JPs Boxcutter Derail thread

[Johnny Pixels]

I've made a separate thread to avoid derailing the Loose Change part III one. This all revolves around the dangerousness (or maybe the dangertivity) of boxcutters.

Loosers suggest that they'd laugh, and/or Chuck Norris the box cutters out of the hijackers hands. I caused a stir when one poster on the LC forum said his dad threatened him with boxcutters to prove a point. Someone replied that he should call the police. I said this was hypocritical because they were suggesting that boxcutters weren't dangerous, unless it seems, they are actually used against them. This resulted in accusations of me being a heartless monster, here:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7171

So here, I attempt to provide evidence of the dangers of boxcutters:

Exhibit 1:

A girl slashed with a razor blade, ie a boxcutter blade, minus the leverage of the handle.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8930/40933238shanni2033007qr.jpg

Story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/5121198.stm

Exhibit 2:

South Korean opposition leader needs 2 hours of surgery after boxcutter attack, and won't be able to speak for months.

Story: http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?no=293408&rel_no=1

Exhibit 3:

Greyhound bus driver's throat slit with boxcutter or razor blade, causing bus to crash.

Story:http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/10/03/bus.crash/

[Ersby]

By coincidence, a few weeks ago I heard a podcast (Keith And The Girl) where they were talking about how a few years ago in New York, boxcutters were pretty common in street fights. Is that right?

[Dragon]

Just to be clear what we are talking about - it's what we would call a Stanley knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_knife) in the UK, correct?
Ersby, they have been used in the UK too - IIRC it was a common weapon used by skinheads/football hooligans in the past. (The yobs' weapon of choice seems to be the lock-knife these days)

[Ersby]

Woah, boxcutter=stanley knife??!

Those things are nasty.

[Starthinker]

There's a reason we call something "razor sharp". It's because a razor is the sharpest thing we can think of. All the boxcutters I have are razors in handles and when someone is attacking you with one I think it would be the same as being attacked with a knife, only you know there's a good chance that it's sharper than a knife. Not that I follow the loose changes threads, but anyone who says you would be less afraid of a box cutter than a knife is just plain crazy. Simply attack them with one and they will change their tune.

By the way, didn't the people on the flight that went down in Pennyslvania fight back? Who said no one tried?

[Johnny Pixels]

Just to be clear what we are talking about - it's what we would call a Stanley knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_knife) in the UK, correct?
Ersby, they have been used in the UK too - IIRC it was a common weapon used by skinheads/football hooligans in the past. (The yobs' weapon of choice seems to be the lock-knife these days)

Yeah, I didn't realise this at first, but they are the same type as Stanley knives. That's the one knife my dad would never let me touch as a kid. Kitchen knives, be careful. Stanley knife, never touch.

[Dragon]

Woah, boxcutter=stanley knife??!

Those things are nasty.When I first heard the word in connection with the 9/11 hijackings I thought that they were talking about some sort of "safety-knife" like the ones used by the emergency services for cutting seatbelts. The truth is that they are, as you say, a nasty little weapon.
Didn't the toad Avery pour scorn on boxcutters/Stanley knives as weapons in an interview? Perhaps he would be willing to confront someone wielding one...

[Johnny Pixels]

By the way, didn't the people on the flight that went down in Pennyslvania fight back? Who said no one tried?

A lot of them don't believe that the phone calls made by passengers on that flight are real. Yes, they also dance on the graves of those heroic people that had a chance to fight back and took it.

[Johnny Pixels]

When I first heard the word in connection with the 9/11 hijackings I thought that they were talking about some sort of "safety-knife" like the ones used by the emergency services for cutting seatbelts. The truth is that they are, as you say, a nasty little weapon.
Didn't the toad Avery pour scorn on boxcutters/Stanley knives as weapons in an interview? Perhaps he would be willing to confront someone wielding one...
From Gravy's Loose Change Creators Speak.pdf (http://911myths.com/LooseChangeCreatorsSpeak.pdf):

Avery: Ha Ha Ha Ha! Have you seen how small those things [box cutters] are? Like, if I was on a flight, with, you know, at least 50 other people – because that's the smallest number I think was on 9/11* – if I was in the cabin, with 50 other people, and five people – I don't care if they're Muslim or not – stand up with box cutters and say they're gonna hijack the plane, I'm gonna laugh in their face!

