Legally disclosing that a house may be haunted

[JLam]

I'm in the process of buying a house. My wife and I were signing a whole stack of documents today, and one of the lines of fine print caught my eye.

The sellers had to declare, under penalty of perjury, that the house was not haunted, and we had to acknowledge it with our initials. I. S:Dit. You. Not.

Seriously. What the hell?

[R.Mackey]

Pity. A haunted house would be worth a mountain of money.

I didn't have that on my house five years ago -- is this a new thing? Have there been successful lawsuits or escrow evasions on the basis of "haunting?"

Oh, and congratulations!

[Gravy]

I'm in the process of buying a house. My wife and I were signing a whole stack of documents today, and one of the lines of fine print caught my eye.

The sellers had to declare, under penalty of perjury, that the house was not haunted, and we had to acknowledge it with our initials. I. S:Dit. You. Not.

Seriously. What the hell?
Congratulations on your new, unhaunted house! That's quite astonishing. Has anyone else heard of such a thing?

[Meffy]

Maybe it's near a famously haunted house, the owners of which didn't want any upstart competition musclin' in on their territory of terror?

[Metullus]

How about this... (http://home.comcast.net/~subwaymark/Ghost/ghost-court.htm)

[Goshawk]

Seriously. What the hell?

Property values is "what the hell".


http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/21/pf/yourhome/househaunting/
Real estate's scary side
Three beds, two baths, one ghost. A haunting tale.
October 31, 2003: 2:34 PM EST
By Les Christie, CNN/Money Contributing Writer

New York (CNN/Money) - Any number of physical factors can complicate the sale of a home: shoddy upkeep, irreparable structural decay, proximity to a toxic waste site.

But one kind of property that causes real nightmares is a house that carries a supernatural stigma. "Psychologically impacted" houses -- in which a murder, suicide, or illness took place -- are a tough sale.

The reason: fear of ghosts.

Two business professors at Wright State University, James Larsen and Joseph Coleman, studied more than 100 psychologically impacted houses. They found that they take 50 percent longer than comparable homes to sell, and price at an average of 2.4 percent less.

Many buyers simply won't buy a house that might contain a ghost.

Now read this. (http://www.remonline.com/rem/news/newspage.aspx?pageid=131&status=yes&top=75) The gist of it:
...The Supreme Court of New York, in a 3-2 vote for the buyers, gave them a release of their deposit and damages. The courts found that if the buyers had been given all of the facts, they could have made their own determination before submitting an offer. This was denied to them due to non-disclosure by the seller...

< snip >

What is evident from this case and is of concern to any real estate salesperson is that the entire case rests on a simple statement: “Stigma does not have to be real to be realized.”
"Non-disclosure" that the house they bought had a firmly entrenched reputation as the town's haunted house.

See?

[rjh01]

Stop looking for woo in law when there is none. The seller promoted the house as haunted over a period of years. Ghost hunters around the country would seek out the property some in package tours, making it harder to sell. The fact that ghosts do not actually exist is not important. It is the seller's own fault she could not sell the house.

This is all from the link in post 5.

[a_unique_person]

There was a case here where a son had murdered his family for the inheritance. (He went down to the Porsche dealer the next day to line one up). After the house was sold, the buyers found out about the story and wanted their money back. IIRC, they got it, the Agent should have told them there had been a triple murder there, apparently.

[Mojo]

Here's a case from the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/257447.stm

The buyers claimed the house was haunted and that they should therefore not have to pay the full price agreed. They lost.

[Moochie]

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a house in which a family, or anyone, had been slaughtered. So if such details apply, I would want to know.

Nothing to do with ghosts, etc. Just too depressing.

M.


(Edited for slight finger malfunction.)

[Darat]

I'm in the process of buying a house. My wife and I were signing a whole stack of documents today, and one of the lines of fine print caught my eye.

The sellers had to declare, under penalty of perjury, that the house was not haunted, and we had to acknowledge it with our initials. I. S:Dit. You. Not.

Seriously. What the hell?

