militants' latest demands - {Middle East Thread...you've been warned}

[zenith-nadir]

Hamas's "military wing" :rolleyes: dug under the pre-1967 Gaza border and tunneled into Israel last Sunday, killed two Israeli soldiers and kidnapped another. After waiting a few days for intense diplomatic efforts by Egypt and Jordan to bear fruit, which it did not, Israel finally sent troops into Gaza.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said:"Israel needs to stop it's 'aggression' and avoid more 'disasters' for the Palestinian people".
Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh said: "His government would not cave in to Israeli demands"
While the Palestinian terrorists holding the Israeli soldier hostage issued a new set of demands calling for the release of 1,000 prisoners and a halt to Israel's military offensive in Gaza.

Had Hamas's "military wing" not dug under the pre-1967 Gaza border last Sunday to kill or kidnap Israeli soldiers - with malice aforethought - then I would not be even talking about this. The responsibility for this latest escalation rests squarely with the Palestinians, specifically Hamas, who has merely assumed the political privileges of power without accepting even the minimal responsibilities that go with it. But now the Palestinian propoganda machine shifts into fifth gear and in fact it is "Israel that needs to stop it's aggression" before the hostage will be released. How frikkin' droll, the hostage takers/terrorists demand not to be punished for terror and taking hostages before they will even think about releasing the hostage they took in the first place!

I've seen this tactic used by the Palestinian terror groups time and time again....endless rounds of reckless terror attacks by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades or Popular Resistance Committees and when Israel responds the Palestinians scream "Israeli aggression!" and "massacre!" - (boy who cried wolf anyone?). This is the point where the UN steps in to warn everyone that Gaza is on the edge of a "humanitarian crisis" because of "Israeli aggression" triggering the useful idiots and liberals into predictable action.

There must be a price for hostage takers & terrorists and Hamas's "military wing" attacks on orders of its leadership, the "political wing" of Hamas. You can count on it.


[edited to add]

GAZA CITY (AFP) - July 01, 2006 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060701/ts_afp/mideast_060701123128)

Efforts to free an Israeli soldier whose abduction has triggered a major Middle East crisis have hit an impasse, Palestinian officials warned after Israel rejected new militant demands.

See the game yet? The Palestinians are experts at shifting the blame to Israel.... in this instance "efforts to free an Israeli soldier have hit an impasse" because Israel rejected the "militant's demands".

[GroundStrength]

When you're right, your're right.

Unfortuately Israel will bend to this pressure and not exterminate Hamas.
:(

[Zep]

Let's look at the solutions you have outlined so far, ZN:

1) Eliminate with extreme prejudice, using all military might available, every person even remotely associated with Hamas, political, military, whatever (the "wipe them all out" option).

2) Sit in the corner sobbing like a bleeding-heart wimp (the supposed "useful idiot and liberal" option).

Here's the question: Are they the ONLY options you can think of?

[zenith-nadir]

When you're right, your're right.

Unfortuately Israel will bend to this pressure and not exterminate Hamas.
:(It's been like this for decades. Arafat and the PLO were experts at shifting the blame to Israel...they massacred athletes at the Olympics, murdered tourists at the Rome and Vienna airports, hijacked planes and cruiseships because of something "israel did".

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades or Popular Resistance Committees learned from the PLO and also became experts at shifting the blame to Israel...they'd send jihadist suicide bombers into Israel to murder innocent people because of something "israel did".

Hamas's "military wing" dug under the pre-1967 Gaza border and tunneled into Israel last Sunday, killed two Israeli soldiers and kidnapped another... because of something "israel did".

And today Palestinian officials warned that "efforts to free an Israeli soldier have hit an impasse"...Gosh, why? Well it turns out because of something "israel did"... which - ironically - was to reject the militant's demands.

[zenith-nadir]

Let's look at the solutions you have outlined so far, ZN:

1) Eliminate with extreme prejudice, using all military might available, every person even remotely associated with Hamas, political, military, whatever (the "wipe them all out" option).100% Strawman. Nowhere in my post do I desire to "eliminate with extreme prejudice". Infact I do not even use the terms "eliminate" or "eliminate with extreme prejudice".

Let's look at the solutions you have outlined so far, ZN:

2) Sit in the corner sobbing like a bleeding-heart wimp (the supposed "useful idiot and liberal" option).100% Strawman. Nowhere in my post do I advise folks to "Sit in the corner sobbing like a bleeding-heart wimp".


Here's the question: Are they the ONLY options you can think of?Since I thought of neither option I do not have to defend the strawmen you so eloquently built for me. ;)

But if you do want an option here's mine:

Make the Palestinian Authority 100% responsible for the actions of the terrorists/militants who, A) use Palestinian land for bases of operation and B) use Palestinian lands to attack neighboring countries. It's very simple actually.

Meanwhile the common refrain around the globe - see: useful idiots and liberals - is until Israel is technologically capable of killing terrorists hiding in the middle of cities full of civilians without a single Palestinian civilian being injured then Israel should adopt a policy of pacifism, under which it does not respond or retaliate at all to terrorism....in effect, useful idiots and liberals insist that Israel stop defending its own civilians altogether.

There is only one effective way to prevent Palestinian and Israeli civilian casualties, and that is to stop the Palestinian terrorist aggression against Israel - see: Hamas's "military wing" digging under the pre-1967 Gaza border and killing two Israeli soldiers and kidnapped another.

[edited to add]

Friday 30 June 2006, 17:27 Makka Time, 14:27 GMT (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D81EA823-EE6E-43DC-A0B1-24FD25B26973.htm) - Aljazeera

The Palestinian prime minister has vowed that his Hamas-led government will not give in to force, saying Israel has to halt its Gaza offensive if it wants to free a captured soldier.

"No concessions will be made," Ismail Haniya said on Friday in his first public appearance since the abduction of Israeli Corporal Gilad Shalit.

He accused Israel of planning an "open war" after "failing to blackmail" his government into making concessions connected to the soldier's release.This is how it goes;

1) With malice aforethought dig under the border to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers.

2) Demand that Israel release 1,000 prisoners if it want's to see the hostage alive.

3) Demand that Israel halt it's military offensive in Gaza if it wants to free the hostage.

4) Call Israel's military offensive in Gaza "blackmail" into making concessions connected to the hostages' release.

Welcome to Palestine!

[Polaris]

It's been like this for decades. Arafat and the PLO were experts at shifting the blame to Israel...they massacred athletes at the Olympics, murdered tourists at the Rome and Vienna airports, hijacked planes and cruiseships because of something "israel did".

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades or Popular Resistance Committees learned from the PLO and also became experts at shifting the blame to Israel...they'd send jihadist suicide bombers into Israel to murder innocent people because of something "israel did".

Hamas's "military wing" dug under the pre-1967 Gaza border and tunneled into Israel last Sunday, killed two Israeli soldiers and kidnapped another... because of something "israel did".

And today Palestinian officials warned that "efforts to free an Israeli soldier have hit an impasse"...Gosh, why? Well it turns out because of something "israel did"... which - ironically - was to reject the militant's demands.

I picture a line of hostages, bound, blind-folded and kneeling on a concrete floor, while a jihadi in a keffiyeh walks behind them, shooting each in the back of a neck while speaking into a camcorder:

*POP*, "See what you made me do?!", *POP*, "See what you made me do?!"
*POP*, "See what you made me do?!", *POP*, "See what you made me do?!"
*POP*, "See what you made me do?!"

And we in the West have a media/intelligentsia with this sick tendency to turn every thug slimebucket murderer with a cause into a victim because he doesn't wear a uniform, and he uses a rifle or a homemade bomb instead of a tank and a jet fighter. It probably stems back to the waves of 1960s/70s neo-socialist university guilt when all terrorists and criminal brutes became "victims of persecution" and "political prisoners", and societal/economic pressures were the root causes that "made" them commit horrible acts like blowing up airlines and throwing disabled people off the sides of ships. Nevermind that since the late 19th century terrorists were generally privileged little snots who knew everything, got mad as hell and decided to take it anymore - though they probably couldn't define in detail what it was that made them mad as hell without a lot of twisted logic and propaganda. Now they have MoveOn.org, Rage Against the Machine, Loose Change, and the internet instead of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Mao ("Che" Guevara I guess is a kind of constant for silver-spoon revolutionaries).

Now, as in the 1970s when this garbage began in earnest, the Muslim fanatics still get a free pass to do whatever barbaric acts they want - because of something Israel/America did. In the early days of modern terrorism, specifically among the anti-Tsarists like Narodnaya Volya or the Anarchists, that to get punished for committing terrorism was an accepted risk. Now that risk is not seen as something to come with the territory. Not only is the evil "they" deserving of being attacked in the most brutal fashion, but the idea that "they" would DARE to respond in kind to violence is seen as the height of arrogance. Or there is the fun little delusion of moral equivalence. "9/11 was horrible, but invading Afghanistan was equally horrible.", or "Bombing pizza parlors, discotheques and ice cream shops was horrible, but killing Sheikh Yassin was equally horrible."

There are times when I think I'm the only sane person on earth. I guess that's why I come here.

[zenith-nadir]

*POP*, "See what you made me do?!", *POP*, "See what you made me do?!"Exactly...

1) With malice aforethought Hamas's "military wing" :rolleyes: digs under the 1967 border to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers.

2) Two Israeli soldiers are killed and one wounded, he is taken hostage back to Gaza.

3) After waiting a few days for intense diplomatic efforts by Egypt and Jordan to bear fruit, which it did not, Israel finally sends troops into Gaza.

4) Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya denounces Israel today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5132514.stm) saying:

"Israeli attacks were making negotiations on the release of a captured soldier more difficult"

and

"Israel was using Cpl Gilad Shalit's capture by militants as a pretext to bring down his government."

I've seen this replayed endlessly over the past 20 years. The dynamic of Palestinian terrorism has been so manipulated over the years that Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya has no problem turning the victims into aggressors - Israel - and the perpetrators into victims - Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority. Arafat was a master at it, he explained every single international terror attack and all those dead people murdered by the PLO as Israel's responsibility for "occupying Palestinian land". It's the oldest game in town.

[Polaris]

And when they finally kill him, how much you want to bet they'll blame Israeli inaction and say it has no respect for the lives of its soldiers?

[Atlas]

The MSM prefers the word "captured" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060701/wl_nm/mideast_soldier_condition_dc) to kidnap or abduct. If they don't point out the messy details ZN enumerates I suppose capture is valid. (The reports cited below came from linked items found at Little Green Footballs (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php))
RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - An Israeli soldier captured by Palestinian militants a week ago is alive and in a stable condition after being treated for wounds, a Palestinian official said on Saturday.
Obviously Reuters didn't want to use the the emotionally charged word "kidnapped" (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21307_AP_Repeats-_Hamas_Ministers_Kidnapped&only) but the Associated Press didn't shy away (though it was the Hamas officials that were kidnapped). They have editted their article now I see... if you follow the link to the underlying article the AP seems to have removed the offending line.

Hizbullah, Hamas' little brother has this to say... (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3269563,00.html)
"There are 10,000 detainees and there is no method to free them except this method, except this path," Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah said.
"I warn the states, governments and political leaders that are pressuring the Palestinian resistance to free this Israeli soldier with nothing in return that the result will be ...to close the door entirely on 10,000 detainees in Israeli jails," he said.
In unrelated news (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885889961&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull), The UN Human Rights Council passed some business...
The new UN Human Rights Council voted Friday to make a review of alleged human rights abuses by Israel a permanent feature of every council session.
The resolution, which was sponsored by Islamic countries, was passed by a vote of 29-12, with five abstentions. It effectively revives a practice of the UN's dissolved Human Rights Commission, which also reviewed alleged Israeli abuses every time it met.

The one good thing is that the Gaza Palestinians had their damaged power station insured. The US is on the hook for $48 million (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733394.html). I wonder if we should let Halliburton try to rebuild it or just give the $48 million to the Hamas government. I wonder if we have a choice.


Edit to add: Debka http://www.debka.com/ is casting doubt on the claim that a doctor treated the kidnapped soldier...

Claims that a Palestinian doctor examined the missing soldier last Thursday, said he was in stable condition and treated him for three bullet wounds, were widely reported by Israeli and foreign media Saturday, July 1. Had they been true, they would have partly meet Israel’s prior demand for proof that the kidnapped soldier is still alive before discussing terms for his release. Such proof has still not been delivered.
Hamas minister Ziyad Abu Ain, who was quoted as hearing from sources close to the mediators about the doctor’s so-called visit to Gilead Shalit, said he was only repeating information he had heard broadcast by the media.


More to add: I see that the US taxpayer is not "on the hook" for that $48 million... From a reader update attached to the linked article...

LGF reader Catttt points out one bright spot in the story: the $48 million is insurance from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, a self-sustaining agency that charges market-based fees for its products. So at least this bail-out, unlike many others, costs the taxpayers nothing.

[Dcdrac]

it is simple it is quite obvious really a non aligned force takes control of the entire area and enforces peace.

[fuelair]

When you're right, your're right.

Unfortuately Israel will bend to this pressure and not exterminate Hamas.
:(
I hope not!! By the way I don't think all liberals are against Israeli over-retaliation. I am a liberal with a large self-defence is good stance so y'all be careful on blaming liberals (ok, there is a rectums wing in liberals, sorry about that, not my fault.

Edit: a for e

[Elind]

Had Hamas's "military wing" not dug under the pre-1967 Gaza border last Sunday to kill or kidnap Israeli soldiers - with malice aforethought - then I would not be even talking about this.

What?:eek: When was that?:eek: I don't remember. Must have been a good reason, like; they weren't on our side of the border!:crowded:

[geni]

Exactly...

1) With malice aforethought Hamas's "military wing" :rolleyes: digs under the 1967 border to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers.

Israel's militry wing has been confisacteing hammas members for years. I belive it is popular activity in the area. People have this anoying habit of learning from the enemy.


2) Two Israeli soldiers are killed and one wounded, he is taken hostage back to Gaza.

He was aquired in an attempt to halt Israeli agression. Sure this approach never worked on Hammas but no one claimed it was a smart move.


3) After waiting a few days for intense diplomatic efforts by Egypt and Jordan to bear fruit, which it did not, Israel finally sends troops into Gaza.


A few days is not finaly. A few days just means you decided to make sure you had everything in order before attacking. Hardly finaly.


4) Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya denounces Israel today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5132514.stm) saying:



I've seen this replayed endlessly over the past 20 years. The dynamic of Palestinian terrorism has been so manipulated over the years that Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya has no problem turning the victims into aggressors - Israel - and the perpetrators into victims - Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority. Arafat was a master at it, he explained every single international terror attack and all those dead people murdered by the PLO as Israel's responsibility for "occupying Palestinian land". It's the oldest game in town.

Oh come on if there have not been a significant number of high level political and militry types itching to have a go at hammas then the IDF is lead by fools. Now they have an excuse. Sure it would be better if a little girl was captured but you make do with what you have. After all if britian can go to war over an ear an invasion due to an involentry repositioning of a troop is quite reasonable.

[zenith-nadir]

Israel's militry wing has been confisacteing hammas members for years. I belive it is popular activity in the area. People have this anoying habit of learning from the enemy.I know, how dare Israel quote, "confisacteing hammas members", unquote. I think it has something to do with Hamas's well-documented history of terrorism, Hamas's repeated calls to destroy Israel and that Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization....but I could be wrong, and maybe I am simply misunderstanding Hamas as Israel is.

He was aquired in an attempt to halt Israeli agression. Sure this approach never worked on Hammas but no one claimed it was a smart move.Yes, digging 800 meter tunnels under borders and attacking Israeli army outposts inside Israel is always is a good way to halt Israeli aggression...

A few days is not finaly. A few days just means you decided to make sure you had everything in order before attacking. Hardly finaly.Damn those Israelis, I thought they were waiting for a diplomatic solution to the hostage taking and all that time they were really scheming.

Oh come on if there have not been a significant number of high level political and militry types itching to have a go at hammas then the IDF is lead by fools.I think it has something to do with Hamas's well-documented history of terrorism, Hamas's repeated calls to destroy Israel and that Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization.

Now they have an excuse.Israel always has an "excuse" to oppress Palestinian terrorist organizations, it's unfair, naked oppression and a crime against humanity.

Sure it would be better if a little girl was captured but you make do with what you have. I know, it's a shame all Israel has to work with is two dead soldiers and a hostage taking ...but you make do with what you have.

After all if britian can go to war over an ear an invasion due to an involentry repositioning of a troop is quite reasonable.Huh?

{edited to add}

Israel hits Palestinian PM's Gaza office (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060702/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_381) - AP

Palestinians witnesses said two missiles fired by attack helicopters hit the Gaza City office of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas early Sunday, slightly injuring a bystander and setting the empty building on fire.

Hamas, which controls the Palestinian Cabinet after winning legislative elections in January, insisted Shalit should not be freed without a prisoner swap.

Israel "should understand that it is not easy for the Palestinian people to say, 'OK, we can release him,' ... without a price," said Ghazi Hamad, a spokesman for the Hamas-led Cabinet.(emphasis mine)

Man those Hamas folks are completely delusional.

[Dr Adequate]

Huh? He's referring to the War of Jenkins' Ear

[geni]

I know, how dare Israel quote, "confisacteing hammas members", unquote. I think it has something to do with Hamas's well-documented history of terrorism, Hamas's repeated calls to destroy Israel and that Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization....but I could be wrong, and maybe I am simply misunderstanding Hamas as Israel is.

You are suggesting I see anything wrong with neutraliseing Hammas?


Yes, digging 800 meter tunnels under borders and attacking Israeli army outposts inside Israel is always is a good way to halt Israeli aggression...

Well Israel tried it the other way around so they must think it works.


Damn those Israelis, I thought they were waiting for a diplomatic solution to the hostage taking and all that time they were really scheming.


I think we can expect the IDF to be competant enough to plan and get things ready. You generaly wait more than a few days for a diplmation solution if you seriously want one.


I think it has something to do with Hamas's well-documented history of terrorism, Hamas's repeated calls to destroy Israel and that Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization.

99% certian the last one does not matter to Israel.


Israel always has an "excuse" to oppress Palestinian terrorist organizations, it's unfair, naked oppression and a crime against humanity.


Any competant militry does. For some reason people tend not to support wars on the basis of "because we want to".


I know, it's a shame all Israel has to work with is two dead soldiers and a hostage taking ...but you make do with what you have.

Do anyone of them have a granny dying of cancer or something? griveing relatives are always good.



Man those Hamas folks are completely delusional.

No just useing a different logical basis. They can afford to lose cannon fodder and with luck being seen to try to resist the evil invader will grab them some more popularity.

The prisinor demand is probably secondary (Do you think the people on the groud really want people who will probably outrank them turn up particulary when you consider the posibility that some may now be isreali agents). If anything it is being used to highlight all the palistinian prisioners.

[Kopji]

But the United States, Israel's closest ally, pointed the finger of blame at Syria, where several top Hamas militants are based

"We would not be where we are right now if it were not for Syria's support and harboring of terrorists," US ambassador John Bolton said.

Bolton pressed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to turn over for prosecution Khaled Meshaal, Hamas's exiled political leader who lives in Damascus and who famously escaped a Mossad attempt on his life in 1997.

Makes it hard to know what to think when the entire region seems like a tool for whatever anyone wants to do. Hamas wants something so they do something to Israel, Israel wants Hamas out so they do something bigger, the US wants Syria taken out so they advocate something even bigger, and at the same time everyone complains about possible escalation into a regional conflict.

We should purchase Somalia and give it to the Palestinians. :hypnotize

[Polaris]

We should purchase Somalia and give it to the Palestinians. :hypnotize

Whew, the Horn of Africa would implode in a huge anti-matter reaction.

[Elind]

Makes it hard to know what to think when the entire region seems like a tool for whatever anyone wants to do. Hamas wants something so they do something to Israel, Israel wants Hamas out so they do something bigger, the US wants Syria taken out so they advocate something even bigger, and at the same time everyone complains about possible escalation into a regional conflict.

We should purchase Somalia and give it to the Palestinians. :hypnotize

Why, so that everyone can start thinking smaller?

[The Fool]

Make the Palestinian Authority 100% responsible for the actions of the terrorists/militants who, A) use Palestinian land for bases of operation and B) use Palestinian lands to attack neighboring countries. It's very simple actually.



How do we hold them "100% responsible"? what does that involve? If we arrest and imprison every single one of them who do we hold "100% responsible" then?

[gumboot]

Someone actually suggested the only option that I think will get us anyway... though I can't see it EVER happening.

The only way I can see this being resolved is if the UN occupies Israel and Palestine IN FORCE. Not UNMOs, not aid workers, I mean full peace ENFORCEMENT - like Korea...

The UN has to come in with everything it has available, and use absolute excessive force against any and all breaches of the peace.

That will let both sides know that the slightest mistep will result in the full fury of the entire world. And within a very short time it will become very clear which side has been dragging their heels.

But, of course, it will never happen because the UN is a Jellyfish.

-Andrew

[geni]

Someone actually suggested the only option that I think will get us anyway... though I can't see it EVER happening.

The only way I can see this being resolved is if the UN occupies Israel and Palestine IN FORCE. Not UNMOs, not aid workers, I mean full peace ENFORCEMENT - like Korea...

The UN has to come in with everything it has available, and use absolute excessive force against any and all breaches of the peace.


Invadeing a nuclear power which has a signidicant percentage of the population beliveing they are doing gods will is generaly a bad idea.

[gumboot]

Its not invasion if it's the UN, it's "Peace Enforcement" (yeah, I know...) Bear in mind I am talking temporary occupation here... the UN becoming the Peace Enforcers to stop the cycle of violence that has hindered diplomatic solutions.

Were it the entire authority of the UN, there's really nothing Israel could do about it... what's it going to do? Nuke the UN headquarters in the USA?

I honestly think you might find, if the UN offered the right way, Israel would actually be supportive - that is assuming Israel genuinely just wants to peacefully co-exist with Palestine.

But this is all hypothetical fantasy land. If the UN did this, it would mean the USA, France, Britain, Russia and China (at the very least) were all in total agreement that it should be done. Any group that attempted military action against such a clear expression of intent by the UN would be commiting national suicide (and I mean literally, not metaphorically).

I just want to stress, we all know this is NEVER going to happen. Mainly because neither Palestine nor Israel are important enough for the world to care about.

-Andrew

[a_unique_person]

In past negotiations, Israel has made it quite clear it does not want the UN involved.

