Israeli Occupation Forces target Peace Activists in the Occupied Territories

[AN@S]

We used daily to hear that many innocents Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli soldiers, due to unconvincing reasons !!!
They say that those civilians are fighting them, shooting them, and that Israeli army have the right to repel them !!!!

Well, let's believe in this, and that Israeli aren't criminals, but they defend themselves, but what did the American & European peace activists done, in order to be killed severity by Israeli army ???

How do Israeli alleges that they want peace, and that they aren't murders while they are Impudently killing peace activists
!!!!!!
American or Europeans peace activist comes to Palestine to support Palestinian people, and to feel their pain and sadness, so what's wrong they made to be killed by Israeli, while he is supporting peace ????

One of those peace activist was Rachel Corrie, we all cried when we heard about her, me, all American noblemen, and every peace lover all over the world..
Rachel Corrie, who had crushed by Sharon's bulldozer till death !!!!
I liked to post her story here, in an American forum, because as I heard that Rachel's story had blacked out by American mass media, which droved by Zionist lobby in the USA

http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org/pictures/corrie.gif
Rachel Corrie, 23,
bulldozed to death by Israeli Forces

On 16 March 2003 in Rafah, occupied Gaza, 23-year-old American peace activist Rachel Corrie from Olympia, Washington, was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer driver. Rachel was in Gaza opposing the bulldozing of a Palestinian home as a volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement.

Rachel and seven other ISM activists were in the Hi Es Salam area of Rafah, Gaza, trying to prevent the razing of Palestinian land and property. Present were two Israeli occupation army bulldozers and a tank. For a period of two hours, the activists played 'cat and mouse', attempting to prevent the illegal demolitions by physically blocking the passage of the two bulldozers.

"Rachel Corey [sic], 23 years old from the state of Washington, was killed while she was trying to prevent Israeli army bulldozers from destroying a Palestinian home. Other foreigners who were with her said the driver of the bulldozer was aware that Rachel was there, and continued to destroy the house. Initially he dropped sand and other heavy debris on her, then the bulldozer pushed her to the ground where it proceeded to drive over her, fracturing both of her arms, legs and skull. She was transferred to hospital, where she later died. Another foreigner was also injured in the attack and has been hospitalized - at this stage his nationality is unknown." (15 March 2003)


A press release from the International Solidarity Movement stated that:
"Rachel had been staying in Palestinian homes threatened with illegal demolition, and today Rachel was standing with other non-violent international activists in front of a home scheduled for illegal demolition. According to witnesses, Rachel was run over twice by the Israeli military bulldozer in its process of demolishing the Palestinian home. Witnesses say that Rachel was clearly visible to the bulldozer driver, and was doing nothing to provoke an attack." (15 March 2003)



-Picture taken between 3:00-4:00PM on 16 March 2003, Rafah, Occupied Gaza. A clearly marked Rachel Corrie, holding a megaphone, confronts the driver of one of two Israeli bulldozers in the area that were attempting to demolish a Palestinian homes. She was confronting the bulldozer in order to disrupt its work, and prevent it from threatening any homes:
http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/rach.jpg

-Picture taken at 4:45PM on 16 March 2003, Rafah, Occupied Gaza. Other peace activists tend to Rachel after she was fatally injured by the driver of the Israeli bulldozer (in background). This photo was taken seconds after the bulldozer driver dragged his blade over her for the second time while reversingback over her body. He lifted the blade as seen in the photo only after he had dragged it back over Rachel's body. This image clearly shows that had he lifted his blade at any time he may have avoided killing her, as the bottom section of the bulldozer is raised off the ground:
http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/rach1.jpg

-Picture taken at 4:47PM on 16 March 2003, Rafah, Occupied Gaza. Rachel Corrie lies on the ground fatally injured by the Israeli bulldozer driver. Rachel's fellow activists have dug her a little out of the sand and are trying to keep her neck straight due to spinal injury:
http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/rach3.jpg

-Rachel in Najjar hostpital, Rafah, Occupied Gaza. Rachel arrived in the emergency room at 5:05PM and doctors scrambled to save her. By 5:20PM, she was gone. Ha'aretz newspaper reported that Dr. Ali Musa, a doctor at Al-Najjar, stated that the cause of death was "skull and chest fractures":
http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/rach4.jpg


A later report from ISM Media Coordinator Michael Shaik in Beit Sahour offered more details about the events:
"The confrontation between the ISM and the Israeli Army had been under way for two hours when Rachel was run over. Rachel and the other activists had clearly identified themselves as unarmed international peace activists throughout the confrontation.

The Israeli Army are attempting to dishonour her memory by claiming that Rachel was killed accidentally when she ran in front of the bulldozer. Eye-witnesses to the murder insist that this is totally untrue. Rachel was sitting in the path of the bulldozer as it advanced towards her. When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside she climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it wearing a fluorescent jacket to look directly at the driver who kept on advancing. The bulldozer continued to advance so that she was pulled under the pile of dirt and rubble. After she had disappeared from view the driver kept advancing until the bulldozer was completely on top of her. The driver did not lift the bulldozer blade and so she was crushed beneath it. Then the driver backed off and the seven other ISM activists taking part in the action rushed to dig out her body. An ambulance rushed her to A-Najar hospital where she died."

http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/rachmain.jpg

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

[Skeptic]

But, AN@S, you are a Syrian. That means that you should be very comfortable with occupation (like that of Lebanon by Syria) and with targeting activists (like killing and torturing everybody in Syria who disagrees with his highness, Bashar Assad.) Syria criticizing israel for human right abuses... talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Now, about "occupited territory". As far as you are concerned, ALL of israel is "occupied" territory, and "peace" will only occur when the "occupation ends"--that is, israel is wiped off the map. Your goal, to put it simply, is the same as Hitler's: the destruction of the jewish state and the genocide of the jews (which also explains, by the way, why Syria harbored and protected many nazi war criminals.)

All that changes is the excuse: for Hitler, this was necessary because jews were genetically inferior; for you, it's a fitting punishment for the "occupation of palestine" or its "violation of civil rights" (as opposed to Syria, that wonderful protector of civil rights...) But the goal is the same: Itbah' Al-yahood (butcher the jews.)

You are, like your glorious leader Assad, essentially a would-be murderer. To take seriously moral criticism from you about the "bad behavior" of your would-be victims, is like taking seriously criticism from Ted Bundy about the loose morals of young women these days.

The point of your criticism is not to chastize israel, or make it change its behavior; it's simply to justify your lust for jewish blood by convincing yourself that "they deserve it" for "targeting peace activists" (or whatever the excuse du jour is.)

[c0rbin]

peace lover all over the world..

Peace lover my gluteous maximus.

Put down the C4 and pick up Ghandi.

In this day of mass media one has no excuse other than cowardice and ignorance.



:mad: :mad:

[hisham]

Israel's New Anti-Activist Strategy

The past several weeks have seen the Israeli military taking an increasingly hard-line new tack towards international anti-occupation activists in Gaza - so much so that those attempting to act as "human shields" have lost their special ability to, well, shield.
full story (http://www.alternatives.ca/article663.html)

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by AN@S

I liked to post her story here, in an American forum, because as I heard that Rachel's story had blacked out by American mass media, which droved by Zionist lobby in the USA


You heard incorrectly, AN@S. Rachel's story was well covered here.

Even Fox News (http://search.foxnews.com/_1_OMGU9R02NI8ON__info.foxnws/dog/results?otmpl=dog/webresults.htm&qkw=Corrie&qcat=sitesearch&top=1&ver=8708&nextPageNum=1&fastSearch=) covered it.

MattJ

[max]

The story was well covered in the UK too. I have no sympathy for the girl, one cannot and should not mess about or challenge the military. How did she think she could stop a bulldozer???

[Segnosaur]

Sooo many things wrong with this article...

First of all, the title:

Where is the proof that the Israelis are 'targeting' peace activists? Are you implying thta Israel would not have run over the person had they been a palestinian?

Being 'foreign' does not mean you can do anything. It does not give a person the right to violate the laws of the area that you are in, it does not entitle you to any special consideration from the military or other agencies.

Secondly, you point out that the Israelis were going to illegally destroy a home... That is incorrect. First of all, many 'homes' in the area are used for smuggling purposes, others are used for sniper attacks. (I guess you don't hear much of that, do you...) Of course, the bulldozer wasn't even trying to destroy a house, but that's beside the point...

Thirdly, you suggest that the story was not covered here because of Zionist control of the media. Nobody here believes in Zionist control; people who think the world is controled by Jews are rightly assumed to be woo-woos. And the story WAS covered; perhaps we didn't pay too much attention to it because we recognize it for what it was: A stupid woman who puts herself in harms way to protect people who promoted violence.

By the way, that International Solidarity Movement, in case you didn't hear, is trying to distance itself from a couple of suicide bombers who were associated with their group. Some "Peace" movement....

And you show all these "nice" images of Corrie in order to portray her as some "nice" girl who was crushed. I prefer this image of her, showing how she was willing to destroy the flag of her own country (that same flag that was placed on her coffin by the way...)

[headscratcher4]

I'll say one thing for this girl -- and it is a lesson missed by our friends in Syria and other Arab nations -- right or wrong she put her beliefs/body on the line and tried to stop a bulldozer. She suffered for her act, but she was in some way a true peace activist...the only one she endangered by her action was her self.

She didn't pretend that blowing herself up and taking innocent people with her is an act of herosim. She didn't walk into a crowded shopping mall and strike at unknown civilians and claim it as an act of holy martyrdom.

She didn't build bombs.

She didn't pretend that a gun and endless revenge is the answer to the problems.

I may not agree with her perception of what is right and wrong in the Middle east, I may think that her act was one of folly, but she, at least seems to have been true to her folly -- I find it facinating that our friends from Syria can lament not only the distruction of this life and the pro-palestinian stand this young woman took, and almost in the same breath praise the cowards that walk into shopping malls and blow themselves up hoping to kill as many innocent people as possible.

I suggest to our friends in Syria that if Palestinians were sitting down in front of tanks and bulldozers and engaging in individual and group acts of peaceful civil disobediance and defiance that threatened only the individual engaged in the act -- a'la Ghandi or Martin Luther King -- Israel would tremble and it's resolve would be severely tested.

Alas, the suicide bomber just steadies the resolve of the alleged "oppressor" and provides the alleged oppressor with an excuse for brutal retribution.

In the end, her death is meaningless folly because every suicide bomber makes it so and every new death -- both suicide bomber and their victems -- makes her sacrifice more and more meaningless. Why? Because it doesn't confront the violence or oppression being decried, it only perpetuates it and gives meaning and justification to reactive revenge and retribution. In short, it just moves the cycle of death and repression forward -- and if I understand it correctly, this woman sacrificed herself to end that cycle.

In short, if you want to really honor this woman, see the sacrifice she made and learn from both her courage and her folly. Every bomber dishonors her act and memory. Though, I am afraid few in the Arab world are truely strong enough or courageous enough to do so.

[c0rbin]

Headscratcher, thanks for more eloquently saying what I could only express with ":mad: :mad: "

--c0rbin

[max]

Blimey Headscratcher, that is fantastic! Wish I was that clever

[AN@S]

Originally posted by Skeptic
[B]
But, AN@S, you are a Syrian. That means that you should be very comfortable with occupation (like that of Lebanon by Syria)

There’s no occupation of Lebanon by Syria, there are some Syrian forces in Lebanon, and this is not an occupation. For example there are American soldiers in Qatar, but we can’t say that America occupies Qatar; occupation is a totally different thing...

and with targeting activists (like killing and torturing everybody in Syria who disagrees with his highness, Bashar Assad.)
That’s wrong... Proof?? Link??

by the way, why Syria harbored and protected many nazi war criminals
Ooops !!! This is the last thing I ever expected to hear about Syria?? Syria harbored and protected Nazi war criminals?? I think everyone in this forum need evidence, not only me
By the way I think that the Nazi war criminals are Angels compared with Israeli war criminals.

[AN@S]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


You heard incorrectly, AN@S. Rachel's story was well covered here.

Even Fox News (http://search.foxnews.com/_1_OMGU9R02NI8ON__info.foxnws/dog/results?otmpl=dog/webresults.htm&qkw=Corrie&qcat=sitesearch&top=1&ver=8708&nextPageNum=1&fastSearch=) covered it.

MattJ

My friend, I meant that Rachel’s story not well covered, imagine that the Palestinians has killed an American, I think that the situation will be totally different...

[Doubt]

Once again Headscratcher says what many of us have trouble finding the words.

[burn out mode]
Dude, you should be in the government or somethn!
[/burn out mode]
;)

I can think of one thing to add, but not with the same ability.

It is not a coincidence that those who cannot grasp the power of civil disobedience are also those that cannot grasp why they are so often “humiliated” by the Israelis.

No act of violence freed India from Britain. Civil disobedience was the tool used to drive the British out.
No act of violence pushed the civil rights agenda into law in the United States. Civil disobedience was the tactic used to change this land.
No act of violence has resolved the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians. What then, is the solution?

[Monketey Ghost]

I've often wondered what would happen should the Palestinians pick up the mantle of Mohandas Ghandi, and engage in civil disobedience. Many would possibly be killed, yes; just as many are being killed now.

But such a group action would gain the world's attention, and focus it on the issue in a positive manner.

It is my belief that there is a subculture of suicide bombers in Palestine that will not be subdued, and that it is the intention of such people to be human bombs out of some twisted quixotic idea of how to deal with the problem.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Doubt

No act of violence has resolved the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians. What then, is the solution?
As the song says...

"Lets pave Palestine, and put in a parking lot."

(Or am I remembering the lyrics correctly?)

[renata]

Originally posted by AN@S


My friend, I meant that Rachel’s story not well covered, imagine that the Palestinians has killed an American, I think that the situation will be totally different...


Palestinians have killed many, many Americans. They were Jewish, so maybe it does not count. Here is a partial list of recent victims.

On March 5 2003, Abigail Litle, 14, was killed in a Palestinian suicide bombing attack on a bus in the northern Israeli city of Haifa. Last July, five Americans died in a bombing at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

A thriteen year old boy, named Koby Mandell, a U.S. citizen, was stoned to death on May 8, 2001.

June 19, 2002, Jerusalem - Gila Sara Kessler, 19, suicide boming

Jun 18, 2002, Jerusalem - Dr. Moshe Gottlieb, 70, a suicide bombing in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem.

January 15, 2002, Bethlehem, West Bank. Avraham Boaz, 71, kidnapped at a Palestinian Authority (PA) security checkpoint in Beit Jala and murdered.

August 9, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bombing at Sbarro's, 31-year-old tourist from New Jersey, Shoshana Greenbaum

May 29, 2001, Gush Etzion, West Bank. Drive-by shooting Samuel Berg, and his mother, Sarah Blaustein.


October 8, 2000, Nablus, West Bank. The bullet-ridden body of Hillel Lieberman, a U.S. citizen living in the Jewish settlement of Elon Moreh, was found at the entrance to the West Bank town of Nablus.

February 1996 Sara Duker and her fiance killed on a bus boming in Jerusalem.

April 9, 1995, Kfar Darom and Netzarim, Gaza Strip. Suicide bomber crashed an explosive-rigged van into an Israeli bus in Netzarim, killing eight including U.S. citizen Alisa Flatow





And I agree- great post, headscratcher. Can I entice you back to the conversation thread?

[c0rbin]

So, AN@S,

How do you excuse violence?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by AN@S


My friend, I meant that Rachel’s story not well covered, imagine that the Palestinians has killed an American, I think that the situation will be totally different...

What an interesting thing to point out. I know what happens when Palestinian suicide bombers kill Americans in Israel. It gets far less attention than Rachel Corrie's death. Different, but not different in the way you intend.

MattJ

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by renata



Palestinians have killed many, many Americans. They were Jewish, so maybe it does not count. Here is a partial list of recent victims.

Thank you, Renata.

Unlike Rachel Corrie, I had never heard of any of those people. The situation is, indeed, totally different.

MattJ

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by No Answers
I've often wondered what would happen should the Palestinians pick up the mantle of Mohandas Ghandi, and engage in civil disobedience. Many would possibly be killed, yes; just as many are being killed now.

But such a group action would gain the world's attention, and focus it on the issue in a positive manner.

It is my belief that there is a subculture of suicide bombers in Palestine that will not be subdued, and that it is the intention of such people to be human bombs out of some twisted quixotic idea of how to deal with the problem.

The question is, how many Palestinians would actually support such actions. Unless its a large majority, and they are also willing to condem militant activities by the terrorsts, then nothing will change. (Last I heard, support for terrorist tactics was at around 60%.)

The problem is, the true "peace protesters" can demonstrate, march, etc. But if they march on Israeli troops, the soldiers have no idea whether the protesters are really peaceful, or terrorists using the cover of the march to get close to Israeli soldiers.

Of course, there is at least a little evidence that some Palestinians have pulled their head out of there colon long enough to figure out that: Israel's activities are the result of, not necessarily the cause of, terrorist attacks. See: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20030520/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

[Doubt]

Here is a list of dead and wounded US citizens from a pro Israeli source. (Best I could find with a quick look.)

This list covers 1993-2003.

http://www.house.gov/burton/RSC/PalestinianTerrorismFacts.PDF

This is well over 20 US citizens killed. None got the kind of media attention this young woman did.

