Truth, Justice, and All That Stuff

[Regnad Kcin]

http://www.billoreilly.com/site/product?pid=20177

Psst: Bill, it's a movie. About a guy who can fly and send heat rays out his eyes. A movie, Bill.

[Regnad Kcin]

Oh, and he's an undocumented alien, too!

[senorpogo]

I'd be interested to know when the original "truth, justice, and the american way" phrase was coined for Superman. Anyone know?

[Tailgater]

I agree. I think "and all that stuff" was a horrible replacement for "american way" though. Couldn't the writers have come up with something a little better? Like a more global version of "american way" if that's what they were trying for. "All that stuff" really lacks imagination.

[Tailgater]

I'd be interested to know when the original "truth, justice, and the american way" phrase was coined for Superman. Anyone know?

I know it at least started during the black and white tv show. Could have started during ww2 when he was fighting the nazis. Comic heros also had to become more moral and patriotic when they were under attack in the late 40s early 50s. One of the news/info channels just had a special on comic book heros, but i forget which one. Wife says it was the History channel.

[Darat]

I agree. I think "and all that stuff" was a horrible replacement for "american way" though. Couldn't the writers have come up with something a little better? Like a more global version of "american way" if that's what they were trying for. "All that stuff" really lacks imagination.

Disagree - it's exactly the way you'd expect a cynical hard-nosed editor to say it.

[Tailgater]

Disagree - it's exactly the way you'd expect a cynical hard-nosed editor to say it.

I would have to hear it in spoken words. I keep thinking of the TV show and how silly it would sound in that way.

[Regnad Kcin]

I agree with Darat. Perry was spitting out directives to a room full of staffers. To me, it was a variation of "yadda yadda."

But Bill "I won a Peabody Award" O'Reilly somehow misses the distinction.

[Pardalis]

I thought Perry White's remark was intended as a joke, from the writers. The "the American way" is implicit.

[Earthborn]

I'd be interested to know when the original "truth, justice, and the american way" phrase was coined for Superman. Anyone know?Have no fear, Google brings us here! (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/30/opinion/ederik.php)

[thaiboxerken]

I'm surprised O'Reilly didn't get into a frenzy over Superman being an illegal alien father of an illegitimate bastard child.

[SPQR]

From the article in the OP:
Please tell Perry White there is no justice in eliminating the American way

This reminds me of Dan Quail yelling at Murphy Brown for having a child out of wed-lock.

[Regnad Kcin]

Have no fear, Google brings us here! (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/30/opinion/ederik.php)A good and interesting piece. Thanks.

[Upchurch]

Mr. O'Reilly didn't touch on even half of it. There was another classic line that was modified in this Hollywood Blame-America-First piece:

Jimmy: gives Perry White a blurry picture Look! Up in the sky!
Perry: squinting It's a bird.
Lois: It's a plane.
Jimmy: No, it's....
Clark: enters Hi. You wanted to see me?


This is obviously an piece of anti-American propoganda! Why didn't the movie producers finish the line? They're in it with the islamofashists!

[thaiboxerken]

I wonder why Superman doesn't help out in the Middle-East. I wonder if supes is pro or anti abortion, I wonder if he's for or against gay marriage as well. I wonder why politics didn't play a big part in the movie.

[Skeptic]

Siiiiggggghhhhhhhhh.

Either O'Reilly is a total idiot, which I often said before, or his rating is slipping and he thinks that saying something outrageously stupid would make people want to watch him, a la Howard Stern.

[thaiboxerken]

It's probably both, Skeptic.

[Regnad Kcin]

Siiiiggggghhhhhhhhh.

Either O'Reilly is a total idiot, which I often said before, or his rating is slipping and he thinks that saying something outrageously stupid would make people want to watch him, a la Howard Stern.Well, it's not the first time Loofahman has demonstrated his clear and rational thought process. See: the War on Christmas.

[Beerina]

I agree. I think "and all that stuff" was a horrible replacement for "american way" though. Couldn't the writers have come up with something a little better? Like a more global version of "american way" if that's what they were trying for. "All that stuff" really lacks imagination.

Actually, at the time, "and all that stuff" seemed like a clever way to emphasize "the America way". It wasn't until I read this that (says Bill) it was taken out for foreign audiences not hip to "the American way".

I wonder if that was true.

[Beerina]

Have no fear, Google brings us here! (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/30/opinion/ederik.php)


At one point the Fleischer cartoons even scrapped the whole "speeding bullet" business in favor of more weather-oriented metaphors: "Faster than a streak of lightning! More powerful than the pounding surf! Mightier than a roaring hurricane!"