[The Fool]

In past negotiations, Israel has made it quite clear it does not want the UN involved.
And I can't Imagine The IDF watching the UN occupy Israel or any part of israel or even any parts of the occupied territories. I couldn't imagine any nation going for that Idea.

Anyway, I doubt if any western nation or even the USA could move in and occupy israel without a lot of resistance from regular armed forces until they are gone, followed by militia and insurgency untill they are gone...then ongoing civil disobedience and ad-hoc resistance.

Imagine if the UN troops contained German units? sheesh...

I've never served on UN duty but I know people who have served on UN duty in SE Asia and there is a very good reason that the UN doesn't go in without the support of the civil authority. The UN are really no more that very heavily armed police. They can't function in an armed conflict against a civil authority with a regular army. Large casualties from even a brief company level battle over a misunderstood act would cause the supply of UN troops to collapse. No nation likes to send troops to die under another nations officers.

It would have to fall to one nation alone to do it and the only one I can think that could do it would be the US.....so lets talk about a US invasion of Israel....this is getting truly silly now ....

[gumboot]

I've never served on UN duty but I know people who have served on UN duty in SE Asia and there is a very good reason that the UN doesn't go in without the support of the civil authority. The UN are really no more that very heavily armed police.


The UN quite often go into places they're not really wanted, in fact that's normally the case. A UN presence is usually imposed, not offered. And the reason they're nothing more than a police force (very lightly armed, usually, if at all) is because the UN is a jellyfish, like the League of Nations before it.

I agree with your point though, that this is silly nonsense. It won't happen. Not in a million years (well...). For starters, as you said, the US would have to be directly involved, and that's simply never going to happen.

I never claimed there was anything realistic about this event happening, I merely claimed I think it the only way of solving the conflict (short of one side completely destroying the other).

-Andrew

[zenith-nadir]

How do we hold them "100% responsible"? what does that involve? If we arrest and imprison every single one of them who do we hold "100% responsible" then?Who's responsible for law and order in Australia? The New Zealand government? The Canadian Government? The South African Government? Why it's none of the above, it's the Australian government that has the reponsibility for law and order in Australia. Likewise it's the Palestinian Authority who is responsible for law and order in areas under their control...like Gaza....which became a true 100% jew-free™ zone a year ago. Ergo if Palestinian terrorists are firing rockets at the neighbors every single day, and tunnelling under borders to kill and kidnap the neighbors, then the reponsibility to stop these terror attack falls squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinian Authority. It's a no-brainer really.

The only way I can see this being resolved is if the UN occupies IsraelIsrael is under control, it doesn't have several paramilitary islamist terror organizations in the streets.

...and Palestine IN FORCE.Here's what happened to the UN in Gaza:

03 January 2006 (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/eed216406b50bf6485256ce10072f637/fd987e6083b5efea852570ec0058358f!OpenDocument)

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) condemns the attack on a United Nations facility in Gaza on the morning of 1 January 2006 which included the beating of a UN guard by unknown assailants before they bombed the premises.(emphasis mine)

Or how about the International Red Cross?

7-11-2002 (http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/5FNQYL)

Geneva (ICRC) – A delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was abducted by four young men at midday today in front of the ICRC office in Khan Younis, in the Gaza Strip.(emphasis mine)

09 August 2005 (http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2005/92-2005.htm)

In the context of the ever-deteriorating internal security situation, three UNRWA staff members were kidnapped by an armed group in Khan Yunis, but Palestinian security services were able to free them after one hour. This incident was preceded by a series of similar incidents, including shooting at the offices of the ICRC in Khan Yunis. The ICRC decided to close these offices and suspend its field activities in the Gaza Strip as a result.(emphasis mine)

Or how about the Palestine Red Crescent Society? Surely Palestinian terrorists wouldn't attack their own Palestine Red Crescent Society....

09 August 2005 (http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2005/92-2005.htm) - (continued)

At approximately 15:30, gunmen broke into and seized control over the headquarters of the Palestine Red Crescent Society in the al-Amal neighborhood of Khan Yunis and demanded al-Farra's release. A number of other gunmen rushed into the streets, where they forced traders to close their shops and set fire to tires. At approximately 19:00, the gunmen left the headquarters of the Palestine Red Crescent Society but soon after, at approximately 19:30, a number of gunmen moved towards the Municipality of Khan Yunis and attempted to seize control over its offices. These gunmen attacked some journalists who were near offices of the Municipality. One of the gunmen threw a sound bomb at the journalists, injuring one of them, 32-year-old Nahid 'Abdul Hadi al-Khatib.(emphasis mine)

As any true skeptic can see from the documentation I just cited it's not only Israel who comes under attack by the various Palestinian islamist terror organizations but it is even the UN, the Palestine Red Crescent Society and the International Committee of the Red Cross...who, ironically, are there to help Palestinians.

Oh, and by the way:

Jul. 1, 2006 14:21 (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885892820&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Palestinian Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said late Saturday he was confident an agreement could be reached to end the crisis with Israel and free IDF Cpl. Gilad Shalit, who was abducted by Palestinian operatives last Sunday.

"Regarding the soldier, we will surely reach an agreement. It is not a dead end. People want an acceptable solution," Abbas told reporters.

"I am afraid that what is to come is going to be dangerous because we can't bear another serious aggression and another occupation.

See how that was worded. It is Palestinians who are firing Qassam rockets at civilians inside Israel every day... and it was Palestinians who tunneled under the border, killed two Israeli soldiers, and kidnapped another that triggered this latest event.. but Abbas says:

"I am afraid that what is to come is going to be dangerous because we can't bear another serious aggression and another occupation. (emphasis mine)

That is how manipulated the dynamic of Palestinian terrorism has become. The poor old Palestinians simply "can't bear another serious aggression and another occupation" as various Palestinian militants fire Qassam rockets at civilians inside Israel and hold Israelis hostage.

{edited to add}

...and now the UN get's involved..

UN: IDF operation in Gaza could displace up to 25,000 people (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733694.html) - Reuters

Up to 25,000 Palestinians could be forced from their homes in northern Gaza alone if Israel decides to launch a full-scale assault on the densely populated coastal strip, the United Nations said on Sunday.

"We estimate that 25,000 people could be forced to flee Beit Hanun if Israel attacks in the north, as it has indicated," Christer Nordahl, the deputy director of the UN's relief agency in Gaza, told Reuters, referring to a town in the area where the IDF raided last week.(emphasis mine)

Wow....they could also win the frikkin lottery if they all had the winning numbers! But since we are dealing in "coulds" now why would Israel want to launch a assault on Beit Hanun?

UN: IDF operation in Gaza could displace up to 25,000 people (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733694.html) - (continued)

He said Israeli troops entered Beit Hanun, frequently used by militants to fire rockets into Israel, on Saturday and asked a family to leave before themselves withdrawing early on Sunday.

"Beit Hanun is a place that the Israeli army is likely to want to occupy and take complete control of because it wants to stop the rockets being fired from there," Nordahl said.(emphasis mine)

How dare Israel want to stop rockets being fired at Israelis...why that is a crime against humanity!

UN: IDF operation in Gaza could displace up to 25,000 people (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733694.html) - (continued)

Residents of Beit Hanun, where many poor families live less than 100 meters from the Israeli border, expressed fear of a possible invasion on Sunday and said they hoped Palestinian militants would defend them against assault.

"From what I hear, the militant factions will be here to protect us and will use all means possible, including suicide attacks," said Moin al-Athamna, 24, an unemployed man who lost his left leg in Israeli-Palestinian clashes in 2000. As you can plainly see these folks are delusional and it is infact the militant factions firing rockets at the country next door from Beit Hanun that puts them in danger in the first place.

[gumboot]

Who's responsible for law and order in Australia? Why it's none of the above, it's the Australian government that has the reponsibility for law and order in Australia.

Just to be pedantic (I 100% agree with your point) the Australian Police are responsible for law and order - and Police in Commonwealth nations (like officers in the military) have royal warrants direct from the monarch - they don't technically work for the government. (theoretically the monarch could dissolve parliament and rule directly, and the police will still serve as per usual... well... until all the money ran out because the monarch can't raise taxes)

On the remainder of your post, I also agree.

Let me just clarify, I wasn't talking about the UN asserting control - you're right, Israel is under control. I was merely referring to resolving the conflict.

Before I started reading the threads here about Palestine/Israel I had a very middle-ground view. As far as I was concerned the world would be a better place if a giant rift appeared in the ground and the entire area just vanished.

However, having now seen more evidence and more material (the sort our media never reveals) I am starting to sway towards the Israeli side.

The unspoken implication in my theory of UN resolution of the conflict was that in the event of full UN occupation the Palestinians would continue to attack the UN, thus showing to the world that they are not making any attempt to make the scenario work.

Both groups have been at this for 50 years. Israel has established a democratic, secular, functioning nation, with a professional army, judicial system, and all the other trappings of modern society. They have done this from scratch, with varying degrees of assistance from the outside world, and with incredible difficulties, including invasion and unending terrorism. They have turned arid desert into farmland, they have on occasion shown incredible lenience and "friendliness" to the Palestinians (making concessions no other nation would ever consider).

In contrast, in 50 years, Palestine has failed to do any of the above. They seem to have done quite the opposite. It seems pretty clear to me which side is dragging their heels.

-Andrew

[zenith-nadir]

The unspoken implication in my theory of UN resolution of the conflict was that in the event of full UN occupation the Palestinians would continue to attack the UN, thus showing to the world that they are not making any attempt to make the scenario work.Palestinian militants already blew up a United Nations facility in Gaza on the morning of 1 January 2006.

In contrast, in 50 years, Palestine has failed to do any of the above. They seem to have done quite the opposite. It seems pretty clear to me which side is dragging their heels.

-AndrewFrom 1948 to 1967 the Arabs/Palestinians controlled all of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem and there was never talk about a Palestinian state until Israel was destroyed first. The PLO Charter was only adopted - ( July 1-17, 1968 ) - after the Palestinians lost the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. It too called for the destruction of Israel.

Well after the Munich massacre, the Rome and Vienna airport massacres, a civil war in Jordan and a civil war in Lebanon and thousands of international terror attacks and murders in the 70's and 80's the PLO realized it wasn't gonna destroy Israel after all. So on November 15th ,1988 the PNC approved a Palestinian Declaration of Independence which basically blames everyone else for "depriving Palestinians of their right to self-determination" - especially Israel. Mean old Israel.

Ironically the Palestinians didn't chose to "self-determine" from 5,000 B.C. to 1967 A.D. But suddenly in 1968 it became a big deal. That is not to say that Palestinians don't have the right today, it's just pointing out that Palestinians never "self-determined" in several thousand years even when the Arabs did control all of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

{edited to add}

Hamas: We'll target schools (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3270120,00.html) - Reuters

Hamas' military wing threatens to target schools, infrastructure if Israel continues air strikes against Gaza infrastructure; commander says region heading for 'sea of blood'

"If they continue with these attacks we will strike similar targets in the Zionist Occupation which we have not targeted until now," said Abu Ubaida, a spokesman for the armed wing of the Palestinian militant movement.

"If the Occupation continues aggression and terrorism against our people ... It will drag the region into a sea of blood and the consequences will be terrible. We still have many options," said Abu Ubaida.Even the Hamas terrorists have "spokesman" - Abu Ubaida - who remain free to make threats against Israeli school kids. Terrorists have PR spokesmen? Sure do in Palestine. "Aggression and terrorism against our people" is the Hamas euphemism for arresting and even killing Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa/Popular Resistance terrorists who A) fire rockets into Israel, B) suicide bomb buses and restaurants, and C) tunnel under borders to kill and capture Israelis.

And that's the game. The victims are turned into the aggressors - Israel - and the perpetrators into the victims - Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa/Popular Resistance terrorists.

[The Fool]

Who's responsible for law and order in Australia? The New Zealand government? The Canadian Government? The South African Government? Why it's none of the above, it's the Australian government that has the reponsibility for law and order in Australia. Likewise it's the Palestinian Authority who is responsible for law and order in areas under their control...like Gaza....which became a true 100% jew-free™ zone a year ago. Ergo if Palestinian terrorists are firing rockets at the neighbors every single day, and tunnelling under borders to kill and kidnap the neighbors, then the reponsibility to stop these terror attack falls squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinian Authority. It's a no-brainer really.


ok as I've said before lets hold a fireworks display and announce that we have determined that the PA is responsible for law and order.....

What now? This is the point I am constantly asking you and you are constantly ignoring by simply repeating who you think is responsible.

How are you going to "hold them responsible".... arrest them all? who is responsible then? Probems do not vanish simply because you announce who's fault you think it is.

[webfusion]

How are you going to "hold them responsible".... arrest them all? who is responsible then?

Arrest them all? I don't believe Israel is aiming for that. The arrests so far have been carefully considered, and specific.
As for holding certain individuals responsible, right now the most obvious target is Khaled Mashaal, in Syria.
The plan of Israel is to assassinate the current masterminds of violent actions:
Israel's PM Ehud Olmert said that the IDF and the defense establishment were given explicit instructions to harm anyone who "bears responsibility for terror actions."

And for sure the best hope for the palestinians is for a new grassroots of leaders to emerge who are devoted to overturning the old methodology of terrorism, bloodshed and war waged in the name of 'liberating palestine' from the jews.

Is there no political segment anywhere in palestinian society that is prepared to place decades-old animosities aside, for the good of their own people? Are they so inundated with poison and bile that is is impossible for moderates to emerge who call for a different path?

Is the rule of the gun so ingrained in the palestinian psyche that they cannot consider laying down their arms and seeking another avenue to achieve their aims?

[Elind]

ok as I've said before lets hold a fireworks display and announce that we have determined that the PA is responsible for law and order.....

What now? This is the point I am constantly asking you and you are constantly ignoring by simply repeating who you think is responsible.

How are you going to "hold them responsible".... arrest them all? who is responsible then? Probems do not vanish simply because you announce who's fault you think it is.

It is a fairly common principle on this planet that those who rule have responsibility for their society, particularly when they are elected. Do you agree? You do seem to apply that principle when convenient.

If they are incapable of exercising any control in relatively simple matters like roaming gangs putting together similar looking rockets and firing them from well known locations, and so on, then they either are liars or there is no government.

In the former case it is legitimate to "hold them responsible" and act accordingly, or you should be begging for someone responsible to go in there and take control from these criminal gangs.

You do neither, so what is the third secret solution?

[a_unique_person]

And what part of sovereign Israel has the West Bank and Gaza been for the past 40 or so years? It's a little optimistic to think that you can decide it was a bad mistake, and that that will be the end of the matter.

[webfusion]

Meanwhile, as our little hypothetical discussion of "who is responsible?" continues, the IDF has said that in the event of the captured soldier Cpl. Shalit being unconditionally released, they are quite prepared to arrange for a rather substantial number of palestinian prisoners to be freed (including the HAMAS ministers).

Here is the problem ---- the IDF cannot openly trade Shalit for palestinian prisoners. The IDF, however, can make it clear that prisoners are going to be returned to the PA, once their man is accounted for.

It cannot be directly represented as a quid-pro-quo. It cannot be done in such a way as to be a reward for the HAMAS.

Apparently the way this all can be accomplished, is for Khaled Mashaal to be assassinated. He is the person 'responsible' according to the Israelis and once his demise is accomplished, the IDF can withdraw, and say that they expect for Shalit to be turned over, and the whole episode will be declared over (with many many palestinian detainees going back home as the non-negotiated outcome).

That is the direction this whole thing is headed now, in my view.

[Atlas]

The Fool,

What do you think is the answer? Certainly in a kidnapping it isn't wrong to name the guilty party. You're not saying Israel is wrong in pursuing this aggressively, are you?

I think that Hamas is hoping that kidnapping will be a tool, now and in the future,to leverage prisoner exchanges. They say as much. Does Israel have any choice in responding with measures so harsh that Hamas will not choose to use the tactic again?

How do you read the situation? What should Israel be doing?

If Hamas is a terrorist organization who say they want to destroy Israel, is it wrong to go after their leadership in an effort to "hold Hamas accountable"?

[Mycroft]

ok as I've said before lets hold a fireworks display and announce that we have determined that the PA is responsible for law and order.....

What now? This is the point I am constantly asking you and you are constantly ignoring by simply repeating who you think is responsible.

How are you going to "hold them responsible".... arrest them all? who is responsible then? Probems do not vanish simply because you announce who's fault you think it is.

One simple way to "hold them responsible" is to acknowledge that if the Hamas led Palestinian government doesn’t do anything to stop the firing of rockets then it’s because it’s Palestinian policy to allow them to be fired. Therefore complaints, actions and sanctions may rightly be addressed at the Palestinian government until that policy is changed.

Now how hard was that?

Let me put a question back at you:

What specific actions do you believe should be taken to get the Palestinian government to police these militants?

[webfusion]

mycroft asks:

Let me put a question back at you:

What specific actions do you believe should be taken to get the Palestinian government to police these militants?

How about hiring them to be part of the police?

[The Fool]

It is a fairly common principle on this planet that those who rule have responsibility for their society, particularly when they are elected. Do you agree? You do seem to apply that principle when convenient.

If they are incapable of exercising any control in relatively simple matters like roaming gangs putting together similar looking rockets and firing them from well known locations, and so on, then they either are liars or there is no government.

In the former case it is legitimate to "hold them responsible" and act accordingly, or you should be begging for someone responsible to go in there and take control from these criminal gangs.

You do neither, so what is the third secret solution?

so thanks for telling me gain who you feel is responsible...so lets arrest every one of them....what then? Who will you hold responsible then? And when do we start creating a stong economically viable palestinian state with a civil authority powerfull enough to impose its will on the many factions currently wrestling for control.

[webfusion]

The Fool asks: And when do we start creating a stong economically viable palestinian state with a civil authority powerfull enough to impose its will on the many factions currently wrestling for control?

Is this to be interpreted as your calling here and now for international support of HAMAS?
Are they the civil authority you wish to see impose its will?

[Darat]

Is this to be interpreted as your calling here and now for international support of HAMAS?
Are they the civil authority you wish to see impose its will?

I can't see how you can deduce any form of support for Hamas from The Fool's statement. His statement albeit simplistic is a very sensible one and one that will (unless a complete removal of the Palestinian people is the policy that will be adopted) have to happen at some time if "we" ever expect there to be a stable and free Palestinian nation.

(ETA - the only clarification I would add is of course the "we" that does this is the Palestinians and Israelis.)

[Mycroft]

so thanks for telling me gain who you feel is responsible...so lets arrest every one of them....what then? Who will you hold responsible then? And when do we start creating a stong economically viable palestinian state with a civil authority powerfull enough to impose its will on the many factions currently wrestling for control.


One simple way to "hold them responsible" is to acknowledge that if the Hamas led Palestinian government doesn’t do anything to stop the firing of rockets then it’s because it’s Palestinian policy to allow them to be fired. Therefore complaints, actions and sanctions may rightly be addressed at the Palestinian government until that policy is changed.

Now how hard was that?

Let me put a question back at you:

What specific actions do you believe should be taken to get the Palestinian government to police these militants?

[webfusion]

I can't see how you can deduce any form of support for Hamas from The Fool's statement.

He used the term "civil authority" and then proceeded in that same sentence to refer to imposing its will on the "many factions currently wrestling for control" ----
Well, AFAIK, currently the civil authority is HAMAS.

Let TF weigh in with his reply and we'll be able to see the solution he has in mind, if he is not referring to HAMAS
(He was asked by both atlas and mycroft about what his solution is and TF avoided answering them in each instance.)

[The Fool]

(He was asked by both atlas and mycroft about what his solution is and TF avoided answering them in each instance.)

well I've explained it quite a few times in the past but I suppose it is simply based on the fact that there will be no peace in the middle east until the nationalist aspirations of all people are adressed. The road to peace starts with a strong economically viable Palestinian state. Think of a mini marshal plan.... I think this line that peace and harmony must spontaneously appear before any action is taken to sort this situation out is just plain old silly.. Thinking that pointing to one of a number of splintered factions involved in an ongoing disaster and telling them that it is thier responsibility to put it right is just plain old silly.... Assisting them in achieving it with economic sanctions is just plain old silly too...

Looks like "plain old silly" is getting quite a bit of exercise lately...

[a_unique_person]

well I've explained it quite a few times in the past but I suppose it is simply based on the fact that there will be no peace in the middle east until the nationalist aspirations of all people are adressed. The road to peace starts with a strong economically viable Palestinian state. Think of a mini marshal plan.... I think this line that peace and harmony must spontaneously appear before any action is taken to sort this situation out is just plain old silly.. Thinking that pointing to one of a number of splintered factions involved in an ongoing disaster and telling them that it is thier responsibility to put it right is just plain old silly.... Assisting them in achieving it with economic sanctions is just plain old silly too...

Looks like "plain old silly" is getting quite a bit of exercise lately...

I have to agree with that 100%. There is nothing so dangerous as a man with nothing to lose, and nothing so conservative as one who is (If we are looking at corrollaries). They want power, satellite TV and their kids to get an education. If they can't get that, then who knows what.

[zenith-nadir]

And for sure the best hope for the palestinians is for a new grassroots of leaders to emerge who are devoted to overturning the old methodology of terrorism, bloodshed and war waged in the name of 'liberating palestine' from the jews.Like that will happen. We all know that over the past decade the PA has deployed every instrument of anti-Israel propaganda - television, radio, newspapers and, most importantly, mosques, schools and summer camps. They, along with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others, have fed Palestinians a diet of such virulent anti-Semitism and denial of the Jewish connection with the land that no successor will ever be in position to contemplate breaking Arafat's & Hamas's rejectionist ideology lest he/she be branded an Israeli collaborator. The PLO/Islamist terror organizations' legacy - the romanticization of violence, the rejection of Israel, the indoctrination of a new generation in intolerance and hatred - will require years, perhaps even generations to erase.

so thanks for telling me gain who you feel is responsible...so lets arrest every one of them....what then? Who will you hold responsible then?The Palestinian Authority is responsible for law and order in areas under it's control. Even a force of 10,000 that acts professionally and is led by those who are committed to ensuring law and order could control Gaza. But since the PA allows islamist terror organizations to use Palestinian Authority lands for whatever they desire then the Palestinian Authority will be held accountable. Period, end of discussion.

