Flaming object help!!! UFO question!

[kittynh]

It's another UFO question that I need help with. This one is really great as it gives me a lot of information! Usually it's a vague, "I saw something fall from the sky..." question.

So what was it? Guesses are welcome. Is there a place I can check to see if there was something like a meteor on that date?

thanks as usual!!!

here is the question.......................................... .............



A few months ago I saw a flaming object fall out of the sky. Here are the details:

The date was Tuesday, January 10, 2006. It was I think about 10:20pm (getting a little murky now). I was driving eastwards on Massachusetts state Route 9, just west of the Newton border, when my attention was drawn to a flaming object to my left (south of Rt. 9), traveling roughly west-to-east and apparently falling. It was travelling much faster than any planes I have seen at altitude but also much slower than the couple of meteors I have seen. I would estimate it covered roughly half the sky (to the ground out of my sight) in just under three seconds.

After the first second I remember exclaiming "Oh, no!" because I was convinced it was a falling airplane, on fire; maybe due to terrorism. When it disappeared I quickly rolled down my window thinking I would hear an impact -- but nothing. I saw no explosion, flames or smoke against Boston's bright night sky. When I got home, within a mile or so of what I thought would be the impact point (Newton or Brookline or Allston/Brighton, districts of Boston) I expected to hear sirens -- nothing. Nothing on the TV; nothing in the papers in the next couple of days.

So, do clearly flaming meteors fall a lot slower than I expect and not cause fires or obvious damage? If it was a "flaming bolide" high in the atmosphere would I have seen actual flames? And if so, wouldn't it have been going more slowly and over the horizon (contrary to what I thought I was seeing) and be noted by the press? Can you find out if anyone else saw this thing?

I'm just glad it wasn't a plane.

[UrsulaV]

Model rocket?

Scale is so hard to determine with airborne stuff at night that I wouldn't neccessarily rule out the usual run of fireworks and whatnot.

[Apollyon]

Massachusetts? Are you sure it wasn't just Ted Kennedy driving home from the bar?

j/k

Don't know what to tell you, but you can report the incident here:

http://www.imo.net/fireball/report

[Hamradioguy]

Fireballs can appear to fall slower than the usual meteor- a lot depends on the viewer's perspective as well. And they can sometimes give the impression of "flaming" even though what one is seeing is generally the ionization trail and not actual flames. They almost always burn up in the lower atmosphere. The rare meteor that makes it to the ground can initially be warm to the touch but I've not heard of many-if any- cases where it is so hot it starts a fire.
Not every bright fireball results in numerious reports to the press and police. At 10:30 at night in January I'd think most folks would be indoors or not watching just the right spot in the sky. (I saw a really bright fireball at dusk while hunting a few years ago and apparently not a single other person saw this......)
The North American Meteor Network collects reports of bright fireballs. Nothing on their site for the date mentioned.....

[Gravy]

would estimate it covered roughly half the sky (to the ground out of my sight) in just under three seconds.

Kitty, this part of the description matches quite well a couple of meteor encounters I've had. Both were bright enough to read by, for those few seconds. Neither time did they appear to hit the ground, though. They must have burned up at altitude.

[Ducky]

Obviously it was God smiting an infidel.

[cloudshipsrule]

These are very common:

http://www.overflite.com/

and account for a lot of the UFO sightings around the globe.

I read an article on them a few months ago and there was a discussion on how they are perceived in the air. Their actual speed and height can be wildly different than how they are seen or perceived by an individual on the ground. I'll try to find that article and post a link.

[Beady]

That resembles my very first fireball sighting. Could have sworn it hit just outside of town, but the actual impact was some 300 miles away, in Canada.

You were looking south, from northern Massachussetts, right? Your fireball could well have been far out over the Atlantic; given geography, it's west-to-east direction could even mean that it entered the atmosphere to the east of the continent, and therefore was not visible to most observers. In turn, this would mean that it almost certainly went unreported.

