Alpha Centauri VS Earth

[FireGarden]

Suppose that the AlphaC showed up in our solar system and gave us one year to decide whether or not we join their empire. If we decide not to, then they will wage war and force us to anyway.

They've made it clear that as members we would be second or third class citizens. But even so, our standard of living would be better than anything seen on Earth.

AIDS, malaria, cancer all cured. Quantum computers, interstellar space-craft, whole new sciences to explore. And (if you decide you just want to be a spectator in their empire) 3 million TV channels showing 50s reruns. And it's all free, you don't actually have to work if you don't want to.

But only the AlphaC get to vote (and not all of them). Only AlphaC can hold positions of authority. And you have to adopt the AlphaC religion to be a part of the empire. (And that religion makes any on Earth seem rational - but it doesn't require the sacrifice of any intelligent creatures)

During that year given us to decide,
They set up a human colony on Earth (Governed by an AlphaC) in which they demonstrate their medical skills (Christopher Reeves is walking for the first time in years) and non-AlphaC members of the empire tell us what it's like. But who knows if it's the truth?

At the end of the year, the UN is unanimous that we should fight and retain our sovereignty. So war WILL be fought. Whose side will you be on?

[Seismosaurus]

Much would depend on what kind of options they were offering us. If the ACs are able to cross interstellar distances, then they should have weaponry that would allow them to dictate the outcome of any war with total certainty, no matter what we do.

If they give us a choice between surrender and conquest by force, I would fight - better to be conquered than surrender.

If they give us the choice between surrender and total annhilation, I would vote to surrender. At least we survive then, and any political situation will change eventually so there is always a chance that we will regain our freedom one day.

[FireGarden]

Seismosaurus: "better to be conquered than surrender"


Why? Especially if you're so sure of the outcome.

Nice sig, by the way. Babylon 5 had its moments.

[thaiboxerken]

I'd be on the AC side, only if they were hot babes that wanted to turn me into a sex-slave.

[FireGarden]

I posted the question with an idea more along the lines of: "A million dollars. Is it worth a poke in the eye?"

So far no-one wants to fight for Earth!
I'd like to hear from whoever voted for AlphaC.

Is there any one other than Ken?

[bjornart]

I'd go with the AC option. If they have overwhelming fire power it would be better to bide our time and possibly rebel at a later time, rather than ensuring our immediate destruction.

[justsaygnosis]

You gotta go with the certain winner.
Why get anihilated just so we can retain a backward existence?
Any possibility of the Helsinki Syndrome setting in and we start going through co-dependent transference with the AC's.
Besides it would be kind of amusing to watch a superior life form be unable to resolve the Middle-East crisis short of wiping the place out.

[Fade]

I'd go with the AC-ians.

Why?

Our natures dictate that we will do the things that will most increase our happiness (unless we're self destructive, then we tend to suicide anyway), whether that be finding money, or love, or helping others, we maximize happiness.

What the AC-ians are bringing to us a great degree of comfort / health, and thus a greater degree of happiness by my own standards. Personal freedoms are important to me (I will assume that we're not going to be enslaved and forced to mate with certain people, and do certain tasks, and whatever), but living in a sovereign nation is NOT. In fact, one could argue that the only people that would be negatively effected at all are those with the greatest amount of power. I can't think of the last time I was put into a position where my own actions resulted in broad change for anyone but myself and those close to me.

I happen to think that democracy is largely an illusion, that your vote -doesn't- matter, regardless of the "get out and vote!" philosophy that we're exposed to on a daily basis. Anyway, the AC-ians would simply remove the illusion of my having a choice in how the world is run, and give me enough comfort to explore what I want to do, rather than what I must do. That's the problem with happiness, compromise. In order to necessitate our happiness, we compromise our dreams. Instead of going out and seeing the world and feeding the homeless, we get a good job, take vacations, and donate heavily to charity. We keep reaching for our grand goals, but we never really achieve them.

Instead, we dampen them, soften them, and eventually change them all together. It speaks to the nature of our world that few people ever find true, complete happiness. Compromise isn't a bad thing, but our state would be better if we didn't have to engage in it.

