Loose Change - Part III

[Darat]

Part I can be found here:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102
Part II can be found here:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57424

[XXX]

Woo-hoo! First post in Loose Change part three! (besides the admin creation).

[brodski]

but loose change 3rd ed isn't even out yet! ;)

[Johnny Pixels]

but loose change 3rd ed isn't even out yet! ;)

Long may it rest in development hell.

[a_unique_person]

I want to see Loose Change 3D. With funny glasses.

[brodski]

I want to see Loose Change 3D. With funny glasses.
They had to scrap loos change 3d, they couldn't work out how to wear 3d glasses and tinfoil hats at the same time.

[Johnny Pixels]

They had to scrap loos change 3d, they couldn't work out how to wear 3d glasses and tinfoil hats at the same time.

Loos Change always makes me think of someone trying to find 20p for the toilets in Victoria Station.

[hellaeon]

Anything new that the saviours of our world have brought to our attention? DJ Lunacy been over to debunk gravy yet?

[aggle-rithm]

Anything new that the saviours of our world have brought to our attention? DJ Lunacy been over to debunk gravy yet?

Someone over there asked me if I had "coached" Gravy, based on an article I had written for Skeptic Report a few years ago. Very flattering, but...I told him it wasn't necessary, since the silliness was there for anyone to find.

[azazal]

Well found out something interesting Saturday. Was walking with the wife and the little one in the local park, and decided to go up to a glass case that was installed a few months ago. Been seeing it on and off for the past 2 months or so, but never took a close look. From a diatance it looked like there was a large log or something along those lines inside. Well turns out it's a support column from WTC 2 that was recoveredd in the aftermath of 9/11. It's about 6 feet long, maybe 18 inches across or so. Looking at the ends you can clearly see how the metal was twisted and torn, no sign of demo charge cut marks or thermite burn through. I will try to get some pics later this week. So looking forward to are next LC CTer claiming that the support beams were cut.

[Pardalis]

Nice to start fresh after Sentinel ruined the second thread with his unintelligible comments.

[CurtC]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=682&view=findpost&p=5433102

And remember the Sago mine disaster? The initial reports were that the miners were alive. If you heard the testimony of the guy who first reported that they found the miners, it was obvious that he'd been told in no uncertain terms to change his story. I think they WERE alive when they found them. I think they had discovered something, or had witnessed something that the company couldn't risk them talking about, and they let them die. I only recently realized this, and I'm going to be looking into it more. I'm going to try to find some geological reports of the area to see if I can come up with any anomalies.

I'm tempted to compile a list of all the conspiracies these kids think happened, and post the list at their forum. Maybe do a poll.

[The_Fire]

Oh please do.....Would make an intersting way of getting banned.....

[mrfreeze]

Well thats one way to explain why Sylvia Browne was wrong about the miners. "They were alive when I predicted that! But Big-Mining had them killed!"

Rule8'ing disgusting.

[Brainster]

Over at the Looser's Forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6179&view=findpost&p=5246597):

I'm still looking for the shocking post regarding the collusion of CIA, Greatful Dead, Charles Manson, SOS, etc. Someone help me out.

Okay, now that sounds like an interesting post. Anybody?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Over at the Looser's Forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6179&view=findpost&p=5246597):



Okay, now that sounds like an interesting post. Anybody?

I think that was a joke CT fowlsound put together, if memory serves.

[CptColumbo]

Someone find me a connection between:
George W. Bush
Italian Greyhounds
Jim Lovell
Ray Romano
The Flash
Metallica
and the Corliolus Effect.

And....GO!

[Belz...]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=682&view=findpost&p=5433102

I'm tempted to compile a list of all the conspiracies these kids think happened, and post the list at their forum. Maybe do a poll.

Ed-damn it! These guys seem to think that mistakes are impossible.

[The_Fire]

In regards of post 17:

Thats simple:
[CT thinking cap on]
The Flash, as in the cartoon character, is in reality speaking in codes, thus enabling George W. Bush to communicate with various Illuminati chapters at the same time all over the world. Same goes for Ray Romano's lines in "Everybody Loves Raymond". This particulary coorporation came about as Ray Romano are a member of the same species of lizards as both Jim Lovell and Bush not to mention the drummer, Lars Ulrich, from Metallica. The same code also presents itself if you play Metallicas tracks backwards and count the drumbeats. And don't tell me you haven't heard the satanic messages on those tracks! Metallica is, after all, the right hand of the Antichrist also known as George W. Bush.
These codes are centered arround a sinister plot to change the weatherpatterns of the world by using the local atmospheric changes of greyhoundraces at specific time and places to influence the Corliolus Effect. Italian Greyhounds are particulary good at this due to their aerodynamic shape and speed. Don't tell me you haven't noticed how the weather changes when they have one of those races! It's so obvious!

[/CT thinking cap off]

That was....way to easy....

[CptColumbo]

Why didn't I see it before? It's so obvious.

[Pardalis]

In regards of post 17:

Thats simple:
[CT thinking cap on]
The Flash, as in the cartoon character, is in reality speaking in codes, thus enabling George W. Bush to communicate with various Illuminati chapters at the same time all over the world. Same goes for Ray Romano's lines in "Everybody Loves Raymond". This particulary coorporation came about as Ray Romano are a member of the same species of lizards as both Jim Lovell and Bush not to mention the drummer, Lars Ulrich, from Metallica. The same code also presents itself if you play Metallicas tracks backwards and count the drumbeats. And don't tell me you haven't heard the satanic messages on those tracks! Metallica is, after all, the right hand of the Antichrist also known as George W. Bush.
These codes are centered arround a sinister plot to change the weatherpatterns of the world by using the local atmospheric changes of greyhoundraces at specific time and places to influence the Corliolus Effect. Italian Greyhounds are particulary good at this due to their aerodynamic shape and speed. Don't tell me you haven't noticed how the weather changes when they have one of those races! It's so obvious!

[/CT thinking cap off]

That was....way to easy....


Woah! I didn't even think someone would actually do it! Great job! ;)

[R.Mackey]

And remember the Sago mine disaster? The initial reports were that the miners were alive. If you heard the testimony of the guy who first reported that they found the miners, it was obvious that he'd been told in no uncertain terms to change his story. I think they WERE alive when they found them. I think they had discovered something, or had witnessed something that the company couldn't risk them talking about, and they let them die. I only recently realized this, and I'm going to be looking into it more. I'm going to try to find some geological reports of the area to see if I can come up with any anomalies.
Quaid! Start the reactor! Free Mars!

Typical rubbish. "It was obvious..." "he'd been told..." (beautiful leading use of passive voice there) "I think..." "I only recently realized this..."

However, I really feel sorry for those people. Mental illness is no laughing matter.

[JamesB]

Nice to start fresh after Sentinel ruined the second thread with his unintelligible comments.

I debunked him, then he disappeared.

[aggle-rithm]

I debunked him, then he disappeared.

How did you do that? That'd by like trying to herd cats.

[Pardalis]

I debunked him, then he disappeared.

What was there to debunk? Not to minimize your credit, but I still don't know what the hell he was talking about. ;)

[JamesB]

LOL, he did make a few intelligible points. They were all wrong, but at least comprehensible. You are correct though, the hardest part is not debunking, it is getting them to say something comprehensible in the first place.

[azazal]

How did you do that? That'd by like trying to herd cats.


You know, I used to work for EDS, and let met tell you, herding cats is a real pain :D

[Pardalis]

LOL, he did make a few intelligible points. They were all wrong, but at least comprehensible. You are correct though, the hardest part is not debunking, it is getting them to say something comprehensible in the first place.

Your capacity to keep up with his comments and sort through them in a conversation is all to your credit! :D

[Gravy]

Someone over there asked me if I had "coached" Gravy, based on an article I had written for Skeptic Report a few years ago. Very flattering, but...I told him it wasn't necessary, since the silliness was there for anyone to find.

I'm sure you'd be a great coach, aggle. I have been righting wrongs for quite some time on my own, though.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/87904496f3d084a08.jpg

[Brainster]

Perhaps it was hitting a little too close to home? Killtown and Holmgren (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6260&view=findpost&p=5432490) were arguing that many of the eyewitness accounts of those who saw the second plane hit the WTC weren't really eyewitnesses, so Merc the Jerk (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6260&view=findpost&p=5432619) assembled a bunch of eyewitness accounts.

Of course, that's getting a little too close to the argument we raise against the Pentagon nonsense; that there are plenty of eyewitnesses who saw an airliner hit the Pentagon, so Dylan closed the thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6260&view=findpost&p=5434079).

[Gravy]

Dylan Shuts Down "No Planes" Thread
Well, bless his tiny brain, that is truly hilarious. The idea that no planes hit the WTC is absurd, but the idea that no plane hit the Pentagon is the "truth." Yep. Makes perfect sense.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Oh gawd...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2928756561478705121

JFK II is an incredible documentary film that totally destroys any notion of Lee Harvey Oswald being responsible for the murder of ... all » President John F. Kennedy. Packed with original and new footage, JFK II provides strong clues as to who was really behind the assassination.

This examination of the ecidence is meticulous ans well-documented. JFK II ia a criminal indictment of George Herbert Walker Bush and establishws beyond a reasonable doubt his guilt as a supervisor in the conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy.

EDIT: Spelling errors are unchanged from the included synopsis on google video.

[sat556]

I have some questions, hope you all don't mind. I know the Loosers keep on with them.

Might I ask what the 'free-fall' thing is all about? Is this what happens during a controlled demolition?

Also, why is christophera banging on about this concrete core? What has that got to do with anything?

Finally, in this:

http://mouv4x8.club.fr/11Sept01/A0069b_3_towerexplo1_explosion_below.jpg

What is that poking through the top of the cloud of dust?

[Gravy]

I have some questions, hope you all don't mind. I know the Loosers keep on with them.

Might I ask what the 'free-fall' thing is all about? Is this what happens during a controlled demolition?

Also, why is christophera banging on about this concrete core? What has that got to do with anything?

Finally, in this:

http://mouv4x8.club.fr/11Sept01/A0069b_3_towerexplo1_explosion_below.jpg

What is that poking through the top of the cloud of dust?

The CTs contend that the 3 WTC buildings fell "too fast," that is, at or near the speed they would have fallen if nothing resisted their fall. Some even claim that the towers fell as fast as they would in a vacuum, i.e. true free fall. The NIST report gives CTs a little ammunition because it refers to the towers as falling at "near" free fall speed. But then NIST goes on to say that the DIFFERENCE in the actual collapse speed and free fall is accounted for by the resistance providecd by the building's structure (and by air). The CTs leave that part out. If you're talking about 2 or 3 seconds' difference, that's 20 or 30% slower than free fall, which the folks with slide rules say is within the expected range. Now, do buildings that undergo "CD" fall at "free fall" speed? No. Controlled demolitions are designed to weaken certain supporting members so that gravity can do its work, not to simulaneously remove every supporting member in the structure.

The concrete core thing is just a fantasy dreamed up by Christophera and a few others. It might have made a difference in how long the towers survived if they had concrete cores, but they didn't.

That photo shows material being ejected from the 41/42 floor mechanical levels as the building collapses. It's likely that material had an easier exit on the mechanical floors, since they had vents to the exterior.

ETA: Oh, you asked what's poking through the TOP of the dust cloud. Well, there's a piece of exterior wall sticking out near the top center of the cloud. Is that what you mean?

[sat556]

Some even claim that the towers fell as fast as they would in a vacuum, i.e. true free fall.

Now that's what I was thinking of. I couldn't figure for the life of me how even a CT could be claiming that. But apparently... :boggled:

ETA: Oh, you asked what's poking through the TOP of the dust cloud. Well, there's a piece of exterior wall sticking out near the top center of the cloud. Is that what you mean?

Ah yes, it is what I meant, and I can see it now. I was thinking it might be that spire thing.

Ta :)

[Gravy]

Now that's what I was thinking of. I couldn't figure for the life of me how even a CT could be claiming that. But apparently... :boggled:
Not long ago quite a few of them were using the phrase "faster than free fall," but that seems to have died down.

Ah yes, it is what I meant, and I can see it now. I was thinking it might be that spire thing.
Same idea. The "spire" was a tall piece of the north tower wall that survived for a few seconds. I'm always impressed by how much of the lower wall structure remained standing. That's a great example of how the tower walls differed from a traditional curtain-wall skyscraper.

[DanKirby]

And remember the Sago mine disaster? The initial reports were that the miners were alive. If you heard the testimony of the guy who first reported that they found the miners, it was obvious that he'd been told in no uncertain terms to change his story. I think they WERE alive when they found them. I think they had discovered something, or had witnessed something that the company couldn't risk them talking about, and they let them die. I only recently realized this, and I'm going to be looking into it more. I'm going to try to find some geological reports of the area to see if I can come up with any anomalies.

Obviously the miners had stumbled onto a secret underground government complex, where they're busy developing all of their holographic planes, faster-than-freefall gravity generators, and mind-controlling chemtrail dispensers.

[delphi_ote]

Two splits?! What have I done!?

[delphi_ote]

Ed-damn it! These guys seem to think that mistakes are impossible.
Unless they're made by the Bush administration.

[Mr. Skinny]

Two splits?! What have I done!?
Well, you certainly created one of the longer thread(s) in forum history.

also,

- created a quasi-battleground between the JREF and Loose Change forums. In the process you created the JREF Ninja Wave.

- helped educate quite a few people as to the arguments on both sides of the discussion.

- allowed me to add "government shill" to my list of titles.

- given everyone a few pauses for serious thought (and more than a few chuckles)

All in all, it's a great thread. I just wish the DJLegacy/Gravy thread had taken off. That would have been a good read as well.