These are massive power upgrades from bullet, locomotive, and tall building, which was really a Marvel comics-level of relatively wimpy herohood. Nah, Superman needs to be magnitudes above that.

[American]

They made him into a subversive little queerboy. It is only a movie, but the agenda is transparent. The results, predictable all-around.

So the circus continues.

[Regnad Kcin]

I thought Perry White's remark was intended as a joke, from the writers. The "the American way" is implicit.If I had to wager, I'd go with that, yes. "Truth, justice, and the American way" has become such a piece of pop culture, there's no need to fully say it; the writers know the audience will complete the thought. Furthermore, by making the phrase a toss-away, they call attention to it in a fun way. That's confident storytelling.

But he should have said the entire phrase! Preferably many times! The terrorists have won! Oh, the humanity!

What the Bill O'Reillys of the world don't seem to understand is that deeds are more reliable indicators for demonstrating a belief system than words. Want to promote "the American way?" Set an example. Live it.

[UserGoogol]

No, words are more important. Now say Merry Christmas, you commie.

[a_unique_person]

I'd thought that Superman was a closet Socialist, myself. Out there righting wrongs, saving people, self sacrificing, and called the "Man of Steel", just like Uncle Joe Stalin.

[American]

"Truth, justice, and the American way" has become such a piece of pop culture, there's no need to fully say it; the writers know the audience will complete the thought.

There was no need and they didn't want to fully say it, for no other reason than their underlying contempt for the original spirit of the character, which they only set out to insult and pervert in the first place with this faggoty re-make.

[UserGoogol]

aup: Actually, there's a standalone comic book which explores a world where Superman lands in Stalinist Russia instead of the United States. It's called Superman: Red Son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son) and it's supposed to be good although I have not read it.

[Mephisto]

There was no need and they didn't want to fully say it, for no other reason than their underlying contempt for the original spirit of the character, which they only set out to insult and pervert in the first place with this faggoty re-make.

Maybe they just thought international audiences would think it was a comedy by using the words, truth and justice along with "The American Way." The American way doesn't have much to do with either truth OR justice. We're spying on the American people, reading their email and delving into financial records, we're keeping secret prisons and kidnapping people off foreign streets, we're holding people without due process of law, we've invaded a sovereign country . . . all these things are a far cry from the America that existed when Superman was created.

[thaiboxerken]

The American way doesn't have much to do with either truth OR justice. We're spying on the American people...

Well, Supes did do a bit of peeping.

[Mephisto]

Well, Supes did do a bit of peeping.

Well, who could blame him? Flying past all those half-open windows at night. ;)

[mrfreeze]

aup: Actually, there's a standalone comic book which explores a world where Superman lands in Stalinist Russia instead of the United States. It's called Superman: Red Son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son) and it's supposed to be good although I have not read it.
I picked it up after seeing the new movie, and it is quite good. Even if you aren't particularly familiar with the universe (I'm not) you will have no problem getting into it.

[thaiboxerken]

Well, who could blame him? Flying past all those half-open windows at night. ;)

Oh yea, I'd probably do the same thing. With the n-ray vision of his, I'd probably spend most of my days doing that. Maybe that's why Bush does it, because he can.

[Mephisto]

Oh yea, I'd probably do the same thing. With the n-ray vision of his, I'd probably spend most of my days doing that. Maybe that's why Bush does it, because he can.

:) Why doesn't he just get it off the internet like everyone else? :)

Oh yeah, . . . Laura. ;)

[Skeptic]

If anything, does't the portrayal of the newspaper editor as contemptous of "The American Way" agree with little Bill's view of the press?

[Mephisto]

If anything, does't the portrayal of the newspaper editor as contemptous of "The American Way" agree with little Bill's view of the press?

. . . as well as little Bill's love of X-mas elves and the baby Jesus. ;)

[Regnad Kcin]

If anything, does't the portrayal of the newspaper editor as contemptous of "The American Way" agree with little Bill's view of the press?I didn't see that Perry White, the character, was contemptuous of the phrase, or the thought behind it.

[senorpogo]

Have no fear, Google brings us here! (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/30/opinion/ederik.php)

Thanks. I assumed it was out there, but was about to leave work and didn't have the time to search for it.

[senorpogo]

aup: Actually, there's a standalone comic book which explores a world where Superman lands in Stalinist Russia instead of the United States. It's called Superman: Red Son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son) and it's supposed to be good although I have not read it.

It's very good. And as someone else said, since it's a stand alone you don't really need in-depth knowledge of the character to appreciate it.

