Church?

[Marc L]

Hi all. I doubt anyone here remembers me. I posted briefly for a couple of months, and then, due to being out to sea with an extremely slow connection (and a busy work schedule), I was unable to post at all. Now that we're returning east towards home (an activity, which, ironically, is causing us to lose sleep), I can be a little more active.

My wife emailed me this morning with a request that I go to church with her the first Sunday that I'm home. I don't know how to respond to this. On the one hand, she's saying that she has no intention of proselytizing (I'm sure I misspelled that), and that it's only the one week, but on the other, I'm not overly convinced that her church (an Episcopalian one) won't attempt something.

She says it'll mean a lot to her if I go, and I've asked her why (given the time differences, I don't expect a reply until later), but my initial reaction is "no".

My question to you guys is how in the heck do I tell her this without sounding like a total jerk?

Marc

[Cyphermage]

Hi all. I doubt anyone here remembers me. I posted briefly for a couple of months, and then, due to being out to sea with an extremely slow connection (and a busy work schedule), I was unable to post at all. Now that we're returning east towards home (an activity, which, ironically, is causing us to lose sleep), I can be a little more active.

My wife emailed me this morning with a request that I go to church with her the first Sunday that I'm home. I don't know how to respond to this. On the one hand, she's saying that she has no intention of proselytizing (I'm sure I misspelled that), and that it's only the one week, but on the other, I'm not overly convinced that her church (an Episcopalian one) won't attempt something.

She says it'll mean a lot to her if I go, and I've asked her why (given the time differences, I don't expect a reply until later), but my initial reaction is "no".

My question to you guys is how in the heck do I tell her this without sounding like a total jerk?

Marc

I think the key to peaceful co-existence with churches, is to recognize that their usefulness lies in their function as community meeting places, which coordinate efforts to help those who are dealing with various catastrophes in their lives.

There are plenty of people who go there each Sunday, because of the community aspects, and don't believe a word of the doctrine.

Some churches are less obnoxious than others. I happen to like the Lutherans, because the local church here feeds the destitute regardless of their religious affiliation, provides emergency rent assistance, and does other charitable work, particularly with homeless youth.

Episcopalians aren't bad either.

Going to church isn't an endorsement of the mythology. It's just a social occasion you are sharing with your wife. Lower your expectations, and just go with the flow.

It's all part of picking your battles, and not sweating the small stuff. Humor the meat puppets in their childlike need for rituals, and realize that you dwell on a higher plane. Smile and nod a lot.

[max]

Email her that you want to talk this through with her and saying it's not really for you. As individuals we should be allowed to make our own choices and not be controlled by what others want us to do. There is compromise in a partnership but one shouldn't have to do what one has no interest in.
Was she interested in attending church when you first met?

[Marc L]

Email her that you want to talk this through with her and saying it's not really for you. As individuals we should be allowed to make our own choices and not be controlled by what others want us to do. There is compromise in a partnership but one shouldn't have to do what one has no interest in.
Was she interested in attending church when you first met?

She was starting to be. She'd grown up in a religious home, had drifted away, and, when we met, was starting to drift back. Since I've known her, (about 5 years, now), this is only the third time she's asked me to do anything religious. The first was when we visited her mother for the first time, and she asked me to accompany them to church (which made sense, being as I was a guest in the home, and I doubt her mother would have wanted me wandering around the house without her there). The second was our daughter's baptism, which I agreed with because I respect her family.

Cyphermage has a good point, and if this is a one time thing, I could probably deal with it. My concern is that it won't be. She's still asleep at this hour, so I'll have to wait for her reply.

Marc

[Dragon]

The Episcopalian Church is part of the Anglican Communion, isn't it? As Cyphermage said as churches go they're not bad. If your priests/vicars across the pond are similar to ours in The Church of England you could even find an ally there. By which I mean that the average vicar is blessed (or so they believe!) with a great deal of common sense and is as least as much concerned with the pastoral aspects of the job as the religious ones. If things became difficult it would be worth approaching the vicar and explaining the problem - hopefully he (or she) would agree that it would be better for Mrs L to cool it for the sake of marital harmony.
Of course if your vicar is of the evangelical, happy-clappy variety then all bets are off ...

