammnt

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Nope gots me alls wrong.......it's not morning here.

dammnt

I'm from Canada. We're on metric time up here. Our clock goes to 10:00 and then restarts.

[SBrown]

I'm from Canada. We're on metric time up here. Our clock goes to 10:00 and then restarts.

Really? That almost got me. Interesting joke however.

[Brainster]

Ewing = huge no-plane freak from the United 93 movie forum.

Expect him to start spamming links to his "Planehugger Therapy FAQ" every other post.

Is it me, or is the no-planes thing seeming to catch on with the CT crowd? There's certainly a lot of discussion of it over at the Looser Alternative Theories board. This fits with my thought that Conspiracy Theories are like sharks; they have to keep moving or they die. So we have the pods which are hot for a year or two, then we have the no-plane at the Pentagon, and now we're getting no planes anywhere. What's next--the no buildings theory?

[Stellafane]

Really? That almost got me. Interesting joke however.

Ah SBrown, already spamming feverishly in a mindlessly obvious attempt to get yourself banned. Is the level of self-respect in LC-land really so low that this passes off as an impressive feat?

But before you go, I wonder if you've had time to consider the question I've asked...oh, I've lost count how many times now: What are you doing this? What is it you hope to accomplish here? And don't give me that "because I can" line, because even you must realize that's a non-answer (unless you equally post in every other publically available Internet forum in the world).

[SBrown]

Ah SBrown, already spamming feverishly in a mindlessly obvious attempt to get yourself banned. Is the level of self-respect in LC-land really so low that this passes off as an impressive feat?

But before you go, I wonder if you've had time to consider the question I've asked...oh, I've lost count how many times now: What are you doing this? What is it you hope to accomplish here? And don't give me that "because I can" line, because even you must realize that's a non-answer (unless you equally post in every other publically available Internet forum in the world).

No I answered it you just have a bad memory.

** Well I have tickets to a baseball game.......see you all later guys, don't worry I will be back.

[Stellafane]

Is it me, or is the no-planes thing seeming to catch on with the CT crowd? There's certainly a lot of discussion of it over at the Looser Alternative Theories board. This fits with my thought that Conspiracy Theories are like sharks; they have to keep moving or they die. So we have the pods which are hot for a year or two, then we have the no-plane at the Pentagon, and now we're getting no planes anywhere. What's next--the no buildings theory?

You know, why didn't they stop with a "Bush knew it, but let it happen anyway" stance? I wouldn't have bought it, but at least it doesn't so obviously fly into the face of reality (every bit as much as claiming the sky is orange and the earth is flat). What's next, that the Twin Towers never existed? That's every bit as realistic as the no-planes theory.

Stupidity + paranoia + immaturity = one Godawful mix...

[Stellafane]

No I answered it you just have a bad memory.

No you didn't, or at least not in any way a normal person could decipher. But let's assume you did -- please refresh my faulty memory by repeating it, or just provide a link.

[geni]

Is it me, or is the no-planes thing seeming to catch on with the CT crowd? There's certainly a lot of discussion of it over at the Looser Alternative Theories board. This fits with my thought that Conspiracy Theories are like sharks; they have to keep moving or they die. So we have the pods which are hot for a year or two, then we have the no-plane at the Pentagon, and now we're getting no planes anywhere. What's next--the no buildings theory?

Aliens have been out of fashion for a while so they might be due for a return.

[Pardalis]

Stupidity + paranoia + immaturity = one Godawful mix...

AKA "a cult"

[MarkyX]

From here

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660&st=60


Now, that's a conflict of interest in a big way and we should rightfully discount EVERY FBI quotations and source. What are we left with? Nada.


And from my cult article


The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.


Yeaaaah...

[CptColumbo]

From the article:
Vanity fair has put the Chertoff allegation in there without checking it. "Benjamin Chertoff is a cousin. . . could not be reached for comment."

I sent an e-mail to Ben Chertoff, just in case he missed it.

[Gravy]

I'll be sending a letter to the editor of Vanity Fair with some criticisms, and a proposition to do a story about the truth behind the "Truth Movement" for their September issue.

I'm doing an interview next week with a guy who's making a documentary about 9/11 conspiracy theorists. He'll be talking to the head Loosers also.

A local college professor is trying to set up a forum discussion/debate between me and the LC crew for September, but I don't think there's any way they'd go for it. C'mon, Avery, what are you afraid of?

Tomorrow I'll be out at Ground Zero, giving some zeros a bit of grounding.

Three days in a row, I've received "end time" emails. Here's an excerpt from a long email sent by a guy who didn't like the fact that I wrote my LC Viewer Guide, although he hasn't read it. What's going on out there?

May you be found to be sincere and truly interested in finding truth, if not, I leave this as a testimony against you: know that I know there is a God of Heaven who loves his Children, and he will only tolerate so much of the innocence of the rising generation to be squandered, only so much of freedom to be destroyed, only so much of innocent blood spilt which cries from the ground for vengeance upon the heads of those secret works of darkenss which has spilt that blood before his divinity must answer with severe judgements. May you be on the right side in the days and years ahead, and to be on the right side is to be on the side of truth, if not, be prepared to watch your civilization wrecked to pieces, you will know weeping, mourning, lamentation, burning, and sorrow that only God in righteous judgement can turn out upon the wicked who uphold corruption, who love lies, who support and build up secret works of darkness and murder, evil works which will all be destroyed in due time.
Okey dokey.

[karim]

So we have the pods which are hot for a year or two, then we have the no-plane at the Pentagon, and now we're getting no planes anywhere. What's next--the no buildings theory?


The next hip thing could be the "no-conspiracy theory". There's an angle they have yet to consider.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

3 Miles!!!! He isn't even remotely close to being right. The troof is that it's less than half a mile. He must have got his research skills from "Hey, man" Dylan. I'm going to post this over at LC.

Map of Lower Manhattan (http://www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=983)

Steve S.

0.7 miles driven, according to google maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.310143,82.441406&saddr=Battery+Park,+New+York,+NY+10004+%4040.70258 0,-74.014130&daddr=2+World+Trade+Ctr,+New+York,+New+York&ie=UTF8&om=1

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Could someone please remind the black hole of stupid (aka "JohndoeX") in this thread at the LC looney bin:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7693

...that less than an hour after those engine parts landed in the street, everything got covered by a good 4 inches of dust, much of wich was turned to sludges from firemans hoses thus covering up any damage to the road and sidewalk surface?

NO deductive reasoning ability at all from these people. :p

[Abbyas]

Tomorrow I'll be out at Ground Zero, giving some zeros a bit of grounding.

Good luck. Have fun. Make lots of noise. What tends to happen for me (all of three times I've been down there) is that after a while I get cornered by two to five of them. That's fine, but those that aren't decided, or are also unhappy by them, tend not to hear my information because I'm stuck talking to these few people.

Raise your voice. You know you've got great stuff, let everyone hear it.

[Pardalis]

Good luck. Have fun. Make lots of noise.

Figuratively speaking of course... It is a memorial and a graveyard. ;)

[Abbyas]

Figuratively speaking of course... It is a memorial and a graveyard.

Absolutely true. I didn't mean to be disrespectful and apologize if it sounded that way.

I meant, um, reverant fun. But believe me, these CTers are loud. And sing the worst folk songs.

[Pardalis]

Absolutely true. I didn't mean to be disrespectful and apologize if it sounded that way.

Of course. I was just teasing :)

[Gravy]

I meant, um, reverant fun. But believe me, these CTers are loud. And sing the worst folk songs.
They haven't heard my repertoire of CT Shanties!

[steve s]

0.7 miles driven, according to google maps:


The guy originally intended it "as-the-plane-flies." He estimated it's speed at 3600 mph based on the 3 mile figure. But when I pointed out the correct distance, he admitted his mistake. (Since the true distance is less than 1/6th of 3 miles, the actual speed should be less than 1/6th his estimate of 3600 mph. Or less than 600 mph, a reasonable speed for a jet at full throttle.)

Steve S.

[Abbyas]

They haven't heard my repertoire of CT Shanties!

Oohhhhh, the government isn't to blame.
CTers are lame, for the following 281 reasooons.
Everybody now!


Also, they sometimes show up late. Last week I went down at 12:15 and the little poops didn't show up until after one.

[steve s]

I've received "end time" emails. Here's an excerpt from a long email sent by a guy who didn't like the fact that I wrote my LC Viewer Guide, although he hasn't read it. What's going on out there?


Assuming he's a christian, you'd think he'd be eager to blame the muslims for the attacks, rather than god-fearing GWB.

Steve S.

[brodski]

Oohhhhh, the government isn't to blame.
CTers are lame, for the following 281 reasooons.
Everybody now!


Also, they sometimes show up late. Last week I went down at 12:15 and the little poops didn't show up until after one.

Ohhh,

What shall we do with the "loose change" makers
What shall we do with the "loose change" makers
What shall we do with the "loose change" makers
Early in the morning

rip their myths to peices, with facts and logic
rip their myths to peices, with facts and logic
rip their myths to peices, with facts and logic
early in the morning



:p

[60hzxtl]

Also, they sometimes show up late. Last week I went down at 12:15 and the little poops didn't show up until after one.

Maybe because they operate at the "speed of gravity".

While "It is a memorial and a graveyard" it is also a construction site, and sadly since late Nov. of 2001, a tourist gawking point. I was repulsed and disgusted when the City built a "viewing ramp" on Fulton Street, so the goobers could gawk, and go see what wasn't there.

[Gravy]

Maybe because they operate at the "speed of gravity".

While "It is a memorial and a graveyard" it is also a construction site, and sadly since late Nov. of 2001, a tourist gawking point. I was repulsed and disgusted when the City built a "viewing ramp" on Fulton Street, so the goobers could gawk, and go see what wasn't there.
I respect your feelings about Ground Zero gawkers, but I don't feel the same way. The World Trade Center site is one of the most important places in history, and people are understandably curious about it. I'm in the tourism business, and in my experience Ground Zero is by far the most important thing that people new to New York want to see. I can't speak for all of them, but many people tell me that it's important for them to make some sort of physical connection to the events of 9/11. Also, most of them don't know about the memorial exhibit at St. Paul's across the street, and that's always a powerful experience.

That said, I've decided not to go there today, but to stay in and work on other 9/11 stuff. Projects are piling up! I do think it's important, as a matter of principle, to counter the ignorance being dished out at Ground Zero, but I don't think they're gaining a lot of converts there.

If anyone is interested in picking up some anti-CT "shifts" at G.Z. on occasional Saturdays, let me know. My technique is to simply hand my flyer with to anyone the Troofers talk to. The flyer basically states that everything these people are saying is false, and gives links to the facts of the matter. It takes very little effort to do, and the CTs find it absolutely exasperating, because they've just wasted 10 seconds or five minutes or ten minutes trying to convince people that they stand for the troof.

[NDBoston]

I'm done over at the Loose Change Message Board.

It's full of mentally ill people who I want to punch in the face repeatedly.

[60hzxtl]

I respect your feelings about Ground Zero gawkers, but I don't feel the same way. The World Trade Center site is one of the most important places in history, and people are understandably curious about it. I'm in the tourism business, and in my experience Ground Zero is by far the most important thing that people new to New York want to see. I can't speak for all of them, but many people tell me that it's important for them to make some sort of physical connection to the events of 9/11. Also, most of them don't know about the memorial exhibit at St. Paul's across the street, and that's always a powerful experience.