[Pardalis]

Superman is an archetype. In other words, he's an empty schell, a prototype that can fit whatever we project on him.

[Tailgater]

Maybe they just thought international audiences would think it was a comedy by using the words, truth and justice along with "The American Way." The American way doesn't have much to do with either truth OR justice. We're spying on the American people, reading their email and delving into financial records, we're keeping secret prisons and kidnapping people off foreign streets, we're holding people without due process of law, we've invaded a sovereign country . . . all these things are a far cry from the America that existed when Superman was created.

Actually it wasn't too far off. Japanese camps, monitoring communications and finances of nazi sympathizers, pow camps in other countries. You know, war stuff. The difference was you got your ass kicked for acting un-american back then. Let's not forget the timing of the writers making superman more "american" when hollywood was under attack for being commies. During the time between ww2 and the television show, comics were under serious attack for being too adult and straying from the patriotic themes of super heros fighting the axis since the war was over.

[Art Vandelay]

This reminds me of Dan Quail yelling at Murphy Brown for having a child out of wed-lock.Are you often reminded of fictional events?

[Regnad Kcin]

True, Mr. Quayle did not yell, but isn't that a bit of a distinction without a difference?

[gumboot]

Why didn't the movie producers finish the line? They're in it with the islamofashists!


You mean Hollywood has allied with the deadly (yet stunningly beautiful) para-military Islamic fundamentalist fashion model suicide-squad? (Zoolander is their holy doctrine).

The world is doomed. :(

-Andrew

[Art Vandelay]

True, Mr. Quayle did not yell, but isn't that a bit of a distinction without a difference?That's hardly the only inaccuracy.

[Regnad Kcin]

This reminds me of Dan Quail yelling at Murphy Brown for having a child out of wed-lock.Are you often reminded of fictional events?So, aside from the fact that Mr. Quayle didn't "yell," and the spelling of his name above, what other inaccuracies are there?

[Art Vandelay]

"Quail", "yelling", "at Murphy Brown", and "for having a child out of wed-lock" are all inaccurate. In fact, if one considers the word "remind" to be properly applied only to things that actually happened, then the entire sentence is wrong.

[Regnad Kcin]

Wel, Mr. Quayle certainly had something to say about the "Murphy Brown" television series storyline at the time.

It would seem SPQR's point was that one real person's revealing his discontent over a fictional, mass-market character's behavior today is quite similar to another real person's revealing his discontent over a fictional, mass-market character's behavior from some time ago. Seems clear enough to me.

Why the pedantry?

[Art Vandelay]

Ah, yes, pointing out that a claim is completely and utterly wrong is "pedantry". Even when that claim is part of an effort to use deception to discredit a point of view, we should just ignore it. Even when there's a comparison to a completely different situation.

[Regnad Kcin]

Fictional television character Murphy Brown exhibits behavior (by way of the show's writer(s)) that a prominent real member of the public (VP Dan Quayle) takes vocal issue with.

Fictional movie character Perry White exhibits behavior (by way of the screenwriters) that a prominent real member of the public (Bill O'Reilly) takes vocal issue with.

You'll forgive me if I don't see how the latter is a, to use your words, "completely different situation."

Also, who is using "deception to discredit a point of view?" And what is their deception?

[Art Vandelay]

Fictional television character Murphy Brown exhibits behavior (by way of the show's writer(s)) that a prominent real member of the public (VP Dan Quayle) takes vocal issue with.

Fictional movie character Perry White exhibits behavior (by way of the screenwriters) that a prominent real member of the public (Bill O'Reilly) takes vocal issue with.

You'll forgive me if I don't see how the latter is a, to use your words, "completely different situation."Merely listing similarities doesn't make things similar. And it certainly doesn't help that your "similarities" are inaccurate. Dan Quayle did base his criticism on Murphy Brown's behavior, he simply presented as an example of a wider problem. Perry White didn't really "exhibit behavior"; he just made an off-hand remark. Do you really see no difference between playing around with a catchphrase, and playing around with your child's life? There's also the issue of O'Reilly's accuracy.

Also, who is using "deception to discredit a point of view?" And what is their deception?The deception is rewriting what Quayle said. Instead of actually addressing his point, liberals simply create a strawman.

[Ausmerican]

Of course Billdo could have looked at it another way.

As kids growing up in Australia we always thought the line "Truth, Justice and the American Way" was kind of weird as it implied that the American way was something quite different and seperate from truth and justice.

Billdo could have looked at it as the writer and director saw it the same way and therefore changed the line but of course he couldn't have had a mindless rant then.