[Kochanski]

There are a whole host of meteor showers in January. Here is a list:
Radiant, Duration, Maximum
Zeta Aurigids December 11-January 21 Dec. 31/Jan. 1
January Bootids January 9-18 Jan. 16-18
Delta Cancrids (DCA) December 14-February 14 Jan. 17
Canids January 13-30 Jan. 24/25
Eta Carinids January 14-27 Jan. 21/22
Eta Craterids January 11-22 Jan. 16/17
January Draconids January 10-24 Jan. 13-16
Rho Geminids December 28-January 28 Jan. 8/9
Alpha Hydrids January 15-30 Jan. 20/21
Alpha Leonids January 13-February 13 Jan. 24-31
Gamma Velids January 1-17 Jan. 5-8

I have watched a few meteor showers and the of them can vary greatly. Some are quite spectacular fireballs with long trails. Checking a fireball listing there were two sightings on that day reported here: http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireball/fireball_log2006.html

One sighting in Jersey, the other in Texas. Sounds like this is your object.

They also have a cool picture of the July 23, 2001 Pennsylvania Bollide there. Picture looks like the image described by your person.

edited for bollide info

[ferd burfle]

It's another UFO question that I need help with. This one is really great as it gives me a lot of information! Usually it's a vague, "I saw something fall from the sky..." question.

So what was it? Guesses are welcome. Is there a place I can check to see if there was something like a meteor on that date?

...

The date was Tuesday, January 10, 2006. It was I think about 10:20pm (getting a little murky now). I was driving eastwards on Massachusetts state Route 9, just west of the Newton border, when my attention was drawn to a flaming object to my left (south of Rt. 9), traveling roughly west-to-east and apparently falling. It was travelling much faster than any planes I have seen at altitude but also much slower than the couple of meteors I have seen. I would estimate it covered roughly half the sky (to the ground out of my sight) in just under three seconds.



Kitty, I first thought of this sort of thing

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Balloons_20for_20pyromaniacs

It fits with something that might not leave much trace or be noticed widely but it doesn't seem to be a good fit with your description of east-to-west motion of the object you saw.

Ferd

[skeptigirl]

Sounds like a meteor fireball to me and I have seen several.

[RSLancastr]

This board is just... so cool.

The amount of help we all give each other, on such a wide variety of topics... amazing.

[Stellafane]

I would guess this to be a meteor from the annual Quandrantids meteor shower, which peaks in early January. (For some reason, this shower does not appear on Kochanski's list, despite the fact it is one of the strongest of the annual displays.) Here's a link http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011199.html to a report of a Quandrantid bolide over Alaska, that has many of the same similarities as your sighting -- same description, same time of year (albeit several years earlier), even the same time of night. May be enough for a conviction here...

[Dragonrock]

Just a note about the speed. If the path of the object was not perpendicular to his line of sight then it would appear to be moving more slowly than it actually was.

[Stellafane]

Just a note about the speed. If the path of the object was not perpendicular to his line of sight then it would appear to be moving more slowly than it actually was.

The west-to-east motion may also have contributed to the object's lack of speed. The Earth rotates west-to-east (at roughly 1000 miles per hour at the equator), so any object traveling in that direction would appear slower to a ground observer, because you're both moving in roughly the same direction. In addition, you saw the object before midnight. This means any meteor that struck your location would have to "catch up" to the Earth as it travels in its orbit around the sun. After midnight, meteors collide with the Earth head-on, and thus appear to be traveling much faster.

[Huntster]

It could have been absolutely anything except a spacecraft.

Even calling it an unidentified flying object is questionable.

[Astrophotographer]

So, do clearly flaming meteors fall a lot slower than I expect and not cause fires or obvious damage? If it was a "flaming bolide" high in the atmosphere would I have seen actual flames? And if so, wouldn't it have been going more slowly and over the horizon (contrary to what I thought I was seeing) and be noted by the press? Can you find out if anyone else saw this thing?

I'm just glad it wasn't a plane.

Yes, meteors have been misidentified as crashing airplanes before. Of course, the description of "flaming meteors" is vague. Perhaps one can read the article by astronomer William Hartmann for the Condon report regarding meteors and UFO reports.

http://ncas.sawco.com/condon/text/s6chap02.htm

I attempted to cross reference the sighting with a fireball report in a few meteor data bases but there wasn't any. However, an important point to make is that January 9th was near the full moon. Astronomers (who make the bulk of such reports) do not normally observe near the full moon and definitely do not observe meteors at that time.