[Hellbound]

Yep.

The blades used were more what we'd call a "utility knife". An extendible, break-away blade that can reach about 4 inches or so mounted in a handle. THey also generally carry multiple blades in the handle.

Not a "tiny little box cutter" but a 4 inch, razor sharp, lightweight, fast blade. A knife would be easier.

[dubfan]

By the way, didn't the people on the flight that went down in Pennyslvania fight back? Who said no one tried?

Heh heh heh heh.

[Apollyon]

Avery: Ha Ha Ha Ha! Have you seen how small those things [box cutters] are? Like, if I was on a flight, with, you know, at least 50 other people – because that's the smallest number I think was on 9/11* – if I was in the cabin, with 50 other people, and five people – I don't care if they're Muslim or not – stand up with box cutters and say they're gonna hijack the plane, I'm gonna laugh in their face!

Wow. Dylan is so brave to laugh straight in the face of imaginary danger. No wonder he's such a hero to those with vivid imaginations.

[60hzxtl]

Somebody has to say it - (might as well be me) size does not matter.

How big is a scalpel?

Want to face one? It wasn't a duel - it was most likely a pounce and slash of one victim for maximum shock value, i.e. "you're next, and we are all around the plane."

There is also an old gang maxim:

Charge a gun, run from a knife.

[Psiload]

If it came down to having a gun held to my head, or a boxcutter held to my throat, call me crazy, but I'd go with the gun.

A gun is Pop! Lights out, and sweet oblivion.

A boxcutter is a slash and you get to watch the life pumping out of you. Yuck, no thank you.

I once witnessed a guy cutting sheetrock with a utility knife, he slipped and nearly cut his thumb off. :eek:

Only a fool could deny the horrible potential of a razor sharp blade.

[Johnny Pixels]

The problem of rushing a knife is protecting yourself. Put your arms up and they get slashed. Keep them out the way and its your face/neck/torso in the way. Grab the knife hand and the attacker still has another hand and his feet, but you can't let go of the knife hand because you're now within range, so you've got to concentrate on holding the knife hand, hold it away from your body, and fight off his other arm and stop him from kicking you. All in a narrow aeroplane gangway.

Maybe if you're Chuck Norris, but then he probably eats boxcutters for breakfast.

[SRW]

If it came down to having a gun held to my head, or a boxcutter held to my throat, call me crazy, but I'd go with the gun.

A gun is Pop! Lights out, and sweet oblivion.

A boxcutter is a slash and you get to watch the life pumping out of you. Yuck, no thank you.

I once witnessed a guy cutting sheetrock with a utility knife, he slipped and nearly cut his thumb off. :eek:

Only a fool could deny the horrible potential of a razor sharp blade.

I still have a scar on my thumb, and no feeling on one side of it after cutting open a box, with a box cutter. it was over 30 years ago. lots of blood and It hurt like hell. I have also used them to cut carpet and score Sheetrock. They are nasty little things.

[Hellbound]

The problem of rushing a knife is protecting yourself. Put your arms up and they get slashed. Keep them out the way and its your face/neck/torso in the way. Grab the knife hand and the attacker still has another hand and his feet, but you can't let go of the knife hand because you're now within range, so you've got to concentrate on holding the knife hand, hold it away from your body, and fight off his other arm and stop him from kicking you. All in a narrow aeroplane gangway.

Maybe if you're Chuck Norris, but then he probably eats boxcutters for breakfast.

Another thing is that even holding the knife hand away doesn't mean you won't get cut. With a knife blade you can easily twist it around, moving your wrist. Depending on how you're holding my knife arm, I still have a "danger radius" around that point, and that radius may include the arm/wrist you're using to hold me (admittedly, I can't put as much power behind it, but a razor cut to your arm will likely loosen your grip...or to the side of your face, or shoulder, or anything else that gets close).

If you fight a person holding a knife, you will get cut, If they have half a clue as to what they are doing. It takes about 30 minutes or teaching and semi-rgular practice to be dangerous with a knife, and pretty much garauntee you'll cut your opponent coming at you open hand (there's more to learn about knife fighting, but you become dangerous very quickly with minimal training).

[Belz...]

Maybe if you're Chuck Norris, but then he probably eats boxcutters for breakfast.

Pfft. Chuck Norris' atoms are in the shape of box-cutters, so...