[Whoracle]

I'd kill them all, or at least as many as I could. Well not if all of you defect. Then there would be no Earth left to fight for.

[Zombified]

Earth, obviously.

What are they offering us? A few technological toys? We'll figure that all out ourselves, thank you very much. I think humanity is just as capable of that as any decadent space empire. Is it really worth the freedom of an entire planet, to place ourselves not only in political but intellectual subjugation, just to cheat on our exams?

The Alpha Centaurians are only offering us this deal now because they know in a few decades it will be our battleships in their skies, that the whole galaxy will rise up against them, and freedom will ring across the universe!

Never Give Up! Never Surrender!

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Seismosaurus: "better to be conquered than surrender"


Why? Especially if you're so sure of the outcome.

Nice sig, by the way. Babylon 5 had its moments.

Pride, I guess. I want my descendants to know that their ancestors at least gave it a good go and went down fighting.

[bjornart]

Originally posted by Seismosaurus


Pride, I guess. I want my descendants to know that their ancestors at least gave it a good go and went down fighting.

Scr*w going down fighting. 'He who runs away, may run away another day.' I'm for maximizing my chance to actually _have_ descendants.

[Dragonrock]

The libertarian in me says, "gilded or not, it's still a cage", and the redneck in me says, "From my cold dead hands!!".

Since the laws of physics apply to alpha centaurians also, the hardest part for them would be putting troops on the ground. While we would have trouble fighting them, our goal wouldn't be to defeat them, it would be to make defeating us more trouble than it's worth. Similar to what the rebels did in the Revolutionary War.

If we wait until they're here then try to stage a rebellion we would be fighting against intrenched troops and we would have to fight to take land, not to keep it. It would be much more bloody and difficult.

[Thanz]

Interesting question. You have characterized it as would you take a poke in the eye to get a million dollars.

The way I see it is, would you want to fight a useless war, the out come of which is preordained, for no benefit other than fighting the war itself? Or, would you take a poke in the eye for a million dollars, or refuse and get poked in the eye, punched in the gut, arm broken, and no million dollars?

Besides, if I learned anything from Battlefield Earth, it is that we cannot hope to win a war with an interstellar force with our current technology and training. We have to wait hundreds of years while the human race descends to the level of cave people, who cannot read or write, and they will be able to discover our current technology and after a few hours in a flight similator be able to defeat the conquering force, using our current technology that has been sitting in storage for hundreds of years.

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Thanz
Interesting question. You have characterized it as would you take a poke in the eye to get a million dollars.

The way I see it is, would you want to fight a useless war, the out come of which is preordained, for no benefit other than fighting the war itself? Or, would you take a poke in the eye for a million dollars, or refuse and get poked in the eye, punched in the gut, arm broken, and no million dollars?

So, you get poked in the eye and get a million dollars, what you didn't mention is that you have to kiss their butts three times a day to keep it. Being a second class citizen in utopia still makes you second class.

[Dancing David]

I'll die fighting, so I don't care.

Peace

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Dragonrock


So, you get poked in the eye and get a million dollars, what you didn't mention is that you have to kiss their butts three times a day to keep it. Being a second class citizen in utopia still makes you second class.

Would you rather be a second class citizen in utopia or a third class citizen in Hell? After a war, if you are still alive, I wouldn't expect all those wonderful benefits that would happen if you joined the empire voluntarily.

The poke in the eye and butt kissing are going to happen anyway. The question is where do you want to be living when it does - in a nice home, healthy and hearty - or in a dank cave wearing rags?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Dancing David
I'll die fighting, so I don't care.

Peace

I like the juxtaposition of "I'll die fighting" with the sign off "Peace".

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Thanz


Would you rather be a second class citizen in utopia or a third class citizen in Hell? After a war, if you are still alive, I wouldn't expect all those wonderful benefits that would happen if you joined the empire voluntarily.

The poke in the eye and butt kissing are going to happen anyway. The question is where do you want to be living when it does - in a nice home, healthy and hearty - or in a dank cave wearing rags?

