gasmonso's Challenge!

[gasmonso]

Ok, here's the deal...

I have spoken with my sister and told her about the grilling I (rightfully) received here. In addition, we spoke to great lengths about the Ouija, psychics, and people who see dead people.

My sister's friend at work apparently see's and speaks with dead people....ok stop laughing. In addition, she has a good psychic friend here in town here. So what we've decided to do is this...

I will visit the psychic if she still is doing readings. I would like people on here to advise me on how to approach it so she has as little info as possible. I don't want her to know anything about me, etc.

Next, I will visit my sisters friend who can see dead people. I'd like to hear from all of you on how to test this... any idea, thoughts, etc..

Finally, we are going to get a Ouija board and attempt to contact whomever... hopefully Z. We still have to find a place to use it since my sister, mom, and my wife won't allow it in their homes. Again I would like thoughts, ideas, etc to do a good test.

I know what you're all thinking....gasmonso is a super freak and has some really weird family and friends. Well I guess that true to an extent. But please refrain from personal insults as I will cry ;)

I hope this will push me to back my claims up and hopefully shed some light on the paranormal.

[Curnir]

first thought.

1. Get a board with a setup you are not familiar with.
2. Rigg up a camera*
3. Do it blindfolded and check results after.

Edited after spidey's post
*videocamera + audio

[Spidey13]

My main advice is to record (audio and/or video) everything.

[Blackwell]

Ok, here's the deal...

I have spoken with my sister and told her about the grilling I (rightfully) received here. In addition, we spoke to great lengths about the Ouija, psychics, and people who see dead people.

My sister's friend at work apparently see's and speaks with dead people....ok stop laughing. In addition, she has a good psychic friend here in town here. So what we've decided to do is this...

I will visit the psychic if she still is doing readings. I would like people on here to advise me on how to approach it so she has as little info as possible. I don't want her to know anything about me, etc.

Next, I will visit my sisters friend who can see dead people. I'd like to hear from all of you on how to test this... any idea, thoughts, etc..

Finally, we are going to get a Ouija board and attempt to contact whomever... hopefully Z. We still have to find a place to use it since my sister, mom, and my wife won't allow it in their homes. Again I would like thoughts, ideas, etc to do a good test.

Hey there Gasmonso,
Good for you on attempting a test. Your post is a little confusing, though - are you attempting to make 3 seperate tests? Or do your three suggestions tie in together some how? Maybe you can start with just one of your claims, and the members here can help you put together an acceptible test, and then you can move on to the next claim. However, if you're trying to tie them all together, maybe you can explain that a little better.

I know what you're all thinking....gasmonso is a super freak and has some really weird family and friends. Well I guess that true to an extent. But please refrain from personal insults as I will cry ;)
Come on - you're a Marine! You can handle it! ;)

[gasmonso]

Well they are seperate, but will all be taking place within the next month. The psychic will probably be a onetime deal. As for my sister's friend who see's dead people... I can probably see her several times since she lives close by. As for the Ouija, hopefully that will be an ongoing thing.

But each event in itself is seperate. I'm going to busy I guess.

gasmonso

[Freethinker]

With the psychic, don't answer yes to any questions unless they are right, and don't provide more than they ask for. For example, if they say "I'm sensing someone with the letter D, do you know of someone?" Just say yes or no. Don't say "Oh yes! My dad's name was Don and he died in a car wreck last year!" You've just given them enough information to go on for a week. Don't volunteer anything.

[Overman]

For the second test, die and then see if she can see you!:yikes:

[Ipecac]

Ok, here's the deal...
My sister's friend at work apparently see's and speaks with dead people....ok stop laughing. In addition, she has a good psychic friend here in town here. So what we've decided to do is this...

I will visit the psychic if she still is doing readings. I would like people on here to advise me on how to approach it so she has as little info as possible. I don't want her to know anything about me, etc.

The psychic is already tainted as far as doing readings on you. Your sister's friend may have mentioned your sister (or may mention her once you set this up) and, intentionally or not, given her all kinds of information. If the psychic even knows your sister's name that means she can dig up all kinds of information on you. Since you can't rule this out, it pretty much invalidates any hits she gets on you.

[Mr. Scott]

please refrain from personal insults as I will cry ;)


Ask Tom Hanks said, "there's no crying in studying the paranormal!"