And when do we start creating a stong economically viable palestinian state with a civil authority powerfull enough to impose its will on the many factions currently wrestling for control.Why do "we" have to do that? If the Palestinians wish the right to "self-determination" and a "strong economically viable palestinian state" then it is up to them to do it! It is the Palestinians who have the task of living up to the responsibility of being a state, period. No one can impose a "strong economically viable palestinian state" onto the Palestinians, they have to do that themselves....and they have blown chance after chance after chance - see: streetbattles between Palestinian factions in the 100% Jewfree™ Gaza, electing an internationally recognized terrorist organization to run the government and allowing terrorists to fire rockets into the neighbors backyard between tunneling under borders to kill and capture hostages.

I am sick and tired of the Palestinians blaming eveyone else for their woes as Palestinian terrorists fire rockets into the neighbor's backyard and tunnel under borders to kill and capture people for hostages. Sorry but that game has ended...terrorism is not "resistance" anymore...it is terrorism. We all know that Syria and Iran support the Hamas leaders in exile and have no interest in a calm Israeli-Palestinian relationship. Meanwhile as Hamas fights with Fatah in Gaza it is unable to control even its own leaders in Syria or its so-called "military wing" operating freely in Gaza, which is nothing less than the Palestinian version of the Iraqi insurgency. Actually the Iraqi insurgency is nothing less than a carbon copy of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

What would happen if the Palestinian Authority disappeared? The answer is how could you tell?

Meanwhile:

Soldier's captors give Israel ultimatum (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060703/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_416) - Associated Press

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Three Palestinian militant groups that captured an Israeli soldier issued a statement Monday giving Israel less than 24 hours to start releasing 1,500 Palestinian prisoners or "bear all the consequences."

The militant groups, in a statement posted on the Web site of the ruling Hamas party's military wing, did not expressly say what the consequences would be, but implied the soldier could be killed.

"We give the Zionist enemy until 6:00 tomorrow morning, Tuesday, July 4," the groups said in their statement(emphasis mine)

Ahhhh...the hypocrisy and irony of an internationally recognized terrorist organization who "has a website". I wonder who the host is...and why the plug hasn't been pulled on that server. I guess that would be considered "oppressing" the ruling Hamas party's military wing. :rolleyes:


{edited to add}

well I've explained it quite a few times in the past but I suppose it is simply based on the fact that there will be no peace in the middle east until the nationalist aspirations of all people are adressed.WRONG. There will be no peace in the Middle East until the internationally recognized islamofacist terror organizations operating there are disarmed and dismantled. This notion that satellite TV, a Mercedes and good schools will make islamofacist terror organizations dissapear has been completely and absolutely DEBUNKED by the terrorist bombings in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.

The road to peace starts with a strong economically viable Palestinian state.WRONG. The road to peace starts with an end of terrorism and the dismantling of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades per every single agreement the PA signed over the past decade. Once people are not afraid anymore then they can built trusting relationships which will bring about harmony and economic cooperation. If Palestinian terrorists keep firing rockets into Israel from Gaza then the Israelis don't trust the Palestinians...when the IDF lobs artillery back at the Palestinian terrorists firing rockets into Israel the Palestinians don't trust the Israelis. If neither party trusts each other then they cannot move forward. The key is to impose upon the Palestinian Authority that it cannot survive or even think about a state until such time that it is capable of imposing law and order on it's own streets.

Thinking that pointing to one of a number of splintered factions involved in an ongoing disaster and telling them that it is thier responsibility to put it right is just plain old silly....What is silly is the endless and open pass you give to the Palestinian Authority for not contolling their own streets.

[geni]

Like that will happen. We all know that over the past decade the PA has deployed every instrument of anti-Israel propaganda - television, radio, newspapers and, most importantly, mosques, schools and summer camps. They, along with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others, have fed Palestinians a diet of such virulent anti-Semitism and denial of the Jewish connection with the land that no successor will ever be in position to contemplate breaking Arafat's & Hamas's rejectionist ideology lest he/she be branded an Israeli collaborator. The PLO/Islamist terror organizations' legacy - the romanticization of violence, the rejection of Israel, the indoctrination of a new generation in intolerance and hatred - will require years, perhaps even generations to erase.

Nah. See Germany 1946 dito Japan. Russia not long after starlin and the various african leaders who tried the same thing.


The Palestinian Authority is responsible for law and order in areas under it's control. Even a force of 10,000 that acts professionally and is led by those who are committed to ensuring law and order could control Gaza.

Doubtful. the old RUC had a simular ratio of police to population and they had to call in the army to back them up.


But since the PA allows islamist terror organizations to use Palestinian Authority lands for whatever they desire then the Palestinian Authority will be held accountable. Period, end of discussion.


Allow? The PA doesn't have the abilty to neutralise hammas let alone Fatah. You know this.


Why do "we" have to do that? If the Palestinians wish the right to "self-determination" and a "strong economically viable palestinian state" then it is up to them to do it! It is the Palestinians who have the task of living up to the responsibility of being a state, period. No one can impose a "strong economically viable palestinian state" onto the Palestinians, they have to do that themselves....and they have blown chance after chance after chance - see: streetbattles between Palestinian factions in the 100% Jewfree™ Gaza, electing an internationally recognized terrorist organization to run the government and allowing terrorists to fire rockets into the neighbors backyard between tunneling under borders to kill and capture hostages.

Becuase they see no alturnative.


I am sick and tired of the Palestinians blaming eveyone else for their woes as Palestinian terrorists fire rockets into the neighbor's backyard and tunnel under borders to kill and capture people for hostages. Sorry but that game has ended...terrorism is not "resistance" anymore...it is terrorism.

Are you claiming that there is something magical about terrorism that prevents it from being a legit method of atchiveing ones goals?



We all know that Syria and Iran support the Hamas leaders in exile and have no interest in a calm Israeli-Palestinian relationship. Meanwhile as Hamas fights with Fatah in Gaza it is unable to control even its own leaders in Syria or its so-called "military wing" operating freely in Gaza, which is nothing less than the Palestinian version of the Iraqi insurgency. Actually the Iraqi insurgency is nothing less than a carbon copy of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

Not even close. Different tactics, different idiolgies and different support base.


Ahhhh...the hypocrisy and irony of an internationally recognized terrorist organization who "has a website". I wonder who the host is...and why the plug hasn't been pulled on that server. I guess that would be considered "oppressing" the ruling Hamas party's military wing. :rolleyes:


I think the events around the COS show that trying to supress stuff on the web falls firmly into the mind renching stupidity catigory.


WRONG. There will be no peace in the Middle East until the internationally recognized islamofacist terror organizations operating there are disarmed and dismantled. This notion that satellite TV, a Mercedes and good schools will make islamofacist terror organizations dissapear has been completely and absolutely DEBUNKED by the terrorist bombings in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.

The massive dispartiy between the rich and poor in those countries means they are not good examples.


WRONG. The road to peace starts with an end of terrorism and the dismantling of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades per every single agreement the PA signed over the past decade.

That is one option there are others.

[Darat]

Zenith said in response to

...snip... And for sure the best hope for the palestinians is for a new grassroots of leaders to emerge who are devoted to overturning the old methodology of terrorism, bloodshed and war waged in the name of 'liberating palestine' from the jews. ...snip...


Like that will happen.

...snip...

OK then you seem to hold the opinion that no non-terrorist group will ever hold the power in Palestine.

If that is the case what is your solution?

[zenith-nadir]

Allow? The PA doesn't have the abilty to neutralise hammas let alone Fatah. You know this.How can you say that on a skeptics message board with a straight face when Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is the leader of Fatah and Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh is the leader of Hamas. I mean really that is over-the-top woo woo to say the leaders of Fatah and Hamas "don't have the ability".

Are you claiming that there is something magical about terrorism that prevents it from being a legit method of atchiveing ones goals?Sorry, I don't do strawmen..especially ones that try to legitimize terrorism.


OK then you seem to hold the opinion that no non-terrorist group will ever hold the power in Palestine.Not what I said. What I said was that Arafat, the PLO, Hamas and others such as Islamic Jihad have so poisoned the well that it will take generations to repair the damage.

Here is an insight into the Palestinian psyche that needs to be changed;

We must remain strong (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1151878208359&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home) - Jul. 3, 2006. 07:01 AM

"We sit here with no electricity and little water. All the components of our life are ruined. But still, this time we have something Israel wants. And we cannot surrender it for nothing," said Umm Mohammed, 43, a mother of eight.Ya...and they got "something Israel wants" by tunneling under the 1967 border - which ironically they go on endlessly about - and attacking an army outpost inside Israel. But they cannot surrender "something Israel wants" for nothing... allowing a wounded hostage to go home without any extortion involved is simply un-Palestinian.

We must remain strong (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1151878208359&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home) - (continued)

"I place my trust in the captors and no one else," said spice seller Mueen Abu Akal, 37.Really? And how many Palestinians in Gaza are benefiting today from the trust you place in the captors Mueen?

We must remain strong (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1151878208359&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home) - (continued)

"What can Ismail Haniyeh do? He did not capture the Israeli. Nope. He didn't capture the Israeli. He is only the leader of Hamas in Palestine...and the Palestinian Prime Minister...but let's absolve him of any responsibility for law and order in Gaza or the actions of the hostage takers who are part of Haniyeh's ruling party.

We must remain strong (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1151878208359&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home) - (continued)

The way our life is today, we only follow the one who is strong. The Hamas government is not strong. Look at how Israel arrests so many of them. But the militants showed us they have power."Ya...they have the power to have all the economic aid, water and electricity to be shut off. BRAVO!

As anyone can see the moral of this sad story is these folks are completely delusional....to their own detriment.

[a_unique_person]

Here is an insight into the Palestinian psyche that needs to be changed;

Ya...and they got "something Israel wants" by tunneling under the 1967 border - which ironically they go endlessly on about - and attacking an army outpost inside Israel. But they cannot surrender "something Israel wants" for nothing... allowing a wounded hostage to go home without any extortion involved is simply un-Palestinian.

Really? And how many Palestinians in Gaza are benefiting today from the trust you place in the captors Mueen?

Nope. He didn't. He is only the head of Hamas in Palestine...and the Palestinian Prime Minister...but that doesn't really matter eventhough the hostage takers are part of Haniyeh's own party.

Ya...they have the power to have all the economic aid, water and electricity shut off.



The moral of this sad story is these folks are completely delusional.

Maybe so, but so have Israeli's been if they thought it could not turn out this way back in the 60's.

[geni]

How can you say that on a skeptics message board with a straight face when Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is the leader of Fatah and Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh is the leader of Hamas. I mean really that is over-the-top woo woo to say the leaders of Fatah and Hamas "don't have the ability".

No just particle. Could Ehud Olmert say "ok guys thats it we are all going back to the countries we came from" and have any real effect?


Sorry, I don't do strawmen..especially ones that try to legitimize terrorism.


It was a question. Are you saying that terrorism is not a legit technique?

[zenith-nadir]

Maybe so, but so have Israeli's been if they thought it could not turn out this way back in the 60's.Sorry a_u_p but; A) Israelis can't predict the future 40 years ahead, and B) this attack and subsequent extortion by Hamas's so-called "military wing" originated from 100% jew-free™ Gaza. As you can see having a 100% jew-free™ Gaza isn't enough of an Israeli olive branch for the Palestinians...they want all or nothing...

So far that repeatedly-failed strategy has given them nothing.

No just particle. Could Ehud Olmert say "ok guys thats it we are all going back to the countries we came from" and have any real effect?There is no way on earth you will ever convince me that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas - the leader of Fatah - and Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh - the leader of Hamas - do not have the ability to control the Palestinian street. Both were elected in "free and fair" elections by popular vote and yet you are trying to convince me that they don't have the mandate or ability to do their jobs. To that claim I say bulls**t!

It was a question. Are you saying that terrorism is not a legit technique?Terrorism is not a legitimate technique...it is a illegitimate technique.

[geni]

There is no way on earth you will ever convince me

So your positon is based on unshakerble faither rather than logic.


Terrorism is not a legitimate technique...it is a illegitimate technique.

An interesting position to take and on that forces you to adopt a carfuly crafted form of pacifism (gandi fails). Certianly your denunciation of pretty much every goverment on the planet will take some time.

[Darat]

...snip...

Not what I said. What I said was that Arafat, the PLO, Hamas and others such as Islamic Jihad have so poisoned the well that it will take generations to repair the damage.



...snip..

Zenith I often post things that people misunderstand or that I worded badly so I have to correct people so I accept your correction in good faith however you can't claim that is not what you said" Look at my post - I show what you quoted from webfusion and then what you answered with. There was no qualification or ambiguity there.

However even with you correcting my misunderstanding of your position my question remains fundamentally the same:

What is your idea for a solution to the problem you believe exists?

[Darat]

...snip...

There is no way on earth you will ever convince me that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas - the leader of Fatah - and Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh - the leader of Hamas - do not have the ability to control the Palestinian street. Both were elected in "free and fair" elections by popular vote and yet you are trying to convince me that they don't have the mandate or ability to do their jobs. To that claim I say bulls**t!

Terrorism is not a legitimate technique...it is a illegitimate technique.

I don't think in the end it is a matter of mandate it may simply be a matter of not having the apparatus of a mature state that can impose such order.

We can also see examples all over the world that even well policed states with a history of centuries of internal stability cannot prevent terrorism even within those states by their own citizens.

I hold the opinion to expect the Palestinians to do something that no other state (never mind a proto-state) has managed to do is totally and utterly unrealistic and if your policies are based on that ever happening then your polices are also unrealistic and will never come to pass.

[webfusion]

Maybe so, but so have Israelis been (delusional) if they thought it could not turn out this way back in the 60's.

You really mean their delusion began in the 1890's, (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/firstcong.html) of course.

Settlement activity began in the 1970's across the war-shattered Rhodes Armistice Lines. It started with a few ideological jews who had the silly idea of returning to one of their most important religious holy places on earth.
The government of Israel looked upon the Gush Emunim as a movement that could lead to improved economic stability for the palestinians (jobs, trade, education), improved quality of life (roads, electricity, water lines, telephones, unrestricted access to Israeli cities and transportation networks), and would enable improved relationships with their familes & relatives who still lived in Israel (where they had remained to help build the Nation of Israel in 1948).

This entire effect was in the process of being implemented, slowly but surely, as the IDF civil administration cautiously allowed fairly complete freedom of movement on the one hand and closely watched the terrorist activities on the other hand...with internal security always high priority (dead jews at the hands of terrorists during the 1940's 50's 60's 70's and 80's keeping the Israelis quite unprepared to order their troops to return in the barracks)... until December 1987.

On that winter day, an Israeli truck driver lost control of his vehicle and smashed into a van carrying palestinians (who were waiting to cross at the Erez checkpost), killing several of them. In the aftermath of that fatal road accident, rumors spread that the Israelis were intentionally 'perpetrating a massacre' and that the Erez checkpost was similar to "auschwitz" ( I kid you not ).

That was the beginning of the intifada.

While we are on the topic of the kidnapped IDF soldier, I did a quick google, out of curiosity, and found an item of note (over 20 years ago):

Jun 10, 1985 - IDF Reservist David Pelzan, from Eilat, was kidnapped and murdered by PLO terrorists.

David Pelzan.
Some things just remain the same, only the names change.

[zenith-nadir]

I don't think in the end it is a matter of mandate it may simply be a matter of not having the apparatus of a mature state that can impose such order.With all due respect that is a total cop out. The Palestinian Authority has been functioning for a decade. This whole "the Palestinian Authority is powerless" B.S. is nothing less than a deflection that the Palestinian Authority uses to shield itself from criticism.

The Palestinian Authority has 41,000 people on the payroll in the Palestinian security forces. So the claim that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas - the leader of Fatah - and Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh - the leader of Hamas - are powerless to control the Palestinian street eventhough they are the leaders of Fatah and Hamas respectively, and have 41,000 people on the payroll in the Palestinian security forces, is laughable.

What is your idea for a solution to the problem you believe exists?In my opinion the first step in resolving the issue is to make the Palestinian Authority 100% responsible for the actions of Palestinian paramilitary organizations. We all know that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades all use Palestinian Authority-controlled areas for bases of operation without fear of arrest. Why is that? If Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are perpetrating terror attacks against the wishes - so he claims - of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas - to the obvious detriment of the entire Palestinian people - then why does the Palestinian Authority do something about it?

I'll tell you why, because what you hear coming from their mouths in english is not what Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades hear coming from mouths in Arabic.

[Darat]

With all due respect that is a total cop out. The Palestinian Authority has been functioning for a decade. This whole "the Palestinian Authority is powerless" B.S. is nothing less than a deflection that the Palestinian Authority uses to shield itself from criticism.


Perhaps they do use such an excuse - however I don't so this is a strawman and you do not address my actual point.



The Palestinian Authority has 41,000 people on the payroll in the Palestinian security forces. So the claim that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas - the leader of Fatah - and Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh - the leader of Hamas - are powerless to control the Palestinian street eventhough they are the leaders of Fatah and Hamas respectively, and have 41,000 people on the payroll in the Palestinian security forces, is laughable.


A big number means nothing. I would suggest training, support, political leadership, operational leadership etc. all mean much more then any particular figure.

An example - in the 1970s the UK armed forces were somewhere in the region of (I believe) 400,000, ten times the Palestinian figure yet the UK couldn't stop terrorism by its own citizens. (Yes this is a silly use of statistics however that is exactly why I am using it i.e. to demonstrate a simple figure of "security forces" tells us very little).



In my opinion the first step in resolving the issue is to make the Palestinian Authority 100% responsible for the actions of Palestinian paramilitary organizations.


Which means exactly what? I asked what your solution would be, is this it make the PA 100% responsible for any paramilitary group that has Palestinians in it?

That does not to me seem to be anything like a solution.




We all know that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades all use Palestinian Authority-controlled areas for bases of operation without fear of arrest. Why is that? If Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are perpetrating terror attacks against the wishes - so he claims - of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas - to the obvious detriment of the entire Palestinian people - then why does the Palestinian Authority do something about it?


I've always presumed it's because most of the people in control are terrorist or at "best" terrorist sympathisers.


I'll tell you why, because what you hear coming from their mouths in english is not what Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades hear coming from mouths in Arabic.

No, it's because the leaders of the Palestinian Authority are terrorists - remember Hamas is the controlling party and that is a terrorist organisation intent on the destruction of Israel so why would we expect anything else?

[zenith-nadir]

A big number means nothing. I would suggest training, support, political leadership, operational leadership etc. all mean much more then any particular figure.You have alot to learn Darat;


Monday, February 14, 2005 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/14/MNG50BANBE1.DTL) - Matthew Kalman, Chronicle Foreign Service

04:00 PDT Bethlehem, West Bank -- In June 1998, somewhere near CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., two rows of men in military fatigues posed for their graduation photo.

All of them were officers in Palestinian General Intelligence Service, charged with hunting down terrorists and preventing attacks on Israel. They had just completed a training course, paid for by the U.S. government, in which they learned firearms and counterterrorist tactics.

But the graduation photo holds a stark warning for the Bush administration as it gets more involved in Middle East peacemaking. Some of the men in the picture later swapped sides and began using the skills they learned in Virginia against the Israelis.

Such training courses, which were suspended with the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising in September 2000, will be an integral part of Washington's aid package for the new government of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

The men in the 1998 photo came from Bethlehem, Jericho and Nablus, which all became flash points in the four-year uprising, called the intifada. Kneeling fourth from the left in the front row is Raafat Bajali. In December 2001, Bajali was killed when a bomb he was making blew up in his face. He had become a member of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the militant wing of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, said some of his comrades in the General Intelligence unit.

Bajali died in a fourth-floor apartment near Bethlehem's Manger Square, the home of Nedal Zedok, a colleague in the Palestinian security forces who also was moonlighting for Al-Aqsa. Zedok, too, was killed in the explosion.

As Israeli commentators had been warning for years, the CIA inadvertently helped train future adversaries -- as it has done in other countries, including the anti-Soviet forces in Afghanistan who ended up as Taliban and al Qaeda militants.

Monday, June 12, 2006 (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/12/mideast/index.html)

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Palestinian security forces were on high alert Monday after Palestinian Authority and Hamas security forces clashed in Rafah, resulting in two deaths.

Hamas forces also fired shots at a government building in Rafah.

In response, Fatah supporters set fire to a building used by the Hamas-led government in Ramallah.

There's a brief glimpse at the Palestinian Security Services for ya....


I asked what your solution would be, is this it make the PA 100% responsible for any paramilitary group that has Palestinians in it?The terrorist group the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades is part of Fatah, the leader of Fatah is Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. As the leader of Fatah, and as the Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas is reponsible for the actions of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. The terrorist group Hamas has a so-called "military wing", the leader in Gaza and the West Bank for Hamas is Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. As the leader of Hamas, and as the Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh is reponsible for the actions of the so-called "military wing".

The Palestinian Authority has signed several internationally-brokered treaties - (they can be Googled easily) - with Israel OBLIGATING the Palestinian Authority to disarm and dismantle the Palestinian paramilitary groups REPEATEDLY. Mahmoud Abbas - the Palestinian President - and Ismail Haniyeh - the Palestinian Prime Minister - have the responsibility to live up to the obligations that the Palestinian Authority signed onto. But as we all know Hamas rejects all previous agreements.

I'm sorry Darat but the excuses game is over. The Palestinian Authority is 100% responsible for law and order in Gaza and the West Bank and if they allow known terrorist organizations to operate from their soil then the Palestinian Authority will be held accountable. How? Arrests, and if need be a serious smack "upside the head" by the IDF....just like the Taliban were made responsible for Al Queda operating freely in Afghanistan.

[The Fool]

The Palestinian Authority is 100% responsible for law and order in Gaza and the West Bank and if they allow known terrorist organizations to operate from their soil then the Palestinian Authority will be held accountable. How? Arrests, and if need be a serious smack "upside the head" by the IDF....just like the Taliban were made responsible for Al Queda operating freely in Afghanistan.
Once again you simply repeat that the PA is responsible. OK...they are responsible. You arrest them all....then what?

[David Swidler]

Give them all wedgies.

[Darat]

You have alot to learn Darat;

There's a brief glimpse at the Palestinian Security Services for ya....



What you posted actually supports what I said.




...snip...

....just like the Taliban were made responsible for Al Queda operating freely in Afghanistan.

So your solution would be a coalition of forces led by the USA to invade the Palestinian territories? You are aware at the moment the continuing support of the new Afghanistan government by forces from countries like the UK is proving extremely costly in both money and more importantly in lives and many people are very unsure if there will ever be a point where we can say the operation is "over"?

[Mycroft]

I don't think in the end it is a matter of mandate it may simply be a matter of not having the apparatus of a mature state that can impose such order.