Let me clarify - I'm ok with it now - but that viewing ramp was the wrong thing at that time. You'll appreciate this as a tourguide - I would point to it, (from inside St. Paul's) and say it was appropriate, because just across the street (Ann St.) was where Barnum's American Museum once stood.

That and the fence at St. Paul's went from a reverent heartfelt memorial, to "I went to Ground Zero and left my basketball there as a memorial" silliness.

I heard CT stories there, not from day one, but from day 5. I heard about how Guiliani had thousands of homeless people killed at the WTC and no one would ever know the number, I heard about finding pockets of people alive who were spirited away to raise the body count.

I will continue to be a thorn in the side of every CT'er, because the last thing I ever want to live to see, is the capture of a genuine WTC conspirator, followed by a trial where his defense introduce CT tripe in an attempt to get him off.

One ct'er (or a weak minded individual who has heard this stuff) on the jury, and he gets away.

[Belz...]

My new favorite thread at loose bowels.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7287

Clearly the amateur videos of the 2nd plane hitting the tower are faked :D

:jaw-dropp These guys are mad. Clearly mad.

[Brainster]

Oohhhhh, the government isn't to blame.
CTers are lame, for the following 281 reasooons.
Everybody now!


Also, they sometimes show up late. Last week I went down at 12:15 and the little poops didn't show up until after one.

99 conspiracy theorists on a wall
with 99 theories how.
If one of those theorists should happen to fall
98 conspiracy theorists on a wall!

[Gravy]

I will continue to be a thorn in the side of every CT'er, because the last thing I ever want to live to see, is the capture of a genuine WTC conspirator, followed by a trial where his defense introduce CT tripe in an attempt to get him off.

One ct'er (or a weak minded individual who has heard this stuff) on the jury, and he gets away.
I wonder if that example has ever been proposed to the Loosers. Suppose the US captured one of the 9/11 planners and put him on trial. If a Looser were on the jury, it would mean automatic acquittal, no matter what evidence the government presented. (Ideally it would never come to that, because the Looser's prejudice would be revealed in the voir dire process.)

[60hzxtl]

I wonder if that example has ever been proposed to the Loosers. Suppose the US captured one of the 9/11 planners and put him on trial. If a Looser were on the jury, it would mean automatic acquittal, no matter what evidence the government presented. (Ideally it would never come to that, because the Looser's prejudice would be revealed in the voir dire process.)

And yet, if a a defense lawyer brings in, oh, say "PROFESSOR" Jones as an "EXPERT" witness, just that amount of doubt. . .

(In the background I hear Bob Dylan, [almost just put down Dylan - that would be misinterpreted] singing "You know something is happening here, but you don't know what it is- do you? Mr. Jones.")

The loosers wouldn't care - the dead are just pawns - after all, in their own words: "the people are really secondary."

[Gravy]

And yet, if a a defense lawyer brings in, oh, say "PROFESSOR" Jones as an "EXPERT" witness, just that amount of doubt. . .

(In the background I hear Bob Dylan, [almost just put down Dylan - that would be misinterpreted] singing "You know something is happening here, but you don't know what it is- do you? Mr. Jones.")

The loosers wouldn't care - the dead are just pawns - after all, in their own words: "the people don't really matter."
Blech! I've just been listening to Steven Jones being interviewed by Alex Jones. I don't enjoy trying to keep up with the Joneses.

[Brainster]

I wonder if that example has ever been proposed to the Loosers. Suppose the US captured one of the 9/11 planners and put him on trial. If a Looser were on the jury, it would mean automatic acquittal, no matter what evidence the government presented. (Ideally it would never come to that, because the Looser's prejudice would be revealed in the voir dire process.)

During a panel presentation (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/07/uncle-fetzer-in-la.html) in LA, Uncle Fetzer groused about the prosecution of Moussaoui, claiming that the government shouldn't be able to prosecute him for not revealing 9-11 because after all, he has the right not to incriminate himself. It strikes me as an odd argument for a Truther; shouldn't the claim be that Zacharias couldn't have known anything, because there were no Arab hijackers on the plane (which is Fetzer's main contention on that panel)?

[brodski]

99 conspiracy theorists on a wall
with 99 theories how.
If one of those theorists should happen to fall
98 conspiracy theorists on a wall!
WHY did the conspiracy theorist fall? Was he PUSHED by a nano-thermite controlled demolition? Where was Bush?
WHY where there 99 conspiracy theorists in one place?!? Was it a FEMA concentration camp, and who paid for the Chinese guillotines?
Who built the wall?!? It was HAlliburton on a no bids contract! :eusa_think:

[DavidJames]

I was one of the first people back in the air when we re-opened the skies... \

When i got home from my trip i called every military branch to offer my services. They told me to stay flying civilian because im more needed to get America back in the air and that is how i am serving. I felt relieved. Although flying an airplane is like getting paid for a hobby, not only was i happy to go to work as i always was to fly an airplane and get paid..but i was proud to go to work!I have a lot of respect for people who volunteer to defend the U.S. I may not agree with some of the missions on which they're sent, but that doesn't diminish my respect.

I hope this is the one of few truthful thing johndoeX has ever said because if he's BSing like 99.9% of the drivel and bile he spouts, he deserves a special place in hell (assuming such a place exists of course.)


in this thread:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7668&st=30

[delphi_ote]

And yet, if a a defense lawyer brings in, oh, say "PROFESSOR" Jones as an "EXPERT" witness, just that amount of doubt. . .
As long as we keep organized and keep the evidence out there, any such experts will be laughed out of court or be exposed for the fools they are on the witness stand by good lawyers and judges.

Look at Behe in the Dover trial and have hope.

[dubfan]

I will continue to be a thorn in the side of every CT'er, because the last thing I ever want to live to see, is the capture of a genuine WTC conspirator, followed by a trial where his defense introduce CT tripe in an attempt to get him off.

One ct'er (or a weak minded individual who has heard this stuff) on the jury, and he gets away.

That day is coming (http://althouse.blogspot.com/2006/07/teaching-911-denial-at-uw-madison.html).

[apathoid]

I'm done over at the Loose Change Message Board.

It's full of mentally ill people who I want to punch in the face repeatedly.

I go there strictly for comic relief, particularly the alternate theories section. But sometimes, I come away from there feeling a little angry or sad. I often wonder what some of these peoples IQs are. I'd say 80% of them dont crack a 100, so they really cant help it. Others are just utterly delusional and probably should be on meds..

[dubfan]

I'm done over at the Loose Change Message Board.

It's full of mentally ill people who I want to punch in the face repeatedly.

We've all been there, NDB. Confronting mass stupidity takes its toll. Time to feed the budgies.

[DavidJames]

I'm done over at the Loose Change Message Board.

It's full of mentally ill people who I want to punch in the face repeatedly.
I'm glad you decided against dropping. That was great new thread. Notice like roaches from light, they scurry away from taking a stand.

[60hzxtl]

This is something I could watch over and over:

(LC-2 per screwloosechange link)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

[SBrown]

As long as we keep organized and keep the evidence out there, any such experts will be laughed out of court or be exposed for the fools they are on the witness stand by good lawyers and judges.

Look at Behe in the Dover trial and have hope.


Why do you feel the need to show the official story as fact? I thought that was done with the money and time spent on the official investigation. If you, as a private citizen, need to defend the government on a constant basis then maybe they are not worth defending.

[MarkyX]

Why do you feel the need to show the official story as fact? I thought that was done with the money and time spent on the official investigation. If you, as a private citizen, need to defend the government on a constant basis then maybe they are not worth defending.

It's called public support

[twinstead]

Why do you feel the need to show the official story as fact? I thought that was done with the money and time spent on the official investigation. If you, as a private citizen, need to defend the government on a constant basis then maybe they are not worth defending.

People like loose change need to be exposed. Some people (you know, the mature ones) actually care about stuff like that.

It has nothing to do with supporting any theory; it's about keeping liars away from gullible people, and it's the right thing to do.

[DavidJames]

It's called public supportI would describe my comments as a combination of attacking ignorance, defending logic and reason, and respecting the integrity of the analysis and testimony of the private companies and public and private citizens who participated in the investigation.

Defending the government does not play in the picture.

SBrown/jenabell: If you think those who contributed to the official reports are lying, I call on you to, using your own name, publicly come out and make your accusations. Call them liars, call them frauds, call them accomplices to murder and treason. Put your reputation on the line. If you really care about this country. Stand up and speak out. Don't hide, don't cower behind a fake identify and computer. There are plenty of lawyers who would, for the publicity and pro-bono, take your case public.

Do you have a strong enough case? Are you man enough?

Finally, what's your real name, my name, as my handle here indicates is David, you can call me Dave.

[dubfan]

Why do you feel the need to show the official story as fact? I thought that was done with the money and time spent on the official investigation. If you, as a private citizen, need to defend the government on a constant basis then maybe they are not worth defending.

Defending the government?

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

Interesting that you characterize our skepticism that way. From what I've seen, people here are very critical of the government. In fact, it might be that the only thing JREFers hate worse than the gubmint is woo.

[Pardalis]

And for some of us it's not even our government!

[60hzxtl]

Just as important is to realize that some folks, (Marrs, Jones, Fetzer and newcomer DYLAN!) have found a way to make a living on selling fog, because they've put it in a nice package.

Want to hear lecture about fog? Put some adjectives in front of it, and sell that lecture. You eat well, sleep well in a nice hotel, and get feted in the nicest places where you are considered the smartest, most enlightened person in the room. It's a nice way to make a living. No heavy lifting, no dirt under your nails, and no calluses.

And, while it is hard to find the evidence that Barnum actualy said it, there's a sucker born every minute.

Don't miss the Fiji Mermaid on your way to the egress!

[Mancman]

Why do you feel the need to show the official story as fact? I thought that was done with the money and time spent on the official investigation. If you, as a private citizen, need to defend the government on a constant basis then maybe they are not worth defending.

It's pretty standard for CTers to label those who disagree as 'government apologists', or Bush loving far right mega republicans, or CIA, or FBI.....et cetera

It's one of their defence mechanisms. To them the US government is the great enemy and anyone who disagrees with Loose Change is therefore defending that enemy.
Of course, nobody could ever disagree with them because of the relentless stream of crap they spew all over the place, we just love the gubmint....hur huck!

[Abbyas]

Why do you feel the need to show the official story as fact? I thought that was done with the money and time spent on the official investigation. If you, as a private citizen, need to defend the government on a constant basis then maybe they are not worth defending.

I don't feel the need to defend the government. I feel the need to let people know the amount of twisted facts and misinformation that abounds in the truth movement.

If we believe that the government is this all powerful cabal able to silence thousands of people or even hundreds, then they are way to powerful for change. We don't have to learn about the nuances of social security reform or the problems with the Patriot Act. We don't even have to vote, because what would it help.

I voted for Nader. Defending Bush is not on my list of priorities. I'm frustrated with the truth movement as an awesome distraction from real problems.

Why get our hands dirty with issues that are hard to understand when I have a sensational documentary I can watch?