So if it is now haunted could you have a case for a suit against them...? :)

[Meffy]

So if it is now haunted could you have a case for a suit against them...? :)
Sure. Just provide legally valid evidence of the ghost's existence... :-}

[Antiquehunter]

The first property I bought was a condo in Vancouver, 1997 - a foreclosure deal. I walked through and noted a huge blade-shaped gouge in the wall, and an ominous dark pool-shaped stain on the carpet. I made some inquiries (nothing was disclosed voluntarily) and learned that the owner and his wife had a domestic dispute and the husband killed the wife with a large knife. Ended up in jail, lost the condo. Had been vacant for two years. Bank wanted $69k, I offered $52k and got it for $54k. Lived there about one year, bought second place and rented the murder scene ever since for $600 - $700 a month. One month vacancy in the past 7 years. Current appraisal - $165k.

Made an interesting conversation starter at parties (did you know someone was murdered here?) and no, I don't disclose to my tenants that there was a murder in the property.

No ghost evidence either. But raccoons are a problem.

-AH.

[NoZed Avenger]

No ghost evidence either. But raccoons are a problem.


[Dr. Evil]

Ghost raccoons?

[/Dr. Evil]

[Mojo]

So if it is now haunted could you have a case for a suit against them...? :)No, you would have to prove that it was haunted at the time they made the declaration (and that they knew about it).

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

In your excitement over the haunted house clause, I bet you completely missed the clause where the seller has to swear that the house is not a portal to another dimension.

But this is all trivial compared to the clause I am now working to require on house sales. I believe all owners should be required to install Farraday cages around their houses so that no one can remote view the occupants.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The first property I bought was a condo in Vancouver, 1997 - a foreclosure deal. I walked through and noted a huge blade-shaped gouge in the wall, and an ominous dark pool-shaped stain on the carpet. I made some inquiries (nothing was disclosed voluntarily) and learned that the owner and his wife had a domestic dispute and the husband killed the wife with a large knife. Ended up in jail, lost the condo. Had been vacant for two years. Bank wanted $69k, I offered $52k and got it for $54k. Lived there about one year, bought second place and rented the murder scene ever since for $600 - $700 a month. One month vacancy in the past 7 years. Current appraisal - $165k.
Holy Toledo! You could make a killing as a real estate Special Cases Consultant.

~~ Paul

[Moochie]

All very funny. But would you live in a place where horrible crimes had happened -- crimes that you knew about?

M.

[Darat]

Yep - why ever not? (ETA - I would however probably paint over the blood splatters and get a nice rug to cover the blood stains in the carpet.)

I have heard it said that in the UK if your house is a 100 years old then it is almost certain you are sleeping in a room that someone has died in.

[senorpogo]

Excellent.

The woos can buy this paranormal garbage all they want if it means that I can get an awesom "haunted" house at a significantly reduced price. It'll be the life! Sitting in my haunted jacuzzi on my haunted deck sipping haunted mai-tais all the while paying an ultra low monthly house payment.

Score one for the skeptics.

[Moochie]

Yep - why ever not? (ETA - I would however probably paint over the blood splatters and get a nice rug to cover the blood stains in the carpet.)

I have heard it said that in the UK if your house is a 100 years old then it is almost certain you are sleeping in a room that someone has died in.


Sure.

M.

[Antiquehunter]

Not sure what the deal is with a house where someone died - my grandfather died in my childhood house (OK - not violently) and I felt no repulsion. Replaced the carpet, hired painters to patch the walls and repaint, redecorated and bada-bing - who knows what goes on.

You buy an older house - people LIVED there. That means they may have DIED there. Whether someone shagged in your kitchen, picked their nose in your bedroom, peed in your shower or met a violent end in your living room - if you make it your HOME does it make a difference?

Didn't anyone watch Six Feet Under?

The bank was a fool in this case imho. Knowing that people may have a certain aversion to buying a 'distressed' property, why they didn't spend a couple of grand to clean up the mess to make it look the list bit 'ok' boggles the mind. I never would have specifically inquired 'was there a crime scene in this unit' if it wasn't for the fact the place wasn't even CLEANED UP... And if I hadn't asked, no one would've told. Kinda like the army.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

All very funny. But would you live in a place where horrible crimes had happened -- crimes that you knew about?
What's the problem? Does the house r e m e m b e r ?

~~ Paul

[kevin]

All very funny. But would you live in a place where horrible crimes had happened -- crimes that you knew about?

M.

i lived in the same house my parents had sex in for years. talk about shivers up the spine!

[gtc]

There was a case here where a son had murdered his family for the inheritance. (He went down to the Porsche dealer the next day to line one up). After the house was sold, the buyers found out about the story and wanted their money back. IIRC, they got it, the Agent should have told them there had been a triple murder there, apparently.

