PJ Star: Law could keep Bush off (Illinois) ballot

[shanek]

http://www.pjstar.com/news/topnews/g152154a.html

In November 2004, millions of people will go to the polls to vote for the next U.S. president. But if the Libertarian Party has its way, President George W. Bush may not be a choice for Illinois voters.

The Libertarian Party is challenging an effort by the Republican National Committee to bend a state election law that requires presidential candidates to be certified as nominees more than 67 days before a general election.

The Republican Party will nominate their candidate during its national convention Sept. 3, 2004, 61 days before the Nov. 2 general election. That candidate most likely will be Bush, who filed re-election papers last week and is not expected to face any significant challenges.

The Republican National Committee has asked the State Board of Elections to grant an exception to the law to allow their candidate to be "recertified" on the 60th day before the general election. The Libertarian Party believes that the State Board of Elections does not have the authority to grant an exception, only the power to recommend that the General Assembly change the law.

Trigg said the situation further illustrates the lack of equity in state election laws. For example, Trigg said, the Libertarian Party must accumulate 25,000 valid petition signatures to get a presidential candidate on the ballot, whereas Republicans and Democrats need only to collect 5,000 signatures.

Amazing how draconian the Republicans are about election laws when they keep Libertarians off (winess the fiasco in NC recently with the Electoral Fairness Act) but turn the tables and all of a sudden they want exceptions to the law!

So, why should the law be bent or changed to benefit Republicans but not Libertarians?

[michaellee]

First, a brief personal background:
Male, age 41, registered Libertarian since 1980.

Second, a direct response:
Any true advocate of liberty, as defined by the oft ignored scribblings some fortunately still call the law of the land, the Constitution of the United States, and regardless of party afilliation, cannot honestly provide ONE reason to change or "bend" the election law in this case or in any case.

Third, an un-American, more typical response (i.e. media, liberal, republican, democrat, schoolteacher, lawyer, accountant etc.):

"Hey, who cares what any member other than from the Republican or Democratic party says about anything. Specifically the Constitution or Law or our great 'Democracy'. We control everything, write laws that apply to everyone but us, except when convenient, and those wackos cannot win an election anyway, so why vote or care about anything they say or do."

Fourth, one American's response to the above Third response:

The US is not a democracy

I still have the right to bear arms

I, and most Libertarian principled thinkers, are more patriotic and truly American than most Republicans or Democrats could or would ever know

Continue to circumvent the "laws" written by yourselves and our founding fathers, and those truly "free" in this country will rise up to finally be recognized and the circumventers will fall. (And God will have nothing to do with it)

So, I rambled a bit, but TOUGH.

I know what kind of response, if any, will be posted to this. So, first, before posting, the Constitution of the United States can be
read, researched, or reviewed at many Web sites (probably not found in school history texts anymore). It takes an average reader no more than 20-30 minutes to read it in its entirety. And it won't bite you.

[shanek]

Originally posted by michaellee
First, a brief personal background:
Male, age 41, registered Libertarian since 1980.

Cool! And welcome to the forum!

I know what kind of response, if any, will be posted to this. So, first, before posting, the Constitution of the United States can be read, researched, or reviewed at many Web sites (probably not found in school history texts anymore). It takes an average reader no more than 20-30 minutes to read it in its entirety. And it won't bite you.

I've been trying for years, Michael. There are people here who simply won't do that. They'll blather on and on and on about "interpretation" and how I'm just insisting that "my interpretation" is correct without evidence, no matter how much the plain language of the Constitution or the writings of those who wrote it show otherwise.

But it is nice to have one more good one in the fight. Welcome!

[specious_reasons]

If they succeed, I'll vote Libertarian in 2004*, just to say, "job well done" :)

michaellee, I couldn't parse your second response. It's probably just me, though.

*...at least for the Presidency. I care too much about local elections to vote for those wacky Libertarians. :)

[Victor Danilchenko]

michaellee

Third, an un-American, more typical response (i.e. media, liberal, republican, democrat, schoolteacher, lawyer, accountant etc.):

"Hey, who cares what any member other than from the Republican or Democratic party says about anything. Specifically the Constitution or Law or our great 'Democracy'. We control everything, write laws that apply to everyone but us, except when convenient, and those wackos cannot win an election anyway, so why vote or care about anything they say or do."And of course there is no demonizing going on here, oh no...

