Million dollars should go to Alcoholic's Anonymous?

[Kevin Levites]

Here's a question:

If I understand Randi's challenge correctly, I could claim the million dollars if I could prove that prayer could heal a disease.

So . . . alcoholism is a fatal disease if left untreated, and Alcoholic's Anonymous is recognized by most experts as a very effective treatment for alcoholism, and one of the central principles of A.A. is regular prayer and appeal to your 'Higher Power'.

Without this appeal to your higher power, A.A. (by it's own standards) would accomplish nothing.

So, does this meet the terms of Randi's challenge if, in A.A., we regularly rely on an appeal to the supernatural to bring a fatal disease into remission?

Thanks, and all the best.

---Kevin

[Piscivore]

What protocol do you suggest to determine it was the prayer and not some other factor of the treatment that effected the change?

Not to mention you are playing fast and loose with several definitions here. Equivocation is not paranormal.

[strathmeyer]

So . . . alcoholism is a fatal disease if left untreated, and Alcoholic's Anonymous is recognized by most experts as a very effective treatment for alcoholism, and one of the central principles of A.A. is regular prayer and appeal to your 'Higher Power'.

What experts consider AA a very effective treatment for alcoholism?

Heck, can you name anyone who considers AA to be effective at all?

[Kevin Levites]

I'm not sure how to answer.

I do believe that alcoholism is a genetic disease that can kill you if it's left untreated, and I do believe (from my years in EMS as a paramedic) that most physicians and health professionals suggest A.A. as an effective form of treatment.

In A.A., the appeal to a higher power is instrumental in keeping sober. When one removes the concept of a higher power from A.A., there is (for the most part) nothing left.

I don't consider myself to be a religious or spiritual person, and I suggested this question only to see if I understood Randi's challenge correctly.

For that matter, can meditation and prayer be considered a form of holistic medicine? If so, then does that mean that we rely on holistic medicine to put a fatal disease into remission when allopathic medicine has little or nothing to offer the alcoholic?

All the best,

---Kevin

[thatguywhojuggles]

If AA works because of prayer, then the only thing it proves is that a psychological state of being (belief) helps one overcome addiction. This however, does not prove anything paranormal. If AA works because of prayer, this still does not prove a higher power exists. All that it proves is that people who believe in a higher power are able to overcome alcoholism.

If AA works...

[jimtron]

If it's simply prayer that is "curing" the disease, why not simplify it and leave out the AA part. Prove that mere prayer cures alcoholism. Perhaps having a support group and talk therapy is part of what helps?

[Gulliver]

Just to be clear, alcoholism has no known cure. Many doctors do indeed recommend AA, but as a treatment. (Reference: Dr. (and Mrs.) Gulliver, M. D., Associate Professor, Family Medicine Department, College of Medicine.)

[Wowbagger]

I seem to recall, Penn & Teller claimed, on BS!, that AA was only about 11% effective, according to some records they found.
And, AA does not even officially release their records. (Hmm... suspicious, that)

[Rasmus]

Here's a question:

If I understand Randi's challenge correctly, I could claim the million dollars if I could prove that prayer could heal a disease.

Yes. (If I, too, understand him correctly, that is.)

So . . . alcoholism is a fatal disease if left untreated,

Uh.... no. Addiction can manifest itself in many forms, some of them are mild. So it is possible to be addicted without the addiction being in any way fatal.

and Alcoholic's Anonymous is recognized by most experts as a very effective treatment for alcoholism,

I very much doubt that; especially since there are probably a lot less "experts" on alcoholism than what one might think. But this part is immaterial to the challenge. No expert that deserves the name would agree that dowsing is a good way to detect gold, after all.

and one of the central principles of A.A. is regular prayer and appeal to your 'Higher Power'.

As far as I know they do other things besides prayer.

Without this appeal to your higher power, A.A. (by it's own standards) would accomplish nothing.

That claim could be tested very easily, unfortunately I see nothing paranormal about it.

So, does this meet the terms of Randi's challenge if, in A.A., we regularly rely on an appeal to the supernatural to bring a fatal disease into remission?

No. Prayer could easily be a very strong placebo - nothing paranormal about that.