[Rasmus]

Hi,

you haven't really told us about what your wife knows and thinks about your stance on all of this. If you don't want to sound like a jerk than you would have to take into account your past regarding this issue.

Time permitting, I agree that you should probably try and discuss this once you are home, though.

[Beady]

Offer her a deal. You would be going to church with her because it means something to her, right? Well, how 'bout for every Sunday you accompany her to church, she spends the next Sunday home with you? If you can compromise ever so little on your principles for her sake, can't she do the same for you?

[Marc L]

Well, I've heard back from my wife, and she responds with the following:

because I'm thankful for you. thankful that my prayers were answered and kept you safe. because you're prayed for in the service every week. people ask about you all the time. I want to be able to go there, to a place that means a lot to me spiritually, and sit next to the man I love, and be grateful that I'm blessed.

Yeesh. If I didn't know my wife, I'd say she's trying to lay a guilt trip (I do know her, and, believe it or not, this is honesty, not guilt). Given her lack of trying to get me to convert in the past, I'm going to accept that this is what it is-she's grateful to "God" and, to an extent, wants to show me off.

I did tell her that if the holy water catches on fire, not to say I didn't warn her ;)

Marc

[pmckean]

Sounds exactly like my girlfriend.

I've taken a pretty hard line, I'm afraid, and she's stopped asking. Most of the disagreements we've had have been about religion. Her church is full-on, evangelical, speaking-in-tongues, happy-clappy land.

The last time I went with her was for a family christening. Had to leave half way through; there's just something so disturbing about the way priests tell you to think, preaching dubious old-testament morality through repeated chants and powerful authoritarian sermons which invoke divine authority. I find it quite creepy and depressing, and just can't sit through it.

[chipmunk stew]

If she starts to get adamant about going to church regularly and it really doesn't sit right with you, perhaps you could compromise by attending a Unitarian Universalist church. My church is excellent, and my wife and I both look forward to it every week. It sounds like this may be out of the question for her, but it might be worth a try.

[Cyphermage]

If she starts to get adamant about going to church regularly and it really doesn't sit right with you, perhaps you could compromise by attending a Unitarian Universalist church. My church is excellent, and my wife and I both look forward to it every week. It sounds like this may be out of the question for her, but it might be worth a try.

Yes, a church that says God isn't a Trinity, and everyone goes to Heaven in the end regardless, probably won't go over well with a devout Episcopalian.

Which brings us to: Unitarian Jokes

Unitarians live by The Ten Suggestions.

To commit a hate crime against a Unitarian, burn a question mark on their lawn.

What's the difference between an agnostic, an atheist, and a Unitarian? I don't know, and I don't care one way or the other.

And of course, my favorite Unitarian Prayer:

"Dear God, if there is a God, if you can, save my soul, if I have a soul."

[Mariah]

You have a difficult problem. It might be possible to go only on Sundays and to make it clear to your partner, repeatedly, that that is the extent of your involvement. That would be the wise (for your relationship) and kind thing for you to do, but it would also be kind of her to understand that you want to keep it that way.

Once you start going, they start to work on you. At the very least, when you miss a Sunday or two, they'll want to know where the hell you are. I believe I'd draw a deep, clear line in the sand. That might not be easy, though.

That plenty of people go to church without believing in the doctrines is certainly true. But to what do you want to give your time and money? This is not a moot point. Unless you attend a huge church, I find it is not easy to "just go" to church for very long. Maybe you can pull off the "just Sunday" thing, but the minute you give in and start helping out the least little bit, you're lost! One thing leads to another and then...