[gumboot]

A quick question for the knowledgable...

This is regarding the discovered passport that CTers think is so important and the FBI don't...

Pre Sept 2001, what identification was required to board a domestic flight in the USA? And if a passport was not required, how common was it for people to carry their passport around anyway?

I'm thinking the image of someone off to the airport to go overseas, desperately looking for their passport because they haven't seen it in six months or a year...

Even some rough info/speculation on this would be nice. :)

[Brainster]

Not long ago quite a few of them were using the phrase "faster than free fall," but that seems to have died down.

Same idea. The "spire" was a tall piece of the north tower wall that survived for a few seconds. I'm always impressed by how much of the lower wall structure remained standing. That's a great example of how the tower walls differed from a traditional curtain-wall skyscraper.

We got a guy posting that "faster than free fall" nonsense the other day. When I pointed out that would require some external force pushing down on the building, he explained that since it was an implosion, that meant there was a vaccuum, which pulled the building down.

Apparently he's not aware that "implosion" when it comes to CD is a marketing term, not a scientific one.:eye-poppi

[Gravy]

Two splits?! What have I done!?
You have done me great injury, sir! I demand satisfaction!

[Gravy]

A quick question for the knowledgable...

This is regarding the discovered passport that CTers think is so important and the FBI don't...

Pre Sept 2001, what identification was required to board a domestic flight in the USA? And if a passport was not required, how common was it for people to carry their passport around anyway?

I'm thinking the image of someone off to the airport to go overseas, desperately looking for their passport because they haven't seen it in six months or a year...

Even some rough info/speculation on this would be nice. :)
I think it would be quite sensible for the hijackers to bring their passports along. As long as their papers were in order, why not carry all the ID they've got? Redundancy doesn't hurt.

I used my passport as ID for almost a year when I lost my driver license and was too lazy to replace it (I live in NYC and don't drive much).

Edited to add: How rude of me. Welcome, Gumboot!

[delphi_ote]

Well, you certainly created one of the longer thread(s) in forum history.

also,

- created a quasi-battleground between the JREF and Loose Change forums. In the process you created the JREF Ninja Wave.

- helped educate quite a few people as to the arguments on both sides of the discussion.

- allowed me to add "government shill" to my list of titles.

- given everyone a few pauses for serious thought (and more than a few chuckles)

All in all, it's a great thread. I just wish the DJLegacy/Gravy thread had taken off. That would have been a good read as well.
You're right. What people like Gravy have done in response to this thread has really been amazing. I couldn't have asked for a better response. You guys are great.

[Brainster]

A quick question for the knowledgable...

This is regarding the discovered passport that CTers think is so important and the FBI don't...

Pre Sept 2001, what identification was required to board a domestic flight in the USA? And if a passport was not required, how common was it for people to carry their passport around anyway?

I'm thinking the image of someone off to the airport to go overseas, desperately looking for their passport because they haven't seen it in six months or a year...

Even some rough info/speculation on this would be nice. :)

You did not have to show any identification. Around 1992 I lost my wallet while visiting New Jersey and the only reason I was a little nervous was that it was a free ticket I'd gotten from a frequent flier program and they were more likely to ask to confirm ID on those. But I explained the situation to the gal at the counter and she just said not to worry about it.

The odds of somebody carrying around their passport are indeed slim to none if they are US citizens used to staying inside the country. Of course that does not apply to Al Suqami.

[gumboot]

In 2001 I used my passport as ID for almost a year when I lost my driver license and was too lazy to replace it (I live in NYC and don't drive much).

Thanks, so you didn't necessarily need your passport right? In which case I'm going to assume most people probably didn't use it (why carry extra ID if you've got something else?)

So here's the thing...

Anyone in a clandestine scenario will always carry the "ID" that justifies their presence. If you're a spy in Russia, you make sure your "russian" passport is on you. These terrorists are "spies" as much as any agency operative. So it seems *more* likely a terrorist would have their passport on them somewhere than a regular civilian.

Admittedly this is all speculation, but it seems to make sense.

The passport found was for an alleged pilot hijacker, so he was at the front of the plane. Other reports I have read revealed the hands of one of the airline pilots (still bound in wire) were found on the roof of a building several blocks away.

All seems to make sense to me.

[Hutch]

Regarding the passport thing, I lived overseas (United Arab Emirates) for nearly 4 years and I was in the habit of keeping my passport in my briefcase and taking it to work and whenever I travelled outside Abu Dhabi. Yeah, I had a UAE Drivers' license and ID Card, but having a passport around always made me feel a bit more comfortable. I'm not too surprised that these guys would have had it with them, especially when travelling..

As for finding it, I speculate (hey, if LC can mutter darkly about our finding it I can think about a logical reason) that perhaps it was left outside of the clothing in the cockpit and thus was more likely to be flung away from the crash. No way to prove it, but it makes more sense than a "MIB" planting it in the middle of the devastation.

[gumboot]

No way to prove it, but it makes more sense than a "MIB" planting it in the middle of the devastation.


Given the detective's description of the civilian that gave him the passport (male, 30's, in a suit) I'm amazed they haven't claimed it was a CIA agent that gave it to him. I mean yeeeeesh. Do we have to do their work for them?

I bet the suit was black too...

:)

-Andrew

[Polaris]

Someone find me a connection between:
George W. Bush
Italian Greyhounds
Jim Lovell
Ray Romano
The Flash
Metallica
and the Corliolus Effect.

And....GO!

You just created one - now they all exist on a thread on the JREF forum.

[Gravy]

Given the detective's description of the civilian that gave him the passport (male, 30's, in a suit) I'm amazed they haven't claimed it was a CIA agent that gave it to him. I mean yeeeeesh. Do we have to do their work for them?

I bet the suit was black too...

:)

-Andrew
...And I haven't seen any of them mention the fact that the WTC is just up the street from the building that is used as the HQ in "Men in Black" (It's actually a ventilation building for the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel).

At least one CT does mention MIBs: crackpot Karl Schwarz
In 1989 - there were plans to erect scaffolding and disassemble the WTC towers and rebuild them. Cost projection was around $5.6 billion. One of the architects shows up to work one day and the MIB's were there - had confiscated all of the plans, specs, details, etc for WTC. They even confiscated their office cubicles and had tape on the floor outlining where they went.
Love it.

[60hzxtl]

The CTs contend that the 3 WTC buildings fell "too fast," that is, at or near the speed they would have fallen if nothing resisted their fall. Some even claim that the towers fell as fast as they would in a vacuum, i.e. true free fall. The NIST report gives CTs a little ammunition because it refers to the towers as falling at "near" free fall speed. But then NIST goes on to say that the DIFFERENCE in the actual collapse speed and free fall is accounted for by the resistance providecd by the building's structure (and by air). The CTs leave that part out. If you're talking about 2 or 3 seconds' difference, that's 20 or 30% slower than free fall, which the folks with slide rules say is within the expected range. Now, do buildings that undergo "CD" fall at "free fall" speed?


And Freefall Speed is NOT to be confused with Terminal Velocity.

Terminal Velocity is a lot more fun.

[gumboot]

And Freefall Speed is NOT to be confused with Terminal Velocity.

Terminal Velocity is a lot more fun.


One thing I haven't heard explained in terms of CT theory. Their incredible grip on physics demonstrates that the speed the building collapsed at defies the laws of physics, therefore it couldn't be a collapse. It had to be CD. Since when did CD become a loophole for following the laws of physics?

:confused:

[hellaeon]

Gumboot, the trick is not to understand this stuff, just ask questions...

[RandFan]

You're right. What people like Gravy have done in response to this thread has really been amazing. I couldn't have asked for a better response. You guys are great. My hats off to you guys and especially to Gravy.

[R.Mackey]

Anyone in a clandestine scenario will always carry the "ID" that justifies their presence. If you're a spy in Russia, you make sure your "russian" passport is on you. These terrorists are "spies" as much as any agency operative. So it seems *more* likely a terrorist would have their passport on them somewhere than a regular civilian.
Probably true, for certain values of "ordinary citizen." I'm in the habit of carrying my passport around because I work with government agencies and defense contractors, and I'd rather show them my passport than give out my Social Security number to every visitor's desk that asks for it. Unusual, yes, but not that rare.

In any case, I'm not at all surprised that the terrorists were carrying their passports. I'd expect them to plan for snags, and carry anything that would help them get through unexpected scrutiny and untimely questions. At the same time, let's not jail people for carrying too much ID, please. :o

[WildCat]

You're right. What people like Gravy have done in response to this thread has really been amazing. I couldn't have asked for a better response. You guys are great.
I' just in awe of what Gravy has done here. Joined 3 months ago, 1130 posts and almost single-handedly destroyed whatever credibility the Loose Change movie had to the point only the true zealots cling to that thoroughly debunked piece of trash.

MikeW, you have also done a fantastic job w/ that 911 Myths site, it has been a great resource to me and I'm glad to see you here at the JREF boards.

Oops! Almost forgot Brainster and MarkyX, you two also do great work!

And delphi, thanks for getting the ball rolling!

[CurtC]

Around 1992 I lost my wallet while visiting New Jersey and the only reason I was a little nervous was that it was a free ticket I'd gotten from a frequent flier program and they were more likely to ask to confirm ID on those. But I explained the situation to the gal at the counter and she just said not to worry about it.

The odds of somebody carrying around their passport are indeed slim to none if they are US citizens used to staying inside the country.For 1992, I believe that, but I thought that in the two or three years leading up to 2001, they did require positive ID such as a drivers license.

Also, I've had my passport in my briefcase since I got it in 1994. I just have always left it there, and it would be with me whenever I travel, which is almost all domestic. It's two years expired now, but still in the same spot in my briefcase.

[RandFan]

I' just in awe of what Gravy has done here. Joined 3 months ago, 1130 posts and almost single-handedly destroyed whatever credibility the Loose Change movie had to the point only the true zealots cling to that thoroughly debunked piece of trash.

MikeW, you have also done a fantastic job w/ that 911 Myths site, it has been a great resource to me and I'm glad to see you here at the JREF boards.

Oops! Almost forgot Brainster and MarkyX, you two also do great work!

And delphi, thanks for getting the ball rolling! Include Chipmunk in that list.

[TjW]

Given the detective's description of the civilian that gave him the passport (male, 30's, in a suit) I'm amazed they haven't claimed it was a CIA agent that gave it to him. I mean yeeeeesh. Do we have to do their work for them?

I bet the suit was black too...

:)

-Andrew


Sheesh, I mean, what are the odds of finding a guy in Manhattan in his thirties who wears a suit? Like that could happen.

[gumboot]

Sheesh, I mean, what are the odds of finding a guy in Manhattan in his thirties who wears a suit? Like that could happen.

Wait... detectives don't wear uniforms.

Ah hah! That proves it's a plant. Only a CIA agent (or maybe MiB - I'm still hedging a black suit) would know he was a detective!

It's all so clear! Quick, new investigation! Call the FBI. Wait. No. They're in on it. Um. The NYPD. No, they're in on it too.

Hmmm. Who's gonna investigate?

I know! The only people shown to really care about the victims, who aren't bought out by the illuminati!

Let the makers of LC be the prosecution!

:jaw-dropp

[Brainster]

I' just in awe of what Gravy has done here. Joined 3 months ago, 1130 posts and almost single-handedly destroyed whatever credibility the Loose Change movie had to the point only the true zealots cling to that thoroughly debunked piece of trash.

MikeW, you have also done a fantastic job w/ that 911 Myths site, it has been a great resource to me and I'm glad to see you here at the JREF boards.

Oops! Almost forgot Brainster and MarkyX, you two also do great work!

And delphi, thanks for getting the ball rolling!

Thanks to all here who've worked on this, especially Gravy, Markyx and my blogging partner, James B. The work that has been done here and elsewhere will be a reference tool for generations, long after Dylan Avery has moved on to directing WWF videos.

[NobbyNobbs]

I think the terrorists would keep their passports with them because, well, where else would they leave them? In a hotel room, for the authorities to find afterwards, making the investigation easier? Or on their person, where more than likely they will be burnt/lost/destroyed? Makes sense to me.


Also, in point of fact, "freefall" is not a speed. When you are in freefall, you are under acceleration. Sorry to be so picky.


On second thought....when you reach terminal velocity, are you still in freefall? I'll have to think about that one....

[gumboot]

I think the terrorists would keep their passports with them because, well, where else would they leave them? In a hotel room, for the authorities to find afterwards, making the investigation easier? Or on their person, where more than likely they will be burnt/lost/destroyed? Makes sense to me.


Also, in point of fact, "freefall" is not a speed. When you are in freefall, you are under acceleration. Sorry to be so picky.


On second thought....when you reach terminal velocity, are you still in freefall? I'll have to think about that one....


Surely free-fall is the rate of acceleration under gravity, in a vacuum isn't it? So under free-fall you could not reach terminal velocity (that being the speed at which resistance equals rate of acceleration, resulting in a constant speed from then on). Under free-fall conditions (no resistance) a body would simply continue to accelerate until some other force stopped its movement.

-Andrew

[Anders W. Bonde]

(that being the speed at which resistance equals rate of acceleration, resulting in a constant speed from then on) is the definition of terminal velocity.

It happens in a gravity field, where, in a vacuum, acceleration would remain constant (assuming the observed body has orders of magnitude less mass than the center of gravity shared with whatever body it is accelerating toward) because wind resistance increases at the square of the velocity. If there were no gravity, and hence no acceleration, the object would eventually stop due to friction (drag) - like a car running out a road normal to the gravitational pull.