That doesn't excuse them of their failure to use what apparatus they have to make what efforts they can.

We can also see examples all over the world that even well policed states with a history of centuries of internal stability cannot prevent terrorism even within those states by their own citizens.

This example would be unique in that the terrorism is not directed against the state (or proto-state) but against a declared enemy of the state. Also, the leadership of this proto-state is made up of the leaders of teh same terrorist organizations that are making the attacks.

I hold the opinion to expect the Palestinians to do something that no other state (never mind a proto-state) has managed to do is totally and utterly unrealistic and if your policies are based on that ever happening then your polices are also unrealistic and will never come to pass.

The real issue here is not that they fail to accomplish this but that no effort is made. If terrorist attacks continue and the authorities responsible for putting an end to them instead turn a blind eye and do nothing, then it’s clear that allowing these attacks is policy.

[Mycroft]

Once again you simply repeat that the PA is responsible. OK...they are responsible. You arrest them all....then what?

ZN didn't actually say they should all be arrested.

[Mycroft]

What you posted actually supports what I said.


I'm curious to hear you explain what you mean by that.

Your claim was that the numbers of the security forces were irrelevant if they didn’t have the right training. ZN’s quote demonstrated that training that was given only enhanced the effectiveness of terrorists. I don’t see how that supports what you said at all.

Further, what ZN didn’t say, is that people who are terrorists already understand how terrorists operate. Their problem in shutting it down isn’t in not having the force or the knowledge to do it, but in lacking the will.

Imagine if Al Capone were given the task of shutting down the illegal production of alcohol. What would be his problems?

Would it be lack of knowledge? No, as the head of the organization that makes the alcohol, his information is better than anyone’s. He knows who makes it, where they make it, where they get their supplies, how it’s distributed and exactly what safeguards are in place to protect production. The one thing he doesn’t need is training.

The problem he would have is that shutting down the production of alcohol would mean going against his friends and undercutting the financial support of his own organization. The problem also wouldn’t be a question of having enough manpower to accomplish the job, but if the manpower he has would follow his orders to get the job done.

But the biggest problem would be if Al Capone would ever voluntarily agree to shut down production of alcohol. He’s the one person who most wants it to continue.

It’s a good analogy for the Palestinian Authority. They don’t need CIA (or Mosaad) training in counter-terrorism methods; as terrorists they could teach those classes. What they lack is the will and inclination, precisely because these organizations are made up of the very people who most want the terrorism to continue.

[Mycroft]

So your positon is based on unshakerble faither rather than logic.

I don't believe that's a reasonable conclusion based on what he said.

For example, if someone were to say, "There is no way on Earth you will ever convince me that homeopathic remedies work" it doesn’t necessarily follow that the person’s skepticism is faith based. It’s quite likely the same person has looked into the issue and decided the evidence that homeopathy works simply does not exist.


An interesting position to take and on that forces you to adopt a carfuly crafted form of pacifism (gandi fails). Certianly your denunciation of pretty much every goverment on the planet will take some time.

I don't agree that anything he said requires the denunciation of every government on the planet.

[Darat]

...snip...

The real issue here is not that they fail to accomplish this but that no effort is made. If terrorist attacks continue and the authorities responsible for putting an end to them instead turn a blind eye and do nothing, then it’s clear that allowing these attacks is policy.

Well of course it's the policy - don't forget the controlling party at the moment is Hamas which is a terrorist organisation and one that has throughout its history carried out innumerable atrocities against Israel (and quite a few against Palestinians). Part of the Hamas Charter calls for the destruction of Israel - it would be hard to see how it wouldn't be the policy of such a government to try to destroy Israel.

[Darat]

I'm curious to hear you explain what you mean by that.

Your claim was that the numbers of the security forces were irrelevant if they didn’t have the right training. ZN’s quote demonstrated that training that was given only enhanced the effectiveness of terrorists. I don’t see how that supports what you said at all.

...snip...

Er since I never said that what is there for me to explain?

[Mycroft]

Er since I never said that what is there for me to explain?

If I misunderstood you, perhaps you could elaborate then?

[Darat]

If I misunderstood you, perhaps you could elaborate then?

My point was that just pointing to the number of people in an organisation, whether that figure is big or not gives you no indication of whether that organisation is fit for purpose or not. I went on to state various other attributes that I think are more important in deciding whether an organisation is fit for purpose, the ones I listed were: training, support, political leadership, operational leadership. I also included an "etc" to indicate that they were just some of the attributes that needed to be be examined.

[Elind]

so thanks for telling me gain who you feel is responsible...so lets arrest every one of them....what then? Who will you hold responsible then? And when do we start creating a stong economically viable palestinian state with a civil authority powerfull enough to impose its will on the many factions currently wrestling for control.

I repeat the question. What do you propose?

You seem to be suggesting that this, or for that matter any previous elected Palestinian government "can't" stop anything, while simultaneously ignoring the inconveniece of their own statements that they don't want to stop anything.

They have a good thing going with their factions. It's all the same product, but whenever any one is blamed for something they can complain that they can't stop what the competitor is doing.

[CBL4]

I really hate to do this but I am going to defend Hamas. As ZN says the military wing of Hamas, the Palistinian government, tunnelled into Israel and killed 2 soldiers and captured another.

This is not terrorism. This is an act of war committed by soldiers of one government against the soldiers of another. The country that was invaded has every right to defend itself and try to free its soldier by military means. In this case, both sides are generally acting legitimately. This is a war and soldiers and strategic resources are legitimate targets.

This is totally different from the vast majority of Hamas (and other terrorist organization) actions that are aimed at civilians.

ETA: Threatening to kill a POW is not legal but capturing him was.

CBL

[Elind]

You are correct in general, but there is the little problem with the fact that the so called government, Hamas, has said it was not responsible.

[Dr Adequate]

The road to peace starts with a strong economically viable Palestinian state. "You Can't Get There From Here." Think of a mini marshal plan ... "Fables Of The Reconstruction."

... Sorry, that should have gone in the "Speak Only In Song Lyrics" thread ...

We've tried giving them money. The Israelis have made plenty of concessions. That worked really well, didn't it? The Germans and Japanese knew that they were beaten. A terrorist is necessarily someone who doesn't know that he's been beaten. Someone ought to explain to these people that they've lost. They kidnap one soldier. Israel sends in tanks. Oh look, the PA doesn't have any tanks. Do we have to draw them a picture?

[zenith-nadir]

ZN’s quote demonstrated that training that was given only enhanced the effectiveness of terrorists.Allow me to lay a foundation.

For ten years the Palestinian Authority has been negotiating on behalf of the Palestinians on the international stage. Mahmoud Abbas - the current Palestinian President - and Ismail Haniyeh - the current Palestinian Prime Minister - chose to take the responsibility - as the current elected representatives of the Palestinian Authority - to live up to the signed obligations towhich the Palestinian Authority agreed to over the past ten years.

That said, Mahmoud Abbas - the current Palestinian President - is the utmost agent of Fatah, which the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades belongs to....and Ismail Haniyeh - the current Palestinian Prime Minister - is the utmost agent of Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank, which the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades belongs to.

There is no confusion, all three entities, the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Prime Minister and the the Palestinian President are regarded as the official agents of the Palestinian people, as well as the official agents of the Fatah and Hamas parties.


a·gent (ā'jənt) pronunciation
n.

1. One that acts or has the power or authority to act.
2. One empowered to act for or represent another:


Mahmoud Abbas - the current Palestinian President - is the official agent of Fatah and Ismail Haniyeh - the current Palestinian Prime Minister - is the official agent of Hamas. The Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Prime Minister and the the Palestinian President are therefore ultimately responsible for any hostilities emanating from areas under their control....especially hostilities perpetrated by either Fatah or Hamas. Period. End of line.

America - specifically the CIA - trained and funded the Palestinian Security Services. Israel allowed the creation of the Palestinian Security Services as a concession. The Palestinian Security Services are responsible for law and order in areas under the full control of the Palestinian Authority.

In June 2001 the Palestinian Authority - under Arafat - agreed to the Israeli-Palestinian Security Implementation Work Plan, also known as the Tenet plan. It reaffirmed the commitment to the security agreements forged at the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm al-Sheikh in October, 2000.

The specifics are:



The PNA will move immediately to apprehend, question, and incarcerate terrorists in the West Bank and Gaza and will provide the security committee the names of those arrested as soon as they are apprehended, as well as a readout of actions that have been taken.
In keeping with its unilateral cease-fire declaration, the PNA will stop any Palestinian security officials from inciting, aiding, abetting, or conducting attacks against Israeli targets, including settlers.



From June 2001 until Jan 2002 there were at least 20 suicide bombings inside Israel at the hands of Hamas, Islamic Jihad & Fatah's-own Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades. So much for moving immediately to apprehend, question, and incarcerate terrorists in the West Bank and Gaza.

In January 2002 the Palestinian Authority was busted red-handed after it bought and tried to import a fifty-ton arsenal... included 122 mm and 107 mm Katyusha rockets, hundreds of shorter-range 81 mm rockets, numerous mortars, SAGGER and RPG 18 anti-tank missiles, sniper rifles, AK-47 assault rifles and mines. So much for keeping with its unilateral cease-fire declaration to stop any Palestinian officials from inciting, aiding, abetting, or conducting attacks against Israeli targets.

So out the window went the Israeli-Palestinian Security Implementation Work Plan and the Sharm al-Sheikh Summit Agreement.

(At this point someone will blame Israel - see excuse #100, Israel's continued settlement policy or excuse #101, Israel's expansionist colonialism as the reason why the Palestinian Authority failed to stop terrorism emanating from areas under it's control. Count on it)

This well-documented duplicity on the part of the Palestinian Authority - under Arafat - went on for years and it's time to call a spade a spade, proto-state or no proto-state. Once Hamas was elected the baby went out with the bath water and the duplicity was removed so that we now know Hamas really does desire to destroy Israel.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

As ZN says the military wing of Hamas, the Palistinian government, tunnelled into Israel and killed 2 soldiers and captured another.

This is not terrorism. This is an act of war committed by soldiers of one government against the soldiers of another.In one way I kinda see where you are going with that line of thought. But to qualify as "the Palestinian army Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees and the Islamic Army must:


be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
wear a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
carry arms openly;
conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.


Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees and the little-known Islamic Army follow none of the laws and customs of war ergo they do not qualify as the "Palestinian army" IMO. Meanwhile the Palestinian Security Service does qualify as the "Palestinian army".


....on a side note today is the 30th anniversary of Entebbe. Anyone here old enough to remember that? On July 4, 1976, Israeli commandos and paratroopers carried out an operation in 99 minutes, freeing more than 100 hostages out of Uganda's international airport. Palestinian terrorists from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine hijacked an Air France flight from Tel Aviv to Paris... and here we are 30 years later and still Palestinian terrorists are kidnaping Israelis in the glorious name of "Palestinian Nationalism"....:rolleyes:

[webfusion]

CBL4:I really hate to do this but I am going to defend Hamas. As ZN says the military wing of Hamas, the Palistinian government, tunnelled into Israel and killed 2 soldiers and captured another.

This is not terrorism. This is an act of war committed by soldiers of one government against the soldiers of another. The country that was invaded has every right to defend itself and try to free its soldier by military means. In this case, both sides are generally acting legitimately. This is a war and soldiers and strategic resources are legitimate targets.

This is totally different from the vast majority of Hamas (and other terrorist organization) actions that are aimed at civilians.

"I really hate to do this but I am going to defend Hamas."

Nobody here will be upset at you volunteering for this effort ... in fact, by the nature of JREF, it is expected that we review all the various angles and try not to pigeonhole or jump to conclusions without a firm grasp of the facts.

"This is not terrorism. This is an act of war committed by soldiers of one government against the soldiers of another."

Aside from the refutation which Z-N showed of these gunmen not being 'soldiers' of the Palestinian Authority, there is another issue to address:
The abduction of Cpl. Shalit was not an isolated event ---- IIRC, there was also an abduction and murder of Eliyahu Asheri (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1656024/posts) (which, I grant you, the definition may be stretched to include him as a 'soldier' -- since he was enrolled in a pre-army yeshiva program); and also the claimed abduction of the old man Noah Moskovitch (which was shown after a short while to be a hoax); following only a few days after the attempted abduction of several teenaged girls, including the lucky young lady Amona Shahar (http://www.imemc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19390&Itemid=0)-------
All of these are actually rolled up into one effort (to kidnap Israelis whoever they are and wherever they are), by the terrorist organizations who are making demands, so I think it is safe to reject the concept of 'soldiers acting against soldiers'

"The country that was invaded has every right to defend itself and try to free its soldier by military means."

Does this mean the Palestinians have the right to free its 'soldiers' (who are held in Israeli prisons)? If so, why not direct assaults of commandos against the prisons themselves? That would be a proper method in war, instead of this 'hostage-taking' and 'bargaining/trading' for the release of their prisoners.
(Israel must also consider carefully if they wish to perpetuate this method by arresting HAMAS politicians -- the experience in Lebanon (http://www.tekla-szymanski.com/engl12exchange.html) with Hizbollah leaders Sheikh Abdel Karim Obeid and Mustafa Dirani suggests that holding high-ranking members of the enemy is only marginally useful in obtaining favorable results vis-a-vis captured IDF soldiers).

"This is a war and soldiers and strategic resources are legitimate targets."

It's only minor skirmishing right now -- if the current IDF action of "Summer Rains" does develop into a full-fledged war, be assured that you'll know it.

[Art Vandelay]

This is not terrorism. This is an act of war committed by soldiers of one government against the soldiers of another. Soldiers? Where are their uniforms? What is their chain of command? Has the PA declared war on Israel?

The country that was invaded has every right to defend itself Perhaps you could explain your position further over here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58262&highlight=occupation

and try to free its soldier by military means. They are not trying to free soldiers, they are trying to free terrorists.

This is a war and soldiers and strategic resources are legitimate targets. So, then, the Israelis are free to do anything they want? There is nothing wrong with the IDF taking over Palestinian bridges and requiring Palestinians to beg for permission to pass? It seems like Palestinians want all the priviliges that come with being considered at war, but none of the drawbacks.

ETA: Threatening to kill a POW is not legal but capturing him was.But capturing him was an integral part of killing him. I don't know if engaging in operations solely for taking soldiers hostage is generally accepted as a legitimate part of warfare.

[a_unique_person]

I really hate to do this but I am going to defend Hamas. As ZN says the military wing of Hamas, the Palistinian government, tunnelled into Israel and killed 2 soldiers and captured another.

This is not terrorism. This is an act of war committed by soldiers of one government against the soldiers of another. The country that was invaded has every right to defend itself and try to free its soldier by military means. In this case, both sides are generally acting legitimately. This is a war and soldiers and strategic resources are legitimate targets.

This is totally different from the vast majority of Hamas (and other terrorist organization) actions that are aimed at civilians.

ETA: Threatening to kill a POW is not legal but capturing him was.

CBL

You are not defending them by stating a fact. The two issues often seem to get confused here.

It was not Hamas, apparently, but a sub-cell acting independently. hamas won't say so, but apparently the leadership is not too happy about the capture.

[zenith-nadir]

It was not Hamas, apparently, but a sub-cell acting independently.WRONG. It was not a "sub-cell". The parties who took credit for the attack and kidnaping are:


Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades
The Popular Resistance Committees
The Islamic Army


In fact a_u_p the list of Palestinian demands was signed by (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/26/AR2006062601236.html) the military wing of the governing Hamas movement -- the Izzadeen al-Qassam Brigades.

hamas won't say so, but apparently the leadership is not too happy about the capture.And what evidence can you cite to document that "apparently the leadership is not too happy about the capture"? Anything at all? I know they ain't too happy about the consequences of the capture - see: the IDF in Gaza - but they are generally pretty happy to allow Qassam rockets to be fired at Israel daily, so one must assume they would be thrilled that the military wing of the governing Hamas movement killed two and captured one zionist soldier.

[a_unique_person]

The demands were, the action wasn't. Hamas appears to have a few brigades, and we all know how many people usually support any group with "Popular" in it's title.

Just what I heard on the radio, unfortunately.

[webfusion]

a_unique_person drifts off into eloquent fantasy:

You are not defending them by stating a fact. The two issues often seem to get confused here.

It was not Hamas, apparently, but a sub-cell acting independently.

What facts did CBL4 present? He offered opinions only ---
1. It was not terrorism. Actually, it was not an isolated incident, it was part of overall terroristic tactics, including the events of Amona Shahar, Noah Moskovitch(Z"L), and Eliahu Asheri(Z"L).
2. The attack was an act of war by soldiers. Refuted by actual definition of what constitutes the definition of 'soldier'.
3. Both sides are generally acting legitimately. No, that's totally in dispute, and in addition to the various resolutions introduced and debated at the UN, the Swiss have condemned the Israeli side (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7A48FF45-3A8E-4ADC-A016-091DEEC6BACA.htm). So, this statement by CBL4 is not factual, either.
4. This is totally different...
No. You cannot simply ignore the officially-announced demands made by the terrorists for the release of the palestinian prisoners, which were based on several kidnappings of other Israelis, Noah Moskovitch and Eliahu Asheri. The ultimatum for the release of the palestinian prisoners included those two ----- and neither one was an IDF soldier. What is striking about the cases of those individuals, is that Asheri was already dead during the time he was being offered back to Israel in exchange for prisoners, and Moskovitch was not even being held by the gang of terrorists who nevertheless used his mysterious disappearance as leverage against Israel in the negotiations, as they claimed he was captured and would be returned if their demands for 1000 prisoners was met.

Oh, and one more thing, a_u_p

"It was not HAMAS apparently, but a sub-cell acting independently."

HAMAS is behind the kidnapping, without a doubt, and apparently it was directed and authorized by Khaled Meshaal in Damascus, with prompting from Syria and Iran. On Monday, Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz warned Syrian President Bashar al-Assad that "all the responsibility falls on him".
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1962582,00.html

[Mycroft]

This is not terrorism. This is an act of war committed by soldiers of one government against the soldiers of another. The country that was invaded has every right to defend itself and try to free its soldier by military means. In this case, both sides are generally acting legitimately. This is a war and soldiers and strategic resources are legitimate targets.


I don't know if that amounts to much of a "defense" of Hamas, but I'm glad to see your back. I hope you stay a while. :)

[geni]

I don't believe that's a reasonable conclusion based on what he said.

For example, if someone were to say, "There is no way on Earth you will ever convince me that homeopathic remedies work" it doesn’t necessarily follow that the person’s skepticism is faith based. It’s quite likely the same person has looked into the issue and decided the evidence that homeopathy works simply does not exist.

If someone came up with repeatable results showing homeopathy had an effect beyond the placebo I would reconsider my position on the subject. Not allowing for this makes your position faith based.



I don't agree that anything he said requires the denunciation of every government on the planet.

They have all used terrorism.

[a_unique_person]

They have all used terrorism.

"Shock and awe".

[Mycroft]

If someone came up with repeatable results showing homeopathy had an effect beyond the placebo I would reconsider my position on the subject. Not allowing for this makes your position faith based.

I’m repeating myself, but I’ll say it anyway:

Someone familiar with the science knows that will never happen. Therefore a statement such as ”…you will never convince me Homeopathy is effective” wouldn’t necessarily indicate a faith based belief system, but could also be said by someone who has knowledge of the issue and knows that the evidence that could convince him to change his mind doesn’t exist.


They have all used terrorism.

Only if you apply a particularly broad definition of “terrorism” that includes any use of force that might frighten someone, which would be a definition whose only purpose would be to obscure the differences between any use of force.

Geni, you are a very smart person. You don’t need to stoop to these silly semantic games to make a good argument.

[webfusion]

Someone familiar with the science knows that will never happen.

Same as our host, James Randi, fully comprehending that he will not have to pay off the Million $$ -- it's essentially a challenge to illustrate that demonstrating paranormal effect is impossible.
If you consider that 'faith based' then you have misunderstood the purpose of James Randi's efforts on our behalf.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
This thread is titled:
"militants latest demands" and their latest revision has now happened ------

According to the Al-Hayat newspaper today (Thursday),
Hamas has revised its demands that Israel release thousands of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for kidnapped Israel Defense Forces solider Gilad Shalit.

The London-based publication says the Islamic militant group is now willing to free Shalit in return for the release of all Palestinian women detained in Israelis jails, estimated at some 100 prisoners, and a further 30 male inmates who have served terms of over 20 years.
(For some reason, the request to have minors freed was dropped.)

Khaled Meshal reportedly met with a Turkish official and expressed his willingness to the said deal with Israel.

Khaled Mashal, HAMAS leader, gave his blessings and ordered the terrorists to act, setting the ball rolling for an abduction scenario (and again, I remind everyone that the idea was to capture any handy Israeli, and the IDF soldier Shalit was a bonus). Now, Meshal is trying to put out the conflagration he started.

BTW, I saw an unconfirmed item somewhere that said Meshal has left Damascus and moved to Algeria, to relieve the pressure on Syria's Assad.

[zenith-nadir]

11:13 Jul 06, '06 - IDF forces penetrated into Gaza, taking up positions in and near the three former Jewish communities of northern Gaza: Dugit, Nisanit, and Elei Sinai - from where Kassams have been fired at Israel.

Well it was a good 11 months while it lasted...over the 11 months that Israel was not in Gaza and it became the world's only jew-free zone™ - (cuz jewish settlements were the root-cause of the problem... remember that excuse?) - the Palestinians suceeded in:


being ostracized by the world for electing an internationally recognized islamist terror organization
spent more time firing Qassam rockets at israel than rebuilding any structure in Gaza
still kept Palestinians in Gazan "refugee" camps eventhough Gaza was unoccupied
buried many bodies as Hamas fighters shot it out - or blew it up - with Fatah fighters in the streets.
and dug under the 1967 border to attack and kidnap Israelis


Now the former settlements of Dugit, Nisanit, and Elei Sinai are reoccupied to stop the Qassam rockets while other IDF forces spread across Gaza searching for Hamas's Israeli hostage. Without being flippant let this be an eye opener about the realities on-the-ground in the Middle East.

[geni]

I’m repeating myself, but I’ll say it anyway:

Someone familiar with the science knows that will never happen.

Not so. We know it is unlikely to ever happen. we don't kow that it never will



Therefore a statement such as ”…you will never convince me Homeopathy is effective” wouldn’t necessarily indicate a faith based belief system, but could also be said by someone who has knowledge of the issue and knows that the evidence that could convince him to change his mind doesn’t exist.

