Nationalism And Critical Thought

[blakehaydn]

National Identity

Nationalism is an important element of progress simply because it can be a large part of one’s social identity that motivates him to go above and beyond animal mentality, along with his civilization’s communities. Unfortunately, nationalism is often manipulated by the elite of the nation (financial and political) of which the patriot belongs. It is very easy do this because nationalism is a very emotional feeling, therefore it can be a very simple task to blind a passionate nationalist from objectivity by rousing these patriotic emotions. As we know by science, emotional behavior can highly impair rational thought. This isn’t to say that we must disregard nationalism as synonymous with corruption. This would be a great mistake because we have previously mentioned it’s possible contribution to social health and the physical progress of a civilization. But the corruption that nationalism may serve as a stepping-stone for definitely needs to be placed into check and eliminated.


Nationalistic Corruption

There are a couple basic entities of corruption that nationalism often may harbor (whether it be accidentally or purposely). One being elements of the patriot’s national culture that supports scientifically proven unhealthy behaviors. Not only do these behaviors have a naturally regressive effect upon society, but the previously mentioned elite can also manipulate national culture by continuing to support or even strengthen these unhealthy elements to further socioeconomic control of the population’s mindset. This must be recognized and halted with application of knowledge and critical thinking by the citizenry itself, these unhealthy elements of their culture must be transformed according to scientific research for progression to take place. The second entity is made up of simple lies or exaggerations of truth (perhaps of an event) by the elite or their minions in order to spark the emotions of nationalism into the elite’s favor. Again, education and critical thinking must be standards of the population so that they can respond to and with decisions using objectivity and not emotion.


Enlightened Nationalism

Strong nationalism can be a great advantage for a civilization as long as it does not dominate objectivity and is not supporting unhealthy behavior within it’s national culture. We must resocialize our civilization to research and critically think before responding in emotion to any situation whatsoever. We must also eliminate the unhealthy elements of our culture while replacing them with scientifically backed elements and progress already great elements of our culture that have been granted to us hundreds of years ago. The two unlikely partners of nationalism and objectivity can unite in helping to create a superior civilization, but it all starts with education and psychological understanding of self and society.

[Mycroft]

Blake, what's your plan to get everyone to stop what they're doing and adopt your ideas instead?

[blakehaydn]

Blake, what's your plan to get everyone to stop what they're doing and adopt your ideas instead?

By educating them of a better way or waiting for the destruction of "what they're doing" will eventually bring.

If you are speaking technically, I am trying to organize a group to help me educate by marches, poster campaigns, videos and text.

[Mycroft]

By educating them of a better way or waiting for the destruction of "what they're doing" will eventually bring.

If you are speaking technically, I am trying to organize a group to help me educate by marches, poster campaigns, videos and text.


Okay, don't take this the wrong way, but I can think of people who are smarter than you and who have better ideas on how to run a society. What happens with people that want to follow those people instead?

[blakehaydn]

Okay, don't take this the wrong way, but I can think of people who are smarter than you and who have better ideas on how to run a society. What happens with people that want to follow those people instead?

What do you have against responding to the subject of the post, or do you just like to insult people you don't agree with that much?

Obviously there is something you disagree with, so let's stay on topic.

[Cylinder]

This must be recognized and halted with application of knowledge and critical thinking by the citizenry itself, these unhealthy elements of their culture must be transformed according to scientific research for progression to take place.

How long will it take me to get out of the camp? A ballpark figure will be fine. :)

[blakehaydn]

How long will it take me to get out of the camp? A ballpark figure will be fine. :)

:) How long is it going to take us to stop the damage we're doing to our physical and social environments and get out of a war that's costing us resources that we could be using to work on our own problems? A ballpark figure will be fine. ;)

[Cylinder]

Fair enough. I think the language I quoted above needs to be changed. Otherwise, you'll end up preaching to the choir. As a member of The Great Unwashed, it really does sound vaguely familiar to some other - err - unfortunate events in not-so-distant history.

I'm not claiming that was your intent, I'm just giving you my impression of it.

[blakehaydn]

Fair enough. I think the language I quoted above needs to be changed. Otherwise, you'll end up preaching to the choir. As a member of The Great Unwashed, it really does sound vaguely familiar to some other - err - unfortunate events in not-so-distant history.

I'm not claiming that was your intent, I'm just giving you my impression of it.

I'm not trying to hide any of my influences, but I don't think that the administration of the particular era you thought of emphasized objectivity, critical thinking and an education and understanding of social science for the citizenry. Nor do I hear our current (or previous for that matter) administration emphasizing those great tools of advancement. Blind nationalism didn't only exist in 1930's Germany as many would have us believe, it was just the most productive nationalism ever witnessed.

I'm simply stating this, there are many potential benefits to a strong national sentiment, and if we couple that sentiment with objectivity those benefits will not be manipulated by the elite as they so often are.