[Belz...]

Oh gawd...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2928756561478705121

JFK II is an incredible documentary film that totally destroys any notion of Lee Harvey Oswald being responsible for the murder of ... all » President John F. Kennedy. Packed with original and new footage, JFK II provides strong clues as to who was really behind the assassination.

This examination of the ecidence is meticulous ans well-documented. JFK II ia a criminal indictment of George Herbert Walker Bush and establishws beyond a reasonable doubt his guilt as a supervisor in the conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy.

EDIT: Spelling errors are unchanged from the included synopsis on google video.

Holy mother of...

[Belz...]

Unless they're made by the Bush administration.

Yeah. The Gummint can make mistake while covering up their perfect conspiracy, just enough so that the CTs can pick up the clues and get to work at... er... whining.

Two splits?! What have I done!?

Shame on you, Delphi.

[chipmunk stew]

Include Chipmunk in that list.Thanks, but at best I'm a mascot next to these star players. Maybe a male cheerleader. A rodeo clown? I know! I'm one of those guys who teases the bull and gets him all pissed off and ready to fight before the bullfighter enters the ring. An important role, perhaps, but nobody will remember the guy's name.

[MarkyX]

I' just in awe of what Gravy has done here. Joined 3 months ago, 1130 posts and almost single-handedly destroyed whatever credibility the Loose Change movie had to the point only the true zealots cling to that thoroughly debunked piece of trash.

MikeW, you have also done a fantastic job w/ that 911 Myths site, it has been a great resource to me and I'm glad to see you here at the JREF boards.

Oops! Almost forgot Brainster and MarkyX, you two also do great work!

And delphi, thanks for getting the ball rolling!

I will only be happy when an ex-fan of Loose Change sends me an image (or better yet, a movie) of a broken Loose Change DVD.

[aggle-rithm]

Holy mother of...

JFK and GHW Bush are both subjects in this sentence. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!!

[aggle-rithm]

I made the mistake of starting a topic about solipsism in the Loose Change forum.

What was I thinking? May as well discuss electronics with primitive Bushman tribes.

[rikzilla]

I made the mistake of starting a topic about solipsism in the Loose Change forum.

What was I thinking? May as well discuss electronics with primitive Bushman tribes.


LOL!

After my short but memorable foray into lolapa-looserland I equated the experience to attempting to teach my cat calculus.

Funny thing is...I think the cat would at least be receptive....

-z

[gumboot]

Awesome work guys. I played LC2E to my girlfriend, with no prior comments on my part, then proceeded to apply the Viewer's Guide and my own discoveries to her questions and queries. Safe to say so far I've addressed only the aircraft phone calls, the pentagon crash, and the "explosions" heard in the towers. She is already thoroughly convinced the LCers have no idea what they're talking about.

I thought I had a pretty good grip on the whole thing, but after looking at some of the work you folks have done my awareness of the crazy claims, how they came about, and the reality, is infinately better. Thanks a billion!

I'm waiting for a CTer to explain why a company that supposedly had half the world's gold reserve under WTC5 hasn't complained that all by 230 million is missing... or maybe they were in on the ridiculous plot to... um... steal their own gold?

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Holy mother of...
Yes, they mention "JFK II" a couple of times in their interviews. Bermas calls it the "creme de la creme" of JFK videos.

[pgwenthold]

For 1992, I believe that, but I thought that in the two or three years leading up to 2001, they did require positive ID such as a drivers license.

The 911 Commission report states that one of the highjackers in fact did not have photo ID. The procedure in that case was to keep the checked baggage off the plane until it was confirmed that the passenger was aboard. I guess the idea is that they won't get on board if they are checking a bomb.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I made the mistake of starting a topic about solipsism in the Loose Change forum.

What was I thinking? May as well discuss electronics with primitive Bushman tribes.

Elicit a bought of "The Gods Must Be Crazy" did we?

[Regnad Kcin]

Yes, they mention "JFK II" a couple of times in their interviews. Bermas calls it the "creme de la creme" of JFK videos.And here I figured what with this new 9/11 CT drawing the loons, the old boy was finally going to get to rest in peace.

[Gravy]

And here I figured what with this new 9/11 CT drawing the loons, the old boy was finally going to get to rest in peace.
No. In fact, in the extras of LC2E at Ground Zero, there's a random loon on camera saying "The same people who killed JFK did this." Jim Fetzer, who heads "911 Scholars for Truth" with Steven E. Jones, is primarily a JFK conspiracy theorist. He's often on radio shows about it.

[60hzxtl]

I think the terrorists would keep their passports with them because, well, where else would they leave them? In a hotel room, for the authorities to find afterwards, making the investigation easier? Or on their person, where more than likely they will be burnt/lost/destroyed? Makes sense to me.


Also, in point of fact, "freefall" is not a speed. When you are in freefall, you are under acceleration. Sorry to be so picky.


On second thought....when you reach terminal velocity, are you still in freefall? I'll have to think about that one....

I think we are reading too much into things about the passport.

The hijackers are Foreign Nationals and are REQUIRED to carry their passports with them while in the USA. Same as you and me, (if you are yankee american) by strict reading of the rules, you are required to carry you passport while in Jolly old England, Italy, or China.

Not that anyone has asked to see your papers on the streets of Manchester, or Milan, or Xian, but in theory, you are supposed to be carrying your passport.

Same thing here in the USA - the hijackers (by the rules) are supposed to be carrying their passports at all time. They wouldn't want their whole plot to be thwarted, because one of these swine forgot a simple thing like a passport.

Now, on the freefall thing - we are talking about freefall and Terminal velocity in real world, not lab conditions. The quote is from Sport Parachuting by Russ Gunby, pg 63:

"Sooner or later the speed and friction will balance each other and when the balance of these two forces is reached, the falling object will then have reached a steady falling speed which is called terminal velocity. In atmosphere this takes about 12 seconds and is approximately 176 feet mer second or 120 miles per house. Once terminal velocity is reached, an object will not fall any faster."


Lets not read things that aren't there, or get bogged down by the CTer's in ability to understand science, or use the terms properly.

[Regnad Kcin]

No. In fact, in the extras of LC2E at Ground Zero, there's a random loon on camera saying "The same people who killed JFK did this." Jim Fetzer, who heads "911 Scholars for Truth" with Steven E. Jones, is primarily a JFK conspiracy theorist. He's often on radio shows about it.Which, as I implied, explains a lot.

[60hzxtl]

Just a prediction

Sentinel will be back today, Tues.?

Main branch of the NYP Library is closed on Monday.

I don't claim to be psychic, just analytical.

[CptColumbo]

For fans of "free fall":

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo_15_feather_drop.html

the only force at work here is gravity.

If you believe that we went to the moon that is.

[60hzxtl]

For fans of "free fall":

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo_15_feather_drop.html

the only force at work here is gravity.

If you believe that we went to the moon that is.


A new meaning to the phrase "Dropping the Hammer"

[CptColumbo]

It even has a little movie to go with it. To the CT crowd, for some reason, that is better than any book learnin'.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

A new meaning to the phrase "Dropping the Hammer"

"It's time to drop the hammer, and dispense some indiscriminate justice!"

[kevin]

A quick question for the knowledgable...

This is regarding the discovered passport that CTers think is so important and the FBI don't...

Pre Sept 2001, what identification was required to board a domestic flight in the USA? And if a passport was not required, how common was it for people to carry their passport around anyway?

I'm thinking the image of someone off to the airport to go overseas, desperately looking for their passport because they haven't seen it in six months or a year...

Even some rough info/speculation on this would be nice. :)

I flew on 9/10/2001 (and 9/17/2001). I presented a photo drivers license to the people at the gateway to the plane (not at the x-ray security checkpoint like today). The id was presented to the airline people, there were no dedicated security people.

Note that the hijackers had illegally obtained driver's licenses. They should leave behind their passports since they wouldn't match the driver's licenses.

Additionally, like I did on 9/10/2001, the hijackers showed up at the last minute and basically pushed the airline people to let them on. The airline people checking ID's as you got on were mainly concerned with people flying with tickets in their name -- not preventing hijackings. IDs in the last seconds of boarding got barely a glance.

Finally, when on a sucide mission are you really concerned if passport is later found? If you work for a group that plans on taking credit for the disaster don't you want to be easy to be proven who did it?

Note that identification in no way increases security and that it is possible today to fly without identification at all (if you're willing to submit to a more through search.)

[The_Fire]

Maybe compiling a list of various airport security measurments before and after 9/11 would be a good point at this point. That way it can be adressed properly in future discussions.

[60hzxtl]

Again, the hijackers are foreigners - they are SUPPOSED to be carrying their passports.

[gumboot]

Thanks for all the info people. :)

It seems to be pretty much as I suspected.

-Andrew

[CptColumbo]

Again, the hijackers are foreigners - they are SUPPOSED to be carrying their passports.
Maybe at JFK, but in MPLS at the time for a domestic flight all you needed was a driver's license or gov't issued picture ID.

[60hzxtl]

Maybe at JFK, but in MPLS at the time for a domestic flight all you needed was a driver's license or gov't issued picture ID.

Not as airport id - just out on the street, by strict definition of the passport - and your visa. In your possesion is the rule.

[MikeW]

Maybe at JFK, but in MPLS at the time for a domestic flight all you needed was a driver's license or gov't issued picture ID.
What if there was an emergency change of plan and they had to leave the country, though? A bit awkward if you don't have your passport with you.

[R.Mackey]

Now, on the freefall thing - we are talking about freefall and Terminal velocity in real world, not lab conditions. The quote is from Sport Parachuting by Russ Gunby, pg 63:

"Sooner or later the speed and friction will balance each other and when the balance of these two forces is reached, the falling object will then have reached a steady falling speed which is called terminal velocity. In atmosphere this takes about 12 seconds and is approximately 176 feet [p]er second or 120 miles per hou[r]. Once terminal velocity is reached, an object will not fall any faster."
Freefall vs. terminal velocity aren't entirely relevant with respect to the WTC collapses to begin with. Couple of points:

1. Terminal velocity is the speed at which gravitational force and drag balance. The speed depends on object density, size, and aspect, often approximated as "ballistic coefficient." A bowling ball has much higher terminal velocity than a feather. ~120 MPH is about right for a skydiver in proper position, it goes up considerably if you're in a head-down position. Steel girders are probably faster.

2. You can't really treat the WTC towers with terminal velocity anyway, because they aren't falling in a freestream of air. They're smacking into lower floors and into the ground. There's some slight drag at the edges, but there is no static body of air that the upper floors have to force their way through. Instead they're forcing their way through the lower floors... Those floors contained air, and probably were momentarily pressurized as the upper floors came through the ceiling, until windows shattered like a glass balloon (perhaps creating visual events that CT morons label as "squibs"). In any case, there is structural resistance to the collapse, as treated by Greening and others, but there is no steady drag force so terminal velocity is not the correct concept for modeling purposes.

In summary, nothing unexpected happened.

[60hzxtl]

Freefall vs. terminal velocity aren't entirely relevant with respect to the WTC collapses to begin with. .


Exactly, but when Dylan intones "Freefall" the cter's go ooooooohhhhh, as if it were important, my point is that they don't know what it means. The words mean nothing when he uses them, but it rings in their empty heads.

(And terminal is a lot more fun!)

[aggle-rithm]

No. In fact, in the extras of LC2E at Ground Zero, there's a random loon on camera saying "The same people who killed JFK did this."

So, 911 was perpetrated by a bunch of old guys in their 70's and 80's?

Those sly devils! Here we think they're playing shuffleboard or feeding squirrels, when they've really been plotting their next nefarious scheme!

[pgwenthold]

Again, the hijackers are foreigners - they are SUPPOSED to be carrying their passports.

I guess I don't know even what this whole passport issue is about, but let me state again for those who missed it above, it is known that one of the hijackers did not have a photo ID when he checked in. He was flagged for extra security, which means that his checked baggage was held off the aircraft until it was confirmed that he boarded.

This is all in the 911-Commission report. You folks know how to get there better than I do (heck, I just followed one of all y'all's links)

[Bronze Dog]

Actually, I heard it was G.W. Bush who planned out the whole nationwide JFK assassination conspiracy thing when he was 17 or so.

[dubfan]

I guess I don't know even what this whole passport issue is about, but let me state again for those who missed it above, it is known that one of the hijackers did not have a photo ID when he checked in. He was flagged for extra security, which means that his checked baggage was held off the aircraft until it was confirmed that he boarded.

This is all in the 911-Commission report. You folks know how to get there better than I do (heck, I just followed one of all y'all's links)

A hijacker's passport was found in the debris from the crash outside one of the WTC towers. A passer-by picked it up and gave it to a NYPD officer (IIRC). CTs don't believe that a passport could've survived the impact in readable condition and imply that it was planted by the passer-by (whose identity is unknown).

[Class]

Back in part II, I posted a link to a Loose Change forum thread about 911 Eyewitness being played to Japanese Parliamentarians. They said that they were going to reconsider funding the US. I have a bad feeling that the video being played to Parliamentarians and this: today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-06-20T043012Z_01_T363480_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ-JAPAN.xml
are related.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well, it was just a matter of time. There are now people claiming that Al-Zarqawi is not dead http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/20-06-2006/82243-Zarqawi-0

[Sentinel]

Hey James B,


You debunked Me? when ?


You jerkoffs still havent answered the question as to how long the patriot act is (number of pages) and how long it was waiting for the false flag operation for passage.


When you do that and can answer it with childish name calling and conjecture then you can claim victory, until then you're a real clown

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"



Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hey James B,


You debunked Me? when ?