Assumeing that the individual does not have omniscience that is imposible



Only if you apply a particularly broad definition of “terrorism” that includes any use of force that might frighten someone, which would be a definition whose only purpose would be to obscure the differences between any use of force.

I prefer any use of force that has causeing terror as it's aim. Every major (and most minor) goverments have done this at some point. Harressing fire for example is a fairly standard artilerly tactic.

You can dodge around this definetion to try and atchive some form fancy of "use of force that has frightening people as it's aim by people we don't like" but in the end such defintions don't get you very far. Furthermore you risk denying yourself a useful tool.

[webfusion]

Z-N, you forgot to mention the fiasco with their strawberries.
(devastating a multi-million-dollar hydroponics enterprise).


geni --- if it is scientifically impossible, then it cannot ever happen.
We can indeed know this.
"Assumeing that the individual does not have omniscience that is imposible"
The Sun will not rise from the West.
Would you agree?

[zenith-nadir]

Z-N, you forgot to mention the fiasco with their strawberries. (devastating a multi-million-dollar hydroponics enterprise). I am the first one to admit I am not into Schadenfreude. The reason I point these things out is to illustrate that the often-used excuses:


The occupation is responsible for...
Israel is responsible for...
Sharon is responsible for...
Sharon's policies are responsible for...
Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was the "root cause" for...
Likud is responsible for...
Likud's policies are responsible for...
Settlements are the "root cause" for...
Settlers are responsible for...
Humiliating checkpoints are responsible for...
Apartheid walls are the "root cause" for...
Israel is purposely keeping the Palestinian Authority down therefore...
etc.
etc.


...are generally false. It is the behaviour of the Palestinian Authority, and the actions of Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, The Popular Resistance Committees, The Islamic Army, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's own Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades that are the "root causes" of this Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Israel did exactly what the Palestinians wanted, uprooted over 8000 human beings from their homes in Gaza and left with the proverbial kitchen sink. Regardless what spin you put on that it remains that Israel...not the Palestinians...made the historic move.

Gaza was now a 100% Jewfree zone™! Hooray! Victory! No jews in Gaza!

Here we are 11 months later and in that time the Palestinians and the Palestinian Authority have really shown the world what's what and who's who by their actions in Gaza. And surprise surprize the IDF tanks are back in Gaza thanks to the actions of Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, The Popular Resistance Committees, The Islamic Army, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's own Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. Isn't Palestinian Nationalism wonderful!

I just hope people wake up an see the reality, one way to do that is to point out repeatedly what has been happeneing in Gaza without the Israelis, Sharon, occupation, settlers, settlements, checkpoints to blame everything on....

{edited to add}

Jul. 6, 2006 14:12 (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885933948&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

UN human rights body deplores Israel

The UN Human Rights Council on Thursday deplored Israel's military operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as breaching international humanitarian law.

By a vote of 29-11 with five abstentions, the council approved the resolution proposed by the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference ....
And round and round it goes...decade after decade...

The IDF has been very careful over the past week to minimize Palestinian casualties...yet it is still found to be "deplorable" by the UN. The only thing Israelis can do without getting UN condemnation is to die at the hand of Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, The Popular Resistance Committees, The Islamic Army, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's own Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. :rolleyes:

[geni]

Z-N, you forgot to mention the fiasco with their strawberries.
(devastating a multi-million-dollar hydroponics enterprise).


geni --- if it is scientifically impossible, then it cannot ever happen.
We can indeed know this.
"Assumeing that the individual does not have omniscience that is imposible"
The Sun will not rise from the West.
Would you agree?

No. As a test I suggest we wait about 1 trillion years.

[Skeptic]

"Shock and awe".

Sorry, but there's an enormous moral difference between those who cut off infidels' heads with rusty knives, sponsor suicide bombers, kill thousands in skyscrapers and planes on a suicide mission, and openly call for a second holocaust, on the one hand, and those who fight them, on the other.

In the same way that there was an enormous moral difference between those who supported communist totalitarianism and those who opposed it, or those who supported the Nazi idea for an Aryan Europe with all jews dead and all Slavs enslaved and those who fought them.

Really, I don't see what's so hard to see about this. Just imagine, if you will, what will happen if the Islamists win.

[Skeptic]

proposed by the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference ....

Well, it's a good thing Sudan, Libya, Iran, etc. are complaining about israel's human rights abuses.

To compensate, perhaps israel should follow their example and treat its enemies like they treat theirs.

You know, just to make sure there are no complaints.

[zenith-nadir]

Well, it's a good thing Sudan, Libya, Iran, etc. are complaining about israel's human rights abuses.That's the absurdity of it all....the utter hypocrisy Israel faces on the world stage. Algeria, Syria, Iran, Lybia, Sudan, Uganda and other fine upstanding nations all complaining about israel's human rights abuses.

At least the UN gives them a place to do it with "dignity". :D

[webfusion]

skeptic -- ...those who cut off infidels' heads with rusty knives...

Evidence? ;)

[webfusion]

Zenith-Nadir mentions:The IDF has been very careful over the past week to minimize Palestinian casualties...yet it is still found to be "deplorable" by the UN.

Two things to follow-up regarding what you just posted:

1. Headlines are now screaming that the IDF has "killed 17 Palestinians" during the incursion to Beit Lahiya/Northern Gaza.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/735455.html

Most of these men are combatants! Only two are civilian fatalities, according to palestinian sources. And this is inside a very densely-populated area, whose residents have been repeatedly warned to GET OUT of a hot war zone.
Perhaps Mohammed Atat, one of those killed in IDF tank battles with armed militants today, might not have read the pamphlets dropped all over the place? If not, then his funeral will serve as a visual and clear warning to any other illiterates in the northern gaza strip --- 'G-E-T O-U-T of the W-A-R Z-O-N-E"

2. The UN is sending a delegation to investigate 'human rights violations'
in the Palestinian territories (Reuters report) ------- Yeah yeah, but they aren't sending this delegation to investigate where Corporal Shalit is or demand to see him and verify his health is OK (he was wounded in the initial attack, remember?).

[Mycroft]

Not so. We know it is unlikely to ever happen. we don't kow that it never will

Nonsense. One could equally claim we don’t “know” that gnomes and fairies don’t exist because proving this negative is technically impossible. Stating that they do not exist and stating that you will never prove they do exist does not require a faith-based belief system.


Assumeing that the individual does not have omniscience that is imposible

A silly claim. Someone who has knowledge of an issue and follows development may certainly know the latest science pertaining to that issue, and certainly what has not been proven.


I prefer any use of force that has causeing terror as it's aim…

Whatever. Unless you’re stupid (and you’re not) you know that not everybody uses a definition of “terrorism” that’s that broad. Specifically, ZN doesn’t need to be using your definition, therefore he doesn’t need to condemn every nation in the world.

[zenith-nadir]

Specifically, ZN doesn’t need to be using your definition, therefore he doesn’t need to condemn every nation in the world.It's an interesting dynamic. Palestinian terror groups attack Israel and just about every excuse in the book is used to rationalize such acts. The one you are currently debating is that "all countries have used terrorism"...which is a blanket statement that would take weeks to unravel.

Previously other rationalizations included; "Sharon's visit to the temple mount", "zionist colonialism", "apartheid walls" and "humiliating checkpoints". It's high time to stop make excuses for groups - who with malice aforethought - attack a sovereign nation without regard to the consequences to the folks they use as human sheilds - see: Palestinians. They attack Israel because that is what they are defined by, the conflict with the zionists...without that conflict they would have to actually make something of themselves - which they can't.

[webfusion]

follow-up to my post #85 -----

The father of Corporal Shalit has met with IDF Chief of Staff Halutz and urged the immediate release of the women from jail and also the 30 senior prisoners --
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/734605.html
"I know releasing prisoners was on the agenda before the incident, as a kind of gesture, so there is no reason for it not to be on the agenda also after the incident, for the good of releasing a soldier who was sent by the state to the front lines," said Mr. Shalit.

[Elind]

They attack Israel because that is what they are defined by, the conflict with the zionists...without that conflict they would have to actually make something of themselves - which they can't.

My point exactly, made somewhere else. Although I wouldn't necessarily say they "can't" as people, since there are many who have, somewhere else. Probably a few hundred thousand in the US, for example.

However all peoples, cultures, create some kind of self image of themselves at any given time. The Palestinians, with lots of encouragement, seem to have created one that is soley based on martyrdom, apparently for its own sake.

I imagine the North Koreans have a similar view of themselves in the universe, as do some Iraqis who would never stop attacking Americans, because that would mean Americans would leave and then they would no longer be important.

[zenith-nadir]

However all peoples, cultures, create some kind of self image of themselves at any given time. The Palestinians, with lots of encouragement, seem to have created one that is soley based on martyrdom, apparently for its own sake.I support that notion with this;

Monday 29 May 2006, 15:08 Makka Time, 12:08 GMT (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0A46ECCD-F827-4CAC-A3B8-8267C05406B7.htm)

Palestinian voices: Hamas and Israel - AlJazeera

Mariam Om Ibrahim al-Kurd, 82, refugee "Please tell me, why should I recognise Israel?"



Maha Banna, 32, schoolteacher: "The previous government recognised Israel and it achieved nothing. It's simply another way to prove that [Israel] gets what it wants, when it wants."



Hasan Nakhala, 35, shopkeeper: "I deal with Israelis every day in my trade - this is my reality. So I know they exist."


Saeed Abo Salah, 40, farmer: "I would say "yes" to recognition in a referendum only after certain conditions are met. They need to recognise our rights first."


Basma Ghalayini, 22, university student: "I think that we have to recognise Israel because they have tied our recognition of them with a lot of other things - like blocking aid to us."


Ali Murad, 26, national security officer: "There is no other way other than the resistance. Hamas should not recognise Israel."


Hashim al-Hussaini, 28, economist: "I think it is essential for matters to go forward that the government recognises Israel."


Muhammad Dabbagh, 22, taxi driver: "I think Hamas has one of three choices: They can step down, since it's what everyone on the outside wants, including the Arab states. They can call for a re-election, since no one will vote for them again (they regret it and learned their lesson). Or, thirdly, the cabinet is restructured to include ministers from Fatah. Or of course, they can just recognise Israel."


Marwan Diab, 37, public relations officer: "I don't think it's a good idea, because if Hamas were to recognise Israel, at that point we will have lost all of our cards."




I like Muhammad Dabbagh's answer...but other's disturb me, such as:

"Please tell me, why should I recognise Israel?"...."There is no other way other than the resistance. Hamas should not recognise Israel."..."if Hamas were to recognise Israel, at that point we will have lost all of our cards."

Not only are these folks delusional they are in utter denial in the face of IDF tanks rolling through Gaza and the cutoff of international aid. This is the "self image" I believe you are refering to Elind.

[Elind]

Yes, but some of those comments do sound rational. I would hope to be proved wrong one day, in my lifetime that is.

[webfusion]

Al-Arabiya media now reports that IDF has killed senior Fatah/al-Aqsa Brigades man Zakaria Zubeidi.

This is big news!


eta link -- who was this guy?
http://osint.internet-haganah.com/archives/000267.html

[Dr Adequate]

Yeah yeah, but they aren't sending this delegation to investigate where Corporal Shalit is ... Perhaps they realize the futility of an unarmed delegation searching an entire country in which they are foreigners for a single man hidden and guarded by terrorists.

Or perhaps they're Evil Anti-Semites who wish to see Israel wiped out to the last man ... one at a time.

Yeah, that'll be it.

[webfusion]

Dr Adequate, they wouldn't have to search. These UN observers could ask for the HAMAS government to arrange access! After all, it's pretty obvious to everyone by now that this is not a 'rogue operation' and that there are several Palestinian leaders who are in direct touch with these people.
(see: Jibril Rajoub)

I also believe that the Red Crystal representatives could at least ask for a visit, on a strictly humanitarian basis. This is what their organization is designed for, and this case is exactly the kind of thing they should be pursuing.

Also, I just noticed on the news that Mr. Noam Shalit is now trying to coordinate a visit to gaza and wants to see his son's captors in a face-to-face meeting.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \

The big Al-Arabiya story is being contradicted by Israeli media -----
Senior Fatah man Zakaria Zubeidi flees IDF entrapment at Jenin house.

Damn, it's so hard to follow the details of what is transpiring, with sparse and unconfirmed reports, and everyone throwing out their news on the fly without checking facts and without a media censor operating to slow things down slightly. I wish Israeli Government Press Office would start acting & force the media to clear and confirm these reports from the combat zones and stop the total chaos of stuff getting aired on rumors and speculation alone.

[webfusion]

Not only are these folks delusional they are in utter denial in the face of IDF tanks rolling through Gaza...

AS Z-N notes in his link, the quotes offered here in post #100 appeared in an al-Jazeera feature story (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0A46ECCD-F827-4CAC-A3B8-8267C05406B7.htm) on May 29th, byline Laila El-Haddad.
This means their remarks were offered before any IDF tanks were rolling through Gaza.


BTW, here is a photo of schoolteacher Maha Banna:
I think we can agree there is something to be learned from her!
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/0A46ECCD-F827-4CAC-A3B8-8267C05406B7/125850/7B0ECA8FFB074365AD8BAA692DBFABFC.jpg
"Israel exists already - it doesn't need anyone to recognise its existence."

[Dr Adequate]

Dr Adequate, they wouldn't have to search. These UN observers could ask for the HAMAS government to arrange access! After all, it's pretty obvious to everyone by now that this is not a 'rogue operation' and that there are several Palestinian leaders who are in direct touch with these people. You said "investigate", not "ask nicely".

I also believe that the Red Crystal representatives could at least ask for a visit, on a strictly humanitarian basis. This is what their organization is designed for, and this case is exactly the kind of thing they should be pursuing.Yup.

Magen David Adom director-general Eli Bin also contacted Dr. Yunis el-Khatib, head of the Palestinian Red Crescent, and asked him to ensure Shalit's safety and health. Now that both MDA and the PRC have become full-fledged members of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, said Bin, Khatib was obliged to take such action. * (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885841743&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter)More here (http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/world/?content_id=3777)

Also, I just noticed on the news that Mr. Noam Shalit is now trying to coordinate a visit to gaza and wants to see his son's captors in a face-to-face meeting. So he isn't trying to arrange to see his son face-to-face? But you think they might arrange that for UN observers?

[zenith-nadir]

This means their remarks were offered before any IDF tanks were rolling through Gaza.I should have said as artillery rained down on their heads. My bad. ;)

The article I cited was to illustrate that even now, 60 years after-the-fact some Palestinians still refuse to recognise Israel. How sad is that, stuck in a perpetual delusion that Israel will someday be destroyed and Palestine will be free! Part of the "self image" concept Elind refered to.

The first quote tells the tale:
Mariam Om Ibrahim al-Kurd, 82, refugee "Please tell me, why should I recognise Israel?"Why should you recognize Israel? Well it's exsisted for 60 years next door and your people have a symbiotic relationship with it for starters.

By the way Mariam why are you a refugee? You are surrounded by fellow Palestinians in Gaza and yet you are still a "refugee"? I'm afraid to tell you that if you are not goiong to be integrated into the economic and social structure in Gaza you ain't going to be integrated anywhere else anytime soon. :rolleyes:

[webfusion]

You said "investigate", not "ask nicely".

A UN investigation team can ask to be allowed to visit the soldier, it's not an unusual request. They are neutral observers and would not be likely to offer details of the location to Israel, neither would the Red Crystal people if given the opportunity to verify the well-being of Corporal Shalit.

By the way, since the June report, has Dr. Yunis el-Khatib, head of the Palestinian Red Crystal, done anything to pursue the goal of seeing Cpl. Shalit is alive and OK? I have seen no media comments about his intervention.

Mr. Noam Shalit is not neutral, and he certainly could be expected to go back and debrief and reveal as much as he can. He is, after all, an ex-IDF soldier himself.

[Dr Adequate]

You said "investigate", not "ask nicely".

A UN investigation team can ask to be allowed to visit the soldier, it's not an unusual request. They are neutral observers and would not be likely to offer details of the location to Israel... Well, they're pressing for his release. They're hardly "neutral" in the matter of whether he should be a hostage.

"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert spoke this evening (Wednesday), 28.6.06, with UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who telephoned in order to be updated on the situation. The latter said that he had spoken with both Syrian President
Bashar Assad and Palestinian Authority (PA) Chairman Abu Mazen and had urged them to assist as much as possible in releasing IDF Cpl. Gilad Shalit."

"Meanwhile, diplomatic efforts continued in an effort to secure the release of Shalit. Abbas has been participating in the talks, and he was expected to meet Sunday in Gaza with the U.N. envoy to the Middle East, Alvero de Soto. Omar Suleiman, head of the Egyptian Intelligence Services, was to arrive in Gaza as a mediator, Palestinian sources said."

Presumably they would also like evidence of his present wellbeing. Presumably, they can whistle for it.

By the way, since the June report, has Dr. Yunis el-Khatib, head of the Palestinian Red Crystal, done anything to pursue the goal of seeing Cpl. Shalit is alive and OK? I have seen no media comments about his intervention. I wondered that. Unfortunately, because the incorporation of the MDA and PRC into the IRC was so recent, if you try googling on those subjects in combination with "Shalit", this gets you swamped with hits on webpages which deal with the two separate stories.

[a_unique_person]

I should have said as artillery rained down on their heads. My bad. ;)

The article I cited was to illustrate that even now, 60 years after-the-fact some Palestinians still refuse to recognise Israel. How sad is that, stuck in a perpetual delusion that Israel will someday be destroyed and Palestine will be free! Part of the "self image" concept Elind refered to.

The first quote tells the tale:
Why should you recognize Israel? Well it's exsisted for 60 years next door and your people have a symbiotic relationship with it for starters.

By the way Mariam why are you a refugee? You are surrounded by fellow Palestinians in Gaza and yet you are still a "refugee"? I'm afraid to tell you that if you are not goiong to be integrated into the economic and social structure in Gaza you ain't going to be integrated anywhere else anytime soon. :rolleyes:

There are still Armenians **** off with Turkey, Irish **** off with England, ETA still **** off with Spain. This, despite there being 'facts'. Lets not forget, the rush to get 'facts' on the ground with settlements in the West Banks and Gaza. Sharon said you couldn't remove them, there were people who raised their grandchildren there. Now there is more violence. Guess what that is. It's a 'fact'.

[Skeptic]

Al-Arabiya media now reports that IDF has killed senior Fatah/al-Aqsa Brigades man Zakaria Zubeidi.

A few weeks ago, the mayor of the Arab town of Beit Hanun, where most Kassam rockets are launched from, said in a Jerusalem Post interview that Kassams "aren't meant to kill" and are merely an "expression of frustration" by the Palestinians.

(Yes, he really said that.)

Surely, then, the Palestinians should realize that the bullets fired at Mr. Zubeidi have not been meant to kill, but were only an expression of frustration by the israelis.

[Skeptic]

By the way Mariam why are you a refugee?

Because of the UN.

The UN has a special body to deal with Palestinian refugees, UNRWA (sp?), seperate from the UN body that deals with all other refugees.

For the Palestinians--and ONLY the Palestinians--the refugee status is constant. Once a refugee, always a refugee, regardless of whether you resettled anywhere else.

For the Palestinians--and ONLY the Palestinians--the refugee status is hereditary. It is passed on to one's children and grandchildren.

For the Palestinians--and ONLY the Palestinians--the only acceptable solution is the so-called "right of return", i.e., a second holocaust of the jews. NOTHING else--resettlement, compensation, integration of one's children and grandchildren into surrounding society, etc.--is a solution.

By this logic, of course, the vast majority of All Americans are, to this very day, "refugees", since at some point most Americans' ancestors came to the USA because they fleed prosecution.

If the USA were run by UNRWA, the only solution they would acceptable by UNRWA officials would be catch all Americans whose ancestors were refugees, revoke their citizenship, and put them all in concentration camps until their "right of return" to where they came from can be arrange. Under no circumstances should these refugees be allowed to, say, get a job or integrate into society, or they might forget their roots, you see.

In other words, UNRWA, originally seperated from the other UN body dealing with refugees as a political ploy by the Arab members of the UN, was not set up to help Palestinians refugees, but to exploit them for the goal of destroying israel.

According to its own stated goals, there are ONLY two possible states of the world which it would consider remotely acceptable: perpetual refugeeship and suffering to the Palestinians, or a second holocaust of the jews. Nothing in between will do.

To paraphrase Churchill, if israel and UNRWA exist for a thousand years, the Palestinians in UNRWA's "care" in 2948 would STILL be refugees.

Welcome to the wonderful world of UN "humanitarian organizations".

[geni]

Nonsense. One could equally claim we don’t “know” that gnomes and fairies don’t exist because proving this negative is technically impossible. Stating that they do not exist and stating that you will never prove they do exist does not require a faith-based belief system.

Umm yes it does.



A silly claim. Someone who has knowledge of an issue and follows development may certainly know the latest science pertaining to that issue, and certainly what has not been proven.

However they will not know what an be proven.



Whatever. Unless you’re stupid (and you’re not) you know that not everybody uses a definition of “terrorism” that’s that broad. Specifically, ZN doesn’t need to be using your definition, therefore he doesn’t need to condemn every nation in the world.

Yeah but if ZN narrows that definition then ZN will run into the problem of justifying that defintion.

[geni]

The first quote tells the tale:
Why should you recognize Israel? Well it's exsisted for 60 years next door and your people have a symbiotic relationship with it for starters.

60 years? 60 years is nothing.



By the way Mariam why are you a refugee? You are surrounded by fellow Palestinians in Gaza and yet you are still a "refugee"? I'm afraid to tell you that if you are not goiong to be integrated into the economic and social structure in Gaza you ain't going to be integrated anywhere else anytime soon. :rolleyes:

He is 82. There is a fair chance he used to live in what is now Israel. Thus refugee is a reasonable description.

[geni]

For the Palestinians--and ONLY the Palestinians--the refugee status is hereditary. It is passed on to one's children and grandchildren.

I think you will find that the UN is happy enough to view anyone born in a refugee camp as a refugee. Probably because that means there is at least a theoretical hope that one day they will leave.


For the Palestinians--and ONLY the Palestinians--the only acceptable solution is the so-called "right of return",

The general idea of most UN refugee camps is that at some point the people there will be able to go back home.


i.e., a second holocaust of the jews.


Not really.


NOTHING else--resettlement, compensation, integration of one's children and grandchildren into surrounding society, etc.--is a solution.