AFAIK, alcoholism is very much a mental disease, so placebos have a very good chance of working very well. So it is easily conceivable that an addict could overcome his own alcoholism by the power of his believe in prayer alone.

Even if an addict wouldn't believe, regular prayer might just help him to reinforce his own will - so no proof there, either.

I suggest you pray over a few amputees until at least 20% of them regrow one or several limps.

[Strider1974]

Kevin, can you show evidence that AA has a success rate better than that of people who do not go to AA or organisations that do not use religion as part of the "cure"
Can you prove that alcoholism is a disease?

And even if you proved the above you would still have to prove that AA works because of the prayer and not because the of the persons faith.

Question - If AA is so successful why don't publish statistical proof. This would only gather positive attention and add legitimacy to their cause - that is, if it actually works

[Scott Haley]

Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on AA:

A few alcoholics who arrive at A.A. without belief in God use the group itself as their "Higher Power." One such alcoholic defined "GOD" as "Group Of Drunks" until he was able to discover a spiritual concept of god which worked for him. Others define Deity as a light bulb, a chair, Ralph, a radiator, Something, and Somebody. Other A.A. members point out that there are many powers greater than one's self to choose from. The idea that this power must be God is not necessarily true for everyone, a few contend.

[jimtron]

I seem to recall, Penn & Teller claimed, on BS!, that AA was only about 11% effective, according to some records they found.
And, AA does not even officially release their records. (Hmm... suspicious, that)

It's common to quit drinking, but it's also quite common to relapse. To call AA effective one would need to keep track of participants until their deaths, I would think, to make sure they didn't relapse. If you go through AA, quit drinking, and fall off the wagon 20 years later, was AA effective in treating your drinking problem?

Perhaps if someone could show that Narconon can "cure" substance abuse, they could collect the million--Narconon has claimed a stunning 70% success rate (http://narconon-news.blogspot.com/2005/09/survey-shows-narconon-arrowheads.html).

[Abdul Alhazred]

It requires no paranormalism to claim that a prayer can get a person past an urge to take a drink.

[Beleth]

Just because prayer helps keep alcoholics off the sauce doesn't prove that God keeps alcoholics off the sauce.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Just because prayer helps keep alcoholics off the sauce doesn't prove that God keeps alcoholics off the sauce.

Precisely.

Many or most AAs may think so, but there is no standard doctrine and it's all very empirical.

See this: http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/12steps.html

[Wavicle]

Here's a question:

If I understand Randi's challenge correctly, I could claim the million dollars if I could prove that prayer could heal a disease.

So . . . alcoholism is a fatal disease if left untreated, and Alcoholic's Anonymous is recognized by most experts as a very effective treatment for alcoholism, and one of the central principles of A.A. is regular prayer and appeal to your 'Higher Power'.

Without this appeal to your higher power, A.A. (by it's own standards) would accomplish nothing.

So, does this meet the terms of Randi's challenge if, in A.A., we regularly rely on an appeal to the supernatural to bring a fatal disease into remission?

Thanks, and all the best.

---Kevin
I believe you seriously misunderstand AA. AA does NOT profess to cure ANYTHING. It treats alcoholism. If AA cured an alcoholic, they could then become a social drinker without relapsing into chronic destructive alcoholism. This is absolutely NOT what AA believes. Their mantra is: "1 is too many and 100 is not enough." AA exists as a group to provide a safe, supportive, non-judgmental, alcohol free, alternative social context.

I see no reason to require belief in God helping you for AA to work, it certainly helps some people. If it helps them get off the bottle and become a productive, or at least non-destructive, member of society, I don't care if they believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster is helping them.

The one prayer they do say at AA meetings is non-denominational (well, it is mono-theistic, but still) and a damn fine prayer if I do say so. It is a prayer for peace of mind, acceptance of one's past and wisdom going forward. Nowhere is their a plea "please change my brain chemistry, mmm'kay?" No cure.

[Kimpatsu]

Here's a question:

If I understand Randi's challenge correctly, I could claim the million dollars if I could prove that prayer could heal a disease.

So . . . alcoholism is a fatal disease if left untreated, and Alcoholic's Anonymous is recognized by most experts as a very effective treatment for alcoholism, and one of the central principles of A.A. is regular prayer and appeal to your 'Higher Power'.