[Skeptical Greg]

Glad I was paying attention when my mom told me not to stand in front of bull dozers or throw rocks at people with machine guns..


I'm also sorry this young woman chose to commit suicide. I hope other people who read this story will seek help before following through with such a decision..

Suicide is Serious (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20149)

[c0rbin]

Here is a list of dead and wounded US citizens from a pro Israeli source. (Best I could find with a quick look.)

These are political trumps, in my opinion, b/c Isreal can lay these down at the US table and get the money support needed. Add that to the mantle of fighting terrorism and you are sitting on a military gold mine.

It's almost as if those crying for peace are begging for war.

You gotta love a little Orwellian DoubleSpeak.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by c0rbin


These are political trumps, in my opinion, b/c Isreal can lay these down at the US table and get the money support needed. Add that to the mantle of fighting terrorism and you are sitting on a military gold mine.

It's almost as if those crying for peace are begging for war.

You gotta love a little Orwellian DoubleSpeak.

That could be the intent of those who compiled that list, but it is not my intent.

AN@S believes that Americans killed by Palestinians would get more coverage than Americans killed by Israelis. This list shows that it is not the case.

I do need one thing cleared up. Are you saying that I am engaged in Orwellian double speak?

[c0rbin]

That could be the intent of those who compiled that list, but it is not my intent.

Not at all, my friend. I understood your intent, I think. I was simply moving forward in the conversation--well, hopefully.

The harsh reality of "Peace through War."

Simlar logic could be applied to question: "Did the muslims who died working in the WTC (not the terrorists) become martyrs too?"

[Doubt]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Not at all, my friend. I understood your intent, I think. I was simply moving forward in the conversation--well, hopefully.

The harsh reality of "Peace through War."

Simlar logic could be applied to question: "Did the muslims who died working in the WTC (not the terrorists) become martyrs too?"

Thanks. Good question about the WTC.

[max]

Apparantly it is an insult for a muslim to see an infidel as the last thing he/she sees before death . How would the 9/11 suicide pilots feel about being with non-muslim pilots/passengers when they died?....hopefully it was a MASSIVE insult to them as they died

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by max
Apparantly it is an insult for a muslim to see an infidel as the last thing he/she sees before death .....

An insult to whom?

What are the consequenses of this insult? How can it be resolved?

[Jon_in_london]

So, lets have a look at this- when the palestinians and their sympathisers use violence to achieve their ends, then the Isrealis are justified in using violence in return yes?!?!?!?!?!?

AND YET (IM USING THIS LARGE FONT TO GET YOUR ATTENTION)

When the Palestinians and their symapthisers use peacfull means of protest they get killed. This is alright accoring to the pro-Isreali bunch.

Provided the Palestinians&Co only use peacefull means that thats O.K with the pro-Isrealis! sure a few 10,000s of Palestinians&Co might get killed by IDF tanks, and collective punishment all-round, in the meantime but rest assured that in the fullness of time, the Isrealis may just develope a concience and pull out of the occupied territories just like the Brits pulled out of Palestine in 1947 due to the peacefull pressure applied by the pre-nascent Isreali state (some mistake surely-Ed.)

Thats fine. Just like the Americans should have used peacefull means of protest against 9/11 rather than invading another soveriegn state- after all, sure a few 10,000 Americans might be killed in the short term but in the long term.............................................. .................................................. .........................................

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
So, lets have a look at this- when the palestinians and their sympathisers use violence to achieve their ends, then the Isrealis are justified in using violence in return yes?!?!?!?!?!?

AND YET (IM USING THIS LARGE FONT TO GET YOUR ATTENTION)

When the Palestinians and their symapthisers use peacfull means of protest they get killed. This is alright accoring to the pro-Isreali bunch.

Provided the Palestinians&Co only use peacefull means that thats O.K with the pro-Isrealis! sure a few 10,000s of Palestinians&Co might get killed by IDF tanks, and collective punishment all-round, in the meantime but rest assured that in the fullness of time, the Isrealis may just develope a concience and pull out of the occupied territories just like the Brits pulled out of Palestine in 1947 due to the peacefull pressure applied by the pre-nascent Isreali state (some mistake surely-Ed.)

Thats fine. Just like the Americans should have used peacefull means of protest against 9/11 rather than invading another soveriegn state- after all, sure a few 10,000 Americans might be killed in the short term but in the long term.............................................. .................................................. .........................................


If this makes sense to anyone, would you explain it to me..
:confused:

[max]

Diogenes
The muslim who is dying is totally insulted by the vision of an infidel ........hopefully they won't get to have their dozen virgins

I think Jon of london has lost it again. Are you p=ssed Jon?
P.S. take a look at the thread,....'This is when I support the death penalty' Jon has quite a strong view of what should be done with a murderer. Maybe his type of justice should be passed on to the Palistinians he so stands up for.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Diogenes


If this makes sense to anyone, would you explain it to me..
:confused:

Peacfull opposition is fine. Just as long as its not your people who are being massacred.

P.S. take a look at the thread,....'This is when I support the death penalty' Jon has quite a strong view of what should be done with a murderer. Maybe his type of justice should be passed on to the Palistinians he so stands up for.

Maybe my type of justice should be 'passed on' to Ariel Sharon.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
So, lets have a look at this- when the palestinians and their sympathisers use violence to achieve their ends, then the Isrealis are justified in using violence in return yes?!?!?!?!?!?

When the Palestinians and their symapthisers use peacfull means of protest they get killed. This is alright accoring to the pro-Isreali bunch.


There are a couple of very big differences between the 'peaceful' means current palestinians are using, and a true 'peace' movement.

Currently, many of these 'peaceful' activities are actually done to enable more violent ones. For example, you can peacefully protest the destruction of a palestinian house, but if that house is used for arms smuggling, or was used by snipers (as is often the case in the West Bank and Gaza), then that 'peace' protester is trying to protect the people who engage in violence.

Another big difference is the scope.... In the case of India/Ghandi, and the U.S. civil rights protests, the majority of activists were peaceful. Ghandi and his followers renounced violence. In the case of the Palestinians, a large proportion support the terrorist campaigns. So, if you are an Israeli soldier and you see a group of Palestinians coming your way, do you assume that they are:
- Peaceful, only wanting to march and chant
- more violent, willing to engage in rock throwing, fire bombing, or worse?


Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Provided the Palestinians&Co only use peacefull means that thats O.K with the pro-Isrealis! sure a few 10,000s of Palestinians&Co might get killed by IDF tanks, and collective punishment all-round, in the meantime but rest assured that in the fullness of time, the Isrealis may just develope a concience and pull out of the occupied territories just like the Brits pulled out of Palestine in 1947 due to the peacefull pressure applied by the pre-nascent Isreali state (some mistake surely-Ed.)


Why do you assume that Israel would still be killing palestinians if they were only using peaceful means? Do you assume that they not have a consience now? Do you assume the Jews enjoy killing helpless people?

[Baker]

Well here is a side of the story not reported in the main press.


The first incident was the most serious, and the most reported in the press - the March 16th death of twenty-three year old Rachel Corrie, crushed beneath a bulldozer in Rafah when its operator failed to see her. Corrie was attempting to prevent the destruction of a Palestinian home, as the press widely reported. But most of the press (but not FrontPagemag.com) failed to report the presence of extensive tunnels underneath the homes of Rafah, used to deliver arms across the Egyptian border to the terrorist Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Houses involved in such smuggling are demolished as a matter of course. And when Corrie was killed, according to a Israeli Consulate media officer in San Francisco, the bulldozer was not even attempting to raze a home - just remove shrubbery used to hide a tunnel. Rachel Corrie died for nothing. An inquiry into her death found that she and other members of the International Solidarity Movement had engaged in "illegal, irresponsible, and dangerous" behavior. Indeed - by blocking the destruction of these houses, the International Solidarity Movement may have contributed to the arming of terrorists and the murder of innocent people.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7361

[Baker]

Originally posted by AN@S
We used daily to hear that many innocents Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli soldiers, due to unconvincing reasons !!!
They say that those civilians are fighting them, shooting them, and that Israeli army have the right to repel them !!!!

Well, let's believe in this, and that Israeli aren't criminals, but they defend themselves, but what did the American & European peace activists done, in order to be killed severity by Israeli army ???

How do Israeli alleges that they want peace, and that they aren't murders while they are Impudently killing peace activists
!!!!!!
American or Europeans peace activist comes to Palestine to support Palestinian people, and to feel their pain and sadness, so what's wrong they made to be killed by Israeli, while he is supporting peace ????

One of those peace activist was Rachel Corrie, we all cried when we heard about her, me, all American noblemen, and every peace lover all over the world..
Rachel Corrie, who had crushed by Sharon's bulldozer till death !!!!
I liked to post her story here, in an American forum, because as I heard that Rachel's story had blacked out by American mass media, which droved by Zionist lobby in the USA


Rachel Corrie, 23,
bulldozed to death by Israeli Forces










http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml



The problem with the AP photo caption is that readers are led to believe that this photo depicts the very scene and moment of the accident. The implication is criminal recklessness on the part of the IDF driver.

In fact, however, this photo was NOT taken in the moments before Corrie's death. Joseph Smith, of the pro-Palestinian International Solidarity Movement, was the photographer and wrote a chronological account of the incident (published on pro-Palestinian websites).

Smith says that the photo of Corrie "standing with megaphone" is ascribed to the time period 2pm-4pm. In addition, during this period, Smith notes that the bulldozer "always stopped in time to avoid injuring them."

At the time of Corrie's death (5pm), Smith describes Corrie as "sitting, with arms waving" (no megaphone), and another colleague holding the megaphone from a distance.

Additionally, one key point that Smith does not mention is that the bulldozers shown in the two photos are different types. The later photo is a bulldozer with much smaller windows, and hence reduced visibility.
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Rachel_Corrie3_Continued.asp


Photographed before Rachel Corrie was run over by an IDF bulldozer." Everyone who looks at the picture and the text understands that the driver, who sees the American civilian standing in front of him, just kept on going, crushing her to death. But Joe Smith says that the picture was taken hours before she was run over, which happened at 5:00 p.m., and not a few minutes beforehand. Smith emphasizes that at the time of the incident and during it, there were no photographers in the area.

After I checked the pictures that Reuters distributed to the world's newspapers, I noticed the difference between the colors of the sky in the picture where Corrie stands with the megaphone and the one that shows the body after the incident. The time the picture was taken also appears in text on the Internet site, saying that it was in the morning. It is not noted that the incident took place hours later.
http://www.alisrael.com/rachel_corrie/murder.html



So you see the difference in the 2 photo’s AN@s posted noticed the difference between the colors of the sky in the picture where Corrie stands with the megaphone and the bulldozers shown in the two photos are different types.

[peptoabysmal]

AN@S:

We can all dig up atrocities committed by both sides in this conflict, complete with saddening, sickening photos.

I believe that in that part of the world, there has been so much violence that people are understandably trigger-happy.

I also think that in the light of that fact, it was stupid for one of my fellow Americans to go over there and try some stunt from the sixties. Stupid people aren't protected as well overseas as they are here in the states.

That being said, what is your solution to the Palestinian / Israeli conflict?

Are you merely justifying your anger, or do you propose a solution? If you do have an idea how to solve the conflict, I would like to hear it.

[AN@S]

Originally posted by renata



Palestinians have killed many, many Americans. They were Jewish, so maybe it does not count.

renata we can't count those Americans because they has been killed by accident, they were in the place of a bombing, shoothing, etc... but no one targeted them because they are Americans or because they are peace activits..
But my point is the Israeli occupation TARGETS foreign peace activits while they knew previously that they are peace activits...
Israelis not targeting them by accident but to tell a message to the whole world which is :"We don't want peace, we're not the people of peace"...

I'll be back to tell some other stories about American peace activits has killed by Israelis

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

Do you assume the Jews enjoy killing helpless people?

You seem to admit that Isrealis DO in fact, kill helpless people

I assume that Isrealis dont seem to mind killing helpless people very much, since they do it with such elan.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Baker
So you see the difference in the 2 photo’s AN@s posted noticed the difference between the colors of the sky in the picture where Corrie stands with the megaphone and the bulldozers shown in the two photos are different types.



http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/LHO/oswald.GIF


Do you mean like this?

[hisham]

Originally posted by Segnosaur


The question is, how many Palestinians would actually support such actions. Unless its a large majority, and they are also willing to condem militant activities by the terrorsts, then nothing will change. (Last I heard, support for terrorist tactics was at around 60%.)

Segnosaur,
If this percentage is correct, do you mean the solution is killing these 60%? Because it seems like you don't give any consideration for Israel's activities in the territories.


The problem is, the true "peace protesters" can demonstrate, march, etc. But if they march on Israeli troops, the soldiers have no idea whether the protesters are really peaceful, or terrorists using the cover of the march to get close to Israeli soldiers.



Is this a comparison between terrorism and Peace Activists, or just trying to justify Israeli army's terrorist attacks?

[max]

ultimately Hisham, the stupid woman should not have tried her strength against a bulldozer. There would be a point when the driver would not beable to see her.i.e. a blind spot as when one is in a car. I am sure he would have assumed that she'd had sense to jump out the way. She is assuming he'll stop for her.
It should be a lesson to anyone out there to mind their own business, I am sure Palestinians can well cope without these do-gooders. The sad fact is, you want it to be an 'evil Israeli' that has murdered her. Of course her family must grieve terribly as do the innocent families of the hundreds of innocent Israelis the palestinians have murdered on behalf of Allah. Allah must be sitting up there bursting with pride at the stupid people he supposedly created......in other words he must be a right thick head. Why produce a species that murders each other.:confused:

[renata]

Originally posted by AN@S


renata we can't count those Americans because they has been killed by accident, they were in the place of a bombing, shoothing, etc... but no one targeted them because they are Americans or because they are peace activits..
But my point is the Israeli occupation TARGETS foreign peace activits while they knew previously that they are peace activits...
Israelis not targeting them by accident but to tell a message to the whole world which is :"We don't want peace, we're not the people of peace"...

I'll be back to tell some other stories about American peace activits has killed by Israelis

By accident??? BY ACCIDENT? Have your lost all your senses? There just happened to be there during an act of terror? I suppose 9/11 victims also died in an "accident"- they just happened to be on the hijacked planes, in WTC and Pentagon. If Israel targeted peace activists, there would be more than one or two deaths on years of intifada!

How about you be back to answer some questions in the Conversation thread. How about you think about what you just said.

On March 5 2003, Abigail Litle, 14, was killed in a Palestinian suicide bombing attack on a bus in the northern Israeli city of Haifa. Last July, five Americans died in a bombing at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

A thriteen year old boy, named Koby Mandell, a U.S. citizen, was stoned to death on May 8, 2001.

June 19, 2002, Jerusalem - Gila Sara Kessler, 19, suicide boming

Jun 18, 2002, Jerusalem - Dr. Moshe Gottlieb, 70, a suicide bombing in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem.

January 15, 2002, Bethlehem, West Bank. Avraham Boaz, 71, kidnapped at a Palestinian Authority (PA) security checkpoint in Beit Jala and murdered.

August 9, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bombing at Sbarro's, 31-year-old tourist from New Jersey, Shoshana Greenbaum

May 29, 2001, Gush Etzion, West Bank. Drive-by shooting Samuel Berg, and his mother, Sarah Blaustein.


October 8, 2000, Nablus, West Bank. The bullet-ridden body of Hillel Lieberman, a U.S. citizen living in the Jewish settlement of Elon Moreh, was found at the entrance to the West Bank town of Nablus.

February 1996 Sara Duker and her fiance killed on a bus boming in Jerusalem.

April 9, 1995, Kfar Darom and Netzarim, Gaza Strip. Suicide bomber crashed an explosive-rigged van into an Israeli bus in Netzarim, killing eight including U.S. citizen Alisa Flatow

[renata]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
AN@S:

We can all dig up atrocities committed by both sides in this conflict, complete with saddening, sickening photos.

I believe that in that part of the world, there has been so much violence that people are understandably trigger-happy.

I also think that in the light of that fact, it was stupid for one of my fellow Americans to go over there and try some stunt from the sixties. Stupid people aren't protected as well overseas as they are here in the states.

That being said, what is your solution to the Palestinian / Israeli conflict?

Are you merely justifying your anger, or do you propose a solution? If you do have an idea how to solve the conflict, I would like to hear it.


I invite you ( and other posters) to this thread http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18464

When you read it, you can get an idea of some shockingly contradictory opinions held by our Syrian posters. My favorite one is that Jews did not exist until 5th century CE- they were invented by Persians. Oh, and the Jews also crucified Jesus (apparently they were able to invent a time machine). That does not seem to surprise them. They also proposed some peace deals- most of them having to do with sending Jews where they came from.

Sadly, although that thread was meant to exchange idea and promote understanding, my view swung further to the right on the issue of Israel after reading some very surprising posts there.

[Cleopatra]

AN@S and hisham are Syrians they are not Palestinians.

If you exclude the animals of Hamas who murder people for the sake of Allah, Palestinian people are not that fanatic or bloodthirsty. Syrians have the big problem as they are blinded by they hatred. That's why you receive such insensitive comments like " The Americans were killed by mistake..."

[c0rbin]

jon in london

When the Palestinians and their symapthisers use peacfull means of protest they get killed.

This would be more effective if "peaceful means" were a pan-islamo policy.