No one has got round to passing a UN convention to this effect.

[zenith-nadir]

Yeah but if ZN narrows that definition then ZN will run into the problem of justifying that defintion.I don't have to justify definitions you folks are defining for me. ;)

60 years? 60 years is nothing.Name other refugees who are still "registered refugees" 60 years after-the fact. Their subsistence farms and villages in Israel are gone forever, made into cities and highways. So what exactly are they still waiting for...oh ya, how could I forget, they are waiting for Israel's destruction so they can move back - part of the Palestinian self-image concept we were talking about earlier.

He is 82. There is a fair chance he used to live in what is now Israel. Thus refugee is a reasonable description.He's a she. :p

I am not arguing that Mariam Om Ibrahim al-Kurd became a refugee at some point in the past. I am questioning why Mariam Om Ibrahim al-Kurd remains a refugee when she lives - surrounded by Palestinians - in Gaza.

No one has got round to passing a UN convention to this effect.Here some history for you Geni, and a big piece of the "why Palestinians still live in refugee camps" puzzle.

In the 70's Israel started a heavily subsidized "build-your-own-home" program for Palestinian refugees. Simply Google "israeli build-your-own-home program" and you will see I am not lying. Read at your own will and pace. Almost 11,000 Palestinians took Israel up on the deal...that is until the PLO freaked out and started threatening Palestinian refugees who were "collaborating with Israel" and the UN started to pass resolutions demanding that Israel return the Palestinian refugees to the refugee camps:

23 November 1976 (http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7a2601a1c473558a852560de00494cf7!OpenDocument) - A/RES/31/15(A-E)

Having considered the report of the Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, covering the period from 1 July 1975 to 30 June 1976,8/ and the report of the Secretary-General of 4 October 1976,9/

1. Calls once more upon Israel:

(a) To take effective steps immediately for the return of the refugees concerned to the camps from which they were removed in the Gaza Strip and to provide adequate shelters for their accommodation;

(b) To desist from further removal of refugees and destruction of their shelters;


The UN demanded that Israel stop it's a heavily subsidized "build-your-own-home" program for Palestinian refugees and return the refugees concerned to the camps from which they were removed!

Or there is UNGA Resolution 34/52 of November 23, 1979 (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/a06f2943c226015c85256c40005d359c/0c3dd3aff78323e5852560da006da567!OpenDocument) which states:

1. Calls once more upon Israel to desist from removal and resettlement of Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip and from destruction of their shelters;

And this is just another example of the truth behind all the propoganda thrown up by the Arabs, PLO and Palestinian Authority. Israel tried to get Palestinians out of refugee camps and resettle them in brand new Israeli-subsidized homes in Gaza but the PLO and the UN would have nothing to do with that eeeeeeeeeeeeevil "zionist" plan. Why? Because the "refugees" are pawns in an Arab game to eventually destroy Israel.

[geni]

I don't have to justify definitions you folks are defining for me. ;)

Well of course you could have a shot at giving a defintion.


Name other refugees who are still "registered refugees" 60 years after-the fact.

Well there are the inhabitants of the various islands the US loaned from the UK who keep makeing a fuss.


Their subsistence farms and villages in Israel are gone forever, made into cities and highways.

And the western sahara now has a majority morocan population. It means nothing.


He's a she. :p


Isn't there meant to be a hammas goverment around? What kind of islamic radicals allow women to have opinions?


I am not arguing that Mariam Om Ibrahim al-Kurd became a refugee at some point in the past. I am questioning why Mariam Om Ibrahim al-Kurd remains a refugee when she lives - surrounded by Palestinians - in Gaza.

Because that isn't where she used to live. Remeber the Israelis seem to thing they had a right of return after rather a lot of centuries. 60 years is nothing.



As you can see Israel tried to get the Palestinians out of refugee camps and into subsidized "build-your-own-homes" but the PLO and the UN would have nothing to do with that eeeeeeeeeeeeevil "zionist" plan.


Well of course not. This was the cold war. Isreals job was to test of the militry equipement of the two sides.

Realisticaly moveing people arond is a great way of messing up a community. A reasonably smart move by Israel.

[zenith-nadir]

Realisticaly moveing people arond is a great way of messing up a community. A reasonably smart move by Israel.The Israeli subsidized "build-your-own-home" program for Palestinian refugees was not "moveing people arond" - {sic} - or "messing up a community" it was giving human beings stuck in Gazan refugee camps a chance to get out and own their own homes in Gaza.

While you see a nefarious purpose to this plan - one can only guess why - I find the demand by the UN to return refugees to the camps and the atmosphere of intimidation and fear by the PLO to disuade refugees from owning their own homes in Gaza far far more nefarious.

Infact the actions by the PLO - which are documented - shows the many levels of exploitation of the Palestinian refugees by the PLO.

[geni]

The Israeli subsidized "build-your-own-home" program for Palestinian refugees was not "moveing people arond" - {sic} - or "messing up a community" it was giving human beings stuck in Gazan refugee camps a chance to get out and own their own homes in Gaza.

While you see a nefarious purpose to this plan - one can only guess why

I assume that the people setting isreali policy are at least reasonably competant. The destruction of a palisitian sense of community would be an effective way of neutralising what would then have been a mixture of the PLO
other smaller groups.



Infact the actions by the PLO - which are documented - shows the many levels of exploitation of the Palestinian refugees by the PLO.

The PLO were a typical 60s group with typical 60s policies. Left wing and kinda secular. I doubt they are going to have much of an impact in the future.

[zenith-nadir]

I assume that the people setting isreali policy are at least reasonably competant. The destruction of a palisitian sense of community would be an effective way of neutralising what would then have been a mixture of the PLO other smaller groups.I'm afraid you are creating an event that didn't take place. The israeli build-your-own-home program was for Palestinians in Gaza to get out of refugee camps in Gaza into their own homes in Gaza. No one was destroying the "palisitian sense of community" - {sic} - unless one characterizes taking human beings out of refugee camps and giving them free homes in the same place as "destruction".

The PLO were a typical 60s group with typical 60s policies. Left wing and kinda secular. I doubt they are going to have much of an impact in the future.The PLO threatened and intimidated Palestinians not to leave the Gazan refugee camps. Anyone with a moderate IQ can see the reason why, they were denied resettlement opportunties in Gaza so that they could be used as political pawns.

The Jewish refugee problem was resolved the same way other refugee problems were solved. They were absorbed and integrated into the country in which they obtained refuge, but the Arabs refused to absorb and resettle their refugees because the goal was - and still is in some circles - to destroy Israel.

Hamas Covenant:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

The PLO Charter:

Article 2: "Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit."

Article 19: "The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time"

{edited to add}

And even today Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885941573&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) about Israel:

"This is a fake regime ... it won't be able to survive. I think the only way (forward) is that those who created it (the West) take it away themselves,"

Just another example of the denial and delusion that is supported at the highest levels of some governments which prolongs this conflict.

[geni]

I'm afraid you are creating an event that didn't take place. The israeli build-your-own-home program was for Palestinians in Gaza to get out of refugee camps in Gaza into their own homes in Gaza. No one was destroying the "palisitian sense of community" - {sic} - unless one characterizes taking human beings out of refugee camps and giving them free homes in the same place as "destruction".

People move as families rather than as wider social groups. Destory the wider social groups and people become easyer to control. There are various ways of doing this.


The PLO threatened and intimidated Palestinians not to leave the Gazan refugee camps. Anyone with a moderate IQ can see the reason why, they were denied resettlement opportunties in Gaza so that they could be used as political pawns.

Amoung other things.


The Jewish refugee problem was resolved the same way other refugee problems were solved. They were absorbed and integrated into the country in which they obtained refuge,

Not really. Even today london has a jewish area (a rather formal one in fact). There is also the problem that zionism demands a jewish state. Historicaly Jews did not intergrate (not sure if it would have been in any way posible for them to do so though). You can tell. They still exist as an identifiable group.


but the Arabs refused to absorb and resettle their refugees because the goal was - and still is in some circles - to destroy Israel.

Haveing several million palistians turning up on your territory is not the kind of thing you want if you are trying to run a country.



And even today Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885941573&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) about Israel:

He says things like about everyone who isn't Iranian.


Just another example of the denial and delusion that is supported at the highest levels of some governments which prolongs this conflict.

There are situations under which it is conciverble that the west would decide that the continueing existance of isreal was not in it's interst (say some of the more extream relgious parties kept winning the elections). While Israel would probably be able to surive things could become a lot more difficult.

[Mycroft]

Umm yes it does.

No.


However they will not know what an be proven.

One may know things without having them proven to an absolute certainty.


Yeah but if ZN narrows that definition then ZN will run into the problem of justifying that defintion.

Why? There is nothing unusual about his definition. Yours is the one that is outside what is commonly accepted.

[Mycroft]

He is 82. There is a fair chance he used to live in what is now Israel. Thus refugee is a reasonable description.

There is also a fair chance he didn't live in Israel.

There is also a fair chance he immigrated to Palestine to find work, then wasn't allowed to go back home to his family after the Israeli war of independence was over.

[webfusion]

geni:

Haveing several million palistians turning up on your territory is not the kind of thing you want if you are trying to run a country.

That is not an accurate number (1948) ---
Re-check your facts.

Anyway, those few hundred thousand arabs who were displaced mainly fled into Gaza and the West Bank. By any definition of what constitutes 'Palestine' in 1948, theydid not leave Palestine.

In the case of Gaza, it was quite far away from Egypt's center and for all intents and purposes it existed as an autonomous island, with minimal Egyptian mainstream influence. Furthermore, when Egypt was negotiating a Peace Treaty with Israel, Anwar Sadat completely refused to consider the return of Gaza to sovereign Egyptian control.
He rejected the whole kit and kaboodle. "No way, Jose'

Yes, the residents of Gaza were indeed Egyptian citizens (and without too much trouble, they should have readily absorbed the aforementioned thousands, not millions, of refugees).

As for the West Bank, there is little difference between the residents of Hebron or Jenin and the residents of Amman or Irbid. Again, it is vital to recall that no refugees from 1948 left 'Palestine' -- they merely shifted to another part of the same general area, in most cases less than 100 miles. Jordan, the country which you say wouldn't really want 'several millions of palestinians turning up on your territory' did in fact, already, contain several millions of palestinians in Jordan proper (the East Bank) and also in the West Bank which it considered part of its' territory (although nobody else besides the UK recognized that designation from 1950-1967). When the Peace Treaty with Israel was concluded in 1994, then-King Hussein, told all the (ostensibly) Jordanian citizens of the West Bank that they are on their own...same as the gazans -- Hussein said 'No way Jose' and walked away.

Which brings us full-circle.

HAMASTAN is responsible for handling the absorption of their own fellow arabs.
That is the bottom line.

(see: Operation Solomon, Operation Sheba, Operation Flying Carpet, Operation Moses)
In an often heartless world, the Israeli's inspiring example has demonstrated the potential of humanitarian rescue if a free society is genuinely committed to serving as "its brother's keeper."

Those stirring Israeli refugee missions (undertaken without UN assistance), it is worth noting, raised their own concerns and questions among the populace receiving the desperate pilgrims. The impoverished Jews from Yemen and Ethiopia were utter strangers to modernity. Most of them could not read; many of them had never owned a pair of shoes; some had never seen an airplane until the moment of their deliverance.

Return Corproral Shalit. NOW!
No negotiations, no deals.

[geni]

No.

Yes



One may know things without having them proven to an absolute certainty.


No you can't. You know know that the currently availible evidence supports position X but you cannot know that X is true,


Why? There is nothing unusual about his definition. Yours is the one that is outside what is commonly accepted.

Well we don't know ZNs defintion.

[geni]

geni:



That is not an accurate number (1948) ---
Re-check your facts.

Anyway, those few hundred thousand arabs who were displaced mainly fled into Gaza and the West Bank. By any definition of what constitutes 'Palestine' in 1948, theydid not leave Palestine.

I am not dissputeing this.


In the case of Gaza, it was quite far away from Egypt's center and for all intents and purposes it existed as an autonomous island, with minimal Egyptian mainstream influence. Furthermore, when Egypt was negotiating a Peace Treaty with Israel, Anwar Sadat completely refused to consider the return of Gaza to sovereign Egyptian control.
He rejected the whole kit and kaboodle. "No way, Jose'

A lot of lines in the sand in that area make little historical sense (lebanon to start with and there is still the question of why jordan exists).


Yes, the residents of Gaza were indeed Egyptian citizens (and without too much trouble, they should have readily absorbed the aforementioned thousands, not millions, of refugees).

Semi autominious regions are quite high on the list of things dictators or near dictators don't want.


As for the West Bank, there is little difference between the residents of Hebron or Jenin and the residents of Amman or Irbid. Again, it is vital to recall that no refugees from 1948 left 'Palestine' -- they merely shifted to another part of the same general area, in most cases less than 100 miles. Jordan, the country which you say wouldn't really want 'several millions of palestinians turning up on your territory' did in fact, already, contain several millions of palestinians in Jordan proper (the East Bank) and also in the West Bank which it considered part of its' territory (although nobody else besides the UK recognized that designation from 1950-1967). When the Peace Treaty with Israel was concluded in 1994, then-King Hussein, told all the (ostensibly) Jordanian citizens of the West Bank that they are on their own...same as the gazans -- Hussein said 'No way Jose' and walked away.

Because they didn't aparently want to be jordainian (right to self determination you know that thing politicians like to trot out when it is in their favor).


Those stirring Israeli refugee missions (undertaken without UN assistance), it is worth noting, raised their own concerns and questions among the populace receiving the desperate pilgrims. The impoverished Jews from Yemen and Ethiopia were utter strangers to modernity. Most of them could not read; many of them had never owned a pair of shoes; some had never seen an airplane until the moment of their deliverance.

Well yes when you have a state as strongly based on idiology as Isreal it will have some downsides. The rather panicy mass importation of east europeans to balance them out was an interesting move.


Return Corproral Shalit. NOW!
No negotiations, no deals.

So why should anyone want to return him them? You are of course corret about the no negotiations, no deals bit but demards for return that you can inforce (well not striaght away anyway) make you look a bit to simular to those palistians demanding israel go away. Seriously it isn't going to happen.

[Dr Adequate]

By the way Mariam why are you a refugee? You are surrounded by fellow Palestinians in Gaza and yet you are still a "refugee"? I'm not sure you and Skeptic are right here. The woman's name, or rather description, is "Mariam Om Ibrahim al-Kurd".

"Mary (mother of Abraham) --- the Kurd".

She may, in short, be a refugee from Kurdistan. I notice that none of the other people interviewed were described as "refugees".

[webfusion]

So why should anyone want to return him then?

Avi Dichter, who is a high official in the Israeli government, and has excellent contacts with the palestinians, has told whoever is interested that Israel will release the women (about 90 individuals), the minors (less than 400) and an odd assortment of long-timers and those with health problems.

Israel will make a gesture and release them, once Shalit is freed, and not as part of a 'deal' ----
That intention has been passed along to the captors through back channels & front channels, and has been reported in the media as well.

Yet, the captors say "no" --- not good enough, we are not satisfied with promises from the State of Israel to make good on their end of the bargain, and we'll wait until these prisoners are released first, before even thinking about handing over Cpl. Shalit.

Well, that is really odd, because they are essentially being offered what they asked for, but that is not good enough now, because they have a little problem, namely the IAF is blowing away their buddies by the dozens every day that passes. As a matter of fact, IDF tanks just a few hours ago entered Gaza through KARNI crossing, creating a third front of attack, and are now in position to completely empty the northern gaza strip of all human habitation. That looks to be the plan, as far as I can see.

Why do you think it won't happen, geni? What do you know that I don't know?

So, which is it, HAMAS guys? Do you want the prisoners back and the IDF to quickly end Operation Summer Rain, or are you just bluffing and cannot produce the Corporal because he is already dead?

Free Shalit. NOW!

[webfusion]

No you can't. You can know that the currently available evidence supports position X but you cannot know that X is true.

geni, I would hate to be living in your bizarro world, where there is nothing "true" ----

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

As for the palestinians, it more and more becomes apparent that there is not even any plan, but rather a kind of demented nihilism that has become a self-definition!

[webfusion]

Associated Press is now reporting that 65 U.S. citizens have just left the Gaza Strip in a convoy, entering Israel through Erez crossing.

The IDF tanks operating in Beit Lahiya have suddenly withdrawn, to re-group and organize for the next phase of their mission --------- which more and more is looking to be a full-scale push to evacuate all residents of the zone and move them en-masse 10km to the south, creating a no-man's land and pushing the qassem launchers beyond range of their projectiles' capabilities.

In essence, this action will be creating a sub-group of internal palestinian homeless who are about to become "refugees from their refugee camps"

Meanwhile, Pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian demonstrators exchange shouts at Los Angeles rally. (AP report)

What were they shouting about?

[geni]

Avi Dichter, who is a high official in the Israeli government, and has excellent contacts with the palestinians, has told whoever is interested that Israel will release the women (about 90 individuals), the minors (less than 400) and an odd assortment of long-timers and those with health problems.

Israel will make a gesture and release them, once Shalit is freed, and not as part of a 'deal' ----

Sounds like a deal.

Or at least it would if it wasn't for statements such us

"But Interior Minister Roni Bar-On later said on television: "I have just spoken to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and our position remains unchanged: we refuse to negotiate with Hamas and [Palestinian] prisoners will not be released.""

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5160244.stm



Well, that is really odd, because they are essentially being offered what they asked for, but that is not good enough now, because they have a little problem, namely the IAF is blowing away their buddies by the dozens every day that passes.

I haven't seen many body count figures but so far the ones I have seen suggests the Israeli action has been rather more bloodless than that. Helped that the militants have fallen back somewhat rather than fight in the open.


As a matter of fact, IDF tanks just a few hours ago entered Gaza through KARNI crossing, creating a third front of attack, and are now in position to completely empty the northern gaza strip of all human habitation. That looks to be the plan, as far as I can see.


IDF appears to be withdrawing from the north. Hold un-prepared positions doesn't make much militry sense. If you want to de populate notheren gaza you would do it from afar


Why do you think it won't happen, geni? What do you know that I don't know?

Without a deal whoever is holding him will have no reason to release he (throw in the problem that it is quite posible that it is in both sides would be better off whith him dead and it doesn't look to good).


So, which is it, HAMAS guys? Do you want the prisoners back and the IDF to quickly end Operation Summer Rain, or are you just bluffing and cannot produce the Corporal because he is already dead?

Where did Israel offer to end Operation Summer Rain? Why would the IDF want to do that? The politicians might but hopefuly they listen to their millitry comanders.

[geni]

geni, I would hate to be living in your bizarro world, where there is nothing "true" ----

Comeing up with a working model of science that lets you assume we know absolute truths outside maths is somewhat tricky.


As for the palestinians, it more and more becomes apparent that there is not even any plan, but rather a kind of demented nihilism that has become a self-definition!

Oh the militants have quite a collection of plans. War of attrition is the main one. Their mistake is to think of Isreal as a western occupying power.

[webfusion]

Several things are quite absurd about this whole situation:
1. An armed group (the previously unknown 'Islamic Army') kills IDF soldiers in a well-organized tunnelling raid and kidnaps Shalit, while Hamas denies that they did it. However, Hamas wishes to negotiate now, even though the kidnappers have explicitly said that the "case is closed" (after their 6am July 4th deadline passed) --- Why are they negotiating if they did not do it?

2. Haniya called Israel`s actions "blackmail". Hello? Whose side did the kidnapping here? Who is making the extortion demands in exchange for his return? Who is refusing to unconditionally end this crisis?

3. Israel is to be blamed for refusing to respond to Hamas' "legitimate demand for the release of prisoners in exchange for Shalit's release," say the palestinians. Granted, Olmert may be responsible for stalled talks BUT there should be NO talks. We don't talk with people who are not in charge and we don't negotiate with terrorists. To do so will cause 1000 more kidnappings.

4. "Israel will be responsible for what happens to Shalit." How about the kidnappers and killers, do they bear responsibility? Aahh, there is no more logic to the Palestinian side. Those people have abandoned it long ago. A different method is needed.

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

[geni goes along:
I haven't seen many body count figures but so far the ones I have seen suggests the Israeli action has been rather more bloodless than that.

Dozens. Over three dozens already. Not including another four or five killed in precision IAF targeting overnight (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/735911.html). I don't know what lame sources you are looking at, but I suggest you review more reliable ones...

throw in the problem that it is quite possible both sides have vested interests that he would be better off dead and it doesn't look too good... (edited for clarity; I've revised geni's spelling and grammar and syntax mistakes so this sentence reads properly in English - web)

BOTH sides? In fact, neither side has indicated they prefer him dead!
The Islamic militants and Hamas are saying that Islamic law guides their actions to keep him safe and alive. Hamas declared that Shalit is being held in humane conditions, "as commanded by the Muslim religion."
The Israelis certainly want him back, alive. His father, Noam Shalit, wants him back home. Who on the Israeli side has indicated anything that supports the possibility you're now claiming, geni?


Where did Israel offer to end Operation Summer Rain? Why would the IDF want to do that? The politicians might but hopefuly they listen to their military commanders.

First of all, in Israel, the military echelon is subservient to the political sphere, not the other way around.
Secondly, the only reason Operation Summer Rain began is because rockets are bombarding Israeli towns, farms and villages; and a specific attack through a tunnel into Israeli territory resulted in the kidnapping of Corporal Gilead Shalit. Once the freedom of the soldier is secured, and once Hamas agrees to re-institute the tadiyeh ('calm') then the Operation will disintegrate and IDF troops will immediately return to their side of the border. Nowhere have I seen any scintilla of evidence to indicate otherwise. Have you?
Thirdly, the Israelis consistently offer to end the military actions, in almost every statement and every opportunity they have. The IDF is on a limited mission, and there is nothing about Summer Rain which would lead a reasonable person to conclude that upon the release of Cpl. Shalit and the declaration by Hamas of a renewed period of 'tadiyeh' that the IDF will not leave. Let us not forget, the Israelis gave the Hamas several days to avoid the action in the beginning, by releasing Shalit immediately, and thereby no IDF raids into gaza would even have happened!

[Elind]

ZN, or anyone else, I have a question for you. It relates to this topic indirectly, but it is just something that always raises a ?? in my mind.

Whenever I read Debka's news and see an item on Qassams landing somewhere, invariably if there were people nearby, even if not injured, there are always "X" people treated for "shock".