[CptColumbo]

I was once held up by a boxcutter (the little ones you can get in boxes of 20). While I didn't fear for my life, I still didn't want to get cut with a razor blade, and I only had $40. A friend who was with me, didn't share my concern, and got cut several times across the chest. The mugger got away, because I was trying to stop the bleeding from my friends chest.

BTW if you've ever been on a plane you'd know that any self defense moves would be very restricted. That's why people have to file out single file.

[Johnny Pixels]

To respond to Jenabell's post: (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7171&view=findpost&p=5798465)

Why do you feel the need to act as Johnny's lackey? Do you feel some sort of connection with him?

DavidJames posted the reply because my posting permissions have been removed on the LC forum. Why? Who knows. I never broke any rules, but I did ask questions, but then asking questions seems to be against the rules.

I can say I have never danced a jig, let alone on any grave, and I do not have any idea where any of the victims of Sept. 11th are buried.

Uhm, Loose Change, dedicated to the lives we lost on 9/11, and you have no idea even where any of them are buried, or where there are memorials, and you people keep telling us how much you care?

If the monster that is Johnny has video or pictures (sworn testimony even) of people here that have done this deed, then he needs to produce it, if not he is just spewing more lies and garbage.

Lets see, your next post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7171&view=findpost&p=5798676) will do

There are Internet tough guys and then those that may be pointing out the fact that most humans will defend themselves when their lives are threatened. Don't worry your point is a valid one, just misplaced.

Are you claiming the passengers on Flight 93 didn't fight back? Do you deny the phone calls? To deny they fought back, and to deny their phone calls denies their bravery. I see you have your dancing shoes on.

[kedo1981]

One other point is it took along time for the passengers to realize that it was a one-way trip.
If you think it’s going to be a “normal” hijacking you probably aren’t going to try and fight a “camel humping, oil swilling, murdering c**k-s**ker of a Muslim” with any kind of weapon.
Doubt it would be that way today.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I think what the Loosers forget was that pre 9-11, people were told to cooperate with hijackers. You couldn't do it again with box cutters today.

They aren't as deadly as some people here seem to be making out, because they can't stab. Unless they cut a major blood vessel near the surface, such as the ones in your neck, the wounds are superficial. I'd much rather face a box cutter than a knife if my life was on the line.

[kookbreaker]

BTW if you've ever been on a plane you'd know that any self defense moves would be very restricted. That's why people have to file out single file.

Yeah, no kidding. When some of them say "I have martial arts training, so I'd kick them in the head". Part of me says that button mashing on your Xbox fighter games does not qualify as 'Martial Arts', and the other part comes up with this monolgue from our hero on the plane:

"Excuse me, sorry, uh...can I ge thro...Sorry, gotta go kick that guy in the head..sorry...Ow. Oh ggeez, didn't mean to pull your headrest back like this, gonna go kick that guy withthe boxcutter in the head..Oof, ouch, dangit! SOrry, but could you scoot, no?.. If I could get a couple of inches I can..aww geez, no...wait. I'm almost out.. No..hey.. can you wait a sec, gotta go kick that guy in the head.Oww. Steady. OK. Finally in the aisle! No I'll just go kic...AWW WHO LEFT THIS BEVERAGE CART HERE!"

[Johnny Pixels]

They aren't as deadly as some people here seem to be making out, because they can't stab. Unless they cut a major blood vessel near the surface, such as the ones in your neck, the wounds are superficial. I'd much rather face a box cutter than a knife if my life was on the line.

If they are the utility knives that Hunstman described then they can stab, as they extend, and because they can break off they would keep the wound open and bleeding. I also think that the pain from slashes would be significant, as the sharpness of the blade means it cuts deeper, causing more blood loss, and the sight of so much blood can be psychologically damaging if not physically.

[Hellbound]

Well, my reference is the picture of a knife from the Moussuni (sp?) trial, which depicted a utility-type knife.

If it were the small boxcutters, then likely they would not be deadly, but still painful...and I wouldn't face one down unless I already knew this was not a "normal" hostage situation.

[gfunkusarelius]

here's a question this whole debate raised with me...i saw the film united 93 and i am wondering how accurate some of the basic information was...in the film they presented it as tho the terrorists made an inital surprise and very vicious attack, killing a few people by slashing their throats before they had time to realize what was happening. on top of that, on at least one of the flights they claimed they had a bomb (at least i am pretty certain that was the case). now, assuming none of that info is even correct, and in light of what others have said (in terms of how people responded to hijackings before 9/11), wouldnt it make sense that an initial surprise attack where blood was immediately shed, the passengers would be extremely frightened of trying to make any sudden moves? i just think it makes way too much sense to believe the opposite.