Without this appeal to your higher power, A.A. (by it's own standards) would accomplish nothing.

So, does this meet the terms of Randi's challenge if, in A.A., we regularly rely on an appeal to the supernatural to bring a fatal disease into remission?

Thanks, and all the best.

---Kevin
I would accept that getting you to use the apostrophe correctly would be a miracle. :D

[fabian_lidman]

And, AA does not even officially release their records. (Hmm... suspicious, that)
They don't really have records, because they have no membership.
Som AA groups are full of born-again bible nuts, while others are very secular. There is no real central organization in AA, hence groups can be very different depending on its members.

[thatguywhojuggles]

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_BigBook_chapt4.pdf

I found this chapter of particular interest.

[Pup]

So . . . alcoholism is a fatal disease if left untreated,

You lost me right there. How are we defining "alcoholism"?

Is it being born with brain chemistry which makes a person pre-disposed to become addicted to alcohol moreso than average?

If so, what if that person never, in his or her life, had a drink. Would he or she still suffer from alcoholism? Could prayer cure him to the point that his brain chemistry would no longer predispose him to addiction?

Or instead, is alcoholism an acquired addiction, caused by drinking too much alcohol over too long a period, which can be acquired almost immediately by some people and almost never by others, depending on their genetic make-up?

If so, "not drinking" is purely a matter of will power. It may require extreme, virtually impossible willpower for one person to endure the suffering of not drinking, and virtually none at all for another person, but in either case, it's a conscious act not to take a drink, unlike, for example, the unconscious act of making cancerous cells stop multiplying. It's no surprise that praying or any other form of mental exercise helps people control conscious acts, but if you could prove praying controls the multiplication of cancerous cells, for example, that'd be another matter.

[Beady]

I seem to recall, Penn & Teller claimed, on BS!, that AA was only about 11% effective...

So, it is effective; the only question is the degree of effectiveness. 11% effectiveness is better than 5% or 0%, and may possibly be improved.

Actually, the way I remember BS!, P&T are generally anti-support groups on principle.

[Abdul Alhazred]

One reason AA is helpful is the support group network. Call another AA if you're really itching for a drink.

While plenty of AAs talk about it being a "miracle", there are really no official supernatural/paranormal claims.

"The only requirement is a desire to stop drinking".

AA will not help you get over being a superstitious ninny, nor require you to be one.

[tkingdoll]

You lost me right there. How are we defining "alcoholism"?

Is it being born with brain chemistry which makes a person pre-disposed to become addicted to alcohol moreso than average?

If so, what if that person never, in his or her life, had a drink. Would he or she still suffer from alcoholism? Could prayer cure him to the point that his brain chemistry would no longer predispose him to addiction?

Or instead, is alcoholism an acquired addiction, caused by drinking too much alcohol over too long a period, which can be acquired almost immediately by some people and almost never by others, depending on their genetic make-up?

If so, "not drinking" is purely a matter of will power. It may require extreme, virtually impossible willpower for one person to endure the suffering of not drinking, and virtually none at all for another person, but in either case, it's a conscious act not to take a drink, unlike, for example, the unconscious act of making cancerous cells stop multiplying. It's no surprise that praying or any other form of mental exercise helps people control conscious acts, but if you could prove praying controls the multiplication of cancerous cells, for example, that'd be another matter.

Me too, pup, I'm also struggling with that definition.

No-one is born with a beer in their hand.

[epepke]

It's common to quit drinking, but it's also quite common to relapse. To call AA effective one would need to keep track of participants until their deaths, I would think, to make sure they didn't relapse. If you go through AA, quit drinking, and fall off the wagon 20 years later, was AA effective in treating your drinking problem?

I've seen a few longitudinal studies over the years, and they all seem to show that AA is no more effective on average than just deciding not to drink any more, and also that AA has a higher rescidivism rate, which should be no surprise, as AA teaches that if you have one drink, you'll wind up in the gutter. So people who do so are only following the rules of AA.

Of course, people who like support groups will attribute their success to AA, which is not a bad thing, but it's down to individual preferences and says very little about the effectiveness of a treatment. I can get over depression by going on a roller coaster, but this does not mean that roller coasters are an effective treatment for depression in general. I also find writing LISP interpreters wonderfully calming, but I don't think it should be universally prescribed. Others might prefer to meditate, or whatever.