[fabian_lidman]

We must also eliminate the unhealthy elements of our culture while replacing them with scientifically backed elements and progress already great elements of our culture that have been granted to us hundreds of years ago.
Unhealthy elements, such as? Cheeseburgers?
I'm getting nasty "social engineering" vibes. Give it up: It doesn't work, ever.
How is nationalism compatible with a rational outlook on life? You didn't choose where you were born. There's no reason -- other than your own emotional bonds -- to staunchly love your home country more than any other place in the world.

[blakehaydn]

Unhealthy elements, such as? Cheeseburgers?
I'm getting nasty "social engineering" vibes. Give it up: It doesn't work, ever.

This is just ignorance, let's take a look at MTV for a second. Have they not "socially engineered" for profit by getting kids to think certain ways and like certain types of music? Capitalist trends are based on social engineering. I am simply implying to social engineer for progress, not profit.

Companies that sell feminine products use certain shapes in their packaging to appeal to the human mind more, could this also be related to social engineering?

And how about unconscious social engineering? Take a look at all the different cultures that have ever existed and their extreme differences? To say social engineering is not possible is to deny the concept of socialization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resocialization

[blakehaydn]

There's no reason -- other than your own emotional bonds -- to staunchly love your home country more than any other place in the world.

I can think of a big reason that you completely overlooked, culture (philosophies, art, accomplishments, strength) perhaps? "There's no reason." So let me get this right, you're saying there is no scientific explanation at all for why a citizenry or individual might feel attached to their country besides emotional bonds that are "just there"?

[Pardalis]

But the corruption that nationalism may serve as a stepping-stone for definitely needs to be placed into check and eliminated.


What do you mean by "eliminated"?

[Cylinder]

What do you mean by "eliminated"?

Shh!

You'll only make trouble for your family.

[senorpogo]

What do you mean by "eliminated"?

I think he meant "elimidated". Meaning that such people would have to go on Elimidate (http://elimidate.warnerbros.com/) to risk rejection and the public shame that comes from it.

[Pardalis]

I think this neo nazi filth should be banned. We all know what blakehayden means by "eliminate" and it's a clear breach of forum rules.

I find this extremely discusting.

[Tailgater]

Who is in charge of having this "control"? Are you not just changing who is in the elite? Who will keep this new elite in check? What if i don't agree with my programming? Can I vote them out? Why am I thinking of 1984, NK, and the Imperial March?

[TjW]

Who is in charge of having this "control"? Are you not just changing who is in the elite? Who will keep this new elite in check? What if i don't agree with my programming? Can I vote them out? Why am I thinking of 1984, NK, and the Imperial March?
Clearly, it is because you are not edumacated enough. Report to the camp immediately.

[American]

I find this extremely discusting.

How can anyone take your complaint seriously?

[Pardalis]

oops. Digusting.

[senorpogo]

How can anyone take your complaint seriously?

Seriously. I was totally going to agree with you, but now I'm siding with the camp, re-education guy.

[Tailgater]

Seriously. I was totally going to agree with you, but now I'm siding with the camp, re-education guy.

Me too. He could bring order to the galaxy.

[American]

Here, you will find many utilitarians (little "u"). We are plenty open to hearing your thoughts as a Nazi, but ... you know. You creep us out.

How can nationalism succeed "better" when humans naturally stratify by class, manners, and intelligence under any system? Even China is wrought with elites, the supposed Maoist haven. No matter the system- it is a royal mess trying to reward individuals and punish the vile, while treating humanely those of good virtue but small capacity to take care of themselves. (If we accept those goals as worthy and noble...)

[Tailgater]

Freewill is always more powerful than any -ism in the long run, even it's based on stupidity or self destruction.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

...I am trying to organize a group to help me educate by marches, poster campaigns, videos and text.

If I join, can I meet girls?

[mummymonkey]

If I join, can I meet girls?Sure, everyone a blonde.

[Alphaba]

Freewill is always more powerful than any -ism in the long run...
Freewillism at its purest! :p

[Rob Lister]

I love it when blonds have freewill...so long as they bathe regularly.

p.s. Natural blonds too, though they be very few.

[Cylinder]

Natural blonds too, though they be very few.

You're such a snob. I see nothing wrong with the drapes not matching the carpet.

[Mycroft]

What do you have against responding to the subject of the post, or do you just like to insult people you don't agree with that much?

I didn’t intend to sound insulting. When I said I can think of people who are smarter than you with better ideas of how to run a society, I meant that in the sense that there are people smarter than any of us, not that you’re stupid. I’m a pretty smart guy, for example, I score very well on IQ tests, but I’m not so conceited as to believe I’m the smartest person, or that my intelligence makes me particularly qualified to be a leader of hundreds of millions.

You, on the other hand, seem to have ambitions toward leadership, so I think it’s fair to ask you what makes you think you’re qualified to make decisions for others. What makes you qualified to make decisions for me or my family, for example.

