I hope you die

[Tricky]

Yeah, I wrote the topic title to attract attention, but it's really a question. When is it okay to hope for the death of someone? I can think of a few examples where it is obvious, like when someone is in horrible pain with little or no hope of recovery. I can also envision a grieving family whose love one was murdered and understand why they would wish for the execution of the person who did it.

But there are lots of iffy cases. Is it okay to wish a person you don't really know to die, like, oh let's say Hugo Chavez of Venezuela? (No, I'm not going Fallwell on you, it's just an example.) Or suppose you could see a ticking time bomb, like a Jim Jones or David Koresh and realize that one death would be better than many?

And returning to sickness, what if someone had a year or two left, but if they lived that time, they would make someone else very miserable. (I'm thinking of caregiver situations here, for example where one elderly person is taking care of another.)

And what about someone who is just completely useless and a drain on society? I know a few of these too. Would I be wrong to wish that such a "waste of DNA" would just pop off and save us the trouble of taking care of them?

Note that I am not talking about killing, only about wishing. Are you wrong to wish death on anybody?

[Piscivore]

I hope not.

[rjh01]

You have two questions here.
1. Is it OK to wish death?
2. Is it OK to kill someone? (is this what you meant?)
Which did you mean?


Question 1.
As far as I know there is no law that says you cannot wish for a person to die, as long as you do not carry it out.

Question 2.
There are no good answers to this one.

[UserGoogol]

It's difficult to really quantify the moral value of a wish. Assuming that wishes do not have the power to actually come true (which I imagine most people on these forums would agree on) the only person effected by a wish is yourself.

I suppose that wishing for the death of someone who totally doesn't deserve it might make you into a less "virtuous" human and therefore make your actions in the future less good. But it's a very vague and indirect realtionship, and there are a lot of variables involved, so I don't think you can call it "wrong" per se. Suboptimal, certainly, but not wrong.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I have a hard time claiming that any thought, desire, wish, hope, or the like is wrong. Spending too much time dwelling on your wish that another die may tempt you into actions that might be morally troublesome (assuming you are the type to be morally troubled), but the wish itself I have no trouble with.

[fuelair]

Yeah, I wrote the topic title to attract attention, but it's really a question. When is it okay to hope for the death of someone? I can think of a few examples where it is obvious, like when someone is in horrible pain with little or no hope of recovery. I can also envision a grieving family whose love one was murdered and understand why they would wish for the execution of the person who did it.

But there are lots of iffy cases. Is it okay to wish a person you don't really know to die, like, oh let's say Hugo Chavez of Venezuela? (No, I'm not going Fallwell on you, it's just an example.) Or suppose you could see a ticking time bomb, like a Jim Jones or David Koresh and realize that one death would be better than many?

And returning to sickness, what if someone had a year or two left, but if they lived that time, they would make someone else very miserable. (I'm thinking of caregiver situations here, for example where one elderly person is taking care of another.)

And what about someone who is just completely useless and a drain on society? I know a few of these too. Would I be wrong to wish that such a "waste of DNA" would just pop off and save us the trouble of taking care of them?

Note that I am not talking about killing, only about wishing. Are you wrong to wish death on anybody?

Skipping over the specific question, if a member of my family/friend/assorted other categories are murdered,tortured, etc. I do not wish the guilty to be dead. Well, not until after several weeks of education on the incorrectness of their act/s.

[Jas]

Note that I am not talking about killing, only about wishing. Are you wrong to wish death on anybody?

Does wishing accomplish anything?

I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with desires, it's just when you act on them (or tell the person in question. I can see that not going over too well.)

Remember, insanity not knowing which impulses to say 'no' to.

[RandFan]

Note that I am not talking about killing, only about wishing. Are you wrong to wish death on anybody? I don't know if it is wrong. To be frank I wish death to Fred Phelps. Maybe that is wrong. You pose a good question. I'm willing to consider arguments that it is immoral, leads to obsessive behavior, is counter productive and that such thoughts have no place in modern civilized society. I could be persuaded that it is wrong.

