The Scole Experiments

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

And here I thought physical mediumship was dead. Not so! The Scole experiments are a bunch of experiments done with physical mediums in Scole, UK. All the usual stuff with apports, moving lights, materializations, projecting pictures onto film, you name it. They even published a book in 1999.

http://www.psisci.force9.co.uk/

I can't find much in the way of critique, perhaps because it is so recent. There was some talk that Colin Fry cheated during one of the sessions.

Does anyone have any interesting information about this?

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I found this article by Montague Keen about the Scole experiments:

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/keen/scole.htm

He repeats many times that the Scole mediums have a scrupulously clean record. How does that fit with the story about Colin Fry cheating?

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

From Keen's paper:There is nothing unique about ESP in this context. To a great or lesser extent the same reaction, and the same process of resistance, applies throughout science, whether related to the acceptance of meteorites or the phenomenon of hypnotism in earlier days, or to the memory of water (Benveniste) or the discovery of "cold fusion" (Fleischman and Pons) in these. There is one important difference, however. Resistance to Benveniste's demonstrations or the cold fusion claims begins to weaken not simply with repeated replications but as some rational explanation to account for the modus operandi emerges from the mists, and is found not to undermine but only to extend the framework of scientific knowledge. With ESP, however, we seem to have a more direct and serious conflict. It appears not simply to go beyond prevailing orthodox concepts but to be irreconcilable with them.
Oh, if only psi was accepted by the scientific community like water memory and cold fusion are! :eek:

~~ Paul

[Mike D.]

Paul,

Colin Fry was not one of the Scole mediums.

Two posters on this board, Mark Tidwell (dogwood) and dharlow, have read the voluminous Scole Report, and thus have a knowledge base from which to speak about this topic.

Mike

[Mike D.]

My current view of Scole:

I have read a number of articles about Scole and have witnessed debates on this topic by Mark Tidwell and others on the TVtalkshows board. I have not read the official Scole Report and thus have more to learn about Scole. My current opinion of it could change.

I feel that certainly *some* controls were introduced into the Scole seances but the controls did not go far enough. Given the controls that *were* in place, I feel that some of the phenomena are difficult to find a mundane explanation for. But unless other groups can replicate the Scole phenomena using more rigorous controls (such as infrared cameras), I will most likely remain intrigued but ultimately unconvinced by Scole.

As Paul points out though, the existence of Scole certainly indicates that claims of spectacular contemporary physical mediumship *do* exist, and that these claims are not simply seen in the long ago past, as is sometimes stated by some posters on this board.

[Mike D.]

See the link below for a summary of a presentation on Scole by David Fontana, one of the SPR investigators. The very last section of it discusses the phenomena the investigators witnessed in relationship to the controls employed.

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=9&pageid=91&pgtype=1

[Nucular]

I seem to remember putting the book down after the first three or four chapters, because the controls just seemed completely inadequate. It was a while ago I read it now, so it's hard to think of proper examples.

One bit I think I remember was to do with one of the mediums (media?) going to bed with a headache, and therefore remaining in the house but unaccounted for all night, while things flew about and disappeared and stuff. Just various things like that that seemed a bit suss.

Another example was - and I'm struggling to remember here - when the controls protecting the sealed camera film were described, there was a clear window of opportunity for one of the group to swap it for another one.

I wish I could remember properly, but the main thing I remember is being quite disappointed that it wasn't as 'experimental' or as well controlled as was claimed. But then I didn't read it all, and I can't double-check it or find examples because I've lent my copy out. I'll try and get it back.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The fact that the experimenters agreed not to have infrared cameras, and apparently no night-vision goggles either, is just to hard to believe. Come on, folks!

~~ Paul

[Mike D.]

dharlow and Mark Tidwell,

Since both of you have read and own the Scole Report, do you recall or can you cite the incident Nucular describes concerning one of the mediums going to bed with a headache?

Regarding the films, I recall reading discussions regarding potential opportunities for fraud with one or more films. Mark, didn't you discuss this one time on tvtalkshows?

Mike

[Mike D.]

Paul,

A question for you. If you had been one of the Scole investigators and had been denied the use of infared cameras, would you have refused to conduct the investigation on principle? Or would you have investigated anyway, taking note of what controls *were* permitted, and trying to determine what was going on?

Mike

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ooh, Mike, that's a tough question. If it were me, I would have tried to sneak in night-vision goggles. And surely I would have snuck in a flashlight to turn on at some opportune moment.

But if were me reincarnated as a psychic investigator, with a different set of scruples, I might think that the request was just too restrictive and refuse to go along with it.

I just ordered the book. A guess here: The Scole people either knew the investigators beforehand, or used the first couple of sessions to gauge just how credulous they were. Then, when they found out that the investigators were going to follow the rules, they pulled out the cool stuff.

Any mention of a fifth or sixth Scole collaborator to move around the room and do the tricks? Did they check for a false wall in the basement? Put a special lock on the door to the stairs so no one could enter?

Why do psychic investigators always carry a big gun and shoot themselves in the foot with it?

~~ Paul

[Mike D.]

Paul,

I hope you ordered the official Scole Report from the SPR and not the popularized book entitled The Scole Experiment by the Solomons.

Mike

[Mike D.]

Paul,

Perhaps dharlow and Mark Tidwell can answer your questions about collaborators, false walls, and special locks.

Mike

[Druid]

Paul,

See http://members.lycos.co.uk/colinfry/index.html for info on Colin Fry...

I have spoken to Colin about this and in fact published his response to some questions I asked him on this forum.

If you wish to see it let me know and I'll dig it out of the archives.

Dru..

[Mike D.]

Paul,

Regarding false walls. One argument I've heard made is that the Scole group would have had to have some elaborate equipment concealed in the seance room in order to fraudulently produce some of the phenomena they did. Such equpiment was never found by the investigators, and when the Scole group traveled to other countries and held seances, the rooms in which the seances were held were not conducive to concealing such equipment, even if the Scole group had been secretly able to smuggle it into these rooms. And apparently the group was monitored on these trips by the investigators.

Mike

[Druid]

Paul,

Looked through archives, see : http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11451&highlight=trumpet

Dru.

[Mike D.]

The link given by Druid says that Colin Fry was accused of producing fradulent ectoplasmic phenomena in seances at Scole. Scole is a town, and Fry could well have held seances in the town of Scole. I still have never heard that he was connected with the Scole experimental group being discussed on this thread. The mediums in the Scole group were Alan and Diana Bennett, and the other members of the group were Robin Foy and his wife, Sandra.

And it was also claimed by the Scole group that their phenomena did not involve the use of ectoplasm.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Mike said:I hope you ordered the official Scole Report from the SPR and not the popularized book entitled The Scole Experiment by the Solomons.
Oops. Cancelled. I'll order the report.

~~ Paul

[Stumpy]

Interestingly, the Scole experiments are one of the areas that need to be rebutted to win the Zammit challenge. The Noah's Ark Report into the Colin Fry Incident is not in the public domain according to Fry. How can anyone have a realistic chance of providing a rebuttal to this issue when crucial information is being repressed? I wonder how many of the other elements of the Zammit challenge are subject to this type of censorship?

Stumpy

[Mike D.]

Stumpy,

As I mentioned in earlier posts, Colin Fry was NOT one of the mediums involved in the Scole Experiments. The issue of whether or not Fry was or is fradulent is wholly separate from the validity or non-validity of the phenomena of the Scole Experimental Group, whose members were Diana and Alan Bennett and Robin and Sandra Foy.

Mike

[SteveGrenard]

Here is a list (official from the actual report) of those present during some phase of the Scole sitting experiment:

Prof. Arthur Ellison
Dr. Alan Gauld (acted as a sitter)
Prof. Archie Roy
Prof. Bernard Carr
Prof. David Fontana
Prof. Donald West (acted as a sitter)
Dr. Hans Schaer
Prof. Ivor Grattan-Guiness
Ingrid Slack
Karin Schnitiger
Montague Keen
Ralph Noyes
Dr. Rupert Sheldrake (acted as a sitter)
Walter Schnittger

(Dr. Richard Wiseman provided a a security bag to hold the film
during some of the sessions but was not an investigator. )

The mediums were:

Alan Bennett
Bernetta Head
Diana Bennett
Ken Britten
Robin Foy
Sandra Foy

Pg 156.

Colin Fry was NOT involved in any way with this experiment. I have a series of e-mails from Fry who says he will never cooperate with scientists in order to conduct experiments and that he has nothing to prove to them re his abilities either as a mental or as a physical medium. I arranged for my wife to attend a session he was to conduct but he never showed up and sent someone else instead. It was held in total and complete darkness and it was impossible to determine if any of the voices and "presences" were living people or spirit phenomena.

I agree that in the absence of infra-red video surveillance of such seance rooms it is impossible to determine the validity of what is alleged to occur. There have been some few mediums who were willing to work in red light or low light in the past but none recently, especially since the development of simple, hand-held vid cameras coupled with the use of non-visible (light) ceramic infra red emitters. We use this technology in the sleep lab. The room remains completely dark but even an ordinary video camera records the subject's sleep looking almost as if it were in full daylight.


Insfar as I am aware the Scole report cannot be ordered online from the SPR but only by post. You can send CC info or obtain latest price and postage first from:

(SPR, 49 Marloes Rd, London W8 6LA, England)

The report is:

Proceedings of the Society for Psychial Research
Vol 58, Part 220 - November 1999. pp. 452.

Listed as authors:

M. Keen
A. Ellison
D. Fontana

(As I recall it was quite reasonable at around ten pounds plus postage).

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

And none of those Profs. and Drs. brought a flashlight to turn on during the sessions. I simply do not understand what goes on in these people's brains. They exhibit so much respect for the Scole groups' wishes that they end up acting like idiots.

Sorry, just venting. :rolleyes:

~~ Paul

[CFLarsen]

Paul,

You are right. It really is amazing to see (probably) otherwise smart people throwing all precaution and experience overboard when it comes to paranormal testing.

