Lucky/Unlucky Numbers

[alfaniner]

In this week's Commentary, Randi talks about how the Chinese consider "8" to be a lucky number. I recall that when in Korea, I saw that the elevator in the Seoul Hilton did not have a number for the 4th floor. I found out later that this was considered unlucky, much like the number 13 is here. And of course, 7 here is deemed lucky.

I was thinking about gathering a list about common attributes related to numbers (good and bad) and the culture or group that assigns them. (Let's not consider the grouping of 4,8,15,16,23, and 42, OK? :D )

Something like:

1
2
3
4 (bad, Korea)
5
6
7 (good, U.S.)
8 (good, China)
9
10
11
12
13 (bad, U.S.)
14
etc.

[Ersby]

17 (bad, Italy)

[tsg]

I was told in a college Chinese language class that Chinese hospitals don't have a fourth floor because the words for "four" and "death" differ only by inflection. I have no idea if it's really true.

[ReFLeX]

6, bad, Christianity.
40, good, Christianity.

[Jon.]

4 is bad in Chinese superstition, too.

[macgyver]

I was told in a college Chinese language class that Chinese hospitals don't have a fourth floor because the words for "four" and "death" differ only by inflection. I have no idea if it's really true.

I've never really understood the concept of "no nth floor".

In my mind, the only way you can have no nth floor, is to not build above "n-1"

[tsg]

I've never really understood the concept of "no nth floor".

In my mind, the only way you can have no nth floor, is to not build above "n-1"

Technically, yeah. But to my knowledge there's no hard and fast rule that floors have to be numbered consecutively, either. I've been in several elevators where there is a stop between floors 1 & 2.

[Forty-Two]

6, 28, 496, perfect, mathematics

When I was in China, I was told that 1, 6, 8, and 9 are all lucky numbers. Four is unlucky because it sounds like the word for death.

[gfunkusarelius]

does anyone else wonder about the chinese etymology of 4 if it really does sound the same as "death"? was one influenced by the other or were the two words developed independently??? i know language doesnt come about by someone sitting down and creating it one day, but seems like somewhere along the line someone wouldve said "um the word you are using already exists, it means death" or vice versa. haha

[macgyver]

does anyone else wonder about the chinese etymology of 4 if it really does sound the same as "death"? was one influenced by the other or were the two words developed independently??? i know language doesnt come about by someone sitting down and creating it one day, but seems like somewhere along the line someone wouldve said "um the word you are using already exists, it means death" or vice versa. haha

From what I understand because of the importance of inflection in the various Chinese dialects there are many words that sound the same as other words with completely unrelated meanings. Such as horse and mother-in-law IIRC...

I think there's actually 4 possible pronounciation variations per word (but I'm not a linguist, so I'm sure I'm oversimplifying)

In fact one word in Cantonese could be completely misunderstood in Mandarin and vice versa....

[macgyver]

6, 28, Four is unlucky because it sounds like the word for death.


There's a City within Greater Vancouver, BC named "Richmond". Legend has it that the reason for the overwhelmingly Asian population there is because it sounds like "Rich Man"

[Forty-Two]

There's a City within Greater Vancouver, BC named "Richmond". Legend has it that the reason for the overwhelmingly Asian population there is because it sounds like "Rich Man" It reminds me of one of the mothers in The Joy Luck Club -- She named one son Winston ("wins ton") and the other Vincent ("win cent"). When your language is made up of segments that have individual meanings outside the context of any longer word, it kind of makes sense that you'd be inclined to seek the same meaning in English.

[Bradk3]

From what I understand because of the importance of inflection in the various Chinese dialects there are many words that sound the same as other words with completely unrelated meanings. Such as horse and mother-in-law IIRC...

Obviously, you've never met my mother-in-law.

[macgyver]

Obviously, you've never met my mother-in-law.

that needed some drums and a splash cymbal

[ReFLeX]

From what I understand because of the importance of inflection in the various Chinese dialects there are many words that sound the same as other words with completely unrelated meanings. Such as horse and mother-in-law IIRC...