[XXX]

Just add my 2 cents real quick,

Yes, they are being hypocritical about the boxcutters. Absolutely. However, if that kid's Dad really did exactly what he said, I too say call the cops. The guy is probably unstable and maybe dangerous, you don't threaten your own kid like that. I have no tollerence for people who act like that.

[Azrael 5]

I never knew what a boxcutter was until reading this thread!!
A stanley knife! I was getting boxcutters confused with boltcutters!

[Stellafane]

Laughing at boxcutters is probably the stupidest thing Avery has ever done, and that's saying something. Just consider:

(1) He's calling the victims on the hijacked planes cowards, which isn't going to sit too well with a lot of people.

(2) Boxcutters were in some cases the least of the victim's concerns, since on at least one plane they thought the hijackers had bombs.

(3) Before 9/11, the standard drill was cooperate with the hijackers.

And above all,

(4) He leaves himself open for some not-too-tightly-wrapped person who disagrees with him to come up brandishing a boxcutter and announce, "Laugh at this, sucker!" The resulting photos of Avery in soiled pants, on his knees begging for mercy, would probably stop the "truth" movement in its tracks.

[Gravy]

I tested this today on the streets of Brooklyn by grabbing 10 people from behind and holding a boxcutter blade to their necks. Afterwards, all admitted to being extremely frightened.

[bob_kark]

I tested this today on the streets of Brooklyn by grabbing 10 people from behind and holding a boxcutter blade to their necks. Afterwards, all admitted to being extremely frightened.

Maybe its because you didn't dress up as a muslim extremist, also you weren't in an airplane, or claiming to have a bomb. I hear all that stuff really calms people down.

Oh, you also didn't kill anyone. I mean, its not even remotely similar.

[Regnad Kcin]

Is it established that the hijacking weapons were either the Stanley knife, or the utility-style boxcutter? I ask because I know of a third style: a slender metal sheath containing a sliding receptacle which holds a single-edge razor blade (http://www.esupplystore.com/images/Products/boxcutter.jpg). Once extended it would be a formidable weapon (not that the others mentioned aren't).

[pgwenthold]

Laughing at boxcutters is probably the stupidest thing Avery has ever done, and that's saying something. Just consider:

(1) He's calling the victims on the hijacked planes cowards, which isn't going to sit too well with a lot of people.

(2) Boxcutters were in some cases the least of the victim's concerns, since on at least one plane they thought the hijackers had bombs.

(3) Before 9/11, the standard drill was cooperate with the hijackers.

And above all,

(4) He leaves himself open for some not-too-tightly-wrapped person who disagrees with him to come up brandishing a boxcutter and announce, "Laugh at this, sucker!" The resulting photos of Avery in soiled pants, on his knees begging for mercy, would probably stop the "truth" movement in its tracks.

I would add (3a) When it became clear that these were not normal hijackings, in fact the passengers DID revolt, risking injury and their lives to save others by overtaking the hijackers.

For the first three, there was no reasons the passengers could expect that overtaking the hijackers would ultimately be the best solution.

[casebro]

I'm a wood carver. I've cut myself with razor sharp knives many times. There is no pain at the time, it won't start for several minutes. But i don't like the sensation of the edge sticking in the bone- lots of friction there. While I have little use for utility knives because they are too wimpy, gangbangers used them because the short blades don't kill anybody- assault has lesser penalties than murder does. Terrorists would like them for their concealability, plus a few slashes with a sharp knife will make LOTS of blood, with it's emotional impact. Remember, their point was not to kill a couple passengers, but to cow a whole plane load. Didn't work on the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania, when passengers knew the trade off. Note that NONE of the OP's exhibits mentioned deaths.

Actually secure cockpits prevented hijackings better than the billions of passenger searchs.