We saw it with Scole.

We saw it with Schwartz.

We've even seen it with Steve Grenard, who helped design an abomination of a paranormal test once. He ended up blaming the test-persons for his own faults.

Amazing. Simply amazing.

[SteveGrenard]

Actually Claus I was not involved in the design of that experiment and the controls I recruited were redundent controls or outside controls, some of whose ratings had to be invalidated. In any case the experiment has gone forward and is under pre-publication peer review. The preliminary information given by these controls was very important in helping to showcase some problems the designers of the experiment did not envision and subsequent trials took these into account. Our controls provided valuable feedback so in the end these controls did serve a very important purpose, and I have acknowledged and thanked them for their participation in spite of some leakage caused by one or two of them. Because they were "extra" this leakage did not impact negatively either on the preliminary trials and definitely not on the follow-up trials. For the prelims they had the very positive effect of providing feedback concerning the design of the project and how it was rated, covering such things as gender differences which was completely overlooked in the original design.

Sometimes we have to learn from our mistakes.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Actually Claus I was not involved in the design of that experiment and the controls I recruited were redundent controls or outside controls, some of whose ratings had to be invalidated.

Liar. On 07-13-2002, you posted this on SurvivalScience:

Experimental Volunteers Wanted as Controls
Dr. Gary Schwartz and myself are doing an experiment involving obtaining information non-locally using 4 mediums and 5 research sitters from different backgrounds, cultures and parts of the U.S.

As part of this project, we would like to test the generalization hypothesis by having as many control (non-sitters) as possible rate the information that applies to the intended sitters.

(Emphasis mine)

Once again, you are caught lying.

Later, you claimed you didn't do "experiments", but "tests".

You want to see the whole saga again, Steve? It's right here...

[SteveGrenard]

As the post clearly indicates and confirms, I did not and was not designing the experiment. I was recruiting controls to test the generalization hypothesis. Thank you for confirming this.

Yes, Schwartz, myself, and as indicated numerous others did this experiment. It does not say I designed the experiment.

Again, myself as well as others must remind you that you do not read carefully enough before you make assertions, thus negating the validity of the assertions.

[CFLarsen]

Steve,


Originally posted by SteveGrenard
As the post clearly indicates and confirms, I did not and was not designing the experiment. I was recruiting controls to test the generalization hypothesis. Thank you for confirming this.

Oh no? Then how do you explain this little quote of yours?

The control phase is an add-on suggested by Grenard based on James Randi's proposed testing of Sylvia Browne. Narrowly, this procedure would serve to falsify or validate the generalization or specificity hypothesis, depending on how you look at it. We will ask each of the volunteer controls to rate the inventory of ADLs for the intended sitters as if it were true or false for them. This would need to be done on the specific day it ocurred for the intended or targeted sitters.
(Emphasis mine)

Hm?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Yes, Schwartz, myself, and as indicated numerous others did this experiment. It does not say I designed the experiment.

You said you suggested the control phase. Is that not part of the design??? A procedure that "would serve to falsify or validate the generalization or specificity hypothesis, depending on how you look at it" is not part of the experimental design???

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Again, myself as well as others must remind you that you do not read carefully enough before you make assertions, thus negating the validity of the assertions.

Again, I must remind you that every time I call you a liar, I always back it up with evidence. I can't catch all of your lies, because you make so many. But those I can catch...

[SteveGrenard]

As the additional post clearly indicates, I SUGGESTED this control phase to test for genealization. Once again, I did not design the experiment. Let me simplify this for you.

There is an active phase of the experiment (which I did NOT design). This was the tasks undertaken by the mediums and sitters. The sitters were to rate the information obtained by the mediums regarding their daily activities on particular days.

I suggested the addition of control raters to test Randi's SB generalization hypothesis. This was NOT part of the design of the experiment. It was an add on. As it turned out the controls, which were recruited both from among members here and on the SS board, played an important role in providing feedback on flaws in the design of the experiment. Unofrtunately do to some premature leakge which I did not control we could not use the data to validate or invalidate the ratings but it did provide important feedback which was, is and will be acknowledged.

Again, how you can equate "suggesting" something with the design of an experiment is something you need to work on......
you need to refrain from reading into statements things which are not there. If you want to say I designed the experiment, kindly show us where I said I did that....you cannot, because I did not design the experiment.

In addition, beyond suggesting these conrols and helping to recruit them, I had nothing more to do with the rating information they received, its content or design. I just recruited some names and e-mail addresses. I do not want to take credit for anything I did not do.

The evidence you claim to back up your assertions is puny, trivial and completely fallacious. Hence you can believe you are backing up something with evidence but you need to realize that on the face of it, this evidence which you cling to so tenaciously backs up nothing and, if anything, confirms what I have said above. Thank you again for sharing this.

[CFLarsen]

Steve,

The control phase was not part of the experiment.

Yeah, sure.

You are one weird chap, Steve...

[SteveGrenard]

Hmm.. anyone want to talk about the Scole Experiment? or are we hijacked yet again...

well, sorry must respond:

As all the posts you were kind enough to archive indicates, the objective and design of the experiment was not to test for generalization. This was NOT part of the design of the experiment. So your answer in this case is: No. The experiment
was designed and planned by others before I brought this up.

As the experiment was about to go forward there were no controls for generalization. I reiterate -- why not take this
opportunity also to test for generalization by getting some control raters in addition to the sitter raters? The
principal investigator said okay to this suggestion and this is what was done.

It was never part of the protocol and was an add on.

There are 24 people now involved in helping to set up experiments to test mediumship (not to test specific mediums per se) and any suggestions, including from members here, are appreciated and may be communicated by private e-mail or in public here.

This does not mean that all of these 24 scientists and researchers are designing the experiments. It does mean they are contributing to it. The ultimate design of any experiment, as you should know, rests with the principal investigator.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Hmm.. anyone want to talk about the Scole Experiment? or are we hijacked yet again...

"We" are not hijacked, Steve. I mentioned the peculiar behavior of paranormal researchers, you among them. That kinda ticked you off, so....

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
well, sorry must respond:

As all the posts you were kind enough to archive indicates, the objective and design of the experiment was not to test for generalization. This was NOT part of the design of the experiment. So your answer in this case is: No. The experiment was designed and planned by others before I brought this up.

Read your own words again, Steve:

"Dr. Gary Schwartz and myself are doing an experiment"

This is the first time you bring up "others". Odd, isn't it?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
As the experiment was about to go forward there were no controls for generalization. I reiterate -- why not take this opportunity also to test for generalization by getting some control raters in addition to the sitter raters? The principal investigator said okay to this suggestion and this is what was done.

It was never part of the protocol and was an add on.

Steve, an experiment without controls is worthless! It is simply not an experiment. It's a travesty.

Are you saying that Schwartz designed an experiment without controls?? Because that is the worst I have ever heard. He is very much aware of all the criticism of his Arizona experiments, and now he (along with you, lest we forget) designs one completely without controls?

You do realize what you are saying here, right? In order to save your butt, you are putting Schwartz in a very difficult position.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
There are 24 people now involved in helping to set up experiments to test mediumship (not to test specific mediums per se) and any suggestions, including from members here, are appreciated and may be communicated by private e-mail or in public here.

Who are these people? Or aren't you the kind that tells...?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
This does not mean that all of these 24 scientists and researchers are designing the experiments. It does mean they are contributing to it. The ultimate design of any experiment, as you should know, rests with the principal investigator.

And this principal investigator is....?

[SteveGrenard]

Larsen: This is the first time you bring up "others". Odd, isn't it?


No it isn't. Go back and read again. You really need to comprehend more better ... I immediately follow that statement by listing the participants in the experiment by category.

Larsen: Steve, an experiment without controls is worthless! It is simply not an experiment. It's a travesty.

SInce you do not know anything about the original protocol, you won't know there were other controls but not for the generalization hypothesis. In addition the independent assistant
kept all information sealed until the entire series was completed.


Larsen: Are you saying that Schwartz designed an experiment without controls?? Because that is the worst I have ever heard. He is very much aware of all the criticism of his Arizona experiments, and now he (along with you, lest we forget) designs one completely without controls?

I responded above to this reiteration.


Larsen: You do realize what you are saying here, right? In order to save your butt, you are putting Schwartz in a very difficult position.

More hyperbole. Answered above.


Larsen: Who are these people? Or aren't you the kind that tells...?

Seven or eight pHD psychologists on different faculties,
several physicians, in the UK (Keen) and some British
researchers. We also have several research mediums
(not any of Dr. Schwartz's group) who can contribute if they
wish. They are low profile and do not do mediumship for a
living or even publicly.




Larsen: And this principal investigator is....?

There is none. Anyone, two or three+ of them can take the collective information and design their own experiments.
There is no organized project, just discussion of protocols
so that anyone can benefit from multidisicplinary and multi-
center opinion, advice or suggestions. This is why I invited
anyone here with a serious interest to contribute if they wish.

The group, however, is private so beyond the above I am not at liberty to divulge more information but anyone can e-mail if they are interested in contributing ideas to protocols for testing mediumship and telepathy.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
No it isn't. Go back and read again. You really need to comprehend more better ... I immediately follow that statement by listing the participants in the experiment by category.

No, I meant: Today. You said nothing of "others" when you talked about it initially on TVTalkshows.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
SInce you do not know anything about the original protocol, you won't know there were other controls but not for the generalization hypothesis. In addition the independent assistant kept all information sealed until the entire series was completed.


Now you tell us. I'll bet you can't show us.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Seven or eight pHD psychologists on different faculties, several physicians, in the UK (Keen) and some British researchers. We also have several research mediums (not any of Dr. Schwartz's group) who can contribute if they wish. They are low profile and do not do mediumship for a living or even publicly.

Steve, when I ask "who", I don't mean what you describe. "Who" as in names. Keen is one. Who else?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
There is no organized project, just discussion of protocols so that anyone can benefit from multidisicplinary and multi-center opinion, advice or suggestions. This is why I invited anyone here with a serious interest to contribute if they wish.