You're right, they were better off as slaves. Plus, if they hadn't decided that they wanted to be free then 600,000 people wouldn't have died.

edited to add

You're right, we should have stayed in the matrix. We didn't know it was all fake. Fighting back just might get people killed.

[Soubrette]

Interesting scenario GP - if a tad unrealistic - come on, the UN unanimous about something ;)

I would wait that year to find out what the gilded cage consisted of - I'm with Fade in that I believe society is a cage to an extent anyway.

If life is better off under the tyranny of the Alpha Centauri then I would join them.

If life is better off under the tyranny of the UN then I'd join them.

It seems at first glance that I'd be an AC cheerleader - but I'd want to know more - and I'd probably be subversive when they won but in a very British way :p

Where does it say we'll be slaves Dragonrock?

And Thanz I'm glad you pointed out the Dancing David quote - it made me laugh too :)

Sou

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Soubrette
Where does it say we'll be slaves Dragonrock?

The same place where it says we'd be second class citizens with no rights to representation. I understand human nature enough to know that ALL governments become more oppresive especially to those who aren't represented. There is no eternal Utopia, either we deal with it, or our great grandchildren do.

[Soubrette]

Originally posted by Dragonrock


The same place where it says we'd be second class citizens with no rights to representation. I understand human nature enough to know that ALL governments become more oppresive especially to those who aren't represented. There is no eternal Utopia, either we deal with it, or our great grandchildren do.

But do you understand alpha centauri nature ;)

Sou

[Zombified]

What do you think would happen if the UN agrees to the AC's terms, but 90% of the population ignores the AC religion condition? How will those terms be enforced? Will the ACs bomb churches and skeptic/atheist websites from orbit, or will UN goons shut them down? The tyranny doesn't necessarily have to come from the ACs themselves, but it certainly will from their human collaborators.

And you've sold out your species for what? A few tricks that we'd learn ourselves if we hadn't been interfered with?

[Dancing David]

I know, I know....

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Soubrette


But do you understand alpha centauri nature ;)

Sou

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, I saw they smiley, but I still think you're missing the point. Just about every species in the universe is going to go through the same pressures to reproduce. The thought processes wouldn't be identical, but there probably would be similarities. Since the dominant one is more likely to be able to reproduce, the urge to dominate will, most likely, be certer to all species just like it is on earth.

Remember, Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!

[Checkmite]

What did the Byzantines say while they were fighting Roman subjugation? "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!" It was such an inspiring phrase, till Star Wrek attributed it to the Klingons.

In any case, it holds true: if I die, I will have died free, and spared my descendants a life of servitude.

[Dragonrock]

Here's some blanant countryism. I've noticed that the respondants from across the pond seem to be the ones most likely to say give in to the aliens, while most of the ones who want to fight are from the US. Has anyone else noticed this?

ps. This is my 500th post, hooray me.

[evildave]

Get real, all resistance would accomplish is mass suicide.

The ACs could simply push some of the asteroids in our own solar system towards Earth from space. What would we do? Make a Mars orbiter give them a cross look?

Start with "small" asteroids and comets that only obliterate cities. Give us a chance to change our mind between each, then hit us with a bigger rock.

No troops ever need to land.

At least some forms of independence might be negotiated. If we wait until we're FORCED to surrender, there won't really be anything left to negotiate. A bunch of starving, shell-shocked human survivors that practically need to be kept in a ZOO to keep them alive, now that their planet is a total mess. What would be left of any human culture after the mass extinctions?

"Next up on the list: Montana. Surrender or the whole state will be slag. Go ahead. Give up. You're only making this hard on youselves."

A few weeks later, "Boom!" Montana is visibly glowing from space, and a cloud of ash blots out the sun over most of the northern hemisphere.