Because it is a community, they need people to keep things going and sooner or later you will be asked to do this and that. Sure, you can refuse, but refusing gets old and soon you will find yourself being politely or not so politely snubbed. Seeming to take without giving is not smiled upon. Virtually every little job you'll be asked to do or committee you'll be roped into will in some way endorse the creeds of the church. And when you are canvassed for monetary contributions you'll be expected to give. And what are you giving to? Seldom to anything that is not connected to whatever brand of superstition the church is propagating.

My experience with the Unitarian Universalist church/fellowship/society have been mixed. Mine is a wonderful, supportive community, and though there are rationalists among them, they--UUs country-wide--are getting Wooier by the week. New Age mumbo jumbo is no better than traditional religious superstition.

[fuelair]

A) it's your wife asking - I think you can handle it.
B) Episcopal is cool (I suspect many are actually atheist/agnostic)
C) they have some of the best jokes (How many Episcopalians does it take to replace a light bulb? Two - one to mix the martinis and one to call the electrician.)

[fuelair]

Rats, forgot D) I have NEVER seen episcopals (or Jews) prosetylizing.

[EricGu]

Well, I've heard back from my wife, and she responds with the following:



Yeesh. If I didn't know my wife, I'd say she's trying to lay a guilt trip (I do know her, and, believe it or not, this is honesty, not guilt). Given her lack of trying to get me to convert in the past, I'm going to accept that this is what it is-she's grateful to "God" and, to an extent, wants to show me off.

I did tell her that if the holy water catches on fire, not to say I didn't warn her ;)

Marc

Sounds like a tough situation.

The phrase, "you are prayed for every week" sounds like you are being proselytized in absentia, as it were. It sounds like your wife wants to you become a theist, and in conjunction with her church, has been working to make that happen indirectly.

If this were me, I don't see how I could go under those circumstances. Even just attending would be viewed as a sign that the prayers were working and that you were "nearer to god", and worse, could give you wife hope that you were getting close to believing.

I would do pretty much anything for my wife, but this would cross the line for me.

It sounds to me like things are hard for your wife in the church. If people are "asking about you", she's getting some disapproval for being married to a non-believer.

[fuelair]

Sounds like a tough situation.

The phrase, "you are prayed for every week" sounds like you are being proselytized in absentia, as it were. It sounds like your wife wants to you become a theist, and in conjunction with her church, has been working to make that happen indirectly.

If this were me, I don't see how I could go under those circumstances. Even just attending would be viewed as a sign that the prayers were working and that you were "nearer to god", and worse, could give you wife hope that you were getting close to believing.

I would do pretty much anything for my wife, but this would cross the line for me.

It sounds to me like things are hard for your wife in the church. If people are "asking about you", she's getting some disapproval for being married to a non-believer.

Trust me or not, this is not an Episcopal thing to do!!!! And I am totally not religious - so I am not trying to cover for them.

[Mariah]

Sounds like a tough situation.

The phrase, "you are prayed for every week" sounds like you are being proselytized in absentia, as it were. It sounds like your wife wants to you become a theist, and in conjunction with her church, has been working to make that happen indirectly.

If this were me, I don't see how I could go under those circumstances. Even just attending would be viewed as a sign that the prayers were working and that you were "nearer to god", and worse, could give you wife hope that you were getting close to believing.

I would do pretty much anything for my wife, but this would cross the line for me.

It sounds to me like things are hard for your wife in the church. If people are "asking about you", she's getting some disapproval for being married to a non-believer.

I agree with this.

You might compromise by going with her, say, on special occasions only, and/or attending social functions occasionally, potlucks, etc. And/or helping out the church with some purely charitable causes, if they exist.