As for what you said in the OP, I don’t think it’s particularly deep or worthy of comment. Most people, if asked, would agree there are “bad” or “good” kinds of nationalism, but exactly what that means depends on the point of view of the individual. Most will agree that “good” patriotism is whatever leads people to follow policies they agree with, and that “bad” or “jingoistic” patriotism is whatever leads people to follow policies they disagree with. It’s quite natural for any individual to conclude that “enlightened nationalism” that “doesn’t dominate objectivity” is the nationalism of people they agree with because that’s where their biases lay.

In essence, your short essay seems designed to get nods of agreement from people from any portion of the political spectrum, even those people will have very different ideas of what “enlightened nationalism” and “nationalistic corruption” are.


Obviously there is something you disagree with, so let's stay on topic.

I don’t know that I know enough about you to disagree, but I am curious about your ideas enough to want to know more. For example, what will you do when marches, poster campaigns, videos and literature fails to produce a large following? What will you do when someone among those who do choose to follow you decides that maybe he would make a better leader than you and challenges your authority? Or what will happen if the “destruction” that you predict fails to happen and society makes corrections on its own without your help?

[WildCat]

For example, what will you do when marches, poster campaigns, videos and literature fails to produce a large following?
I'm guessing he'll burn down the Reichstag.



:boxedin:

[Zep]

This is just ignorance, let's take a look at MTV for a second. Have they not "socially engineered" for profit by getting kids to think certain ways and like certain types of music? Capitalist trends are based on social engineering. I am simply implying to social engineer for progress, not profit.

Companies that sell feminine products use certain shapes in their packaging to appeal to the human mind more, could this also be related to social engineering?

And how about unconscious social engineering? Take a look at all the different cultures that have ever existed and their extreme differences? To say social engineering is not possible is to deny the concept of socialization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resocialization

1) TURN THE TV OFF AND GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY A GAME.

2) DON'T BUY THE PRODUCT YOU DON'T LIKE.

3) DON'T LISTEN TO STUFF YOU DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO.

Or have I missed your point entirely? And you want everyone to like what YOU like? Watch what YOU watch? Buy what YOU buy?

[Zep]

I'm guessing he'll burn down the Reichstag.



:boxedin:...and be putting the blame on someone else. Probably those people who refuse to conform to his brave new thinking.

[fabian_lidman]

This is just ignorance, let's take a look at MTV for a second. Have they not "socially engineered" for profit by getting kids to think certain ways and like certain types of music? Capitalist trends are based on social engineering. I am simply implying to social engineer for progress, not profit.
Granted, advertisement is social engineering. However, i can look away and choose not to let it affect me. It's a different thing from top-down political social engineering.

To say social engineering is not possible is to deny the concept of socialization.
Oh, but i'm not saying it doesn't work -- i'm saying it doesn't "work", because it will be a disaster.

[fabian_lidman]

I can think of a big reason that you completely overlooked, culture (philosophies, art, accomplishments, strength) perhaps? "There's no reason." So let me get this right, you're saying there is no scientific explanation at all for why a citizenry or individual might feel attached to their country besides emotional bonds that are "just there"?
No. I love Scandinavia, and i would never want to live anywhere else. That's because i grew up here, i like the people and i like the climate (believe it or not).
However, that doesn't mean that Scandinavian culture is in any way superior to Japanese, Brazilian or South African culture. It's just a matter of what i'm used to.
Nationalism means putting your own country on a pedestal, and believing that it rightly deserves to be there. See the difference? A nationalist political party that tells people "Sweden is great, because you grew up here and got used to it" would be fairly pointless, wouldn't you agree?
Nationalism is irrational because it teaches that your grass is greener, no matter whether it actually is.

Oh, and also it's a divisive force that makes people kill eachother over absolutely nothing.

[fabian_lidman]

Or put it this way. There are nationalists in the US, and there are nationalists in Iraq. Both think their culture is far superior to the other. Is one of them right and the other wrong? Obviously no. They just love the country where they were born, and nothing wrong with that. But it's empathically NOT rational.

[Mephisto]

Much smarter men than any of us have made more pertinent observations than most of us here . . .
_____________

"This heroism at command, this senseless violence, this accursed bombast of patriotism. How intensely I despise them!"
Albert Einstein

PATRIOT, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.
Ambrose Bierce

PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of anyone ambitious to illuminate his name.
Ambrose Bierce

"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."
Bertrand Russell

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."
Charles de Gaulle

"We must be truthful and fair in the ordinary affairs of life before we can be truthful and fair in patriotism and religion."
Ed Howe

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw

"When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and purity of its heart."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

"The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country."
Thomas Paine
_________

Is one guilty of blind nationalism capable of critical thought? I don't think so. To perceive yourself as superior for something out of your control (race, culture, birthplace) is in direct conflict with the basis for critical thought.

[Mephisto]

I'm guessing he'll burn down the Reichstag.

Or go to the beer hall where everyone is putsching & shoving. ;)