No organized project. The story of paranormal research.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
The group, however, is private so beyond the above I am not at liberty to divulge more information but anyone can e-mail if they are interested in contributing ideas to protocols for testing mediumship and telepathy.

"Private". "Not at liberty". Same old s**t from you, Steve.

[Ed]

As I have pointed out many times, the story of Psychic research is the story of lousey experiments. I am coming more and more to the firm conclusion that the researchers involved are engaged in fraud, pure and simple. There is catagorically no reason that an experienced researcher would suddenly go blank when it comes to elementry experimental design EXCEPT if the "flaws" would be fixed on the next go round and the next and the next.

The lack of use of night vision devices is horseshat of the highest order. Since when are subjects informed of the controls that are put in place?

This field is a joke.

[SteveGrenard]

ED: The lack of use of night vision devices is horseshat of the highest order. Since when are subjects informed of the controls that are put in place?

With respect to phenomena that are produced in pitch blackness I do not disagree with you and said as much above regarding the use of IR lighted rooms with video surveillance. However, it would be impossible not to tell the subjects you are using such equipment, including night vision (which also emits a green glow) as it would become apparent as soon as it is employed.
Therefore, it is far better in this instance to get the assent of this type of security measure in advance from the subject. If the subject declines then one can only conclude they are indeed full of manure. The primary objection to any kind of visible light has been related to it's harming of the medium producing the phenomena. I frankly don't see how or why this is true as there have been some mediums in this area who have worked in conditions involving visible light. But even if for a moment this were true, my suggestion about using video and non-visible light which works well quells that objection and I have passed it along to researchers in the UK who are trying to find mediums who produce physical phenomena. Not surprisingly so far there have been no takers. I have watched some videos of transfiguration mediums also and found their performance no better and no worse than any decent actor portraying the role of a person with MPD.

[PixyMisa]

Originally posted by Ed
I am coming more and more to the firm conclusion that the researchers involved are engaged in fraud, pure and simple.I think it's still possible to give some researchers the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are merely idiots. But it's getting hard.

[Psiload]

Steve Grenard wrote:

With respect to phenomena that are produced in pitch blackness I do not disagree with you and said as much above regarding the use of IR lighted rooms with video surveillance. However, it would be impossible not to tell the subjects you are using such equipment, including night vision (which also emits a green glow) as it would become apparent as soon as it is employed

Night vision does not emit a green glow. IR light is quite invisible to the human eye. IR night vision technology is now widely, and cheaply(relatively speaking) available. Sony has integrated extremely effective night vision technology into new models of their video cameras... I know, I own one. If you use the camera in a pitch black room, the room remains pitch black. The only indication of the IR source are two tiny, faintly glowing red led lights on the camera... they emit just enough light to be seen, but certainly not enough to even come close to illuminating a room. Such devices could EASILY be used without being detected... the camera itself is tiny, and will easily fit in the palm of a hand. And the led lights are barely noticible, very dim, and they can be hidden by employing shrouds, and filters over the IR light source. It probably wouldn't even be necessary to hide them, given that they could easily pass for such things as the indicator lights on smoke detectors and such.


http://www.abolins.com/camcorders/images/sony_dcrpc110.jpg

[SteveGrenard]

The only night vision devices I have seen do emit a greenish tinge and on color video produce a greenish cast. The technology which you refer to uses extremely tiny pinpoints of i.r. light and I agree this technology can also be used.

The technology used in videotaping sleeping patients undergoing testing for sleep disorders involve the use of a totally non-light emitting ceramic near infra red array that bathes the entire room (140 sq feet) in invisible light. We use an ordinary b&w sony video camera mounted inside a smoked glass bubble on the ceiling in a corner of the room. Outside we have a b&w monitor (which gives the best picture for this) and remote controls for the camera so we can pan, tilt, focus and zoom without going anywhere near it.

The rooms either have no windows, tight fitting doors or blackout curtains and sound/light attenuating venetian blinds as well as
being sound proofed overall. We also record sound from a room mic and a mic taped to the subject's neck (to do a sonograph of snoring). This extra measure in a paranormal investigation would preclude ventroliquy from occuring as well.

The most famous medium producing physical materializations which defy explanation worked long before this technology became available (in the 40s and early 50s). Her name was Helen Duncan for anyone who wants to research her on the web. She worked in conditions of visible light and in unfamiliar rooms as well.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Psiload, will that camera of yours pick up a human? Someone told me the other day that commercial cameras aren't sensitive enough to IR to record a human, so you need real night vision goggles.

~~ Paul

[Psiload]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
The only night vision devices I have seen do emit a greenish tinge and on color video produce a greenish cast. The technology which you refer to uses extremely tiny pinpoints of i.r. light and I agree this technology can also be used.

The technology used in videotaping sleeping patients undergoing testing for sleep disorders involve the use of a totally non-light emitting ceramic near infra red array that bathes the entire room (140 sq feet) in invisible light. We use an ordinary b&w sony video camera mounted inside a smoked glass bubble on the ceiling in a corner of the room. Outside we have a b&w monitor (which gives the best picture for this) and remote controls for the camera so we can pan, tilt, focus and zoom without going anywhere near it.

The rooms either have no windows, tight fitting doors or blackout curtains and sound/light attenuating venetian blinds as well as
being sound proofed overall. We also record sound from a room mic and a mic taped to the subject's neck (to do a sonograph of snoring). This extra measure in a paranormal investigation would preclude ventroliquy from occuring as well.

The most famous medium producing physical materializations which defy explanation worked long before this technology became available (in the 40s and early 50s). Her name was Helen Duncan for anyone who wants to research her on the web. She worked in conditions of visible light and in unfamiliar rooms as well. Yeah, lot's of mediums used to produce "physical materializations" in darkened rooms before the introduction of night vision technology... the trumpet floaters are a lot more rare these days. And those that do make such claims(i.e.- the Scole Group) seem to have some sort of mysterious allergic reaction to IR light.

Things that make you go... hmmmmmmmm?

The fact that such technology was available, yet was not allowed to be employed during the Scole experiments, is all any honest investigator should need to dismiss the claims of The Scole Group right out of hand. I just don't understand why any honest, competent investigator would waste his/her time and reputation on an experiment that was controlled by the test subject... I just don't get it. The Scole Group's argument against the use of night vision cameras was ludicrously transparent. It doesn't take a trained, experienced investigator to realize that... any fool can see what's going on.

Months of investigation, reams of reports, meetings, debates, claims, accusations, denials... all could have been avoided with a few clicks on Amazon.com to purchase a Sony camera with Nightshot(tm). I'm sorry, but I just can't give the Scole investigators the benefit of my doubt, it would only be charity. They were/are incompetent boobs.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Psiload, will that camera of yours pick up a human? Someone told me the other day that commercial cameras aren't sensitive enough to IR to record a human, so you need real night vision goggles.

~~ Paul Not only can it pick up a human... I can tell you what gender that human is. When Sony first came out with the technology, it was too good, it could actually see right through clothing! Sony had to change the filtering to disable that effect.
http://www.advanced-intelligence.com/smallxray47.jpg Believe you me... it can pick up a human.

[SteveGrenard]

see: http://members.tripod.com/~helenduncan/


Unlike all the floating trumpet mediums of yore, Duncan was a much more interesting case. She was arrested by the British government during WW II for some kind of vague psychic kind of espionage, soon recharged under a relictual anti-Witchraft law, related to her materialization of a sailor (complete with his sailor cap with the name of the ship on it) off a ship that had gone down; the sinking was not acknowledged or publicized by the admiralty.

She was charged under a 260 year old witchcraft act and as a result of her case, it was replaced with the Fraudulent Mediums Act. Although by their admission that this sailor existed and his ship had gone down, as his presence indicated, she wasn't exactly a fraudulent medium. It was a real catch-22 for them. It was determined she was not a German spy, and she was
released after serving nine months or other time in jail (gaol)
related to the same offense. I am glad the British government decided not to burn her at the stake or, as prescribed by the law, hang her for er, being a witch..... at the end of WW II.

She was BTW willing to prpduce a materialization in the courtroom but the government nixed that by insisting she would have to testify to which the defense answered she could not testify if she was in a trance which would be required for her to produce the physical materialization. All and all, an interesting read (see above website).


She continued to be hounded by the police and as a result of a police raid after that she died of a heart attack.

The seance she held involving the sailor was attended by a British naval officer who reported it to his superiors, thus alerting the government to what had happened. The parents of the dead sailor (who didnt know he was dead) were at the seance as well.
The government was clearly not happy about her alleged channeling of a deceased sailor off a British naval vessel, the sinking of which they wanted to keep secret. Churchill later apologized to her according to reports I read about the case.

There is still a movement to have her pardoned officially.

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
ED: The lack of use of night vision devices is horseshat of the highest order. Since when are subjects informed of the controls that are put in place?

With respect to phenomena that are produced in pitch blackness I do not disagree with you and said as much above regarding the use of IR lighted rooms with video surveillance. However, it would be impossible not to tell the subjects you are using such equipment, including night vision (which also emits a green glow) as it would become apparent as soon as it is employed.

with respect, the current generation of CCD low light equipment uses light sources well below rod thresholds. Also, a professional grade IR device would filter out all of the visable spectrum. Finally, the thermal imaging gizmos literally use no light whatsoever. I saw a demo that our local firefighter put on and let me tell you body heat makes for a very decent image. The technology is available.



Therefore, it is far better in this instance to get the assent of this type of security measure in advance from the subject. If the subject declines then one can only conclude they are indeed full of manure. The primary objection to any kind of visible light has been related to it's harming of the medium producing the phenomena.