I would consider this a probable bright meteor of about magnitude -4 to -8. Anything brighter would have caused a lot of attention. Anything fainter probably would not have been noteworthy.

Also, it was probably just a sporadic meteor. Quadrantids are notably sharp peaking and all the other showers described do not normally produce bright fireballs.

[skeptigirl]

American Meteor Society Fireball Sightings log, 2006 (http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireball/fireball_log2006.html) shows 86 sightings in Jan '06 if I counted right. You can also go to the '05 log to get an idea how many fireballs are witnessed per month.

Fireball FAQ (http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireball/faqf.html)Our best estimates of the total incoming meteoroid flux indicate that about 10 to 50 meteorite dropping events occur over the earth each day. It should be remembered, however, that 2/3 of these events will occur over ocean, while another 1/4 or so will occur over very uninhabited land areas, leaving only about 2 to 12 events each day with the potential for discovery by people. Half of these again occur on the night side of the earth, with even less chance of being noticed. Due to the combination of all of these factors, only a handful of witnessed meteorite falls occur Each year.Some terminology, FYI, to better understand the FAQ page.

Meteoroid - the object still in space
Meteor - the object traveling in the atmosphere
Meteorite - the object after it hits the ground


Only a few fireballs are necessarily associated with meteor showers. The Leonids meteor 'storm' of 1998 was an exception. There were fireballs and flashes all night long. It was the best shower I've ever seen.

Meteors which only graze the atmosphere and burn out quickly do appear to travel faster than fireballs. Part of that is their size, mere dust specks, and the other part is they are at higher altitudes with less air resistance. When a small pea sized meteor hits the atmosphere, it travels further toward the Earth and encounters more friction slowing it down.


Other fireball sighting report web sites:

FROM CANADA:
The Meteorites and Impacts Advisory Committee (MIAC) of the Canadian Space Agency
http://miac.uqac.ca/MIAC/fireball.htm MIAC

FROM THE USA and other locations:
The American Meteor Society:
http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireball/report.html AMS

International Meteor Organization:
http://www.imo.net/fireball/report.html IMO

North American Meteor Network
http://www.namnmeteors.org/fireball/namnreport.html

Dutch Meteor Society
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dmsweb/fireballs/fireball.html DMS

Astronomical Institute Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic
http://www.asu.cas.cz/~meteor/report.htm

Spanish Photographic Meteor Network
http://www.spmn.uji.es/ENG/presentation.html

Gary Kronk has a nice site for meteor showers and comets (http://comets.amsmeteors.org/). I used his calculations to plan our excursions to clear dark skies during the Leonids storm years. We went in '98, '99, & '01. In '98 we watched from the high desert in Arizona and visited the Grand Canyon and Meteor Crater. In '99 we watched from New Mexico and went to Roswell and Carlsbad Caverns. In '01 we went to Death Valley and Area 51.

We watched from The Little Alie-Inn that year. Believe it or not there was only one other couple who watched the event from there that night. I had been hoping for a big crowd but it didn't happen. We'd have been better off to have stayed at Death Valley. But we did see the famous moving stones (http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?mat=pdef&oldpg=2844) in Death Valley. That was great fun.

[skeptigirl]

Yes, meteors have been misidentified as crashing airplanes before. .....A meteorite was known to have fallen near the town of John Day, OR about 25 or so years ago that several witnesses reported as a plane crash. The rock hasn't been found yet. I went looking for it once. Had a great time but no luck finding it.

The fall is listed one of my meteorite books.

[kittynh]

wow! this is great!

And I don't have to convince this person to go in "for a good checkup" after his alien abduction!!!

(You would think if you were kidnapped by aliens you would at least go see a doctor, though NOT a podiatrist!)

[c4ts]

And I was hoping it was another electrocuted cat.