IIRC that house was something of a tourist attraction and could be hard to on-sell. To that extent it would be reasonable to expect disclosure.

I thought for a moment about buying the house when it came back on the market, but the house was still way too expensive.

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm in the process of buying a house. My wife and I were signing a whole stack of documents today, and one of the lines of fine print caught my eye.


Have you found out the history in the house yet?

[hellaeon]

you guys have given me an idea for when I want to buy!

Cheers!

[JLam]

All very funny. But would you live in a place where horrible crimes had happened -- crimes that you knew about?

M.I know some people who would pay extra to live in place like that. :eek:

Personally, I don't give a crap if someone got killed in there. What the hell difference does it make to me today?

[Eos of the Eons]

I know some people who would pay extra to live in place like that. :eek:

Personally, I don't give a crap if someone got killed in there. What the hell difference does it make to me today?


You could charge people and give them tours. Have some fans strategically placed to make the hairs on the backs of their necks have some fun too.

Hey, have you heard anything about the house you bought? I'll get started on some pamphlets for you to hand out...

[Starthinker]

So, my house was recently appraised at $97,000. I can put it on the market for say, $150,000 and disclose that the house is haunted. The buyers balk at this so I relent and sell it for $110,000. And, because they were so concerned about the disclosure of the haunting and so happy that they screwed me based on the fact that the house is haunted that they overlooked the disclosure about the sewers backing up on a regular basis so they can't come back and sue me the next time they run the dishwasher and shower at the same time and the basement floods because it was disclosed and they still bought it. Neat.

[Moochie]

Not worried about death -- some are very nice.

Wouldn't want to live in a house in which people met a violent end, though.

Too much baggage.

M.

[HopperUK]

Not worried about death -- some are very nice.

Wouldn't want to live in a house in which people met a violent end, though.

Too much baggage.

What baggage? Is it just that you'd find yourself thinking about it too much? Because I could understand that, for sure. It'd kinda bother me just because I couldn't ever quite forget about it.

[Mrs.JLam]

I disagree with my husband on this because I would definitely not like to live where someone was killed. (Moochie - I agree!) It just gives me the creeps. Not in a freaky weird kinda way, but I feel like it would always be in the back of my mind. Sort of along the same lines of scary movies. I know they're obviously not true, but they still creep me out.

[rustytunes]

The sellers had to declare, under penalty of perjury, that the house was not haunted, and we had to acknowledge it with our initials. I. S:Dit. You. Not.
I would not be keen to sign a declaration, under penalty of perjury, that the house is not haunted. It might be - how can it be legally verified that it is or isn't? Call in the ghost hunters and have them provide duely official documentation, all legal and traceable?

[Scott Haley]

1) Vote for the County Assessor who believes in ghosts. 2) Pay a psychic to detect ghosts in your home, reducing the property value, meaning that you get to pay lower land taxes. 3) When you're ready to sell the house, hire an exorcist to do his thing and to declare the house clean and free of all ghosts.

[rustytunes]

1) Vote for the County Assessor who believes in ghosts. 2) Pay a psychic to detect ghosts in your home, reducing the property value, meaning that you get to pay lower land taxes. 3) When you're ready to sell the house, hire an exorcist to do his thing and to declare the house clean and free of all ghosts.
:D
Thus providing official validation of ghost hunters, psychics and exorcists...

[brettDbass]

I disagree with my husband on this because I would definitely not like to live where someone was killed. (Moochie - I agree!) It just gives me the creeps. Not in a freaky weird kinda way, but I feel like it would always be in the back of my mind. Sort of along the same lines of scary movies. I know they're obviously not true, but they still creep me out.
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about using hospital beds?

[Mrs.JLam]

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about using hospital beds?

Ew....you're right. Maybe as I'm giving birth to our first child I can curse Jlam for knocking me up AND for making me lay in a bed where someone probably died. :)

[rustytunes]

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about using hospital beds?
Hopefully, not too many people are murdered in hospitals.

[rjh01]

But many people would have died of natural causes in hospitals. Also many people would die of their wounds in hospital after being attacked (depending on the local murder rate).

On the other hand, to reassure Mrs.Jlam, not many of them would have died in the beds and wards used by women who have just given birth.