As I pointed out, observation can be done without visable light therefore the issue is not "light", per se. but rather not wanting to be observed. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I frankly don't see how or why this is true as there have been some mediums in this area who have worked in conditions involving visible light. But even if for a moment this were true, my suggestion about using video and non-visible light which works well quells that objection and I have passed it along to researchers in the UK who are trying to find mediums who produce physical phenomena. Not surprisingly so far there have been no takers. I have watched some videos of transfiguration mediums also and found their performance no better and no worse than any decent actor portraying the role of a person with MPD. [/B]

[Ed]

Originally posted by Psiload
They were/are incompetent boobs.

I assert fraud.

[Psiload]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Psiload
They were/are incompetent boobs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Ed


I assert fraud.
Indeed... let me rephrase:

At best, they were/are incompetent boobs.

Thank you.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
see: http://members.tripod.com/~helenduncan/


Unlike all the floating trumpet mediums of yore, Duncan was a much more interesting case. She was arrested by the British government during WW II for some kind of vague psychic kind of espionage, soon recharged under a relictual anti-Witchraft law, related to her materialization of a sailor (complete with his sailor cap with the name of the ship on it) off a ship that had gone down; the sinking was not acknowledged or publicized by the admiralty.

She was charged under a 260 year old witchcraft act and as a result of her case, it was replaced with the Fraudulent Mediums Act. Although by their admission that this sailor existed and his ship had gone down, as his presence indicated, she wasn't exactly a fraudulent medium. It was a real catch-22 for them. It was determined she was not a German spy, and she was
released after serving nine months or other time in jail (gaol)
related to the same offense. I am glad the British government decided not to burn her at the stake or, as prescribed by the law, hang her for er, being a witch..... at the end of WW II.

She was BTW willing to prpduce a materialization in the courtroom but the government nixed that by insisting she would have to testify to which the defense answered she could not testify if she was in a trance which would be required for her to produce the physical materialization. All and all, an interesting read (see above website).


She continued to be hounded by the police and as a result of a police raid after that she died of a heart attack.

The seance she held involving the sailor was attended by a British naval officer who reported it to his superiors, thus alerting the government to what had happened. The parents of the dead sailor (who didnt know he was dead) were at the seance as well.
The government was clearly not happy about her alleged channeling of a deceased sailor off a British naval vessel, the sinking of which they wanted to keep secret. Churchill later apologized to her according to reports I read about the case.

There is still a movement to have her pardoned officially.
Big deal... there was this guy, like 2000 years ago, that could walk on water, and cure blind people, and stuff.

What the hell does this have to do with the Scole bunch's photo-sensitive allergy to infra red light?

[dharlow]

A lot of the criticism of the investigation put forth here is based on the lack of use of infrared viewers. I don't dispute this point, but I should add that the investigators primary interest was the possibility of obtaining images on film in a fraud-proof container. Had this been achieved, the use of or lack of use of infrared devices are irrelevant. However, it was not satisfactorily achieved to a convincing degree. In the investigators' minds, though, they felt it was worth continuing to experiment using target-based controls, as opposed to subject-based controls, to see if such a test could have been successful. In addition, they were not aware that the experiment would be terminated so abruptly. Now I believe that in such situations, one should always treat each experiment seperately (and hence with tight controls), but I did want to present some arguments in defense of the investigators' actions.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by dharlow
A lot of the criticism of the investigation put forth here is based on the lack of use of infrared viewers. I don't dispute this point, but I should add that the investigators primary interest was the possibility of obtaining images on film in a fraud-proof container. Had this been achieved, the use of or lack of use of infrared devices are irrelevant. However, it was not satisfactorily achieved to a convincing degree. In the investigators' minds, though, they felt it was worth continuing to experiment using target-based controls, as opposed to subject-based controls, to see if such a test could have been successful. In addition, they were not aware that the experiment would be terminated so abruptly. Now I believe that in such situations, one should always treat each experiment seperately (and hence with tight controls), but I did want to present some arguments in defense of the investigators' actions.

I don't know about the images on sealed film being the "primary interest" of the experiment, but I do know that there were aspects of the Scole experiments that absolutely justified the employment of IR monitoring... the floating "spirit lights", sitters being touched by "spirit hands" the materialization of objects (jewelry, coins), "spirit voices" being heard, etc... all of these phenomena took place in absolute dark. Nothing I have read in the accounts of the Scole Experiments has indicated to me that the primary focus of the experiments was obtaining images on film. I have seen this particular part of the experiment discussed, but not in what I would consider a manner which would indicate that it was any more important than any other part of the experiment. I also know that certain members of the Scole group held "seances" outside of their usual homebase of England, and in the one instance I'm aware of, a seance which took place in California, the floating "spirit light" was the produced... in unmonitored by IR, pitch darkness... of course. From what I have gathered, It doesn't seem the "sealed film" trick was attempted on that occasion. The Scole group's refusal to allow IR monitoring during any and all phases of their experiments, to me, seems to cast suspicion on all other aspects of the experiment.

[SteveGrenard]

I need to correct the Duncan account by adding that the British government were not so concerned about her channeling the dead sailor off the sunken ship as they were about her abilities in general. It was learned they were concerned abut her channeling information that might give away new secrets including the date and location of the planned D-Day invasion and this is why they wanted her jailed and kept out of comission until after this ocurred.

[Nucular]

she wasn't exactly a fraudulent medium

[...]

The seance she held involving the sailor was attended by a British naval officer who reported it to his superiors, thus alerting the government to what had happened How do you know she wasn't a fraudulent medium? I saw a documentary including interviews with the sailor who reported her which showed rather a lot of question marks over what she was doing. And it's worth adding that the sailor's main concern was initially that she may have gained information through non-legitimate but mundane means (and remember, at the point the seance took place I believe the Navy were already aware of the sinking, but the public were not), but equally that she seemed to be a fraud - in fact he seems to have helped catch her out on at least one occasion (doing the old trick of responding to cold reading with a fictional relative in mind). The police raid(s), though in at least one case rather poorly executed, concentrated on finding evidence of fraud, and were apparently unconnected to any fear of her 'channeling' confidential information.

Yeah, not too relevant to Scole, but I just wanted to say.

[SteveGrenard]

NUC: "at the point the seance took place I believe the Navy were already aware of the sinking, but the public were not), but equally that she seemed to be a fraud - in fact he seems ..."

The seance in question regarding the sinking of the Barnham ocurred on January 19th, 1944. The admiralty released information, first privately and then publicly in late 1941 (Dec) and in 1942. Therefore it was pretty common knowledge by the time she alleged to have materialized this sailor. What was not were the details which this sailor gave. I have written the author of the article about this discrepancy in dates. There was a RN Lt named Worth at the seance along with a policeman. Worth paid 25 shillngs each for their entry. I think the original assumption about Duncan disclosing something secret before it was publicly known is incorrect based on the date of the sinking, the date it was announced by the government and the date, several years later, of the seance. This then leads analysts to believe that the government either was genuinely concerned she might materialize someone else or develop information about new secret plans including the date and place of D-Day.

I did not say she was not fraudulent. What I said is that the government was taking her quite seriously and were so worried about her regardless of how she worked or developed information that they saw fit to charge her first under a vagrancy statute, dropped that and then under the 260+ year old witchraft act which she was convicted under and sent to jail for 9 months
(until after D-Day).

When the HMS Barham was sunk on 25 November 1941, the Admiralty knew about it almost immediately. They also knew hours later that the German High Command did not know the Barham had been sunk.

One key point in the Helen Duncan story was the cover-up. The Admiralty's cover-up began on 25 November 1941 but was first made public when the official letters of condolence asked the bereaved not to announce the news - and keep it confidential awaiting the "official announcement" which finally came at the end of January 1942.

Here is the official text of those letters. Each of the families of the 862 men lost received such letters, leaving a large paper trail to prove the cover-up did occur. Those family members who lost loved ones from the sinking of the Barham, received these letters regarding the notice of death. The crewman's name has been deleted.

First letter

6th December 1941

Madam,

I am commanded by My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to inform you that They have learned, with regret, that your husband, (deleted here), Royal Navy, is presumed to have lost his life as the result of enemy action on Tuesday, 25th November, 1941.

My Lords desires me to express to you Their deep regret at receiving this intelligence and Their profound sympathy in the great loss which you have sustained.

I am further to ask that, for the time being, you should not communicate this sad news to any but your immediate relatives, who should similarly be asked to regard it as highly confidential. My Lords feel obliged to make this request because it is most essential that information of the even which led to the loss of your husband' life should not find its way to the enemy until such time as it is announced officially, or until your husband's name is an official casualty list.

I am, Madam, Your obedient Servant, (signature not legible)

Second letter

27th January, 1942

Dear Madam,

The Admiralty have released to the press this afternoon the news of the loss of the Barham, so need no longer ask you to maintain silence on the matter.

I know Their Lordships are most grateful to you for complying with their request for secrecy which must have added greatly to your distress at this time.

Yours sincerely

(signature not legible)

Vice Admiral
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am waiting for the movie.....

[Ed]

Originally posted by Psiload
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Psiload
They were/are incompetent boobs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Indeed... let me rephrase:

At best, they were/are incompetent boobs.

Thank you.

I would rather that you not demean boobs (for which I have an affection) by associating them with these charlatens. Thank you.

[Ersby]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
I need to correct the Duncan account by adding that the British government were not so concerned about her channeling the dead sailor off the sunken ship as they were about her abilities in general. It was learned they were concerned abut her channeling information that might give away new secrets including the date and location of the planned D-Day invasion and this is why they wanted her jailed and kept out of comission until after this ocurred.

I'd say it was neither. The UK govt. were very jumpy about security during war. Besides, Helen Duncan pales into insignificance compared to the crossword compiler Samuel Dawe. During a few consecutive crosswords he'd included clues for the words Overlord, Utah, Omaha, Neptune and Mulberry. All of which related to the forthcoming Operation Overlord plan to liberate France. He was arrested and interrogated, but the secret service decided it was a coincidence and that he knew nothing.