[Kochanski]

I would guess this to be a meteor from the annual Quandrantids meteor shower, which peaks in early January. (For some reason, this shower does not appear on Kochanski's list, despite the fact it is one of the strongest of the annual displays.) Here's a link http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011199.html to a report of a Quandrantid bolide over Alaska, that has many of the same similarities as your sighting -- same description, same time of year (albeit several years earlier), even the same time of night. May be enough for a conviction here...

I know I did not list the Quandrantids. I listed all the minor showers. There is a plethora of activity in January and the Quadrantids are listed most places, I just figured I would list all the others that most people would not know and that most sites don't bother to list ;)

That there were two reportings of a fireball on that exact day and that the sightings were in Texas and in New Jersey it seems likely, kittynh, that your UFO person was viewing the same event.

[Astrophotographer]

That there were two reportings of a fireball on that exact day and that the sightings were in Texas and in New Jersey it seems likely, kittynh, that your UFO person was viewing the same event.

Most fireballs can only be seen over a radius of a few hundred miles since they are only 10-30 miles high. I don't think the Texas event is related but the New Jersey one MIGHT be if it were about the same time frame.

[Kochanski]

Astro, you are correct. Jersey sighting is Toms River and distance to Newton MA is about 280 miles (by mapquest directions).

It does look like quite a bit of activity that night with the two sightings reported, so even if it isn't the same as the Tom's River sighting, no reason why another could not have occurred.

[hellaeon]

wow! this is great!

And I don't have to convince this person to go in "for a good checkup" after his alien abduction!!!

(You would think if you were kidnapped by aliens you would at least go see a doctor, though NOT a podiatrist!)

Wow your behind the times....everyone knows you go see an alien abduction therapist (http://www.princeleopold.com/alienabduction.html)... Who needs trained personnel...

[RSLancastr]

It could have been absolutely anything except a spacecraft.

Even calling it an unidentified flying object is questionable.Why, has it been identified?

[skeptigirl]

Most fireballs can only be seen over a radius of a few hundred miles since they are only 10-30 miles high. I don't think the Texas event is related but the New Jersey one MIGHT be if it were about the same time frame.
Actually, fireballs have been recorded over much wider fields of view.

Peekskill fireball (http://uregina.ca/~astro/mb_5.html)Eyewitness accounts indicate that the fireball associated with the Peekskill meteorite first appeared over West Virginia at 23:48 UT (+/- 1 min.). The fireball, which traveled in an approximately northeasterly direction had a pronounced greenish colour, and attained an estimated peak visual magnitude of - 13 (comparable to the Full Moon). During a luminous flight time that exceeded 40 seconds the fireball covered a ground path of some 700 to 800 km (Brown et al, 1994). The ground path would then be visible from an additional further distance if I read this correctly. 800 kilometers is about 500 miles.



The Trajectory Analysis of June 3rd Washington State Fireball (http://astrowww.phys.uvic.ca/~tatum/fireball/matson.pdf) has a link to this account, according to witness reports from "along a 60-mile swath of the sound from near Tacoma to Whidbey Island and as far as 260 miles to the east." (http://www.hohmanntransfer.com/mn/0406/03.htm) It continues,And, amazingly, there is this from Chris Peterson in Colorado: "We have a handful of witness reports from people who saw this event around Denver (traveling east to west), a full 1000 miles from Seattle."These are well documented sightings.

Of course, direction in this case would be relevant as to which were the same fireballs. Also, kittynh isn't certain of the observation date.

[Capsid]

I get a live feed (http://www.tvcomm.co.uk/radio/live.html)to my desktop and email alerts for meteors from this site (http://www.tvcomm.co.uk/radio/rrd_blog.html) although I think it is European specific. I've found that meteor activity is often quite high but it seems to be during day time mostly :mad:. I'd love to see a fireball.

[Astrophotographer]

Actually, fireballs have been recorded over much wider fields of view.

I stand corrected. In these cases, the meteors traveled over a great distance and this increased the radius of observation. I was basing this mostly on what I have read concerning the great fireballl of 1965

http://www.debunker.com/Kecksburg.html

and the daylight fireball of 2001.

http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireball/fireball_log2006.html#pennfb

I remember the 1972 daylight fireball was seen over most of the western US. Ahhh...how I wish I had a chance to see one of these. I have to be satisified with the fireballs I have seen during the Perseids and Leonids, which were impressive but seeing a daylight fireball must be something special.