[SBrown]

It's pretty standard for CTers to label those who disagree as 'government apologists', or Bush loving far right mega republicans, or CIA, or FBI.....et cetera

It's one of their defence mechanisms. To them the US government is the great enemy and anyone who disagrees with Loose Change is therefore defending that enemy.
Of course, nobody could ever disagree with them because of the relentless stream of crap they spew all over the place, we just love the gubmint....hur huck!


That is a neat attack and rhetoric but that is not an answer to my question. If there is such a strong case that the official theory is based on (they did pump quite a bit of money into a firsthand investigation) and they have proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt, why the need to constantly defend it? Have we been so brainwashed with this false sense of patriotism we no longer can allow people the opportunity to question the government? When did we become a country where private citizens are responsible for turning in their subversive neighbors? When did we lose the general ideas and principles that our founding fathers built this country on? Why have we lost sight of their vision?

Make fun all you want, ridicule all you want, but at least accept the fact that this attack you feel so attune with is nothing but an attempt at private citizen oppression.

[Pardalis]

Why do you feel the need to show the official story as fact?

Because it is the only believable, provable, and logical theory so far. And because it's the only one that is actually based on FACTS.

Need I say more?

[Pardalis]

If there is such a strong case that the official theory is based on (they did pump quite a bit of money into a firsthand investigation) and they have proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt, why the need to constantly defend it?

Because nutjobs keep attacking it with rubbish theories that the ordinary people fall trap to. In professional and engereering circles, the official story is not even questionned.

Have we been so brainwashed with this false sense of patriotism we no longer can allow people the opportunity to question the government? When did we become a country where private citizens are responsible for turning in their subversive neighbors? When did we lose the general ideas and principles that our founding fathers built this country on? Why have we lost sight of their vision?

What the hell are you talking about?


Make fun all you want, ridicule all you want, but at least accept the fact that this attack you feel so attune with is nothing but an attempt at private citizen oppression.

We ridicule these false theories because they are ridiculous. And the people who believe in it or advocate them clearly show signs of magical thinking and cult-like behaviour.

[SBrown]

Because it is the only believable, provable, and logical theory so far. And because it's the only one that is actually based on FACTS.

Need I say more?
Only believable by you. I have a differnce of opinion. My question is that if think the official version is such a strong air tight case, then there is no need to defend people from it.

[SBrown]

Because nutjobs keep attacking it with rubbish theories that the ordinary people fall trap to. In professional and engereering circles, the official story is not even questionned.



What the hell are you talking about?


Make fun all you want, ridicule all you want, but at least accept the fact that this attack you feel so attune with is nothing but an attempt at private citizen oppression.[/QUOTE]

We ridicule these false theories because they are ridiculous. And the people who believe in it or advocate them clearly show signs of magical thinking and cult-like behaviour.[/QUOTE]

Please do not mis-quote me. That is against the rules.

[Pardalis]

Only believable by you. I have a differnce of opinion. My question is that if think the official version is such a strong air tight case, then there is no need to defend people from it.

We are not defending it. We are just showing that your theories and your so called "facts" are wrong.

[Pardalis]

Please do not mis-quote me. That is against the rules.

I corrected it. It was a typing mistake.

[Mancman]

That is a neat attack and rhetoric but that is not an answer to my question. If there is such a strong case that the official theory is based on (they did pump quite a bit of money into a firsthand investigation) and they have proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt, why the need to constantly defend it? Have we been so brainwashed with this false sense of patriotism we no longer can allow people the opportunity to question the government? When did we become a country where private citizens are responsible for turning in their subversive neighbors? When did we lose the general ideas and principles that our founding fathers built this country on? Why have we lost sight of their vision?

Make fun all you want, ridicule all you want, but at least accept the fact that this attack you feel so attune with is nothing but an attempt at private citizen oppression.

The 'official' theory needs to be constantly defended because it is constantly under attack from straw-clutching nonsense and misinformation that can and has been tailored to sucker the general public into believing a certain viewpoint.

There's nothing wrong with questioning the government, nobody here has said that. But question it with good, logical, intelligent counterpoints that actually stand up to scrutiny, not any old rubbish that can be debunked by a google search.

[Pardalis]

If you have any facts that support another theory, this is the right place to talk about it. We will gladly debate it. You are free to talk about your opinions, as long as you remain polite and civil. (;) Lefevre)

[Pardalis]

And it's not because Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the Bush administration was in on it that it's true. Don't take his word for it.

[Pardalis]

Only believable by you.

And thousands of specialists around the world

[SBrown]

We are not defending it. We are just showing that your theories and your so called "facts" are wrong.

So you do not defend either side? You just point out problems with one side?

The real truth movement is pointing out the incredible amount of holes in the official theory. The holes are filled with theories. We have no budget in this endeavor, it is all by volunteer and spare time. I am not saying coming up with theories is the correct action, but it is necessary. People demand a explanation, need a explanation.

I have to leave for a while now. (I feel a need now to announce this as to not endure a lot of ridicule)

[Pardalis]

What holes?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Killtown showing us his open-mindedness by questioning not only the existence of airplanes (he's a no-planer) but of the pre-1940 european jewish community as well:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7618

[bob_kark]

So you do not defend either side? You just point out problems with one side?

The real truth movement is pointing out the incredible amount of holes in the official theory. The holes are filled with theories. We have no budget in this endeavor, it is all by volunteer and spare time. I am not saying coming up with theories is the correct action, but it is necessary. People demand a explanation, need a explanation.

I have to leave for a while now. (I feel a need now to announce this as to not endure a lot of ridicule)

Well, here we go. We have an actual chance to have a civil conversation. I implore you, in fact everyone, to give it a shot when you continue. No offence, but this continuous bickering and name calling was fun for a while, but its become quite stale.

[Pardalis]

Well, here we go. We have an actual chance to have a civil conversation. I implore you, in fact everyone, to give it a shot when you continue. No offence, but this continuous bickering and name calling was fun for a while, but its become quite stale.

I agree.

[Mancman]

Killtown showing us his open-mindedness by questioning not only the existence of airplanes (he's a no-planer) but of the pre-1940 european jewish community as well:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7618

Why is it that when someone believes in one conspiracy, they are more likely to believe in other conspiracies as well? An inherited psychological susceptibility perhaps? Or are they just bored? :confused:

[brodski]

Why is it that when someone believes in one conspiracy, they are more likely to believe in other conspiracies as well? An inherited psychological susceptibility perhaps? Or are they just bored? :confused: I got some insight into this when one "ninja" (I think it was Dubfan, I may be wrong) was posting on LC that there was exactly the same level of evidence for a CT relating to the Columbia Shuttle disaster as there was for 9/11 CTs, this backfired somewhat as instead of having them realize how flimsy the "evidence" for 9/11 CTs as, half of them started to believe in a Columbia CT!
The "shape" of the arguments for almost all CTs is the same, so once they accept one, in order to be logically consistent, they are forced to either accept ALL CT's, or reject them all as well.

[dubfan]

I'm frustrated with the truth movement as an awesome distraction from real problems.

Why get our hands dirty with issues that are hard to understand when I have a sensational documentary I can watch?

For emphasis.

(somewhat ironically, this is exactly what Noam Chomsky said, btw, when 9/11 Truthers have tried to engage him in their cause)

[Pardalis]

I got some insight into this when one "ninja" (I think it was Dubfan, I may be wrong) was posting on LC that there was exactly the same level of evidence for a CT relating to the Columbia Shuttle disaster as there was for 9/11 CTs, this backfired somewhat as instead of having them realize how flimsy the "evidence" for 9/11 CTs as, half of them started to believe in a Columbia CT!
The "shape" of the arguments for almost all CTs is the same, so once they accept one, in order to be logically consistent, they are forced to either accept ALL CT's, or reject them all as well.

Very well said.

It's very much like a cult, once you get into that mind set, it's hard to get out. Once you allow yourself to believe in such ideas, it's very easy to make you believe pretty much everything (except reality).

[dubfan]

I got some insight into this when one "ninja" (I think it was Dubfan, I may be wrong) was posting on LC that there was exactly the same level of evidence for a CT relating to the Columbia Shuttle disaster as there was for 9/11 CTs, this backfired somewhat as instead of having them realize how flimsy the "evidence" for 9/11 CTs as, half of them started to believe in a Columbia CT!

Yes, too clever by half, I was.

I've got them doubting gravity now.

I'm terrified what will happen if I bring up the Higgs boson.

[Gravy]

So you do not defend either side? You just point out problems with one side?

The real truth movement is pointing out the incredible amount of holes in the official theory. The holes are filled with theories. We have no budget in this endeavor, it is all by volunteer and spare time. I am not saying coming up with theories is the correct action, but it is necessary. People demand a explanation, need a explanation.

I have to leave for a while now. (I feel a need now to announce this as to not endure a lot of ridicule)
SBrown/Jennabell, I challenged you to present your case in a one-on-one debate here. No interference, no "private citizen oppression" whatsoever. That's a great opportunity for thousands of skeptics to view the "truth" you have to offer. You declined.

Your actions, like those of all the other Loosers who have been challenged to debate, are proof that your "movement" is nothing more than a club for intellectual cowards. You whine about oppression, yet you are completely free to accuse people of mass murder against Americans with out a shred of evidence.

If I thought my government was guilty of that crime, I sure as hell wouldn't spend my time trolling internet forums. I'd be trying to gather evidence against them. What evidence have you gathered, SBrown/Jennabell? Show us all the results of your research. Show us what evidence you've gathered to prove the guilt of the monsters who attacked us on 9/11.

Show us.

Nothing, then? Just trolling, Jennabell? You aren't actually interested in the truth? You just enjoy the opportunity to whine on the internet?

You're just another ignorant intellectual coward who crawls back under his rock when challenged.

[Stellafane]

Very well said.

It's very much like a cult, once you get into that mind set, it's hard to get out. Once you allow yourself to believe in such ideas, it's very easy to make you believe pretty much everything (except reality).

And the things you have to not believe for your little world to remain intact keeps growing and growing, until you've essentially divorced yourself from all reality. When that happens, you've completed the transition from childish silliness to actual insanity.

[Class]

My new favorite thread at loose bowels.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7287

Clearly the amateur videos of the 2nd plane hitting the tower are faked :D

Ugh. From that thread:
I like this video too:

user posted image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMZV9NSfsqA


In this heavily edited "amateur" video, notice you can hear the explosion of the crash, but not the plane approaching, even though you can hear car traffic, sirens, and a helicopter.

What really intrigues me is the woman speaking. Notice it comes right after an edit and no voices are heard when the crash happens. Note that she sounds mad, but not screaming, panicking or hysterical. She also knows it's a "suicide bomber" seconds after the crash:

"...do this? How can you do this? How sick of a mind do you have to be to be suicide bomber, or whatever? How sick! For what?"

Hmmm, scripted?

Then compare it to the over-acting "amateurs" in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyqo4oh-AzU


Killtown and moderator TheQuest call the reactions of people in the second video over-acting. :mad:

How do they expect someone to react to seeing something as terrifying and traumatic as that?

[twinstead]

short lurker decloak...

So it appears that to loose change, simply throwing all sorts of unlikely, ill-conceived theories against the wall in the hope that something sticks, just to fill up real and imagined holes in the official story is considered legitimate investigative technique. I disagree totally.