[Gravy]

Laughing at boxcutters is probably the stupidest thing Avery has ever done, and that's saying something. Just consider:
(1) He's calling the victims on the hijacked planes cowards, which isn't going to sit too well with a lot of people.
(2) Boxcutters were in some cases the least of the victim's concerns, since on at least one plane they thought the hijackers had bombs.
(3) Before 9/11, the standard drill was cooperate with the hijackers.
And above all,
(4) He leaves himself open for some not-too-tightly-wrapped person who disagrees with him to come up brandishing a boxcutter and announce, "Laugh at this, sucker!" The resulting photos of Avery in soiled pants, on his knees begging for mercy, would probably stop the "truth" movement in its tracks.

This article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3919613.stm) is a good summary of the 9/11 Commission Report's findings about the weapons the hijackers were believed to have, as well as the passenger phone calls made.

Flight 11
Sweeney calmly reported on her line that the plane had been hijacked; a man in first class had his throat slashed; two flight attendants had been stabbed - one was seriously hurt and was on oxygen while the other's wounds seemed minor; a doctor had been requested; the flight attendants were unable to contact the cockpit; and there was a bomb in the cockpit...

Flight 175
They used knives (as reported by two passengers and a flight attendant), Mace (reported by one passenger), and the threat of a bomb (reported by the same passenger).

They stabbed members of the flight crew (reported by a flight attendant and one passenger).

Both pilots had been killed (reported by one flight attendant)...

At 0900, Lee Hanson received a second call from his son Peter: "It's getting bad, Dad - a stewardess was stabbed - they seem to have knives and Mace - they said they have a bomb -

Flight 77
The hijackers used knives (reported by one passenger) and moved all the passengers (and possibly crew) to the rear of the aircraft (reported by one flight attendant and one passenger)...

At some point between 0916 and 0926, Barbara Olson called her husband, Ted Olson, the solicitor general of the United States.She reported that the flight had been hijacked, and the hijackers had knives and box cutters... About a minute into the conversation, the call was cut off.

Flight 93
At 0932, a hijacker, probably Jarrah, made or attempted to make the following announcement to the passengers of Flight 93: "Ladies and Gentlemen: Here the captain, please sit down keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb on board. So, sit." (More about flight 93 below.)
From the 9/11 Commission Report, footnote 82 to chapter 1:
The FBI collected 14 knives or portions of knives at the Flight 93 crash site. FBI report, “Knives Found at the UA Flight 93 Crash Site,” undated.

Flight 93 Phone Call Summary None of these calls happened, according to Avery, Fetzer et al.
At least two callers from the flight reported that the hijackers knew that passengers were making calls but did not seem to care... It might not have occurred to him that they were certain to learn what had happened in New York, thereby defeating his attempts at deception.

At least 10 passengers and two crew members shared vital information with family, friends, colleagues, or others on the ground. All understood the plane had been hijacked.

They said the hijackers wielded knives and claimed to have a bomb.
The hijackers were wearing red bandanas, and they forced the passengers to the back of the aircraft.

Callers reported that a passenger had been stabbed and that two people were lying on the floor of the cabin, injured or dead - possibly the captain and first officer.

One caller reported that a flight attendant had been killed...

During at least five of the passengers' phone calls, information was shared about the attacks that had occurred earlier that morning at the World Trade Center.

Five calls described the intent of passengers and surviving crew members to revolt against the hijackers.

According to one call, they voted on whether to rush the terrorists in an attempt to retake the plane.

They decided, and acted.

[Gravy]

Maybe its because you didn't dress up as a muslim extremist, also you weren't in an airplane, or claiming to have a bomb. I hear all that stuff really calms people down.
Some people did comment that they found my red bandanna to have a soothing effect.

Oh, you also didn't kill anyone. I mean, its not even remotely similar.
I admit that's a flaw in my protocol. I've been Googling to find a country where it's legal to kill strangers for science, but no luck so far. My next plan it to take Ken Dewdney of the 9/11 Scholars for Truth on four flights over London, Ontario in a Cessna 172. I will attack him at 2,000, 4,000, and 8,000 feet, and will then extrapolate how frightened he would be if the attack took place at 32,000 feet. I'm going to call it "Operation BM."

[Psiload]

On the other hand...

Getting your face slashed can be a good career move.

Irish actor Tommy Flanagan (Braveheart, Gladiator, etc...) was attacked outside of a bar by two blade-wielding assailants.

Pic:

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/granitz/1392/Events/1392/TommyFlana_Grani_378961_400.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Flanagan,%20Tommy%20(I)

It certainly gave him a distinctive "look".