"Oh, sorry, looks like we singed a bit of Idaho and Canada, too. Those are the breaks. Getting nippy down there? Now we're going to turn the entire UK into a muddy patch in the atlantic AND swamp half of Europe, Greenland, Iceland and the Eastern portion of North America. Oh, and we'll probably trigger a new "ice age" that you will be powerless to stop, that will probably starve most of your population to death inside of ten years. After that, we were thinking about China and India in one shot. Are you sure you don't want to give up, yet? My finger isn't even tired from pressing this button, by the way. We could always just kill the whole human race and remake the planet as an AC - only colony, after all."

It wouldn't take many "hits" before people were pulling their resisting governments down and BEGGING for AC control.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
What did the Byzantines say while they were fighting Roman subjugation? "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!"

From the Lowest of the Low song A Letter from Bilbao

When I landed here a year ago I know that I believed
That it was better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees
And it's not that I care any less for that philosophy
But I would spend one night with you in trade for all that I've achieved

'Cause I was never much on dreams
And they were never big on me
And I can't dream my way home from a grave-sight by the sea


Lyrics (on official website) here (http://www.lowestofthelow.com/lyric_template.php?song_id=31)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Thanz


From the Lowest of the Low song A Letter from Bilbao



Lyrics (on official website) here (http://www.lowestofthelow.com/lyric_template.php?song_id=31)

I believe the quote itself is much, much older than that.

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Dragonrock
Since the laws of physics apply to alpha centaurians also, the hardest part for them would be putting troops on the ground. While we would have trouble fighting them, our goal wouldn't be to defeat them, it would be to make defeating us more trouble than it's worth. Similar to what the rebels did in the Revolutionary War.



Aside from this being a fantasy post if a culture existed that could make it here from Alpha Centauri I agree with evildave that resistance would be no more than suicide.
Since the winners write history any human descendants that may come to exist would know only what the AC's told them was history.
If the tribal people of the americas never surrendered they wouldn't exist right now.

[Checkmite]

You don't have to beat them....just fight them. It's death either way you cut it, may as well not whelp an entire line of slaves.

[Ladewig]

After reading the arguments for and against, I'd go with surrender. Besides, I don't want to be on the same side as Falwell and Robertson on any issue.

As Alexandre Dumas said in the Count of Monte Cristo, "a jail cell has a door, a grave does not."

[evildave]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
You don't have to beat them....just fight them. It's death either way you cut it, may as well not whelp an entire line of slaves.

Yeah! We could fight! I bet the President would look just like that Iraqi information minister guy! "The entire nation is NOT a burning ruin! A lot of it is under water! Sure, we can't strike back in any way at all, and they can rain destruction down on us at will, but my faith in JESUS says that WE WILL WIN! Have faith! Now if you'll excuse me, while everyone else at this location is about to be obliterated, I'll be flying away in my personal jet to the next safe place to make speeches about freedom and liberty."

[c4ts]

Pffft. Why side with a bunch of mindworms? Just build a bunch of Empath Sentries and keep them at all your bases, jeez.

[chance]

The pen is mightier than the sword, I say fighting the AC is no contest (being nuked from orbit is suicide).

Send in the lawyers and get the AC to battle on our behalf, must be some bleeding heart AC’s you’d think? (assuming they have a heart).

[Zombified]

That works. See, when I say fight, that doesn't mean we all strap on bombs and go running after the first saucer we see. We get to be sneaky about it.

Another option is to all get jobs with the Alpha Centauri civil service, and regulate them into oblivion... "Oh, you want to invade Regulus, well, just have each of your troopers fill out this form, then we'll need that one from all the officers, an environmental impact statement, ..."

(Edit: change Eta Carina to Regulus. Eta Carina blew up already!)

[evildave]

Well, that works. If they have any sort of legal system, I'm sure we could bugger their whole million year old civilization in a couple of decades.

We don't have the interstellar death rays and planet killers, but we do have lawyers.

[FireGarden]

If you can't beat them, sue them!

AlphaC law is a little weird.
The lawyers have to paint their faces blue and are only allowed out of their seats by limboing under their desks. But there is a law we can take advantage of: The Prime Derivative.