You jerkoffs still havent answered the question as to how long the patriot act is (number of pages) and how long it was waiting for the false flag operation for passage.


When you do that and can answer it with childish name calling and conjecture then you can claim victory, until then you're a real clown

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"



Sentinel

And you still can't put together a coherent post. Your point?

[Sentinel]

Or slander or petty insults.


Its obvious you can't answer the valid question.


So you must be a shill


Have a nice day


Sentinel

[Sentinel]

Whats your point?


You obviously act like got a problem so PM me and lets have a say about it, OK


I'm tired of people who think they have a clue about anything and tehn want having nothing but insults against people who have questions about 9-11.


You're an ass and I hope you going to do something about child.



Sentinel

[Sentinel]

Was at drill





Sentinel

[Hutch]

Just a prediction

Sentinel will be back today, Tues.?

Main branch of the NYP Library is closed on Monday.

I don't claim to be psychic, just analytical.


Give hat man a Ceegar...but not a million bucks...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Or slander

Nope, http://m-w.com/dictionary/slander, didn't "say" anything. And if you meant libel, http://m-w.com/dictionary/libel, good luck proving it in court.


or petty insults.

Just stating the obvious.


Its obvious you can't answer the valid question.

What's obvious is, I can't tell what the hell you're talking about.


So you must be a shill

Nope, http://m-w.com/dictionary/shill, I'm not a spokesperson for anyone.


Have a nice day

Go pound sand.


Sentinel

AW

[Bronze Dog]

Sorry. The "shill" variation of the Chewbacca Defense doesn't work, here. (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/05/doggerel-3-youre-just-insert-evil.html)

[Brainster]

Anybody manage to watch this film (http://www.wkjo.com) all the way through? I got about 15 minutes into it and felt a migraine coming on from all the shouting.

It seems quite a bit like I imagine Dylan's film would have been if he'd kept to the original concept of a "fictional" drama (as compared to the fictional documentary that he did make).

[Sentinel]

We don't need court,


We can handle it on the streets.


The peoples court.



You're still a shill, dogpoop



Sentinel

[Sentinel]

I don't post for anyone but, it does need to be looked into.


Why did he resign after 31 years as Chief Terror investigator for NY.


If anyone really wants to know Ask the FBI at newyork@fbi.gov and see what they say about it.



Remeber the lives we lost when we had our heads in the Sand, dogpoop.




"Hero to Zero"



Sentinel

[JamesB]

Hey, if it is in Pravda it must be true!

I blogged on a similar story last week.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/coup-on-capitol-hill.html

You can't get anything past the "scholars" for 9/11 "truth"!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

We don't need court,


We can handle it on the streets.


The peoples court.



You're still a shill, dogpoop



Sentinel

So, you're not interested in The Rule of Law, State and/or Federal Constitutionality, or individual rights. You just want things "your" way and you'll do whatever it takes to make it so. I'm tellin' ya, Oswald would've loved ya.

[dubfan]

Anybody manage to watch this film (http://www.wkjo.com) all the way through? I got about 15 minutes into it and felt a migraine coming on from all the shouting.


FIFTEEN MINUTES? I didn't make it past the first 15 seconds. That initial statement is a complete fabrication.

Btw, is the bald guy supposed to be O'Neill?

ETA: by initial statement, I mean the initial statement of the film, that the US "gave birth" to Islamic radicalism, etc. etc.

[Darat]

Please remember "attack the argument not the Member".

[JamesB]

Sentinel, you can find it here.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1708909#post1708909

I am eagerly awaiting your erudite response, full of logic and factual support...

[Sentinel]

The question on the Patriot Act?

The question why the Former Taliban spokesman is attending Yale University?



Sentinel

[Sentinel]

OMG !!



You don't remember that there was a police officer who saw oswald in the Book Depository Cafe at the time of the initial search at ground level ?


Write and you didn't notice the SS Agent Greer turn around and point the shiny 45 and fire in close proximity to the governor who had to duck when the shot was fired? Didn't you hear The presidents wife state "They killed the president" and The driver SS Agent Greer apologize to Mrs Kennedy ?

Didn't hear oswald state that he was a patsie either,huh?

How did he do it when the changed the route and the car ?


Oh, in case you didn't know Guliani allowed it to happen on a Tri-pod so as to help his old friend silverstien collect the insurance which thank god wasn't granted in full.


Unless you're familier with New York politics you haven't got a clue James B.

Original plan for the WTC complex was a land grab real estate scheme from the fifties.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"




Sentinel

[Sentinel]

OH I guess Pat must think I'm such a looser now?



Is it any wonder that you people pro and con are the flippside of the same damn coin?



Oh, Your question has been answered JB







Sentinel

[Sentinel]

Isn't that stalking?




Sentinel

[JamesB]

That was your rebuttal? I feel like I am watching "A Beautiful Mind. Except I doubt you are that good at math.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

OH I guess Pat must think I'm such a looser now?
Pat who?


Is it any wonder that you people pro
Pro what?
and con Con what? are the flippside of the same damn coin? What coin?

[Carnivore]

Oh good, Sentinel is back.

Re passports, I actually was asked to show one on the streets of Manchester once.

I was on my to work in the vicinity of Old Trafford on a match day when I was stopped and searched by a pair of police officers. (I was wearing a black gilet with lots of bulky pockets and carrying a rucksack.) After they heard my accent they asked if I had my passport on me. I did, as it was the only form of photo ID that I had.

Just saying some people do carry them, and sometimes at least get asked for them.

[Sentinel]

Yeah, I made it really easy for you JB.

See what happened to the Indians= "Landgrab
see what happened in New Orleans? "LandGrab"
Denver ? Land Grab =DIA
Lower Manahattan= Radio Row=WTC=New Real Estate= "Landgrab"
Making the poor scapegoats so as to remove them from sight= "Landgrab"



Maybe you're the one with the math problems?




Sentinel

[WildCat]

Yeah, I made it really easy for you JB.

See what happened to the Indians= "Landgrab
see what happened in New Orleans? "LandGrab"
Denver ? Land Grab =DIA
Lower Manahattan= Radio Row=WTC=New Real Estate= "Landgrab"
Making the poor scapegoats so as to remove them from sight= "Landgrab"



Maybe you're the one with the math problems?




Sentinel
What the hell are you talking about? You are a complete loon, Sentinel. You obviously cannot answer a simple question coherently, I really have no idea how you ever passed a firefighters exam. Family connections pulled some strings perhaps? At any rate, there is psychological help available to you. I suggest you use it.

Have a wonderful day! :rolleyes:

[Sentinel]

Welcome,



I have a question in regards to the London Tube Bombings.



If there were multible police agencies in proxiomity the stations the day before regarding the olympic decisions, why didn't they search people the way you mentioned in you're experience?


Were'nt there warnings prior to the incident?


Why were there any police officers photographed in the pictures?


Doesn't London have a million cameras on the streets and yet three photos are the only ones shown of the backpacks.


Why is there a witness who survived the bombings stating he was told to "be careful by the Bobbies because the floor seemed to indicate the bomb was under the train"?



Sentinel

[Sentinel]

Wildcat needs a tune up, for real.


What are you like twelve or eleven years old?

Does your mommy know your using her computar little girlie boy?


Sentinel

[JamesB]

I am not sure how a bunch of questions regarding the hijackers still being alive, their flying skills and the FBI investigation can be replied to with "landgrab". Are we talking about 9/11 or the Kelo decision?

[Sentinel]

The ART or WAR states to let your enemy think little of you and you'll be able to brake down the door and bust their face open like a riped fruit.


So I say keep under estamating me, please

Show me who you are.


..........................................ICU2 ?





Sentinel

[JamesB]

So I say keep under estamating me, please

Believe me, that would be impossible.

[Sentinel]

The motive as far as I can see relates to the falling dollar against the Euro.
It seems that every country that went towards the Euro seems to be a target.

Iraq shortly before the invasion, remember the hill of money that was located in Iraq after the invasion? Hugo Chavez went to the Euro now hes' the enemy among others. The money is the bottom line in politics. The real estate bubble is about to deflate.



Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The ART or WAR states to let your enemy think little of you and you'll be able to brake down the door and bust their face open like a riped fruit.


So I say keep under estamating me, please

Show me who you are.


..........................................ICU2 ?

Sentinel


It's The Art of War

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to
irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

[Sentinel]

Very perseptive





Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Very perseptive





Sentinel
Here, try using this, http://www.spellcheck.net/

[Pak43]

If there were multible police agencies in proxiomity the stations the day before regarding the olympic decisions, why didn't they search people the way you mentioned in you're experience?
There weren't...

Were'nt there warnings prior to the incident?
No


Why were there any police officers photographed in the pictures?
I'll assume you really mean why weren't there otherwise the question doesn't make sense...
See answers 1 and 2

Doesn't London have a million cameras on the streets and yet three photos are the only ones shown of the backpacks.
London does not have "a million cameras on the streets"

Why is there a witness who survived the bombings stating he was told to "be careful by the Bobbies because the floor seemed to indicate the bomb was under the train"?
There isn't...

[R.Mackey]

Isn't that stalking?

Sentinel
If I had any doubts about whether poor Sentinel was a paranoiac in need of help, they were just dispelled.

Although he could be making me think he's a paranoiac, according to what he learned from Sun Tzu or The Five Rings or whatever... but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

[CurtC]

I was on my to work in the vicinity of Old Trafford on a match day when I was stopped and searched by a pair of police officers. (I was wearing a black gilet with lots of bulky pockets and carrying a rucksack.) I have no idea:

* Where you were
* When this was
* What you were wearing
* What you were carrying.

ETA: You seem to have explained all of those things, but in a language I don't understand.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If I had any doubts about whether poor Sentinel was a paranoiac in need of help, they were just dispelled.

Although he could be making me think he's a paranoiac, according to what he learned from Sun Tzu or The Five Rings or whatever... but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

nitpick :boxedin:
Five Rings was Musashi Miyamoto
:boxedin: /nitpick

[Sentinel]

Hey, aren't you the intel agent from the NYPD who paid me that visit before 9-11?

Yeah, you were with agent Hall, thats RIGHT, you are.


Well, hello my old friend its been wuite some time, did that shooting thing go ok? the one where you accidently shot the cop in the back?

I hear agent hall is no longer with the detail, what happened?




Sentinel

[60hzxtl]

Isn't that stalking?




Sentinel


No.

Observation Dr. Watson.

Based on time, day, day of the week, and style of post, lack of spell check, and sudden departure at closing time.

I never left my office in Brooklyn.

[Pardalis]

Sentinel, could you summarize your arguments in one single post please. i got you on ignore but you still take up alot of space.

Thanks

[Pak43]

The motive as far as I can see relates to the falling dollar against the Euro. It seems that every country that went towards the Euro seems to be a target.

Except good old Britain, who of course haven't adopted the Euro...come on mate at least give the impression of doing some research otherwise this isn't a challenge it's just me pointing out that you've got a surfeit of arms and legs over brain cells...

[R.Mackey]

Hey, aren't you the intel agent from the NYPD who paid me that visit before 9-11?

Yeah, you were with agent Hall, thats RIGHT, you are.

Well, hello my old friend its been wuite some time, did that shooting thing go ok? the one where you accidently shot the cop in the back?

I hear agent hall is no longer with the detail, what happened?

Sentinel
Did you honestly just accuse me of shooting a peace officer??

It is definitely time you sought professional help. I'm sure someone here can point you to a good source of counseling and evaluation.

No, I am not kidding.

[WildCat]

Wildcat needs a tune up, for real.


What are you like twelve or eleven years old?

Does your mommy know your using her computar little girlie boy?


Sentinel
Yes, I am 12 years old. But i have my own computer and know how to spell and write a coherent sentence. You can't spell, write, and have no computer at all, so you go to the public library.

So who got you in the fire dept.? Your daddy? Uncle? Clearly, it wasn't by your own merits.

BTW - you know the gov't can monitor you through the gov't owned computer you post from, don't you?

[Hutch]

Carnivore:
I was on my to work in the vicinity of Old Trafford on a match day when I was stopped and searched by a pair of police officers. (I was wearing a black gilet with lots of bulky pockets and carrying a rucksack.)

I have no idea:

* Where you were
* When this was
* What you were wearing
* What you were carrying.

ETA: You seem to have explained all of those things, but in a language I don't understand.

It's OK Curt, I've been to Englad a few times, let me try and translate:

Old Trafford--The home stadium of Manchester United, one of the most famous soccer teams in the world.

Match Day--Manchester had a home game that day--probably Saturday, but they do have weekday matches too, so the actual day is in question.

Gilet--I admit I had to look this one up myself: http://www.indigoclothing.com/Jackets/Ripstop_Gilet_L247/

rucksack--Backpack

Given that Manchester and other English soccer crowds are prone to rather, ah, "exuberant" displays, cops will be out in numbers and making sure there are no rocks, bottles, knives, submachineguns, et. al. being brought around the stadium.

Hope that helps--been to Highbury, Tottenham Court, West Ham and Leeds myself.

[Hutch]

We have GOT to get Sentinel and Christophera into the same conversation..even if it violates several laws of physics in doing so...

[Gravy]

OMG !!
Write and you didn't notice the SS Agent Greer turn around and point the shiny 45 and fire in close proximity to the governor who had to duck when the shot was fired? Didn't you hear The presidents wife state "They killed the president" and The driver SS Agent Greer apologize to Mrs Kennedy ?

Sentinel thinks Greer killed JFK. Sentinel, please start another thread...somewhere, if you want to pursue that issue.

And wherever you post, maybe you can take my advice of a few days ago: post one question. Only one.