[rustytunes]

But many people would have died of natural causes in hospitals. Also many people would die of their wounds in hospital after being attacked (depending on the local murder rate).
True. All the time, I'm guessing. But there wouldn't be violent murders etc happening in hospitals.

Gee, a hospital would be ghost city, if one is a bleever!

[JLam]

Hey folks, quit freaking out my wife! :p

[rustytunes]

:shocked:

[rjh01]

JLam, what rule are you accusing us of violating? Until someone tells me I am getting close to, or violating a rule then I will continue to behave in the way I am.

In my post above I was referring to people being attacked OUTSIDE of the hospital and then brought in still alive, then dieing inside of the hospital. Not crimes happening inside of the hospital.

Murders happening in hospital? Maybe there are heaps of these as well. Terminally ill patients that are in pain are sometimes given enough pain killers to relieve their pain, even if it kills them (no discussion on the morals of this please!)

I do agree that there would be many times more ghosts in hospitals than elsewhere. Though <a large number> * 0 = 0 (Just to keep James Randi and his supporters happy).

[rustytunes]

I think that JLam's last post was in jest...

But seriously, the concept of verifying that your house is not haunted prior to sale is absolutely beyond comprehension.

[fuelair]

I think that JLam's last post was in jest...

But seriously, the concept of verifying that your house is not haunted prior to sale is absolutely beyond comprehension.

Because no one is stupid enough to believe in ghosts? We all know that (woo, wooo, woooo!!!!!).:eye-poppi :jaw-dropp :covereyes

[rustytunes]

Well, if one did sign that their house is indeed haunted, then they formalise the fact that they are (a) deluded, (b) gullible, (c) frauds, or (d) stupid.

[rjh01]

You may have promoted your house as haunted and everyone 'knows' that ghosts live there and there are unexplained noises in the house, but since ghosts do not exist you can sign that document. In short the document is worthless.

[rustytunes]

You may have promoted your house as haunted and everyone 'knows' that ghosts live there and there are unexplained noises in the house, but since ghosts do not exist you can sign that document. In short the document is worthless.
But if the new buyers maintain that the house is indeed not haunted, when they understood that they were buying a haunted house, would you then be liable? That would be an interesting scenario...

[JLam]

JLam, what rule are you accusing us of violating? Until someone tells me I am getting close to, or violating a rule then I will continue to behave in the way I am.Easy there tiger, I'm just yanking your chain.

[rjh01]

I may be married but I do not have a chain. Can I jank your chain? I see you have one. Or maybe I can get your wife to do so? She is closer.

:dl:

[Sir Arthur Mortal Coyle]

But if you lived in a house that a serial killer had owned wouldn't you feel awkward replacing the patio/digging up the Lawn :eek:

[chillzero]

But if the new buyers maintain that the house is indeed not haunted, when they understood that they were buying a haunted house, would you then be liable? That would be an interesting scenario...

I believe there was a case within the last year when a homeowner sued the original owners of the house they bought because of undisclosed hauntings. I'll tried and find a link - it's probably in this section of the forum somewhere already.

[rustytunes]

But if you lived in a house that a serial killer had owned wouldn't you feel awkward replacing the patio/digging up the Lawn :eek:
Yes - who knows what the dog may drag in....

[Miss Whiplash]

I've found I've bought a house with an undisclosed haunting. The previous owners put epoxy paint over patterned wall paper. I'm being haunted by stripes.

[rustytunes]

I've found I've bought a house with an undisclosed haunting. The previous owners put epoxy paint over patterned wall paper. I'm being haunted by stripes.
:D Good one

[Moochie]

There was a case here in Australia not that long ago where people went to court and got their money back after they learned they'd bought what had been a crime scene involving the murder of several people.

There was no mention of ghosts or anything particularly woo, just that the buyers didn't like the idea of living in such a place.

M.

[Starthinker]

I could murder a double cheeseburger right about now.

[Huntster]

.......The sellers had to declare, under penalty of perjury, that the house was not haunted, and we had to acknowledge it with our initials. I. S:Dit. You. Not.

Seriously. What the hell?

Lawyers.

They're much worse than ghosts, snakes, and termites.............

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Darat :
So if it is now haunted could you have a case for a suit against them...?
Sure. Just provide legally valid evidence of the ghost's existence... :-}

-------to the jury.

Science and proof has nothing to do with it. All you have to do is hang or convince the jury.