It's illegal to assimilate cultures that have less than a certain level of technology. Space age rockets and computers and medicines mean that most of world is elligible to "join" the AC Empire. But the Amish community may not be. Although they have metal ploughs and hand tools for woodworking, they don't use electricity or combustion engines. The lawyers are still discussing what level of technology counts as "modern enough" to be incorporated into the empire.

So, we can avoid the use of force and remain "free"
How far back in technological history would you be willing to go in order to have political representation and freedom of religion?

Or would you still rather live to be a thousand and play with all the "technological toys" in the AlphaC empire?

What if the UN was unanimous about going Amish?
(So there, Sou! :))

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by bjornart


Scr*w going down fighting. 'He who runs away, may run away another day.' I'm for maximizing my chance to actually _have_ descendants.

If everybody had that attitude, the safest course of action would be to surrender no matter what enemy you face.

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by evildave
Get real, all resistance would accomplish is mass suicide.

The ACs could simply push some of the asteroids in our own solar system towards Earth from space. What would we do? Make a Mars orbiter give them a cross look?

Start with "small" asteroids and comets that only obliterate cities. Give us a chance to change our mind between each, then hit us with a bigger rock.

No troops ever need to land.

Precisely. If an alien species can cross interstellar distances, then talk of valiant Human resistance is absurd. They would be able to slaughter us in any numbers they chose, whenever they chose, without us ever killing a single one of them in return.

This is why I made the distinction in response depending on what we are offered. In your scenario I'd probably wait it out a while, sacrifice some cities while I tried to put together some sort of weapon to fight back - anybody read "Footfall"?

But if the aliens turn up with a row of five hundred dinosaur-killer asteroids and tell us that we surrender tomorrow or they drop the lot... the only sensible course of action is surrender.

[CWL]

Originally posted by bjornart


Scr*w going down fighting. 'He who runs away, may run away another day.' I'm for maximizing my chance to actually _have_ descendants.

"A gentleman will walk, but never run".

Seriously, GP - a question a bout your scenario. Would we retain freedom of speech under AC rule?

If so, would it be possible for us to express ourselves through AC media? If not, how would any criticism of their regime be sanctioned?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


I believe the quote itself is much, much older than that.

Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that the quote originated in the song - your post just reminded me of it and how one can say that, but when confronted with the actuality of it may not find it so appealing.

[bjornart]

Originally posted by Seismosaurus


If everybody had that attitude, the safest course of action would be to surrender no matter what enemy you face.

If everybody had that attitude you'd never face any enemies.

[Upchurch]

There comes a point where it is an exercise in futility. In the overwelming scenerio given, there is no chance of defending ourselves outright. To try to do so could mean the end of the species. Given that, why throw ourselves away on a futile gesture?

Besides, as long as humanity is alive, there is a possibility that things will change.

[FireGarden]

CWL
Feel free to make up any answer you like to your questions. (That's what I would have to do, I should admit ;))



I would hate to be in an alien's zoo. If that's what they're offering, then I would do all I could to avoid it. But if they are offering a chance at a productive life (albeit on their terms) then I may be inclined to agree with Fade and say that life could well be better under those circumstances. Freud reckoned that all you need to be happy is to be loved and to be engaged in productive work. They can't want us for menial labour (they have machines). So surely we would be engaged in some kind of exploration/research. Either scientific, geographic or artistic. (And so far they haven't banned friends)

The British managed the industrial revolution in spite of "cheating on their exams" (As Zombified would put it) So too every other great civilization cheated by copying what came before. Humanity could still be productive, I think, as part of the AC Empire.

I think I'd choose joining the empire rather than becoming Amish or waging war. (Maybe the lawyers will come up with another alternative)

[EdipisReks]

i voted that i would fight for Earth. afterall, i've seen V, so i know how to fight the alien oppressors.

[Dragonrock]

I had thought of it more along the lines of subjugation rather than blowing the crap out of us. If they show up with things that can destroy entire cities without thinking about it, then the only sane thing to do is give in. If they brought in occupation forces to police the world and enforce their edicts then we should fight.

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by bjornart


If everybody had that attitude you'd never face any enemies.

True. Replace "everybody" with "all Humans", then.