The US is not a democracyyes, it is. US is a representative democracy (as opposed to ancient greek-style direct democracy, which is probably what you are thinking about). Furthermore, both a direct and a representative democracy can and should be constitutional. There is nothing un-democratic about being a constitutional representative democracy. It's still rule of the numbers, the only question is how big the numbers have to be (to amend the Constitution, in US case).

I still have the right to bear armsYou won't if the Constitution gets amended, and it can get amended by sufficient number of votes and states.

I, and most Libertarian principled thinkers, are more patriotic and truly American than most Republicans or Democrats could or would ever know<cue chorus "God bless america"> I am sure you are as superhumanly patriotic as superman was strong, and deeply proud of it. :rolleyes:

Continue to circumvent the "laws" written by yourselves and our founding fathers, and those truly "free" in this country will rise up to finally be recognized and the circumventers will fall. (And God will have nothing to do with it)<shrug> I won't hold my breath.

I know what kind of response, if any, will be posted to this. So, first, before posting, the Constitution of the United States can be
read, researched, or reviewed at many Web sites (probably not found in school history texts anymore). It takes an average reader no more than 20-30 minutes to read it in its entirety.Indeed. Now to understand it takes a bit longer -- and it takes not merely time but also naive stupid arrogance to assume that your understanding is One True Meaning of the Constitution.

[hgc]

I, and most Libertarian principled thinkers, are more patriotic and truly American than most Republicans or Democrats could or would ever know
Please elaborate on this, super-duper patriot. I propose that you define what is meant by "patriotic" and "true" Americanism, and then explain how you know Libertarians possess more of these qualities. Come on, put some meaning behind your chest-thumping.

[Thanz]

First, let me say that the kind of election law tom foolery described here is terrible. I see no reason why Illinois needs to accomodate a convention that hasn't happened yet. If the convention is too late, move the convention. Also, I see no reason why the number of signatures should be different. If the high signature count is to keep out the "wackos" (a highly dubious goal in my opinion), I see no reason why it should not apply to the 2 main parties. They should have no problem getting the signatures.

Having said that, and now I go a little off topic.....


Originally posted by michaellee

I, and most Libertarian principled thinkers, are more patriotic and truly American than most Republicans or Democrats could or would ever know

This kind of statement really bugs me, and I'm not even American. How is one person more "truly American" than another? You have to have libertarian political views to be "truly American"? What a load of manure....

[Ladewig]

Given that the law has been on the books for years, I see no reason to provide an exemption. Actions have consequences and if the Republicans want to wrap themselves in the flag by having their convention in NYC as close to September 11th as possible, then they should accept the consequences without complaining.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by hgc

Please elaborate on this, super-duper patriot. I propose that you define what is meant by "patriotic" and "true" Americanism, and then explain how you know Libertarians possess more of these qualities. Come on, put some meaning behind your chest-thumping.


I concur. A socialist can be just as patriotic as a libertarian. Sure this country was founded on libertarian values _but_ the constitution is a living document which makes those values negotiable.

For what its worth, I deplore socialism. But I recognize that wanting to turn America into a nanny state is no less patriotic than wanting it to adhere to its original principles if it is done for love of country.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
It's still rule of the numbers, the only question is how big the numbers have to be
And those numbers have a $ in front of them. :(

[Victor Danilchenko]

corplinx

I concur. A socialist can be just as patriotic as a libertarian. Sure this country was founded on libertarian valuesNo, it wasn't. it was founded on decentralized governance values -- the powers denied to federal government were not denied to any lower government. local governments could and did institute draconian laws abridging various rights and freedoms -- only the fed couldn't do so. I see nothing libertarian about it.

What has happened over the years is not that the country grew less libertarian, but that the federal government more and more assumed the powers of state governments. The change was merely lateral, from one power-holder to another power-holder -- it was not a chnage in the nature of power being held.

For what its worth, I deplore socialism. But I recognize that wanting to turn America into a nanny state is no less patriotic than wanting it to adhere to its original principles if it is done for love of country.Oh come on, dude, the sort of attitude you espouse requires one to accept their own fallibility, and to realize the difference between facts and opinions! You can't honestly expect that of the glorious property rights brigade!

[Victor Danilchenko]

WildCat

And those numbers have a $ in front of them. :(Unfortunately so. Nonetheless, US constitutional representative democracy is not in any way immune to 'rule of the mob', the ignoramuses' cries of intellectually virginal outrage notwithstanding; and so the 'US is not a democracy' sneering proves little more than the sneerer's ignorance.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
And of course there is no demonizing going on here, oh no...