[kittynh]

wow! First off THANK YOU!

This guy emailed me and was totally SANE!

He thanked me (and all of YOU) for a rational explaination. He's happy with the answers (or our best educated guesses). He also thanked me as he got the answers he wanted very quickly.

It's so nice when someone learns something from this forums vast storehouse of knowledge. I know I learned a lot! And this guy did also!

THANKS!!!!

[skeptigirl]

You are so welcome. Meteorites and meteors are my favorite hobby. The first fireball I saw was while driving across Texas on our way to Mardi Gras when I was 18. It was traveling parallel to our car and seemed to hang in the sky forever. I've been an astronomy addict ever since.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Have you ever seen the phenomenon where a rainbow ring surrounds the sun? I've seen it twice. Once was in Texas, clear sky, ring around the sun with grayish shade between the sun and the ring. The second time was while driving in either New Mexico or Arizona (going to Vegas), overcast, rainbow ring barely visible except for two bright spots on either side of the ring.

[Timothy]

The second time was while driving in either New Mexico or Arizona (going to Vegas), overcast, rainbow ring barely visible except for two bright spots on either side of the ring.
Those are known as sun dogs, the asymmetry is a result of the alignment of airborne ice crystals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog

- Timothy

[Timothy]

It could have been absolutely anything except a spacecraft.

In this case, probably, but not to be discounted out of hand ...

In 2000, several years of my work became a fireball that wound up in the ocean (picture below). South American astronomers caught the event, unaware what it was at the time, but eventually postulating the correct answer.

- Timothy
----------------


(Translated from a web page that no longer exists)

Last Monday, November 20th, just a few minutes past 11 PM, many observers in Montevideo were eyewitnesses of a celestial phenomenon both spectacular and rare: two or more meteorites were seen crossing the sky in a track that lasted many seconds. These phenomena are random by nature, so it surprised the fortunate witnesses. Some astronomers that were in that moment preparing to make observations had the chance to appreciate the phenomenon. That's why they had the chance to register it with their cameras and camcorders, even though it wasn't expected, and was not related with the meteorite showers typical of mid-November (Leonides). Reports were also received from Argentina (Sta. Fé y Buenos Aires), as well as other cities from Uruguay (Minas y Paysandu).

The most likely hypothesis is that they were the remnants of a satelite. According to Jorge Coghlan (CODE - LIADA), the greatest possibility is that it's an artificial object (a rocket or an artificial satellite) reentering the atmosphere (the continuous drag with the upper layers of the atmosphere acuses the slow height and speed loss of the satellite) and the enormous friction with the atmosphere as it reentered caused its disintegration, and after breaking down it looks like many meteorites of high intensity and duration, known as "bólidos" (I translated this before as meteorites).

At 2 AM on Monday 21 (Moscow time) a commercial satellite was launched from a spacial base located in the Arctic (then in was 8PM of Monday 20th in Montevideo). Immediately after the launch of the rocket that carried the satellite, mission control lost contact with it. The Russian Aerospace Agency then reported that the second stage of the rocket had fired too early, and as a result of that, the satellite had probably fallen onto the atmosphere.

The photo was taken by Carlos Rossatti from the Observatory TUCAN 47 (La Teja, Montevideo). He used a Zenit E camera with a 50 mm lens, with 400 ASA film, at f/4 and 1/500 seg.

[chance]

(extract) It was travelling much faster than any planes I have seen at altitude but also much slower than the couple of meteors I have seen. I would estimate it covered roughly half the sky (to the ground out of my sight) in just under three seconds.

I saw no explosion, flames or smoke against Boston's bright night sky.

So, do clearly flaming meteors fall a lot slower .

Seen a very similar meteorite myself, mine produced orange sparks and left a smoke trail as it passed thorough the atmosphere.

[kittynh]

well, I got a TEN for my feedback rating on this one!!!