Explain why you are looking for an answer. That's very important, because people don't wan't to waste their time with trolls.

Read the responses to your question carefully. Consider them carefully. Think before responding. Take a day or two if need be. We'll still be here.

Have a DISCUSSION about that issue until it's resolved, or until you think no resolution can be reached.

Then, and only then, move on to the next topic.

One question at a time, Sentinel. Patience.

Please try it.

[Gravy]

The ART or WAR states to let your enemy think little of you and you'll be able to brake down the door and bust their face open like a riped fruit.
So I say keep under estamating me, please
Show me who you are.
Sentinel
Holy freakin' auxiliary fireman, Batman!
Sentinel, what's going on here? Busting faces? That doesn't sound good.

I also live in Brooklyn. If you need someone to talk to, I'm available. You can PM me. But please, don't threaten people. You're better than that.

[Gravy]

Did you honestly just accuse me of shooting a peace officer??
Go ahead, prove that you never did.

[Brainster]

Carnivore:

Hope that helps--been to Highbury, Tottenham Court, West Ham and Leeds myself.

West Ham and Charlton Athletic myself (where I witnessed an incredible riot).

[dubfan]

Dylan, I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for all the work you have done to get half the country spun up over a bunch of crap that is completely wrong. If it weren't for you, all of these holocaust deniers and other low-caliber intellects would be off in a corner somewhere muttering about CIA plots and nefarious conspiracies and moon hoaxes and CGI 767s and voice morphing all by themselves.

Now, though, thanks to your yeoman efforts with Loose Change, you've managed to get this nuttery out into the mainstream.

Good job, dude!
(http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5476704)

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/thumbsup.gif

[R.Mackey]

Go ahead, prove that you never did.
:D Thing is, if I had to, I'm sure I could. Wouldn't be any trouble at all to substantiate that I was nowhere near NYC when this allegedly happened. Never been there at all in fact (excepting JFK airport) (yes, I know, my life is incomplete)...

This is a new one, though. I've seen a lot of wacky stuff on teh intarwebz, but this is the first time I've ever been accused of a major crime, totally out of the blue.

Not ninja material, perhaps, but do I at least get a medal?

[hellaeon]

Just been to LooserLand

Man, just reading the classic college/uni dropout crap of "government is so corrupt!!!".
WOW what a realisation.

My ladies brother was an avid activist for the environment. To make a difference instead of sitting on computers and typing crap and screaming rubbish at every chance, propogating propaganda and the like, he actually works for the GOVERNMENT and EDUCATES children on environmental issues.

They think your USA government is corrupt? How about living in Zimbabwe or some heavy islamic controlled middle eastern country? God man, these people have no perspective. I bet they would shun someone collecting for world aid at their doors.

f***in looser man. Complete and utter loosers.

[Carnivore]

Carnivore:




It's OK Curt, I've been to Englad a few times, let me try and translate:

Old Trafford--The home stadium of Manchester United, one of the most famous soccer teams in the world.

Match Day--Manchester had a home game that day--probably Saturday, but they do have weekday matches too, so the actual day is in question.

Gilet--I admit I had to look this one up myself: http://www.indigoclothing.com/Jackets/Ripstop_Gilet_L247/

rucksack--Backpack

Given that Manchester and other English soccer crowds are prone to rather, ah, "exuberant" displays, cops will be out in numbers and making sure there are no rocks, bottles, knives, submachineguns, et. al. being brought around the stadium.

Hope that helps--been to Highbury, Tottenham Court, West Ham and Leeds myself.

Apologies CurtC! I was in fact using a little known dialect called "English". I realize this sometimes needs translation. Hutch did a bang up job. (That means he got it right! :) )

I think you would call a gilet a body warmer? A jacket with no sleeves, anyway.

[dubfan]

The latest line of argument over in that utopia of reason and logic:

I don't know anyone who actually was a passenger on one of the planes, and you don't either, therefore it's teh conspiracy!!11 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6668).

[Brainster]

The latest line of argument over in that utopia of reason and logic:

I don't know anyone who actually was a passenger on one of the planes, and you don't either, therefore it's teh conspiracy!!11 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6668).

Unless you lived or worked in LA, SF, Boston, DC, or New Jersey, you'd be relatively unlikely to know any of the passengers, but if you were from any of those places it's quite possible. When Northwest Flight 255 went down in Detroit en route to my home of Phoenix, I knew a couple people on the flight; one ex-girlfriend and one Phoenix Suns basketball player. But there have been dozens of other plane crashes in the years before and after and since none of them involved a Phoenix flight, nobody I know has died.

My sister (New Jersey) knew two people on Flight 93--Todd Beamer (lived in her town) and Jeremy Glick (his father worked with her husband).

[60hzxtl]

David Angell

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0029628/

He was from a place where everybody knew his name.

(Hey, where is Manny?)

[aggle-rithm]

Well, I don't know what took so long, but I've been suspended at Loose Change forums until approximately the end of time.

True to their open-minded, truth-seeking, democracy-loving ways, I was given no warning or notice of any kind.

It's about time! Every time I got in a discussion over there, I came away feeling like Mr. Spock after a bad Vulcan mind-meld.

[Gravy]

Unless you lived or worked in LA, SF, Boston, DC, or New Jersey, you'd be relatively unlikely to know any of the passengers, but if you were from any of those places it's quite possible. When Northwest Flight 255 went down in Detroit en route to my home of Phoenix, I knew a couple people on the flight; one ex-girlfriend and one Phoenix Suns basketball player. But there have been dozens of other plane crashes in the years before and after and since none of them involved a Phoenix flight, nobody I know has died.

My sister (New Jersey) knew two people on Flight 93--Todd Beamer (lived in her town) and Jeremy Glick (his father worked with her husband).
It's hard to understand what a cartoon world the Loosers live in. In my interview transcriptions, Avery grudgingly admits – in 2006 – that he's come to accept that the passengers on the planes were probably real, because he gets emails from their relatives. What a hideous creep.

I didn't know anyone on the planes, but I'm only one person separated from passengers on three of the 9/11 flights. That is, I'm close to three people (one being my brother), who knew those passengers.

[WildCat]

Dylan, I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for all the work you have done to get half the country spun up over a bunch of crap that is completely wrong. If it weren't for you, all of these holocaust deniers and other low-caliber intellects would be off in a corner somewhere muttering about CIA plots and nefarious conspiracies and moon hoaxes and CGI 767s and voice morphing all by themselves.

Now, though, thanks to your yeoman efforts with Loose Change, you've managed to get this nuttery out into the mainstream.

Good job, dude!
(http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5476704)

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/thumbsup.gif
That is the best thread EVER!

Gravy, you have really got them on the run now! :big:

[dubfan]

Dated a girl who lost her stepdad at the Pentagon -- in the building, not on AA77. She cannot discuss 9/11 comfortably to this very day.

[Gravy]

Well, I don't know what took so long, but I've been suspended at Loose Change forums until approximately the end of time.

True to their open-minded, truth-seeking, democracy-loving ways, I was given no warning or notice of any kind.

It's about time! Every time I got in a discussion over there, I came away feeling like Mr. Spock after a bad Vulcan mind-meld.
Hoorah! Where's your badge?

Really, though, aggle, you did great work. Now you get to sit back and watch them self-destruct.

Or, just create a sock puppet and log in with a new name. My LC username is DJLegacy2k1 (ever notice that we're never seen in the same room together?).

[Apollyon]

OMG! You are all spooks.

I can't believe this is actually a forum full of CIA people put in place to monitor the truth movement who you inevitably knew would come along to challenge your complicit lies.

:shocked:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5479416

[Gravy]

Dylan, I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for all the work you have done to get half the country spun up over a bunch of crap that is completely wrong. If it weren't for you, all of these holocaust deniers and other low-caliber intellects would be off in a corner somewhere muttering about CIA plots and nefarious conspiracies and moon hoaxes and CGI 767s and voice morphing all by themselves.

Now, though, thanks to your yeoman efforts with Loose Change, you've managed to get this nuttery out into the mainstream.

Good job, dude!
(http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5476704)

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/thumbsup.gif

Whoa! I didn't read that whole thread before. During interviews they complain that they're treated like kids by their critics. Now Avery is saying, "We're just kids, give us a break." Yeah, just kids accusing people of mass murder while giving a pass to the real killers.

Sorry, Avery, but like it or not, you're chronologically a man. I was 22 once, and did my share of silly things, but you are off-the-chart arrogantly, vehemently, publicly, an a-hole.

Avery thinks I'm a waste of his time, but I told him that if he pays heed to my criticisms now, he will save himself a lot of embarrassment and grief in the future. We'll see.

[WildCat]

Whoa! I didn't read that whole thread before. During interviews they complain that they're treated like kids by their critics. Now Avery is saying, "We're just kids, give us a break." Yeah, just kids accusing people of mass murder while giving a pass to the real killers.

Sorry, Avery, but like it or not, you're chronologically a man. I was 22 once, and did my share of silly things, but you are off-the-chart arrogantly, vehemently, publicly, an a-hole.

Avery thinks I'm a waste of his time, but I told him that if he pays heed to my criticisms now, he will save himself a lot of embarrassment and grief in the future. We'll see.
You vs. Dylan is like tonights game between the White Sox and Cardinals.

You're the Sox, BTW. :D

[RandFan]

Now Avery is saying, "We're just kids, give us a break." Yeah, just kids accusing people of mass murder while giving a pass to the real killers.Kids who are hurting people who have already been victimized and you show zero respect for the people you ostensibly care about. It would be nice if you would grow up.

[dubfan]

Whoa! I didn't read that whole thread before. During interviews they complain that they're treated like kids by their critics. Now Avery is saying, "We're just kids, give us a break." Yeah, just kids accusing people of mass murder while giving a pass to the real killers.

Interesting... I just spent a half hour writing a post on exactly that theme. They can't have it both ways. If they want to make serious charges and be taken seriously like adults, they need to be prepared for adult-sized criticism. They can't run away and claim we're just kids with a little old homemade film when the heat's on. Not after 7 million downloads, etc etc.

[Gravy]

Interesting... I just spent a half hour writing a post on exactly that theme. They can't have it both ways. If they want to make serious charges and be taken seriously like adults, they need to be prepared for adult-sized criticism. They can't run away and claim we're just kids with a little old homemade film when the heat's on. Not after 7 million downloads, etc etc.

I'm with you. Great post by dubfan here. Catch it before the thread is removed. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5480515

[steve s]

Interesting... I just spent a half hour writing a post on exactly that theme. They can't have it both ways. If they want to make serious charges and be taken seriously like adults, they need to be prepared for adult-sized criticism. They can't run away and claim we're just kids with a little old homemade film when the heat's on. Not after 7 million downloads, etc etc.

I just read your post over there. It's brilliant. Everyone should read it. Please post a link to it. (I only know how to link to the entire thread. How do I link to an individual post?)

Steve S.

[MarkyX]

That's why Dylan and LTW are such heroes to me. Their life is on the line for the cause of Truth. Already a number of truthseekers have met curious ends.


HAHAHAHA LIFE IS ON THE LINE..

Keep dreaming buddy.

[gumboot]

My dad's a military officer here in New Zealand. A good friend of his was a staff officer in the very office that got hit. By luck he was in another part of the building on an errand at the time.

A couple of days after 9/11 He sent out an email to his friends world wide (including my Dad) basically giving his account of the day. It's a chilling and harrowing read. He is a navy intelligence officer, so he's very precise and clear about details.

He clearly identifies and describes flash-burns - unique injuries only caused by fuel-based fireballs (incidently, the same as described by the people who heard a "bomb" in the basement/lobbies of the Twin Towers, confirming it was jet fuel going down elevator shafts). He describes the chaos of the scene, the way the military took over from emergency personnel way out of their depth. He describes the dead and wounded. He describes walking home for 6 hours late that night (traffic wasn't going anywhere) after trying to rescue his work mates all day.

It is the experiences and memories of people like this, people like the firemen who toiled for weeks at ground zero hoping to find fellow firemen still alive, relatives of U93 who at least have the knowledge their loved ones tried to do something, it is all of this that makes things like LC such a vile terrible thing.

And yet they wonder why people like us care, if LC is such a pile of garbage what's the big deal?

It confirms what the document of the filmmakers' quotes made me suspect... these people have no idea of the significance of what they are saying.

I only hope you guys can somehow prevent your country from slipping into this madness. I suspect it's already too late for my country. Everyone here seems to believe things like LC as a matter of course.

-Andrew

[Class]

Looser jdyolam seems to think that a clear sunny day in September is suspicious. What are the chances that a terrorist attack would happen on a sunny, cloudless day?
s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6678&st=0&#entry5481373

[CurtC]

Well, I don't know what took so long, but I've been suspended at Loose Change forums until approximately the end of time.
Me too. It must have been two-fer night.

No warning or explanation. I think the latest Gravy piece has rocked their little world. Take a look at this post by trombones76 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5482879):
Okay, I started this thread, and I'm not saying i'm sorry, because I'm always in favor of free discussion. But I am somewhat sorry that I came to this forum to begin with. I found it through a friend of mine who knows I have major issues with the WTC collapses. Basically, he told me that this was THE place to come for alternative discussion.

...

But I am nobody's toady, and I always want to know what's what for myself. So in the past day I read the rest of the "hit piece" and listened to several of the interviews that were referred to.

And I'm sorry, guys, but I cannot support LC after hearing the things I heard.

...