[SteveGrenard]

I am not so sure Duncan pales into insignificance compared to the Crossword guy. Afterall even though his puzzles contained code names like overlord, Utah and Omaha (beaches), they didn't tell the enemy anything since they would have to know that these locations and the invasion itself were given these names. Of course he could've been passing on information which coupled with the interception of coded transmissions would tell the enemy that it was of sgnificance. If these three names were all in the same puzzle or in three different puzzles but the result of the same numbered clue then I would say this may've been a possibility.

On the other hand Duncan was traveling all over Britain during the war conducting seances and allegedly communicating with a special kinds of dead persons -- casualties of war, members of the military. In their heightened level of security consciousness the government undoubtedly surmised that on even the slightest possibility Duncan had genuine information then secrets could be leaked. The government and its representatives (e.g. The Royal Navy and the constabularly) were the only ones to jump in and file complaints against Duncan. Not one single sitter had ever done so and there were many. In fact when she was taken into custody following the Barham sailors materialization, the government arrested the other people at the table as well except of course Lt. Worth and the copper he brought with him.

Since they couldn't make a case for espionage or spying against her the best they could trump up was to charge and convict her as a witch!

[Ersby]

Well, I don't want to derail the discussion about the Scole Report so I'll keep this short, but I'd just like to say...

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
If these three names were all in the same puzzle or in three different puzzles but the result of the same numbered clue then I would say this may've been a possibility.


Uh... FIVE names. Read my post again.

[Dogwood]

Coming in late on this as usual. My apologies for getting back to Scole since the thread has drifted a bit and thanks to Paul for alerting me to this topic.

Here are my hit and miss comments on the Scole report/experiment. Are you sitting comfortably? Good.

First, these were not experiments by even the broadest definition of the term. At best they were observed phenomena with serious efforts made to record details. Based on my reading of the official report, I see no reason to suspect fraud on the part of the investigators. Indeed, Montague Keen made considerable effort to investigate the possibility of reproducing much of the phenomena mundanely, consulting with photographers especially. Although I believe he made numerous illogical conclusions after these investigations, the investigation was made and the results (easily faked in the opinion of the photographer) was provided fully.

Controls? There were no controls. The issue concerning IR/night vision technology has been covered already so lets look at something a little more basic....

Lock the freakin' door!!!!!!

The cellar door that opened into the "Scole Hole" was never locked. The mediums were never searched. The table that was at the center of the room and the focal point of all activity was not examined. (The room itself however, was, on numerous occasions. No trap doors or hidden panels were ever found in the walls, floor, or ceiling.)

Now, let me try to describe the floor plan a bit. This is crucial in my opinion. The house in Scole was a two story dwelling with a stairway that led down to the two cellars (that's right, two) from the first floor. At the bottom of the stairs are two doors, each leading to a seperate cellar, one of which was used for all the seances, the other cellar was used as a storage room by the owners. None of the cellars have windows and although they share a wall, there was no door that opened between them. Got it? Okay.

Now. The group usually met upstairs and chatted for a bit before they went downstairs. As they went down the stairs, they locked the upper stair door behind them. The door to the second unused cellar was always padlocked. This room was searched once during the earliest seances but apparantly not again, or if so, this was not mentioned. The door to the "Scole Hole" itself was never locked. This was considered unecessary, because (are you ready?)...... it squeaked. Keep this in mind for a second.

At the start of every seance the lights would be turned off and the group would begin by playing tapes of happy upbeat sing a long songs in order to literally and figuratively "raise the spirits". Attendees were encouraged to sing a long with the sing-a-longs as well. Additional music would be played throughout the evening as some of the attending spirits responded better to classical music or some other personal favorite. (Keep an ear out for that squeaky door now.)

Now I want to obsess on one specific reported "phenomenon" for a sec and then we'll review. Frequently the sitters described feeling "spirit touches" hearing the rustling of "spirit clothes" and feeling "Spirit Breezes" around their feet and knees.

I wanna say that again. "Spirit Breezes". Sounds lovely doesn't it?

Cellars are usually much cooler than the above ground portion of a house. But if you put 6-10 adults in a small one for a period of time it's going to warm up pretty quickly yes? Yes. Now, if someone were to open the door to that room at some point, a door that opened to another below ground portion of the house, what would you get? Why a breeze of course. A cool breeze that rushes immediately to the lowest part of the room.

So, what I'm obviously aiming at is one of two possibilities, or a combination of both. The mediums or an accompice could have left their chairs, and calmly walked out of the room. No one in the room hears the squeak of the cellar door because of the loud music and singing. Said person then produces a key from their unsearched pocket, opens the other cellar door and removes any equipment they need providing a refreshing "Spirit Breeze" as they do so.

Alternatively, an outside accomplice drives up to the house 5 minutes after the seance starts, uses his own key to open the front door to the house bringing any and all equipment he needs. He unlocks the door to the cellar stairs, quietly tip-toes down the stairs, and waits for the crowd to reach the chorus of "Row, row, row your boat" before confidently entering the room and playing silly buggers with all assembled.

But why complicate things? Why not just duct tape everything you need to the underside of the table and pull out as needed. Just tell the investigators that they can't inspect the table because it might interfere with the "vibrations"?

Okay. That's one aspect of things. I'm not going to pretend that this explains everything or even anything. But it is an example of how loose and unscientific the investigation was. Did any of the scenarios I described happen? I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. The point is, they could have. Just like Schwartz's work, the holes are big enough to drive a herd of cattle through. For the record, I don't think the Scole mediums were frauds, I think they were some of the best practical jokers ever.

I'll be happy to comment on any other phenomena, but I rely on dharlow to correct my memory as usual.

Just don't get me started on the sock-puppet.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Good stuff, Mark, thanks. I thought I read somewhere that the table had a solid pedestal that prevented anything from hiding under it?

~~ Paul

[Mike D.]

Nucular,

You mentioned in a previous post that one of the mediums had gone to bed sick and during the seance that took place in the absense of the medium, remarkable phenomena took place. I found an article by one of the members of the Scole group, Robin Foy, in which he apparently refers to this incident. But I got the impression from the article that this incident happened *before* the investigations into the Scole group began. Here's the link to the article. What do you think?

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/foy/scole.htm

Mike

[Dogwood]

Here is a description of the table from the official report pg. 174.

"The central table, around which the sitters were placed during all our investigtions, was about 1.2 metres in diameter and a little over 60 cm in height, and had a compressed chipboard brown-painted circular top on a quadrant pedestal base consisting of ogee-sawn boards at right angles to each other, and extending almost to the edge of the table so as to divide the area under the table into four compartments, effectively obstructing under-table movement."

So, about 2 feet high and 4 feet wide. A circular top on a slot and groove base.

[Mike D.]

Hi Mark,

Glad you've joined thread. I've been hoping that you would!

I don't have the scientific background that you have, but when I said in my first post that I thought that *some* controls had been employed, but not the crucial one of infared cameras, I was thinking of things like having the mediums wear luminous armbands. Couldn't this be considered a kind of control?

How do you feel about the assertion that equipment was needed to produce some of the phenomena, and that such equipment was never found. What about the Scole group's holding of seances in other countries and in unfamiliar rooms. Do you think it would have been difficult for them to function under such circumstances?

Mike

[Mike D.]

Mark,

I believe on TVTalkshows you said that you couldn't explain all the phenomena that were observed, but that you could come up with plausible mundane explanations for some (or many?). If I'm not misremembering what you said, could you give a couple of examples of phenomena that in your opinion didn't lend themselves to readily apparent mundane explanations? (I'm not suggesting here that there *couldn't* be mundane explanations, I'm just interested in any observed phenomena for which mundane explanations don't readily come to mind.)

Mike

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Hi Mark,

Glad you've joined thread. I've been hoping that you would!

Thanks. It's one of my favorites, as you know.

I don't have the scientific background that you have, but when I said in my first post that I thought that *some* controls had been employed, but not the crucial one of infared cameras, I was thinking of things like having the mediums wear luminous armbands. Couldn't this be considered a kind of control?

Not really. At least not in my opinion. If I recall correctly, only the mediums wore the armbands, not the investigators or any of the guests. Although I see no reason to suspect the investigators of fraud, the point is, that without armbands on them, this can't be controlled for. Also, the armbands were just held on on with velcro. Again, the expectation was that someone would be able to hear if any of the mediums tried to remove the bands. More silliness.

How do you feel about the assertion that equipment was needed to produce some of the phenomena, and that such equipment was never found.

Not sure what you mean here. Are you referring to the Germanium receptor?

What about the Scole group's holding of seances in other countries and in unfamiliar rooms. Do you think it would have been difficult for them to function under such circumstances?

Mike


More difficult? Sure. But, if I remember correctly, the phenomena was much reduced when the group was on the road. Less in the way of film evidence and apports and more spirit voices and the like. Of course, Brian Hurst reported Spirit cats and dogs, and when there were photographic incidents, they were accompianied by mysterious "Spirit Lightning" flashes in the corner of the room. (The results of which were later reproduced with blank polaroid film and a pen-light.)

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Mark,

I believe on TVTalkshows you said that you couldn't explain all the phenomena that were observed, but that you could come up with plausible mundane explanations for some (or many?). If I'm not misremembering what you said, could you give a couple of examples of phenomena that in your opinion didn't lend themselves to readily apparent mundane explanations? (I'm not suggesting here that there *couldn't* be mundane explanations, I'm just interested in any observed phenomena for which mundane explanations don't readily come to mind.)

Mike

I do remember saying that, but I don't recall what I was referring to specifically at the time. On a related issue though, I do recall saying originally that I saw no reason to suppose that the mediums would have to have infra red or light gathering goggles to navigate the room in darkness. Since then I have changed my mind, There was one incident in particular that caused my reversal. You may remember one point when Keen was trying to make hand written notes in the dark. One of the spirits pointed out to him that he had forgotten to flip the page and was writing over his own notes. I believe that in order for a fraud to have detected this, they would needed some sort of night vision tech.

[Mike D.]

Mark,

I thought that the assumption was that if the armbands were removed, that, since they were luminous, their removal would be seen, not necessarily heard. But I've not yet read the official report.