[Johnny Pixels]

Just add my 2 cents real quick,

Yes, they are being hypocritical about the boxcutters. Absolutely. However, if that kid's Dad really did exactly what he said, I too say call the cops. The guy is probably unstable and maybe dangerous, you don't threaten your own kid like that. I have no tollerence for people who act like that.

From reading the whole of the kids post, it sounded as if he was heavily into the whole truth movement and it was affecting his relationship with his father, because his father seems to give a damn about the truth. I admit grabbing him by the collar and waving a knife at him does seem to be very reckless, but I think his father was more making a "you don't have a clue" point, rather than threatening him.

But saying that, I don't condone violence in any form. Well apart from some people who I'd really like to smack in the mouth, but luckily for them I have the patience of a saint.

[Rat]

I never knew what a boxcutter was until reading this thread!!
A stanley knife! I was getting boxcutters confused with boltcutters!
Yeah, I never gave it much thought (or I would have realized how ludicrous it was; at least as ludicrous as boltcutters) but I was thinking of those things with the recessed blades that you used to cut packing wire for quite a long time. It took me a while to realize that they meant Stanley knives. I think I'd go up against the former (at a push), but it'd take something to make me take on the latter unnecessarily.

Cheers,
Rat.

[kevin]

I've made a separate thread to avoid derailing the Loose Change part III one. This all revolves around the dangerousness (or maybe the dangertivity) of boxcutters.

I got into a debate with a guy about this a few days after 9/11. Basically it appears that people think knives/sharp things only hurt people by stabbing them, and that arteries are really deep in the body.

Slashing is way more dangerous than stabbing and there are a number of arteries close to the skin that even fairly shallow slashes can cut.

Just look at the number of suicides by slashing the wrists. And that's slower than the artery in the neck.

[kevin]

a slender metal sheath containing a sliding receptacle which holds a single-edge razor blade (http://www.esupplystore.com/images/Products/boxcutter.jpg). Once extended it would be a formidable weapon (not that the others mentioned aren't).

I have a box of those at work (don't ask). The standard stanley style utility knife would have a slightly deeper cut than this style. however when closed this type is much harder to identify as a knife (the case is metal so on x-ray it should show mainly as a rectangular piece of metal, not very knife like.)

You can pull the handle out the back end, usually to change the single edge razor it holds. Using it this way would probably be better, but the blade corner would probably tend to snag on things. The angle of the stanley knife would keep it from snagging.

They probably carried a mix of knives in case some were found and turned away at security.

[gumboot]

One thing to bear in mind, is these "knives" have a wide range...

I have several, from the tiny little palstic ones with a blade 1cm across or less, lightweight, and the blade snaps under any real pressure...

Right up to my Tajima knife (LC-650). It has a heavy solid handle, the blade is over an inch across, hideously sharp, very strong, and a good 4 inches long.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

I posted this in the LC Thread, but it is pertinent to this discussion...


Another thing to consider with these terrorists...

Some of them, at least, were Osama's prize Mujahedeen. They are hard, hard men, with many years of experience fighting first the Soviet Union, then whoever they felt like fighting. These are the worst combination - extreme religious fanatics, and cold hard killers.

I have this absolutely fascinating, and somewhat disturbing book called "On Killing: The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society" (by Lt Col. Dave Grossman). One of the things it talks about is the "wind of hate" - the psychological impact of being the subject of hostility (for most people even just confronting their boss about a raise at work is too confrontational). As an example, he cites research that indicates that the vast majority of serial killer victims offered so little resistance they "virtually assisted in their own murders".

When a screaming fantatic, 1000 yard-stare killer Jihadist terrorist takes over your plane, the "wind of hate" would be pretty significant. Most of the passengers would probably be so psychologically traumatised by the mere PRESENCE of the terrorists that they were incapable of action (then add knives and maybe a few people with slit throats to the equation...). That is what makes the actions of the passengers on United 93 so heroic - they overcame that wind of hate. (And lets be honest, could they have honestly believed they had a good chance of success?)

-Andrew

[Kevin_Lowe]

I got into a debate with a guy about this a few days after 9/11. Basically it appears that people think knives/sharp things only hurt people by stabbing them, and that arteries are really deep in the body.

Slashing is way more dangerous than stabbing and there are a number of arteries close to the skin that even fairly shallow slashes can cut.

Just look at the number of suicides by slashing the wrists. And that's slower than the artery in the neck.