From what I heard, the quotes were not taken out of context. They are what they are. And alot of them are just plain nasty and stupid and wrong. And relying on Jason Bermas? This guy is a crackpot, plain and simple. He's a f***ing idiiot. And Dylan and Korey seem to look up to him as Mr. Knowledge.

But the worst part is hearing Dylan dissing the victims, or try to back away and say he's not dissing them, and then he insults them.

Reactions like that are why you did all that work, Gravy.

[RandFan]

Looser jdyolam seems to think that a clear sunny day in September is suspicious. What are the chances that a terrorist attack would happen on a sunny, cloudless day?
s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6678&st=0&#entry5481373:D

Damn, the Loose Change Brain Trust. Proof positive, it was a sunny day.

[gumboot]

Any of you heard of

Loose Trains (http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/)?

Check it out. Daming proof:


Nicholas Borrillo -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) on 23rd floor of North Tower:
Then we heard a rumble. We heard it and we felt the whole building shake. It was like being on a train, being in an earthquake. A train is more like it, because with the train you hear the rumbling, and it kind of like moved you around in the hall.

***

The government, using the CIA, conspired with the Freemasons and Amtrak to kill thousands of Americans to increase the profit of railway companies. They used holographic planes to fool the world not just to hide the truth, THEY DID IT TO SCARE PEOPLE AWAY FROM AIR TRAVEL SO THAT THEY WOULD RIDE MORE TRAINS.

Brilliant...

:D

[Gravy]

Looser Popul Vuh is quite the paragon of righteous indignation:

To suggest that those who post here make mokery over the deaths of those who were murdered on 911 is such an outrageous lie I can't imagine you actually typed those words. I lost two very close friends, and daily see the remains of their families struggling to come to terms with what happened, and they don't believe a word of the "official story" so a hearty F U! for your insensitivity and ignorance.

The only reason I bother with this, after all the time, energy, money and sleep I've lost is BECAUSE of those people and the widows and survivors I've met since then who coudn't disagree with you more.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5460291
Ah, but it was Popul Vuh who got me started on all this, with his hideous disrespect for victim Edna Cintron:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1572580&postcount=1

Loosers have very short memories.

[Brainster]

Me too. It must have been two-fer night.

No warning or explanation. I think the latest Gravy piece has rocked their little world. Take a look at this post by trombones76 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5482879):


Reactions like that are why you did all that work, Gravy.

It's pretty disoriented over there. It's ironic that in the real world the Loosers are higher than they have ever been, but they can all sense the ship is taking on water. We can joke about it a lot, but those folks are the true believers and about all they can say anymore is that Loose Change is a good introduction to the concepts that the Truthers want to get across, despite all the errors that they now admit exist.

My buddy at the office? He's embarrassed, doesn't want to admit that he bought LC first time around. I thought he was the canary in the coalmine and he was, but in the good way--that people who are really interested in the facts won't listen to a BS Truther once the lies are exposed.

When James and I went over there first early in May about the best they would admit was the B-25, not B-52 issue. Now somebody writes in to compliment LC and even the Admins are saying "well, we hope you understand that Loose Change has a lot of problems."

Killer job by Gravy, Markyx and all you guys. I don't think this is over by any means, but we are winning for now.

[Brainster]

Looser Popul Vuh is quite the paragon of righteous indignation:


Ah, but it was Popul Vuh who got me started on all this, with his hideous disrespect for victim Edna Cintron:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1572580&postcount=1

Loosers have very short memories.

And I would not have heard of Loose Change (although I was vaguely aware of LIHOP and MIHOP) if the Loosers had not spammed the comments section of the Huffington Post reviews of United 93 at Tribeca. And I would probably not have gotten as irate had I seen V2 instead of V1; the part that really got me angry was the joking about Todd Beamer talking to a Verizon supervisor (and an FBI agent) instead of asking to be patched through to his pregnant wife. Somebody like Dylan would not understand that but any adult would appreciate the agony of the situation; to Avery it was a plot point in a soap opera to be criticized because it did not fit his juvenile worldview.

And to be honest there was a sense even on my first viewing that this was a target-rich environment. In the end the paranoids are right; Loose Change appears like a trap for the Truthers.

L. Ron Hubbard was wrong. Founding a religion seems like a difficult way to make money compared to just hopping on the conspiracy theory band wagon. Maybe we could collaborate on a film about New Orleans? I know, I know, we can't take advantage of folks that way. But it does make you think the bunco squads must have been tempted back in the day, when they saw how easily the marks turned over their money.

[Kaarjuus]

Founding a religion seems like a difficult way to make money compared to just hopping on the conspiracy theory band wagon. Maybe we could collaborate on a film about New Orleans?

A while ago I tried to invent the most ridiculous conspiracy theory I could, and decided that the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami would be a suitable source. Much to my dismay, I found that I was too late (do a web search on "tsunami conspiracy" and see for yourself.) There are actually people out there who believe that the tsunami was caused by

a) nuclear testing
b) a submarine firing a missile at a fault line
c) aliens trying to correct the planet's trajectory

Humanity is doomed :(

[gumboot]

a) nuclear testing
b) a submarine firing a missile at a fault line
c) aliens trying to correct the planet's trajectory

Humanity is doomed :(


A while back we had some pretty cool erruptions at Mt Rupehu here in New Zealand. A few newspapers immediately blamed french nuclear testing that was ongoing in the pacific. (They also described lava, even though it is an explosive volcano).

I have heard people blame American B-52 carpet bombing in Iraq for the earthquake that caused the Boxing Day Tsunami. Never mind the logic...if the minor energy release of carpet bombing produced earthquakes... that would mean an earthquake, releasing far more energy, would produce an even *bigger* earthquake, which would in turn produce and even BIGGER earthquake... and so forth.

-Andrew

[60hzxtl]

Humanity is doomed :(


Nah, but they've been twisting them selves in knots since the time the earth was flat, the dragons ate the sun during an eclipse, there were witchs that needed burnin', and the sun revolved around the earth.

They just have web accounts now and spred the bilge water quicker.

[Belz...]

Hey James B,

You debunked Me? when ?

You jerkoffs still havent answered the question as to how long the patriot act is (number of pages) and how long it was waiting for the false flag operation for passage.

When you do that and can answer it with childish name calling and conjecture then you can claim victory, until then you're a real clown

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

Sentinel

How does this relate to 9/11 ?

[Belz...]

Isn't that stalking?

Isn't this spamming ?

We don't need court,

We can handle it on the streets.

The peoples court.

I guess you have quite a respect for western civilisation.

You're still a shill,

"Because no one who wasn't on the gubmint payroll could disagree with me!"

dogpoop

Haven't learned anything from your suspension, have you ?

Write and you didn't notice the SS Agent Greer turn around and point the shiny 45 and fire in close proximity to the governor who had to duck when the shot was fired? Didn't you hear The presidents wife state "They killed the president" and The driver SS Agent Greer apologize to Mrs Kennedy ?

Didn't hear oswald state that he was a patsie either,huh?

Why are we talking about JFK, now ?

So, you're supporting not only terrorists, but communists as well ?

Oh, in case you didn't know Guliani allowed it to happen on a Tri-pod so as to help his old friend silverstien collect the insurance which thank god wasn't granted in full.

I'm sure the MAYOR of NEW YORK was delighted to lose two of his most prized landmarks... :rolleyes:

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

So are those who know NOTHING of it.

[Belz...]

See what happened to the Indians= "Landgrab
see what happened in New Orleans? "LandGrab"
Denver ? Land Grab =DIA
Lower Manahattan= Radio Row=WTC=New Real Estate= "Landgrab"
Making the poor scapegoats so as to remove them from sight= "Landgrab"

Maybe you're the one with the math problems?

Just because you put "=" signs in it doesn't make it math.

The ART or WAR states to let your enemy think little of you and you'll be able to brake down the door and bust their face open like a riped fruit.

That's your proof ?

[Hutch]

Originally Posted by Sentinel :
The ART or WAR states to let your enemy think little of you and you'll be able to brake down the door and bust their face open like a riped fruit. Originally Posted by Sentinel :

Hmmm--Sun Tzu meets the Mafia?

Just a note to add my praise to all who have worked so hard and so well on this. I still think Gravy should submit a paper for TAM5 on his debunk of Loose Change (OK, it's not exactly paranormal, but its' damn good work nonetheless) and if and fellow ninjas make it to TAM5 in Jan 07, the first round of drinks are on me.

[aggle-rithm]

Hoorah! Where's your badge?



My badge? Where's my badge?

Where's my government paycheck, I want to know! ;)

(Yes, I know I haven't been keeping up with my weekly reports...but now I'll have lots of free time!)

[aggle-rithm]

A while ago I tried to invent the most ridiculous conspiracy theory I could, and decided that the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami would be a suitable source. Much to my dismay, I found that I was too late (do a web search on "tsunami conspiracy" and see for yourself.) There are actually people out there who believe that the tsunami was caused by

a) nuclear testing
b) a submarine firing a missile at a fault line
c) aliens trying to correct the planet's trajectory

Humanity is doomed :(

My wife's aunt said that the earthquake that caused the tsunami displaced the entire earth's crust by one inch, and that's why the foundation of my house is cracked.

Ummm....yeah.

[aggle-rithm]

Me too. It must have been two-fer night.

No warning or explanation. I think the latest Gravy piece has rocked their little world. Take a look at this post by trombones76 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5482879):


Reactions like that are why you did all that work, Gravy.

As near as I can figure, the reason for my suspension is that I included the text of the previous message in a reply -- there was a note from the moderator about it, perhaps that was my "warning".

Never mind that their system DEFAULTS to include the previous posts....

[Shrinker]

My badge? Where's my badge?

Where's my government paycheck, I want to know! ;)

(Yes, I know I haven't been keeping up with my weekly reports...but now I'll have lots of free time!)
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Trying to keep up with sudden demand...

For for angering pimply boys, aggle-rithm is hereby awarded...
http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/3617447af0dad1e6c.jpg

handshake handshake clap clap clap

[dubfan]

I just read your post over there. It's brilliant. Everyone should read it. Please post a link to it. (I only know how to link to the entire thread. How do I link to an individual post?)

Steve S.

Thanks Steve. To post a link, you can click on the header of the post over there, where it says "Posted", in bold, up at the top.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5480515

[WildCat]

Be a hero dubfan (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5484599)!
Dubfan, the "WE" you speak of sounds strangely like a group of professional researchers and a speechwriter.

And some of us Truthers say that the government is hiding something. Not in your case. You're as transparent as glass, and we can see straight through you.

I'd hazard a guess and say that for every spook name on this forum there would be three individuals, one for each 8 hour shift, and a couple of researchers. Am I close?

Whistleblowers are heroes. You too can become a hero.
Your cover is blown, might as well become a whistle blower... :dl:

[WildCat]

Thanks Steve. To post a link, you can click on the header of the post over there, where it says "Posted", in bold, up at the top.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5480515
That only works if you're registered there. Otherwise, you have to put your cursor over the "quote" button and note the url.

[Kage]

I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but do you think we could get the Daily Show to interview these guys? I know more media exposure sounds like a bad idea, but the Daily Show would just marginalize them. I remember hearing how a cartoonist in Alabama helped ruin the KKK by making fun of them every week. Getting the entire country to laugh at these yahoos might just damn their movement the fastest way possible.

[ob986s]

even his own people are now asking him to "take Gravy to the Mat"

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695

I will fly to New York to watch if this actually happens, though honestly I know that it won't. No way Dylan (or Bermas) would take Gravy on in public.


best quote from this post:

I think this is a bluff, and you should call him on it. I've seen Jason debate, and his handle on the facts is unmatched. I think you should put up Jason as your champion and take this guy on.

Gravy and others, keep up the pressure. I went to ground zero for the first time a few weeks ago and can't thank you guys enough for taking the wind out of these idiot's sails.

Jon

[CurtC]

That only works if you're registered there. Otherwise, you have to put your cursor over the "quote" button and note the url.
Not true. Since being banned, I delete my cookies, and the site thinks I'm a guest. I still see the "Posted" link, and clicking it pops up a little window with the URL to go straight to that post. Like this one:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695&view=findpost&p=5489348

where SqueakyBoom is encouraging Dylan to take up Gravy's offer for a public debate.

By the way, Kage, the Loosers over there have said many times that they would like Jon Stewart to discuss the "Truth" movement. My thoughts are always "be careful what you ask for..."

[chipmunk stew]

I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but do you think we could get the Daily Show to interview these guys? I know more media exposure sounds like a bad idea, but the Daily Show would just marginalize them. I remember hearing how a cartoonist in Alabama helped ruin the KKK by making fun of them every week. Getting the entire country to laugh at these yahoos might just damn their movement the fastest way possible.Somewhere back in Part I of this thread, I posted a letter that I wrote to Mr. Stewart, encouraging begging him to lampoon these guys.

He doesn't have a public email address, but here's his snail-mail address if you want to have a go at it yourself:

Jon Stewart
c/o The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
733 11th Avenue
New York, NY 10019-5051

[Apollyon]

If Dylan is anything like his adoring Looser throng, he'll promise a debate and a great trouncing and then never show up to face Gravy, much like DJLunacy and Jenniferwhatshername.

Dem dogs is all bark and no bite.

[WildCat]

Not true. Since being banned, I delete my cookies, and the site thinks I'm a guest. I still see the "Posted" link, and clicking it pops up a little window with the URL to go straight to that post. Like this one:
Huh, how about that! I didn't notice because my cursor doesn't change when passing over it like most things clickable.