I have never seen any investigation that doesn't have anomalies and unexplained issues, and that includes the official story of 911. I however have seen NOTHING from the loose change folks that even remotely resembles logical evidence of a government plot.

I agree with Gravy; accusing people of mass murder with NO real evidence, all for ideological brownie points, is shameful.

It disgusts me.

[Johnny Pixels]

The real truth movement is pointing out the incredible amount of holes in the official theory.

The Real Truth movement? You are joking aren't you? There is nothing I've seen from the real truth movement that isn't either a repetition of somthing that has already been proved wrong/impossible, or a complete misunderstanding/warping of basic science

I am not saying coming up with theories is the correct action, but it is necessary. People demand a explanation, need a explanation.

Coming up with random theories is all well and good, but you need to ditch the ones that don't work out. The truth movement fails to do this, but instead takes on board more and more baggage, because anyone who dismisses a theory is labelled "against the truth" or (heaven forbid) a skeptic, which seems to be a dirty word for you lot.

The people have an explanation. The official report. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true. Hell, I don't like taxes, but that doesn't mean I don't have to pay them.


And on a slightly different note, you ever wonder why people get banned so readily from the Loose Change forum? I got banned for just asking questions, which is what the truth movement claims to be doing. The only difference is I pointed out where they were wrong, and things they couldn't explain, and so boosh, out I went.

And thanks for starting a thread about me. Yes, I am an uncaring monster, well, I don't care much for hypocrites at least.

[delphi_ote]

We have no budget in this endeavor, it is all by volunteer and spare time.
But you have the support of college professors and experts through the whole movement, too!

As usual, you're trying to have it both ways, showing what hypocrites and liars you all are.

[Apollyon]

The Real Truth movement? You are joking aren't you? There is nothing I've seen from the real truth movement that isn't either a repetition of somthing that has already been proved wrong/impossible, or a complete misunderstanding/warping of basic science.
Is there a "real" truth movement?

No planes at the Pentagon but at the WTC.

No planes anywhere.

Thermite.

Super thermite.

C4.

It was the government.

It was the Jews.

It was the Illuminati.

They don't seem to have any "truth." All they have is a bunch of disparate theories that none of them can seem to come to any coherent concensus on. Maybe the truthers don't realize it, but that's the biggest debunk of their "truth" that exists - The fact that they can't even agree what their truth actually is.

[DavidJames]

I finally was awarded my suspension. :)

I went to loose change to find out if there was any substance to the CTs and discovered there wasn't any.

I also went to find out what kind of people perpetuate the CTs and found a good chunk of them were much as I described in an earlier post which I won't repeat here.

Suffice it to say that the regulars at loose change will never be convinced by evidence. They simply don't have the education or experience to know the difference between expert analysis and conjecture. Nor the intellectual curiosity to find out the real truth

Nor do they have the emotional and physcologoical maturity to recognize the depth and breadth of the accusations they are making. They get indignant and insulted when you accuse them of something but have no problems of accusing others of cold blooded murder.

It's not only immaturity or inexperience that leads someone down that path. There must be other factors but damn if I know what they are.

[realitybites]

I finally was awarded my suspension. :)

I went to loose change to find out if there was any substance to the CTs and discovered there wasn't any.

I also went to find out what kind of people perpetuate the CTs and found a good chunk of them were much as I described in an earlier post which I won't repeat here.

Suffice it to say that the regulars at loose change will never be convinced by evidence. They simply don't have the education or experience to know the difference between expert analysis and conjecture. Nor the intellectual curiosity to find out the real truth

Nor do they have the emotional and physcologoical maturity to recognize the depth and breadth of the accusations they are making. They get indignant and insulted when you accuse them of something but have no problems of accusing others of cold blooded murder.

It's not only immaturity or inexperience that leads someone down that patch. There must be other factors but damn if I know.
Congrats on the suspension. Mine just ended today. But JDX's charm and mutant-like posting ability are wearing thin. That entire forum is being over-run by him and KillTown.

Which, in my estimation, is a very good thing.

[Johnny Pixels]

Is there a "real" truth movement?

No planes at the Pentagon but at the WTC.

No planes anywhere.

Thermite.

Super thermite.

C4.

It was the government.

It was the Jews.

It was the Illuminati.

They don't seem to have any "truth." All they have is a bunch of disparate theories that none of them can seem to come to any coherent concensus on. Maybe the truthers don't realize it, but that's the biggest debunk of their "truth" that exists - The fact that they can't even agree what their truth actually is.

True, it should've read "real" "truth" "movement", because they've not got any truth nor any movement because they go round in circles.

But I do worry about these people. Their world seems to be built on ideas about things, rather than facts about them.

[rikzilla]

Knowing rickzilla for as long as I have around here, I suspect he'd call most organized religions a cult (correct me if I'm wrong rik).

I was brought up in the Roman Catholic "cult", if it makes you feel any better, SOT. I don't think rik was singling out Mormons.

Well yeah Skinny :)

But then again I never spent time as a Catholic. I did spend two strange years in LDS back when I was in high school though. (My mom was into it)

But like I said...I never meant to offend SOT but LDS is indeed set up a bit like Scientology. Let me explain.

The Leader....LDS President is a claimed living prophet. (He's not)
The Dogma....Handed down to The Leader in the form of Golden Plates from Heaven. (Book of Mormon was actually an unpublished novel stolen from a printer in or about the 1830's) Disbelief in the BOM and it's young Earth theology gets you dis-fellowshipped...or somesuch.
The Priesthood....Be a guy. Be white.
The Secret....God lives on a planet near a star called Kalob. Be a good Mormon and get to be God of a planet of your own.
The Support Group (http://www.exmormon.org/)....for those "coming out of Mormonism"


It quacks and waddles. I may be wrong; but my early assessment is "duck".

Now SOT...I think you are a good level headed Joe. We need such as you in the critical thinking movement which welcomes people of all faiths etc...etc... but be careful and have thick skin. We don't usually cut any kind of woo a break around here. Not even the woo that passes for traditional religion.

sorry my friend. Someone has to say it. May as well be me.
-z

[Sword_Of_Truth]

*snip*[SoT:not gonna bother with this, didn't come here for a jihad of my own ]
Now SOT...I think you are a good level headed Joe. We need such as you in the critical thinking movement which welcomes people of all faiths etc...etc... but be careful and have thick skin. We don't usually cut any kind of woo a break around here. Not even the woo that passes for traditional religion.

sorry my friend. Someone has to say it. May as well be me.
-z

Do I dare mention that two of my best friends are wiccans?

EDIT: I will respond to ONE thing; when I get my "big promotion", my planet is gonna be the size of jupiter. It's going to be hot pink and covered in neon green polka dots the size of pluto. It's going to color clash horribly with the rest of the universe and drive all the other gods insane.

[rikzilla]

Do I dare mention that two of my best friends are wiccans?

EDIT: I will respond to ONE thing; when I get my "big promotion", my planet is gonna be the size of jupiter. It's going to be hot pink and covered in neon green polka dots the size of pluto. It's going to color clash horribly with the rest of the universe and drive all the other gods insane.

:big:

Skin thickness...check!

Good to have you aboard.

Hey, no one's perfect...two of my best friends are Republicans.
:eek:

-z

[Sword_Of_Truth]

So I passed the test? Do I get a cookie?

What amazes me is you appearantly discovered all that stuff yet didn't think to say anything about the squeegee and the flyswatter. =/

[steve s]

Is there a "real" truth movement?
.
.
.
.
.
They don't seem to have any "truth." All they have is a bunch of disparate theories that none of them can seem to come to any coherent concensus on. Maybe the truthers don't realize it, but that's the biggest debunk of their "truth" that exists - The fact that they can't even agree what their truth actually is.

Hey, I mean, like, they're just asking questions, man.:rolleyes:

Steve S.

[SBrown]

Well, here we go. We have an actual chance to have a civil conversation. I implore you, in fact everyone, to give it a shot when you continue. No offence, but this continuous bickering and name calling was fun for a while, but its become quite stale.

It appears that is not possible bob. I thought after reading this that I would see a lot of agreement with you that the games and name calling was getting old I agree(and it can be fun but it really amounts to no progress) but not in the cards :D I guess. What we get instead is almost a full page of insults, ridicule, challenges and primal chest beating. Now I am not degrading this board right now, just pointing out the obvious, it would happen the same way over at the LC board. Sad really, we are more similar than many of us even know.

Oh well back to the grind.

[apathoid]

The other thing that should be considered. WHAT IF we are wrong? WHAT IF a plane hit the building as witnesses said? Have you thought about the fact that without any direct knowledge of the people, their lives, what they saw etc. you might be accusing normal innocent human beings with families and jobs of being accessories to murder? Do you care about the implications of that? What if they were just going to work and got stuck seeing something they didn't even want to be a part of. Then have a bunch of strangers on the Internet accuse them of participating in the deaths of fellow Americans and two wars.

The reason I don't post more of my detailed research is because of how it is treated by people with hard core beliefs that can't even explain the basic physical facts of what happened at the Pentagon in light of no-plane. I am very sorry to have shared the cab driver's story here because of the disrespect it was received with. Do you actually think I would share more of my hard work in a monitored intolerant environment? My goal is to get to the truth - not provide fodder for people.

Beliefs can seriously skew our logic at times. It is best to stick with the facts. That will be our only hope of finding out how they pulled 9/11 off.

s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7228

Looks like Russell Pickering from pentagonresearch has just about had it with the Loosers. He is also applying an insane amount of logic for a CT'er in that thread. I dont think its too long before he starts abandoning his beliefs about 911 altogether.

I think he's pretty much convinced that AA77 hit the Pentagon, but thinks it was remotely guided. I just sent him a message in which I told him that if hes's interested, I can explain to him with near 100% certainty that if AA77 hit the Pentagon(as he is sure of), that it couldnt have been by remote. It'll be interesting to see how he takes that......

[Gravy]

Now I am not degrading this board right now, just pointing out the obvious, it would happen the same way over at the LC board. Sad really, we are more similar than many of us even know.
Wrong again. At the LC board, evidence and facts get a person banned. Just look at my thread there. I broke no rules and presented facts and logical arguments. That earned me a ban without warning.

Here, facts, evidence, logic, and critical thinking are required. You were challenged to furnish those. You failed to do so. Instead, you choose to troll, then to whine about unfair treatment. That's childish behavior.

So long, Jennabell, and best of luck understanding what truth is.


edit: removed last line.

[SBrown]

Wrong again. At the LC board, evidence and facts get a person banned. Just look at my thread there. I broke no rules and presented facts and logical arguments. That earned me a ban without warning.

Here, facts, evidence, logic, and critical thinking are required. You were challenged to furnish those. You failed to do so. Instead, you choose to troll, then to whine about unfair treatment. That's childish behavior.

So long, Jennabell, and best of luck understanding what truth is.


edit: removed last line.


Well that is just great but I do not trust anyone with their explanation of their bans. Look at DavidJames. He went ballistic today calling people uneducated, zero credibility(then saying he gives a rats ass about someones credibility :eek: ), called people pathetic little men, and so on. This was after he was already on thin ice for other many other of his "elitist" insults he throws around.