Cleary they have an opportunity to paint the Isrealis as evil aggressors. They screw this opportunity by duping their youth into strapping on explosives.

Perhaps this is medeival thinking. Perhaps Isalm needs a reformation. Not sure and I am unsympathetic to fundamentalism in any case.

Are there any muslims, practicing, progressive, or otherwise, who can comment on this?

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
AN@S and hisham are Syrians they are not Palestinians.

If you exclude the animals of Hamas who murder people for the sake of Allah, Palestinian people are not that fanatic or bloodthirsty. Syrians have the big problem as they are blinded by they hatred. That's why you receive such insensitive comments like " The Americans were killed by mistake..."

and you must exclude the animals of The Israeli terrorist groups i.e. the Hagana, the Irgun Zvai Leuni and Stern who committed acts of unimaginablemassacres (http://www.willy-nilly.org/04/epoh/israel.html) and others who attacked the USS Liberty (http://ussliberty.org) and many more. If you did, then you can see the real problem of the Israelis now is those immigrants from Greece, Russia etc… who are looking for opportunities and destroying the society and the stability.

[Cleopatra]

And don't forget that we are drinking blood too!!! Since you believe in the Protocols...

Some of us, of course, who have travelled abroad and have been initiated in the secrets of Grand Cuisine, we don't just drink blood, we eat you as well and the leftovers are thrown to the crocodiles that we breed specifically for this reason...


I think that hatred makes your blood sour and your meat too ...stony.... please relax...

[max]

I looked at the first link Hisham and yes it was terrible but the thing is this. What can be done from now? What can we all do to right the situation so life is good for everybody?
It is a waste of time and energy reaping up the past. What can we do now? Not, what did we do then?
Israel is such a beautiful country beside a gorgeous blue sea, with a surplus of sunshine. Oh what a waste.
I still say that the Jews have no other nation wereas the arabs are land rich. Israel is about 170 miles by 70, It's tiny in comparison to what other nations/races have.
So what are we going to do Hisham? Will you at least agree that keep telling of incidents is just a waste of time?

[Baker]

Originally posted by Frank Newgent







Do you mean like this?

The two pictures of Rachel Corrie are for more obvious then to old pictures of Oswell or you trying to turn this small even into a major conspiracy theory?

[Baker]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


You seem to admit that Isrealis DO in fact, kill helpless people

I assume that Isrealis dont seem to mind killing helpless people very much, since they do it with such elan.


You mean those women and children being blown up in Bus’s and markets its pathetic how pro-terror supporters never bring up innocent Israelis being killed but if Palestine gets caught in the cross fire from having militia hiding behind them then Israel is the evil aggressor.

[hisham]

Originally posted by c0rbin
jon in london



This would be more effective if "peaceful means" were a pan-islamo policy.

Cleary they have an opportunity to paint the Isrealis as evil aggressors. They screw this opportunity by duping their youth into strapping on explosives.

Perhaps this is medeival thinking. Perhaps Isalm needs a reformation. Not sure and I am unsympathetic to fundamentalism in any case.

Are there any muslims, practicing, progressive, or otherwise, who can comment on this?

Very interesting post c0rbin,
As I said before am not religious, but I belong to the Islamic civilization, and like you I am unsympathetic to fundamentalism in any case. Did you note the Islam was in focus just in the last years? For example US supported many Islamic movements in the Middle East when they was an instruments for US interests, this movements as you said still adapting medieval thinking, you can't do reformation for religions because they live in spirits of people since 1000s of years, but thinking exchange manners between civilizations do need reformation, the question is: why you have the right to make reformation in my civilization when this is suitable for your interest and I haven't this right? Is that because you have the power now? Both sides have fundamentalism and will be more effective understanding that both need reformation.

[hisham]

Originally posted by max
I looked at the first link Hisham and yes it was terrible but the thing is this. What can be done from now? What can we all do to right the situation so life is good for everybody?
It is a waste of time and energy reaping up the past. What can we do now? Not, what did we do then?
Israel is such a beautiful country beside a gorgeous blue sea, with a surplus of sunshine. Oh what a waste.
I still say that the Jews have no other nation wereas the arabs are land rich. Israel is about 170 miles by 70, It's tiny in comparison to what other nations/races have.
So what are we going to do Hisham? Will you at least agree that keep telling of incidents is just a waste of time?

Max,
I think this is the best post I had seen in this conversation, what can we all do to right the situation? Is the right question. I think both sides need to change many things, it is very important to start conversation between people not politicians, because I think Sharon and Arafat have serious personal "since 1982 in Beirut" and political problems, they can't bring peace.

[max]

Hisham
I think you are right about Sharon and Arafat but hopefully this new 'map' will do something. The world weeps Hisham, please know that. We all want a good life and we all want peace for the jews and arabs.

[Doubt]

Been away from this thread for a while. Normally I don’t get involved in Israeli Palestinian issues because objective opinions are very few and far between. But one thing going on here bothers me.

Jon in London,

I am curious. Are you a bigot?

Do you assume that the Israelis are a monolithic entity that all think and act the same way? This post and several others appear to suggest just that.

If this is true, you would not be unique. This sort of view is common to those you have made up there mind that one group or another is mostly responsible for a complex problem.

It would seem to me that all normal adult humans have empathy for other people. It can be switched off towards individuals or groups based on certain types of actions or beliefs. The most common way to blind someone’s empathy is to dismiss the group as something less than human. Often when atrocities are committed, we hear the groups responsible say that the enemy is little more than dogs, or some other such thing. It gets very easy to do this when such an enemy does things like attack soft targets and kill civilians.

Passive resistance is a good way to wake people up to the humanity of their enemies. This only works if it is uncoupled from acts of violence from the resistors. If the Palestinians were to adopt it as a tactic, they would suffer losses. Not much different than what is already happening. Certainly many Israelis would still turn a blind eye to what is happening. But the first people the Palestinians need to convince are not the Israelis. TV cameras are a wonderful tool for getting the word out to the rest of the world. Especially the United States.

The greatest influence on Israel comes from the US. The US will not be persuaded to act in favor of the Palestinians as long as suicide bombers are blowing up women and children. The US can be persuaded by other means. A change in US public opinion is one thing that the Israeli right wing really does fear.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


You seem to admit that Isrealis DO in fact, kill helpless people


Yes they do... but they do not specifically target them. In general, "Innocent" Palestinian deaths tend to be from either their involuntary participation as human sheilds, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Keep in mind that these same Israelis that you think enjoy killing Palestinians so much, made special provisions to bring in blood from Jordan for use in the occupied territories to save lives. (Why did they do that? Because the Palistinians did not want "Jewish" blood.)

These are also the same Israelis who run many hospitals that offer free medical care to Palestinians.

Israel is also the country that has been willing to help other Arab countries, as they did with Turkey during recent earthquakes.

Hardly the acts of people trying to slaughter Arabs now, is it?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by hisham

Segnosaur,
If this percentage is correct, do you mean the solution is killing these 60%? Because it seems like you don't give any consideration for Israel's activities in the territories.


I cannot verify the 60% figure. I remember reading it on one of the mainstream news sites, but never bothered to keep the link. (I do know that it was not exactly 60%, but I remember it being in the range.)

At no point did I ever suggest killing those 60%. If you were actually mentally able to follow my posting, the reason why I mentioned it is because it is necessary to understand the depths of Palestinian terrorism, and point out why a "peace" movement in Palestine, while desparately needed, would fail.... Not enough people truely want peace.

What is needed is the following:
- The rest of the world must recognize the problem for what it is.... Arafat is a terrorist, Israel is not the agressor, and people who blow up innocent people are not to be negotiated with. Many UN "refugee" camps actually are used for terrorist bases, and not every Palestinian Media event is to be trusted as true. The sooner the rest of the world stops condeming Israel for defending themselves, and starts condeming Palestinians for not doing their part to stop terrorst attacks, the better
- Eliminate current Palestinian leadership, if they will not actually try to arrest terrorists. Better yet, give them democracy
- Bring real education to the Palestinians. Show them that the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is false, get them to understand that working peacefully with Israel will provide more benefit to them and their children than supporting terrorist attacks.

As for Israeli activities, the vast amount of military activity has been in attempt to stop terrorist attacks (the exact activity that the Palistinan authority was supposed to do, but failed, under the Oslo agreement.)
Originally posted by hisham


Is this a comparison between terrorism and Peace Activists, or just trying to justify Israeli army's terrorist attacks?

If you think what the Israeli army does is a 'terrorist attack', then you obviously don't understand what a terrorist is. Its sad, really. You're shut off in the world there, and your mind has been corrupted so much.

Terrorism involves individuals NOT wearing a recognized uniform, engaging in activities in which the goal is not the activity itself, but the spread of panic. Typically these activities are usually (but not always) aimed at civilians.

The Israeli army DOES wear uniforms, and when they do engage in military activities, its goal is to remove specific terrorist threats, NOT to panic the population.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Doubt

Jon in London,

I am curious. Are you a bigot?

Do you assume that the Israelis are a monolithic entity that all think and act the same way? This post and several others appear to suggest just that.


No.

I know that Isreali elects its leaders. Ergo, all actions committed by the Isreali government represent the will of its people.

Are you a bigot? do you assume that Palestinians are a monlithic entity that all think and act the same way? This post and several others appear to suggest just that.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

Arafat is a terrorist, Israel is not the agressor, and people who blow up innocent people are not to be negotiated with. Many UN "refugee" camps actually are used for terrorist bases, and not every Palestinian Media event is to be trusted as true.The sooner the rest of the world stops condeming Israel for defending themselves, and starts condeming Palestinians for not doing their part to stop terrorst attacks, the better
- Eliminate current Palestinian leadership, if they will not actually try to arrest terrorists. Better yet, give them democracy
- Bring real education to the Palestinians. Show them that the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is false, get them to understand that working peacefully with Israel will provide more benefit to them and their children than supporting terrorist attacks.

As for Israeli activities, the vast amount of military activity has been in attempt to stop terrorist attacks (the exact activity that the Palistinan authority was supposed to do, but failed, under the Oslo agreement.)


If you think what the Israeli army does is a 'terrorist attack', then you obviously don't understand what a terrorist is. Its sad, really. You're shut off in the world there, and your mind has been corrupted so much.

Terrorism involves individuals NOT wearing a recognized uniform, engaging in activities in which the goal is not the activity itself, but the spread of panic. Typically these activities are usually (but not always) aimed at civilians.

The Israeli army DOES wear uniforms, and when they do engage in military activities, its goal is to remove specific terrorist threats, NOT to panic the population.

Old fashion thinking, Who care about "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and this definition of terrorism?:D , because nothing can be hidden in our world in these days, the problem is more complicated than what you say, it is an interests conflict and Israel is just a tool and we must to accept it if we think as realists, also all the world know that Sharon is a war criminal, how can any body negotiate with him?

[Skeptic]

Old fashion thinking, Who care about "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

The Syrians and Egyptians, who teach it as "history" to their children. Why do you ask?

because nothing can be hidden in our world in these days,

Except if, like Syria and the rest of the arab world (and North Korea), you do not let the "zionist controlled" western media in, and force the population to accept as gospel truth the state-run propaganda.

the problem is more complicated than what you say, it is an interests conflict and Israel is just a tool

Will you people MAKE UP YOUR MINDS???

On Monday, when the US refuses to do something the Arabs want, it is because israel "secretly" controls the US throught the "evil zionists".

On Tuesday, when israel refuses to do something the Arabs want, they demand the US do something about it because israel is "just a tool" of the US.

Why don't you decide: israel can hardly be BOTH a tool AND the secret ruler of the USA. Choose one.

and we must to accept it if we think as realists, also all the world know that Sharon is a war criminal, how can any body negotiate with him?

Why not?

Virtually every Arab leader, including Assad and Arafat, was at least a war criminal against other people, and usually also a butcher of his own people. If you want israel to negotiate with war criminals like your leaders, you should at least be willing to negotiate with Sharon. It should be noted, for example, that your late glorious leader, Hafez al-Assad, killed far more Syrians than Sharon (or israel in general) ever did.

Want to fight war criminals? Talk against Assad, or run against his son in the elections in Syria. Oh, wait: there aren't none, and the secret police will pick you up and kill you if you try. I keep forgetting that Syria is a one-party dictatorship ruled by a madman. Yes, you're just the people to criticize israeli "abuses" of democracy and freedom...

And, to repeat, calling Sharon a "war criminal" when your country's official goal is a genocide of the jews is a bit like calling someone "violent" for not submitting easily to your murderous knife stabs when you attack them on the street. But here I go again, asking Arabs to give up the dream of genocide and a second holocaust. What am I thinking? Clearly, it's part of the "legitimate rights of the palestinian people"...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Old fashion thinking, Who care about "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

The Syrians and Egyptians, who teach it as "history" to their children. Why do you ask?



And Jewish children are taught that nothing as terrible as "The Holocaust" has happened in history.



because nothing can be hidden in our world in these days,

Except if, like Syria and the rest of the arab world (and North Korea), you do not let the "zionist controlled" western media in, and force the population to accept as gospel truth the state-run propaganda.



And Israel does not intimidate and kill western reporters.



the problem is more complicated than what you say, it is an interests conflict and Israel is just a tool

Will you people MAKE UP YOUR MINDS???

On Monday, when the US refuses to do something the Arabs want, it is because israel "secretly" controls the US throught the "evil zionists".

On Tuesday, when israel refuses to do something the Arabs want, they demand the US do something about it because israel is "just a tool" of the US.

Why don't you decide: israel can hardly be BOTH a tool AND the secret ruler of the USA. Choose one.



Because they are different people, just as there are different jews?



and we must to accept it if we think as realists, also all the world know that Sharon is a war criminal, how can any body negotiate with him?

Why not?

Virtually every Arab leader, including Assad and Arafat, was at least a war criminal against other people, and usually also a butcher of his own people. If you want israel to negotiate with war criminals like your leaders, you should at least be willing to negotiate with Sharon. It should be noted, for example, that your late glorious leader, Hafez al-Assad, killed far more Syrians than Sharon (or israel in general) ever did.

Want to fight war criminals? Talk against Assad, or run against his son in the elections in Syria. Oh, wait: there aren't none, and the secret police will pick you up and kill you if you try. I keep forgetting that Syria is a one-party dictatorship ruled by a madman. Yes, you're just the people to criticize israeli "abuses" of democracy and freedom...

And, to repeat, calling Sharon a "war criminal" when your country's official goal is a genocide of the jews is a bit like calling someone "violent" for not submitting easily to your murderous knife stabs when you attack them on the street. But here I go again, asking Arabs to give up the dream of genocide and a second holocaust. What am I thinking? Clearly, it's part of the "legitimate rights of the palestinian people"...

There is a lot of blood on a lot of hands in that region. Can we just stop holding up Israel as a paragon of virtue. Yes, Syria's record on human rights is not too good. Funnily enough, neither is Israel's.

Israel presents itself as a democracy, but circumvents such basic tenets of democracy as the rule of law.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Segnosaur


What is needed is the following:
- The rest of the world must recognize the problem for what it is.... Arafat is a terrorist, Israel is not the agressor, and people who blow up innocent people are not to be negotiated with. Many UN "refugee" camps actually are used for terrorist bases, and not every Palestinian Media event is to be trusted as true. The sooner the rest of the world stops condeming Israel for defending themselves, and starts condeming Palestinians for not doing their part to stop terrorst attacks, the better


Israel has been a relentless aggressor. Just as their arms are more sophisticated, so are their tactics. The end result is just the same, however, the removal of territory by force, the imposition of unwanted rule, the death and suffering of many innocents.

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
And Jewish children are taught that nothing as terrible as "The Holocaust" has happened in history.
While your non-sourced assertion is interesting, I do have a question about it. Is there any specific reason that you put the Holocaust into quotations? Who were you quoting?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by no one in particular
While your non-sourced assertion is interesting, I do have a question about it. Is there any specific reason that you put the Holocaust into quotations? Who were you quoting?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1859847730/qid=1053872835/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-5951174-0946327?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I was amazed to hear someone talking on the radio the other night, I came in halfway through the interview. Talk of the war on terrorism, and then I find he is a spokesman for the Simon Weisenthal Centre. Yes, the holocaust was a massive tragedy for the Jewish people, as have other acts of genocide. It has been appropriated for other purposes these days.

[renata]

Originally posted by no one in particular
While your non-sourced assertion is interesting, I do have a question about it. Is there any specific reason that you put the Holocaust into quotations? Who were you quoting?


AUP is a person who thinks Holocaust was "overdone" ( he apologized for that word later, he just meant it was exploited and abused for Israel's gain, and that it was no big deal, anyway).

He is also someone who makes the same accusations against Israel over and over even after others have refuted them. He does not answer the refutation, he goes on to post them elsewhere, a tad later. One example is the "Arabs are not allowed to buy land in Israel" Electrix corrected him on one thread, and he never responded to her after she posted at least 3 additional posts over the next few days.
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18464&perpage=40&pagenumber=3 That did not stop him from posting the same assertion in another thread later. http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19826&perpage=40&pagenumber=2 When I reminded him about that, he said he was reasearching the issue, which apparently does not stop him from posting previously refuted statements. http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19510&perpage=40&pagenumber=2


In another such thing he did in this very thread, is this "Israel targets reporters". Skeptic posted an analyisis here http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=377909&highlight=reporter#post377909 Of course, AUP went on to make the claim elsewhere, entirely disregarding what he read.