[realitybites]

even his own people are now asking him to "take Gravy to the Mat"

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695

I will fly to New York to watch if this actually happens, though honestly I know that it won't. No way Dylan (or Bermas) would take Gravy on in public.


best quote from this post:



Gravy and others, keep up the pressure. I went to ground zero for the first time a few weeks ago and can't thank you guys enough for taking the wind out of these idiot's sails.

Jon
I mean, I would like, totally want to see this. I mean, I'm not saying I'd, like, kill myself if it didn't, ya' know, happen, or whatever, but like, I mean, it would be so rad to see, ya' know, like, Dylan really take down this Roberts guy, I mean, ya' know not like 'take him down', but like really lay some **** to rest for, like, good, ya' know? I mean, like, wow.

This could like totally seriously be like the defining moment of, like, the Truth Movement, ya' know? I mean like, seriously.

.... Yeah

*** Cross-posted over at LC

[WildCat]

even his own people are now asking him to "take Gravy to the Mat"
And won't they be disappointed to find out that Dylan-god is every bit the pathetic coward that Roxdog and DJRunaway were. The debate won't ever happen.

[dubfan]

Be a hero dubfan (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5484599)!

Your cover is blown, might as well become a whistle blower... :dl:

Hey, is the second shift here yet? Cuz man, I'm spent.

And where's the pretty wench who normally gives me footrubs? Jessica, where are you?

[realitybites]

Well.... There ya have it (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695&view=findpost&p=5491608).

mark roberts is a complete and total waste of my time.

if he wants to debate, he knows where to find us. ground zero on 9/11 this year.

[chran]

I just loved Jason Bermas on the "extra footage" on LC2E (my, aren't we special - "extra footage"! :rolleyes: , going on about what countries Hitler invaded and he couldn't come up with a second one.

Handle on the facts, indeed!

[dubfan]

even his own people are now asking him to "take Gravy to the Mat"

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695

I will fly to New York to watch if this actually happens, though honestly I know that it won't. No way Dylan (or Bermas) would take Gravy on in public.


Better buy those plane tickets (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695&view=findpost&p=5491608)

;)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well.... There ya have it (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695&view=findpost&p=5491608).

So, once again they dodge the issue of a moderated debate, and instead, defer to a situation where they can turn it in to a shouting match, a la Morton Downey Jr.

[Kiwiwriter]

Now they're saying that all the people who died on the airplanes didn't die, because nobody in their small community of perpetual undergraduates personally knows anyone who died on the flights.

I'm not good at the math, so I can't even understand all this stuff about "Terminal Velocity" and "Free Fall Speeds." I had the lowest grades in math in the history of New York's elite Stuyvesant High School, and my assistant principal's reaction to that was to try and ship me to Automotive High School on the belief that if a student was not the new Fermat, he was scum.

However, I may not know math, but I can understand the humanities. And I find such prattle disgusting, crass, and boorishly insensitive.

These folks did not die? Why are their relatives still in mourning and pain?

These folks did not die? So where are they? How were they rounded up and sorted out? Who did this? What were these people told? Were they taken to Babi Yar and shot? Were these flights and their passengers picked at random? How were their last phone calls faked?

And yes, I do know of someone who died on Flight 77...the wife of the Solicitor General of the United States...admittedly the friend of a friend, but that woman is that friend's boss in the Department of Justice. The government is this cavalier with its high-ranking officials and their families?

A central thread of these Loose Changers and all conspiracy theorists is that behind the government folks who sit at their desks and do their jobs is a fairly large army of harder government people, with neither emotions nor empathy, who obediently participate in all kinds of horrific and highly illegal acts at the behest of their supervisors, out of rote obedience, religious obeisance, or conspiratorial oath. Then these villains, having done their dirty work, remain silent forever.

I guess they analogize it to Nazi Germany, but that doesn't work...during and after the war, numerous participants in the Holocaust admitted their misdeeds and evils. Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, wrote his memoirs, revealing himself to be a cold, unemotional killer. Other Nazi bigwigs like Otto Ohlendorf and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski testified as to their acts in postwar trials. Adolf Eichmann wrote his memoirs, which even said that Hitler gave the verbal order to Himmler to kill all the Jews. They knew it happened, and they provided the evidence for future generations of scholars to study. There is no such "evidence" to confirm the Loose Changer theories.

I think they actually see the world as a continuing James Bond movie, in which supervillains with armies of flunkies carefully and secretly arrange the world's destruction, to achieve their nefarious dreams, and only the lone all-knowing, handsome hero, battling his own leadership as well as the evil genius, can solve the mystery, and defeat the super-villain -- preferably in hand-to-hand combat amid his flaming headquarters -- and save humanity.

These guys see themselves as modern-day Byrons or Greek heroes, the sole defense of civilization against Blofeld and Goldfinger. They're not old enough to realize that James Bond is fiction, and so are most conspiracy theories.

The sheer waste of energy is incredible.

[ob986s]

Better buy those plane tickets (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6695&view=findpost&p=5491608)

;)
I'll do it, but he will not debate. He will have his minions screaming at Gravy to drown him out so that there can be no actual debate.

Gravy, you should take this opportunity to contact local NYC Radio stations to set up a remote and a time on 9/11. He now has agreed to do it that day at Ground Zero I bet someone would give you airtime. Hell Penn Gillette’s show run in NYC in the afternoon, contact his producer. It will be fun to see how fast Dylan backtracks

Dubfan, you want to drive up? We could make the "Tail of the Dragon" be on the way. :)

Jon

[Brainster]

Has finally been created (http://www.kolumbus.fi/totuus/doc/rgvg.html). Using sophisticated debating techniques and heavily footnoted and backed up by extensive research, Antti Partanen has demolished Gravy's debunking of Loose Change.

About the best that can be said now is that Gravy's debunking is a good introduction to the concepts us anti-Truthers are trying to get across.

Okay, just kidding.:rolleyes:

[dubfan]

I'll do it, but he will not debate. He will have his minions screaming at Gravy to drown him out so that there can be no actual debate.

Gravy, you should take this opportunity to contact local NYC Radio stations to set up a remote and a time on 9/11. He now has agreed to do it that day at Ground Zero I bet someone would give you airtime. Hell Penn Gillette’s show run in NYC in the afternoon, contact his producer. It will be fun to see how fast Dylan backtracks

Dubfan, you want to drive up? We could make the "Tail of the Dragon" be on the way. :)

Jon

I am SO there.

[Belz...]

When 9/11 arrived, some of us who are old enough to remember all these things, weren't all that surprised. Some of us thought, "I wonder what took them so long".

Well, I was severely demoralised on 9/11, but I wasn't surprised at all.

[Belz...]

Loose_Change... (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6602&view=findpost&p=5476704)

From that thread:

You remeber exactly what you were told by mass media.

You mean Neocon's next logical step to promote their agenda?

:boxedin:

[rikzilla]

I'll do it, but he will not debate. He will have his minions screaming at Gravy to drown him out so that there can be no actual debate.

Gravy, you should take this opportunity to contact local NYC Radio stations to set up a remote and a time on 9/11. He now has agreed to do it that day at Ground Zero I bet someone would give you airtime. Hell Penn Gillette’s show run in NYC in the afternoon, contact his producer. It will be fun to see how fast Dylan backtracks

Dubfan, you want to drive up? We could make the "Tail of the Dragon" be on the way. :)

Jon

I rode the "Dragon" last month on my V-Star 1100. Got the t-shirt. Make sure you are driving something small and nimble for maximum effect!

I hope to see you guys in NYC. I'm not so sure I can make it as there may be plenty of local loosers about during the 9/11 commemoration at the Pentagon
and it may be better that I'm here to counter them...but if it looks like it'll all be in NYC I'm there!!! Gravy'll need some ninja minions of his own to help counter the barking moonbats of looser-land.

-z

[Belz...]

The latest line of argument over in that utopia of reason and logic:

I don't know anyone who actually was a passenger on one of the planes, and you don't either, therefore it's teh conspiracy!!11 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6668).

Not, that's an interesting nugget:

Kind of along the same lines of what I was asking about the other day too. It seems that not a one of them are a part of the 911 truth movement and those seem to be the strangest circumstances that thier loved ones died especially flight 93

Obviously, you dope. If they DID, they'd never believe that crap in the first place.

[Sentinel]

OK, All jokes aside.

= means the math


As stores around them closed, Radio Row's businessed thinned, and nocturnal fires and break ins plagued the area, including several at east radio. Irving reported the incidents to the police, but the perpetrators were never caught. Ethel is certain that the PA was behind a campaign to harrass the hold outs into leaving rapidly. "In the end," she say, "we were pushed out by the goons," because he chose not to relocate, irving recieved no compensation from the Port Authority when East Radio closed its doors.

Divided We Stand / A biiography of new York's World Trade Center
By Eric Darton


= means "landgrab"



Sentinel

[Belz...]

Unless you lived or worked in LA, SF, Boston, DC, or New Jersey, you'd be relatively unlikely to know any of the passengers, but if you were from any of those places it's quite possible. When Northwest Flight 255 went down in Detroit en route to my home of Phoenix, I knew a couple people on the flight; one ex-girlfriend and one Phoenix Suns basketball player. But there have been dozens of other plane crashes in the years before and after and since none of them involved a Phoenix flight, nobody I know has died.

My sister (New Jersey) knew two people on Flight 93--Todd Beamer (lived in her town) and Jeremy Glick (his father worked with her husband).

Maybe someone should tell the LOOSERs that.

[Belz...]

It's about time! Every time I got in a discussion over there, I came away feeling like Mr. Spock after a bad Vulcan mind-meld.

Or, just create a sock puppet and log in with a new name. My LC username is DJLegacy2k1 (ever notice that we're never seen in the same room together?).

You mean a SPOCK puppet ?

[Belz...]

From Loose change thread:

"That's why Dylan and LTW are such heroes to me. Their life is on the line for the cause of Truth. Already a number of truthseekers have met curious ends."

Yes, I'm sure Dylan keeps looking over his shoulder every time he goes out to buy milk. :rolleyes:

[Sentinel]

In early 1996, New York City Mayor Rudolph Guliani opend uo his capaign to privatize the trade center and many of its other assets by accusing the PA of hiding its artworks from the public. What business, the mayor asked-al beit rhetorically-did a port agency have amassing and collecting art in the first place ? And why was it spending public money decorating a real estate asset, that by rights, it should not own?


Devided we stand

Eric Darton



Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

In early 1996, New York City Mayor Rudolph Guliani opend uo his capaign to privatize the trade center and many of its other assets by accusing the PA of hiding its artworks from the public. What business, the mayor asked-al beit rhetorically-did a port agency have amassing and collecting art in the first place ? And why was it spending public money decorating a real estate asset, that by rights, it should not own?


Devided we stand

Eric Darton



Sentinel

Am I correct in my assumption that you are attempting to show a pattern of behavior from the Port Authority, and plan to show how it ties to 9/11?

[kookbreaker]

Has finally been created (http://www.kolumbus.fi/totuus/doc/rgvg.html). Using sophisticated debating techniques and heavily footnoted and backed up by extensive research, Antti Partanen has demolished Gravy's debunking of Loose Change.

About the best that can be said now is that Gravy's debunking is a good introduction to the concepts us anti-Truthers are trying to get across.

Okay, just kidding.:rolleyes:

Whoo boy. All that time and not much to show for it. Lot's of snippets of Gravy's words, lots of lost context:


Remember the “Peace Dividend?”
I seriously doubt the Peace Dividend extended to the Pentagon, the power center of the military.


"I seriously doubt" becomes the standard of evidence here. Gravy is discussing the number of planes on alert in the post-cold war. The low number is an example of the peace dividend, and Pentagon did reduce its budget. The budget numbers are there, the facts about the number of planes are there, but this guys prefers to rely on "I seriously doubt"

In another example, with WTC7 he tries to equate evidence from Gravy with snippets from Loose Change:


Since we’re on the topic of WTC 7, let’s take a look at some more quotes from the experts who were on the scene.
Oh OK, you trust these experts, but not the ones who reported bombs in WTC1 and 2. Right.


First of all, nobody said 'a bomb', they said they heard explosions and describe them as being 'like a bomb'. The fact that these persons lived to tell about the noises indicates they certainly were not hearing a bomb designed for structural damage...those tend to not give you time to exit the building.

Second of all, Gravy gave full quotes specifically talking about the likely failure of the building, not snippets chosen from long running accounts.

So there is a reason that Gravy accepts comments of those experts over the snippets chosen by Dylan & co that likely do not represent what Dylan wants them to.

There's a level of sarcasm in this that puts Gravy's early version of the LCRG to shame. Sometimes he just seems angry at Gravy for making comments.

[azazal]

In early 1996, New York City Mayor Rudolph Guliani opend uo his capaign to privatize the trade center and many of its other assets by accusing the PA of hiding its artworks from the public. What business, the mayor asked-al beit rhetorically-did a port agency have amassing and collecting art in the first place ? And why was it spending public money decorating a real estate asset, that by rights, it should not own?


Devided we stand

Eric Darton



Sentinel
Am I correct in my assumption that you are attempting to show a pattern of behavior from the Port Authority, and plan to show how it ties to 9/11?


Can't you see the connections already? The artwork that the PA was hording for themselves were previously known works by Divinci. Those painting clearly showed where the holy grail could be found. The PA, clearly a new branch of the Knight Templar, were protecting the grail. Giuliani, a member of Opus Die, knew he couldn't just steal the paintings, so he arranged the whole 9/11 attacks, with the help of the Illuminati and the Jews, as a cover for his elite team of ninja commandos. They stole the needed paintings while everyone was distracted by the hologram planes and the detonations of explosives that the Illuminati had planted 30 years ago.

[Belz...]