Until then my fantasy involves Fred getting hit by a bus.

[clarsct]

No.

Acts carry consequences. Thoughts do not.

As for making you a 'worse' person, I would need to see some evidence for that. Good luck acquiring it.

I would even go so far as to say that killing someone like Phelps would not be wrong. Killing someone like Koresh would be a boon to society.

Some people are Pro-Life. I'm Pro-Death.

[athon]

Hm, I think the word of debate here is 'wrong'. In what capacity do you mean this word?

1) Pragmatically wrong: In other words, the action will prevent certain outcomes you otherwise want. It's wrong to put sugar in the petrol tank of your car, for example, as this will prevent you from driving the car. Of course this relates to other desires, so it becomes a comparison of your various wishes.

2) Morally wrong: as morals aren't objective, this depends on your personal philosophy. For me, the closest I could do would be to wish for an alternative situation. Yet as Jas said, wishing is not the same as enacting. I doubt that I could act in any fashion which would directly and knowingly lead to somebody's death, even if I might believe believe that the situation would be better for it.

3) Legally; a mine-field of debate. Legally acting towards somebody's death is a crime in most situations. Wishing it becomes a grey area when those wishes manifest into certain actions.

Athon

[infornography]

I see it as a matter of how fervently you wish it.

In the case of euthanasia, not at all. I personally have no moral objections to wishing someone elses pain would end by means of their death is certain situations.

If the wish is more malicious then if it is a passing thought and an idle consideration, then no, thats normal. If it is a consuming and passionate desire then yes.

[El Greco]

Assuming you are honest enough with yourself to admit that you really wish someone's death... could that change if you were shown that such a wish is "not OK" or "wrong" ? Mind you, I'm not saying that it is or it isn't wrong. I just wonder whether labeling it "wrong" can change it.

[clarsct]

"if I were shown"?

How, exactly? I'm slightly confused.

[El Greco]

Logically. Isn't that the question of the op ? Whether (and when) it's right or wrong ? I just wonder, if we assume we do reach a conclusion on that question, could that change anything ?

[Huntster]

Yeah, I wrote the topic title to attract attention, but it's really a question. When is it okay to hope for the death of someone?...

Isn't just a matter of timing?

...Are you wrong to wish death on anybody?

It depends on the motive of your wish.

[Kevin_Lowe]

For that matter is it logically inconsistent to wish someone were dead, but not be willing to kill them if you knew you could get away with it? It seems to me that it is logically inconsistent.

Maybe that's why wishing someone was dead is dangerous. Logically, it leads to killing them if you get the chance.

[Meffy]

Or the old familiar "Will nobody rid me of this meddlesome ____?" schtick.

[Pauliesonne]

I've always wanted Bush and Blair to die.

[rocketdodger]

For that matter is it logically inconsistent to wish someone were dead, but not be willing to kill them if you knew you could get away with it? It seems to me that it is logically inconsistent.

Maybe that's why wishing someone was dead is dangerous. Logically, it leads to killing them if you get the chance.

This is my sentiment exactly.

If you want somebody to die, then you should be prepared to (attempt to) kill them yourself if presented with the opportunity. If you would not do so, then don't wish their death.

Otherwise, you are someone with a weak will. Not that this is a bad thing, it just won't get you any points in valhalla.

[RandFan]

For that matter is it logically inconsistent to wish someone were dead, but not be willing to kill them if you knew you could get away with it? It seems to me that it is logically inconsistent.

Maybe that's why wishing someone was dead is dangerous. Logically, it leads to killing them if you get the chance. I live for danger. ;)

[Meadmaker]

I would like to see Osama bin Laden die. He wants to kill people I know and like, and I think he, personally, is contributing to their deaths, and I can't see any way to stop it other than him dying. Even if he were held captive, I think his existence would inspire people to murder. Also, I don't think he would be replaced by just any other fundamentalist terrorist. I think his personal appeal matters, and contributes to the killing. He's not solely responsible, by any means, but I think he contributes and makes it worse. Therefore, I want him dead.