And JREF got a thanks from him also!

yeah!!!!

You all RULE!!! (making me look good!)

[Dragonrock]

Kitty, have you ever gotten angry replies from people after you disillusion them of their woo?

[kittynh]

oddly enough, no. In fact I have a very high rating at the site, even though almost all of my questions are from people that WANT to believe it was an alien aircraft.

A lot of times I can just take a guess though, as there isn't enough information. But I try to follow the methods I learned from Joe Nickell and his books about being tactful and respecting the person who is asking the question or making the claim. Joe is well known for being able to make about any woo open up. In fact, he's often welcomed as a fair person, even by the woos. Partly because he just listens. I also respect everyone that asks me a question. Let's face it, it takes some guts to claim you've seen something "odd" without being afraid of looking "odd".

the best are the people that actually go to a physician for PTSD, and find out they have a real medical disorder that is causing their alien problems! First time it happened I went "whoa!!!" There are real vision problems that can cause you to "see" stuff flying around that isn't there...I never knew that!

And that is just one.

Never a complaint. That gives me great hope for our world.

[CFLarsen]

It's the man on the flaming pie.

[pchams]

Sounds like arc and relative position.
It may be like watching a home run hit out of the park from just left of home plate, or even with third base. They appear to be moving at diffent speeds.
Sorry if this has been stated more clearly in the thread.

[skeptigirl]

Seen a very similar meteorite myself, mine produced orange sparks and left a smoke trail as it passed thorough the atmosphere.Correction, see my post above. A meteorite is the object after it hits the ground. In the atmosphere it is a meteor. In space and before it hits the ground the same object is a meteoroid. Meteor is the phenomenon of the streak of light across the sky.

We had a long unresolved debate on the Bad Astronomy forum whether one would call something a meteor as it was falling on a planet or moon with no atmosphere.

[skeptigirl]

"and not cause fires or obvious damage? "

Just noticed we didn't address this from the OP. Meteorites when they hit the Earth, (smaller than something like the Tunguska object of course), are merely warm to the touch. The depth of the melting is less than a millimeter even with a nickel-iron meteorite. They cool before they reach terminal velocity. Thus they do not cause fires.

AMS Fireball FAQ (http://www.amsmeteors.org/fireball/faqf.html)8. Can a meteorite dropping fireball be observed all the way to impact with the ground?

No. At some point, usually between 15 to 20 km (9-12 miles or 48,000-63,000 feet) altitude, the meteoroid remnants will decelerate to the point that the ablation process stops, and visible light is no longer generated. This occurs at a speed of about 2-4 km/sec (4500-9000 mph).

From that point onward, the stones will rapidly decelerate further until they are falling at their terminal velocity, which will generally be somewhere between 0.1 and 0.2 km/sec (200 mph to 400 mph). Moving at these rapid speeds, the meteorite(s) will be essentially invisible during this final "dark flight" portion of their fall.

9. Are meteorites "glowing" hot when they reach the ground?

Probably not. The ablation process, which occurs over the majority of the meteorite's path, is a very efficient heat removal method, and was effectively copied for use during the early manned space flights for re-entry into the atmosphere. During the final free-fall portion of their flight, meteorites undergo very little frictional heating, and probably reach the ground at only slightly above ambient temperature.

For the obvious reason, however, exact data on meteorite impact temperatures is rather scarce and prone to hearsay. Therefore, we are only able to give you an educated guess based upon our current knowledge of these events.There have been meteorites picked up right after they fell which were "warm" to the touch. Note in particular story numbers 3 and 6 from this list (http://astro.wsu.edu/worthey/astro/html/im-meteor/strikes.html) which were well documented events. Both of those meteorites were at most, warm to the touch. The dog and horse supposedly killed by meteorites, story numbers 10 & 11, might not be true according to Dr Tony Irving, the meteorite specialist at the U of WA so take these stories with a grain of salt.

Meteorites Don't Pop Corn (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast27jul_1.htm)A fireball that dazzled Americans on July 23rd [2001] was a piece of a comet or an asteroid, scientists say. Contrary to reports, however, it probably didn't scorch any cornfields.