[Regnad Kcin]

Merely listing similarities doesn't make things similar.Oooo-kay.

They're quite similar enough for there to be a humorous little parallel. As I demonstrated.

And it certainly doesn't help that your "similarities" are inaccurate.My similarities are right on the money.

Wait, I know... Murphy's a girl and Perry's a boy. That's it, isn't it?

Dan Quayle did base his criticism on Murphy Brown's behavior, he simply presented as an example of a wider problem.That sentence makes no sense. Please clarify.

Perry White didn't really "exhibit behavior"; he just made an off-hand remark.Correct. He made an off-hand remark. Which a certain real-life pundit (and who knows how many others) considers revelatory vis-a-vis the dismissive attitudes of the three credited screenwriters (not to mention the producers) towards what the remark left out. Speaking, omitting, and communicating are all verbs. Which denote action. And behavior is an action.

Main Entry: behavior
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: manner
Synonyms: act, action, address, air, attitude, bag*, bearing, carriage, code, comportment, conduct, convention, course, dealings, decency, decorum, deed, delivery, demeanor, deportment, ethics, etiquette, expression, form, front, guise, habits, management, mien, mode, morals, nature, observance, performance, practice, presence, propriety, ritual, role, routine, savoir-faire, seemliness, social graces, speech, style, tact, talk, taste, tenue, tone, way, ways

Bolding mine.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/behavior

Do you really see no difference between playing around with a catchphrase, and playing around with your child's life?Murphy Brown was not "playing around with" a child's life. It was make-believe. Just like Superman.

There's also the issue of O'Reilly's accuracy....which, if you don't note the specific issue, is difficult to address.

The deception is rewriting what Quayle said. Instead of actually addressing his point, liberals simply create a strawman.On May 19, 1992, Quayle gave a speech to the Commonwealth Club of California on the subject of the Los Angeles riots. In this speech Quayle blamed the violence in L.A. on a decay of moral values and family structure in American society. In an aside, he specifically cited the fictional title character in the television program Murphy Brown as an example of how popular culture contributes to this "poverty of values", saying: "It doesn't help matters when primetime TV has Murphy Brown—a character who supposedly epitomizes today's intelligent, highly paid, professional woman—mocking the importance of fathers, by bearing a child alone, and calling it just another 'lifestyle choice.'"Bolding mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Quayle

Setting aside the question of whether Mr. Quayle was accurate in his criticism with regard to Murphy actually calling her single-woman pregnancy "just another lifestyle choice" (doubtful, I think), what about his words above did the big, bad liberals so misuse?

[SPQR]

Wow.

I really didn't plan for my little comment to cause such a a debate, but thanks for the backup, Regnad, just the same.

I don't even directly remember the event in question, I don't even think I was in school yet. I just remember my parents and I think it was I Love the 80s on VH1 talking about it.

:D

[Regnad Kcin]

Wow.

I really didn't plan for my little comment to cause such a a debate, but thanks for the backup, Regnad, just the same...Well who could've predicted it would?

And you're welcome.

[UserGoogol]

"Quail", "yelling", "at Murphy Brown", and "for having a child out of wed-lock" are all inaccurate. In fact, if one considers the word "remind" to be properly applied only to things that actually happened, then the entire sentence is wrong.

Dan Quayle, as part of a speech about the corrosion of "family values," said the following in a stern but not especially loud tone: "It doesn't help matters when primetime TV has Murphy Brown, a character who supposedly epitomizes today's intelligent, highly paid professional woman, mocking the importance of fathers by bearing a child alone and calling it just another lifestyle choice."

Yell has a sort of inofficial meaning of "to say something angrily." Just ask any fifteen year old being talked to by their parents and they'll agree. Quite loudly, in fact. In that sense, Quayle was yelling at Murphy Brown because he was making stern criticisms about her and the show which shares that name. He was angry that she was having a child out of wedlock, although this was admittingly part of a larger issue, and the fact that she was having a child out of wedlock was not his whole argument, but rather that it was being presented on the show as being "okay." Therefore, in a sense, he was yelling at Murphy Brown for having a child out of wedlock.

Of course, phrasing it that way is misleading, and the implication is that Quayle is even stupider than he is in reality, and thus it is a sort of ad hominem. Furthermore, the line between technically correct and incorrect is very thin, such as between from Al Gore saying "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." to saying Al Gore claimed to have invented the Internet. It is very easy to read into the comment about Dan Quayle that he was personally angry at a fictional chracter, and this is of course incorrect and rather insulting to him.