I suppose we could suggest a hypothetical alternate universe where he repents and decides to renounce terrorism and Islam, and joins JREF, and maybe that would be better. Assuming that doesn't happen....dead.

[Rustle]

I spent the last four years doing direct care for dementia sufferers. In a house of about 14 clients, about 7 died every year. I was always happy when I heard that someone had finally passed, and I don't giving a flying **** what anyone thinks about that. To want those people to continue to live indefinately, (as I assure you, certain family members did), is to desire indignity and demonstrable, sometimes horrific suffering for another human being.

Outside of that very specific example though, I would say this: it is always ok to want someone to die! No, for real! It is not always ok to say so, and it is almost never ok to actually do something about it (read: please don't murder people).

The idea that you should control your thoughts as tightly as your behavior is, in my opinion, the fictitious territory of religion.

[Rustle]

For that matter is it logically inconsistent to wish someone were dead, but not be willing to kill them if you knew you could get away with it? It seems to me that it is logically inconsistent.

Maybe that's why wishing someone was dead is dangerous. Logically, it leads to killing them if you get the chance.

Uhhhh

You only want things that you are prepared to act on? Now that seems dangerous to me.

Edit: It seems the question has shifted to "Can you control what you think and desire?"

[Dogdoctor]

There is so much psychological stuff that goes into this topic. Superficially , I think many people secretly or not, wish that someone would die at some point in their life. From my perspective typically this sentiment is a sign that the person doing the wishing has psychological problems such as anger management problems. While it might be ok in the perspective that lots of people have the same problem it is not ok from the perspective that it is not a functional way of thinking. I am not a psychologist but it seems clear to me that it just creates more anger to think that and so doesn't help to deal with the issues that make you feel that way.

[Tricky]

Interesting comments, all, and I may respond to some of them later. But first I wanted to reveal what inspired this thread.

I grew up in Alabama and (somehow) was a liberal. I intentionally went to a black high school and was the only white there. I thought racism and segregation were the worst evils on earth. And of course, my nemesis was George Wallace, then the Governor, husband of the Governor or whatever, but the most powerful man in Alabama. I hated that man with the kind of passion reserved for people you don't know. I actively hoped he would be assassinated.

Then he was shot by Arthur Bremer. I saw it on the news and my first thoughts were, "Good. I hope he dies".

Looking back, I am appalled at myself for thinking such thoughts, even if they were emotional rather than carefully considered. I wondered how I could ever justify assassination as a tool of statecraft. But I could not help but feel relieved that he could not become even more powerful. And I worried that racists would make him a martyr to their cause.

Interestingly, Wallace survived and even mellowed after this. In his later years, he renounced racism and segregation.

But I still remember those first thoughts with a mixture of confusion and shame. I think it was the moment when I realized that extremist positions are wrong, regardless of which extreme you are on.

I still wish certain people were dead, but not with the kind of anger and vehemence that I once did. I wish it because I think it would be better for humanity if they were dead. Nothing personal. I don't hate racists anymore and I would never think about murdering them myself. I just want them to change or disappear. If "disappear" means "die", then that is as it is. I will feel pity for their families, but still hold to my feelings that they are better off... no... WE are better off with them being dead. I can't change that feeling, no matter how much I try.

[RandFan]

Interesting comments, all, and I may respond to some of them later. But first I wanted to reveal what inspired this thread.

I grew up in Alabama and (somehow) was a liberal. I intentionally went to a black high school and was the only white there. I thought racism and segregation were the worst evils on earth. And of course, my nemesis was George Wallace, then the Governor, husband of the Governor or whatever, but the most powerful man in Alabama. I hated that man with the kind of passion reserved for people you don't know. I actively hoped he would be assassinated.