Some people listen to others and reassess their assumptions. AUP just posts the same old refuted claims. The favorite things I saw so far, in addition to what I mentioned above
Jews use Holocaust to get money out of non Jews and blackmail countries to support Israel
Sharon had a big smile when he went on the Wailing Wall anticipating deaths of thousands
Sharon wants to annex all Palestinian territories and wipe out the Palestinians
Israel is stealing water from Palestinians
US army is either poor starving people forced to war or blood thirsty war criminals- whichever article he stumbled on that day.

There are many others. His posts are quite boringly predictable.

Here is a thread http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15464 in which he is unable to admit that if a book is promoted on Neo Nazi and Holocaust denying sites and crititicized in the media, perhaps the book is a little skewed. It is like relying on "Critical examination of Psychics" if it was endorsed and promoted by John Edward and Sylvia Browne. One would think some alarm bells would ring.

[Cleopatra]

Equating the Protocols with the Holocaust saddens me more than I can describe.

I'd better get off the pc and go for a walk...

[JamesM]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

And Jewish children are taught that nothing as terrible as "The Holocaust" has happened in history.


Splutter.

You know, most of the time, I quite like reading your posts, AUP. I mean, I don't normally agree with them, but who wants to read stuff they agree with all the time?

But perhaps you might acknowledge that there's a bit of a difference between teaching that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true - which is a lie - and teaching that nothing as terrible as the Holocaust has happened in history - for which you could construct a strong argument, at least?

edited to fix syntax

[aerocontrols]

This (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8529&goto=nextoldest) is my favorite AUP post.


Tricky: With Hurricane Lili bearing down on Louisiana, there is a distinct possibility that the face of the US may be changed dramatically. For years, the Army Corps of Engineers has been struggling valliently to keep the Mississippi River in it's banks.

AUP:
There is nothing so fascinating as an intelligent american looking at the future. As the most powerful country on earth, they still have to face the limits of their power.

I never cease to be amazed at his consistency.

[Skeptic]

Equating the Protocols with the Holocaust saddens me more than I can describe.

C'mon, Cleo; what did you expect from an antisemite like "A Unique Person", who ALWAYS blames the jews (and the US) for everything... including the weather--as the post above me by "aerocontrols" shows?

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1859847730/qid=1053872835/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-5951174-0946327?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I was amazed to hear someone talking on the radio the other night, I came in halfway through the interview. Talk of the war on terrorism, and then I find he is a spokesman for the Simon Weisenthal Centre. Yes, the holocaust was a massive tragedy for the Jewish people, as have other acts of genocide. It has been appropriated for other purposes these days. Okay, so you failed to support your assertion that Jewish children are taught that nothing in history is more terrible than the Holocaust and you ignored my questions about inserting the Holocaust into quotations (while capitalizing “The” for some reason).

Note that I would not ask this question of one of our Syrian posters who seem to be using quotations for emphasis. I would not ask them about proper quotation usage because I would be unable to communicate with them at all if we were required to do so in Arabic (I would like thank them for both picking up English as a language and coming to the JREF to discuss these matters with us, I salute their effort.) No, I ask this question of you because I think you understand proper quotation usage. It would appear as though you think the Nazi act of genocide fails to meet the requirements for the definition of a holocaust, therefore you put the words in quotations to show that you would not call that little bit of genocide a holocaust. Maybe it does not meet your personal requirements for a holocaust? Perhaps you do not like that it is generally capitalized?

Notice that folks don’t generally capitalize “the” as you did. So, while it the Holocaust is generally capitalized to refer the this specific case of genocide, the “the” is not capitalized because it is not the only known case of genocide.

I am sorry if I am wrong, but I gave you an opportunity to explain why you put it in quotations and you were evasive. I am now just jumping to conclusions.

And no, an Amazon.com link to a book by an author who is making a career bashing the Jews and bemoaning the Palestinians does nothing to support your assertion. I will go ahead and admit that I know nothing of this author other than the titles of his books.

[Cleopatra]

Skeptic

I am not sure that Unique is an antisemite.

It seems to me that he quits the debate really soon lately and he starts playing. I do it myself sometimes, especially when I am tired but I would never,EVER, say "jokes" about drinking arabic blood etc etc if I was addressing to Palestinians ( I am addressing to Syrians that are not personally involved into the matter).

My family was involved in the Holocaust and I am getting so sad when I read comments like this that I can't find the courage to reply.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1859847730/qid=1053872835/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-5951174-0946327?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I was amazed to hear someone talking on the radio the other night, I came in halfway through the interview. Talk of the war on terrorism, and then I find he is a spokesman for the Simon Weisenthal Centre. Yes, the holocaust was a massive tragedy for the Jewish people, as have other acts of genocide. It has been appropriated for other purposes these days.

C'mon now. No one plays the "victim card" more often than the Palestinian Arabs. How many discussions have we had going back how many hundreds or thousands of years?

[Skeptic]

Skeptic

I am not sure that Unique is an antisemite.

You can start with his enthusiastic justification of the destruction of the jewish state, and his claims that the jews "exagerrate" the holocaust for their own nefarious purposes.

If that isn't antisemitism, what is?

P.S.

He claims that his support for destroying israel isn't "really" antisemitism, because it only calls for the genocide of the jews "in a strictly limited geographical area".

Nice guy, eh?

Reminds me of the old joke about a southern colonel in the 19th century who was told that the state legistlature just made it illegal to shoot black people. "You don't say!", he replied. "In what months?"

I suppose that this colonel would not be a racist occording to AUP's definition, since he only called for the murder of blacks "in a strictly limited temporal area".

[DanishDynamite]

Segnosaur:What is needed is the following:
- The rest of the world must recognize the problem for what it is.... Arafat is a terrorist, Israel is not the agressor, and people who blow up innocent people are not to be negotiated with. Many UN "refugee" camps actually are used for terrorist bases, and not every Palestinian Media event is to be trusted as true. The sooner the rest of the world stops condeming Israel for defending themselves, and starts condeming Palestinians for not doing their part to stop terrorst attacks, the better
Counterproductive and irrelevant. What is needed is for the blame game to stop.
- Eliminate current Palestinian leadership, if they will not actually try to arrest terrorists. Better yet, give them democracyWhy is the arresting of terrorists of utmost importance? What is needed is that the leadership on both sides want peace.

Establishing democracy in Palestine is a worthy goal, but I don't see how it is essential to the establishment of a Palestine state.
- Bring real education to the Palestinians. Show them that the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is false, get them to understand that working peacefully with Israel will provide more benefit to them and their children than supporting terrorist attacks.Good point.

[Skeptic]

Counterproductive and irrelevant. What is needed is for the blame game to stop.

Funny, the palestinians never tire of the blame game--their entire existence is predicated on the awful things the jews did to them. When people say "the blame game must stop", what they really mean is "the jews should stop whining about getting blown up in buses."

Why is the arresting of terrorists of utmost importance?

Because when they aren't arrested, they butcher jews. But I forget that doesn't count; it's just "part of the peace process".

Establishing democracy in Palestine is a worthy goal, but I don't see how it is essential to the establishment of a Palestine state.

Because the last thing the world need is yet ANOTHER violent muslim kleptocracy, like the "liberated" palestinian state is likely to be.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Skeptic

I am not sure that Unique is an antisemite.

You can start with his enthusiastic justification of the destruction of the jewish state, and his claims that the jews "exagerrate" the holocaust for their own nefarious purposes.

If that isn't antisemitism, what is?


I wonder... just a very hypothetical thought... if in " A case against AUP" Unique was "hiring" me to defend him and if I arrived to persuade people here that he is not an anti-semite but he is just misinformed ... then, would he accept to return me the favour by stopping posting in threads about Middle East...?

Who knows?

[DanishDynamite]

Skeptic:Funny, the palestinians never tire of the blame game--their entire existence is predicated on the awful things the jews did to them. When people say "the blame game must stop", what they really mean is "the jews should stop whining about getting blown up in buses."Perhaps some people mean this. I don't.
Because when they aren't arrested, they butcher jews. But I forget that doesn't count; it's just "part of the peace process".Fine. If you really want the random killing to continue, that's the way to go. I hope you enjoy watching the results for the next 20 years. Sorry, I mean 50. Or wait, is it a hundred?
Because the last thing the world need is yet ANOTHER violent muslim kleptocracy, like the "liberated" palestinian state is likely to be. What is needed is for this conflict to end. Requiring a specific form of government is just another hurdle or excuse.

[headscratcher4]

Why is the arresting of terrorists of utmost importance? What is needed is that the leadership on both sides want peace.

DD: my response would be somewhat different than Skeptic's here.

Why?

Because no leader in a democratic society -- and no matter how you slice it, Israel is far more democratic and representative in aspiration AND practice than are any of it's potential Arab negotiating partners or, to date, the PLO -- in no democratic society can the leadership sacrifice the support of the people, regardless of how much they want peace. In this situation, the Israelie government must end terrorism in order to win the support of the people -- or at the very least be seen to be trying to end terrorism. To the extent that the population fears terrorism and that they are the targets of terror, like any population so traumatized, they will do whatever they must to free themselves of that terror.

Now, I do not support Sharon. I think he has painted too many Arabs with the brush of terrorism. I think he has made nearly impossible demands on the Palistinian authority. However, he is a popularly elected Prime Minister -- polls show that his support is based upon the perception that he is dealing strongly with terrorism (as he defines it). The reality is that Sharon, or any Israelie government can and will only act if it feels not only that Terrorism is being dealt with AND that the nation of Israel will survive.

Given the commitment of Hamas and other organizations that countenence terrorism against civilians to the total distruction of Israel, and the inability Palistinian Authority to control these armed groups in its midst...what brave move would you have the Israeli P.M. Make?

Could a Danish Prime Minister negotiate with groups committed to the distruction of Denmark? Can any true leader negotiate away their country's existence? Remember Chekloslovakia in 1938?

Now, you may ultimately believe that Israel has no right to exist. THat is a different argument. However, Israel is there, its voters are committed to survival, and the "terrorists" are seen as a threat to that survival. That is why it must be dealt with.

[DanishDynamite]

headscratcher4:Why?

Because no leader in a democratic society -- and no matter how you slice it, Israel is far more democratic and representative in aspiration AND practice than are any of it's potential Arab negotiating partners or, to date, the PLO....Agree completely.
.... -- in no democratic society can the leadership sacrifice the support of the people, regardless of how much they want peace. In this situation, the Israelie government must end terrorism in order to win the support of the people -- or at the very least be seen to be trying to end terrorism. You are right. It would therefore seem that it is up to the leaders of Israel to explain to the people of Israel that the best way to end terrorism is to establish a Palestine state. It seems obvious to me, but of course, I don't live there.
To the extent that the population fears terrorism and that they are the targets of terror, like any population so traumatized, they will do whatever they must to free themselves of that terror. They have been "traumatized" for 20 years. 20 years. Surely there must be a voter or two who, given an explanation of options (endless terrorism and retribution vs. no terrorism in the long run) would see the light.
Now, I do not support Sharon. I think he has painted too many Arabs with the brush of terrorism. I think he has made nearly impossible demands on the Palistinian authority. However, he is a popularly elected Prime Minister -- polls show that his support is based upon the perception that he is dealing strongly with terrorism (as he defines it). The reality is that Sharon, or any Israelie government can and will only act if it feels not only that Terrorism is being dealt with AND that the nation of Israel will survive.His "tough" attitude doesn't seem to bring results, though. I wonder what a poll would say today.
Given the commitment of Hamas and other organizations that countenence terrorism against civilians to the total distruction of Israel, and the inability Palistinian Authority to control these armed groups in its midst...what brave move would you have the Israeli P.M. Make?Stop new settlements and start removing existing ones. Be willing to negotiate in regard to Jerusalem. In regard to Jerusalem, he should challenge the Palestinian leadership in regard to what it is they can't accept. Throw a carrot of substantial (financial) support for the building of Palestinian state into the fray.
Could a Danish Prime Minister negotiate with groups committed to the distruction of Denmark? Can any true leader negotiate away their country's existence? Remember Chekloslovakia in 1938? To my knowledge, the Palestinian leadership is not commited to the destruction of Israel. Obviously, a peace settle ment should include guarantees of acceptance of each others existence and bilateral relations.
Now, you may ultimately believe that Israel has no right to exist. THat is a different argument. However, Israel is there, its voters are committed to survival, and the "terrorists" are seen as a threat to that survival. That is why it must be dealt with. Of course I think that Israel should exist. And I think it should at least have the same area as originally decreed. However, I also think that a Palestine state should exist.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata



AUP is a person who thinks Holocaust was "overdone" ( he apologized for that word later, he just meant it was exploited and abused for Israel's gain, and that it was no big deal, anyway).



Don't tell lies and misrepresent me, especially on such matters. In no way did I ever say 'It was no big deal, anyway'.



He is also someone who makes the same accusations against Israel over and over even after others have refuted them. He does not answer the refutation, he goes on to post them elsewhere, a tad later. One example is the "Arabs are not allowed to buy land in Israel" Electrix corrected him on one thread, and he never responded to her after she posted at least 3 additional posts over the next few days.
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18464&perpage=40&pagenumber=3 That did not stop him from posting the same assertion in another thread later. http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19826&perpage=40&pagenumber=2 When I reminded him about that, he said he was reasearching the issue, which apparently does not stop him from posting previously refuted statements. http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19510&perpage=40&pagenumber=2



Could you please check your dates, I believe I did not repost after I said I intended to take the matter further in the future.



In another such thing he did in this very thread, is this "Israel targets reporters". Skeptic posted an analyisis here http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=377909&highlight=reporter#post377909 Of course, AUP went on to make the claim elsewhere, entirely disregarding what he read.



Skeptic gave his opion, he did not refute it, at least to my satisfaction. His opinion was that you cannot shoot a single shot from a tank or APC to target a reporter. My contention is that in such instances, which have been documented on other occasions, is that there has been indiscriminate machine gun fire that is extremely hazardous with the potential to easily kill and injure people.



Some people listen to others and reassess their assumptions. AUP just posts the same old refuted claims. The favorite things I saw so far, in addition to what I mentioned above
Jews use Holocaust to get money out of non Jews and blackmail countries to support Israel
Sharon had a big smile when he went on the Wailing Wall anticipating deaths of thousands
Sharon wants to annex all Palestinian territories and wipe out the Palestinians
Israel is stealing water from Palestinians
US army is either poor starving people forced to war or blood thirsty war criminals- whichever article he stumbled on that day.



They are not refuted, not to my satisfaction. If you want to start a thread on each of these claims, please do so.



There are many others. His posts are quite boringly predictable.

Here is a thread http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15464 in which he is unable to admit that if a book is promoted on Neo Nazi and Holocaust denying sites and crititicized in the media, perhaps the book is a little skewed. It is like relying on "Critical examination of Psychics" if it was endorsed and promoted by John Edward and Sylvia Browne. One would think some alarm bells would ring.

You have also been predictable. Your first post, I could not believe, was one in which Rikzilla asked for a rebuttal of Palestinian claims of Israeli harrassment and discrimination. Your response was to provide links to Pro-Israeli propaganda sites. I had just been having an intensive debate with Ben on aspects of this issue, and to find that a so called skeptic could wave aside a complex issue with such little thought amazed me.

The book, which I find interesting, is promoted on Holocaust denying sites, why I don't know, as it never once denies the Holocaust. In fact, it wants to return to the Holocaust the dignity it's victims deserve, rather than have it appropriated for money making blackmail schemes and to advance the 'war on terror'.

I heard a radio interview just the other night do just that, to the amazement of the interviewer, who thought he was doing an interview on the holocaust itself, not furthering a Zionist political agenda.

If you look around, there are other reviews of this book that are quite serious, and are critical of it in the true sense. It is quite brief, it appears to have some minor factual errors, and the author is quite emotional in his arguments. It does, however, show how absurd the whole Holocaust industry has become. The invitiation to the opening of the holocaust museum in New York, for example, was accompanied by an invitation to 'Rock the Night Away' afterwards.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


C'mon now. No one plays the "victim card" more often than the Palestinian Arabs. How many discussions have we had going back how many hundreds or thousands of years?

I would say they both play it, only one side has more appearance of being victim than the other. I would say the side that has nukes and the side that has rifles and home made rockets that look like the result of a high school project are an indication of who is the victim and who is not.

however, I don't recall the Palestinians claiming grievences going back more than the start of the Zionist movement. They were, however, a part of the Ottoman empire for many hundreds of years.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Equating the Protocols with the Holocaust saddens me more than I can describe.

I'd better get off the pc and go for a walk...

I am sorry if I have given that impression. I was not trying to do so. The protocols are an out and out fraud, the holocaust was a genuine event in history that involved the deaths of millions of innocents.

This was not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make was that both sides are using the education system to brainwash their young. The intent is the same, to destroy the ability to think critically about their situation and how it can be solved. Both sides are using different tools to achieve the same end result.

The Holocaust has been turned into a justification for immoral aims, just as the the Protocols has been. To brainwash the young.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by JamesM


Splutter.

You know, most of the time, I quite like reading your posts, AUP. I mean, I don't normally agree with them, but who wants to read stuff they agree with all the time?