Now I don't trivialize having explosions suddenly go off nearby and I haven't been in that situation. Nevertheless it is certainly far from a totally unexpected event, after all that has gone on, and I keep thinking that the first reaction would be one of relief and thanks that one is OK; not "shock" requiring treatment, whatever that means.

Is this a linguistic thing or what? I never read of Palestinians being treated for "shock", just injuries.

[geni]

[b]
Dozens. Over three dozens already. Not including another four or five killed in precision IAF targeting overnight (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/735911.html). I don't know what lame sources you are looking at, but I suggest you review more reliable ones...


Three dozens is not dozens per day.


BOTH sides? In fact, neither side has indicated they prefer him dead!
The Islamic militants and Hamas are saying that Islamic law guides their actions to keep him safe and alive. Hamas declared that Shalit is being held in humane conditions, "as commanded by the Muslim religion."
The Israelis certainly want him back, alive. His father, Noam Shalit, wants him back home. Who on the Israeli side has indicated anything that supports the possibility you're now claiming, geni?

Logicaly it is quite posible for both sides to want him dead. Israel could use him as a cause and the plastian militants could use him as a show of strength.


First of all, in Israel, the military echelon is subservient to the political sphere, not the other way around.

Sure but but the politicians in Israel should be smart enough to know that they cannort afford to play generals


Secondly, the only reason Operation Summer Rain began is because rockets are bombarding Israeli towns, farms and villages; and a specific attack through a tunnel into Israeli territory resulted in the kidnapping of Corporal Gilead Shalit. Once the freedom of the soldier is secured, and once Hamas agrees to re-institute the tadiyeh ('calm') then the Operation will disintegrate and IDF troops will immediately return to their side of the border. Nowhere have I seen any scintilla of evidence to indicate otherwise. Have you?


I seem to recall hammas launching rockets for quite a while. There is no logical reason for Israel to belive anything hammas says.


Thirdly, the Israelis consistently offer to end the military actions, in almost every statement and every opportunity they have. The IDF is on a limited mission, and there is nothing about Summer Rain which would lead a reasonable person to conclude that upon the release of Cpl. Shalit and the declaration by Hamas of a renewed period of 'tadiyeh' that the IDF will not leave. Let us not forget, the Israelis gave the Hamas several days to avoid the action in the beginning, by releasing Shalit immediately, and thereby no IDF raids into gaza would even have happened!

Yes Isreal have been handleing the politics rather well.

[webfusion]

Three dozens is not dozens per day.

IDF: 70 militants have been killed since Gaza operation began (Israel Radio)

Logically it is quite posible for both sides to want him dead. Israel could use him as a cause and the plastian militants could use him as a show of strength.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Israel doesn't need a 'cause' ---- we have plenty of other things going on which require our attention and the terrorists are not sitting idly by either.

The 'plastians' know perfectly well that if they release him right now, they'll get the prisoners they demanded. That is a great achievement, one that they can point to, and be very proud of even if Israel doesn't negotiate it directly. What will they get if he is already dead? Nothing.


Sure but but the politicians in Israel should be smart enough to know that they cannot afford to play generals.

You're kidding, right? Israeli politics by its nature is often formed of ex-IDF officers. (see: Arik Sharon, Ehud Barak, Bibi Netanyahu) ---- Ehud Olmert is not Arik Sharon, but he certainly has those shoes to fill, and Amir Peretz is perfectly satisfied with his role as armchair general.


I seem to recall hammas launching rockets for quite a while. There is no logical reason for Israel to believe anything hammas says.

Islamic Jihad was launching them for the past months, not HAMAS. Only after the tragedy of June 9th on the beach did HAMAS operatives join the rocketry- brigades. Even then, the HAMAS leadership in the territories was seeking a way to stop those other guys launching qassems out there in the fields, because Israel was refraining from return-fire artillery completely and it looked like 'tadiyeh' might be maintained again. But then the HAMAS leadership in Damascus ordered the tunnel action against the IDF tank position and Corporal Shalit was taken as a hostage, and only now, after several weeks of IDF precision activity, are the HAMAS asking again for calm/cease fire.

There are plenty of logical reasons for Israel to give the benefit of the doubt to Haniyeh and Co. right now. However, a little inconvenience stands in the way ---> the hostage Corporal Shalit.

Today, in a major public statement to the press ---
Haniyeh's office in Gaza said: "In order to get out of the current crisis, it is necessary that all parties restore calm on the basis of mutually stopping all military operations."

and here's the reply from the Prime Minister's Office ---
"We want the soldier, and a cessation of Qassam rocket fire, in exchange for a ceasefire," a high-ranking source said, adding that in the event Shalit will be released and the rocket fire would stop, "IDF troops would withdraw from the Gaza Strip."

[[[[ Which is clear evidence in answer to your question back in post #131 of this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1754015&postcount=131) ---- "Where did Israel offer to end Operation Summer Rain? Why would the IDF want to do that?" ]]]]

and then this ---
Yes, Israel has been handling the politics rather well.

Not well enough.
Gilead Shalit has not been released yet.

[geni]

IDF: 70 militants have been killed since Gaza operation began (Israel Radio)

You could probably get that many by bombing the average funeral.


Sorry, I don't buy it. Israel doesn't need a 'cause' ---- we have plenty of other things going on which require our attention and the terrorists are not sitting idly by either.

Causes are useful. People get nervious if you randomly invade people (they get even more nervious if you systematical invade people but that isn't the point).


The 'plastians' know perfectly well that if they release him right now, they'll get the prisoners they demanded. That is a great achievement, one that they can point to, and be very proud of even if Israel doesn't negotiate it directly.


They don't know that:

"But Interior Minister Roni Bar-On later said on television: "I have just spoken to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and our position remains unchanged: we refuse to negotiate with Hamas and [Palestinian] prisoners will not be released."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5160244.stm


What will they get if he is already dead? Nothing.


"Hey guys we killed an israeli" is I belive a popualr (if rather suicidal) bost in the area.



You're kidding, right? Israeli politics by its nature is often formed of ex-IDF officers. (see: Arik Sharon, Ehud Barak, Bibi Netanyahu) ---- Ehud Olmert is not Arik Sharon, but he certainly has those shoes to fill, and Amir Peretz is perfectly satisfied with his role as armchair general.


Sure natinal conscription does that. Every country has politicians who want to play armchair generals. The problems start when you let them.


Islamic Jihad was launching them for the past months, not HAMAS. Only after the tragedy of June 9th on the beach did HAMAS operatives join the rocketry- brigades. Even then, the HAMAS leadership in the territories was seeking a way to stop those other guys launching qassems out there in the fields, because Israel was refraining from return-fire artillery completely and it looked like 'tadiyeh' might be maintained again. But then the HAMAS leadership in Damascus ordered the tunnel action against the IDF tank position and Corporal Shalit was taken as a hostage, and only now, after several weeks of IDF precision activity, are the HAMAS asking again for calm/cease fire.

There are plenty of logical reasons for Israel to give the benefit of the doubt to Haniyeh and Co. right now. However, a little inconvenience stands in the way ---> the hostage Corporal Shalit.


You are still baseing this on the idea of trusting hammas


Not well enough.
Gilead Shalit has not been released yet.

Is that a problem? Seriously a few days ago the go was not exactly significant. Today he's front page news. His only significance is as front page news. A negotiated setlement might help your international cred a bit but it would remove a useful excuse for neutraliseing the various out of control groups throwing rockets at Israel.

[webfusion]

I had said: "Gilead Shalit has not been released yet."

geni replied:
Is that a problem?

I say:
Yes. It is.

[Skeptic]

I assume that the people setting isreali policy are at least reasonably competant. The destruction of a palisitian sense of community would be an effective way of neutralising what would then have been a mixture of the PLO
other smaller groups.

Many others made similar replies, but just two points here:

1). If letting Palestinians built a better home a few miles away in another Palestinian city is a plot for "destroying the Palestinian sense of community", I suppose that U-Haul and other moving companies are part of a nefarious communist plot to destroy America through "weakening its sense of community", as every day the rent cars and trucks to Americans who move to other American cities miles away.

I suggest that, like the PLO, real Americans should simply shoot anybody who dares to move, as a traitor who is weakening the community.

2). As geni no doubt is unaware, the "build your own home" program--"b'ne bey'tcha" in Hebrew--was immensely popular at the time (and to a degree still is) in israel itself. Its goal, like in the case of the plan offered to the Palestinians, was to allow people funding to move out of small apartments in crowded neighborhoods into homes in smaller towns and suburbs.

Obviously, the israelies are so evil, they will deliberately, and for years, destroy their own "sense of community", all in order to finally used that as a cover for forcing a similar plan on the poor, opressed Palestinians. Thank God the PLO saw through that plot...

[zenith-nadir]

If letting Palestinians built a better home a few miles away in another Palestinian city is a plot for "destroying the Palestinian sense of community", I suppose that U-Haul and other moving companies are part of a nefarious communist plot to destroy America through "weakening its sense of community", as every day the rent cars and trucks to Americans who move to other American cities miles away.You'll soon learn Sceptic that the "build your own home" program to get Palestinians out of the refugee camps was nothing more than a zionist plot to destroy the Palestinian society and subjugate Gaza.

By the way, in other turnspeak: Hamas has defeated the Israeli army!!!

Jul. 8, 2006 18:13 (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885947382&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Hamas: We 'have defeated the Israeli army'

Hamas's military wing, Izzadin al-Kassam announced in a press conference in Beit Lahiya Saturday evening that its fighters "have defeated the Israeli army."

press conference picture here (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlimage&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobkey=id&blobtable=JPImage&blobwhere=1150885947375&cachecontrol=never&ssbinary=true)

Yup. You heard it here first kids...Hamas has defeated the Israeli army! They said so in a press conference in Beit Lahiya Saturday evening so it must be true.

Meanwhile back on earth...

09/July/06 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060709/wl_mideast_afp/mideast_060709081824)

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Israel pounded Gaza with fresh air raids and artillery Sunday, ploughing ahead with a massive military assault two weeks after the capture of a soldier sparked the worst Middle East crisis in months.

Tanks advanced one kilometre (half a mile) to the eastern outskirts of Gaza City where deadly clashes broke out Saturday, taking up position on open farmland and in industrial areas searching for explosives and militant tunnels.

That is nothing more than zionist-controlled media lies because as we already know Hamas has defeated the Israeli army!

[Dcdrac]

ZN's latest psot strenghtens my ivew that a multinational, unbiased forve should take control of the West Bank and Gaza.

[zenith-nadir]

ZN's latest psot strenghtens my ivew that a multinational, unbiased forve should take control of the West Bank and Gaza.The decision by Gaza militants to continue firing rockets into Israel even after the Israeli pullout last year is the true nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The decision by Gaza militants to tunnel under the 1967 border - you know, the border they moan about endlessly - to kill and capture hostages, is the true nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The claim by Hamas's military wing at a press conference in Beit Lahiya Saturday evening that its fighters "have defeated the Israeli army", is the true nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Rather than beginning to build their own nation after Israel took everything and everyone out of Gaza last year - exactly what the Palestinians wanted - the Palestinians proved beyond all doubt that a similar withdrawal from the West Bank is not possible at this time.

Additionally Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' total and utter failure stop any militant attacks or win the release of Cpl. Gilad Shalit verifies his lack of power. Even PA Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh is an observer rather than a commander whose men, Hamas's military wing, are dictating foreign policy.

In the end, Palestinian foreign policy is dictated by Palestinian terrorists and not by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas or PA Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh.

[Dcdrac]

Israel withdraws the itnernational Force moves in, stops the fighting, the force has a mandate to fire on anyone who breaches the peace.

[Skeptic]

You'll soon learn Sceptic that the "build your own home" program to get Palestinians out of the refugee camps was nothing more than a zionist plot to destroy the Palestinian society and subjugate Gaza.

...and from people who have never heard of the "build your own home" program until 30 seconds before they post to explain to me what it "really means".

I wonder if they know some of my relatives lived in houses built by the "build your own home" project. I suppose they can now all sue the israeli government for destroying their community, now that the real intent of the nefarious plan had finally come into the open on the JREF forum.

Oh, P.S.

It's interesting to see how the israeli government's "nefarious plans of agression" consist of helping Palestinians build new homes, while the PLO's "brave resistance in the name of the Palestinian people" consists of killing any Palestinian that dares move out of the refugee camps.

And yet people think that calling someone a "terrorist" is a matter of opinion, not of actual fact. I'd say anybody who threathens you with death for daring not to continue to live in a refugee camp is a terrorist, wouldn't you?

Makes it rather obvious what the PLO's real goal is, namely, the destruction of israel, which would have been news if if they they haven't helpfully put it numerous times in their own constitution, to say nothing of numerous speeches and actions proving the same thing.

[zenith-nadir]

Israel withdraws the itnernational Force moves in, stops the fighting, the force has a mandate to fire on anyone who breaches the peace.That will never happen. Why? Allow me to illustrate why by using the actions of the United Nations.

UN blames Israel for Gaza humanitarian crisis (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3272830,00.html)

The United Nations blamed Israel for a burgeoning humanitarian crisis, including deaths, injuries and harm to children, from its offensive in Gaza in a strong statement released Saturday.Always remember Dcdrac "Israel is responsible", (repeat 1000 times), that's very important.

UN blames Israel for Gaza humanitarian crisis (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3272830,00.html) - (continued)

The UN document does not mention the incident that set off the Israeli operation - a June 25 attack by Palestinian terrorist who tunneled under the border into Israel and attacked an army post, killing two soldiers and capturing a third.(emphasis mine)

Why should blaming Israel for a "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza - "Israel is responsible", repeat 1000 times - be clouded by trivial facts - such as a June 25 attack by Palestinian terrorists belonging to the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority?

I'll tell you why.

The folks using the United Nations to blame Israel for the latest crisis know full well if they mention the June 25 Palestinian attack on Israel or the daily Palestinian Qassam rocket attacks that have plagued Israel since it pulled out of Gaza then Israel doesn't look as evil and oppressive anymore...one could almost say Israel was defending itself.... :eek: ...and we certainly can't have that now can we. :nope:

Here is everything you need to know about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict all rolled up into a nice brief synopsis. I call it the..

The Middle East Cycle:

1) Israel responds to Palestinian terrorism...sorry, my bad..."resistance".

2) The UN and other nations step in to lambaste Israel for "_______________________". (fill in the blank)

3) The Palestinian Authority continues to allow known and internationally-recognized terror organizations to use Gaza and the West Bank for bases of operation in attacks against Israel.

Repeat the above cycle endlessly for decades... until one of those internationally-recognized terror organizations is elected into power - Hamas - and then stare at your feet for a brief moment and return to step #1. ;)

...and from people who have never heard of the "build your own home" program until 30 seconds before they post to explain to me what it "really means".The 70s israeli-sponsored "build your own home program" for Palestinians in Gaza was nothing more than another example of Israeli oppressive practices against the Palestinian people..... :rolleyes:

Israel: "You don't need to be in a 30-year-old refugee camp, here is a plot of land in Gaza, feel free to build a home there, we'll pay for it."

PLO: "If you move out of the refugee camps and take an Israeli-bought house we will kill you as a collaborator"

Geni: "The destruction of a palisitian sense of community would be an effective way of neutralising what would then have been a mixture of the PLO other smaller groups."

[geni]

Many others made similar replies, but just two points here:

1). If letting Palestinians built a better home a few miles away in another Palestinian city is a plot for "destroying the Palestinian sense of community", I suppose that U-Haul and other moving companies are part of a nefarious communist plot to destroy America through "weakening its sense of community", as every day the rent cars and trucks to Americans who move to other American cities miles away.

The evidence suggests it has been pretty effective.


I suggest that, like the PLO, real Americans should simply shoot anybody who dares to move, as a traitor who is weakening the community.


Nah the us has a fairly solid goverment. You don't really need a community (or as thatcher would have said there is no such thing as society)


2). As geni no doubt is unaware, the "build your own home" program--"b'ne bey'tcha" in Hebrew--was immensely popular at the time (and to a degree still is) in israel itself. Its goal, like in the case of the plan offered to the Palestinians, was to allow people funding to move out of small apartments in crowded neighborhoods into homes in smaller towns and suburbs.

Again solid central goverment. The community doesn't really matter so much.


Obviously, the israelies are so evil

Evil? The palistian community at the time was ah "less than ideal". I fail to see anything wrong with attempting to reformat it.

[geni]

I say:
Yes. It is.

Why? the CIA world fact book thinks israel has another 2.9 million where he came from. Israel has already lost one soldier in the operation so even if Israel does get the guy back it can't do better than break even.

[David Swidler]

Why? the CIA world fact book thinks israel has another 2.9 million where he came from. Israel has already lost one soldier in the operation so even if Israel does get the guy back it can't do better than break even.

It's a cultural thing. And a political one. The pressure to return Cpl. Shalit stems not from military necessity, but from the Israeli ethos of not leaving a soldier in enemy hands.

[Mycroft]

Yes

‘Fraid not.


No you can't. You know know that the currently availible evidence supports position X but you cannot know that X is true,

A quick glance at any dictionary will reveal definitions of the word “know” that do not depend on absolute, irrefutable scientific proof without possibility on contradictory evidence in the future. We all “know” a great many things without having seen evidence beyond all doubt, and yet are still based on evidence, experience, and learning and not faith.

know (nō)

v., knew (nū, nyū), known (nōn), know•ing, knows.
v.tr.
1. To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.
2. To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won't fail.
3. To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: knows how to cook.
4. To have fixed in the mind: knows her Latin verbs.
5. To have experience of: “a black stubble that had known no razor” (William Faulkner).
6.
a. To perceive as familiar; recognize: I know that face.
b. To be acquainted with: He doesn't know his neighbors.
7. To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct: knows right from wrong.
8. To discern the character or nature of: knew him for a liar.
9. Archaic. To have sexual intercourse with.
v.intr.
1. To possess knowledge, understanding, or information.
2. To be cognizant or aware.

Well we don't know ZNs defintion.

Irrelevant. There is nothing unusual about his usage, you are the one who applies the word in a way that is not universally accepted.

[Skeptic]

Why? the CIA world fact book thinks israel has another 2.9 million where he came from.

Well, I suppose Ted Bundy didn't do anything too bad, then. Sure, he killed, er, five or six American women, but according to the CIA fact book, there are about 145,000,000 more where they came from.

And all this fuss about children being abducted, raped, and murdered. So what if someone abducts an 8-year-old, rapes, and kills her? According to the US census beauro, there are about 4,000,000 more 8-year-olds where she came from.

Big deal!

[Skeptic]

Again solid central goverment. The community doesn't really matter so much.

israel has a "solid central government"? You don't know a DAMN THING about israeli politics and government, now do you?

But even if israel did have a "solid central government" that limited to some extent the nefarious community-destroying powers of the "build you own home" scheme... why would israel deliberately damage its own communities extensively, for years, with the same scheme it wants to use as a weapon to "destroy the Palestinian communites"? Why take chances? Why not simply offer the scheme to the Palestinians without first offering it to everybody and his brother in israel?

That makes as much sense as saying that israel, planning to poison the Palestinian water supply, starts by first deliberately poisoning its own water supply--for years on end--merely because they think they have better poison control centers than the Palestinians.

Sounds like a logical plan to me...


P.S.

I'm quite impressed on how you weren't even slightly embarrased when you belatedly realize that the same "build your own house" scheme offered to the Palestinians was actually offered to (and enthusiastically taken up by) the israelies themselves for years.

You are not going to let a tiny, inconsequential fact like that stop you from knowing the awful truth about how the "build your own house" scheme is too some sort of community-destruction weapon.

[geni]

‘
A quick glance at any dictionary will reveal definitions of the word “know” that do not depend on absolute, irrefutable scientific proof without possibility on contradictory evidence in the future. We all “know” a great many things without having seen evidence beyond all doubt, and yet are still based on evidence, experience, and learning and not faith.

Try defending that position in R&P.



Irrelevant. There is nothing unusual about his usage, you are the one who applies the word in a way that is not universally accepted.

No defintion is universally accepted.

[geni]

Well, I suppose Ted Bundy didn't do anything too bad, then.

Not by historical standards no.


Sure, he killed, er, five or six American women, but according to the CIA fact book, there are about 145,000,000 more where they came from.

And all this fuss about children being abducted, raped, and murdered. So what if someone abducts an 8-year-old, rapes, and kills her? According to the US census beauro, there are about 4,000,000 more 8-year-olds where she came from.

Big deal!

I was talking about a militry context. Civilian based crime is generaly treated differently.

As an attempt to free Gilad Shalit Operation Summer Rains makes little sense. At an attempt to remove militants from areas you don't want them it makes a lot more sense

If freeing Gilad Shalit was the only aim then negotating while trying to find his location to launch a comando raid would probably have been the most logical course.

[geni]

israel has a "solid central government"? You don't know a DAMN THING about israeli politics and government, now do you?

By world standards Isreali has a solid centeral goverment. No force on earth could remove it quickly. It doesn't collapse that often (compared to say Italy) and it isn't based around a police state. Yes fairly solid.


But even if israel did have a "solid central government" that limited to some extent the nefarious community-destroying powers of the "build you own home" scheme... why would israel deliberately damage its own communities extensively, for years, with the same scheme it wants to use as a weapon to "destroy the Palestinian communites"? Why take chances? Why not simply offer the scheme to the Palestinians without first offering it to everybody and his brother in israel?

Building on previously unbuilt on bits of the area stakes your claim. Simular to the settlements but less problamitic.



You are not going to let a tiny, inconsequential fact like that stop you from knowing the awful truth about how the "build your own house" scheme is too some sort of community-destruction weapon.

Awful truth? Which bit of the Palistian community at that time do you consider worth preserving?

[Skeptic]

Geni, you want the israelis to both negotiate with Hamas over Shalit--which, as you well know, means giving Hamas everything they want, if it happens--and claim that more agressive action makes "little sense". But, also, you are surprised that they're making such a big fuss deal over one lousy soldier when there are 2.9 million more where he came from.

Well, then, if israel shouldn't be making a big deal over Shalit, why negotiate for his release at all? Why give the Hamas anything for a worthless corporal, when there's nearly three million of the same where he came from? You're just not thinking your anti-israeli stuff through, you know, that's why you keep getting yourself tied up in logical contradictions.

[geni]

Geni, you want the israelis to both negotiate with Hamas over Shalit--which, as you well know, means giving Hamas everything they want, if it happens--and claim that more agressive action makes "little sense". But, also, you are surprised that they're making such a big fuss deal over one lousy soldier when there are 2.9 million more where he came from.