As for equipment, I was not referring to the germanium receptor, but to the assertion on the part of some sitters that bulky, elaborate equipment would have neen needed to produce some of the effects they observed.

Mike

[Mike D.]

Mark,

I guess a medium could slip out of the armbands and leave them in place, thus giving the appearance that the medium was still there.

Mike

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Germanium receptor :confused:

Do you think that the Scole Group knew how gullible the investigators were before they started, or was there an indication that the first couple of sessions were "simpler" so that the Group could feel out just how much they could get away with?

~~ Paul

[Mike D.]

Mark,

Near the end of this,

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=9&pageid=91&pgtype=1

what do you think of the assertion of the alleged difficulty of the mediums moving about in the dark without being detected?

Mike

[Mike D.]

Paul,

The link I provided for Nucular above,

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/foy/scole.htm

gives Robin Foy's own account of the alleged history of the Scole group.

As for the Germanium receptor, I know that the group used one and took it with them when they traveled. But I don't know what it is alleged to have done. I hope Mark or dharlow, having read the official report, will have something to say about it.

Mike

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Mark,

I guess a medium could slip out of the armbands and leave them in place, thus giving the appearance that the medium was still there.

Mike

I think it would be pretty simple to pull open one of the armbands with ones teeth without being detected, or failing that "hook" the leading edge of the band onto the blankets that lined the chairs and slowly pull it off. With that much distraction and misdirection going on, I don't think it'd be too difficult at all.

[SteveGrenard]

Page 262 of the report:

Chapter VIII-The Phenomena - Tape Recordings and Diagram

This describes the initial request for germanium and the reason for its presence. It was alleged that the germanium was required in order to record the voice of the commmunicaing spirit on tape without a microphone. Some mics use germanium but there is more then just the germanium itself in such a circuit. Germanium is a semi-conductor that has been largely replaced by silicon.

Ellison, familiar with this says if you can do things with a germanium crystal electronic voice production might be possible.

He goes on stating if you can move a piece of germanium around and press it in a certain way, you might produce electric charges which might be used to speak when amplified and put through a speaker.

To which the spirit communictor Joseph
responds "yes we know (laughter). We've done it!"

The rest of this part of the account then deals with the request for a coherer, a device developed by Lodge who used gemanium (disovered by Winkler in 1886) for this in a wireless crystal radio device in 1894 he called by this name.

Ellison brought the germanium with him for the next sitting which was No. 16 on Nov 9, 1996. However judging from the diagrams of the room for various sessions the investigators continued to record all that transpired on audio tapes ussing tape recorders and ordinary microphones.

Germanium diodes are recommended by some electronic voice phenomenon researchers as semi-conductors which can be used to record EVP messages. You can buy them cheaply in Radio Shack.

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Mark,

Near the end of this,

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=9&pageid=91&pgtype=1

what do you think of the assertion of the alleged difficulty of the mediums moving about in the dark without being detected?

Mike

Fontana grossly dramatizes and exagerrates the complexity of what the mediums would have had to do. His rapid-fire account is suggestive of one person leaping around a room in the dark performing one illusion after another with no regard for detection or personal safety, instead of as many as four practiced people working together slowly and cautiously over a 3 hour period.

Actors and stage hands do as much and more with the same glo-tape to guide them on a larger scale, faster and on a nightly basis.

[Mike D.]

Mark,

Dr. Alan Gauld, one of the sitters at Scole, and a member of the SPR, emerged as a critic of Scole. Would you be willing to briefly summarize the thrust of his arguments, as you remember them, and say whether or not you agree with them?

Mike

[Mike D.]

Mark,

I wish you would be in correspondence with Keen, Fontana, and the other investigators and share your criticisms with them.

Mike

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Mark,

Dr. Alan Gauld, one of the sitters at Scole, and a member of the SPR, emerged as a critic of Scole. Would you be willing to briefly summarize the thrust of his arguments, as you remember them, and say whether or not you agree with them?

Mike

I'll have to reread it Mike. I'll try to summarize it later.


I wish you would be in correspondence with Keen, Fontana, and the other investigators and share your criticisms with them.


Heh. I've already had one correspondence with Keen, (by proxy). I wasn't that tickled with his reasoning.

[Clancie]

originally posted by Mark Tidwell

Actors and stage hands do as much and more with the same glo-tape to guide them on a larger scale, faster and on a nightly basis.

Just curious. Do the actors and stage hands do this in such small quarters, in such close proximity to their audience?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Mike, thanks for posting the link to What the Scole Experiment Meant to Me, by Robin Foy. I just read it.

I don't even know where to begin. I hope with all my heart that Foy was part of the hoax, because otherwise I feel so bad for him I could cry. Jeez.

Is it possible he's an honest guy who was just duped by the Bennetts?

~~ Paul

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Clancy

Just curious. Do the actors and stage hands do this in such small quarters, in such close proximity to their audience? [/B]

As small as the Scole Hole? Probably not. The point is that with practice a group of people can move about in the dark, in a small area, and navigate objects using only small glo-tape markers as guides.

[Ed]

Does Ge give off light under pressure?

[JamesM]

Bumped to preserve the useful comments made in this thread from any forthcoming purge, and also because I just finished reading the Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research that dealt with Scole.

I think Paul also got hold of them subsequent to the death of this thread, too. Paul (or anyone else) did you read them? What did you think?

[Wudang]

I recognise 1 name - Prof Archie Roy I assume was the professor of astronomy at Glasgow Uni from whom I got some lectures. He has an interest in psi powers and was known on campus for his SF books on slumbering psi powers - or so I'm told, I'm afraid while his astronomy book was good, I couldn't get past a page or two. He's also the author of "A Sense of Something Strange" which you can google on. Ho hum.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Wudang
I recognise 1 name - Prof Archie Roy I assume was the professor of astronomy at Glasgow Uni from whom I got some lectures. He has an interest in psi powers and was known on campus for his SF books on slumbering psi powers - or so I'm told, I'm afraid while his astronomy book was good, I couldn't get past a page or two. He's also the author of "A Sense of Something Strange" which you can google on. Ho hum.

Wudang,

I wasn't aware that Prof. Roy was involved with the Scole Experiments. In what way was he involved?

Mike

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I got through the introductory material. Then I tried, I really tried, to convince myself to read all the details, knowing that infrared cameras were not allowed. I simply could not get myself to read it all knowing that.

~~ Paul

[JamesM]

Originally posted by Mike D.
I wasn't aware that Prof. Roy was involved with the Scole Experiments. In what way was he involved?
He sat with the Scole group on a few occasions, I think. I'll go and check the proceedings to see exactly what what he did, if no-one else gets there first.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
I got through the introductory material. Then I tried, I really tried, to convince myself to read all the details, knowing that infrared cameras were not allowed. I simply could not get myself to read it all knowing that.

~~ Paul

Paul,

Do you have an opinion of the criticisms of the Scole Experiment by Dr. Alan Gauld that are said to be included in the report?

Mike

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by JamesM

He [Prof. Roy] sat with the Scole group on a few occasions, I think. I'll go and check the proceedings to see exactly what what he did, if no-one else gets there first.

James,

Thanks! I'd also be interested in your views of Gauld's criticisms.

Mike

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
I got through the introductory material. Then I tried, I really tried, to convince myself to read all the details, knowing that infrared cameras were not allowed. I simply could not get myself to read it all knowing that.

~~ Paul

Paul,

How unrigorous of you! But I am at this point even more unrigorous than you are since I have yet to obtain a copy of the report! :)

Mike

[SteveGrenard]

Gauld had 5 bones of contention to level against Scole:

1. The vulnerability of the Alan Box in which some of the films were housed

2. Some of the images on the film reveal a particular method of manufacture

3. Some of the images are taken from recognizable sources

4. A major part of the supposed communications fdrom deceased SPR members contain material reasoably accessible in the public domain

5. The inadequate controls operated by the investigators.

Prof. Fontana responded to these points. The discussion appears on pp 442-445 of the original report.

[dingler44]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
The only night vision devices I have seen do emit a greenish tinge and on color video produce a greenish cast. The technology which you refer to uses extremely tiny pinpoints of i.r. light and I agree this technology can also be used.


Two common ways of seeing in the dark are light amplification and infra-red.

Light amplification is a completely passive process. The camera is very sensitive to light and does what it can to salvage an image... often these types of cameras record/display in green.

Infra red cameras are not passive as they emit infra red light and record the image by detecing the reflected infra red. However as many have already stated, infra red is invisible to the human eye.

Neither type of night-vision should interfere with in the dark seance experiments... that is unless the mediums fail and need an excuse.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Gauld had 5 bones of contention to level against Scole:

1. The vulnerability of the Alan Box in which some of the films were housed

2. Some of the images on the film reveal a particular method of manufacture

3. Some of the images are taken from recognizable sources

4. A major part of the supposed communications fdrom deceased SPR members contain material reasoably accessible in the public domain

5. The inadequate controls operated by the investigators.

Prof. Fontana responded to these points. The discussion appears on pp 442-445 of the original report.

Thanks, Steve!

Mike

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by dingler44
Infra red cameras are not passive as they emit infra red light and record the image by detecing the reflected infra red. However as many have already stated, infra red is invisible to the human eye.


Does anyone know if physical mediums have claimed that *all* light is potentially harmful to them in the seance room, or just visible light?

I know that there have been claims that certain physical mediums have produced phenomena in full visible light and did not require darkness, but it does seem that more have claimed that darkness is a necessity. I also think I've read claims that a few physical mediums have permitted infrared photography.

During the Scole seances, the spirits are reported to have produced "spirit lights." I wonder why these lights were apparently not held to be harmful.

[Yahzi]

Steve Grenard
CFLarsen busted you on this one. You were caught flat-footed in a lie - or at the very least, a contradiction.

If it was an honest mistake, you could admit it. But you can't. Which leads us to infer that it was not an honest mistake, but par for the course.