But perhaps you might acknowledge that there's a bit of a difference between teaching that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true - which is a lie - and teaching that nothing as terrible as the Holocaust has happened in history - for which you could construct a strong argument, at least?

edited to fix syntax

Please read my reply to Cleopatra.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Skeptic

I am not sure that Unique is an antisemite.

It seems to me that he quits the debate really soon lately and he starts playing. I do it myself sometimes, especially when I am tired but I would never,EVER, say "jokes" about drinking arabic blood etc etc if I was addressing to Palestinians ( I am addressing to Syrians that are not personally involved into the matter).

My family was involved in the Holocaust and I am getting so sad when I read comments like this that I can't find the courage to reply.

I do not play, but I do find the structure of this board does inhibit the ability to have a proper debate. I discovered soon after I joined that previous debates, that people have put a lot of time and effort into, are no opened up all over again by a new intake of skeptics. To have to go over all the previous debates again is very tiring. To have to research all the arguments is very time consuming. To have threads that go off in a hundred and one directions all at once is very tiring, trying to keep track of all the arguments. To try to moderate ones tone to the many different personalities is very difficult. One person may be very sincere in their questions or points, and trying to keep a civilised tone, while the very next will be waving a red rag at a bull.

Well maybe I do 'play' sometimes, but I would say I react according to kind. If I find a post is pig ignorant, I will follow in their direction, hoping that an equally absurd post will point out their own absurdity.

[renata]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Don't tell lies and misrepresent me, especially on such matters. In no way did I ever say 'It was no big deal, anyway'.




Well, this is what you did say about Holocaust (all direct quotes)

"The holocaust is being used as a political tool right now, when it is claimed it is unique in history as the worst act of inhumanity"

"The point is, that there have been massacres in history that have killed millions. To then take one of these massacres and use it for political purposes, that is, "this is the worst", is not moral. "

"The Holocaust serves a political purpose now. There are many atrocities in history that are terrible, to say the Holocaust is the worst is to participate in a sick game."


"I will buy a book I was reading in the bookshop the other day, written by a jew, about how the holocaust has become an industry. I am not saying it never happened. I am saying it has been overdone. because of the holocaust, you can't criticise Israel. etc."

"i realise the word 'overdone' was perhaps not the right one. I apologise if that was taken to imply the effects on those involved was devestating. perhaps a better phrase would be 'hijacked and exploited'. However, you would also know that hitler also killed millions more russians, and also killed the socialists, the handicapped, homosexuals and others. As finklestein points out, the other victims of the holocaust have been airbrushed out of the picture and the event hijacked.

To hijack a tragedy for other purposes is immoral."


So you did not say it was no big deal, you said it was hijacked and exploited.




Could you please check your dates, I believe I did not repost after I said I intended to take the matter further in the future.

You did post these claims after Electrix refuted your argument. You did not repost them after I brought that matter to your attention the third time.





You have also been predictable. Your first post, I could not believe, was one in which Rikzilla asked for a rebuttal of Palestinian claims of Israeli harrassment and discrimination. Your response was to provide links to Pro-Israeli propaganda sites.




First of all, it was not my first post. Second of all, Rikzilla asked for a debunking of anti Israel myths. I directed him to a *gasp* pro Israel site which does like that. After you were upset about it, rikzilla posted this "Perhaps it is propaganda, but it's a site that addresses these questions from a pro-Israel viewpoint and it seved my purpose well. Often when one is attempting to counter propaganda one must use propaganda of the opposing side."

So I posted exactly the source he asked for, and he confirmed it. I am not sure of your gripe here, then.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata



Well, this is what you did say about Holocaust (all direct quotes)

"The holocaust is being used as a political tool right now, when it is claimed it is unique in history as the worst act of inhumanity"

"The point is, that there have been massacres in history that have killed millions. To then take one of these massacres and use it for political purposes, that is, "this is the worst", is not moral. "

"The Holocaust serves a political purpose now. There are many atrocities in history that are terrible, to say the Holocaust is the worst is to participate in a sick game."


"I will buy a book I was reading in the bookshop the other day, written by a jew, about how the holocaust has become an industry. I am not saying it never happened. I am saying it has been overdone. because of the holocaust, you can't criticise Israel. etc."

"i realise the word 'overdone' was perhaps not the right one. I apologise if that was taken to imply the effects on those involved was devestating. perhaps a better phrase would be 'hijacked and exploited'. However, you would also know that hitler also killed millions more russians, and also killed the socialists, the handicapped, homosexuals and others. As finklestein points out, the other victims of the holocaust have been airbrushed out of the picture and the event hijacked.

To hijack a tragedy for other purposes is immoral."


So you did not say it was no big deal, you said it was hijacked and exploited.



I fail to see what is wrong with any of my statements above.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata



First of all, it was not my first post. Second of all, Rikzilla asked for a debunking of anti Israel myths. I directed him to a *gasp* pro Israel site which does like that. After you were upset about it, rikzilla posted this "Perhaps it is propaganda, but it's a site that addresses these questions from a pro-Israel viewpoint and it seved my purpose well. Often when one is attempting to counter propaganda one must use propaganda of the opposing side."

So I posted exactly the source he asked for, and he confirmed it. I am not sure of your gripe here, then.

The first post I read from you on the issue.

And *gasp* the holocaust industry is referred to on propaganda sites too. I have not, however, used those references in regards to this issue.

I have used propaganda sites for other threads, but only when I thought that what they were presenting was plausible. That is, I do not use any information from them uncritically.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


The first post I read from you on the issue.

And *gasp* the holocaust industry is referred to on propaganda sites too. I have not, however, used those references in regards to this issue.

I have used propaganda sites for other threads, but only when I thought that what they were presenting was plausible. That is, I do not use any information from them uncritically.

Don’t forget that the avoided topic of the Arab league creating the POL to destroy Israel when they failed to do in free wars and years of terrorist attacks.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


Don’t forget that the avoided topic of the Arab league creating the POL to destroy Israel when they failed to do in free wars and years of terrorist attacks.
I have not avoided that issue at all, and in fact started a thread about what reaction Israel expected when it created itself illegally would have been. They certainly expected war.

Israel, exists, the Arabs, for the most part, appear to accept that. It is time for Israel to accept the right of a viable state of Palestine to exist also.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


IThe Holocaust has been turned into a justification for immoral aims, just as the the Protocols has been. To brainwash the young.

You are wrong Unique. If you ever visited Israel and you paid a visit to Yad Vassem you would realize how we use Holocaust ;as a reminder of what our ancestors have been threw and as reminder that we have to be on the alert.

None has ever said that we have invaded the West Bank because of the Holocaust. We have invaded the West Bank because we got involved in a War.

It wasn't the first time in History that people were massacred indeed but what differs the Holocaust from similar genocides is the fact that it was performed in an industrialized way ; to kill as many as possible and to take full advantage of these deaths that's why a great part of the Holocaust was about Medical experiements and experiments of eugenics.

I don't know any other case in History that the people were used first as guinea pigs and then cremated in the ovens...

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

I have not avoided that issue at all, and in fact started a thread about what reaction Israel expected when it created itself illegally would have been. They certainly expected war.

Israel, exists, the Arabs, for the most part, appear to accept that. It is time for Israel to accept the right of a viable state of Palestine to exist also.

They where granted their own state by the UN the Arabs whished for them not to have one and their support of terrorist attacks in Israel shows that they haven’t given up on their goals to destroy Israel.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


You are wrong Unique. If you ever visited Israel and you paid a visit to Yad Vassem you would realize how we use Holocaust ;as a reminder of what our ancestors have been threw and as reminder that we have to be on the alert.

None has ever said that we have invaded the West Bank because of the Holocaust. We have invaded the West Bank because we got involved in a War.

It wasn't the first time in History that people were massacred indeed but what differs the Holocaust from similar genocides is the fact that it was performed in an industrialized way ; to kill as many as possible and to take full advantage of these deaths that's why a great part of the Holocaust was about Medical experiements and experiments of eugenics.

I don't know any other case in History that the people were used first as guinea pigs and then cremated in the ovens...

And this is acknowledged in that book. Don't forget, his mother was a survivor.

All massacres are unique in their own terrible way. Japan also performed terrible medical experiments on prisoners, much worse than those done by the Nazis, IIRC. The US also made sure it grabbed the records made from those experiments.

To try to say that because one massacre was worse than another because of it's features is not moral.

What is being used is the Holocaust to justify

1. Blackmailing Switzerland into paying billions of reparations, at a massive cost, when the US, which performed similar acts was not touched, is morally bankrupt.
2. Taking ownership of the Holocaust, when millions of others who were not Jewish died. The eugenics were performed, IIRC, on the handicapped, who could have been from any ethnic background.
3. Using the Holocaust to justify current political causes. I read about it, and then, lo and behold, when I just happen to jump in the car and turn on the radio, there is a spokesman from the Simon Weisenthal centre doing just that. The war on terrorism and the Holocaust are now the one cause.

[Baker]

Just read the The Palestinian National Charter clearly shows their goal of taking back all of the original Palestinian.

Article 15:
The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/plocov.htm

[a_unique_person]

Article 24:
The Palestinian people believe in the principles of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and in the right of all peoples to exercise them.



And Zionism was created to take the land from the people who lived in Palestine.

The charter, much like a constitution, was amended subsequently, much as the US has amendments to it's constitution.

Much is happening on both sides to further their own causes. Already the Palestinians have taken a position to accept the first stage of the road map without condition.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


And this is acknowledged in that book. Don't forget, his mother was a survivor.

All massacres are unique in their own terrible way. Japan also performed terrible medical experiments on prisoners, much worse than those done by the Nazis, IIRC. The US also made sure it grabbed the records made from those experiments.

To try to say that because one massacre was worse than another because of it's features is not moral.

What is being used is the Holocaust to justify

1. Blackmailing Switzerland into paying billions of reparations, at a massive cost, when the US, which performed similar acts was not touched, is morally bankrupt.
2. Taking ownership of the Holocaust, when millions of others who were not Jewish died. The eugenics were performed, IIRC, on the handicapped, who could have been from any ethnic background.
3. Using the Holocaust to justify current political causes. I read about it, and then, lo and behold, when I just happen to jump in the car and turn on the radio, there is a spokesman from the Simon Weisenthal centre doing just that. The war on terrorism and the Holocaust are now the one cause.

Let's make, from my part, something straight here. I consider Finkelstein's book as the Modern Protocols but if anybody here wants to discuss either the Old or the Modern Protocols is always my guest.

Second and most important. Unique, you make an enormous logical mistake here.

You compare something that was invented to promote hatred ( The protocols) with an Historical event, and you make conclusions...

If I choose not to see malice in this , what is left Unique? Shall I believe that you suffer from serious deficiencies in making logical assumptions?

Medical Experiments. It's a common knowledge that AFTER the Holocaust many countries were jealous of the heroic nazi deeds and tried to immitate them. The fact is that Nazis were the first who performed an industrialized massacre. Other ethnic groups were massacred by the nazis indeed but they died mostly in labour camps.

Properties. I belong to those that they have sued the Swiss government for providing shelter to the thieves of my family's property in Salonika. I don't see why this makes me evil or anything. Some people have benefited from our wealth. We want it back because my mother, my sister and I are the legitimate benefactors. Simple things!

None is using the Holocaust to play smart in the politics, apart from the deniers of course...if we wanted to use The Holocaust Unique, we would find it as a good excuse for not negotiating with Mazen who happens to be a Holocaust denier...

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


And Zionism was created to take the land from the people who lived in Palestine.

The charter, much like a constitution, was amended subsequently, much as the US has amendments to it's constitution.

Much is happening on both sides to further their own causes. Already the Palestinians have taken a position to accept the first stage of the road map without condition.

Unable so far to destroy Israel on the battlefield the Arabs are now trying to overcome and destroy Israel by their acknowledged "policy of stages". That policy is to get as much land as possible carved out of Israel "by peaceful and diplomatic" means, so as to make Israel indefensible and softened up for the final assault. The web of lies and myths that the Arab propaganda machine has created plays an important role in the unrelenting quest to destroy the State of Israel.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Let's make, from my part, something straight here. I consider Finkelstein's book as the Modern Protocols but if anybody here wants to discuss either the Old or the Modern Protocols is always my guest.



I don't recall anything like a blood ritual or claims of jewish world domination in there.



Second and most important. Unique, you make an enormous logical mistake here.

You compare something that was invented to promote hatred ( The protocols) with an Historical event, and you make conclusions...



An historical event that is not treated as such, but is appropriated for other means.



If I choose not to see malice in this , what is left Unique? Shall I believe that you suffer from serious deficiencies in making logical assumptions?



If I rob a bank with a stolen gun, or a gun a own, I rob a bank each time. One tool is morally ok, one is not, the end result is immoral in each case.



Medical Experiments. It's a common knowledge that AFTER the Holocaust many countries were jealous of the heroic nazi deeds and tried to immitate them. The fact is that Nazis were the first who performed an industrialized massacre. Other ethnic groups were massacred by the nazis indeed but they died mostly in labour camps.



Yes, it was industrialised. I cannot see that that makes it worse than the bloody gore between the Hutus and Tutsis, in which people were hacked to death with machetes. Each is awful in it's own way.



Properties. I belong to those that they have sued the Swiss government for providing shelter to the thieves of my family's property in Salonika. I don't see why this makes me evil or anything. Some people have benefited from our wealth. We want it back because my mother, my sister and I are the legitimate benefactors. Simple things!



Just as much money was sent to US banks for safe keeping while the war was on. For Switzerland, which was blackmailed into performing an audit of every bank account opened around the war years, this audit alone cost millions, and the agreed reparation, which in the end had nothing to do with actual money determined to be held by the banks, was in the amount of billions. That is, the payment received had nothing to do with the actual amounts that may have been claimed, Switzerland just decided it was cheaper to pay up than have to cope with a US boycott of it's products.

This tarnishing of the memories of the victims of the holocaust is terrible. It was the Holocaust industry that raised this as an issue, not the anti-semites, by making this claim in the first place. At the same time, no corresponding claim has been made on the US, that it audit every single account that was opened at the same time. The US, by the way, was also used as a safe haven for Jewish money during the war.



None is using the Holocaust to play smart in the politics, apart from the deniers of course...if we wanted to use The Holocaust Unique, we would find it as a good excuse for not negotiating with Mazen who happens to be a Holocaust denier...

That is not true. As I said, I was amazed to hear someone from the Simon Weisenthal doing exactly what they book claimed has being done, on my own car radio, on a program I turned on purely by chance. The War on Terror was clearly and unambigously being related to the Holocaust.

As for your home, I have no argument with that. It is just that that is not the only result of these claims. Land appropriated by communist governments in Eastern Europe is also under claim now, in countries that are only just surviving financially. Is there a point where the process will stop, or be applied equally, not just to those who can be bullied.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


Unable so far to destroy Israel on the battlefield the Arabs are now trying to overcome and destroy Israel by their acknowledged "policy of stages". That policy is to get as much land as possible carved out of Israel "by peaceful and diplomatic" means, so as to make Israel indefensible and softened up for the final assault. The web of lies and myths that the Arab propaganda machine has created plays an important role in the unrelenting quest to destroy the State of Israel.

Well, I can't see them taking on a nuclear power tomorrow, or the day after.

Perhaps you can provide some more proof than just your own opinion on this matter.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Well, I can't see them taking on a nuclear power tomorrow, or the day after.

Perhaps you can provide some more proof than just your own opinion on this matter.

After trying to destroy Israel through conquest failed they created the POL to do the job for them that is a fact.
The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I don't recall anything like a blood ritual or claims of jewish world domination in there.

That's why I called this book MODERN protocols... We know that fools exist in our era but they are just willing to be believe in different kind of rubbish.

An historical event that is not treated as such, but is appropriated for other means.

Fallacy. If you believe this, stop mistreating Holocaust, it's easy.


If I rob a bank with a stolen gun, or a gun a own, I rob a bank each time. One tool is morally ok, one is not, the end result is immoral in each case.

Irrelevant stupidity.

Yes, it was industrialised. I cannot see that that makes it worse than the bloody gore between the Hutus and Tutsis, in which people were hacked to death with machetes. Each is awful in it's own way.

Another case of serious deficiency in reading comprehension...None, apart from you, claims that The Holocaust was the only case of genocide in History. What makes The Holocaust unique in History is that for the first time, a genocide was performed in an industrialized way.
Do you think that you can finally understand this?

Just as much money was sent to US banks for safe keeping while the war was on. For Switzerland, which was blackmailed into performing an audit of every bank account opened around the war years, this audit alone cost millions, and the agreed reparation, which in the end had nothing to do with actual money determined to be held by the banks, was in the amount of billions. That is, the payment received had nothing to do with the actual amounts that may have been claimed, Switzerland just decided it was cheaper to pay up than have to cope with a US boycott of it's products.

Tell those stories to a Swiss, he might wake up from the illusions that his country was a neutral country during the war.
There is an old racist saying but very much of my taste. " You wouldn't want a Jewish Lawyer after you..."

That is not true. As I said, I was amazed to hear someone from the Simon Weisenthal doing exactly what they book claimed has being done, on my own car radio, on a program I turned on purely by chance. The War on Terror was clearly and unambigously being related to the Holocaust.

Your real problem or at least one of them, is that you choose to get informed by marginal Media sources... I think that you believe in conspiracy theories too.