I got a final warning here today for taking someones quote and removing a few words to make it look like gibberish. It was an obvious joke I was making to prove a point (valid or not).

Nothing is black and white, you are not the good guys and truthers are not evil devils. Keep thinking you are the hero in a movie all you want, it does not bother me, nor does it really effect me.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well that is just great but I do not trust anyone with their explanation of their bans. Look at DavidJames. He went ballistic today calling people uneducated, zero credibility(then saying he gives a rats ass about someones credibility :eek: ), called people pathetic little men, and so on. This was after he was already on thin ice for other many other of his "elitist" insults he throws around.

I got a final warning here today for taking someones quote and removing a few words to make it look like gibberish. It was an obvious joke I was making to prove a point (valid or not).

Nothing is black and white, you are not the good guys and truthers are not evil devils. Keep thinking you are the hero in a movie all you want, it does not bother me, nor does it really effect me.

Were you planning on contributing something to the discussion of the 9/11 issue, or were you just planning on complaining about forum moderation?

[SBrown]

Were you planning on contributing something to the discussion of the 9/11 issue, or were you just planning on complaining about forum moderation?

Ironic I guess that I ask you the same.

[Gravy]

Well that is just great but I do not trust anyone with their explanation of their bans.

And that's a big difference between you and me. I didn't ask you to trust my explanation, I said you could find the evidence in the thread I started on LC. You choose not to do so. And there we have it.

These are your CHOICES, Jennabell. You choose to troll. You choose to ignore all the evidence that's right in front of you. You choose to support dishonest people and the work they create.

[SBrown]

And that's a big difference between you and me. I didn't ask you to trust my explanation, I said you could find the evidence in the thread I started on LC. You choose not to do so. And there we have it.

These are your CHOICES, Jennabell. You choose to troll. You choose to ignore all the evidence that's right in front of you. You choose to support dishonest people and the work they create.
How about you show me proof that one thread is the reason you were banned. Why is up to me to dig for something I have no information on? That is simply insane.

DavidJames claims innocence right now, yet it does not take a genius to see he was just being extremely insulting.

[Gravy]

How about you show me proof that one thread is the reason you were banned. Why is up to me to dig for something I have no information on? That is simply insane.

DavidJames claims innocence right now, yet it does not take a genius to see he was just being extremely insulting.
It's the only thread I posted on. I started the thread. I wasn't trolling on other threads as you do. See, I made it easy for you. You could also check the thread "Why was Gravy banned?" Rather than do that, you continue whining. Didn't you say you were leaving a few posts ago?

[NDBoston]

Was it this one, Gravy?

invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1765

[SBrown]

It's the only thread I posted on. I started the thread. I wasn't trolling on other threads as you do. See, I made it easy for you. You could also check the thread "Why was Gravy banned?" Rather than do that, you continue whining. Didn't you say you were leaving a few posts ago?

What are you talking about? If you have one thread over there than provide a link for it. Do you really expect me to go look for it? How long should I search? Give me a break. How about you do some research for me. I need to find a good open source search feature to embed into a web site. How about you go find the one that fits my needs. Thanks.

[Gravy]

What are you talking about? If you have one thread over there than provide a link for it. Do you really expect me to go look for it? How long should I search? Give me a break.
Still whining, I see. Rather than using your brilliant research skills, such as selecting my username and choosing "Find all threads started by Gravy," or simply using the site search features, you continue to complain.

You work very hard to ignore evidence, Jennabell. Now, if you're staying here, what about 9/11 would you like to discuss? This is a discussion forum.

[Stellafane]

What are you talking about? If you have one thread over there than provide a link for it. Do you really expect me to go look for it? How long should I search? Give me a break...

OK then, provide me a link to where you answered my question about why you post here, and what you hope to accomplish by it. Because certainly, you don't really expect me to go looking for it. Give me a break...

[SBrown]

Still whining, I see. Rather than using your brilliant research skills, such as selecting my username and choosing "Find all threads started by Gravy," or simply using the site search features, you continue to complain.

You work very hard to ignore evidence, Jennabell. Now, if you're staying here, what about 9/11 would you like to discuss? This is a discussion forum.
You have really lost touch with reality, or you are just trying to play up to your friends here. How am I able to research your membership when you say it has been banned and deleted?

As for using the search feature, there are a lot of threads that mention your name, you expect me to waste my time searching through all those?

You either expect way to much from people or you are just playing a PR game. That is just too funny.

[SBrown]

OK then, provide me a link to where you answered my question about why you post here, and what you hope to accomplish by it. Because certainly, you don't really expect me to go looking for it. Give me a break...
/boggle :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Gravy]

You have really lost touch with reality, or you are just trying to play up to your friends here. How am I able to research your membership when you say it has been banned and deleted?

As for using the search feature, there are a lot of threads that mention your name, you expect me to waste my time searching through all those?

You either expect way to much from people or you are just playing a PR game. That is just too funny.
I didn't say anything was deleted, you did.
Now, this is a discussion forum about 9/11. Are you here to discuss that, or are you still trolling?

[SBrown]

I didn't say anything was deleted, you did.
Now, this is a discussion forum about 9/11. Are you here to discuss that, or are you still trolling?

WTF? This is impossible. I looked after just to make sure, you have no acount under this name. You ask me to do something then accuse me of trolling because I ask for a link. That is just crazy.

I will be back later, need to go to a movie. If you can provide a link I will look at it and comment. But do not accuse me of being a troll for trying to answer your question.

[Pardalis]

Let's talk about 9/11 SBrown. What are the "holes" in the official story (except the ones in the three buildings)?

[Gravy]

WTF? This is impossible. I looked after just to make sure, you have no acount under this name. You ask me to do something then accuse me of trolling because I ask for a link. That is just crazy.

I will be back later, need to go to a movie. If you can provide a link I will look at it and comment. But do not accuse me of being a troll for trying to answer your question.

Still whining and refusing to do your homework? I can find the thread with no problem but you can't? I even gave you the TITLE of another thread that linked back to mine. No, it's all a big mystery to jennabell. Must be a conspiracy! Is this how you conduct your investigations into the "truth?"

Pathetic.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1765&st=0

[Stellafane]

/boggle :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

About the answer I expected.

What a pathetic shtick. But keep it up; if I ever run into anyone that gives 9/11 CT'ers even an ounce of credibility, I'll just point them to you as a typical example. That should immediately shame them into repudiating all CT'ers, because no one remotely in their right mind would ever want to be associated with a cause you believe in.

[Johnny C.]

It appears that is not possible bob. I thought after reading this that I would see a lot of agreement with you that the games and name calling was getting old I agree(and it can be fun but it really amounts to no progress) but not in the cards :D I guess. What we get instead is almost a full page of insults, ridicule, challenges and primal chest beating. Now I am not degrading this board right now, just pointing out the obvious, it would happen the same way over at the LC board. Sad really, we are more similar than many of us even know.

Oh well back to the grind.

Dont try to pretend that you want a civilized discussion. You are merely doing that to linger here longer. You cant stand to be away from people that despise you for some odd reason. Reguardless of why you're here, I think you went on for a whole lengthy paragraph about how I lived with my parents, had no social life, played Diablo, and was quite found of my e-penis (your exact words were that I "thrived online"). And all because DJ was oblivious to why people were calling him a moron repeatedly. I smile when I imagine Dj's confused look on his face after getting three simple one word posts consecutively that said "irony".

I find you to be no more sincere when you say you want an end to name-calling then when you say you are on a quest to find the truth.

I will be back later, need to go to a movie.

Thats twice thus far, in the past 3 pages of this thread, that you have told us the personal plans for the evening. Why?

[Hutch]

s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7228

Looks like Russell Pickering from pentagonresearch has just about had it with the Loosers. He is also applying an insane amount of logic for a CT'er in that thread. I dont think its too long before he starts abandoning his beliefs about 911 altogether.

I think he's pretty much convinced that AA77 hit the Pentagon, but thinks it was remotely guided. I just sent him a message in which I told him that if hes's interested, I can explain to him with near 100% certainty that if AA77 hit the Pentagon(as he is sure of), that it couldnt have been by remote. It'll be interesting to see how he takes that......


Russell Pickering is one of the few over there I do truly respect; he is willing to do his own digging and contact people/places to try and add more evidence to support his therory and was not afraid to call folks on specious items. While I disagree with his conclusions, he is at least operating in a proper manner...and will probably end up banished from LC-we shall see.

Tried to turn him to the "Dark Side" while I was over there; perhaps he'll find it on his own. :)

Russ, if you happen to read this, feel free to post here for more discussion; I'll keep this bunch of hooligans in line for you...:cool: :D

And guys, take a deep breath and get a good night's sleep and ease up a bit on ol'SB/Jena; right now we are feeding him by responding to every post--lets take a look, if there are questions he's asking make sure we've answered them and then sit back and wait to see what comes next. Trading unproductive posts is, well, unproductive.

Just IMHO as always

Press on.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ironic I guess that I ask you the same.

My memory must be failing; can you please provide a link to where I was complaining about forum moderation?

[Pardalis]

Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing, but I think we should give SBrown another chance and have a discussion about Loose Change and the conspiracies with her.

[Kent1]

For those who might be interested, Bazant has an update to his paper on the WTC collapse.
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/ProgressiveCollapseWTC-6-23-2006.pdf

[Kent1]

Russell Pickering is one of the few over there I do truly respect; he is willing to do his own digging and contact people/places to try and add more evidence to support his therory and was not afraid to call folks on specious items. While I disagree with his conclusions, he is at least operating in a proper manner...and will probably end up banished from LC-we shall see.

Tried to turn him to the "Dark Side" while I was over there; perhaps he'll find it on his own. :)

Russ, if you happen to read this, feel free to post here for more discussion; I'll keep this bunch of hooligans in line for you...:cool: :D

And guys, take a deep breath and get a good night's sleep and ease up a bit on ol'SB/Jena; right now we are feeding him by responding to every post--lets take a look, if there are questions he's asking make sure we've answered them and then sit back and wait to see what comes next. Trading unproductive posts is, well, unproductive.

Just IMHO as always

Press on.

I agree. I respect people like him who REALLY does research. Contacting various experts/primary sources seems to be SO rare on the CT side.

[Gravy]

Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing, but I think we should give SBrown another chance and have a discussion about Loose Change and the conspiracies with her.
No one has prevented SBrown from having a discussion. No one has forced SBrown to be a troll. Those are his/her choices.

[Pardalis]

No one has prevented SBrown from having a discussion. No one has forced SBrown to be a troll. Those are his/her choices.

You're right, it's all up to her now.

[rikzilla]

How about you show me proof that one thread is the reason you were banned. Why is up to me to dig for something I have no information on? That is simply insane.

DavidJames claims innocence right now, yet it does not take a genius to see he was just being extremely insulting.

Oh please!
We all know how the looser forum operates...hell, we've practically all been banned there...some more than once! Asking for such "proof" is like asking for proof that the sky is blue.

What is simply insane is that your entire "movement" is built on "digging up something (you) have no (real) information on" And yes...the troooth movement is clearly insane.

-z

[Kent1]

One other little update.
A new video showing some building 7 damage. A photo posted at DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=97490&mesg_id=98276

I don't have the video yet, but its worth checking out.