[...]

You won't if the Constitution gets amended, and it can get amended by sufficient number of votes and states.

<cue chorus "God bless america"> I am sure you are as superhumanly patriotic as superman was strong, and deeply proud of it. :rolleyes:

<shrug> I won't hold my breath.

Indeed. Now to understand it takes a bit longer -- and it takes not merely time but also naive stupid arrogance to assume that your understanding is One True Meaning of the Constitution.

Michael, Victor. Victor, Michael.

[shanek]

Originally posted by hgc
Please elaborate on this, super-duper patriot. I propose that you define what is meant by "patriotic" and "true" Americanism, and then explain how you know Libertarians possess more of these qualities. Come on, put some meaning behind your chest-thumping.

It's very simple. A patriot loves America. Loving America, he loves what America stands for. And since America and her Constitution stand for liberty and justice for all, then patriots love liberty and justice for all. And since the Libertarian party is the only political party that loves liberty and justice of all kinds, then the Libertarians are, by definition, the most patriotic.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Thanz
First, let me say that the kind of election law tom foolery described here is terrible. I see no reason why Illinois needs to accomodate a convention that hasn't happened yet. If the convention is too late, move the convention. Also, I see no reason why the number of signatures should be different. If the high signature count is to keep out the "wackos" (a highly dubious goal in my opinion), I see no reason why it should not apply to the 2 main parties.

Good points. Of course, it doesn't work that way, as the failure of the NC EFA shows. Personally, I'd love to see the Democrats and Republicans have to go out and petition just like we do...

[shanek]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
No, it wasn't. it was founded on decentralized governance values -- the powers denied to federal government were not denied to any lower government. local governments could and did institute draconian laws abridging various rights and freedoms -- only the fed couldn't do so.

Not so. Read the 10th Amendment. The Constitution did place restrictions on the states; the difference is that the Constitution has to expressly forbid the States from having a power, whereas with the Federal government any power not enumerated is forbidden. So the states, for example, cannot ban firearms because of the Second Amendment says that the right is reserved expressly to the people. But they could, OTOH, institute a state religion (well, until the 14th Amendment at least) because the 1st Amendment only applies to Congress.

[PogoPedant]

(...)more patriotic and truly American than most(...)
Excuse a simple conservative socialist, but what is a non-true American, and in what ways is he different from a non-true scotsman?
As other people have asked: What does it mean to be patriotic?
Furthermore: How would you know that what you belive to be the values of your country is in fact the actual values represented by your country? How can a country, composed of a large number of autonomous humans, ever hope to represent a set of values?

[Krandal]

Shanek

It's very simple. A patriot loves America. Loving America, he loves what America stands for. And since America and her Constitution stand for liberty and justice for all, then patriots love liberty and justice for all. And since the Libertarian party is the only political party that loves liberty and justice of all kinds, then the Libertarians are, by definition, the most patriotic.

Is this supposed to be some bad joke? What political party couldn't make these exact same claims with equal (meaning zero) validity?

[shanek]

Originally posted by Krandal
Is this supposed to be some bad joke?

No, I was just explaining his point of view as I saw it. Calm down.

Personally, I agree with John Perry Barlow: The most un-American thing you can do is call someone else un-American.

[michaellee]

Excuse the late response time as I just returned from a business trip, read all messages in this thread, and...

Thank you Shanek, Victor, hgc, Thanz, PogoPendant, Krandal and any others if I missed you for your responses.

I will respond to all questions of me shortly, as I am unpacking etc. and atrophy set in about 400 miles ago.....

michaellee

[michaellee]

Several of the responses to my initial post concerned the following statement...

quote
--------------------------------------------------
I, and most Libertarian principled thinkers, are more patriotic and truly American than most Republicans or Democrats could or would ever know
--------------------------------------------------

Specifically, the replies concerned the usage of; "Libertarian..thinker", "more patriotic", and "truly American".

Shanek's reply was simple- and to the point and I agree with it, but did not specifically address the definition of terms as requested nor fully explain my position.
I hope this will help clear up my previous statement's meaning.

Definitions
---------------------------------
"Libertarian principled thinkers"
A simple, personal definition:

Belief that the United States of America should be governed, and its citizens' freedoms, rights, and protections provided as in the
Constitution, with the main focus being a limited government role and restoration of the idea of individual responsibility.