[Soapy Sam]

First you would need to prove that there is any such illness as "Alcoholism".
How , for instance, is it distinguishable from self-administered poisoning?

The cure for poisoning may be an antidote (depending on the toxin), but the cure for "alcoholism" is to stop drinking alcohol. What protocol could be established to prove that subject A stopped drinking alcohol through divine assistance, as opposed to because his wife threatened to cut his nuts off?

[Wowbagger]

So, it is effective; the only question is the degree of effectiveness. 11% effectiveness is better than 5% or 0%, and may possibly be improved.

Actually, the way I remember BS!, P&T are generally anti-support groups on principle.
I just rewatched part of that episode. They actually said it was 5% successful, (not 11%). I got the number wrong.

And, incidentally, the success rate for quitting cold turkey is also about 5%!!

And, yes P&T are against 12-step support groups on principal, in part because it is like a "mandatory religion" pushed onto many people.

[epepke]

First you would need to prove that there is any such illness as "Alcoholism".
How , for instance, is it distinguishable from self-administered poisoning?

There is a thing called informally "alcoholism" in internal medicine. It involves the metabolism of alcoholism bypassing some of the normal metabolic pathways. The body adjusts to the alcohol.

One of the things about this is that an alcoholic cannot stop drinking cold turkey. Also, consuming carbohydrates in this state can result in irreversible nerve damage. Standard treatment involves injection of massive amounts of niacin to prevent the nerve damage and other vitamins and minerals as well, because alcoholics tend to be malnourished. This is usually followed by an amino acid solution and Ringer's solution. Sometimes maintenance IV ethanol is also injected. When the patient starts to recover, they are started on a high-protein diet and then later switched to a normal diet.

Note that this is different in almost every important respect from "alcoholism" as defined by AA.

[Luke T.]

I am a member of AA with over 11 years of continuous sobriety. I have said here many times that I know several members of AA who are atheists who have long term sobriety.

My sponsor in Virginia was one of the those people who uses "Group Of Drunks" in place of GOD.

I am a Deist myself, so I don't believe in a God who intervenes in our lives in any way. But I have prayed many times. I pray to understand "God's will for us". What that means to me is that when I have done things my way all my life, I have screwed things up badly. My ego is huge, and I tend to be self-destructive. So I am just trying to find out how the world works, my place in it, and a way to harmonize those together.

When I was thinking of suicide 24/7 and had just over a year of sobriety, I started going to one particular meeting that was all men who had over 10 years of sobriety. Most of them had over 20 years. And they had all been through a hell of a lot worse than I ever had. So they were my higher power. I was seeking a way of life that was better than my way of life, which was so self-destructive. I was looking for the formula which brings peace of mind. Peace of mind is what I had been looking for in a bottle. So "my will" didn't work. And I was as powerless over alcohol as it gets.

To this day, I don't see the point of taking a drink if you aren't going to get rip roaring wasted. Intellectually, I can understand, but something happens to me when I take so much as one sip.

I've shared enough of my life on here (my life is an open book) and all the methods I tried to get sober. Hey, I've known people who do it all on their own, and more power to them. I envy those people, but I don't begrudge them. I tried it all. You name the method, I tried it. And I just got worse and worse.

AA is the only thing that finally worked for me.

As for Penn and Teller, I think a lot of their shows contains a heavy dose of BS. Coming from them. I won't bother going into the flaws of their program on AA. Hell, Penn admitted he had no idea what he was talking about at the beginning of the show.

As for the 5 percent number, yeah, just about every member of AA relapses at some point. But they keep coming back. And a hell of a lot more than 5 percent eventually get sober for good.

I first joined AA in July 1993. I stayed sober until one night in February 1995. Does that make me a failure story of AA?

I haven't had a drink since, so you tell me.

[Luke T.]

AA is more than about God and not drinking. Way more.

It's about cleaning out all the garbage that has accumulated from being an alcoholic. The alcoholic way of life is very destructive, to one's self and to others.

And that's where P&T left it. "I'm a piece of garbage." That was their summation of the AA philosophy.

No. I came to AA believing I was a piece of garbage and learned I am a great person who lived like a piece of garbage. I have cleaned house and have become a contributing member of society.