You say what you want when you want, and expect people to forget what you said last time. Text really isn't the medium for people that want the privilege of revising what they said after they said it (without admitting that they are changing anything).

[SteveGrenard]

d44 states: Infra red cameras are not passive as they emit infra red light and record the image by detecing the reflected infra red. However as many have already stated, infra red is invisible to the human eye.



Sorry, but the video cameras I record people in the dark while sleeping do not emit infra red. They are cheap back and white sony surveillance video cams. We place a near infra-red ceramic emitter (some kind of ceramic over a power source--looks like a flat piece of brown leather-also relatively inexpensive) in the ceiling. The camera sees and records the subjects like they were in full daylight but there is nothing visible in the room. We use black and white cameras and record in b*w because in color the image appears blotto.

I have been doing this since 1996 and now record 2000 people during sleep tests every year. So I don't give a damn what Larsen says, neither he nor dignler44 are apparently aware of all the technology available to accomplish this.

[dingler44]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard

I have been doing this since 1996 and now record 2000 people during sleep tests every year. So I don't give a damn what Larsen says, neither he nor dignler44 are apparently aware of all the technology available to accomplish this.

*YAWN* Steve, I don't give a damn whether or not English is your first language.

Reread my post. It is an objective description of two technologies that exist and could be used. You seem to think I'm saying they are the ONLY two technologies. If this is the case, I question your reading skills.

Regarding your technical skills - apparently you don't realize that your method is almost identical to the infra-red method I described. The only difference is that your infra-red source is not coming from the camera but from an external and separate device.

[SteveGrenard]

dingle44 check your continuity skills.....I was responding to Yatzi, not you. You may think it is okay for others to "yell" at me and I just sit around and take it and then you chime in and get all huffy about it ....but listen buddy, its not going to happen. I didnt say anything about you save for the fact you may not be aware of other technologies. I am fascinated by the response I get when trying to be polite. So why dont you just cool it?

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by dingler44


Two common ways of seeing in the dark are light amplification and infra-red.

Light amplification is a completely passive process. The camera is very sensitive to light and does what it can to salvage an image... often these types of cameras record/display in green.

Infra red cameras are not passive as they emit infra red light and record the image by detecing the reflected infra red. However as many have already stated, infra red is invisible to the human eye.

Neither type of night-vision should interfere with in the dark seance experiments... that is unless the mediums fail and need an excuse.

Both light amplification and the IR "nightshot" require light to be emitted. The IR requires IR (non-visible) light, and a lot of it. The camera is a regular color CCD or BW camera with the IR blocking filter removed (or swung out of the way). CCDs are sensitive to IR, it takes an effort for them to be not sensitive ti it. The sony camera I have allows the internal IR LEDs to be disabled, allowing an external lamp or LEDs for illumination. If these were spread out and run at lower power, they would not be visible to the human eye as the tiny red glowing square. It's also possible to use IR LEDs with a lower wavelength that is not at all visible.

The "night vision" is not "passive" either as it does require a light source. The light is amplified using an "image intensifier" which then displays the intensified image on a phosphor screen. The screen can be recorded by a camera.

Another technology is used in FLIR. This uses an infrared sensitive element that does not require a light source. There are 2 kinds of sensors... cooled and uncooled. The sensor output is video, no extra camera is required. I've seen the uncooled CCD element priced at 5000$ US a year ago.

[SteveGrenard]

dingler44:Regarding your technical skills - apparently you don't realize that your method is almost identical to the infra-red method I described. The only difference is that your infra-red source is not coming from the camera but from an external and separate device.

Not quite. The system we use is totally devoid of any visible light whatsoever including the two tiny light sources you describe as being incorporated in your IR camera. The room is in total darkness: a/v blinds covered by black out curtains in rooms w/windows, and doors that close to tight tolerance preventing no light whatsoever from entering. I agree our IR emitter is
separate from the camera ... I said that.

[dingler44]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
dingle44 check your continuity skills.....I was responding to Yatzi, not you. You may think it is okay for others to "yell" at me and I just sit around and take it and then you chime in and get all huffy about it ....but listen buddy, its not going to happen. I didnt say anything about you save for the fact you may not be aware of other technologies. I am fascinated by the response I get when trying to be polite. So why dont you just cool it?

Well Steve that might have been clear had you included a quote other than my own. Sorry for yelling at you. I advise you to quote more carefully and thoroughly in the future.

[dingler44]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
dingler44:

Not quite. The system we use is totally devoid of any visible light whatsoever including the two tiny light sources you describe as being incorporated in your IR camera. The room is in total darkness: a/v blinds covered by black out curtains in rooms w/windows, and doors that close to tight tolerance preventing no light whatsoever from entering. I agree our IR emitter is
separate from the camera ... I said that.

Yes, this is still the same as the IR method I described.

[dingler44]

Originally posted by teddygrahams


Both light amplification and the IR "nightshot" require light to be emitted. The IR requires IR (non-visible) light, and a lot of it. The camera is a regular color CCD or BW camera with the IR blocking filter removed (or swung out of the way). CCDs are sensitive to IR, it takes an effort for them to be not sensitive ti it.

No, light amplification does not require light to be emitted by the recording to device. The very definition of light amplification is the sensing and intensifying of ambient light. If you want to combine a light amplification system with an IR system or a system that emits and senses a different wavelength of light, that's fine too.

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by dingler44


No, light amplification does not require light to be emitted by the recording to device. The very definition of light amplification is the sensing and intensifying of ambient light. If you want to combine a light amplification system with an IR system or a system that emits and senses a different wavelength of light, that's fine too.

Light amplification requires light... doesn't matter what the source is. It will not work in a sealed room without light sources. There would be no "ambient" light present.

However, FLIR-type sensors WILL work in a sealed room without any light/IR sources. It is sensitive to the heat emitted from humans.

[Dogwood]

That's fascinating stuf guys. (Really. Not being fascetious) I've always thought that for Scole, light amplification was the best way to go as they was already a great deal of light available. At Scole, there were indicator lights on a tape recorder and a tape player. There were also the glowing wrist bands worn by the mediums and glo-tape all over everything, including the table and objects on it.

Can you two confirm that LA cameras do not emit any electromagnetic energy beyond that of a "normal" video camera (which was also used by the Scole group occasionally)?

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by mark tidwell
That's fascinating stuf guys. (Really. Not being fascetious) I've always thought that for Scole, light amplification was the best way to go as they was already a great deal of light available. At Scole, there were indicator lights on a tape recorder and a tape player. There were also the glowing wrist bands worn by the mediums and glo-tape all over everything, including the table and objects on it.

Can you two confirm that LA cameras do not emit any electromagnetic energy beyond that of a "normal" video camera (which was also used by the Scole group occasionally)?

I can't confirm anything as I have never had my hands on anything but the regular CCD cameras.

The light amplification will require some high voltage to be generated. Perhaps newer generations of elements may require less, but may be harder to get or export. And light amplification is NOT a camera, but maybe someone makes an integrated element with CCD camera.

The FLIR sensors shouldn't emit anything more than a normal CCD camera.

If emissions are a problem the camera could be sealed in a faraday cage or solid metal box with a conductive coated glass for light to enter.

[TheBoyPaj]

In the book "The Scole Experiments" (admittedly popularist), it quotes one of the "spirits" as claiming that it's not the light itself that is the problem, but the electicity invoved in producing it that prevents the phenomena.

Which begs the following questions:

Don't tape recorders and video cameras use just as much if not more power? What's wrong with good old fashioned candles?

[JamesM]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
Don't tape recorders and video cameras use just as much if not more power?
Not to mention the tape recorder that was used to play music throughout the sittings.

[SteveGrenard]

I think you have an excellent point about candlight as an acceptable alternative to electric light. I have passed your comment on to M. Keen for a response. Thus even if the seance was not recorded on video, it could at least be visually rather than blindly "witnessed" by the multiple investigators present at any one time.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

It's the electricity? That is so lame. Another excuse to prevent anyone from being able to see what's going on.

There is electricity in the wires in the walls. Is that electricity far enough away? Okay then, put a couple of cameras in the walls. Heck, shield them while you're at it.

Cripes. It's as if the entire world is a willing dupe to this nonsense.

~~ Paul

[Marc]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
It's the electricity? That is so lame. Another excuse to prevent anyone from being able to see what's going on.

There is electricity in the wires in the walls. Is that electricity far enough away? Okay then, put a couple of cameras in the walls. Heck, shield them while you're at it.

Cripes. It's as if the entire world is a willing dupe to this nonsense.

~~ Paul

Yea, it's up there with claiming they can't have light because it would endanger the medium, and then they go on to produce photos of the medium producing ectoplasm. :rolleyes:

[Nucular]

Colin Fry (http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/004237.html) seems to think that any kind of light, infra red included, will physically damage a medium, potentially leading to death.On the occassions when infa red was used in my own home circle I was left drained and on one occassion suffered internal bleeding !I imagine his photophobia stems from the time when someone turned on the lights during one of his seances, and instead of still being strapped into his chair he was standing in the middle of the room holding the glow-in-the-dark trumpet.

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by Nucular
Colin Fry (http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/004237.html) seems to think that any kind of light, infra red included, will physically damage a medium, potentially leading to death.

That PROVES that mediums are Vampires !

[Ed]

This thing stinks to high heaven. Sniff test? Hell, none is necessary. On the surface of it, it is a fraud. These frauds "did not want to be observed". Please, how can anyone take any aspect of this seriously?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
It's the electricity? That is so lame. Another excuse to prevent anyone from being able to see what's going on.

There is electricity in the wires in the walls. Is that electricity far enough away? Okay then, put a couple of cameras in the walls. Heck, shield them while you're at it.

Cripes. It's as if the entire world is a willing dupe to this nonsense.