Then he was shot by Arthur Bremer. I saw it on the news and my first thoughts were, "Good. I hope he dies".

Looking back, I am appalled at myself for thinking such thoughts, even if they were emotional rather than carefully considered. I wondered how I could ever justify assassination as a tool of statecraft. But I could not help but feel relieved that he could not become even more powerful. And I worried that racists would make him a martyr to their cause.

Interestingly, Wallace survived and even mellowed after this. In his later years, he renounced racism and segregation.

But I still remember those first thoughts with a mixture of confusion and shame. I think it was the moment when I realized that extremist positions are wrong, regardless of which extreme you are on.

I still wish certain people were dead, but not with the kind of anger and vehemence that I once did. I wish it because I think it would be better for humanity if they were dead. Nothing personal. I don't hate racists anymore and I would never think about murdering them myself. I just want them to change or disappear. If "disappear" means "die", then that is as it is. I will feel pity for their families, but still hold to my feelings that they are better off... no... WE are better off with them being dead. I can't change that feeling, no matter how much I try.Thank you. Great post.

I think there is something to be said of not letting others rule our emotions even if it is only to a small degree. Something I remember from perhaps an apochryphal tale of a POW when asked why he did not hate his captors, because he said that was the only part of him that was free. I like it. I'm still leaning to Fred Phelp being hit by a bus but I think I could learn to not let him control my emotions. I think that ties into what Dogdoctor also said.

[clarsct]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Kevin_Lowe: Are you telling me that you act on every impulse?

Tricky, Randfan:
I do see what you're saying. Letting emotion rule your life can be a bad thing. Allowing no emotion into your life can be just as bad. I think it important to strike a balance. That said, I do not necessarily hate the folks I wish dead. I'm not sure I hate Phelps...I hate what he stands for. I have no emotion over wishing him dead. It's like putting down a rabid dog. It's a good thing, but not something I'm going to have a raging hatred and obsess over. Not something I would put a second thought on ten second after it's over, really. Needed doing, that's all.

If I knew where Bin Laden was, I'd be on a plane. What's the bounty? $30,000,000? Yeah. I'm there. Does money change things? Yer gaddamned right it does. However, he also falls under the 'rabid dog' catagory. Makes the decision that much easier, at least to me.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Kevin_Lowe: Are you telling me that you act on every impulse?

No, but you and Rustle both took it that way, so I suppose I'd better clear it up.

By "wish someone were dead" I meant a kind of well thought-out, sincere conviction that the world would be a better place if a specific person was dead. Not a desire to see someone dead based on a momentary flash of irritation.

I don't think it's irrational to curb a desire to kill someone based on a moment of annoyance.

If you wished someone were dead in a well thought-out way, I think it would be irrational not to take the opportunity to kill them if you knew you could get away with it. It's a good form of irrationality for society to ingrain in people, but it's still irrational. If the world would be a better place without a given person, and you can get rid of that person, logically you should kill them. Otherwise what does it mean to think that the world would be better off without them?

[clarsct]

Getting caught.

Is it worth the hassle of getting rid of the guy? That's the question. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

For some, maybe...for others, not so much. I guess it hinges on how badly you want the guy dead, doesn't it? I think the world would be better off without Phelps. But I also have several reservations. Is it worth it to go do? Is it worth the personal hassle? Is someone just going to take his place? Will I accomplish anything worthwhile? Is it worth dying for?


Hmmmm.

I'm not entirely sure it is. Phelps is a Cu**, true. But he's a worthless Cu**. He's a crackpot. Now, should he get a large enough following to be elected to public office....well....now that could be dangerous.

Another factor is oppourtunity and cost. Take Bin Laden. First grad Cu**. But how do you find him? How do you get TO him? And what's the cost? I am a man of limited means. If I knew where he was going to be.....well...now that is an advantage that I might be willing to max a few credit cards for. But I don't have that knowledge, and I am not willing to risk my life by walking into a war zone unawares.