[Tailgater]

Are you out to sea because you are in the military? If so, this could have strengthened her faith. I would rather have my wife turn to her faith than what most women turn too when the man is out to sea. I go with my wife to church when she asks for HER. She knows my boundaries with her religion and doesn't expect me to dive in, but I go for my rescept of HER. There is the line she must respect with YOU. It won't kill you to go to church every once in a while. Unless it's the kind where they drug and brainwash you. It makes her glow when I offer to go and sometimes she just says it's ok and for me to sleep in. It will strengthen your marraige to attend and believe it or not will pay off for you in other areas of the relationship. You will find your woman more giving in other ways;) . When I tell her that I will go to church for HER even though I will not follow the ways of it, there is a very positive response. She sees the effort of doing something you don't care about for her and will eventually relax on asking, and by seeing that effort will have more respect for you. You did know she had a religion growing up. Alot of people come back to it after the funtime of the late teens early 20s. Part of the road toward settling down and becoming an adult.

Void if: They start throwing bibles at you or your wife is a selfish person and wants to convert you.

Oh....I grew up episcopal...no one ever told me what to do if it makes you feel better. I just vegged at the persons head in front of me. Stood up and sat down alot.....

[Marc L]

Sounds like a tough situation.
The phrase, "you are prayed for every week" sounds like you are being proselytized in absentia, as it were. It sounds like your wife wants to you become a theist, and in conjunction with her church, has been working to make that happen indirectly.


Actually, I think it's the fact that I've been out to sea for six months in the military that's having them pray. As I understand it, they pray for all the family members in the church that are in the military.


If this were me, I don't see how I could go under those circumstances. Even just attending would be viewed as a sign that the prayers were working and that you were "nearer to god", and worse, could give you wife hope that you were getting close to believing.

I would do pretty much anything for my wife, but this would cross the line for me.

It sounds to me like things are hard for your wife in the church. If people are "asking about you", she's getting some disapproval for being married to a non-believer.

Again, from everything she's told me, it's more a physical concern (ie, am I safe) then a spiritual one. As I said above, since this is a rare thing for her to do, I'll do it this time, with the understanding that it's just this one time. My wife knows how adamant I can be.

Marc

[SBrown]

Introduce her to this guy........
http://www.taroscopes.com/webstream/webstream_startpage.html

[rjh01]

Do you own an iPod or cassette player? Then let your wife know that you are taking that with you.
If that does not work complain ALL WEEK how boring or stupid it was (be a troll). Will stop her asking again.
Propose to do something else on Sundays.
If she said they prayed for you then tell her not to as it is no help. Reference NEWS FLASH: Prayer Ineffective (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=783&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)

[Soapy Sam]

Marc L.

I work on rigs. I'm away from home a month at a time, six months a year. I'm not married, but I've been in a stable relationship for a decade.

It's hard for a woman when her husband is away as much as you are.
She wants people to know she HAS a partner. She wants to show you off to the people who help her and matter to her when you are away.

I don't think it's too much to ask that you show up once in a while. I do think the two of you need to know where you stand relative to the belief structure.

Go along, hum the hymns and shake the minister by the hand. This matters to your wife. And she may need these people when you are too far away to help her.

[Mariah]

Marc L.

I work on rigs. I'm away from home a month at a time, six months a year. I'm not married, but I've been in a stable relationship for a decade.

It's hard for a woman when her husband is away as much as you are.
She wants people to know she HAS a partner. She wants to show you off to the people who help her and matter to her when you are away.

I don't think it's too much to ask that you show up once in a while. I do think the two of you need to know where you stand relative to the belief structure.

Go along, hum the hymns and shake the minister by the hand. This matters to your wife. And she may need these people when you are too far away to help her.

I think this is advice worth considering. Note the "once in a while." As I said, special occasions such as potlucks and church picnics where creeds and worship are not really present might actually be fun and do your marriage good.

[chipmunk stew]

Marc L.

I work on rigs. I'm away from home a month at a time, six months a year. I'm not married, but I've been in a stable relationship for a decade.

It's hard for a woman when her husband is away as much as you are.
She wants people to know she HAS a partner. She wants to show you off to the people who help her and matter to her when you are away.

I don't think it's too much to ask that you show up once in a while. I do think the two of you need to know where you stand relative to the belief structure.

Go along, hum the hymns and shake the minister by the hand. This matters to your wife. And she may need these people when you are too far away to help her.I think this is good advice and is the right thing to do.