The thing is that unless that slash hits the neck, the inside of the arm or the inside of the thigh, with a little stanley knife it's not going to be deep enough to make you bleed to death any time soon. Slashing movements are also easier to intercept, and harder to execute if someone's right on top of you.

There's a reason every dodgy self defence course and McDojo martial art teaches people to defend against swinging attacks and not against jabs. Swinging attacks have further to go and can be usefully blocked with a wide margin for error. A jab, especially one with a knife, covers a short distance very fast and has to be intercepted very precisely, which means in practise that almost nobody can do so.

I'm not running down the box cutter as an advantageous thing to have in your hand. It turns a touch into a slash, which is a powerful thing. It's still not as nasty as a stabbing blade though. My humble opinion.

[Jeff Corey]

But what about pointed sticks?

[Regnad Kcin]

Shut up!

[Johnny Pixels]

Release the tiger!













Unfortunately, this isn't dissimilar to the Loosers way of thinking...

[Bikewer]

Back when I was a medic in the army (1960s) we used to see a lot of razor cuts because straight razors were readily available and preferred by certain ethnic groups.
These attacks produced nasty-looking long slashes which were not particularly debilitating. Very little blood, and usually the injured party would walk into the dispensary on his own power.

On the other hand, I once witnessed a farmer slaughtering a calf with his little "stockman's" knife. (about a 2" blade) he lifted the critter's ear, and severed the carotid artery. The calf dropped like it had been shot.

So, it's a matter of technique; you have to know where and how to cut.

Those of us familiar with bladed weapon combat techniques know that the thrust is considered to be the killing blow; slashes are for disabling/disarming/creating openings.
However, in this scenario, we are not talking about knife combat. We are talking about a group of terrorists (who were also claiming to have a bomb, as I recall) grabbing a stewardess and probably summarily cutting her throat from behind to show the rest of the passengers what dreadful guys they were.
The vast majority of people have litte regard for combat, and would be unlikely to attack someone armed with any kind of bladed weapon, except as a last resort.
And that's where the hijackers had the advantage; no one (until the last plane) had any notion this would be anything other than a "routine" hijacking.
"Take us to Cuba!" or somesuch.
It was only when the actual purposes of the hijackers became apparent that resistance became an attractive alternative.

I'm a police officer, extensively trained in all manner "defensive tactics", and I would never consider going unarmed against a blade unless there was no other alternative.

[kevin]

The thing is that unless that slash hits the neck, the inside of the arm or the inside of the thigh, with a little stanley knife it's not going to be deep enough to make you bleed to death any time soon. Slashing movements are also easier to intercept, and harder to execute if someone's right on top of you.

if they picked the weapon soley on it's ability to kill then I would agree with you, however they also had to get them past security. Standard knives are fairly obvious on x-rays. Retracted box cutters not so much.

I think the fact that one plane did manage to defend itself is a good indicator that you're right about them not being great weapons. However I was just trying to point out that you CAN kill with them. Generally works best in manners of surprise, which they had.

[rjh01]

They aren't as deadly as some people here seem to be making out, because they can't stab. Unless they cut a major blood vessel near the surface, such as the ones in your neck, the wounds are superficial. I'd much rather face a box cutter than a knife if my life was on the line.

I have just experimented with a Stanley knife. It can stab easy. Will penetrate 1 - 2 inches. Once in the attacker will have two choices - withdraw it or slash causing massive wounds. Stanley knifes are BLOODY SHARP (literally).

[TheChadd]

If you look into assasin handbooks (those of al-quidea and the old CIA one), you will find that weapons such as these are favoured as #2 on their list of best weapons. Being caught with a kitchen knife or a utility knife is much more explainable than a gun, they're also quite deadly in the hands of someone with proper anatomical knowledge :)

[kieran]

(4) He leaves himself open for some not-too-tightly-wrapped person who disagrees with him to come up brandishing a boxcutter and announce, "Laugh at this, sucker!" The resulting photos of Avery in soiled pants, on his knees begging for mercy, would probably stop the "truth" movement in its tracks.
I'm seeing a scene from Mississippi Burning, in which the investigators start to play dirty and abduct one of the suspects, get a black FBI agent to pretend to be an equal rights extremist, and threaten to cut the suspect's genitals off ...

I just love that film.

[maccy]

Bumping this excellent thread for any fence-sitters who are dropping by.