If you could kill someone who desperately needs it without getting caught, would you?

Maybe that's a more interesting take on it.

[Roboramma]

To Kevin,

I'm not sure I agree with what you're saying. I think there's a difference between wishing that someone were dead, and actually wanting to kill them (even if you were sure you could get away with it).
The difference I see is similar to the difference between wanting someone else's money, and wanting to steal their money from them. Or, to put it better, wanting someone else to give his/her money to a worthy cause, and wanting to steal it for that same cause (assuming again that you could get away with it).

To Tricky:

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with wishing someone dead. I think there are plenty of people that it we'd be better off without, and others who really do deserve death.
And again, I do think that's different from saying that they should be killed (though in some cases I might think that as well). A religious person might make that distinction by saying that such things should be left to god, but I'm not religious.
I make the distinction by looking at it from a standpoint of action. I don't like the idea of us (any of us) taking it on ourselves to decide who lives and dies, because such power is dangerous. Sometimes we're wrong. There are some people that I think should die, but I might be wrong about that, and I don't think I have the right to make that decision (well, maybe in some very clear cut cases, but certainly not in all such cases). On the other hand, if that person were to die, or were killed by someone not connected to me, I might be happy about it.
Which doesn't even mean that I don't think the murderer should be tried for that act.

Similarly there are some books that I'd be happy if no one bothered reading any more, and they just fell out of circulation. I might even hope for that to happen. But I wouldn't support the banning of those books.

To sum up - I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping someone dies, at least in some cases. There are fewer cases where it isn't wrong to hope that someone is killed, though I think those exist as well. There are even fewer cases where I feel it is right to actually do the killing, but I think there are some of those also.

Cool thread, by the way.

[Marc L]

Note that I am not talking about killing, only about wishing. Are you wrong to wish death on anybody?

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."-Anonymous

Honestly, your thoughts are your own. You're justified in having them simply because you have them. What I think of them, or what others think of them doesn't matter.

Thoughts on their own have no power (despite the claims of psychics). You wishing me dead isn't going to cause me to fall down the stairs and die. Having that thought doesn't make you immoral any more than you wishing I won the lottery makes you moral.

Even if you were to translate your thoughts into action (ie, you came to my house and pushed me down the stairs), it would be the action that was immoral, not the thought.

As for your character, your thoughts do affect (and are affected by) that (at least in my opinion). That you might wish me dead (for no apparent reason) shows a bad character-unless, as someone pointed out, it was out of momentary frustration (such as at the fact that I keep accusing you of wanting me dead). The fact that you regret having such thoughts (at least, I hope you do, I don't want to have to keep looking around me whenever I try to go down the stairs), in my opinion, shows that you have good character.

Ultimately, I wouldn't worry too much about what goes on between your ears. Pay attention to what comes out of your mouth and your actions, and you'll be ok.

Marc

[Beerina]

Outside of that very specific example though, I would say this: it is always ok to want someone to die! No, for real! It is not always ok to say so, and it is almost never ok to actually do something about it (read: please don't murder people).

The idea that you should control your thoughts as tightly as your behavior is, in my opinion, the fictitious territory of religion.

Yet if you believe in certain religions, God would know your wish and would hold you accountable for it.

I s'pose I'm in for it since I wish God were dead. The vast majority of people are Hellbound; hence if God died, and then they all simply died, they'd be better off than if this "good" god existed.

[EnanMyHero]

I wish randomly that people I saw died. I also usually have some cool way of seeing them die like a molatav cocktail bursting on them and burning them, or gutting them and watching them try to hold their intestines in... Do I ever feel bad about it? nope... Course that's just the sociopath in me... darn little angel of death in my head always tryin to take over...