As for your home, I have no argument with that. It is just that that is not the only result of these claims. Land appropriated by communist governments in Eastern Europe is also under claim now, in countries that are only just surviving financially. Is there a point where the process will stop, or be applied equally, not just to those who can be bullied

I wish the best to those that have similar issues. If I were you I would wish that we could win. This would open the way to other misfortunate people to claim their properties.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


That's why I called this book MODERN protocols... We know that fools exist in our era but they are just willing to be believe in different kind of rubbish.



Fallacy. If you believe this, stop mistreating Holocaust, it's easy.




Irrelevant stupidity.



But you have not provided one rebuttal to any of his points.




Another case of serious deficiency in reading comprehension...None, apart from you, claims that The Holocaust was the only case of genocide in History. What makes The Holocaust unique in History is that for the first time, a genocide was performed in an industrialized way.
Do you think that you can finally understand this?



Yes, I have never denied this. And Tutus and Tutsis was the first that used machetes. The Nazi solution used the latest technology, which made it more efficient.



Tell those stories to a Swiss, he might wake up from the illusions that his country was a neutral country during the war.
There is an old racist saying but very much of my taste. " You wouldn't want Jewish Lawyer after you..."



I don't harbour any illusions as to the morality of Swiss Bankers. However, in this case, the payout was obtained by blackmail without recourse to what was a moral obligation. The US, curiously enough, has been spared this attack, and it too had large funds deposited in it's banks for safe keeping.



Your real problem or at least one of them, is that you choose to get informed by marginal Media sources... I think that you believe in conspiracy theories too.



I faithfully read and believed the news from the mainstream. It turns out it was a load of rubbish. I delved into the more serious news channels, such as broadsheet rather than tabloid newspapers, serious current affairs programs, and found the story was not quite what I had been lead to believe.

The ZOGS are out there, but I find them laughable. I have never found pursuasive evidence that the holocaust did not happen, or that the Jews run the world. I do find the Jews have been big in movies or banking. This, while it is influential, is not going to be enough to run the world.



I wish the best to those that have similar issues. If I were you I would wish that we could win. This would open the way to other misfortunate people to claim their properties.

Like the right of return for Palestinians?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
But you have not provided one rebuttal to any of his points.

Do you invite me to discuss The Protocols?

Yes, I have never denied this.

So, it's time to stop using it then.

I don't harbour any illusions as to the morality of Swiss Bankers. However, in this case, the payout was obtained by blackmail without recourse to what was a moral obligation. The US, curiously enough, has been spared this attack, and it too had large funds deposited in it's banks for safe keeping.

Being a lawyer myself, I have heard many things about the practices we use. People who loose cases in court tend to imply that it wasn't because they have done something illegal but because the lawyer has blackmailed the jury...
Doing your job efficiently doesn't make you an evil person. We persuaded the Swiss government that they had to cooperate.I know very well about Switzerland because my grandparents and their ancestors were diamond and Art dealers-extremely evil persons... Everything ended up in Swiss banks... If I find out that some of our property is in the States, I will go after it, I promise.

I faithfully read and believed the news from the mainstream. It turns out it was a load of rubbish. I delved into the more serious news channels, such as broadsheet rather than tabloid newspapers, serious current affairs programs, and found the story was not quite what I had been lead to believe.

You are not the only one in the forum , you know. I don't want to speak on other people's behalf, so I will speak for myself. Have you heard anynody else here to criticise Israel the way I do?

I do find the Jews have been big in movies or banking. This, while it is influential, is not going to be enough to run the world.

There have been big in Law, Science and Chess. Are you sure they don't rule the world?

Like the right of return for Palestinians?

While I was typing this I was smiling because I was certain that you would say this. You have me for an easy target Unique.
Of course! And I hope that they will do better than the poor Cypriots that according to the Anan plan of last February they got nothing...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Do you invite me to discuss The Protocols?



I think "the holocaust industry" and "The Protocols" are two completely different bodies of work. One is the product of people out to stir up trouble by concocting lies, the other is a serious collection of essays on an issue that lies close to a persons heart. In fact, one of his major contentions is that the pursuit of financial redress will cause a rise in anti-semitism, that is, it will be counter productive. He feels this process is already in train.



So, it's time to stop using it then.



Me, or the "industry". I contend still, that to try to raise the Holocaust as a special event that trancends all others, is not morally defensible.



Being a lawyer myself, I have heard many things about the practices we use. People who loose cases in court tend to imply that it wasn't because they have done something illegal but because the lawyer has blackmailed the jury...
Doing your job efficiently doesn't make you an evil person. We persuaded the Swiss government that they had to cooperate.I know very well about Switzerland because my grandparents and their ancestors were diamond and Art dealers-extremely evil persons... Everything ended up in Swiss banks... If I find out that some of our property is in the States, I will go after it, I promise.



But the settlement that was reached had nothing to do with a legal process, and everything to do with blackmail.



You are not the only one in the forum , you know. I don't want to speak on other people's behalf, so I will speak for myself. Have you heard anynody else here to criticise Israel the way I do?



No, and as you are a part time Israeli, it is like a breath of fresh air. Too often, the debate reminds me of the old westerns, with the Cowboys vs. The Indians



There have been big in Law, Science and Chess. Are you sure they don't rule the world?



Yes, quite sure. I see influences of Jewish involvement, but then, I see influences of other groups as well. I do not believe there is an organised Jewish lobby to run the world, but that there is one to influence American Policy in the Middle East.



While I was typing this I was smiling because I was certain that you would say this. You have me for an easy target Unique.
Of course! And I hope that they will do better than the poor Cypriots that according to the Anan plan of last February they got nothing...

So, what is it to be then? Do the Palestinians also get their land back? Or do they not? If they do not, then the Holocaust Industry should stop pressing for it's own to get their claims back.

[Cleopatra]

I think that I should ask Col.Bidlack to provide me with a certificate for attending advanced classes of Legal terms in this forum.

"Partime Israeli" is a new one and by far the best.


Originally posted by a_unique_person

I think "the holocaust industry" and "The Protocols" are two completely different bodies of work

To tell you the truth Unique, my knowledge of psychiatry doesn't go as far as to the point that permits me to tell if hatred and self-hatred are identical or just similar clinical cases. If they are identical, I am right if they are just similar, Finkelstein is just another nut case.

Me, or the "industry". I contend still, that to try to raise the Holocaust as a special event that trancends all others, is not morally defensible.

You insist on using Holocaust as an arguement.Are you sort of arguments? I offered my services to another thread but you ignored them... Why don't you compose a book under the title " The Holocaust to the Service of leftist " intelligentia"? Although leftist AND intelligentia is an oxymoron...

But the settlement that was reached had nothing to do with a legal process, and everything to do with blackmail.

I take this as a proof that you have no idea about legal procedures and AGAIN I refuse to see malice in it... otherwise I will have to make assumptions about the existence of serious deficiencies again...

No, and as you are a part time Israeli, it is like a breath of fresh air. Too often, the debate reminds me of the old westerns, with the Cowboys vs. The Indians

Indeed, if a newbie reads your posts, he would think that you are composing your messages from a refugee camp in Palestine...

So, what is it to be then? Do the Palestinians also get their land back? Or do they not? If they do not, then the Holocaust Industry should stop pressing for it's own to get their claims back.

I don't want my mother's house in Salonika back, althought it's was a huge one and it's still there. I want my family's property that made Hitler's Executioners wealthy. As for what should become with the Palestinian refugees we will discuss this to the other thread, at least this is where I intend to post my opinion.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

To tell you the truth Unique, my knowledge of psychiatry doesn't go as far as to the point that permits me to tell if hatred and self-hatred are identical or just similar clinical cases. If they are identical, I am right if they are just similar, Finkelstein is just another nut case.



Thank you. You appear to believe he is a person who hates being Jewish. I don't get that out of his book, myself.



I take this as a proof that you have no idea about legal procedures and AGAIN I refuse to see malice in it... otherwise I will have to make assumptions about the existence of serious deficiencies again...



Organising boycotts of the country of Switzerland does not sound like a normal legal tactic. Even normal lawyers do not normally stoop that low.




Indeed, if a newbie reads your posts, he would think that you are composing your messages from a refugee camp in Palestine...



Well, we can disabuse them of that notion right here and now.




I don't want my mother's house in Salonika back, althought it's was a huge one and it's still there. I want my family's property that made Hitler's Executioners wealthy. As for what should become with the Palestinian refugees we will discuss this to the other thread, at least this is where I intend to post my opinion.

In the Swiss case, the executioners were not the Swiss, and Germany has already paid reparations for the Holocaust, although if they were paid widely enough is apparently a matter of debate. Either way, the Swiss did not actually kill any Jews.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Thank you. You appear to believe he is a person who hates being Jewish. I don't get that out of his book, myself.

Thank God you recognized me the right to have an opinion on my own without asking me to provide you a link for that!!! Thanks Unique!

Organising boycotts of the country of Switzerland does not sound like a normal legal tactic. Even normal lawyers do not normally stoop that low.

I know that you would prefer that we wore jackets with explosives and start killing innocent civilians in the central squares of Verne, Geneva, Lausanne etc etc etc but you know the bad Israelites... we are not saints like the Arabs.

In the Swiss case, the executioners were not the Swiss, and Germany has already paid reparations for the Holocaust, although if they were paid widely enough is apparently a matter of debate. Either way, the Swiss did not actually kill any Jews.


Unique FYI , Germany didn't pay compensations specifically to the Jews...but to all the war victims.
Second. Why you always have to play dirty? Where did I say that the Swiss killed anybody?
Third. Apart from our property there is something we want MORE:

We want back the parts of body made of gold( TEETH FOR EXAMPLE) that the monstrous Nazis removed from our people before torturing and then cremating them.
:mad:

For me this is a matter of pride and a life purpose.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Thank God you recognized me the right to have an opinion on my own without asking me to provide you a link for that!!! Thanks Unique!



When you asses a personality, it can only be subjective, I suppose.



I know that you would prefer that we wore jackets with explosives and start killing innocent civilians in the central squares of Verne, Geneva, Lausanne etc etc etc but you know the bad Israelites... we are not saints like the Arabs.



I have already given my opinion on that. The arabs are more crude in their expression of their desires, but israel is more sophisticated.



Unique FYI , Germany didn't pay compensations specifically to the Jews...but to all the war victims.
Second. Why you always have to play dirty? Where did I say that the Swiss killed anybody?
Third. Apart from our property there is something we want MORE:



To all war victims, but I believe, from the book, there were some who were paid more than others. That is, native Germans got more than, say, a Pole.

I misunderstood this 'I want my family's property that made Hitler's Executioners wealthy. '



We want back the parts of body made of gold( TEETH FOR EXAMPLE) that the monstrous Nazis removed from our people before torturing and then cremating them.
:mad:





The fabled Nazi Gold. There is no proof the Swiss have it, or that it can even be recovered if it does exist.

To punish the Swiss because they may have it is not a just policy. The Germans have made their reparations payments.

Who else is to be pursued?

The trail of the fruits of the terrors of Nazism, such as the gold, has long gone cold, I believe.

The best remedy, then, is education of the evil that man is capable of, and the lessons that can be learned from it. The worst that can be done is to try to exact retribution where none is warranted. As Finkenstein(sp) points out, that leads to the path of reviving anti-semitism.


For me this is a matter of pride and a life purpose. [/QUOTE]

[Cleopatra]

It seems to me that to you, Unique, "The New Protocols" by Norman Finkelstein are more than a book; it's the Bible you were looking for to cover your thoughts and feelings about Jews that for a reason I can't understand, you hesitate to show.

I will repeat it again, I will never get tired.

Why do you need to cover your ideas? Who do you think is going to harm you?Speak up, say what you really believe and I will stand next to you to help you defend your ideas. I have great respect to those that they dare to speak up.

Come -on Unique say it! You will feel better.

Edited to add. I didn't put myself to the pain of trying to answer to the rubbish you copy from this book. A visit to the official site of the WJC is enough to inform anybody who is interested in the subject.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
It seems to me that to you, Unique, "The New Protocols" by Norman Finkelstein are more than a book; it's the Bible you were looking for to cover your thoughts and feelings about Jews that for a reason I can't understand, you hesitate to show.

I will repeat it again, I will never get tired.

Why do you need to cover your ideas? Who do you think is going to harm you?Speak up, say what you really believe and I will stand next to you to help you defend your ideas. I have great respect to those that they dare to speak up.

Come -on Unique say it! You will feel better.

Edited to add. I didn't put myself to the pain of trying to answer to the rubbish you copy from this book. A visit to the official site of the WJC is enough to inform anybody who is interested in the subject.

That is what Skeptic has accused me of doing, digging for dirt till I find something that expresses an unspeakable belief.

Let me just point out a few indicental things. My maternal grandmother was a german jew, but she left germany while she was still young, married an Irishman and converted to xianity. I remember still when I was young having a bully walk up to me in the street and accuse me of looking like a jew, like it was the worst thing in the world.

I don't actually hate jews, as much as Skeptic would like me to say so. There are plenty of Jews around my city, and they don't appear to be any better or worse than any other ethnic or cultural group.

I think that this guy

http://www.musicjamboree.com/index.html

is a genious. Brought up as fundamentalist Jew, he kicked the habit, and is now a loose cannon on the Australian TV scene. I can identify with him, as I was brought up as a Catholic who believed all the religious doo-doo too, till I also kicked the habit.

The "Jew Town" video is a riot.

So, I don't believe I hate Jews, as such. Unfortunately, I cannot make Skeptic happy by claiming I have Jewish friends. They tend to live in a different part of our wonderful sprawling city of Melbourne.

What I don't like though, is being deceived. Just as I saw through the schemmozle of Catholicism, so I did with Israel. I had grown up a natural supporter of Israel. At about the same time that I was kicking the Catholic habit and it's dictates, I realised that maybe Israel was not all it purported to be either.

So the book about the "Holocaust" does not attack Jews as such. It instead attacks those Jews who believe they are entitled to exploit this tragic event for their own ends. When I heard that representative of the Simon Weisenthal Museum talking on the radio, he didn't sound like John Safran, that is sensible, skeptical, intelligent or interesting. He sounded just like the priests and nuns of the Catholic Church. Just out to twist facts around to suit an ideology, which is exactly what this book was saying was going on.

Anyway, so why did I buy this book. There has been a lot of debate on this issue, and it is one that I have been meaning to get to the bottom of for many years, but have not had the motivation to until the debates over the Israel/Palestine issue. It has been at the heart of one the major destabilising issues of the world.

Here was a book that addressed the use of emotional blackmail to further Israels cause. One of the reasons I was a supporter was that I felt that after the Holocaust, they were owed a place to live. Only, they didn't just leave it at that, they had to want it all. Even Ben_Gurion said it would be best to leave the West Bank. And it is the issue of the West Bank that has kept this issue festering for far too long.

If I was out to hate Jews, I don't think I would be debating them. I would be off at Storm Front, relaxing in a bath of mutual back slapping Jew Hating.

[a_unique_person]

Actually, I don't like any religious group getting in my face, if it is the Hare Krishnas to the stupid fundy preachers who appear in the city every so often.

There is one guy who stands there, reading the bible, in this totally pious, sanctimonious voice. "And then jesus, and the disciples, mmm, waa waa waa, mmumm, mmmumnle, eternal life, mff mff, waffle waffle, sayeth unto him, blah, blah blah.

I feel like picking up his PA tossing it on the ground.

The only ones I do respect are the quakers. They just sit there silently, with their little banner up, don't say a word, and have a chair their for you to sit on and join their protest on aboriginal rights, if you want to.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

What I don't like though, is being deceived. Just as I saw through the schemmozle of Catholicism, so I did with Israel. I had grown up a natural supporter of Israel. At about the same time that I was kicking the Catholic habit and it's dictates, I realised that maybe Israel was not all it purported to be either.


Sounds a bit like the rationale of an ex-smoker turned into an anti-smoking fanatic.

What I don't get is why you don't see through the schemmozle of the "Palestinian" hoax. Before they lost the 6 day war, they called themselves Arabs.

That being said, I have sympathy for Palestinian living conditions and cruelty suffered by them at the hands of the Israelis. I believe that the PLO brought much of this upon the Palestinian people by it's policy of terrorism which has spread to other Islamic fundamentalist groups.

I cannot support, however, giving them Palestine until the terrorism stops. I don't believe in making deals with terrorists ... period. I don't classify the Israel actions such as bulldozing Palestinian homes and so forth as terrorism, but as human rights violations committed by a government against a specific people. The Palestinian terrorists and their sympathizers don't care who they kill (as long as it is infidels) and all that comes out of their mouth is "hate, hate, hate". I don't get on an airplane wondering if a Jewish terrorist is going to hijack it.

Good thing I'm not the US President right now, huh? I'd have snipers out looking for Arafat and Sharon. The Palestinians and Jews might have a chance without these two a**holes.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal



Good thing I'm not the US President right now, huh? I'd have snipers out looking for Arafat and Sharon. The Palestinians and Jews might have a chance without these two a**holes.

Actually, having read that Sharon had to twist arms to even get stage one of the roadmap approved shows that he is more moderate, or more intelligent, or both, than many of his colleagues in cabinet.

I have also heard similar about Arafat.

A similar behaviour is also noticed in recent US presidential elections with the Republican candidates, a raging right wing hawk in the primaries turns into a loving, caring liberal during the election.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
That is what Skeptic has accused me of doing, digging for dirt till I find something that expresses an unspeakable belief.
I don't actually hate jews, as much as Skeptic would like me to say so. There are plenty of Jews around my city, and they don't appear to be any better or worse than any other ethnic or cultural group.