[Gravy]

One other little update.
A new video showing some building 7 damage. A photo posted at DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=97490&mesg_id=98276

I don't have the video yet, but its worth checking out.
Great contributions, Kent1. I wish my math was up to understanding the Bazant paper. Fascinating glimpse of WTC 7 there!

[SRW]

Sometimes I feel that I an really spinning my wheels over there , then other times I run across a fence sitter and an able to demonstrate how ludicrous the CT claims, are. For example the was a Controlled demo of building 7 rant going on and I was able to Link the pages the NYT did on all the Firemen, who were there. Same with the Pentagon, where they would haul out the one guy who saw a small plane and I was able to bring out the dozens who saw a Jet. The big revaluation comes when I show that one of them does not have a clue about what he is talking about. (if I can keep from getting bumped that is.

This one guy went on and on about Ollie North and OBL, I was about the shoot him down with the truth and made him look foolish. And got the point across to the room, not to believe those loud mouths but to find out for them selfs. Catching them in a blatant lie and making them defend their positions is a great way to make them crack.

I would not recommend a room raid. but setting up a real truth might help. Going into thoes rooms makes you feel dirty, espcially when the anit-semitic crap comes out.

I am also thinking of putting a pod cast togethier of all the most ludricous statments, but there is just way to much junk...

[Gravy]

Sometimes I feel that I an really spinning my wheels over there , then other times I run across a fence sitter and an able to demonstrate how ludicrous the CT claims, are.
Thanks for fighting the good fight, SRW. Paltalk is video chat? Is that right?

[SRW]

Some vidio, mostly voice and text. and in that room lots of BS.

[SBrown]

OK where should I start, I am going to just recap here instead of quoting each post because I am tired of being accused of trolling because I answer everyones questions/comments/complaints/insults.

First of all the reason I tell everyone my plans is because I want to try and avoid all the insinuations that I am running or avoiding any questions or comments. I hope that it cuts down on ridicule aimed my while I cannot respond. Of course it appears as though that was a pipe dream.

Arkan_Wolfshade – you didnt; great you proved my statement false and you win. I just figured you might figure out what I meant without a whole page of reply. My fault.

Gravy – First you want to be vague and avoid a direct response with a link and dance around like I am trying to avoid the post at all, fine. All you had to do was give me the name of the thread, a link something (not some reference to a post name that you just assume I would know contained a link). Your demeanor here towards me reminds me a lot of how I am confrontational with people from here when they are over at LC(not as abrasive but same tone/manner). So I cannot fault you all that much since I am more guilty of it than you.

Now for the ban – can't disagree with you about the absolute ridiculous nature or absence of any reason or reasoning. There was no sense for you to be banned from the posting or discussion you were involved with in that thread whatsoever. Many Lc member's spoke up on your behalf. The members you pissed off must have been done through pm's (not inferring that you were wrong or uncivil). I have a feeling of who it may be that did the most complaining. Or maybe the mod that did it was just having a bad day and took it out on you, but whatever i agree you did not deserve it whatsoever. Now this was back in April, is this the event that started the bad blood between the two “groups”? I think that that is a pretty small reason to have such a disgust for each other and stoop to such tactics as we do. We should be able to have a discussion without anger being the biggest factor. Of course I understand I am a big perpetrator of it, I cause a lot of rifts (mostly on purpose) with you guys.

Johnny C. I do not have a clue on what you are talking about. You will have to refresh my memory, this board, lc board, your name, when did I do this evil thing?

Now as for debating here in a civilized way? Maybe in a few weeks. Why? For one it is obvious to me that many of you will not take me serious and simply have some bad feelings toward me and discussions will be derailed constantly because I have a hard time trying to ignore comments thrown my way. Funny thing is three of the people that I have made the most angry here are some of my biggest supporters for a second chance after my suspension (you notice I said here, over at LC....). Second I am not a good debater. I have mentioned that many times. So if I start to enter the discussions now I will have more of a propensity to lose my temper and lash out if the environment is much more hostile. So anyways I am going to stick around and post some here and there. I am a joking person so I am going to continue in some of my theatrics (the less abrasive ones). I am not trying to get suspended or banned here anymore. I quit doing that after Tim was very cordial to me after I was obviously being a tool.

If you still want to hurl insults at me because you believe I am worthless, then by all means go for broke. You may be able to provoke me into slipping up and hurling insults back, but so far I have been called pathetic more times than I can count here and failed to respond (until now). CYA

[Regnad Kcin]

I, for one, welcome your contribution. That is, if you're sincere in what you say. Some of your early posts here were not promising, I think you must know.

Also, your tone at the LC forum (not to mention your sig) is quite hostile to the JREF in general. That's unfortunate, considering this is, at most, merely a gathering place to discuss near countless topics both serious and light. Do you think it is productive to behave in such a manner?

Regardless of all of this, please feel free to discuss any aspect of 9/11 you like. For instance, in my brief review of your past posts, I see you seem certain the Pentagon enjoys restricted airspace. Since it does not, will you retract the assertion?

[Gravy]

Now for the ban – can't disagree with you about the absolute ridiculous nature or absence of any reason or reasoning. There was no sense for you to be banned from the posting or discussion you were involved with in that thread whatsoever.
Thanks for agreeing.

Many Lc member's spoke up on your behalf. The members you pissed off must have been done through pm's (not inferring that you were wrong or uncivil).
Why the assumption? I sent no PMs, and the only one I received was from TheQuest, asking that I respond to a question he had posted, which I did. The thread I started was by far the most popular one on the LC forum, hence TheQuest's "You're wasting our time" comments.

Now this was back in April, is this the event that started the bad blood between the two “groups”? I think that that is a pretty small reason to have such a disgust for each other and stoop to such tactics as we do.
Hardly. I was a latecomer to these issues. Others were banned and suspended for similar non-violations before me. I think the animosity that exists between the groups results from how the events of 9/11 are portrayed, what standards of evidence are used, and how amenable people are to altering their positions to conform to the facts.

We should be able to have a discussion without anger being the biggest factor.
Many of us attempted to do that on the LC forum. Our arguments were met with suspensions and bans. In what way is this consistent with a search for the truth? Don't you find it extremely hypocritical that the "truth movement" bans people who have logical, factual information to offer? Why do you support such a group?

Now as for debating here in a civilized way? Maybe in a few weeks. Why? For one it is obvious to me that many of you will not take me serious and simply have some bad feelings toward me and discussions will be derailed constantly because I have a hard time trying to ignore comments thrown my way.
I'm curious to know if you have any understanding of why people have a hard time taking you seriously here. These are just a few of your threads that weren't removed by the mods because of your spamming. Your behavior patterns were pointed out to you a number of times, to no positive effect.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1670279#post1670279
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1677804&postcount=1237
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1694732#post1694732
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1726643#post1726643
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58969
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58972
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58978
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58984
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58988
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=59598
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=59609
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1753972&postcount=33
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=59611
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1754359&postcount=39

I am not trying to get suspended or banned here anymore. I quit doing that after Tim was very cordial to me after I was obviously being a tool.

That's good news. I sincerely welcomed you when you first started posting here. Welcome back.

[Gravy]

...For instance, in my brief review of your past posts, I see you seem certain the Pentagon enjoys restricted airspace. Since it does not, will you retract the assertion?
Talk about restricted! Remember the attempted "Million Missile March" on the Pentagon?

Posted by elroacho at LC forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7228&view=findpost&p=5860159)
It has its own radar system capable of tracking over a million missles fired at it simutanously, underground and aboveground missle launchers, cameras every few feet, andrews a few miles away. It has been regaurded as "the most secure building on earth".
Permit denied!

[gumboot]

His thoughts are at the top of the http://www.911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html page, if you're interested. (Apologies for plugging my own site, but I think this guy is qualified enough for it to be relevant.)


I find something really interesting in his piece (which is excellent). It is a quote from Nila Sagadevan's article:

approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway - -, there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing. - -

Comments similar to this one REALLY make me angry, because my Father had a friend who was in the Naval Wing which was hit. He happened to be in another part of the building at the time, so he survived, but many of his workmates did not.

The main thing is this section was NOT under renovation. It had been FINISHED. It was fully staffed as an office.

The list of victims at the Pentagon (not including those onboard AA77) is here. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/911/pentagon.htm)

To summarise... the list includes the following people with rank:

Spc. Craig Amundson, 28, Fort Belvoir, Va.
Lt. Col. Canfield D. Boone, 54, Clifton, Va.
Sgt. 1st Class Jose Orlando Calderon-Olmedo, 44, Annandale, Va.
Lt. Cmdr. Eric Allen Cranford, 32, Drexel, N.C.
Lt. Col. Jerry Don Dickerson, 41, Durant, Miss.
Capt. Robert Edward Dolan, 43, Alexandria, Va.
Cmdr. William Howard Donovan, 37, Nunda, N.Y.
Cmdr. Patrick S. Dunn, 39, Springfield, Va.
Lt. Cmdr. Robert Randolph Elseth, 37, Vestal, N.Y.
Capt. Lawrence Daniel Getzfred, 57, Elgin, Neb.
Maj. Wallace Cole Hogan, 40, Fla.
Lt. Col. Stephen Neil Hyland, 45, Burke, Va.
Sgt. Maj. Lacey B. Ivory, 43, Woodbridge, Va.
Lt. Col. Dennis M. Johnson, 48, Port Edwards, Wis.
Lt. Michael Scott Lamana, 31, Baton Rouge, La.
Maj. Steve Long, 39, Ga.
Lt. Col. Dean E. Mattson, 57, Calif.
Lt. Gen. Timothy J. Maude, 53, Fort Myer, Va.
Maj. Ronald D. Milam, 33, Washington, D.C.
Lt. Cmdr. Patrick Jude Murphy, 38, Flossmoor, Ill.
Spc. Chin Sun Pak, 25, Lawton, Okla.
Lt. Jonas Martin Panik, 26, Mingoville, Pa.
Maj. Clifford L. Patterson, 33, Alexandria, Va.
Lt. J.G. Darin Howard Pontell, 26, Columbia, Md.
Lt. Col. David M. Scales, 44, Cleveland, Ohio
Cmdr. Robert Allan Schlegel, 38, Alexandria, Va.
Cmdr. Dan Frederic Shanower, 40, Naperville, Ill.
Sgt. Maj. Larry Strickland, 52, Woodbridge, Va.
Maj. Kip P. Taylor, 38, McLean, Va.
Sgt. Tamara Thurman, 25, Brewton, Ala.
Lt. Cmdr. Otis Vincent Tolbert, 38, Lemoore, Calif.
Lt. Cmdr. Ronald James Vauk, 37, Nampa, Idaho
Lt. Col. Karen Wagner, 40, Houston, Texas
Staff Sgt. Maudlyn A. White, 38, St. Croix, Virgin Islands
Lt. Cmdr. David Lucian Williams, 32, Newport, Ore.
Maj. Dwayne Williams, 40, Jacksonville, Ala.

This does not include 3x people listed with (retired) rank (a Master Sergeant, Captain, and Lieutenant Colonel).

That would have to be the strangest collection of "civilian construction workers" ever to congregate in one place.

-Andrew

P.S. I find the staggering number of high-ranking officers to be quite chilling.