It not only matters to your wife, but her fellow church members will have had genuine concern for your well-being (spiritual, perhaps, but also physical) and will want to see for themselves that you're okay, to thank you for what you're doing, to see one of their beloved members reunited with her husband.

Episcopalians are pretty non-threatening in my experience. They'll be happy knowing that you're a good man doing good by his wife and by his country, and by and large they won't be so rude as to probe your personal spiritual landscape.

[Flo]

Marc L.

I work on rigs. I'm away from home a month at a time, six months a year. I'm not married, but I've been in a stable relationship for a decade.

It's hard for a woman when her husband is away as much as you are.
She wants people to know she HAS a partner. She wants to show you off to the people who help her and matter to her when you are away.

I don't think it's too much to ask that you show up once in a while. I do think the two of you need to know where you stand relative to the belief structure.

Go along, hum the hymns and shake the minister by the hand. This matters to your wife. And she may need these people when you are too far away to help her.


Seconded (except on the "hum the hymns" part ;) ). Given what you've written here, there's a good chance most of those who prayed for you did so as a wish for your good health and your safe return rather than as prozeliti ... prezoly.... trying to convert you.


ETA: There's only 2 occasions I'll go to church, weddings and funerals. Most of the people who invite me to weddings (you aren't invited to funerals, you just show up to pay your respect to the deceased and their family) know I'm an atheist and are gracious enough to excuse me from the religious part and suggest I only show up for the drinks and/or party afterwards, but I think it would be extremely rude to do so, so I endure the mass, dreadful music, but I've made it clear to the priest/pastor/prozelitizing members that I wouldn't put up with attempts at converting me.

[Starthinker]

I agree with Soapy Sam. It's only an hour or so a week. Go with her, it must mean a lot to her. And, chances are some of her friends that you will deal with all week are members of the same church so you don't want them thinking ill of you as they may voice this to your wife and that's another can of worms. It may also be a nice time to meditate, just don't snore. On that note, you can always embarrass her at church and she may not want you to go back.

But anyways, marriage is about sharing each other's life and that is a part of her life so you may as well share it at least a little, or it may become a crack in the foundation of your relationship.

[Apathia]

I agree with the consensus here. Be honest with her about where you stand and visit church with her once in a while. I occsionally attend St. Paul's Episcopal Church here in Concord, NH because I support its public services and its openess. (NH has an openly/partnered gay bishop.)

[Overman]

You should be in the clear just by saying 'no' as long as you have never asked her to not go to church.

[Tailgater]

I would rather go to church then go shopping with her. I can sit down and know when it ends.

[Mariah]

I would rather go to church then go shopping with her. I can sit down and know when it ends.

Haaa! You're killin' me!

[Jaggy Bunnet]

I agree with Soapy Sam. It's only an hour or so a week. Go with her, it must mean a lot to her. And, chances are some of her friends that you will deal with all week are members of the same church so you don't want them thinking ill of you as they may voice this to your wife and that's another can of worms. It may also be a nice time to meditate, just don't snore. On that note, you can always embarrass her at church and she may not want you to go back.

But anyways, marriage is about sharing each other's life and that is a part of her life so you may as well share it at least a little, or it may become a crack in the foundation of your relationship.

While agreeing with much of what Soapy Sam and others have written, I still have misgivings.

To try and see if I think it is a reasonable request, I tried to come up with what the comparable situation would be in reverse and if I thought that was reasonable. Best I could come up with was asking a religious person to attend some form of athiest meeting at which they would be told repeatedly they were wrong and expected to sit in silence and suck it up.

I would feel VERY uncomfortable to expect them to do so. I fail to see any real reason why a request to attend church would be in any way different.

Why not agree to meet her after church and go out for lunch with some of her friends from church? That way she gets to show you off, you get to meet her friends (and part of the support network while you are away) but you are not expected to do something that you are not comfortable with.