I have issues >_< :footinmou :yikes: :catfight:

[CP489]

I don't know if it is wrong. To be frank I wish death to Fred Phelps. Maybe that is wrong. You pose a good question. I'm willing to consider arguments that it is immoral, leads to obsessive behavior, is counter productive and that such thoughts have no place in modern civilized society. I could be persuaded that it is wrong.

Until then my fantasy involves Fred getting hit by a bus.

Actually, I'd like to see him forcefully involved in a homosexual orgy, and die in it. Poetic justice, if you will.

[RandFan]

Actually, I'd like to see him forcefully involved in a homosexual orgy, and die in it. Poetic justice, if you will. I like it. It's evil and twisted but I like it.

[Kopji]

Wishing someone were dead seems like a normal temptation to solve difficult problems an easy way. The temptation seems natural and common. I suspect there are few of us who have not spun the idea at one time or another.

It is better to try and solve the problem, rather than just eliminate the symptoms.

Fred Phelps is a symptom of a world that gives insanity a place to live, fester, and be called holy and good.

[Beerina]

A wise man once said, "Hell is other people."

Sounds about right to me.

[Meffy]

[of Phred Felps] Actually, I'd like to see him forcefully involved in a homosexual orgy, and die in it. Poetic justice, if you will.
I'd rather that he should get caught involved in said activity of his own accord, and that his cause should die of embarrassment.

[l0rca]

Yeah, I wrote the topic title to attract attention, but it's really a question. When is it okay to hope for the death of someone? I can think of a few examples where it is obvious, like when someone is in horrible pain with little or no hope of recovery. I can also envision a grieving family whose love one was murdered and understand why they would wish for the execution of the person who did it.

But there are lots of iffy cases. Is it okay to wish a person you don't really know to die, like, oh let's say Hugo Chavez of Venezuela? (No, I'm not going Fallwell on you, it's just an example.) Or suppose you could see a ticking time bomb, like a Jim Jones or David Koresh and realize that one death would be better than many?

And returning to sickness, what if someone had a year or two left, but if they lived that time, they would make someone else very miserable. (I'm thinking of caregiver situations here, for example where one elderly person is taking care of another.)

And what about someone who is just completely useless and a drain on society? I know a few of these too. Would I be wrong to wish that such a "waste of DNA" would just pop off and save us the trouble of taking care of them?

Note that I am not talking about killing, only about wishing. Are you wrong to wish death on anybody?

What do you mean by wrong? What sort of value system are we operating off of here? An etheral one? So far as I'm concerned, hope's physical consequences rest almost completely inside the body (I'm taking into account any psychophysiological consequences as well).

I'll actually go so far as to claim that any hope, no matter ill or not, that helps satisfy some mental need of the thinker, is a positive one, so long as it doesn't outwardly project into a reasonably negative situation.

Musing in another direction, this talk of sappers of society is an interesting one. It's a bit too extreme, if you ask me, to wish death upon anyone simply for sapping society. We have enough fat on our bones to withstand a few leeches. Does the culling's purpose equal the being's losing their life?

(I apologize if my post is ignorant in relation to other replies. I didn't read any...)

[Huntster]

...Interestingly, Wallace survived and even mellowed after this. In his later years, he renounced racism and segregation.....

Did it from his wheelchair, too.

Some folks take a lot of killing before they're "dead".

Is it better to be an open racist publically until such a moment, or being a "quiet" racist until the end?

Are you or I "the judge"?

[Piscivore]

Is it better to be an open racist publically until such a moment, or being a "quiet" racist until the end?

That latter. If he's "quiet", he's not acting to infringe anyone's civil rights, and he's not endorsing, supporting, planting or validating the idea in others.

Are you or I "the judge"?
Over a fictional invisible sky-daddy? Yes.

[Starrman]

I like it. It's evil and twisted but I like it.

And after death, he is sent to Hell and sentenced to bl@w John Holmes for eternitiy.

[Tricky]

I think we pretty much have an established consensus that wanting some bad person to die and even fantasizing about killing them is okay, and probably even unavoidable.