I hope this will push me to back my claims up and hopefully shed some light on the paranormal.

I saw evidence in your blog and posts that you believed there were both fake and real psychics, and that you didn't like being taken in by fakes. Right? That's were healthy skepticism comes in. Trouble is, historically, when honest researchers eliminated every fake medium, none remained. Perhaps you could think long and hard about this and explain why you feel your research is special and will be any different.

That being said...

If you are as open-minded and truth-seeking as you claim, then you need to be ready to conclude one of the following with equal likelihood:

1) That paranormal stuff is real and you've found it.
2) That paranormal stuff is real but you can't find it.
3) That you can't find paranormal stuff and it likely isn't real (and no tears).

Are you open-minded enough to accept #2 or #3 if your experiments lead you to those conclusions?

OK, good.

Please videotape your Ouija sessions and audiotape your psychic readings. I bet you will not get permission from a phone psychic to tape the calls so don't ask. Please report to this forum honestly and completely about these sessions.

If you feel that your experiments show psychic stuff is real, then go for your million dollars. Randi's money awaits your proof.

[Starrman]

The psychic is already tainted as far as doing readings on you. Your sister's friend may have mentioned your sister (or may mention her once you set this up) and, intentionally or not, given her all kinds of information. If the psychic even knows your sister's name that means she can dig up all kinds of information on you. Since you can't rule this out, it pretty much invalidates any hits she gets on you.

This is critical - perhaps you could find a volunteer in the area unknown to your sister or the psychic, have them trained in how to not give away information and have them sit with you observing/recording. In fact, I suggest letting your sister and the psychic think it is you until the day of the test and then bring the other sitter the day of the reading.

[Freethinker]

This is critical - perhaps you could find a volunteer in the area unknown to your sister or the psychic, have them trained in how to not give away information and have them sit with you observing/recording. In fact, I suggest letting your sister and the psychic think it is you until the day of the test and then bring the other sitter the day of the reading.

Better yet, send the volunteer in your place, pretending to be you. Her advance information would work against her then.

[gasmonso]

Here's the deal with the psychic. My sister is getting the information from her friend for me. The psychic will not know what I look like, nor does my sister's friend who is giving us her info. I will schedule the appointment myself as if I just got her from the phonebook or her about her.

[Azrael 5]

Better yet, send the volunteer in your place, pretending to be you. Her advance information would work against her then.

Unless the psychic knows what gasmonso looks like! :p

Fair play for coming back gasmonso,my advice in addition to others would be to ask her to clarify her information.If he/she says "Whose got the football injury?" You say "Was it my Grandma?" or similiar.Make her commit to statements.;)

[KingMerv00]

I know what you're all thinking....gasmonso is a super freak and has some really weird family and friends. Well I guess that true to an extent. But please refrain from personal insults as I will cry ;)

I cannot speak for everyone here but I don't think you have "weird friends".

Ignorance is not a sin. It's just a shame.

[RSLancastr]

Ignorance is not a sin. It's just a shame.And it's treatable.

[Dunstan]

Here's the deal with the psychic. My sister is getting the information from her friend for me. The psychic will not know what I look like, nor does my sister's friend who is giving us her info. I will schedule the appointment myself as if I just got her from the phonebook or her about her.

Are you sure that your sister and her friend wouldn't conspire behind your back just to teach you and us nasty skeptics a lesson?

Ok, putting that aside. Make sure that your clothing and physical appearance gives as few clues as possible. Military guys aren't that hard to spot, so she'll probably "get" that one just based on your age, haircut, demeanor, etc. But try to give away as little information as possible, e.g. cover up any visible tattoos; don't wear any clothing or jewelry that would give away anything about you.

[Nucular]

Re: the person who sees dead people.

First, I'm assuming she's not a murderess or an undertaker ;)

In order to see if there's anything that might be testable there, I think we need to know more. Anything else you can tell us or find out about that? E.g., what sort of control does she have over the phenomenon? Can she communicate with the dead people? In what form does she see them? Did she realise she had the 'ability' before or after the release of the film Sixth Sense? And so forth.

Re: the ouija board, the key really is to get it to tell you stuff the people present (hands on glass or not) demonstrably didn't previously know.