Also, adding my own knife experience. I was held up by a boy (couldn't been older tha 13 or 14) with a pretty small penknife. He'd asked me for 20p for the phone and then showed me his knife and asked "for the rest". I gave him the 30p or so I had in my pocket and he ran off. Admitedly I'd been up early that morning working and was a bit dazed but I honestly had neither the time nor the exerience to assess the danger of the situation. As the cliche goes "it all happened so quickly".

Really you can't know for sure what you're going to do in these situations until you are in them.

[uk_dave]

Yeah well.... Leeds... you know...'nuff said. :duck:

[maccy]

Yeah well.... Leeds... you know...'nuff said. :duck:

Actually it was in London, quite close to The Valley football ground...

[uk_dave]

Actually it was in London, quite close to The Valley football ground...


Well...London...you know...'nuff said

:cool:

[defaultdotxbe]

not sure if anyone mentioned it, but the cutter they found in the apartment of one of th ehijackers (or maybe it was moussaui) was one of those break-away blade types, like this:

http://www.in2art.com/images/products/art-supply-20247006.jpg

where you can actually extend the blade to several inches, not sure if these kinds were used in the hijacking, but its a point to consider

[Bell]

From the Moussaoui trial evidence:

* Can of red pepper spray from luggage recovered at Logan Airport, Boston, Massachusetts (http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/BS01143-1.jpg)
* Can of red pepper spray from luggage recovered at Logan Airport, Boston, Massachusetts (http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/BS01143-2.jpg)
* One box cutter (http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/FO08301-1.jpg)
* Photo of exhibit MN00501 (http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/MN00501P-1.jpg)
* 2 Leatherman Tools recovered from the Residence Inn (http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/MN00504P-2.jpg)

Sorce: http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/

[fuelair]

A lot of them don't believe that the phone calls made by passengers on that flight are real. Yes, they also dance on the graves of those heroic people that had a chance to fight back and took it.

That, by the by is a perfect proof that there are no ghosts - cause if there were , those little asukers would never sleep for fear of the spirits.:mad:

[Muckar-duva]

Still, I've had my arm cut so badly by a shiny new boxcutter (blade extended) that I needed 10 stitches. I still haven't regained full "feeling" in the rest of my arm (and this was 8 years ago), so there was apparently some damage done there.

Conclusion: I wouldn't have been that cocky if someone started wielding a boxcutter. I think I'd run if it was a sturdier utility knife.

[gumboot]

It's worth noting (I'm sure someone has) that "boxcutters" were only mentioned in one call.

In other calls they said "knives".

-Gumboot

[anor277]

This thread reminds me of Graham Greene's classic novel, Brighton Rock, about the razor gangs. Pinky and co. used the old style barber's cut-throat razors - as sharp and as potentially dangerous as a box cutter. I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone wielding either weapon.

[fuelair]

This thread reminds me of Graham Greene's classic novel, Brighton Rock, about the razor gangs. Pinky and co. used the old style barber's cut-throat razors - as sharp and as potentially dangerous as a box cutter. I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone wielding either weapon.
I would - if 21 feet away, and .357 in my hand already.:)

[njslim]

The passenger stabbed on AA11 was Daniel Lewin , an Israeli-American
computer company founder. Lewin was a veteran of Israeli Army Special
Forces (Sayeret Matkal) was stabbed from behind by hijacker Satam Sequami
seated directly behind him. Still think "boxcutters" aren't lethal. Several
knives were recovered from wreckage of Flight 93, included is knife
concealed in cigarette lighter and "Leatherman" tool.

[Redtail]

I've been in a fight with a guy who had a Utility knife and I can attest that if they hit the right area Blood will flow and it will hurt. Odds are Avery and Co. have never been in a fight with someone who seriously wanted to hurt them.

[Axiom_Blade]

I've been in a fight with a guy who had a Utility knife and I can attest that if they hit the right area Blood will flow and it will hurt. Odds are Avery and Co. have never been in a fight with someone who seriously wanted to hurt them.

With their personalities, I find that hard to believe.

[Muckar-duva]

It's worth noting (I'm sure someone has) that "boxcutters" were only mentioned in one call.

In other calls they said "knives".

-Gumboot

Flight 77 is, if I revall Popular Mechanics correctly, the only plane where those were used- and they were used in combination with other knives.