I think there's actually 4 possible pronounciation variations per word (but I'm not a linguist, so I'm sure I'm oversimplifying)

In fact one word in Cantonese could be completely misunderstood in Mandarin and vice versa....I thought it was mother and goat. But I'm only half-chinese so don't listen to me. (There is 4 in standard Mandarin, but it gets into double digits in some dialects).

[rjh01]

Three has not been mentioned. It is both lucky and unlucky.
Things happen in threes.

3, 7, 21, 40 are magic numbers because they happen more often in the bible then other numbers.

[arthwollipot]

The 13th floor of a particular building here in Canberra is apparently occupied by a government intelligence organisation. So I've heard.

[ospalh]

I was told in a college Chinese language class that Chinese hospitals don't have a fourth floor because the words for "four" and "death" differ only by inflection. I have no idea if it's really true.

I've been to Taiwan and seen a few buildings without a floor number 4. One was even on a university campus. I told my guide that I thought that's a silly superstition but couldn't quite get through, she just replied "No, no, four is an unlucky number in Chinese".

She also said that, for example, they say they want "three plus one" seats in a restaurant, to avoid saying four.

[tsg]

Things happen in threes.

They really happen in thirteens. You just have to wait longer.

[T'ai Chi]

I was told in a college Chinese language class that Chinese hospitals don't have a fourth floor because the words for "four" and "death" differ only by inflection. I have no idea if it's really true.


the words for "four" and "death" differ only by inflection


is true.

4 is si (http://zhongwen.com/d/165/x124.htm).
(down tone)

death is si (http://zhongwen.com/d/166/x186.htm).
(down up tone)

Don't know about the part about actually not having floors in hospitals tho.

[empeake]

In Mexico, "41" means "homosexual" (male). It really isn't considered a bad luck number, although some might see it as such. In most cases, it is just an excuse for some good-natured ribbing when a friend reaches his 41st birthday.

[RSLancastr]

In Mexico, "41" means "homosexual" (male). It really isn't considered a bad luck number, although some might see it as such. In most cases, it is just an excuse for some good-natured ribbing when a friend reaches his 41st birthday.Do you know what the origin of this is? I have a theory.



By the way, I've been told that in some Spanish-speaking countries, a man is only considered "homosexual" if he is on the... receiving end... of male/male sex.

Seems like just a way to get around thinking of one's self as gay...

I don't know if it's true for Mexico, but the subject came up in a conversation with some South American co-workers. One was from Chile, I believe the others were from Brazil, but I could be wrong (this was 20 years ago or so).

[empeake]

Do you know what the origin of this is? I have a theory.

Early in the 20th century, Mexico City police raided a private ball and arrested 41 homosexual men, half of which were dressed as women. The event became known as the "Dance of the 41".

By the way, I've been told that in some Spanish-speaking countries, a man is only considered "homosexual" if he is on the... receiving end... of male/male sex.

Seems like just a way to get around thinking of one's self as gay...

I really can't answer that question, but it seems plausible that some would see it that way.

What does exist in Mexico is what they call a "macho calado", that translates as "proven macho" or "proven man". I refers to a man that has tried homosexual intercourse to prove that he doesn't like it and, therefore, is not gay. :jaw-dropp

There's more to the story of the "41". Back in those days, homosexuality was a crime. In Mexico City, homosexuals were locked up in the "J" section of the city jail. Just as "41" became a synonym for gays, an alliteration of the Spanish name for the letter "J", "joto", became another term to designate homosexuals. Both "41" and "joto" are mild, and can be used in mixed pulbic.

And a last story about the gang of "41". When they were paraded down the streets before being sent to an island prison, a 42nd prisoner in the group began shouting at the crowd: "I'm not gay! I'm not gay! I'm only here because I killed my mother!" Better to be a murderer than homosexual in those days. :)

[RSLancastr]

Early in the 20th century, Mexico City police raided a private ball and arrested 41 homosexual men, half of which were dressed as women. The event became known as the "Dance of the 41".Interesting!