Such as, for instance, details about people posting here (Azrael and I have already volunteered ourselves as subjects for ghostly stalking), finding out the secret object in James Randi's filing cabinet, or anything else nobody present could have already known. More difficult than it sounds, even when you're talking about us - I bet there's lots you could find out with a search. But I still bet Z won't tell you my paternal grandmother's middle name, where my maternal; grandmother is from, or what colour my car is :)

[Azrael 5]

Can you make sure the ghost doesn't stalk me when I'm sleeping! I just hate being woken by apparitions! :)

[RSLancastr]

But I still bet Z won't tell you my paternal grandmother's middle name, where my maternal; grandmother is from, or what colour my car is. The propblem with this is, what are the "spirits" supposed to be able to know?

For example, how would the spirit of a young boy from (wherever) be expected to know the things you mention?

As Randi is fond of saying, you can't ask a someone who claims to be a pianist to prove it by handing them a violin and demanding they play it.

You need to find out what the capabilities of the people are supposed to be, and design a test around THAT. This is more problematic with the Ouija board. How do you decide what knowledge a given "spirit" is supposed to have? For this reason, I think that testing the Ouija board for knowledge is pretty dicey. Stick to the "securely blidfold the sitters, spin the board" type of test.

[JPK]

Good evening gasmonso.


My sister's friend at work apparently see's and speaks with dead people....ok stop laughing. In addition, she has a good psychic friend here in town here. So what we've decided to do is this...


Next, I will visit my sisters friend who can see dead people. I'd like to hear from all of you on how to test this... any idea, thoughts, etc..

I hope this will push me to back my claims up and hopefully shed some light on the paranormal.

It is refreshing to see someone put their own beliefs to a test. I do agree with Ipecac, this part of your test is tainted. Your sisters friend will have info about you. This is coming from a guy who has been working on a theatrical seance now for about a year. I have asked my friends to invite someone to attend that I know nothing about. Through casual conversation with my friends, not the person unknown to me, I have always picked up on something I could use to startle the unknown person. I am sure that my friends will not remember saying what they did to me.
The best advice I could give to you, would be to read Ian Rowland's "The Full Facts of Cold Reading". I can't think of a better book to prepare you for the way alleged psychics and spirtulist mediums work.
Good luck though. Just remember, the medium, like any actor, is always in control of the show. In a real experiment, the controls would be set, and the medium would have to follow them. In other words, you are planning on playing in their ballpark. Their ground rules. I doubt you will get them to agree to an away game. Your ground rules.
JPK

[ObscureReferenceMan]

gasmonso,

We (well, I) don't think you're a freak. The fact that you're trying to test these paranormal phenomena is a good sign - you're open to the fact that there might be a "normal" explanation. Good luck with your tests.

There have been some good suggestions given so far. Regarding the psychic reading, I would go further than Azrael or Freethinker, and say; don't offer any info. Let the psychic know ahead of time you will be only listening to her comments. We can give away a lot of info with few (or even no) words. And don't be surprised if she comments on not being able to "get anything" (i.e. pick up any psychic info). If you're not cueing her, then...

Also, ask her ahead of time if you can take notes or bring a tape recording to the session. (We'll bug you later about transcribing it).

Good luck!!!

[ObscureReferenceMan]

JPK,

I did an amazon search for Ian Rowland's book and came up blank. Can you point me in the right direction? I've been looking for a good one, and thought one of the CSICOP guys had written one, but lost the thread.

[Sherman Bay]

Ian Rowland's book (http://www.ianrowland.com/Start/Home.html)

[Sherman Bay]

With the psychic, don't answer yes to any questions unless they are right, and don't provide more than they ask for. For example, if they say "I'm sensing someone with the letter D, do you know of someone?" Just say yes or no. No. Why would a true psychic need to know if you "know of someone"?

A true psychic needs no help. Have her/him/it phone you, record it and say nothing. You will still find her/him/it amazing because you will make the connections yourself. Unless you count the number of misses and notice how many there are.

[JPK]

Good evening ObscureReferenceMan.
JPK,

I did an amazon search for Ian Rowland's book and came up blank. Can you point me in the right direction? I've been looking for a good one, and thought one of the CSICOP guys had written one, but lost the thread.