You see, Unique, you will have to search really hard to find a post of mine where I accuse you of hating Jews. However mad I might be when I compose a post, I am trained to be able to shut my mouth when it's neccessary.
What I don't like though, is being deceived. Just as I saw through the schemmozle of Catholicism, so I did with Israel. I had grown up a natural supporter of Israel. At about the same time that I was kicking the Catholic habit and it's dictates, I realised that maybe Israel was not all it purported to be either.

Who wants to be deceived? Have in mind though that people who have been threw this traumatic experience are kind of sealed by the events. Also have in mind that in their History Jews have experienced many genocides and this last one was the climax in a 2000 years period...So, it's not so difficult to persuade an Israelite that he is in danger and people are after him. You will have History and Propabilities with you...
So the book about the "Holocaust" does not attack Jews as such. It instead attacks those Jews who believe they are entitled to exploit this tragic event for their own ends. When I heard that representative of the Simon Weisenthal Museum talking on the radio, he didn't sound like John Safran, that is sensible, skeptical, intelligent or interesting. He sounded just like the priests and nuns of the Catholic Church. Just out to twist facts around to suit an ideology, which is exactly what this book was saying was going on.

Why do you make all of your assumptions based on ONE book and ONE idiot you have heard at the radio, Unique.
My grandfather used to warn me to be afraid of the wise who learned everything he knows by one book only!
You didn't have any problem to say that the Gold of the Jews is a Myth without thinking how people here would take it. For you it is enough that Finkelstein said it.
When we are talking about Gold we don't mean jewellry and gems but for symbolic reasons we want the body parts that have been removed from the victims before their execution. I know people who have seen their parents or the spouses be treated like this before they were guided to the gas chambers.
I don't like it when somebody is questioning events that have caused tremendous pain and humiliation and talking about myths just like this.
Anyway, so why did I buy this book. There has been a lot of debate on this issue, and it is one that I have been meaning to get to the bottom of for many years, but have not had the motivation to until the debates over the Israel/Palestine issue. It has been at the heart of one the major destabilising issues of the world.

I have bought the book myself, so what? Also I happen to have read Daniel Goldhagen's books, do I quote him every other minute? Why you insist on ONE BOOK? How you expect that people debate you seriously if you quote just one book as if it's your Holly Bible?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Who wants to be deceived? Have in mind though that people who have been threw this traumatic experience are kind of sealed by the events. Also have in mind that in their History Jews have experienced many genocides and this last one was the climax in a 2000 years period...So, it's not so difficult to persuade an Israelite that he is in danger and people are after him. You will have History and Propabilities with you...



And I can understand that, it doesn't mean I think it is correct. You will find, however, that Skeptic and his ilk are quick to beat me up for 'understanding' the Palestinian terrorists.



Why do you make all of your assumptions based on ONE book and ONE idiot you have heard at the radio, Unique.



Because it is not just one book, but also my experience.



My grandfather used to warn me to be afraid of the wise who learned everything he knows by one book only!
You didn't have any problem to say that the Gold of the Jews is a Myth without thinking how people here would take it. For you it is enough that Finkelstein said it.



I was using the term 'mythical Nazi gold' in a much more generic term than you were. There are rumours of Nazi treasures and gold buried all over Germany.



When we are talking about Gold we don't mean jewellry and gems but for symbolic reasons we want the body parts that have been removed from the victims before their execution. I know people who have seen their parents or the spouses be treated like this before they were guided to the gas chambers.
I don't like it when somebody is questioning events that have caused tremendous pain and humiliation and talking about myths just like this.



Once again, I don't question that it happened, or caused pain.



I have bought the book myself, so what? Also I happen to have read Daniel Goldhagen's books, do I quote him every other minute? Why you insist on ONE BOOK? How you expect that people debate you seriously if you quote just one book as if it's your Holly Bible?

I don't quote it every other minute. have you looked that the 'totally unconnected forum'. Unfortunately, Israel/Palestine is around to haunt us for many years to come.

As for a Holly Bible, when I can afford it I will buy yet more books on this subject, but for now, I have to pay my bills too. Books, unfotunately, do cost more in Australia.

It is a fact, however, that Israel is King of Rhetoric when it comes to the current debate. This book explains an important aspect of that rhetoric. And it is that powerful use of argument and swaying opinion that is convincing people what to believe on this issue. For example, Randfan only recently realised that Israel has used terrorism too, in the past. The image of a pristine and immaculate Israel is very easy to swallow, till one looks deeper.

I think I have said before, that I just want the arguments to be presented for what they are, the participants also. Yes, Israel's democracy is a better system of Government than it's neighbours. This does not, however, make it irreproachable when it comes to analysing the rights and wrongs of the issue.

It is also important to remember that underneath all the politics, ordinary people are suffering. I have been criticised in another thread for attacking Americans, and Kittynh has said that America is comprised of many different people, they cannot be judged all as one. Well, I don't try to do that to Americans, but I think Americans can apply the same principle to other nations too.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

It is a fact, however, that Israel is King of Rhetoric when it comes to the current debate. This book explains an important aspect of that rhetoric. And it is that powerful use of argument and swaying opinion that is convincing people what to believe on this issue. For example, Randfan only recently realised that Israel has used terrorism too, in the past. The image of a pristine and immaculate Israel is very easy to swallow, till one looks deeper.

Looks deeper then what?
The Arabs and their dictatorship governments, and the oppression they put on those they govern.
Those are the people you are agreeing with they also have fundraisers for Palestine suicide bombers.



I think I have said before, that I just want the arguments to be presented for what they are, the participants also. Yes, Israel's democracy is a better system of Government than it's neighbours. This does not, however, make it irreproachable when it comes to analysing the rights and wrongs of the issue.

You are only analyzing the Arab version of the conflict you need to start analyzing their history of lies and deceit.
I would love to go over it with you.
In addition, of course you failed to explain the Arab League creating the POL in 1964 then tried invading Israel twice since then to destroy them plus the war of attrition from 1967 to 1970.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


Looks deeper then what?
The Arabs and their dictatorship governments, and the oppression they put on those they govern.
Those are the people you are agreeing with they also have fundraisers for Palestine suicide bombers.


[B]

You are only analyzing the Arab version of the conflict you need to start analyzing their history of lies and deceit.
I would love to go over it with you.
In addition, of course you failed to explain the Arab League creating the POL in 1964 then tried invading Israel twice since then to destroy them plus the war of attrition from 1967 to 1970.

Lets try this then, all Israelis vote for Shas, won't even turn on a light on the sabbath, and wear funny hats and beards.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

you know the bad Israelites... we are not saints like the Arabs.

You will never be.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Baker

You are only analyzing the Arab version of the conflict you need to start analyzing their history of lies and deceit.

Racist and Sionist .

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

As for a Holly Bible, when I can afford it I will buy yet more books on this subject, but for now, I have to pay my bills too. Books, unfotunately, do cost more in Australia.

This is not a nice topic for joking AUP. I respect what you say but if I were you I 'd wait until I had the opportunity to read more books or until my local library brings them for me. When it comes to other people's pain I am sure that you will agree that we must be very careful...
It is a fact, however, that Israel is King of Rhetoric when it comes to the current debate. This book explains an important aspect of that rhetoric. .

Israel is King of Rhetoric indeed and Israelis too. But we have enough of arguments and we don't really need the Holocaust this is what the author of the modern protocols has failed to see. Arabs have done so many mistakes that we don't really need The Holocaust.

Yes, Israel's democracy is a better system of Government than it's neighbours. This does not, however, make it irreproachable when it comes to analysing the rights and wrongs of the issue.

I agree.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by hisham

Racist and [Z]ionist .

...but true.

As for "racist", that's rich coming from a Syrian, when Syria is perhaps the single most antisemitic country on the face of the earth right now (not that the rest of the Arab world is far behind for this hotly-contested title.)

We can start with Syria's ex-minister of defense, Mustafa Tlas, who published a popular book claiming jews use the blood of Muslims in ritual sacrifice, or Bashar Assad calling on the pope to start a Muslim-Christian holy war against the jews.

Just two of many examples, off the top of my head, of the unbelievable, genocidal, mideaval-era hatered the Arabs, and the Syrians in particular, harbor towards the jews.

And, no, NOT toward the "zionists", but toward jews in general. Tlas' book didn't claim "zionists" use the blood of muslims, but jews in general; similarly with Assad's call for a holy war against the jews "who deny Jesus".

As this shows, the truth is, the arabs don't give a damn about being racists--as long as the muslims are on top, of course, killng the infidels. It is, in fact, an essential part of muslim and arab culture. So why do they accuse others of it when they themselves have a society that's essentially built on it?

Simple. The Arabs learned that, lately, shouting "racist!" is an all-around effective PR move to silence opponents, especially against anybody who would expose the ugly face of the Arab world, or criticize it in any way. At least, that's the method used when the person isn't on Arab soil and therefore cannot be turned over to the secret police for more effective silencing methods.

Before that, it was "imperialist!" or "colonialist!"; never mind that the arabs colonized every piece of land they could get into their pan-arab empire since the 6th century; it sounds good to accuse others of it.

But with their record, why take any of these "accusations" seriously, considering the source? It's about as convincing as Marlon Brando accusing people of not keeping their weight down. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


This is not a nice topic for joking AUP. I respect what you say but if I were you I 'd wait until I had the opportunity to read more books or until my local library brings them for me. When it comes to other people's pain I am sure that you will agree that we must be very careful...



You are correct. A little tact goes a long way, especially with sensitive topics. I remember when I was young a friend telling me I was pretty tactless, and myself wondering, what does the word 'tact' mean.



Israel is King of Rhetoric indeed and Israelis too. But we have enough of arguments and we don't really need the Holocaust this is what the author of the modern protocols has failed to see. Arabs have done so many mistakes that we don't really need The Holocaust.



Which is the point of his book, why use it when there is no need? Only bad can come of it.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Skeptic

...but true.

As for "racist", that's rich coming from a Syrian, when Syria is perhaps the single most antisemitic country on the face of the earth right now (not that the rest of the Arab world is far behind for this hotly-contested title.)

You can use this method of propaganda with others who don't know the reality, how Syria can be anti-Semitic country and their people is Semite. While not all Jews are Semites, and not all people in the Arab countries are Semites, but all Syrian YES they are. And you know that, but trying to use the old and uncovered manners of Zionists to indicate others as antisemitics when they try to criticize Israel.

We can start with Syria's ex-minister of defense, Mustafa Tlas,

Not ex-minister, he is the actual minister of defense, Please stay up-to-date when try to lecture us. :D


who published a popular book claiming jews use the blood of Muslims in ritual sacrifice

You mean (who published a popular book claiming jews use the blood of Christians in ritual sacrifice). I think you didn't read it yet.
Even I haven't any sympathy to him, but I think he just collects some documents about this subject

Just two of many examples, off the top of my head, of the unbelievable, genocidal, mideaval-era hatered the Arabs, and the Syrians in particular, harbor towards the jews.

If that is true, how they lived in Syria with Syrian since this religion was created?
But not all Jews are Zionists.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by hisham



You mean (who published a popular book claiming jews use the blood of Christians in ritual sacrifice). I think you didn't read it yet.
Even I haven't any sympathy to him, but I think he just collects some documents about this subject



AT LAST!! THE TRUTH IS REVEALED!! WE DRINK BLOOD!!!! WE DRINK BLOOD!!!!

The Syrian Minister, although he doesn't enjoy Hisham's sympathy, has collected some documents on the subject ... we are talking about a scientific book here...

I usualy drink the blood of my victims on the rocks...

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



AT LAST!! THE TRUTH IS REVEALED!! WE DRINK BLOOD!!!! WE DRINK BLOOD!!!!

The Syrian Minister, although he doesn't enjoy Hisham's sympathy, has collected some documents on the subject ... we are talking about a scientific book here...

I usualy drink the blood of my victims on the rocks...



:D Hey ... many others collect info about this subject... need links....
and how Mr. Sharon usualy drink it?

[Cleopatra]

In fact, Hisham, I'd love to see those who claim that Jews drink blood, so if it's not too much pain for you, could you post the links please?

People should be warned on how dangerous Jews are.

Renata how do you drink it?

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



AT LAST!! THE TRUTH IS REVEALED!! WE DRINK BLOOD!!!! WE DRINK BLOOD!!!!

The Syrian Minister, although he doesn't enjoy Hisham's sympathy, has collected some documents on the subject ... we are talking about a scientific book here...

I usualy drink the blood of my victims on the rocks...




Cleopatra! How primitive!

The best way to drink blood is with a little tomato juice and a dash of pepper. And when I make my famous beef tenderloin, do you really have to ask what is in the reduction sauce? Did you get your recipe from Talmud or from Protocols?

[JamesM]

Originally posted by hisham

how Syria can be anti-Semitic country and their people is Semite.

Hisham,

the word "anti-semite" does not mean to be against all Semitic people (whoever they are). It was coined in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to mean specifically anti-Jewish.

I often see this argument advanced about how Arabs can't be anti-semitic, as they are a Semitic people themselves. It is little more than a semantic sleight-of-hand, and seems entirely superfluous to engaging with the issue at hand.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by renata



Cleopatra! How primitive!

The best way to drink blood is with a little tomato juice and a dash of pepper. And when I make my famous beef tenderloin, do you really have to ask what is in the reduction sauce? Did you get your recipe from Talmud or from Protocols?


Primitive? I'd say that I am rather "purist" when it comes to tastes...

Well, about the recipe, it was a difficult choice but I decided to use the recipe from Talmud because apart from "purist" I am old-fashioned as well ...

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
In fact, Hisham, I'd love to see those who claim that Jews drink blood, so if it's not too much pain for you, could you post the links please?

People should be warned on how dangerous Jews are.

Renata how do you drink it?

Just use google for terms like: Amus Yaron. Sharon, crimes against humanity, then you will find more effective links

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



Primitive? I'd say that I am rather "purist" when it comes to tastes...

Well, about the recipe, it was a difficult choice but I decided to use the recipe from Talmud because apart from "purist" I am old-fashioned as well ...

The problem with drinking pure blood is that the good stuff is so expensive these days! It is impossible to find an adult holy virgin, and children jsut don't provide enough. Here is my recipe for the beef- it is delicious!

I like Talmud, but the Protocols gave some old recipes a bit of a zing, don't you think?


BEEF TENDERLOIN WITH ROASTED SHALLOTS, BACON AND BLOOD


Pour a full-bodied red wine, such as a Bordeaux, Merlot or Cabernet Sauvignon.
1 1/2 pounds large shallots (about 24), halved lengthwise, peeled
3 tablespoons olive oil

6 cups canned beef broth
1 1/2 cups pure blood
1 tablespoon tomato paste

2 3- to 3 1/4-pound beef tenderloins (large ends), trimmed
2 teaspoons dried thyme
7 bacon slices, chopped
6 tablespoons (3/4 stick) butter
1 1/2 tablespoons all purpose flour

1 large bunch watercress

Position rack in center of oven and preheat to 375°F. In 9-inch-diameter pie pan, toss shallots with oil to coat. Season with salt and pepper. Roast until shallots are deep brown and very tender, stirring occasionally, about 30 minutes.

Boil broth and Blood in large saucepan until reduced to 3 3/4 cups, about 30 minutes. Whisk in tomato paste. (Shallots and broth mixture can be made 1 day ahead. Cover separately; chill.)

Pat beef dry; sprinkle with thyme, salt and pepper. In large roasting pan set over medium heat, sauté bacon until golden, about 4 minutes. Using slotted spoon, transfer bacon to paper towels. Add beef to pan; brown on all sides over medium-high heat, about 7 minutes. Transfer pan to oven; roast beef until meat thermometer inserted into center registers 125°F for medium-rare, about 45 minutes. Transfer beef to platter. Tent loosely with foil.

Spoon fat off top of pan drippings in roasting pan. Place roasting pan over high heat. Add broth mixture and bring to boil, scraping up any browned bits. Transfer to medium saucepan; bring to simmer. Mix 3 tablespoons butter and flour in small bowl to form smooth paste; whisk into broth mixture and simmer until sauce thickens, about 2 minutes. Whisk in 3 tablespoons butter. Stir in roasted shallots and reserved bacon. Season sauce with salt and pepper. Cut beef into 1/2-inch-thick slices. Spoon some sauce over. Garnish with watercress. Pass remaining sauce.

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata


The problem with drinking pure blood is that the good stuff is so expensive these days! It is impossible to find an adult holy virgin, and children jsut don't provide enough. Here is my recipe for the beef- it is delicious!

I like Talmud, but the Protocols gave some old recipes a bit of a zing, don't you think?


BEEF TENDERLOIN WITH ROASTED SHALLOTS, BACON AND BLOOD


Pour a full-bodied red wine, such as a Bordeaux, Merlot or Cabernet Sauvignon.
1 1/2 pounds large shallots (about 24), halved lengthwise, peeled
3 tablespoons olive oil

6 cups canned beef broth
1 1/2 cups pure blood
1 tablespoon tomato paste

2 3- to 3 1/4-pound beef tenderloins (large ends), trimmed
2 teaspoons dried thyme
7 bacon slices, chopped
6 tablespoons (3/4 stick) butter
1 1/2 tablespoons all purpose flour

1 large bunch watercress

Position rack in center of oven and preheat to 375°F. In 9-inch-diameter pie pan, toss shallots with oil to coat. Season with salt and pepper. Roast until shallots are deep brown and very tender, stirring occasionally, about 30 minutes.