My impromptu theory was totally different...

Take a look at the number, and imagine the two numbers as stick-figures:

41

If you don't see it, never mind. Maybe it's just me.

[empeake]

ITake a look at the number, and imagine the two numbers as stick-figures:

41

If you don't see it, never mind. Maybe it's just me.
I must admit you have a very, very, very active (and filthy) imagination. :D
(BTW, I think I see what you mean.)

[HidariMak]

China isn't the only country to view the number 4 as unlucky. In Japan, both the number 4 and a word for death are the same -- "Shi".

Also, I remember seeing a news story almost three weeks back about expectant mothers in Malaysia wanting induced labour, so that their children would be lucky in life with the birthday of 06-06-06. (I could never figure out the hype for that date. 666 is supposedly the mark of the beast. 06-06-06 is probably somebody's luggage combination.)

[empeake]

999... the mark of the dyslexic beast (or should it be dysgraphic beast?)

[Scott Haley]

By the way, I've been told that in some Spanish-speaking countries, a man is only considered "homosexual" if he is on the... receiving end... of male/male sex.


I have read that in the pagan Roman empire and the Viking culture, "receiving" would cause a man to be held in contempt, while being the other partner (giving?) would not.

[empeake]

I have read that in the pagan Roman empire and the Viking culture, "receiving" would cause a man to be held in contempt, while being the other partner (giving?) would not.
It is always better to give than to receive. :D

[arthwollipot]

What does exist in Mexico is what they call a "macho calado", that translates as "proven macho" or "proven man". I refers to a man that has tried homosexual intercourse to prove that he doesn't like it and, therefore, is not gay. :jaw-dropp

I don't see anything wrong with this, except for the phrase "to prove that he doesn't like it". There's nothing wrong with trying it to see if you like it. The predetermination of the intent is what makes it :jaw-dropp.

Rephrasing this from my own point of view, I experimented with my sexuality and discovered that I was mostly heterosexual.

Although, as I have pointed out, I actually describe myself as bisexual, but I haven't met the right man yet. :)

[tsg]

I have read that in the pagan Roman empire and the Viking culture, "receiving" would cause a man to be held in contempt, while being the other partner (giving?) would not.

AKA "pitching" and "catching".

[Mr. Scott]

By the way, I've been told that in some Spanish-speaking countries,

(snip)

One [person] was from Chile, I believe the others were from Brazil, but I could be wrong (this was 20 years ago or so).


Brazil is a Portuguese-speaking country.



I think there's actually 4 possible pronounciation variations per word (but I'm not a linguist, so I'm sure I'm oversimplifying)

In fact one word in Cantonese could be completely misunderstood in Mandarin and vice versa....

My Cantonese-speaking friend tells me there are 3+1 variations in inflection: the low pitch, high pitch, rising pitch (low--high), and falling pitch (high--low).

The exact pitch doesn't matter -- only the relative pitch, and the interval doesn't matter, although I believe increasing the interval can be used for emphasis.

Someone could publish a nice little novelty book "Lucky and Unlucky Numbers of the World."

[moopet]

I remember being taught to count to ten in Japanese, and that if I wanted to stop at 4, I had to change the intonation. If I used the normal pronunciation* - which is like "shi", but I don't know the English spelling off the top of my head - that I would use when continuing the sequence then I would be saying, "one, two, three, death".


* yes, people, pronunciation is not pronounced or spelt "pronounciation".

[RSLancastr]

Brazil is a Portuguese-speaking country.So it would have you believe. :)

[slingblade]

* yes, people, pronunciation is not pronounced or spelt "pronounciation".

:eye-poppi
Wow, thanks for assuming you're one of the few who knows that, and you're the only one of them who posts here.

[alfaniner]

...Someone could publish a nice little novelty book "Lucky and Unlucky Numbers of the World."

That was my intention, of sorts. Or at least to create the reference for someone to do it. After all, I'm sure many college students get some good psych thesis information from reading this Forum.