In other words, as a "Libertarian principled thinker" and American citizen, I believe in being loyal to and devoted to the welfare of the United States and its supporting authority, the US Constitution.

If anyone wishes or needs to obtain specific Libertarian issue stances, I can post them or give links to the necessary resources upon request.

"more patriotic"

also provided are definitions of "patriot" and "patriotism".

---------------------------------
more

\More\, adv.

(b) With an adjective or adverb (instead of the suffix -er) to form the comparative degree**; as, more durable; more active; more sweetly.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
patriot

\Pa"tri*ot\, n. [F. patriote; cf. Sp. patriota, It. patriotto; all fr. Gr. ? a fellow-countryman, fr. ? established by forefathers, fr. ? father. See

Father.] One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests. --Bp. Hall.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pa·tri·ot
n.
One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.

[French patriote, from Old French, compatriot, from Late Latin patrita, from Greek patrits, from patrios, of one's fathers, from patr, patr-,

father. See pter- in Indo-European Roots.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
patriotism

\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot;

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
patriotic

\Pa`tri*ot"ic\, a. [Cf. F. patriotique, Gr. ? belonging to a fellow-countryman.] Inspired by patriotism; actuated by love of one's country;

zealously and unselfishly devoted to the service of one's country; as, a patriotic statesman, vigilance.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Key points:
word origin- "established by forefathers" and "of ones fathers"

Interpreting the above definitions, I come up with:

"patriotic" - Love of, devotion to, and support of the US, its welfare, and its laws as prescribed by the founding fathers.

"more patriotic" - in context, comparing to Democrats and Republicans, my statement's accuracy can only be based comparatively to the "patriotic" actions or lack of actions by members of the Democrat and Republican parties.

Both the Democrat and Republican parties, its members and elected officials of every administration in office in the last 25+ years, including the current platforms of the Republicans in office, and the current platform of every known Democrat seeking election to the presidency in 2004, disregard/violate the United States Constitution. Fact: Continued Federal control of our country's education system. (This is simply one instance, for those who do not believe this to be in disregard/violation, see The US Constitution, Amendment X).

Libertarians believe the Federal Government has no right nor authority to control the educational system as they do now.
Libertarians believe the Feds role to be that as prescribed in the Constitution, which in this case should be none.
This Libertarian position fits the above definition of "patriotic".

The Democrat and Republican position on the Fed's role in education is in contradiction to the Constitution.
This Dem and Rep position does not fit the above definition of "patriotic".

Which of the above positions more fits the definition?
I believe: the Libertarian position

Conclusion:

Using the word "more" (comparitive degree, see above) the statement: "Most Libertarian principled thinkers are more patriotic...than most Democrats or Republicans...."
Is this statement TRUE or FALSE?
I believe TRUE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"truly American"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
truly

adv 1: in accordance with truth or fact or reality; "she was now truly American";

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
---------------------------------
American

\A*mer"i*can\, n. A native of America; -- originally applied to the aboriginal inhabitants, but now applied to the descendants of Europeans born in America, and especially to the citizens of the United States.

The name American must always exalt the pride of patriotism. --Washington

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
---------------------------------
I have also included the definition for "citizen", as it is an important inclusion in the definition for "American".

citizen
n.
A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection of a state or nation.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company
---------------------------------

I interpret an "American" to be "a citizen of the United States, owing loyalty to the US for the rights and priveleges granted by laws of the US.

Test:

Citizen A- Democrat or Republican with same belief as in previous position, above.
Belief - Citizen A does not demonstrate loyalty to the US and its laws, in regards to stance on Feds role in education.
Citizen B - Libertarian with same belief as above.
Belief - Citizen B demonstrates loyalty to the US and its laws, in regards to stance on Feds role in education.

Fact:
Citizen A does not act in accordance with the truth, fact or reality that the Democrat and Republican positions are not loyal to the laws of the US.

Citizen B does act in accordance with the truth, fact or reality that the Libertarian position is a loyal one to the laws of the US.

Conclusion:

"Libertarian principled thinkers are more......truly American than most Republicans or Democrats........."

Is this statement TRUE or FALSE?

I believe TRUE.
---------------------------------
Regarding the "US is not a Democracy" reply and PogoPendant's questions, I will reply later.

All of the above definitions and examples were results of first query searches for each word at Dictionary.com.

Goodnight for now,

michaellee