Folks around here know the stuff I do in the real world. I am a great dad and husband, I do volunteer work in prisons, and I started and run a charitable organization that helps people who need a helping hand.

All of that is a result of AA. So P&T were way off.

[Anti_Hypeman]

The main beef P&T had was that AA is sometimes court mandated. There are other programs that dont require rock or radiator worship but some judges only give the option of AA.

If you are forced to declare a higher power then it is government mandated religion. Even if you can choose Tom O'Dell as your god there is no "none" option. Being forced to attend prayer services by the government is worng no matter how broad the prayer is.

Should judges have the power to force a 70 year old christian program as the only option?

[tkingdoll]

There is a thing called informally "alcoholism" in internal medicine. It involves the metabolism of alcoholism bypassing some of the normal metabolic pathways. The body adjusts to the alcohol.

One of the things about this is that an alcoholic cannot stop drinking cold turkey. Also, consuming carbohydrates in this state can result in irreversible nerve damage. Standard treatment involves injection of massive amounts of niacin to prevent the nerve damage and other vitamins and minerals as well, because alcoholics tend to be malnourished. This is usually followed by an amino acid solution and Ringer's solution. Sometimes maintenance IV ethanol is also injected. When the patient starts to recover, they are started on a high-protein diet and then later switched to a normal diet.

Note that this is different in almost every important respect from "alcoholism" as defined by AA.

But that's talking about stopping drinking. Not starting.

[Luke T.]

The main beef P&T had was that AA is sometimes court mandated. There are other programs that dont require rock or radiator worship but some judges only give the option of AA.

If you are forced to declare a higher power then it is government mandated religion. Even if you can choose Tom O'Dell as your god there is no "none" option. Being forced to attend prayer services by the government is worng no matter how broad the prayer is.

I am undecided on the issue. I don't know how effective any treatment program, AA or not, can be if the person doesn't want to be there.

Should judges have the power to force a 70 year old christian program as the only option?

It is not a Christian program. Where did you get that idea?

AA is all over the world. Just about every country.

[Luke T.]

Or instead, is alcoholism an acquired addiction, caused by drinking too much alcohol over too long a period, which can be acquired almost immediately by some people and almost never by others, depending on their genetic make-up?

I drank alcoholically from my very first drink. I never in my life had "just a couple".

[Strider1974]

I am undecided on the issue. I don't know how effective any treatment program, AA or not, can be if the person doesn't want to be there.



It is not a Christian program. Where did you get that idea?

AA is all over the world. Just about every country.

AA is a cult.
The fact that this cult does some good is besides the point it is still a cult.

[Abdul Alhazred]

AA is a cult.
The fact that this cult does some good is besides the point it is still a cult.

You are calling it a "cult" as a meaningless term of abuse, because you don't like it for some reason.

No leader giving orders, no official doctrine other than don't drink and go to meetings.

What makes it a cult? That most of the people in it believe in some sort of god?

[Strider1974]

You are calling it a "cult" as a meaningless term of abuse, because you don't like it for some reason.

No leader giving orders, no official doctrine other than don't drink and go to meetings.

What makes it a cult? That most of the people in it believe in some sort of god?

The “alcoholism cult.” That’s what Sheldon Bacon, for many years the director of the Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, called overly avid supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://oldweb.uwp.edu/academic/criminal.justice/aacult01.htm

[Abdul Alhazred]

Seems like highly biased special pleading.

Of course it is "mind control" in a sense, but it is a question of tricks to get past an urge to drink.

He makes it sound sinister.

[Wowbagger]

I doubt "cult" is an accurate word to describe AA. Or, at the very least would be an exaggeration of the issues experts have with it.

One of the primary ingredients of a cult is to have at least one very strict, yet unrealistic, ideology of some sort. I don't think "Don't Drink" quite cuts it.

Not that I am implying AA is all that good a thing. Only that it is not a "cult".

[Dunstan]

As for the 5 percent number, yeah, just about every member of AA relapses at some point. But they keep coming back. And a hell of a lot more than 5 percent eventually get sober for good.


Evidence?

And does "sober for good" mean "no relapses"?

[kevin]

Evidence?

And does "sober for good" mean "no relapses"?