Well, then, if israel shouldn't be making a big deal over Shalit, why negotiate for his release at all?

To buy time. I didn't say the negotiations had to get anywhere.


Why give the Hamas anything for a worthless corporal, when there's nearly three million of the same where he came from?

You don't but intelligance takes time to gather. The guy does have a fair bit of value in PR terms. A sucessful comando raid would look very good.


You're just not thinking your anti-israeli stuff through, you know, that's why you keep getting yourself tied up in logical contradictions.

Not you keep makeing assumtions and strawmen

[Mycroft]

Try defending that position in R&P.

I don't know what R&P is, but I'll defend it anywhere.


No defintion is universally accepted.

Then it makes even less sense for you to claim ZN would have to justify a definition that doesn't include all state violence.

[webfusion]

The reference is to "Religion & Politics" on the JREF forums...

geni is again offering his world-view that apparently there is no 'truth', and no definitions are 'universally accepted' and nothing can be 'known'

and then he throws out this statement:
I didn't say the negotiations had to get anywhere.


??? WTF ???


and geni is now telling skeptic "Not (if) you keep makeing assumptions and strawmen"
while we can plainly see that there are no assumptions and no straw.

and finally:
If freeing Gilad Shalit was the only aim...

Who said it was the exclusive aim?
However, if Corporal Shalit is freed immediately, unconditionally, then the Summer Rain will stop.
That is not too complicated a cause-and-effect relationship, is it?

[Skeptic]

Look, WF and ZN, it's simple. geni's terrified of the possiblity that the evil israelis, under the guise of operations whose official goal is to free the kidnapped soldier, might also try to act againt the poor, innocent Hamas members which only fired thousands of rockets into israel, and had nothing to do with the kidnapping per se.

You can't fool him! israel says it's an operation to free Shalit, but it's really an operation to "not have militants where you don't want them" (e.g., firing rockets at israel). This is the sort of israeli perfidity and dishonesty which geni is out to expose to the world.

"Negotiations" and "commando operations", the means approved by geni, both have the distinct advantage, from this point of view, of leaving the poor, innocent rocket-launchers alone.

[geni]

However, if Corporal Shalit is freed immediately, unconditionally, then the Summer Rain will stop.

Yes but why would Israel want that (ok less of a problem now that the mission appears to have in a large part been completed)?

[geni]

Look, WF and ZN, it's simple. geni's terrified of the possiblity that the evil israelis, under the guise of operations whose official goal is to free the kidnapped soldier, might also try to act againt the poor, innocent Hamas members which only fired thousands of rockets into israel, and had nothing to do with the kidnapping per se.

I have no objection to hammas militants being blown up (well no objection under current conditions). I do find it ammusing that people belive Israels Casus belli.


You can't fool him! israel says it's an operation to free Shalit, but it's really an operation to "not have militants where you don't want them" (e.g., firing rockets at israel).


Are you seriously trying to disspute this?


This is the sort of israeli perfidity and dishonesty which geni is out to expose to the world.

I belive it would more normaly be termed international deplomacy and basic PR.



"Negotiations" and "commando operations", the means approved by geni, both have the distinct advantage, from this point of view, of leaving the poor, innocent rocket-launchers alone.

Sucessful negotiations would be risky. On one hand it might give Israel something to build on long term on the other it encourages further actions of this type.

You seem to be despirate to view Israel an entity flowing with moral righteousness. I prefer to view it as a nation state.

[Mycroft]

I have no objection to hammas militants being blown up (well no objection under current conditions). I do find it ammusing that people belive Israels Casus belli.

How is that amusing?


Are you seriously trying to disspute this?

Dispute what? That '...it's really an operation to "not have militants where you don't want them"'? Why would anyone dispute that? The dispute is that anyone should find fault with that reason.


I belive it would more normaly be termed international deplomacy and basic PR.

This doesn't make sense.


Sucessful negotiations would be risky. On one hand it might give Israel something to build on long term on the other it encourages further actions of this type.

Since we've seen the results of negotiations, there seems to be only a down-side with no potential up-side.


You seem to be despirate to view Israel an entity flowing with moral righteousness. I prefer to view it as a nation state.

Which, like any entity, may behave morally or immorally. Merely the fact of it being a nation-state doesn’t exclude it from such judgments, bad or good.

[geni]

How is that amusing?

I have a very dark sense of humor.


Dispute what? That '...it's really an operation to "not have militants where you don't want them"'? Why would anyone dispute that? The dispute is that anyone should find fault with that reason.

But that isn't the given reason


This doesn't make sense.


Yes it does.


Since we've seen the results of negotiations, there seems to be only a down-side with no potential up-side.


In theory sucessful negotiations could be used to lead to other sucessful negotiations. Very risky though.


Which, like any entity, may behave morally or immorally. Merely the fact of it being a nation-state doesn’t exclude it from such judgments, bad or good.

Since the idea of the nation state is based on moraly questionable principles.

[webfusion]

geni asks: "Yes but why would Israel want that (Corporal Shalit freed and an end to the operations in gaza) ?

You are combining apples and oranges and getting fruit salad, geni.

Israel will not continue to maintain a huge expeditionary force in gaza, and would really have no reason to remain there, if the HAMAS-supported group holding Shalit suddenly said -- 'OK, enough, here ya go, here he is...sorry about that' and in fact, the Israelis have indicated that releases of the jailed women and youngsters and even 30-40 of the senior detainees would happen anyway, as a gesture, but not as an openly-organized trade or quid-pro-quo for Shalit.

That's what Israel wants.

Now, so long as the HAMAS dumbasses hold onto Shalit, they'll continue to find their own men and the men of their terrorist buddy-organizations as targets of IAF raids on their homes, on their cars and on their offices. It's really a simple equation:
Free him -- we stop. Keep him, you'll face liquidation with extreme prejudice

Seven Palestinians were killed and another 18 were wounded in the Gaza Strip over the course of Monday as the Israel Defense Forces continued its offensive to press for the release of abducted soldier Gilad Shalit.

You are right about one thing, geni, it wasn't a dozen today. But, not for lack of trying.

[Mycroft]

I have a very dark sense of humor.

You misunderstand the question. Why shouldn’t one believe Israel’s “Casus Belli” as you put it?


But that isn't the given reason

It doesn’t need to be. It’s assumed that whenever military forces are mobilized, one of the things they will do is, as much as is possible, secure themselves and their charges from attack.


Yes it does.

It was your phrasing I said made no sense. Could you rephrase for clarity?


In theory sucessful negotiations could be used to lead to other sucessful negotiations. Very risky though.

We have decades of examples of that not working, reason enough to believe the odds of it working now are near nonexistent.


Since the idea of the nation state is based on moraly questionable principles.

Which has nothing to do with if any specific actions of that nation are moral or not.

[webfusion]

For context of the problem that geni is having --- let's roll the videotape!

Skeptic, in his post #159 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1757037&postcount=159)
uses some sarcasm and makes the comment that geni later quotes and replies to:
Look, WF and ZN, it's simple. geni's terrified of the possiblity that the evil Israelis, under the guise of operations whose official goal is to free the kidnapped soldier, might also try to act againt the poor, innocent Hamas members which only fired thousands of rockets into Israel, and who had nothing to do with the kidnapping per se.

You can't fool him! Israel says it's an operation to free Shalit, but it's really an operation to "not have militants where you don't want them" (e.g., firing rockets at Israel).
This is the sort of Israeli perfidity and dishonesty which geni is out to expose to the world.

and then here is geni's reply --- (which mycroft quickly notes "doesn't make sense")
I believe it would more normally be termed international diplomacy and basic PR.

The word "it" in this context, refers to the Israeli claim of wanting Shalit freed, which geni over several posts, in several different ways, has said is NOT the true aim of the Summer Rain combat operations.
Geni's comment (that 'doesn't make sense' in Mycrofts and my view) dismisses a true story of Israel moving into gaza, in force, and wreaking a fairly high level of havoc (although not as much as the IDF is capable of, certainly) to place a severe amount of pressure on HAMAS, in order to convince them of the Israeli requirement to release Shalit, without any quid-pro-quo.
Now, amid all that, somehow, geni has gotten into his head that the IDF desire to free Cpl Shalit, along with all efforts to pressure HAMAS to do so, and the entire Summer Rain mission, is all based on an excuse that Israel has cooked up, and that Israel is now using that excuse of Corporal Shalit (which the Israelis themselves invented, according to geni's logic) as a way to shield themselves from criticism ----
As geni puts it (or clumsily tried to put it), Israel is standing behind the unconditional release of Shalit as a ploy to place a mantle of "international diplomacy and PR" on their mission which, according to geni's logic again, is a mission whose aims are not really about obtaining the release of Shalit, but are actually about something else.

Now that I have been able to shed some light, carry on...


=============================
(eta) this is the fractured logic of PM Haniyeh, whose Op-Ed piece appears in the Washington Post today, saying that Israel really is not interested in freeing Shalit, but rather is only using that as an excuse to topple his duly-elected regime and bring more pain and suffering to the palestinians. So, geni is in good company with his claim and his logical disconnect...he stands squarely alongside the HAMAS leader in making hay out of a situation that could be easily resolved in two hours, if PM Haniyeh issued orders to release Shalit, NOW!

[Mycroft]

Now, amid all that, somehow, geni has gotten into his head that the IDF desire to free Cpl Shalit, along with all efforts to pressure HAMAS to do so, and the entire Summer Rain mission, is all based on an excuse that Israel has cooked up, and that Israel is now using that excuse of Corporal Shalit (which the Israelis themselves invented, according to geni's logic) as a way to shield themselves from criticism ----

I wonder if we will see independent confirmation from Geni that this does reflect his views.

[geni]

geni asks: "Yes but why would Israel want that (Corporal Shalit freed and an end to the operations in gaza) ?

You are combining apples and oranges and getting fruit salad, geni.

Israel will not continue to maintain a huge expeditionary force in gaza, and would really have no reason to remain there,

Well other than attempting to prevent further rocket attacks.


if the HAMAS-supported group holding Shalit suddenly said -- 'OK, enough, here ya go, here he is...sorry about that' and in fact, the Israelis have indicated that releases of the jailed women and youngsters and even 30-40 of the senior detainees would happen anyway, as a gesture, but not as an openly-organized trade or quid-pro-quo for Shalit.


And as I have shown Israel has equaly said they will do no such thing.

[geni]

You misunderstand the question. Why shouldn’t one believe Israel’s “Casus Belli” as you put it?

Because the actions of the IDF are not consistant with it being true.



It doesn’t need to be. It’s assumed that whenever military forces are mobilized, one of the things they will do is, as much as is possible, secure themselves and their charges from attack.


Yes however it is also generaly accepted that when you have a target you don't waste to much time occupying other areas.


It was your phrasing I said made no sense. Could you rephrase for clarity?


Israel's actions are more consistant with dealing with international deplomacy and PR rather than being motivated by a desire to be disshonest.


We have decades of examples of that not working, reason enough to believe the odds of it working now are near nonexistent.


With hammas certianly


Which has nothing to do with if any specific actions of that nation are moral or not.

Yes it does. Part of the ideas behind nation states are that they should protect their own existant regardless of morals.

[geni]

I wonder if we will see independent confirmation from Geni that this does reflect his views.

Close. The Cpl Shalit thing wasn't invented of course. But it was convient. Not perfect but good enough. And Israel has been sensible enough to take full advantage of it. Seems to have been effective with regard to domestic politics as well.

[webfusion]

geni says:
And as I have shown Israel has equally said they will do no such thing.

Where? If you are referring to your post #131, I suggest that you read it more carefully:

Interior Minister Roni Bar-On later said on television: "I have just spoken to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and our position remains unchanged: we refuse to negotiate with Hamas and [Palestinian] prisoners will not be released."

This says the prisoner release would not be negotiated.

That is different from getting back Shalit unconditionally and then making an independent decision to release prisoners as a 'goodwill gesture' (to Abbas).
(see post #128)

In any case, there was just another 'convenient' (in your words) act of war against Israel, resulting in the kidnapping of two more IDF soldiers by Iranian-backed proxy terrorists operating across the internationally-recognized frontier with Lebanon.

The militants latest demands have been issued -----
Now Israel needs to release convicted murderers, specifically this maniac: Samir Kuntar.

Yeah, like that's gonna happen!

[geni]

That is different from getting back Shalit unconditionally and then making an independent decision to release prisoners as a 'goodwill gesture' (to Abbas).
(see post #128)


So no garentees.


In any case, there was just another 'convenient' (in your words) act of war against Israel, resulting in the kidnapping of two more IDF soldiers by Iranian-backed proxy terrorists operating across the internationally-recognized frontier with Lebanon.

This one is not convenient. I haven't seen any idications that Israel was considering invadeing that area to stop the rocket attacks from it.

Not like the summer rain thing:

The operation had been planned for several months, he added, long before the capture of Cpl Shalit in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5174726.stm

[webfusion]

So no guarantees.

You're kidding, right?


As for the operational details of Summer Rains, of course the IDF planned months in advance.
The invasion of gaza was talked about and threatened all during the spring of 2006, and large concentrations of troops were massed in the area, preparing for a mission to go in and stop the rockets.
And once it was underway, Ehud Olmert and Amir Peretz told the IDF to fine-tune the operations, and focus on air attacks to eliminate as many terrorists as possible. That's exactly what is happening. This morning the Israelis dropped a 500-pounder right down the chimney of the house where Muhammed Deif was sleeping. However, the lucky SOB escaped with only some injury... that guy apparently has nine lives...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3270338,00.html


I have no doubt that the IAF is seeking details of where Khaled Mashaal is sleeping tonight, somewhere in Damascus.

That is a guarantee.

[webfusion]

1. Qatar became the first Arab country to call on the Palestinians to release the kidnapped Israeli soldier and end their Qassam missile offensive - in its amended UN Security Council draft resolution.

2. Egypt has guaranteed to HAMAS that the prisoners it seeks will be freed by Israel (based on assurances that President Mubarak has gotten from the Israeli government), after Shalit is returned safe and sound. This was conveyed to a HAMAS representative in Cairo, as the Egyptians are brokering this prisoner exchange, so that Israel does not appear to be making a quid-pro-quo deal directly.

[Mycroft]

Not like the summer rain thing:

The operation had been planned for several months, he added, long before the capture of Cpl Shalit in Gaza.

Isn't it normal for any given military to have all kinds of "plans" for actions that may or may never be carried out?

I’m sure Israel has “plans” for invading all its neighbors, including Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and even long-range strikes against Iran in place, but that doesn’t mean it has the intention of doing any of these things. What it does mean is that it’s the job of a military, any military, to be prepared in the event that action is necessary, and by exploring all kinds of hypothetical situations in advance, they dramatically reduce the chances that in an actual emergency they will waste valuable time assessing their capabilities and making new plans from scratch, or by making bad plans that lead to unnecessary losses.

Has the IDF been making plans for invading Gaza for months? If they are a competent military, and we know they are, it would be inconceivable that they would not. Israel has withdrawn from Gaza for almost a full year, yet there have been almost constant missile attacks from Gaza. They didn’t anticipate the kidnapping of Corporal Shalit, but it given the hostility of Hamas, was only a matter of time before something was necessary.

[webfusion]

mycroft notes: They didn’t anticipate the kidnapping of Corporal Shalit...

Actually, mycroft, the findings of the Eiland inquiry found that there were indeed prior intelligence warnings of exactly that type of attack to kidnap a soldier happening, and units along that border were told to be especially alert.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3273608,00.html
IDF Chief of Staff Halutz emphasized that "there had been specific warnings of the attack."

Just to keep the record straight...

[webfusion]

By Reuters New Wire, Monday 7-17

Iran called on Monday for a ceasefire followed by a prisoner exchange to end the confrontation between its Lebanese Hezbollah guerrilla allies and Israel.

"A reasonable and just solution must be found to end this crisis. A ceasefire and then a swap is achievable," Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said after meetings with senior Syrian officials in Damascus.

Hezbollah wants to exchange two Israeli soldiers it captured on Wednesday in a cross-border raid for several Lebanese prisoners of war Israel has held for years and a number of the estimated 10,000 Palestinians in Israeli jails.

Now there's a novel approach:
Israel quits blowing the heck out of Iran's proxies in Lebanon, and only then, the Israelis will be allowed to negotiate for a prisoner exchange.

Forgive me if I'm really stupid, but wasn't his exactly the same position six days ago (or even further back in time, if you include Corporal Shalit in the equation)? The Hamas and Hexbollocks both have been demanding a cease-fire from Israel first and then maybe, if their demands for releasing palestinian/terrorist prisoners are satisfied, they may consider providing some further information about the IDF soldiers, and perhaps, even letting them go, without additional extortion.


What part about we want the unconditional return of all our kidnapped soldiers, NOW do the Hamas and Hexbollocks not understand?

[fuelair]

I 'spects those Hamass an Herbalists want to look like they have some bit of power coming out of this - not inclusive of the power to rain down hellfire on themselves and the people they bravely hide behind which is the primary one they have right now.

[Mycroft]

What part about we want the unconditional return of all our kidnapped soldiers, NOW do the Hamas and Hexbollocks not understand?

I'm with you buddy.

[AmateurScientist]

I haven't read all of this thread, but I want to address something about the demands for a cease fire coming from Iran/Hezbollah. I suspect that the demands have less of a political purpose and more of a military one. As Hezbollah is being bombed in its strongholds and bases of operation, and Lebanon is being blockaded/sieged, a cease fire would benefit only Hezbollah as this point. It would buy them time to regroup and reorganize, and probably be reinforced and rearmed and resupplied. It would not serve Israel's military goals at all. Therefore, from a military perspective, it would be utterly foolish of Israel to agree to a cease fire. They must continue doing exactly what they are doing now. Hezbollah can take the pressure only so long before they will be forced to give up.

Politically, a cease fire carries different implications. I'm not for it in the least at this point, and I suspect Israel is concerned that a cease fire would telegraph that its resolve is weak. Wrong message.

AS

[Mycroft]

I haven't read all of this thread, but I want to address something about the demands for a cease fire coming from Iran/Hezbollah. I suspect that the demands have less of a political purpose and more of a military one. As Hezbollah is being bombed in its strongholds and bases of operation, and Lebanon is being blockaded/sieged, a cease fire would benefit only Hezbollah as this point. It would buy them time to regroup and reorganize, and probably be reinforced and rearmed and resupplied. It would not serve Israel's military goals at all. Therefore, from a military perspective, it would be utterly foolish of Israel to agree to a cease fire. They must continue doing exactly what they are doing now. Hezbollah can take the pressure only so long before they will be forced to give up.

Politically, a cease fire carries different implications. I'm not for it in the least at this point, and I suspect Israel is concerned that a cease fire would telegraph that its resolve is weak. Wrong message.

AS

I agree. I heard talk of a proposal to send in UN troops to enforce a cease-fire, but the only possible outcome of that would be for the United Nations to protect Hizbollah from Israel, and I don't the the point of that.

[fuelair]

I agree. I heard talk of a proposal to send in UN troops to enforce a cease-fire, but the only possible outcome of that would be for the United Nations to protect Hizbollah from Israel, and I don't the the point of that.

No problem there - based on the recent past, as soon as a bullet is fired in the air within a hundred Km the UN will be OUT OF THERE!

[Darat]

No problem there - based on the recent past, as soon as a bullet is fired in the air within a hundred Km the UN will be OUT OF THERE!

I didn't think the world had such a poor opinion of troops from Britain, Australia and the like.

[webfusion]

UNIFIL (http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-8071.html)
Contributors of Military Personnel : China, France, Ghana, India, Ireland, Italy, Poland and Ukraine.

Not Australia, not England, not the USA.


Additional background reading ---
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/background.html

also -- Spring 1967.
UN Emergency Forces in Sinai are told to exit.
Which they immediately do.
Leaving Israel to fend for itself, as Egyptian troops roll across towards Gaza, and the Straits of Tiran at Sharm el-Sheikh are closed to Israeli ships (as is the Suez Canal, despite "international guarantees" from 1956).

Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs Lester B. Pearson feared a larger war and came up with a clever plan to separate the opposing forces by placing United Nations forces between them to act as a buffer zone or 'human shield' (he later won a Nobel Peace Prize for his role in ending that conflict). This gave birth to the concept of UN peacekeeping operations.

[webfusion]

1. Qatar became the first Arab country to call on the Palestinians to release the kidnapped Israeli soldier and end their Qassam missile offensive - in its amended UN Security Council draft resolution.

2. Egypt has guaranteed to HAMAS that the prisoners it seeks will be freed by Israel (based on assurances that President Mubarak has gotten from the Israeli government), after Shalit is returned safe and sound. This was conveyed to a HAMAS representative in Cairo, as the Egyptians are brokering this prisoner exchange, so that Israel does not appear to be making a quid-pro-quo deal directly.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741409.html
Senior Fatah sources in Gaza said on Saturday (7-22) Hamas is ready to accept a deal that involves freeing abducted soldier Gilad Shalit, a joint cease-fire and an end to IDF actions in the Gaza Strip.

What is not clear is whether Khaled Meshal, the Hamas leader in Damascus, will sanction the Egyptian-brokered deal.

Again, it is all focused on Meshal, who started this.
Stay tuned ---

[Rob Lister]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741409.html
Senior Fatah sources in Gaza said on Saturday (7-22) Hamas is ready to accept a deal that involves freeing abducted soldier Gilad Shalit, a joint cease-fire and an end to IDF actions in the Gaza Strip.

What is not clear is whether Khaled Meshal, the Hamas leader in Damascus, will sanction the Egyptian-brokered deal.

Again, it is all focused on Meshal, who started this.
Stay tuned ---


I hope this is incorrect as it regards the prisoner exchange. Wrong message yet again.

[webfusion]

Israel will release prisoners, that is for sure.
Egypt has said that they have Israeli guarantees, and that's why this offer is being made.

The point here is -- Free Shalit unconditionally, and then we'll move ahead in those other areas to satisfy you.

Not the other way around.

This is a vital distinction, for Israel, not to be seen as doing a trade.

[The Fool]

I hope this is incorrect as it regards the prisoner exchange. Wrong message yet again.
Why would it be a problem Rob?..how long would it take for the IDF to round up some replacement palestinian prisoners?

[webfusion]

Why would it be a problem Rob?..how long would it take for the IDF to round up some replacement palestinian prisoners?

Fifteen minutes.

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&clr=1&docid=54849.EN