[Stellafane]

OK where should I start...

Hi SBrown. I'm guessing this couldn't have been easy for you to write, and in my opinion, it shows a certain level of maturity and self-awareness that frankly, I had not thought you were capable of, based on your earlier posts.

I suspect you know that your past posting behavior in this forum has dug a rather sizeable hole for yourself as far as your reputation goes. And because of that, I'm still rather wary of your overall intentions here. But I'm with Pardalis (perhaps because we were both brought up Catholic) in being willing to give people a second chance.

So in all sincerity, I'd like to ask a question (and a followup): What for you is the biggest, most obvious problem with the "official" version of 9/11? Why do you think that, and what, if anything, would convince you that the official version is in fact correct? If you're truly interested in meaningful discussion and exchange of ideas and information, this might be a good way to start.

ETA: BTW, are you male or female? I don't care either way; I just don't want to impolitely refer to you as "she" if in fact you're male, and vice versa. For the record, I'm male (despite the fact my nick is sometimes shortened to "Stella").

[Hutch]

P.S. I find the staggering number of high-ranking officers to be quite chilling.

Nice information, gumboot. I would comment on your remark, though: the majority of the ranks shown were LTC (0-5) or Major (0-4) (the US Navy CDR and LT CDR are equal to LTC and MAJ), and nearly all career officers in the US Military will eventually make those ranks. It is moving onward to "Full Bird" Colonel and General level that really weeds out the numbers and most Career Officers end as LTC (at least in my observation of the US Army as a civilian employee for the last 25 years).

The only really high-ranking Officer lost was the Lt General (3-star level).

Just my two cents.

[delphi_ote]

OK where should I start, I am going to just recap here instead of quoting each post because I am tired of being accused of trolling because I answer everyones questions/comments/complaints/insults.

Just in case anyone actually buys Ms. Innocent's "woe is me" story in this post, I'll point out that SBrown was suspended from the forum for a while for intentionally spamming the board with nonsense threads. She then bragged about being banned on Loose Change. As soon as she got back from her suspension, she started making off topic posts threads all over the board. SBrown actually wants to get suspended, wants to harass, and wants to be pitied whenever she gets called on it.

Notice that nowhere in her post does she mention 9/11. It's not really important to her. That's not why she's here. She wants pats on the back from the Loosers. She can't debate the actual issue at hand. She's trying every tactic she can to avoid discussing the facts. She knows she'll lose. Now she's rushing to find ways to look like a martyr, to find ways to be pitied, to find ways to make JREF look bad. None of them are working, because all the facts about 9/11 are out there plain as day.

She's trying to create a smoke screen so she can run away.

[NDBoston]

Where's my badge? I'm toast from LC. I'm guessing Dylan didn't like what I had to say about him.

[dubfan]

Tools. The only person on the board who actually worked in WTC7 and they ban you.

Sheesh. Like I'm surprised.

[WildCat]

Where's my badge? I'm toast from LC. I'm guessing Dylan didn't like what I had to say about him.
The thread that got NDBoston banned (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7707&st=0).

Nice work, the bans usually come right when you get them to the point of being forced to answer a question that makes the whole CT look like the complete loony nonsense it is.

I see our "pilot" friend ignored DavidJames questons as to when he last worked and when he will work again in that thread. IMHO he's a unemployed pilot wannabe who got rejected from the USAF but now spends all his time on the web picking up pilot jargon. Sad and pathetic, much like the rest of the loosers.

[realitybites]

Where's my badge? I'm toast from LC. I'm guessing Dylan didn't like what I had to say about him.
What the EFF? Why can't I get banned there? A nice two-day suspension, sure. But, I want an ****** badge....

Congrats though NDB. Couldn't have happened to a better hive-member.:cool:

[WildCat]

The thread that got NDBoston banned (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7707&st=0).

Now Dylan himself has chimed in, claiming he wasn't making fun of the passengers, nosiree Bob. He was just mocking the official theory... :confused:

[Brainster]

Now Dylan himself has chimed in, claiming he wasn't making fun of the passengers, nosiree Bob. He was just mocking the official theory... :confused:

Uncle Fetzer seems to be picking up that scorn for the passengers from Dylan. He's said several times that if he'd been on one of those planes when somebody tried to take it over with a box cutter, he'd have grabbed his luggage and beaten the guy to death with it. He's also quite enamored of repeating Mark Bingham's "Hi, Mom? It's me, Mark Bingham."

I've commented on this before; it was Dylan's treatment of Betty Ong, Mark Bingham and Todd Beamer (in LCV1) that got me angry enough to start the blog with James.

[DavidJames]

Now Dylan himself has chimed in, claiming he wasn't making fun of the passengers, nosiree Bob. He was just mocking the official theory... :confused:I've commented on this before; it was Dylan's treatment of Betty Ong, Mark Bingham and Todd Beamer (in LCV1) that got me angry enough to start the blog with James.

That's a point I've tried to make with them but like most, it was ignored or fell on deaf ears.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, I don't believe many of them are psychologically and emotional mature enough to understand the human implications of what they are saying. Those slugs have no qualms about accusing people of mass murder or complicity with mass murder, but heaven forbid you offend their sensibilities or they feel insulted at something you say about them, they whine and cry and go running to the mods. I say they run to the mods because of an incident that happened early on with me.

When someone asked if jenoballs was lying or stupid, I responded, both. I was warned by a mod. I accepted it and asked if DJRunaway was warned about an adhom of equal value. He asked for the thread, I gave it to him. Later I read a post by DJRunaway who said he doesn't post much in the skeptics forum because the mods are out to get him. I believe he was warned. So, I'm not sure the mods go through the threads looking for ways to ban, but seem to respond to cry babies (joedickX and jennoballs, I'm looking at you :D)

[dubfan]

Uncle Fetzer seems to be picking up that scorn for the passengers from Dylan.

:D

[NDBoston]

I love the fact that John is now brave enough to say I worked in Boston instead of NY. He might want to do some research on where the actual software development was/is done in house for Salomon before and after the merger. It was New York and London.

I'm going to be at 9/11 in three months with the widows of three good friends from Cantor Fitzgerald. I recommend the "truthers" not say boo to these women because I will not take that very well.

There's no question in my mind that Dylan is using 9-11 to further his dream. Let's face it. He graduated in 2002 from high school and was turned down by a second tier film school. He was destined to work at the Gap.

It's been reported by Dylan that over 50,000 copies have been sold at 17.95 a pop. The cost of the film was $1500. That's 900,000 before counting t-shirt sales and the soon to be made windfall when the film hits theatres in September.

Sure, he's not in it for the money.

[Pardalis]

One more time SBrown.

What are the holes in the 9/11 official story that are big enough to make you doubt it?

Let's cut the BS and start the debate once and for all. No trolling, no spamming, no insults, no distractions. ONLY FACTS.

[twinstead]

One more time SBrown.

What are the holes in the 9/11 official story that are big enough to make you doubt it?

Let's cut the BS and start the debate once and for all. No trolling, no spamming, no insults, no distractions. ONLY FACTS.

I'm sure I can speak for the other lurkers and semi lurkers as well when I say I'll second that.

[Brainster]

I love the fact that John is now brave enough to say I worked in Boston instead of NY. He might want to do some research on where the actual software development was/is done in house for Salomon before and after the merger. It was New York and London.

I'm going to be at 9/11 in three months with the widows of three good friends from Cantor Fitzgerald. I recommend the "truthers" not say boo to these women because I will not take that very well.

There's no question in my mind that Dylan is using 9-11 to further his dream. Let's face it. He graduated in 2002 from high school and was turned down by a second tier film school. He was destined to work at the Gap.

It's been reported by Dylan that over 50,000 copies have been sold at 17.95 a pop. The cost of the film was $1500. That's 900,000 before counting t-shirt sales and the soon to be made windfall when the film hits theatres in September.

Sure, he's not in it for the money.

Ah, but if you read the Vanity Fair article (http://www.loosechange911.com/img/vf2.png) you'll see that Korey Rowe has a response to that. They haven't been making any money because they gave away 100,000 copies of the DVD.

[mrfreeze]

Yes please, lets stop with the cheap shots and insults at each other and actually get some form of a debate on!

Why not offer SBrown the same deal that was given to DJwhatevertherestofhisnamewas? A completely seperate topic where her and someone (probably gravy) can debate the matter civilly? That way there will be no derailing or people getting blown tempers and getting themselves in trouble?

[WildCat]

Let's cut the BS and start the debate once and for all. No trolling, no spamming, no insults, no distractions. ONLY FACTS.
I'll lay off any CT'er who is willing to debate the facts and theories. But the next one to do so will be the first.

[Belz...]

CULT JREF 4 LiFE
Proudly Back at the Hive
MEOW!
One Day I WILL be a mod!

Boy, you ARE deluded.

[DavidJames]

Yes please, lets stop with the cheap shots and insults at each other and actually get some form of a debate on!

Why not offer SBrown the same deal that was given to DJwhatevertherestofhisnamewas? A completely seperate topic where her and someone (probably gravy) can debate the matter civilly? That way there will be no derailing or people getting blown tempers and getting themselves in trouble?Already been done. Had read you any of SBrown/jenabell comments you would know that he is not interested one bit in debate.

Gravy's comments here about one such attempt at civility.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1754535&postcount=1645

[Belz...]

If there is such a strong case that the official theory is based on (they did pump quite a bit of money into a firsthand investigation) and they have proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt, why the need to constantly defend it?

Er... because it's beign attacked ? Sheesh. You're right. Defense attorneys should never speak in court. :rolleyes:

Have we been so brainwashed with this false sense of patriotism we no longer can allow people the opportunity to question the government?

Are you really so blind as to think that everyone here lives in the US ?

Only believable by you.

Don't forget all those nasty structural engineers.

[Hutch]

Yes please, lets stop with the cheap shots and insults at each other and actually get some form of a debate on!

Why not offer SBrown the same deal that was given to DJwhatevertherestofhisnamewas? A completely seperate topic where her and someone (probably gravy) can debate the matter civilly? That way there will be no derailing or people getting blown tempers and getting themselves in trouble?

Would, but SBrown/jenabell is, IMHO, more of a 'fan' than a real reseacher--in other words, he supports the CT, thinks it is more accurate that current thought, and thinks highly of the "real truth" researchers over at LC. However, I don't think he is all that great at his own research--which is not a bad thing, I for example know a lot less on this topic than Gravy, MarkyX, dubfan and others, which is why I will tend to defer to them in terms of research and therory. I think asking SBrown to debate (for that matter, DJLegacy has not shown any great research abilities either) would be the same as matching me against one of the, for example, pentagon researchers over there. I might be able to pick some holes, but I would not have the knowledge to truly debate--and I am of the opinion that SBrown/jenabell is of the same ilk.

Now, if SBrown wants to propose some additional questions for discussion, I am all for it. Just do not expect someone with a first-level knowledge and reseach to be able to do more than they can.

What we need to do is attract folks like Russ Pickering, Merc (who apparently is no longer a Jerk), Sun Zoo, and even Killtown from LC to try out their therories over here. Mind you, I will be among those opposing thier views, but they at least have made some pretense at reseach and are capable of making arguments that they are willing to defend--even if we don't think a whole lot of said arguments.