That way you share this part of her life (a bit) and she shows that she respects your beliefs.

[Mariah]

While agreeing with much of what Soapy Sam and others have written, I still have misgivings.

To try and see if I think it is a reasonable request, I tried to come up with what the comparable situation would be in reverse and if I thought that was reasonable. Best I could come up with was asking a religious person to attend some form of athiest meeting at which they would be told repeatedly they were wrong and expected to sit in silence and suck it up.

I would feel VERY uncomfortable to expect them to do so. I fail to see any real reason why a request to attend church would be in any way different.

Why not agree to meet her after church and go out for lunch with some of her friends from church? That way she gets to show you off, you get to meet her friends (and part of the support network while you are away) but you are not expected to do something that you are not comfortable with.

That way you share this part of her life (a bit) and she shows that she respects your beliefs.

I think you make a valid point. A lot depends on to what degree the person being asked objects to what the church teaches. I like your suggestion and repeat mine that he might compromise by going to a social event sponsored by the church, but not to services. I believe your suggestion is cleaner, though, especially if he's dead set against the dogma.

[Marc L]

All you guys have valid points. Like I said, knowing my wife, I'm pretty convinced that it is what she says it is, just an attempt to show me off and be greatful for my safe return. It's a one time event, and, like someone else pointed out, it won't kill me. Having grown up Catholic, I'm pretty sure I can handle one Episcopalian service.

If it becomes a constant thing, I'll put my foot down, but a one time event I'm not going to fret over.

Marc

[kleinjahr]

Grew up Anglican myself. As I understand it Episcopalian is the American version, started by some ungrateful revolutionaries :D.
Consider it a social occasion, which it is for you. It will also help in the bonding between you and your wife, going to sea, especially in the navy, can really stress that bond. I speak from experience, ex-RCN/CAF.
Also it may help your wife social status wise, which has been mentioned by Marc L. Any one who has lived in a small town or belonged to a small group can attest to how nasty it can get when they get an idea in their collective heads. ie: She's not really married... Basically she needs that public affirmation of your committment.
For yourself, who knows? Always good to hear other's points of view. Plus you may end up having an interesting conversation/argument/discussion with the vicar or others.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

I say go. It means a lot to your wife. And besides, if the congregation starts to proselytizie, well... then you proselytizie right back! Have discussions on all manner of subjects; existence of God, effect of prayer, good/evil, etc. I think once they are aware of your opinions, they will desist. But it probably won't even escalate. Good luck!

[KelvinG]

Tell your wife that if you go to church with her, that she has to go to a swingers party with you. Inform her wife swapping is your "religion."

[Lamuella]

I'd say go, be cheerful to be there, but be a spectator not a participant. Sing the hymns (the best part of church anyway) and say hello to people afterwards.

I'm an atheist, and I used to go to evensong at York Minster every month or so when I was at university, because it really is a sight to behold. Also, the people I went with (who were devout christians) went to Betty's Tea Room afterwards, and that is an almost religious experience for me.

[Anti_Hypeman]

Make a deal. For every time you go to church she has to go see any movie of your choice with you. After a few showings of Larry the Cable Guy, Ultraviolet, Blood Rayne, See No Evil, any Wayans brothers movie, etc ... she will learn to drop the subject.

[ferd burfle]

If it becomes a constant thing, I'll put my foot down, but a one time event I'm not going to fret over.

I think you've got it; given the situation you describe I think doing this for your bride is the gracious and loving thing to do. There are times when objectivity and rationality are not what's called for. ("Honey, does this outfit make my butt look fat?")

It's also an opportunity for a direct and honest conversation about her needs and yours long-term on this subject, while you're still basking in the glow of your reunion.

Ferd

[c4ts]

Make a deal. For every time you go to church she has to go see any movie of your choice with you. After a few showings of Larry the Cable Guy, Ultraviolet, Blood Rayne, See No Evil, any Wayans brothers movie, etc ... she will learn to drop the subject.

A Roman Polanski movie festival comes to mind...