A long term study would need real definition of terms. For example, does "success" only mean no relapses? Would a person using AA for 20 years with no drinking, then having one druken night, then resuming for another 20 years be a success or a failure? Same person falling off for 1 week, success or failure? 1 month of relapse, 1 year, etc....

[Jackalgirl]

I don't know how effective any treatment program, AA or not, can be if the person doesn't want to be there.

Luke -- not to belittle your experience and support of AA, honest, but I have a question: how does LACK of a belief in a "higher power" translate into a "person [not wanting] to be there" (or, by extension, not wanting to address his or her alcohol dependence)?

Am I misunderstanding your statement -- it sounds like you're saying this, based on what you quoted and where you put your response. Or are you just generally commenting on the general effectiveness of any treatment that is court-mandated?

[Niki]

I seem to recall, Penn & Teller claimed, on BS!, that AA was only about 11% effective, according to some records they found.
And, AA does not even officially release their records. (Hmm... suspicious, that)

I'm not quibbling over the statistic but I think it was somewhere around that and the statistic for those who had gone cold turkey was the same success rate.

[Beleth]

Sometimes thread drift is really depressing.

Different solutions have different effectivenesses for different people. Just because AA might have the same success rate as getting no help at all doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile. It just means that there are two paths to success.

[Wowbagger]

I'm not quibbling over the statistic but I think it was somewhere around that and the statistic for those who had gone cold turkey was the same success rate.
In another post I corrected the number to 5%, which is indeed the same for those who had gone cold turkey.

Thus, with numbers that low, it is unlikely AA can "cure" alcoholism, whether through "god" or not.

Thus, no million dollar prize for them. (But, if it works for you, go for it!)

[The Atheist]

Whether or not AA rates of success in keeping people on the wagon are any better or worse than other types of therapy doesn't matter. Certainly, the original post is misplaced in its belief in the miraculous nature of the "cure". Whatever works, works.

At AA, the system of replacing the demon alcohol with the judeo/christian god is one which does in fact work in many cases. Whether or not the same results could have been achieved with other programs is a moot point.

To me, AA is a classic example of the greater good vs the greater evil.

Alcoholism is unquestionably evil, it ruins not only the lives of the alcoholics, but also their families. The use of religion by AA creates so much more good by turning people's lives around that any negativity as to a "god's" place in the process cannot possibly outweigh the benefits to partners, children and grandchildren.

[fblau]

That only a few of you actually HAVE firsthand experience with AA.

If you had, you would know several things:

1. AA never claimed to be able to cure anything. This alone should remove the topic from discussion here.

2. AA does not participate or endorse political or religous activities.

3. AA does not define "success" as being sober forever. It defines PROGRESS as being sober TODAY. A subtle, yet vitally important part of the recovery process for AA. How a skeptical non-alcoholic/lurker defines it is irrelevant to the alcoholic.

4. While AA certainly retains some of the semantics of a mid-20th Century judeo-christian ethos, this does not preclude people from having animistic, pagan, muslim or even agnostic inclinations in their recovery process. I've heard sober people talk about having trees, or my favorite, Xena (Warrior Princess) as a higher power, without no detrimental impact on their sobriety.

This REALLY doesn't belong on JREF.

Frank B. (21 years sober)

[Abdul Alhazred]

That only a few of you actually HAVE firsthand experience with AA. ...

Hear hear!

While I'm at it I'll re-post this link:

Agnostic Twelve Steps (http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/12steps.html)

For agnostics who would like to work the steps, this version of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous provides slightly different wording of the six steps that make reference to God or a Higher Power. This version of the Twelve Steps seems to have originated in agnostic A.A. groups in California

[ponderingturtle]

The main beef P&T had was that AA is sometimes court mandated. There are other programs that dont require rock or radiator worship but some judges only give the option of AA.

If you are forced to declare a higher power then it is government mandated religion. Even if you can choose Tom O'Dell as your god there is no "none" option. Being forced to attend prayer services by the government is worng no matter how broad the prayer is.

Should judges have the power to force a 70 year old christian program as the only option?

BUt if it does not matter what you worship, why not worship the true higher power in this situation, the judge? Be sure to make it clear to them that you plan on this.

[Abdul Alhazred]

BUt if it does not matter what you worship, why not worship the true higher power in this situation, the judge? Be sure to make it clear to them that you plan on this.