All I am saying is don't expect more of SBrown that he is able to give. Call me a cockeyed optomist, but we might even get a fairly decent conversation started if given half a chance.

That said, I remain permantly suspended from my home computer (courtesy of The Quest) and will have to see if my work IP suspension (for unknown actions) ended come Monday. We shall see.

Press on.

[hellaeon]

I'm done over at the Loose Change Message Board.

It's full of mentally ill people who I want to punch in the face repeatedly.


hahaha been away for the weekend and catching up on a read.
Thats quite funny. I know the feeling.

[hellaeon]

Only believable by you. I have a differnce of opinion. My question is that if think the official version is such a strong air tight case, then there is no need to defend people from it.

Come on man...If you think Loose change is so airtight why attack those who show it to be completely wrong? Shouldnt it speak for itself? It is shown to be completely distorted reality...a great fiction and nothing else. Its hard to imagine your here sincerely for a constructive debate after the way you conduct yourself at the LC boards. So many attacks on James Randi (when did he ever quip into this ???) and various accusations of his past and such as if it made Loose Change suddenly more factual?

Regarding a seperate thread debate, though I was pretty pleased to see the seperate thread arise for Legacy and Gravy (despite gravy's reluctance to give them any kind of thread dedication in that manner), It took all of 0 posts for legacy to run. It was actually amazing. Not one arguement. All the rhetoric spewed forth in the LC forums only to have that eventuate was very sad.

I felt pity for the movement.

Like the pity you feel for the opposition of your sports team when they smash another.

None.

[realitybites]

These guys are gettin' pretty high on their woo horses (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7786) if you ask me.

In case anyone was wondering, a red light on your router means "tapped phone line", and internet redirects are indicative of "being watched".

[apathoid]

If anyone wants to have a go at Killtown, he is over on the Screw Loose Change blog "just asking questions", and has been there for the last 2 days.
You can tell just be looking at his avatar that he is seriously distubed...

[Johnny C.]

Johnny C. I do not have a clue on what you are talking about. You will have to refresh my memory, this board, lc board, your name, when did I do this evil thing?

Ok

Bingo you finally just proved yourself as nothing but a sheltered imbecile. Your whole life is most likely engrossed in your life on the Internet and your academic career (whatever that may be) and your parents protecting you from the outside world. You deal a strong Internet game, yet fail miserably in the real world. The problem is that you have run into people that can excel at both. We may not follow all the dweeb protocols but we can follow along good enough to see right through your thin skin. You're that thin skinned Internet dweeb. The real world is is too dangerous for you.....good luck in the New World Order, maybe you will be drafted when the time comes for North Korea or Iran to fall under our imperialistic sword. Of course you may not even be for the US, or from this world for that matter (damn JREF mutants!).

Thats why I wont take you seriously. Especially the part about invading North Korea and Iran. Check out what we did to Iran when they started developing nukes, and where China gets its oil from.

Im curious about these gaping wholes in the official story (read:truth) also. Waiting...

[Class]

If anyone wants to have a go at Killtown, he is over on the Screw Loose Change blog "just asking questions", and has been there for the last 2 days.
You can tell just be looking at his avatar that he is seriously distubed...
I think I got to about four of his posts before I had to reach for the Excedrin.

Turns out he's a holocaust denier as well. And I thought I had seen it all. Killtown is definitely the looniest conspiracy theorist I have ever seen.

[hellaeon]

Once, when I was posting at the Letsroll Forums, a number of us had our modems going down in the same way, all over the continent. Apparently, someone traced it to a room at the Pentagon.

What's strange is that they appear to be battling us, but in the end it makes no difference and they just give it up.

As things progress, we'll see some new tactics for sure, but it's way out of their grip now, thanks to Loose Change and Google Video.

Some high level and mid level people are sh*tting bricks.

All we need now are a contingent of whistleblowers to spring forth out of the woodwork, and it's over for the perps, at least historically speaking.

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

[realitybites]

All we need now are a contingent of whistleblowers to spring forth out of the woodwork....
Along with some facts, some rational thoughts, some experts, some sanity, some logic, and a new job so we can move out of my mom's basement.

[Jas]

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

Seconded. That's one of the funniest things I've seen all week.

[Johnny C.]

Along with some facts, some rational thoughts, some experts, some sanity, some logic, and a new job so we can move out of my mom's basement.
That sounds like a lot of work. Pretending to be a pilot seems like a better solution.

[WildCat]

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif
Traced to the Pentagon... :dl:

[60hzxtl]

Oh c'mon - don't they know WHY skype is free?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4740

Don't tell them - I don't want them to figure out that chucksheen is a shill for Skype.

[Brainster]

These guys are gettin' pretty high on their woo horses (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7786) if you ask me.

In case anyone was wondering, a red light on your router means "tapped phone line", and internet redirects are indicative of "being watched".

Note as well that what he feels is not worried but turned on; special.

This appears to be a pretty consistent syndrome with the Truthers. Remember Dylan saying that he hoped he was on a government list somewhere? Or Barry Zwicker saying that the government would be wasting taxpayers' money if they hadn't infiltrated the "Truth" movement?

This is why we get all these claims of imminent fascism in this country. It's not that the Truthers want to exaggerate Bush's supposed crimes, or minimize Hitler's (with the obvious exception of the Holocaust revisionists among them). It's about them; they want to be the noble & heroic resistance, and so they maximize the purported risks that they are taking by speaking out. That they know it's a bunch of nonsense is obvious; otherwise they wouldn't be "turned on" to know the government was watching them.

[60hzxtl]

This appears to be a pretty consistent syndrome with the Truthers. Remember Dylan saying that he hoped he was on a government list somewhere? Or Barry Zwicker saying that the government would be wasting taxpayers' money if they hadn't infiltrated the "Truth" movement?

That they know it's a bunch of nonsense is obvious; otherwise they wouldn't be "turned on" to know the government was watching them.

That's what happens when you are playing a part in your own movie.

You get to be the hero - look at how much camera time he hogs up in the "extras" - he is playing a part, just pretend.

It's still fiction - but he is beginning to believe the stories he's told himself.

(So THAT's why there's a red light on the dsl box!)

[steve s]

It's been reported by Dylan that over 50,000 copies have been sold at 17.95 a pop. The cost of the film was $1500. That's 900,000 before counting t-shirt sales and the soon to be made windfall when the film hits theatres in September.

Sure, he's not in it for the money.

Dylan forgot to get permission from the Naudets to use their footage. Would it be too much to hope that he forgot to report all this income to the IRS?:D

Steve S.

[steve s]

These guys are gettin' pretty high on their woo horses (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7786) if you ask me.

In case anyone was wondering, a red light on your router means "tapped phone line", and internet redirects are indicative of "being watched".

Chucksheen had a rational, non-paranoid response. Amazing.:jaw-dropp

Steve S.

[Gravy]

Dylan forgot to get permission from the Naudets to use their footage. Would it be too much to hope that he forgot to report all this income to the IRS?:D
They say they have a good accountant. I wonder what the results will be of the latest copyright hubbub, though. The Korean version of LC is now #3 on Google Video. Maybe Kim Jong Il has ordered all North Koreans to watch it.

[hellaeon]

hahaha sunzoo is leaning how to use traceroute and whois requests!

hahahaha comedy gold!

the lengths these guys go to...man, completely fabricate stuff towards some big event they wish was happening. Sorry LCers. Your just a bunch of dropkicks.

[Orphia Nay]

I really like that avery dylan (http://www.blogger.com/profile/26400104)character - he's doing some funny stuff commenting at Screw Loose Change. Wish I knew who he is so I could compliment him, though I don't want to blow his cover.

[gumboot]

They say they have a good accountant.


I'm pretty sure they said they had a good researcher too...

-Andrew

[Year Zero]

I really like that avery dylan (http://www.blogger.com/profile/26400104)character - he's doing some funny stuff commenting at Screw Loose Change. Wish I knew who he is so I could compliment him, though I don't want to blow his cover.


Ditto. I love the "Like, hey man, I'm just asking questions" style to the posts.

[DavidJames]

deadspace (govt shill, CIA agent? ;)) resurrected a thread about an email exchange between Michael Shermer and Killtown. In it Killtown says "I'm not a "theorist,"

Killtown is not a CT! He is the loose change chief kook and bottle washer

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6509

And whatever happened to johndoe? He usually has 80 posts by this time of the day.

[Legalduck]

This is why we get all these claims of imminent fascism in this country. It's not that the Truthers want to exaggerate Bush's supposed crimes, or minimize Hitler's (with the obvious exception of the Holocaust revisionists among them). It's about them; they want to be the noble & heroic resistance, and so they maximize the purported risks that they are taking by speaking out. That they know it's a bunch of nonsense is obvious; otherwise they wouldn't be "turned on" to know the government was watching them.

In the warped CT mind, its better to be on a death list than ignored. Its the same underlying feeling with fundamentalists. They tend to hate skeptics and atheists more than followers of other religions. Its better to have your beliefs hated than dismissed.

Imagine you're some CTer. You're fighting the fight for troothiness(tm), but the the big-NWO-multinational-illuminati-facist-omnipotent-the jews are behind it-world controlling juggernaut just ignores you. Must be crushing. Almost as curshing as when reality ignores all your bs theories :D Sometimes you just feel bad for CTers. The feeling usually starts after I finish laughing.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

deadspace (govt shill, CIA agent? ;)) resurrected a thread about an email exchange between Michael Shermer and Killtown. In it Killtown says "I'm not a "theorist,"

Killtown is not a CT! He is the loose change chief kook and bottle washer

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6509

And whatever happened to johndoe? He usually has 80 posts by this time of the day.

They just can not grasp the fact that "Questions are not evidence".

[Hutch]

Well, I am legal again over at LC (at least from my work IP). Got about 3-4 posts in this morning, we'll see how long I last.

[CptColumbo]

Here is Ben Chertoff's response to my e-mail about the Vanity Fair article.

ETA: I had apologized for bothering him with this crap again.

No worries about bothering me -- we saw that on Friday (in fact, that was the first I'd heard of it). It's good press for our book, however -- would
have been nice if they'd called me, though. They're only eight blocks away.

B

[DavidJames]

Here is Ben Chertoff's response to my e-mail about the Vanity Fair article.But he didn't deny it did he

[Harlequin]

And whatever happened to johndoe? He usually has 80 posts by this time of the day.
Obviously, he's flying today...

...or will claim to be. Look for him to say he's connecting tonight from a computer in some other city because he's "working".

[CptColumbo]

But he didn't deny it did he
He did. Check Gravy's guide for where in the first LC thread that is.
ETA: Found it. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102&page=63

[Brainster]

They just can not grasp the fact that "Questions are not evidence".

I love the fact that he responds to the point that thousands would have to have been involved by claiming the government could have done it with hundreds instead. It's much easier to keep an explosive conspiracy under wraps if only hundreds know about it instead of thousands.

[CptColumbo]

I love the fact that he responds to the point that thousands would have to have been involved by claiming the government could have done it with hundreds instead. It's much easier to keep an explosive conspiracy under wraps if only hundreds know about it instead of thousands.
I usually find things are done more efficiently in the private sector than in the public. If it took thousands to pull it off in the private, it would be millions in the public.