[ChaoticLimbs]

I have found that irrational numbers are poor choices for lotteries where all the balls are labeled with whole positive integers. Imaginary numbers are even worse.

[moopet]

:eye-poppi
Wow, thanks for assuming you're one of the few who knows that, and you're the only one of them who posts here.
np

[BillyJoe]

Early in the 20th century, Mexico City police raided a private ball and arrested 41 homosexual men, half of which were dressed as women. The event became known as the "Dance of the 41".Two questions:
1) How, exactly, can half of 41 men be dressed as women?
2) And shouldn't it be "half of whom"?

[empeake]

Two questions:
1) How, exactly, can half of 41 men be dressed as women?
Twenty is half of 41 if you consider a precision of cero decimal digits.

2) And shouldn't it be "half of whom"?
Yes. I'm sorry my second language is not up to your grammatical standards.

[BillyJoe]

Well....

1) All I can say is: Thanks for the maths lesson.
2) You could have said: Thanks for the grammar lesson.

:)

BJ

[empeake]

2) You could have said: Thanks for the grammar lesson.
It would have been a better option. :)

[Kimpatsu]

In this week's Commentary, Randi talks about how the Chinese consider "8" to be a lucky number. I recall that when in Korea, I saw that the elevator in the Seoul Hilton did not have a number for the 4th floor. I found out later that this was considered unlucky, much like the number 13 is here.
Would you like to know why?
In Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, the number four "shi/shieh" is a homonym for the stem of the verb "to die". Similarly, 9 is avoided because it is a homonym for the stem of the verb "to suffer".

[Kimpatsu]

I was told in a college Chinese language class that Chinese hospitals don't have a fourth floor because the words for "four" and "death" differ only by inflection. I have no idea if it's really true.
Yes, it is true. See my other post in this thread on the topic.
(Asian expert: that's me.) :D

[Kimpatsu]

does anyone else wonder about the chinese etymology of 4 if it really does sound the same as "death"? was one influenced by the other or were the two words developed independently??? i know language doesnt come about by someone sitting down and creating it one day, but seems like somewhere along the line someone wouldve said "um the word you are using already exists, it means death" or vice versa. haha
I think the terms arose independently of each other, and then one day the emperor's advisors (these are the same guys who divined everything using feng shui, remember) suddenly looked at what they were saying and exclaimed, "Holy ****!"

[Kimpatsu]

From what I understand because of the importance of inflection in the various Chinese dialects there are many words that sound the same as other words with completely unrelated meanings. Such as horse and mother-in-law IIRC...
Horse and mother. Both are "ma".
This, "My mother scolded me" and "My horse jumped into the brown paper bag" are only a matter of inflection...

[BillyJoe]

4 in 5, crikey! :D

[Roboramma]

The building I live in apparently has 32 floors. Except that there is no 4th, 13th, 14th, or 24th floor.

A friend of mine in Hong Kong says he gets a good deal on his rent because he lives on the fourth floor of his building - though I think the rent's low because it's carpy place...

People are funny.

I always thought that the number 8 was supposed to be lucky in china. A friend recently told me that 7 was lucky as well. 8 being lucky for money and 7 being lucky for family or something. I have no idea, but he knows a lot more about china than I do, so...

[RSLancastr]

Two questions:
1) How, exactly, can half of 41 men be dressed as women?
2) And shouldn't it be "half of whom"?If each man was dressed like a woman from the waist down, I think that would account for both of these.

[macgyver]

Horse and mother. Both are "ma".
This, "My mother scolded me" and "My horse jumped into the brown paper bag" are only a matter of inflection...

Hey, well I was pretty close! I remember that from a book on learning Chinese that I bought in '88....Interestingly, they opened the book by basically telling me to not to bother. The chinese have a saying about foreigners trying to speak Chinese....and it's not very encouraging.

So can you tell me why Asian cultures put so much importance and emphasis on "luck"? Is it because they have a much more realistic view of the odds of accidentally dying?