Boil broth and Blood in large saucepan until reduced to 3 3/4 cups, about 30 minutes. Whisk in tomato paste. (Shallots and broth mixture can be made 1 day ahead. Cover separately; chill.)

Pat beef dry; sprinkle with thyme, salt and pepper. In large roasting pan set over medium heat, sauté bacon until golden, about 4 minutes. Using slotted spoon, transfer bacon to paper towels. Add beef to pan; brown on all sides over medium-high heat, about 7 minutes. Transfer pan to oven; roast beef until meat thermometer inserted into center registers 125°F for medium-rare, about 45 minutes. Transfer beef to platter. Tent loosely with foil.

Spoon fat off top of pan drippings in roasting pan. Place roasting pan over high heat. Add broth mixture and bring to boil, scraping up any browned bits. Transfer to medium saucepan; bring to simmer. Mix 3 tablespoons butter and flour in small bowl to form smooth paste; whisk into broth mixture and simmer until sauce thickens, about 2 minutes. Whisk in 3 tablespoons butter. Stir in roasted shallots and reserved bacon. Season sauce with salt and pepper. Cut beef into 1/2-inch-thick slices. Spoon some sauce over. Garnish with watercress. Pass remaining sauce.
Mr. Sharon will like it very much :D

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by renata

The problem with drinking pure blood is that the good stuff is so expensive these days! It is impossible to find an adult holy virgin, and children jsut don't provide enough.

I have heard that some young Syrians get around in the Cyber Space...

The Nova Protocola ( as we say the novum organum...) explain how you can catch little syrians and drink their blood ON-LINE


RUN HISHAM ... RUN!!!!!

[hisham]

Originally posted by renata

BEEF TENDERLOIN WITH ROASTED SHALLOTS, BACON AND BLOOD


Pour a full-bodied red wine, such as a Bordeaux, Merlot or Cabernet Sauvignon.
1 1/2 pounds large shallots (about 24), halved lengthwise, peeled...etc

Hey renata, this is a violation of copyright-protected material :D
http://beef.allrecipes.com/AZ/BeefTenderloinWithRoastedS.asp

[renata]

Originally posted by hisham

Hey renata, this is a violation of copyright-protected material :D
http://beef.allrecipes.com/AZ/BeefTenderloinWithRoastedS.asp


Hey, it is not my fault if some upstart decided to keep the best part out of my family recipe. Substituting port for blood- the travesty!


Cleopatra- the 1976 vintage was fairly good, don't you think?

[Cleopatra]

You see Hisham how EVIL she is???

She doesn't only drink blood but she steals recipes as well...

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You see Hisham how EVIL she is???

She doesn't only drink blood but she steals recipes as well...
:D :D

[c0rbin]

hisham,

Sorry I have taken so long...

You said...


Very interesting post c0rbin,

Thanks.

As I said before am not religious, but I belong to the Islamic civilization,

Please specify the difference.

and like you I am unsympathetic to fundamentalism in any case.

You seem rational.

Did you note the Islam was in focus just in the last years?

Starting when? Islam has been spread by the sword, as has Xtianity, for hundreds of years. Politicol borders ebb and flow. Xtians in their hayday in Europe and America threatened their own heretics, yet there has been no "Islamic Enlightenment" (as in the European Enlightenment which began the western state's progress towards secular states).

For example US supported many Islamic movements in the Middle East when they was an instruments for US interests,

Politics and statecraft. No nation is clean of this. A state has interests from which it looks to benefit--this is the way of things.

this movements as you said still adapting medieval thinking,

I do not understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you could try again. I understand that english might not be your first language. You write it very well, considering.

you can't do reformation for religions because they live in spirits of people since 1000s of years,

It has happened in many religions. Some religions don't even need to reform. Buhdism is a nice way to think about things we can't explain.

but thinking exchange manners between civilizations do need reformation,

Provincialism is difficult to overcome, I agree. Nationalism usually assetrs itself violently. Globalization might be the outcome of capitolism. But hey, at least we can all have electricity, plumbing, and food ditributed to our neighborhoods.

the question is: why you have the right to make reformation in my civilization when this is suitable for your interest and I haven't this right?

Shall other nations hold their collective breaths and endure violence to their people while we wait for your robber-barons to see the light of open society? I guess you could come to America, get an education start a family and make a future for them here while the middle east sells it's resources away at the expense of its people.

Is that because you have the power now?

There is an election in my country coming up soon. I will have a say in what is to come. Will you?

Both sides have fundamentalism and will be more effective understanding that both need reformation.

I can go out of my house and yell at the top of my lungs, write a book and publish it under my own real name, post a web page, buy TV Time to denounce my president, my country, four major religions, your mother, and every politician in my state without fear of being killed, tortured, stoned to death, or imprisoned. My family will be safe and sound (though a little embarrassed to be sure), and I will wake up and go to work the next morning.

So can anyone in my country.

Can anyone in the Middle East do these things?

[c0rbin]

Shameless bump (for Hisham)

[Skeptic]

You can use this method of propaganda with others who don't know the reality, how Syria can be anti-Semitic country and their people is Semite.

Becasue "antisemite" means "jew hater", not "semite hater". The term "antisemite" was invented by a jew-hating German in the 19th century, to make jew-hating seem "scientific".

Of course, if you rather I use the more descriptive and accurate "jew hater" or "genocidal, Nazi-like hater" to describe the Syrians' attitude towards the jews, fine with me...

indicate others as antisemitics when they try to criticize Israel.

Calling for a holy war against the jews who "deny Jesus", and claiming jews use blood for matzos, is not "criticism of israel". It's medieval-style, genocidal hatered of jews.

(Hisham's reply to my claim that the ex-minister of defense published a book claiming jews use Muslim blood for passover matzos: )

Not ex-minister, he is the actual minister of defense...

...still in power since the mid-70's at least (when he wrote his book).

Not surprising, actually, considering the fact Syria has no elections and is ruled by fear of the secret police. People tend to stay in power a LONG time in such a system.

who published a popular book claiming jews use the blood of Christians in ritual sacrifice)

Boy, talk about an excuse that's worse than the crime: "How DARE you call him an antisemite! He didn't claim jews use MUSLIM blood for PASSOVER, just that they use CHRISTIAN blood in RITUAL SACRIFICE!"

Even I haven't any sympathy to him, but I think he just collects some documents about this subject

Well, in Syria, that counts as a respectable, harmless hobby: collecting documents "proving" the old mideaval libel about the jews using gentile blood in evil rituals.

And to think I accused the Syrians of antisemitism...

If that is true, how they lived in Syria with Syrian[s] since this religion was created?

As dhimmis (second-class citizens), that must submit to the superiority of muslim rule, and suffer the occassional pogrom and murderous riot whenever the mob wants someone to blame, that's how!

[Skeptic]

Just use google for terms like: Amus Yaron.

Amos Yaron is an ex-israeli paratrooper who went off his rocker and started blaming the jews for things like ritual murder, human scarifice, genocide, etc.

He also claims the holocaust was a hoax, so far as I know--at least, he is a good friend of the holocaust-denyting IHR and David Irving.

Yes, just the man to ask about the jews...

[DialecticMaterialist]

who published a popular book claiming jews use the blood of Christians in ritual sacrifice)

Gee that changes EVERYTHING. LOL.

[Wasim]

Parents of the late Rachel Corrie, whose names are Craig and Cindy Corrie, have agreed to broadcast an internet address to which people may send their condolences over Reachel's death

They can be reached at: cbc1flute@aol.com

[Wasim]

Originally posted by hisham

Mr. Sharon will like it very much :D

Hehe .. :D

[demon]

Thanks for the email address Wasim.
Israel is an utter disgrace, those who aplogize for it are worse.

Sad thing is, this deceitful and impassioned subterfuge relies on the ingnorance of well meaning people...oh, and of course the happy little slurr of anti-Semite that can be whipped out of the box at any convenient moment.
Let`s hope it won`t always be that way.

[Wasim]

Originally posted by demon
Thanks for the email address Wasim.
Israel is an utter disgrace, those who aplogize for it are worse.

Sad thing is, this deceitful and impassioned subterfuge relies on the ingnorance of well meaning people...oh, and of course the happy little slurr of anti-Semite that can be whipped out of the box at any convenient moment.
Let`s hope it won`t always be that way.

You're welcome Demon ..
But, do you know what there is in the end of "the road" in the Road Map Plan ?

Think about it .. :rolleyes:
It's simple ...

[demon]

Wasim,
As we all really know the "roadmap" is a sham. It holds within itself the seeds of it`s own destruction.
As always it is based on the premise that the Palestinians must capitulate.
Any serious "roadmap" would tell the Israelis to get the hell off the stolen land to begin with and then maybe to recognize and say sorry for the crimes they have committed.
Not everyone is unaware of those crimes, and some of us like yourself no doubt, know something of the Nakba.
By the way, it`s a pleasure to meet you Wasim, my best regards.

[Wasim]

Originally posted by demon
Wasim,
As we all really know the "roadmap" is a sham. It holds within itself the seeds of it`s own destruction.
As always it is based on the premise that the Palestinians must capitulate.
Any serious "roadmap" would tell the Israelis to get the hell off the stolen land to begin with and then maybe to recognize and say sorry for the crimes they have committed.
Not everyone is unaware of those crimes, and some of us like yourself no doubt, know something of the Nakba.
By the way, it`s a pleasure to meet you Wasim, my best regards.

Dear Demon ..
It's really nice to meet you and I hope that we're gonna exchange our ideas and comments together .. I recpect your point because you know the fact of Israel and this road of blood ! ... Thanx for sharing us this discussion..

Best reagrds
Wasim

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by demon
Wasim,
As we all really know the "roadmap" is a sham. It holds within itself the seeds of it`s own destruction.
As always it is based on the premise that the Palestinians must capitulate.
Any serious "roadmap" would tell the Israelis to get the hell off the stolen land to begin with and then maybe to recognize and say sorry for the crimes they have committed.
Not everyone is unaware of those crimes, and some of us like yourself no doubt, know something of the Nakba.
By the way, it`s a pleasure to meet you Wasim, my best regards.

Socrates said: "All I know is that I know nothing." ...and he was the wisest man in all of ancient Athens!

OTOH "Demon" seems to know everything about middle eastern politics! ....and he is the biggest fool in this forum!
:D

So Demon, Wasim...are we all for pushing the Jews into the sea then??? One can easily surmise by your post Demon, that you would welcome such a thing. Alas, too bad the combined power of the "mighty" Arab nations are so pitifully unable to accomplish this task against the puny little Jewish state!

Terrorism is the last recourse of a people who are both weak and evil. However, the WOT seems to be going fairly well doesn't it? Hopefully very soon we will have people sign into this forum from Baghdad who will be pleased to publish their opinions openly, under their own names...no matter what those opinions might be. Something which still, BTW, cannot be accomplished in Damascus.

-z

[demon]

Hey Rik!
Long time no see and yeah, I missed you too;)

"Socrates said: "All I know is that I know nothing." ...and he was the wisest man in all of ancient Athens!"

You been back in your time machine I take it to verify he was the wisest man in Athens?
You must know who was the second wisest man then. Care to name him too?

"puny little Jewish state"...see you still have your sense of irony.

"Terrorism is the last recourse of a people who are both weak and evil."

That`s a silly statement even by your standards. I`d guess that even you know Israel`s record of terrorism and terrorism`s role in the founding of many other states. Seems it isn`t such a weak policy at all. Was quite a bit of it going on in the founding of your own country.

As for the "War on Terrorism", yes it`s just going dandy isn`t it.
Does your time machine work in a forward motion too? If so go see if the WOT is doing quite so well as you think it is. Ten to fifteen years from now there might be a few Iraqi kids that have grown up without their murdered parents who just might turn up on your shores. They won`t be coming for a holiday either.

[Girl 6]

It is a known historical fact that Israel has engaged in acts of terrorism. I don't see why people turn a blind eye to that.

The WOT is going to devolve like the War on Drugs. And that is nothing but a sham at this point.

G6

[DialecticMaterialist]

Any evidence of that girl 6? Also do they tunr a blind to it or perhaps just not emphasize it as much as you?

[Girl 6]

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
Any evidence of that girl 6? Also do they tunr a blind to it or perhaps just not emphasize it as much as you?

Oh, I'm not sure that it's total denial on any politician's part when they deal with Israel. Of course, they don't emphasize it. If they did, there would be a lot more discussion about it.

Terrorism and acts of violence are part of Israel's history. And, I do like the way you put it. It is all about emphasis, isn't it?

G6

[DialecticMaterialist]

Well first off you presented no evidence.

Secondly, to be charitable and even assume you are right, emphasis is important. A nation may have done terrorist activities....a long time ago, or perhaps a fringe group associated with them did: but still the good of that nation may outweigh the bad. It's all about proportion and how serious you believe their sins, or any specific transgression to be.

If you think that automatically makes the them "evil" or "equal" to another nation many consider worse that's affected by your emphasis. An either/or value judgement. For others though the issue may be more of degree.

[Girl 6]

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
Well first off you presented no evidence.

Secondly, to be charitable and even assume you are right, emphasis is important. A nation may have done terrorist activities....a long time ago, or perhaps a fringe group associated with them did: but still the good of that nation may outweigh the bad. It's all about proportion and how serious you believe their sins, or any specific transgression to be.

If you think that automatically makes the them "evil" or "equal" to another nation many consider worse that's affected by your emphasis. An either/or value judgement. For others though the issue may be more of degree.

I agree. I presented no evidence. :) It's an opinion, as such.

I am not passing a moral judgement on them. Every country is guilty of various atrocities. However, I do feel that there is a tendency to give Israel a free pass for the past atrocities that were committed to the Jewish people. I will admit here and now that this is a personal opinion that I have.

What I think is happening is that the media tends to focus on the suicide bombers without giving context to what is happening and what is causing these people to do such desperate acts.

I'd like to actually see some more balanced coverage concerning the Middle East.

G6

[Baker]

Originally posted by Girl 6


I agree. I presented no evidence. :) It's an opinion, as such.

I am not passing a moral judgement on them. Every country is guilty of various atrocities. However, I do feel that there is a tendency to give Israel a free pass for the past atrocities that were committed to the Jewish people. I will admit here and now that this is a personal opinion that I have.

What I think is happening is that the media tends to focus on the suicide bombers without giving context to what is happening and what is causing these people to do such desperate acts.

I'd like to actually see some more balanced coverage concerning the Middle East.

G6

Its really surprising to hear you say this Girl6 I thought you despise any violence what ever the reason is.
This is the same information I posted in another thread.
About 75% of Palestine's support Bin laden lets not forget the cheering Palestine's after 9/11
You would think there was no call to destroy Israel by your remarks this is a clip from Palestine TV telling their children to grow up and be suicide bombers.
http://www.campustruth.org/content/link.php?go=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/data/asx/2002/06/29/asx_210_broad.asx

This is the url to the poll showing their support for bin laden.
http://www.iht.com/articles/98399.html

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by demon
Hey Rik!
Long time no see and yeah, I missed you too;)
Jey, even us hard-hearted bastards need to have a holiday at the lake every once in awhile! ;)

"Socrates said: "All I know is that I know nothing." ...and he was the wisest man in all of ancient Athens!"

You been back in your time machine I take it to verify he was the wisest man in Athens?
You must know who was the second wisest man then. Care to name him too?
The source of the info about Socrates being "the wisest man in Athens" was said to have come from none other than the Oracle of Delphi...but hey, I don't put much stock in Oracles either. :) Socrates himself was supposed to have said "All that I know is that I know nothing"... Socrates was a hell of a guy...a real wild man! I spent a long evening discussing philosophy with him..he thought my way-back machine was "neat-o". (see? real ancient jargon!) :D

"puny little Jewish state"...see you still have your sense of irony.
It sure looks little to me when compared to the vast Arab lands which surround it on 3 sides!

"Terrorism is the last recourse of a people who are both weak and evil."

That`s a silly statement even by your standards. I`d guess that even you know Israel`s record of terrorism and terrorism`s role in the founding of many other states. Seems it isn`t such a weak policy at all. Was quite a bit of it going on in the founding of your own country.

Not silly in the least. "Terrorism" is the act of murder and/or maiming of the innocent in order to hold a government's policy hostage to the desires of the terrorists. By definition a government with a strong military would never need to stoop to such levels. Of course governments such as that of Saddam Hussein do terrorize their citizens....but that is not the type of terrorism I am referring to.


As for the "War on Terrorism", yes it`s just going dandy isn`t it.
Does your time machine work in a forward motion too? If so go see if the WOT is doing quite so well as you think it is. Ten to fifteen years from now there might be a few Iraqi kids that have grown up without their murdered parents who just might turn up on your shores. They won`t be coming for a holiday either.

Ahh yes...the way-back machineit does indeed work in future mode! In 2020 those young Iraqi men are indeed on our shores...coming in droves, so they are!

Not on holiday either....just here to offer their thanks to America in general, and GWB in particular for avenging the deaths of their hundreds of thousands of loved ones who were murdered by Saddam's henchmen. :)

[Cleopatra]

Bump for future reference.