[Fade]

Babylon 5 addressed this, sort of.

There was one species called the Centauri (no, not kidding) who came to a race called the Narn. The Centauri, in B5 world, were already a fairly large empire of vast technological significance. They came to Narn and brought them into the interstellar universe. Over time, the Centauri turned the Narn into what amounts to slaves. So, they fought off the Centauri through a war of attrition. Simply make the world so unappealing that they leave.

In the end, it was all futile, as the entire Narn infrastructure was bombed "back to the stone age," they're government disbanded (the leaders executed), and most of their ships destroyed. Their resistance meant nothing in the end, because now all they really have is their pride. JMS tried to play this off as being a noble thing, but I always thought it was rather stupid in the context of the story.

A burning rubble of a world with no resources, and the constant threat of further death from above is enough to make me submit to slavery.

[EdipisReks]

Originally posted by Fade
Babylon 5 addressed this, sort of.

There was one species called the Centauri (no, not kidding) who came to a race called the Narn. The Centauri, in B5 world, were already a fairly large empire of vast technological significance. They came to Narn and brought them into the interstellar universe. Over time, the Centauri turned the Narn into what amounts to slaves. So, they fought off the Centauri through a war of attrition. Simply make the world so unappealing that they leave.

In the end, it was all futile, as the entire Narn infrastructure was bombed "back to the stone age," they're government disbanded (the leaders executed), and most of their ships destroyed. Their resistance meant nothing in the end, because now all they really have is their pride. JMS tried to play this off as being a noble thing, but I always thought it was rather stupid in the context of the story.

A burning rubble of a world with no resources, and the constant threat of further death from above is enough to make me submit to slavery.

i think you missed the point of what JMS was doing. especially when you figure in the history the Narn had with the Shadows.

[Fade]

i think you missed the point of what JMS was doing. especially when you figure in the history the Narn had with the Shadows.

I understood it perfectly. I was simply using as an example.

The Narns are the oppressed. From the Shadows wiping out their telepathy, to the Centauri raping their populace.

[Trollbane]

Now would being a part of the AC empire allow the humans to gain the latest and newest weapon technology :)

Not to mention a nice planet full of unsuspecting aliens?

[CWL]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
CWL
Feel free to make up any answer you like to your questions. (That's what I would have to do, I should admit ;))
Well I suppose my point was that if we retain human rights and fundamental freedoms, including freedom of speech, living under the AC regime would naturally be more edible. Although we would not formally be part of the regime, we would be able to influence it if we had freedom of speech.

[A_Feeble_Mind]

Assuming at least some similarity with the earthlings, I would be for joining the AC and opposing the second class citizen status from the start:

"I have a dream that one day my children will not judge a being by the number of its appendages..."

[EdipisReks]

Originally posted by Fade


I understood it perfectly. I was simply using as an example.

The Narns are the oppressed. From the Shadows wiping out their telepathy, to the Centauri raping their populace.

yes, but the point was that the Narn always fight back, even when they have less to lose when the give up. why? because they take their beliefs, not their pride, to be more important than life and civilzation and decency. at a certain point, however, some of them regain their heads and realize what they have been doing and try to rebuild the society on a more sane foundation. imo, JMS was using it as a commentary on a certain segment of society.

[St_Hereticus]

The easist way for them to deal with us would be to put something very large between Earth and the sun, something that would completely block the sunlight from reaching us. I think there is an L-point (where SOHO is located) that would be ideal for the purpose. and it wouldn't even have to be high-tech at all.

[c4ts]

Why don't they just tug our planet slightly out of orbit, changing the climate to better suit their needs?

[Leif Roar]

If the decision has been made to fight back, I would fight on the side of Earth. That's where my loyalities lies.

[c4ts]

I don't know... if life is really better off with the aliens, if I don't have to be a slave or anything, if they're not planning to make us extinct, then I'll side with the aliens, and teach the new society of second-class citizens about civil rights (and why we diserve them). I'm thinking a rebellion from within the system a few decades or generations later might be more successfull than outright resistance. We don't want to end up like the Native Americans, after all.