Now I'll tell you the other reason for starting this thread, which will also explain my absence from it.

My father-in-law is dying. He has an enormous, inoperable tumor on the side of his face which is not responding to treatment. There really is no hope for recovery. The best we can hope for is comfort in the remainder of his days, which won't be very many, a few weeks at most.

Because the hospital can't treat him, they plan to discharge him. Since he has no insurance of any kind, he will be coming to live... and die... with my wife and me. We have hospice care planned and we have been assured that there will be people to help us out, but this is a very tough thing to deal with, especially for Ms. Tricky. She's going nuts worrying that she can't make his last few days perfect.

As the "strong one" I'm trying to take care of as much as I can, but I'm finding it is messing with my mind too. I find myself secretly hoping that he would have some kind of attack that would carry him off quickly and painlessly. Some of it is not wanting him to suffer, but some of it is pure selfishness about not wanting to go through this. I'm wracked with guilt, and I don't have time for guilt right now.

And the thing is, I like my father-in-law, though we've never been terribly close and I've been a little annoyed with him because he hasn't worked since I've known him (since he was 54). Still, as in-laws go, he has been pretty good.

So now we agree it's okay to wish bad guys were dead. How about good guys?

[EnanMyHero]

I don't think it's wrong. I mean I think it's ok to wish that his suffering will end quickly even if there is some selfish motivation. When my 2 year old came down with ALL (acute lymphoblastic leukemia) and a sever fungal infection he was pretty much given only a 5% chance of survival. I never wished he would die to end his suffering, but I'm sure there were people out there who secretly did. And that's fine tho kinda saddening to me since he was always smiling and what not. In January he died of heart arithmia, we think due to the 20+ medications he was on at the same time. But the wonderous thing is when they did the autopsy they found NO fungus at all! He had beat that 5% even tho in the end his heart couldn't take the meds.

So in summation I don't find it wrong at all to wish anyone death... but again that's the just sociopath in me... :o

[Tricky]

I don't think it's wrong. I mean I think it's ok to wish that his suffering will end quickly even if there is some selfish motivation. When my 2 year old came down with ALL (acute lymphoblastic leukemia) and a sever fungal infection he was pretty much given only a 5% chance of survival. I never wished he would die to end his suffering, but I'm sure there were people out there who secretly did. And that's fine tho kinda saddening to me since he was always smiling and what not. In January he died of heart arithmia, we think due to the 20+ medications he was on at the same time. But the wonderous thing is when they did the autopsy they found NO fungus at all! He had beat that 5% even tho in the end his heart couldn't take the meds.

So in summation I don't find it wrong at all to wish anyone death... but again that's the just sociopath in me... :o
I recall your story well. Roadtoad kept us apprised with numerous gut-wrenching posts. I deserve a cold slap in the face for feeling sorry about my situation when there are so may stories much worse than mine.

But if there were any reasonable hope for my FIL, I'd probably feel different. As it is, there is virtually none. Still, I should be reminded to be more empathetic because they are his days to spend as he chooses, and not as I would wish.

[RandFan]

I think we pretty much have an established consensus that wanting some bad person to die and even fantasizing about killing them is okay, and probably even unavoidable.

Now I'll tell you the other reason for starting this thread, which will also explain my absence from it.

My father-in-law is dying. He has an enormous, inoperable tumor on the side of his face which is not responding to treatment. There really is no hope for recovery. The best we can hope for is comfort in the remainder of his days, which won't be very many, a few weeks at most.

Because the hospital can't treat him, they plan to discharge him. Since he has no insurance of any kind, he will be coming to live... and die... with my wife and me. We have hospice care planned and we have been assured that there will be people to help us out, but this is a very tough thing to deal with, especially for Ms. Tricky. She's going nuts worrying that she can't make his last few days perfect.