Sherman Bay has jsut done so. Thanks! This is a great book. Not only does this book show you how low life psychics use cold reading to fondle and disstort the memories of the grieving, but it also shows how the same techinque is used in other professions, such as job interviews, and police interagations.
JPK

[JPK]

Good evening Sherman Bay.
No. Why would a true psychic need to know if you "know of someone"?

A true psychic needs no help. Have her/him/it phone you, record it and say nothing. You will still find her/him/it amazing because you will make the connections yourself. Unless you count the number of misses and notice how many there are.

Who is this "True psychic " of which you speak? :) I'd love to meet them.
JPK

[Ashles]

Finally, we are going to get a Ouija board and attempt to contact whomever... hopefully Z. We still have to find a place to use it since my sister, mom, and my wife won't allow it in their homes. Again I would like thoughts, ideas, etc to do a good test.
Gasmonso, welcome back.

What people around here like is not (contrary to popular belief) blind cynicism, but testing. Which it is heartening to see you also appear intersted in.

Others above have given you advice on other areas, I'd like to concentrate on the ouija board.

First off it would be great if you could video the test, that way you don't have to rely on imperfect memory.

Why not try a mixture of verbal questions, and silent questions to see if the spirits could detect thoughts, after all it appears they are guiding your hands mentally, otherwise the planchette would move without anyone touching it.
If you do, write down the questions beforehand.

Ask what language the spirit speaks - maybe they can demonstrate a fluency in another language.

Ask what job they did - see if they can provide details of some specific tasks they had to perform.

Can they describe their home town/village or a particular monument or street there.

Do they know where they are buried - is there a tombstone for them?

And what were they wearing when they died.

Anyone else got any ideas for questions?

[Blue Mountain]

A thought occurred to me: what if you went into the reading armed with one or two things designed to deliberately mislead the psychic?

For example, clothing. Wear something that's totally out of character for you, and see if the psychic makes comments based on that, like a t-shirt with the name of a band in a genre opposite to what you listen to, or a product that you would never think of using or have no use for.

If you normally wear a wedding ring, take it off and cover the tan line with some makeup.

Walk in with a slight limp (might be hard to pull off if you're not an actor.)

The point is, the psychic is supposed to have extranormal powers that should see through the misleading pointers. If the psychic is cold reading, she (he) will use the obvious clues.

Has anyone on this forum actually tried something like this? If so, how did it turn out?

[BenK]

That very thing was done by Penn & Teller. They had a guy visit 3 different psychics wearing different types of clothes. One for example he dressed quite shabbily and had liquor on his breath. The psychic predictable gave him a reading to the effect that he would find a job very soon even though the man already had one. :)

[TheChadd]

With the psychic

Say nothing at all. Do not nod your head or look excited, just let her rant on for a while. Eventually she'll probably ask you 'does this make sense', tell her that as a part of the test you can't tell her whether or not it's making sense as that could help her cheat.

I would also recommend getting a volunteer that neither the psychic or your sister know about, as the chance of her having gathered information about you is extremely high.

With the ouija board

Just do it on your own, do not get your sister or anyone else involved because they could potentially taint the test. If you're still getting the spirit to talk to you, keep asking it questions that you do not know, or could not possibly guess (i.e. what is the capital of Jamaica - they have to say a word and you couldn't guess it).

[gasmonso]

Good stuff guys! Lots of ideas to sort through. I should be talking to my sister tomorrow to find out more about the psychic and her friend. I will of course pass on any info.

This should be interesting to say the least.

gasmonso

[Nucular]

The propblem with this is, what are the "spirits" supposed to be able to know?
Yes, I agree there are various assumptions inherent in the ghostly-stalking task - not least a willingness by the ghost to 'prove' itself (an assumption largely inevitable in any test like this). Also, the assumption that the ghost can produce this sort of knowledge (things going on elsewhere in the world). I would think at first sight that seems to me to be reasonable, but of course, if that's not part of the claim then it's an unreasonable request.

The trouble with just finding out stuff like where Z died, how, when, details of his life, etc. is that it falls into the trap of past-life regression: vague details can appear to be confirmed (cf Wiseman's imaginary friend study), and of course a trickster could do a very little research and be very convincing.

Gasmonso, what sorts of questions do you think Z might be able to answer?