It only works if you want it.

It is a fact that people sent by a court are often only playing a game to get their license back or whatever, and then leave.

Unless you want to be an atheist martyr over a DUI don't follow your advice.

[Kevin Levites]

I would like to thank everyone for responding.

A major concern with this issue has more to do with questions about a possible double-standard in medicine.

Skeptic magazine and Skeptical Inquirer recently ran several articles about claims that prayer can heal illnesses---claims which are doubtful at best, and downright dangerous and life-threatening at worst.

I worked as a paramedic and/or EMT (depending upon the circumstances and jurisdiction) for almost 12 years, and I've often seen people die from treatable illnesses because of a preference for prayer over modern medicine (this seemed to happen most often to illegal immigrants who were afraid of getting deported, and more often during disasters than at other times).

Every doctor seems to recommend A.A. to the alcoholic, so I wonder if there was just a little bit of a double standard here. If so, then how do we get around it?

Best,

---Kevin

[Pup]

Some random thoughts...

Prayer instead of an antibiotic? No way. AA instead of.... what? There really isn't a simple pill or procedure to cure alcoholism for the long term. So any useful "cure" is going to include some sort of method to help an alcoholic cope mentally, that can't really be tested on lab rats. And that's something where playing tricks in your mind really does work, including the same tricks that religions employ for relieving guilt, raising self esteem, coping with worry, etc.

AA seems to try to emphasize that it's not requiring conversion to any particular religion, and that's apparently the loophole that allows US courts to mandate it. Personally, I don't agree with that, but I don't agree with swearing on Bibles, "In God We Trust," and all that stuff either.

However, I'm torn on the subject of private doctors recommending it. Having a firm worldview that you're confident in, is a true source of comfort, and I've seen people add to their misery as they struggle over "what to believe." My atheism is a real comfort to me in times of stress and coping with the Big Things in life like death, undeserved suffering, etc. So in that sense, I've got more in common with a true believer who can accept tragedy as "God's will," pick up the pieces and go on, than a backslider who doubts and waffles and bargains and rages.

So I don't like the concept of doctors merely treating the body without taking into consideration the mind as well, because I think a firm worldview (whether it's religion, atheism or whatever) and a good set of tricks to help you cope day to day (whether it's prayer, doing something "just for today" or whatever), are part of the key to a satisfying life.

In disorders like alcoholism, obesity, etc. where there's a large mental/behavioral component, I think it's good for a doctor to try to suggest ways of addressing issues beyond just the physical. AA clearly isn't the solution for everyone, but if suggested as one option, and not instead of physical treatment but in addition to it, I don't see it as a problem.

[Starthinker]

I think "cult" fits AA very well. My wife started to attend AA meetings after a couple years of fighting with alcohol. They sucked her right in. I tried everything I could to get her to stop drinking, and yes, she stopped for a while but the AA meetings were worse, for me and my kids especially. She actually spent MORE time with AA than she did drinking so we (her family) saw her less and less. They made her feel like if she missed one function or one meeting that she was a failure and would start drinking again. We (my kids and I) tried to attend some meetings but within an hour or so the smoke was so thick you could barely see the speaker. All they talked about was spousal abuse. I didn't think that was an environment for my kids and so they stopped and I stopped going when it made me physically ill to even go into the building. I'm a non-smoker with asthma and it was killing me. And, they allowed people sitting in certain rows to smoke on smoke-free night! I even talked to some of the regulars about this and was told that we HAD to support smoking alcoholics! So with my wife's prodding I joined the seperate AL-ANON group and all they did was read passages from a book night after night. We'd start, pray, say the oath, read a passage, then on to planning the next big get together. What the f*** was this supposed to accomplish????

So what happened? They convinced my wife that since we didn't attend the meetings that we didn't care about her and she filed for divorce a few months ago. I did everything for that woman and tried to get her help for years and still love her deeply, and this CULT brainwashed her into leaving a perfectly loving family, 4 kids, everything. And guess what? She's drinking again.

So, yes, I hate AA and everything it stands for. It is a CULT that brainwashes it's members just like any other cult. I am still fighting for my wife and would not recommend to anyone that they even look into joining AA.

[Abdul Alhazred]

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