As the "strong one" I'm trying to take care of as much as I can, but I'm finding it is messing with my mind too. I find myself secretly hoping that he would have some kind of attack that would carry him off quickly and painlessly. Some of it is not wanting him to suffer, but some of it is pure selfishness about not wanting to go through this. I'm wracked with guilt, and I don't have time for guilt right now.

And the thing is, I like my father-in-law, though we've never been terribly close and I've been a little annoyed with him because he hasn't worked since I've known him (since he was 54). Still, as in-laws go, he has been pretty good.

So now we agree it's okay to wish bad guys were dead. How about good guys?Hi Tricky,

Suddenly that which seemed so fired up and important to me doesn't seem so much anymore. Everything I can think to say at the moment seems trite. I'm sorry.

A few years back my Father-in-Law developed Alzheimers. I loved and admired him. He since passed away. My wife and I are the only ones who lived in the same town as my in-laws. As his health declined I spent more and more time helping. I emptied urine bags, inserted his catheter and cleaned him up. This was very difficult for me to do. I felt I was robbing him of his dignity but it needed to be done so I always did it with that in mind and remembered tried to assist him as best I could and minimize any insult.

I had some conflicting feelings and felt relief when he passed. I then felt terribly guilty for having felt that way.

I understand.

[Roadtoad]

Painful though it is to discuss, I'm reminded of an old scoutmaster. I'm reminded of waking up in the middle of the night, and finding his hand where it damned well should not have been... (No, you don't need to know any more.)

Yes, there's some people I would like to see die. I'd like to see them die slowly. Buried up to their necks in an anthill is too damned fast. The idea of Fred Phelps, for example, (a tip of the hat to RandFan), slowly being roasted alive over molten steel has a particular appeal to me. The idea of those f***ing parasites plaguing people like Kelly J and those she serves suffering through what Kelly's going though has even more of an appeal; for them to endure the same torment that they've subjected innocent people to is a form of living death, and they damned well deserve it.

Not too far out, I hope.

[Dogdoctor]

I think such wishes either way is OK but then again those would be nonfunctional thoughts (unless you are planning on killing someone in which case they are dangerous thoughts). If you wish a bad person dead OK so what? But does it accomplish anything? Will it help you to deal with them?Perhaps it might make you feel better to have those thoughts but not me. If you wish a good person dead to stop their suffering will it help them? Will it help you to think those thoughts? It doesn't help me to think like that, though perhaps others will find those thoughts some use. OK to think it , sure, as long as you aren't planning on acting on those thoughts, but from a perspective of economics they aren't useful thoughts to me.

[Marc L]

I deserve a cold slap in the face for feeling sorry about my situation when there are so may stories much worse than mine.

No you don't. Your pain is just as important to you as others is to them. You have the same right to your friends comforting you as they do.

Marc

[EnanMyHero]

No you don't. Your pain is just as important to you as others is to them. You have the same right to your friends comforting you as they do.

Marc

Yeah I agree. A slap in the face is uncalled for. Sure my story was sad, so is yours. All I have to say is just try and show the guy a good time and make it as enjoyable as you can without overly sacraficing your happiness.

[Zep]

I would wish someone to die only if it benefited them to do so. Someone suffering, in pain, unrecoverable, no hope of any decent quality of life, and yet kept alive to linger longer to enjoy the pain, seems to me a perfect candidate. The intention in wishing them dead is to end their suffering, and the sooner the better.

As for people like RT's wayward scoutmaster, and others proven to be of the nastiest persuasion, I would not wish them dead. I would not shed one tear or feel one pang of sorrow if they DID die, but I would not wish them so. I would much prefer them to stay alive...and to suffer appropriate ongoing punishment while doing so. I can be a genuinely cruel bastard, in their cases. If dead, they simply get to avoid their deserved punishment. They can die later...MUCH later.

People like Fred Phelps I find pathetic, tragic and demented. And I would much prefer that they were alive to be the target of ongoing public ridicule, than dead and a permanent martyr to their twisted, bitter cause.