[chillzero]

With the psychic

Say nothing at all. Do not nod your head or look excited, just let her rant on for a while. Eventually she'll probably ask you 'does this make sense', tell her that as a part of the test you can't tell her whether or not it's making sense as that could help her cheat.


I would predict that (unless this has been agreed as a test beforehand, which does not seem to be the case) at this point the psychic will stop the reading, and tell you that your negativity is making it impossible to proceed.

If/when asked 'does this make sense', just say "Some of it" with no elaboration. She may then pick something to proceed with and rattle on some more, and you can analyse that part later.
Repeat as required.

[TheChadd]

Yea actually, saying 'some of it' is much better, but I imagine she could press for more such as 'what' and eventually you'll have to own up.

Still, I agree, try saying 'some of it' to see if you can get her to continue.

[gasmonso]

Gasmonso, what sorts of questions do you think Z might be able to answer?

That's a good question. I'll be in a better place to answer that once I get on the board with my sister. It's been quite some time so I'll play it by ear.

gasmonso

[Starthinker]

The propblem with this is, what are the "spirits" supposed to be able to know?

For example, how would the spirit of a young boy from (wherever) be expected to know the things you mention?

As Randi is fond of saying, you can't ask a someone who claims to be a pianist to prove it by handing them a violin and demanding they play it.


I may be wrong but I think he meant that if a psychic is talking to your dead grandmother then she should be able to tell you what her middle name is.

As for the test, I "tested" psychics for a research paper when I was in college back in the early 90's and found that not a single psychic would allow any kind of recording with the exception of an astrologist I visited. Back then all I had was a tape recorder and I was afraid that if it shut off at the end of the tape it would give me away so I tried to rely on writing stuff down as soon as I hit my car to get the freshest possible memory. It may be different for you as it was set up between friends but I was a paying customer. Looking back I really regret not asking the one question I should have asked (isn't hindsight wonderful?) and that is, "Why do you object to being recorded?" Knowing what I know now I can't believe I didn't ask that. I will add that two psychics refused to take any information when making the appointment, not even my name, because, they said, they didn't want me to think they would gather information on me before hand.

In any case, be relaxed and at least act like it's entertaining. Like it was stated above, if you come across as too skeptical or obnoxious or anything she may stop the session. And don't lie. That will give her the ammo to explain why "your" reading didn't work.

[Azrael 5]

My experience of psychics/mediums is they usually include a taping of session which you take away same day,in the price.

[alfaniner]

JPK,

I did an amazon search for Ian Rowland's book and came up blank. Can you point me in the right direction? I've been looking for a good one, and thought one of the CSICOP guys had written one, but lost the thread.

Just be sure to do the money conversion if you are not paying in pounds. Yikes.

[grayman]

With the psychic

Say nothing at all. Do not nod your head or look excited, just let her rant on for a while. Eventually she'll probably ask you 'does this make sense', tell her that as a part of the test you can't tell her whether or not it's making sense as that could help her cheat.

I would also recommend getting a volunteer that neither the psychic or your sister know about, as the chance of her having gathered information about you is extremely high

Another suggestion is to make the appointment with the "psychic" letting your sister and others know that the appointment was made, but substitute someone else to keep the appointment in your place, unknown to all. See if this "psychic" picks up on the fact that the person isn't you. Or see if the person you send in your stead receives an incredible amount of information about you.

That's my $0.02 worth.

[Ashles]

Anything happening with this?

[Meffy]

[sfx: theremin]
The spirits are restful...

[Apathia]

You can't generate a complete personality on a ouija board in a day. This takes a lot of interaction and a creative mood. Then, it may not be the right personality. It might be Larry, or Moe.

[Azrael 5]

I long for the day someone brings us all some evidence.Make life so much more exciting.
'Til then Z can join his friends Zzzzzzzzz......

[CLD]

I was going to add that if the 'psychic' or 'viewer of ghosts' knows the fellow's sister, then the test is already compromised. But I see dozens of posters have already made this point.

Re: Starthinker: I don't understand why a psychic should object to being lied to for test purposes. They are supposed to be able to see the truth, aren't they? Why should a reading's accuracy depend on the attitude of the subject?