I guess they analogize it to Nazi Germany, but that doesn't work...during and after the war, numerous participants in the Holocaust admitted their misdeeds and evils. Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, wrote his memoirs, revealing himself to be a cold, unemotional killer. Other Nazi bigwigs like Otto Ohlendorf and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski testified as to their acts in postwar trials. Adolf Eichmann wrote his memoirs, which even said that Hitler gave the verbal order to Himmler to kill all the Jews. They knew it happened, and they provided the evidence for future generations of scholars to study. There is no such "evidence" to confirm the Loose Changer theories.

Plus, I don't think the Nazis ever HID the fact that they were out for blood in the first place.

[Belz...]

OK, All jokes aside.

= means the math


As stores around them closed, Radio Row's businessed thinned, and nocturnal fires and break ins plagued the area, including several at east radio. Irving reported the incidents to the police, but the perpetrators were never caught. Ethel is certain that the PA was behind a campaign to harrass the hold outs into leaving rapidly. "In the end," she say, "we were pushed out by the goons," because he chose not to relocate, irving recieved no compensation from the Port Authority when East Radio closed its doors.

Divided We Stand / A biiography of new York's World Trade Center
By Eric Darton


= means "landgrab"



Sentinel

Hey... I can do that too:

Outdoor Network and Beckmannet.com is a authorized reseller of Beckman Products. Beckman Fishing Products is owned and operated by Lindy Little Joe. All warranty inquiries will be handled directly through Lindy Little Joe. They can be reached directly at: 218-829-1714.

At Beckmannet.com, we pride ourselves in selling only the highest quality Beckman landing nets. They hand build every fishing net with pride and can guarantee your satisfaction with their quality products.

We invite you to page through our online catalog and hope you will find the exact landing net that is just right for your type of fishing. Whatever type of fishing you enjoy; Beckman has the right landing net for you.

[dubfan]

Now they're saying that all the people who died on the airplanes didn't die, because nobody in their small community of perpetual undergraduates personally knows anyone who died on the flights.

I'm not good at the math, so I can't even understand all this stuff about "Terminal Velocity" and "Free Fall Speeds." I had the lowest grades in math in the history of New York's elite Stuyvesant High School, and my assistant principal's reaction to that was to try and ship me to Automotive High School on the belief that if a student was not the new Fermat, he was scum.

However, I may not know math, but I can understand the humanities. And I find such prattle disgusting, crass, and boorishly insensitive.

These folks did not die? Why are their relatives still in mourning and pain?

These folks did not die? So where are they? How were they rounded up and sorted out? Who did this? What were these people told? Were they taken to Babi Yar and shot? Were these flights and their passengers picked at random? How were their last phone calls faked?

And yes, I do know of someone who died on Flight 77...the wife of the Solicitor General of the United States...admittedly the friend of a friend, but that woman is that friend's boss in the Department of Justice. The government is this cavalier with its high-ranking officials and their families?

A central thread of these Loose Changers and all conspiracy theorists is that behind the government folks who sit at their desks and do their jobs is a fairly large army of harder government people, with neither emotions nor empathy, who obediently participate in all kinds of horrific and highly illegal acts at the behest of their supervisors, out of rote obedience, religious obeisance, or conspiratorial oath. Then these villains, having done their dirty work, remain silent forever.

I guess they analogize it to Nazi Germany, but that doesn't work...during and after the war, numerous participants in the Holocaust admitted their misdeeds and evils. Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, wrote his memoirs, revealing himself to be a cold, unemotional killer. Other Nazi bigwigs like Otto Ohlendorf and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski testified as to their acts in postwar trials. Adolf Eichmann wrote his memoirs, which even said that Hitler gave the verbal order to Himmler to kill all the Jews. They knew it happened, and they provided the evidence for future generations of scholars to study. There is no such "evidence" to confirm the Loose Changer theories.

I think they actually see the world as a continuing James Bond movie, in which supervillains with armies of flunkies carefully and secretly arrange the world's destruction, to achieve their nefarious dreams, and only the lone all-knowing, handsome hero, battling his own leadership as well as the evil genius, can solve the mystery, and defeat the super-villain -- preferably in hand-to-hand combat amid his flaming headquarters -- and save humanity.

These guys see themselves as modern-day Byrons or Greek heroes, the sole defense of civilization against Blofeld and Goldfinger. They're not old enough to realize that James Bond is fiction, and so are most conspiracy theories.

The sheer waste of energy is incredible.

Nicely said.

[dubfan]

About the best that can be said now is that Gravy's debunking is a good introduction to the concepts us anti-Truthers are trying to get across.

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I've always wanted to do that.

[dubfan]

Whoo boy. All that time and not much to show for it.

Looser: A-ha! We finally have our holy grail! The long-sought "debunking" of Gravy! Take *that*, Team JREF Ninja Wave!

JREF: Um, this debunking says Loose Change is factually wrong about most things, that Loose Change basically sucks, and that hopefully LC3 will "suck less". Most of the "debunking" consists of arguing (weakly) with Gravy's editorial commentary -- not his presentation of the facts.

Looser: Oh.

Looser: Hey man, we're just asking questions!

[The_Fire]

Question: What is a debunk, which is not a debunk?

A looser trying to argue with evidence and failing.

[Sentinel]

New York City's mayor RTudolph Guliani, who leaped at the agency's throat virtually the morning of his inauguration in january 1993. In contrast to the relatively measured tones of the two governors and their supernumeraries, Guliani's vehemence ratcheted higher in pitch as early in his administration he slashed city agencies and services in an attempt to avoid a multiy-million dollar budget gap. In early 1996, the mayors right hand man derided the PA as "the fattest sacred cow in America."


Devided We stand
Eric Darton


Sentinel

[MarkyX]

Oh can I debunk this so called "Debunking?"

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Oh can I debunk this so called "Debunking?"

But the real question is, at what dilution does the debunking become more powerful than the mother tincture?

[chipmunk stew]

But the real question is, at what dilution does the debunking become more powerful than the mother tincture?When it reaches the ultimate, all-encompassing "Nuh-uh, infinity!"

[Class]

Gravy, I have to be honest. DJLegacy utterly destroyed your Viewers Guide to Loose Change with his debunk. All of your "information" is debunked with hard-hitting facts that are not backed up by any sources (but I am sure he used some). He shows that you were completely wrong with rebuttals such as["a three alarm fire broke out"] It was a 3-alarm fire, not a 12-alarm.
Really. and
Anyway, why would someone who insures a building want to destroy it?
Unbeliavable. Hello, insurance fraud?
Italics are Legacy's comments.

Sorry Gravy, your days as a government shill are over.

[aggle-rithm]

Plus, I don't think the Nazis ever HID the fact that they were out for blood in the first place.

Yep -- Hitler published a BOOK describing his plans to conquer Eastern Europe!

[aggle-rithm]

New York City's mayor RTudolph Guliani, who leaped at the agency's throat virtually the morning of his inauguration in january 1993. In contrast to the relatively measured tones of the two governors and their supernumeraries, Guliani's vehemence ratcheted higher in pitch as early in his administration he slashed city agencies and services in an attempt to avoid a multiy-million dollar budget gap. In early 1996, the mayors right hand man derided the PA as "the fattest sacred cow in America."


Devided We stand
Eric Darton


Sentinel

Eric Darton needs to learn how to spell.

[Brainster]

Oh can I debunk this so called "Debunking?"

Somebody's going to have to bunk it first. ;)

[JamesB]

I just loved Jason Bermas on the "extra footage" on LC2E (my, aren't we special - "extra footage"! , going on about what countries Hitler invaded and he couldn't come up with a second one.
That part cracked me up too. "Hitler invaded two countries, Poland.... and... that other one.... I can't remember it right now".

Wow, and this guy is their researcher.

[Bronze Dog]

Does anyone else find it silly that someone would kill nearly 3,000 people for insurance fraud money? There are easier ways to make money that don't involve global coverups. Ask Amway.

[chipmunk stew]

Does anyone else find it silly that someone would kill nearly 3,000 people for insurance fraud money? There are easier ways to make money that don't involve global coverups. Ask Amway.And I'm sure it doesn't cost all that much to douse a small building with gasoline and light it up, but getting a hold of two jumbo jets and wiring three enormous buildings with explosives etc. strikes me as a bit cost prohibitive. Then you've got to factor in lost revenue from leases until you can rebuild, as well as rebuilding costs themselves (add in extra costs for higher safety measures), plus increased insurance premiums and legal costs dealing with all of the above. It's just a guess, but I don't think Silverstein made any money whatsoever in this con.

edit: I haven't even mentioned the high cost of "risk tax" associated with having to hire people to perform extremely dangerous and illegal activities for you.

[Bronze Dog]

It's just a guess, but I don't think Silverstein made any money whatsoever in this con.
And then he's got to pay all the hitmen to silence all the people he worked with to coordinate the operation.

[Sentinel]

"The immediate aim of Guliani's attack was to pressure the PA into paying $400million in rents he contested the agency owed the cityon Laguardia and Kennedy airports. this sum constitutued a significant fraction of the city's projected $2 billion shortfall. But Guliani's wider grievance was directed against what he saw as the agency's skewed alocations in favor of New Jersey. Repeatedly, embarrassed city and state officials of varying political stripes decried the "third world" conditions at Kennedy and Laguardia-in contrast to the sleek terminals and monorail systems at Newark. And Mark Green, the city's left leaning public advocate, who generally found little common cause with the mayor, denounced the Port Authority as "a giant transfer machine that forces New York to cross-subsidize New Jersey's economic developement and low taxes."


"The work of Authorities is carrtied out in the name of the public. Yet the deliberations of an authoriy's executive board and committees remain screened from the publics oversite, as do the details of its finances, which frequently generate a bonanza of private capital flows. This tendancy holds true whether the authority's projects are the sorts of briodges, highways, and tunnel constructions recommended by the patrician visionaries of the Regional Plan Association, or the building of a World trade center, largely at the behest of the city's most influential banker (David Rockefeller) and his brother, the state governor (Nelson Rockeffeller)"


"The financial beauty of a public corporation like the Port Authority is that it capitalizes its projects through the sale of bonds. This allows for enormous public investments that do not directly raise taxes, since the dept an authority incures never appears on the state budget balance sheet. The state, however, is obligated to pick up the tab in the event of a default, making taxpayers potentially liable for projects they never had ab oppurtunity to examine,much less vote for. Thus the public unwittngly collaterizes authority projects. At the same time, it pays directly-through tolls and fees-the interest on bonds the authority may reissue ad infintum."




Divided We Stand
Eric Darton



Sentinel

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I don't think breaking up copyrighted text into multiple posts is a valid circumvention of rule 4.

[Sentinel]

Someone needs to lesrn how to be human again.


Sorry for the superior minded readers who can't see past the lowerhumanity mispell.



Please forgive me, you're so superior.




I hope I can live with it



Sentinel

[Hellbound]

Someone needs to lesrn how to be human again.


Sorry for the superior minded readers who can't see past the lowerhumanity mispell.



Please forgive me, you're so superior.




I hope I can live with it



Sentinel

You're forgiven. We understand you can't always live up to the standards of those with average levels of intelligence or higher.

[60hzxtl]

Someone needs to lesrn how to be human again.
Sorry for the superior minded readers who can't see past the lowerhumanity mispell.
Please forgive me, you're so superior.
I hope I can live with it
Sentinel


I can live with it too. What I can't live with is anyone doing the "Boogieman Shuffle" dancing on the graves of 343 NYC Firefighters.

Chasing the Boogieman and ignoring the guilty - people who hijacked planes, and crashed them into buildings intentionally- aids the guilty, potentially giving them an expectation of reasonable doubt should any of the planers ever come to trial, and be put before a jury.

Hope you can live with that - but you will probably keep chasing the boogie man, and spit on the grave of 343 members of the FDNY.

Your choice.

[Sentinel]

Tune in to find out is dogpoop will rat on sentinel....


Huntsman, only in your retarded dreams





Sentinel

[Hellbound]

Tune in to find out is dogpoop will rat on sentinel....


Huntsman, only in your retarded dreams





Sentinel

Happy to help out, If you feel you must play the martyr, who am I to deny you?

And congratulations on spelling things correctly in that last post. Nice improvement.

[Brainster]

That part cracked me up too. "Hitler invaded two countries, Poland.... and... that other one.... I can't remember it right now".

Wow, and this guy is their researcher.

I get the feeling that he does much of his research with the bong handy.

[Sentinel]

Never has anyone appeared so stupid in response to actual proof of politics.
Maybe you're the one who dances on peoples graves while performing the sicophant shuffle retard.


Just cause you can't handle the truth, don't lable me with your pathetic BS aboput danciong on graves. I was there you on the other probally saw it on tv and think you have some superiority complex cause you wasn't.


I have every right to question who killed my freinds and associates.


So blow


Sentinel

[60hzxtl]

Dance on.

The choice is yours.

How will you feel if they catch a bad guy with the plans, and you are called as his defense witness.

My friends were named Brown, Whalen, and Langone.

Saw it up close and personal. Spent time on the pile. Spent time in the hole. Smelled the smoke. Was still there when they cut the last girder out, and escorted it.

Wipe your chin you are getting some spit on yourself.

[Sentinel]

Really from what agency?
What location did you participate?
Under whose command PD/FD?

What dates?

Which pile?


Did you see the EOC at Ten House? We established that.

Did you hear the warning on 1LIB PLZ 1400HRS on 9-13 before the rain ? That was my call. I worked it with USAR Sacremento.


So keep your bragging silenced or you may find yourself by yourself.


Braggers and broqwnnoser will not be tolerated




Sentinel