~~ Paul


M.Keen doesn't think its electricity at all. I wrote and asked him to comment on this issue and he wrote back as follows:
-------------------------------------------------
I don't think I could have been present when a communicator defended the
darkness on the grounds that the electricity involved in creating light inhibits
the phenomena, or transmission of information. I think it's much more subtle,
and confusing, than that. They do appear to make a distinction between AC and
DC current. My recollection is that the latter is more acceptable. At
Scole, we had one or two tape recorders running, one for recording the proceedings and the second for playing music. On occasion there was a third tape recorder for spirit transmission (e.g. at the two Ibiza sessions and in the final session when the Rachmaninoff music was recorded). So it does not appear to be electric current itself which is the main trouble, but the type of light, i.e. that part of the spectrum which for some reason conflicts with or somehow
inhibits effective transmission. That it does not invariably do so is evidenced
not only by the common use of (usually) red lamps but by reports of spirit
activities in something like broad daylight — e.g. D.D. Home's physical
performances. There was no diminution of oral transmissions at two seances I attended relatively recently when a battery of four mini video cameras was focussed on and around the medium, operating in the infra-red range.

Even with the Scole Group, my colleague Dr Hans Schaer sat in reasonably adequate artificial light provided by a clear light bulb when experiencing a psychomanteum-type experiment to obtain moving images on a video camera focussed on
a mirror which was angled to face the cellar ceiling. It was a partial
success, the results of which were later seen by David Fontana, my wife and myself, but it was this ("Alice") experiment which was subject to increasing interference, and which eventually resulted in loss of contact with the familiar spirit communicators.

[SteveGrenard]

Colin Fry, and his associate David Thomspon indeed work in the pitch darkness for their seances. I arranged for my wife to attend a session with Fry but he did not show up and sent Thompson.

My wife felt that much of what she felt and heard emanated either from a human or non-paranormal source or a tape player.

We were told we would have to book her for 4 to six sessions before any spirits would show up for her -- in other words she would have to become a regular (at a price). When she got there she was asked to leave her pocketbook outside the seance room as were all the ladies. It is my feeling that while the clients were inside confederates of the medium would search through the pocket books for pictures with notes and other remembrances of deceased loved ones. When I complained to Fry about this he answered me by defending Thompson and the integrity of their operation. We got into a heated exchange about the pocketbook thing (he thought I was implying someone would steal money or valuables or make duplicates of latch or car keys to burgle or steal later ...which was certainly possible) but I was more concerned about someone stealing information that would show up in a subsequent session. He accused me of conducting a scientific investigation of him and his buddy Thompson and then sent a check refunding the fee; never heard from him again.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard



M.Keen doesn't think its electricity at all. I wrote and asked him to comment on this issue and he wrote back as follows:
-------------------------------------------------
I don't think I could have been present when a communicator defended the
darkness on the grounds that the electricity involved in creating light inhibits
the phenomena, or transmission of information. I think it's much more subtle,
and confusing, than that. They do appear to make a distinction between AC and
DC current. My recollection is that the latter is more acceptable. At
Scole, we had one or two tape recorders running, one for recording the proceedings and the second for playing music. On occasion there was a third tape recorder for spirit transmission (e.g. at the two Ibiza sessions and in the final session when the Rachmaninoff music was recorded). So it does not appear to be electric current itself which is the main trouble, but the type of light, i.e. that part of the spectrum which for some reason conflicts with or somehow
inhibits effective transmission. That it does not invariably do so is evidenced
not only by the common use of (usually) red lamps but by reports of spirit
activities in something like broad daylight — e.g. D.D. Home's physical
performances. There was no diminution of oral transmissions at two seances I attended relatively recently when a battery of four mini video cameras was focussed on and around the medium, operating in the infra-red range.

Even with the Scole Group, my colleague Dr Hans Schaer sat in reasonably adequate artificial light provided by a clear light bulb when experiencing a psychomanteum-type experiment to obtain moving images on a video camera focussed on
a mirror which was angled to face the cellar ceiling. It was a partial
success, the results of which were later seen by David Fontana, my wife and myself, but it was this ("Alice") experiment which was subject to increasing interference, and which eventually resulted in loss of contact with the familiar spirit communicators. Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos:

Cripes. It's as if the entire world is a willing dupe to this nonsense.

I don't know about the entire world, but from the comments S.G. posted above, it certainly does seem that Keen is all too willing to play the patsy. What's even more embarrassing, is that he doesn't let the fact that he seems to know better stand in his way.

One more thing:

http://thermalimager.bullard.com/whyBullard/temp/IMAGES/MEDT3.JPG

http://www.bullard.com/products/productPhotos/byProductType/V_ThermalCamera/TN_T3HAN.JPG

http://thermalimager.bullard.com/techSpecs/pictures/images/img023m.jpg

Thermal imaging: Battery powered. Completely passive, no light emission (mediumistically harmful, or otherwise) whatsoever.

[Zep]

Why is it that the more we look at the RESEARCHERS in regard to this sort of stuff, the more the EFFECTS disappear?

I know I have an answer...

Anyway, to my mind, the Scoles activity has pretty much disqualified itself as reputable research, or even as "interesting", really.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Psiload

http://thermalimager.bullard.com/whyBullard/temp/IMAGES/MEDT3.JPG

http://www.bullard.com/products/productPhotos/byProductType/V_ThermalCamera/TN_T3HAN.JPG

http://thermalimager.bullard.com/techSpecs/pictures/images/img023m.jpg

Thermal imaging: Battery powered. Completely passive, no light emission (mediumistically harmful, or otherwise) whatsoever. [/B]

I tried one of these things once in a completely smoke filled room. You literally could not count the fingers on your hand and with this gizmo (it looked like the one above) it was like watching a b/w movie, really amazing. Cost 2 years ago was $5k.

Insert requisite snotty comment regarding paranormal researchers about here

[Mike D.]

Here is a long thread on another message board where a group of believers, skeptics, and fence-sitters are debating Scole:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9074

[NullPointerException]

I also would like to point out that they should have had a barometer and a thermometer running to verify the presence of "spirit breezes" as opposed to normal breezes. The people I have talked with say that spiritual temperature alterations should be localized and non-gradiented.


Example:

Normal Temperature:
w=warm space
c=cold space
H H H W <- cold moved in from upstairs
W W W W
W C W H
W W W H

"Spiritual" manifestation:

H H H H
W W W H
W C W H
W W W H

Whereas a spirit the cold would manifest in the room.


Therefore you could have avoided the IR and all that and monitored the movements of people(and anything else) in the room using cheap easy to acquire thermostats.

[Mike D.]

In the thread I linked in my previous post, there is a poster named Desperado who argues vigorously from a skeptical viewpoint against the authenticity of Scole and other mediumistic phenomena, and yet he admits to believing in poltergeist phenomena, as well as in demons and supernatural entities.

[SteveGrenard]

Originally posted by Mike D.
In the thread I linked in my previous post, there is a poster named Desperado who argues vigorously from a skeptical viewpoint against the authenticity of Scole and other mediumistic phenomena, and yet he admits to believing in poltergeist phenomena, as well as in demons and supernatural entities.

While I mean no offense to skeptical religionists, this parallels their dichotomous beliefs as well. How you can accept a supeme being, a holy ghost and a human as a son of the supreme being, Genesis's version of creation, angels, the ressurection, rising from the dead, curing the blind, feeding the hungry with manna, and all the other miracles of alternative science performed by Jesus, Moses, Noah and all the other messianic religious figures chronicled in the "book"...... and then dismiss modern day paranormal phenomena as twaddle is hard to understand. It's as if they are saying that was then, this is now and now this stuff doesn't happen but it happened then... if anything, it should be the other way round.

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard


While I mean no offense to skeptical religionists, this parallels their dichotomous beliefs as well. How you can accept a supeme being, a holy ghost and a human as a son of the supreme being, Genesis's version of creation, angels, the ressurection, rising from the dead, curing the blind, feeding the hungry with manna, and all the other miracles of alternative science performed by Jesus, Moses, Noah and all the other messianic religious figures chronicled in the "book"...... and then dismiss modern day paranormal phenomena as twaddle is hard to understand. It's as if they are saying that was then, this is now and now this stuff doesn't happen but it happened then... if anything, it should be the other way round.

Offend away. It is doublethink worthy of Orwell.

[Mike D.]

Well into the thread I linked, the discussion is joined by someone named Nick Kyle, who says he sat with the Scole group at two of their seances. He relates what he experienced on those occasions. Kyle was not one of the official SPR investigators, and his remarks might be of interest to any who are interested in reading various first hand accounts of phenomena experienced at Scole.

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard



M.Keen doesn't think its electricity at all. I wrote and asked him to comment on this issue and he wrote back as follows:
-------------------------------------------------
I don't think I could have been present when a communicator defended the
darkness on the grounds that the electricity involved in creating light inhibits
the phenomena, or transmission of information. I think it's much more subtle,
and confusing, than that. They do appear to make a distinction between AC and
DC current. My recollection is that the latter is more acceptable. At
Scole, we had one or two tape recorders running, one for recording the proceedings and the second for playing music. On occasion there was a third tape recorder for spirit transmission (e.g. at the two Ibiza sessions and in the final session when the Rachmaninoff music was recorded). So it does not appear to be electric current itself which is the main trouble, but the type of light, i.e. that part of the spectrum which for some reason conflicts with or somehow
inhibits effective transmission. That it does not invariably do so is evidenced
not only by the common use of (usually) red lamps but by reports of spirit
activities in something like broad daylight — e.g. D.D. Home's physical
performances. There was no diminution of oral transmissions at two seances I attended relatively recently when a battery of four mini video cameras was focussed on and around the medium, operating in the infra-red range.

Even with the Scole Group, my colleague Dr Hans Schaer sat in reasonably adequate artificial light provided by a clear light bulb when experiencing a psychomanteum-type experiment to obtain moving images on a video camera focussed on
a mirror which was angled to face the cellar ceiling. It was a partial
success, the results of which were later seen by David Fontana, my wife and myself, but it was this ("Alice") experiment which was subject to increasing interference, and which eventually resulted in loss of contact with the familiar spirit communicators.

I am a bit surprised that you let him get off the hook with such a vacuous reply.