[GreedyAlgorithm]

Re: Starthinker: I don't understand why a psychic should object to being lied to for test purposes. They are supposed to be able to see the truth, aren't they? Why should a reading's accuracy depend on the attitude of the subject?
Why not? Why should you be able to dictate which paranormal abilities exist and which don't? What if we all have instinctive telepathic shields that pop into place while in a state of disbelief?

That's why the challenge negotiates an individual protocol, to make it clear exactly what is tested, so that presumably we test for something the paranormal practitioner really claims to be able to do.

[Meffy]

You can't generate a complete personality on a ouija board in a day. This takes a lot of interaction and a creative mood. Then, it may not be the right personality. It might be Larry, or Moe.
You speak truth, friend. =@.@= Last time I tried to contact a Stooge, the planchette spun 'round in circles on the board going "woobwoobwoobwoob!"

[CLD]

Why not? Why should you be able to dictate which paranormal abilities exist and which don't? What if we all have instinctive telepathic shields that pop into place while in a state of disbelief?

That's why the challenge negotiates an individual protocol, to make it clear exactly what is tested, so that presumably we test for something the paranormal practitioner really claims to be able to do.

I don't have much experience with psychics, but I'm sure there might be some who don't insist on belief as a precondition of testing.

[hellaeon]

That very thing was done by Penn & Teller. They had a guy visit 3 different psychics wearing different types of clothes. One for example he dressed quite shabbily and had liquor on his breath. The psychic predictable gave him a reading to the effect that he would find a job very soon even though the man already had one. :)

The man was the head of a skeptic organisation from memory...
Its easy to find the farce in it all.

Good work doing a test but be sure its properly done. Once you have a protocol, run it through here so you can get some pretty decent opinions from a range of scientifically trained people. Not me. Hahahaha.

I enjoy seeing psychics come up with excuses about being 'blocked' by my skeptical mind etc when they fail.

Edit: I forgot to say, as others pointed out the test is already compromised. But thats ok, this is where you can show it to be rubbish. Just give her wrong clues. So simple. Tell her when she says crap like 'Im getting a Z' that it was your marine friend Zuus, he died whilst serving...etc..
She/he should be able to pick up straight away your lying. She wont if you just remain sincere.
look genuinely suprised that she knows so much...oddly enough...about nothing.

I really do not like psychics.

[RSLancastr]

Re: Starthinker: I don't understand why a psychic should object to being lied to for test purposes. They are supposed to be able to see the truth, aren't they? Why should a reading's accuracy depend on the attitude of the subject?Because it gives the psychic yet another excuse for being wrong.

Not a good excuse mind you, but an excuse.

[gasmonso]

UPDATE: I talked to my sister and she gave me the phone number of the psychic . I'm going to be calling tomorrow outside of my house as to avoid caller ID issues. Hopefully I can schedule an appointment for this weekend.

UPDATE: Also, my oldest sister agreed to let us use the Ouija board at her place on Friday night. If all goes well I'll have some interesting news to report on late in the weekend.

So any final ideas/suggestion for the psychic reading?

[Azrael 5]

So any final ideas/suggestion for the psychic reading?

Yes,ask her to take the Randi challenge!! :)

[Meffy]

Tell my rich uncle "Hi, and thanks for nothing."

[lister]

So any final ideas/suggestion for the psychic reading?
Please please please try and get a recording of the reading, otherwise we will be back to square one with only your memory of the event to go off. (no offence meant - we all suffer from the same weaknesses)

However I fully agree with others that getting a reading from "a friend of your sister" is MASSIVELY compromised already. :(

[CLD]

UPDATE:
So any final ideas/suggestion for the psychic reading?

Yes, let me hang out with your sister for a while. I will give you a reading that I guarantee will be at least as good as the psychic's. And I'll even charge you 1/2 of what the psychic does. :)

[kieran]

I don't have much experience with psychics, but I'm sure there might be some who don't insist on belief as a precondition of testing.
Unfortunately, "lack of belief" is often hauled out of the excuse-cupboard when psychics can't actually produce anything other than hot/cold reading or parlour tricks.

Great isn't it? If they get it wrong, it's your fault because you don't believe in it enough. :boggled:

However, psychic anecdotal evidence is littered with stories that start "I went to a sceance/reading to humour my spouse, I didn't think there was anything to it ... but then ...". So lack of belief suits them for dramatic effect, but not for testing. How convenient!?! :rolleyes: