More garbage from Dobson

[Almo]

http://www.family.org/cforum/sherman/

I sent this mail to the organization:

Dog, Moo

Hello,

How do you explain the fact that I had a homosexual gerbil? One of our male gerbils would only go after the other males. They didn't like it very much. But I don't think gerbils have enough intelligence to make that kind of decision. I strongly suspect that there are genetic factors involved.

Look up how "lethal recessive" genes work. Even though a gene codes for something that prevents reproduction, that doesn't mean it will be removed from the genepool.

If your organization has trouble with homosexuality, that fine, as you're entitled to your opinions. But the dog, moo, and choice argument doesn't hold water.

Actually, I haven't submitted it yet. The firewall at work won't allow the submission. Well, I'll just copy/paste it from here tonight. :)

[Almo]

http://www.family.org/meetourpresident/presnewsltrs/a0040010.cfm

Ugh:

This "Fatherneed" is clearly what drives many fatherless kids (and remember, there are currently more than 24 million of them in the U.S. alone) to turn to sex, alcohol, crime and the other dangerous and deadly behaviors outlined in the statistics I quoted earlier. It is only by the grace of God that I was not swallowed up by these destructive forces.

[kurious_kathy]

http://www.family.org/meetourpresident/presnewsltrs/a0040010.cfm

Ugh:
I don't think it's garbage at all. They have done a lot of research on this issue of kids raised without dads at home ,and it does seem most of the USA's incarcerated population comes from that type of backround.

Heck I have single mom friends that have had troubles getting there teens to respect them and then the they are off getting high and ripping people off and behind bars before you know it. Something has to change because kids really do need their biological dads to take responsibility for them.

And I'm not going to put anyone down for being gay, but I do believe it is a sin just like so many other things out in the world today! Sorry Almo that Dobson's teachings upset you, but I think he is helping people in his ministry.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Heck I have single mom friends that have had troubles getting there teens to respect them and then the they are off getting high and ripping people off and behind bars before you know it. Something has to change because kids really do need their biological dads to take responsibility for them.
This offends me greatly. When I was a teenager I was always off getting high and ripping people off and my parents were (and are) happily married.

[kurious_kathy]

This offends me greatly. When I was a teenager I was always off getting high and ripping people off and my parents were (and are) happily married.
Do you parents have any belief or faith in God?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Do you parents have any belief or faith in God?
Oodles of it. Didn't keep me out of trouble. Hell, even the fact that I believed in the bugger didn't keep me out of trouble.

[kurious_kathy]

Oodles of it. Didn't keep me out of trouble. Hell, even the fact that I believed in the bugger didn't keep me out of trouble.
Ah, maybe you would have even got in worse trouble not believing in him. I found out from my own painful rebellion that God is faithful and just. He may not take away all the consequences from my past, but he still gives me the grace I need to survive and move forward in faith, hope, and love.

What absolutely blows my mind is that he is faithful even when we haven't been. The fact that he was able to turn my life around is all the proof I need.

[jimlintott]

I don't think it's garbage at all. They have done a lot of research on this issue of kids raised without dads at home ,and it does seem most of the USA's incarcerated population comes from that type of backround.
The majority of inmates are also christian. Although stable two parent families are best, a stable one parent family is better than an unstable two parent family.

Heck I have single mom friends that have had troubles getting there teens to respect them and then the they are off getting high and ripping people off and behind bars before you know it. Something has to change because kids really do need their biological dads to take responsibility for them.
First of all you have to earn respect, even from your own children. Ever think that maybe it's the single moms that are the problem. Any adult in their home can't wait to leave so the kids end up without a dad. Then people want to blame the person who isn't even there for the failure. Here's a news flash, kids from stable two parent homes screw up too.

And I'm not going to put anyone down for being gay, but I do believe it is a sin just like so many other things out in the world today! Sorry Almo that Dobson's teachings upset you, but I think he is helping people in his ministry.
If Dobson wants to 'help' people in his ministry that's fine. I'll even defend his right to do so. When he makes it political he crosses a line I consider sacred.

(I can't believe I answered on of her posts. What am I doing?)

[empeake]

The fact that he was able to turn my life around is all the proof I need.
Please, kurious_kathy, do take the credit you deserve. Even it was with the help of God, you decided to do something about your life, and did it. You were not a passive spectator, and should be proud of what you accomplished.

I think it was just you, by yourself, without any divine intervention, but that's just my opinion.

[Ladewig]

Sorry Almo that Dobson's teachings upset you, but I think he is helping people in his ministry.

One of the reasons I have little respect for Dobson is that he holds to the doctrine of entire sanctification - the belief that once one fully commits to a belief in Christ, one becomes without sin and even incapable of sin. Such a belief goes against John 1:8 which states, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

His opinions about homosexuality and how it should be outlawed also reduce his stature in my eyes.

[AWPrime]

Something has to change because kids really do need their biological dads to take responsibility for them.
I learned responsibility, common sense and respect from my mother.

I learned what not to do from my father.

[Jimbo07]

I think kids can benefit from having two parents present, if only to get two points of view, however...

They have done a lot of research on this issue of kids raised without dads at home ,and it does seem most of the USA's incarcerated population comes from that type of backround.

Care to cite stats? Even if I grant a majority, is it a significant majority? Was that the major factor in the crimes?


Heck I have single mom friends that have had troubles getting there teens to respect them and then the they are off getting high and ripping people off and behind bars before you know it. Something has to change because kids really do need their biological dads to take responsibility for them.

You'll have to tread carefully in the next few posts lest you become personally insulting. To date, I have yet to rip anyone off or be behind bars. My biological dad is a friendly guy, but an irresponsible parent.


And I'm not going to put anyone down for being gay, but I do believe it is a sin just like so many other things out in the world today!

I'm not going to put anyone down for being female, but...

:boggled:

[kedo1981]

So which god will keep teens outa trouble, Kathy?
Because there is much proof and statistics that prove it’s Hindu families that have the least divorce, lowest crime rate and most stable home life.
So why would that be, I mean, you as a Christian, surly can’t accept that maybe that funny elephant god has something over Jesus, or does he?
Why would a people, who most Christians believe worship demons, behave morally?

[kurious_kathy]

One of the reasons I have little respect for Dobson is that he holds to the doctrine of entire sanctification - the belief that once one fully commits to a belief in Christ, one becomes without sin and even incapable of sin. Such a belief goes against John 1:8 which states, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

His opinions about homosexuality and how it should be outlawed also reduce his stature in my eyes.
I've not heard him ever say people are incapable of sin. This to me is off as well. I don't sin like I use to before coming to faith, especially the bigger ones, but even complaining about things sometimes is a sin,and I certainly have a hard time not complaining when I don't like something sometimes. I still ask God to forgive me when I struggle with some of these things, call them character flaws but I have a promise to be made new someday.

The teachings on justification and sanctification are interesting to me. I still don't know exactly how Christ sanctifies us, but I do believe I am already justified by faith. Sanctification seems to me more difficult and perhaps it's our learning to be discipled well that makes this sanctification happen?

[kurious_kathy]

So which god will keep teens outa trouble, Kathy?
Because there is much proof and statistics that prove it’s Hindu families that have the least divorce, lowest crime rate and most stable home life.
So why would that be, I mean, you as a Christian, surly can’t accept that maybe that funny elephant god has something over Jesus, or does he?
Why would a people, who most Christians believe worship demons, behave morally?
Hi kedo, Im not going to go into knocking the hindu religion even though I myself believe it is a false religion. Their God and the Christian God don't seem to be the same do they? We believe a different doctrine than Hindu's do. And I have known many Indian people (most hindu) and know they are very family orientated. Also they love education and seem to be driven toward getting a college degree and making something of their lives. All these things are admirable qualities as far as maybe being more moral than some people that don't have any faith in God or belief in right and wrong. I just don't know why each generation seems to be harder and harder to reach even on a moral perspective?
And I think ultimately God will judge these dads that got women pregnant and then decided they wouldn't take any responsibility for them. I don't know the statistics in other countries, but I do know the US is way to high on the divorce rate or unwed mothers. If people are going to choose to have sex outside of marriage, there is consequences. Who else can turn it around. I quess women could be wiser and tell guys forget it, no marriage, no sex. What will that do? Do you think guys will respect women more for saying no, or will they become evil and go and rape the girl. This really is a moral issue.

[slingblade]

It's really amusing to watch Xtians try to figure out in one thread what's "wrong" with everyone, and decide it must be a lack of morals, and gee whiz, we'd be so much better off if everyone would just believe in and worship God....

...and then in another say things like "this is a Christian nation! Most Americans believe in God!"

....and never understand that both of these can't be true at the same time.

[kurious_kathy]

It's really amusing to watch Xtians try to figure out in one thread what's "wrong" with everyone, and decide it must be a lack of morals, and gee whiz, we'd be so much better off if everyone would just believe in and worship God....

...and then in another say things like "this is a Christian nation! Most Americans believe in God!"

....and never understand that both of these can't be true at the same time.
Hi sling, I try to remember to not say never, always, and everyone. There is only one time I will say everyone and that's when it come to finding and receiving truth. Everyone deserves to know the truth. Is that possible, probably not, but definitely worth striving for!

[Ryokan]

And I think ultimately God will judge these dads that got women pregnant and then decided they wouldn't take any responsibility for them. I don't know the statistics in other countries, but I do know the US is way to high on the divorce rate or unwed mothers. If people are going to choose to have sex outside of marriage, there is consequences. Who else can turn it around. I quess women could be wiser and tell guys forget it, no marriage, no sex. What will that do? Do you think guys will respect women more for saying no, or will they become evil and go and rape the girl. This really is a moral issue.

Strange that this happens in the most Christian of all nations, don't you think?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Ah, maybe you would have even got in worse trouble not believing in him.
Prolly not. I actually get in far less trouble as an atheist, if you don't count the goats.

[slingblade]

Hi sling, I try to remember to not say never, always, and everyone. There is only one time I will say everyone and that's when it come to finding and receiving truth. Everyone deserves to know the truth. Is that possible, probably not, but definitely worth striving for!

I believe I do know the truth. Nothing you've said has yet convinced me I'm wrong.

[kurious_kathy]

Strange that this happens in the most Christian of all nations, don't you think?
Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was. When our government was first set up it was set up on Godly principles. Now since the 1960's they have butchered everything. They changed the original text in American history books and they have let everything get pretty messed up.
Here's an article about ten things we Americans need to do to try to turn things around. http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=64
In fact this organization is one I am glad is going out and trying to educate people on how we may be able to get this nation turned back around to it's original purpose and direction. We've lost much of what this country was once so proudly built on. "America God Blessed Thee" if we can turn back to God then maybe he would heal lots of the problems overwelming our nation?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was. When our government was first set up it was set up on Godly principles. Now since the 1960's they have butchered everything. They changed the original text in American history books and they have let everything get pretty messed up.
Here's an article about ten things we Americans need to do to try to turn things around. http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=64
In fact this organization is one I am glad is going out and trying to educate people on how we may be able to get this nation turned back around to it's original purpose and direction. We've lost much of what this country was once so proudly built on. "America God Blessed Thee" if we can turn back to God then maybe he would heal lots of the problems overwelming our nation?
I, too, am appalled at the moral decay in this country. I think we need to go back to how things were in the early 1950s. We can start by taking 'under God' right out of the pledge.

[Ryokan]

Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was.

So, which nation on Earth is more Christian than the US, then? Besides the Vatican, I mean.

[nelsondogg]

Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was. When our government was first set up it was set up on Godly principles...

Yeah, we need to go back to having black people be slaves, and not letting women vote, and go and shoot dead the rest of the Native Americans and take their casinos too. Ahh, the good 'ol days.

[empeake]

Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was. When our government was first set up it was set up on Godly principles.
I might be wrong here, but:

Weren't many (if not most) of the Founding Fathers Deists, opposed to Christianity and any other form of religion?

Isn't true that the Constitution of the United States doesn't mention Jesus Christ, Christianity, the Bible, or God?

Didn't Abraham Lincoln say, "The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion"?

Didn't George Washington say, "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches"?

Didn't James Madison say, "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects"?

Yes kurious_kathy, the USA is not the nation it once was. The legacy of the Founding Fathers has been corrupted with religion.

[chillzero]

And I think ultimately God will judge these dads that got women pregnant and then decided they wouldn't take any responsibility for them. I don't know the statistics in other countries, but I do know the US is way to high on the divorce rate or unwed mothers. If people are going to choose to have sex outside of marriage, there is consequences. Who else can turn it around. I quess women could be wiser and tell guys forget it, no marriage, no sex. What will that do? Do you think guys will respect women more for saying no, or will they become evil and go and rape the girl. This really is a moral issue.

Women aren't the only people responsible in a relationship for whether sex occurs or not, you know. And men aren't the only people who can take the decision that marriage isn't required beforehand.

Nor is it true that should a man be denied sex, he will instantly and automatically become a sex-craved maniac, incapable of making any rational decison and must have sex at any cost. Believe it or not, some men are willing to wait until their chosen partner is ready to take that step. Most men who are not prepared to wait will go find someone else: not break down into some evil rapist.

Sex outside marriage is not an issue to anyone other than the couple. Children outside marriage is a whole other issue, but still not really a moral one - more one of responsibility.

Christians need to understand that sex is not always the prime motiviation in people for every single decision that is made, or action that is taken.

[Ladewig]

Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was. When our government was first set up it was set up on Godly principles.


Godly principle such as "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"?

Godly prinicples such as the religious folks in Massachusetts telling Roger Williams (who belonged to a different denomination of Christianity) either follow our religious beliefs or face prison and banishment?

Godly principles like slavery and putting men above women?



___________________
From KK's link
The second reversal must center on the restoration of the personal benefits derived from living by Godly principles. For example, when the Courts ruled that students might not use the Ten Commandments, nor study the Scriptures, nor learn about sexual abstinence, etc.,

The U.S. Supreme Court has never ruled that students must not learn of sexual abstinence.
Kathy, you would do well to not believe everything you read on the internet. People claiming to be religious leaders sometimes lie. Check their facts against other sources.

[Ipecac]

Now since the 1960's they have butchered everything. They changed the original text in American history books and they have let everything get pretty messed up.

Yeah, I hated it when they did that. I preferred it when my history book had only the original text. Of course, the "original text" didn't cover any history after 1787 so I always wondered what happened since then. But doggone it, the original text was just so original.

[KillerBob]

Ah, maybe you would have even got in worse trouble not believing in him. I found out from my own painful rebellion that God is faithful and just. He may not take away all the consequences from my past, but he still gives me the grace I need to survive and move forward in faith, hope, and love.


So if MDC's parents weren't believers, it would have been the reason MDC was getting into trouble. Since they were believers, then their belief is the only thing that kept him from ending up dead or something. Nice little win-win scenario you set up there.


Since I love anecdotes sooooo much:
I have 2 sisters and 1 brother, the youngest of which is nearly thirteen years older than me. Our parents divorced when I was about 7, so they had a father figure in the home until their 20's, but obviously I didn't. Both of my parents were, and still are, very religious.

Fast forward a quarter of a century or so. My sisters and I all have college degrees, good careers, and strong family lives. I'm an atheist and both of my sisters are ambivalent to religion.

My brother is still extremely religious. He's told me all about the Focus on the Family crowd a number of times and how they have a lot of great advice that could help me with my family life. His church-going habits, however, are often limited because he spends almost as much time in jail as he does outside of it. He's also left behind a trail of broken marriages and nieces and nephews that I barely know.

Yeah, it's anecdotal, but that seems to be your favorite type of evidence, so please explain the scenario above.



Here's a hint: personal responsibility vs. god - which has a better track record?

[pchams]

I don't think it's garbage at all. They have done a lot of research on this issue of kids raised without dads at home ,and it does seem most of the USA's incarcerated population comes from that type of backround.

Heck I have single mom friends that have had troubles getting there teens to respect them and then the they are off getting high and ripping people off and behind bars before you know it.

.

Utter nonsense.
It's the parent(s), whether one or two who have failed the child.
I am a single parent. My teenage daughter is fine.
I bothered to spend time with her, and taught her to think critically.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Utter nonsense.
It's the parent(s), whether one or two who have failed the child.
I am a single parent. My teenage daughter is fine.
I bothered to spend time with her, and taught her to think critically.
Yeah, but if she had two parents, like she's supposed to, she would have cured cancer by now.

[kurious_kathy]

[QUOTE=KillerBob;1783798]Yeah, it's anecdotal, but that seems to be your favorite type of evidence, so please explain the scenario above.[QUOTE]

I can't explain all of it, but God can. I'm sure your brother has been under some extreme spiritual warfare that maybe as a believer he wasn't aware of.

I really don't know why non-believers don't struggle the way believers do sometimes. I think because maybe most people are are not a threat to the evil one. The biggest target of spirtual warfare seems to be how Satan can destroy the family unit. I know this one because I myself was almost divorced twice after a ten year struggle in my marriage. It's only because of Jesus that my marriage is back together.

Yes I messed up, but God forgave me and helped me mend it as much as possible. So see God will help restore the lost years the locusts have eaten, if we let him. As far as your brother maybe he just never learned to surrender his will to Christ. Is he a follower of Christ? Being religious and knowing Jesus seems to be two totally different things in my opinion.

Here's an article on Who Is Jesus?... http://www.atstracts.org/readarticle.php?id=47

[Jimbo07]

I can't explain all of it, but God can. I'm sure your brother has been under some extreme spiritual warfare that maybe as a believer he wasn't aware of.

I really don't know why non-believers don't struggle the way believers do sometimes.

That's about all of it, summed up right there.

(emphasis: mine)

[Marquis de Carabas]

We don't struggle because Satan gives us lots of money, power, fast cars, and faster women (or men) in exchange for our souls, of course.

[kurious_kathy]

We don't struggle because Satan gives us lots of money, power, fast cars, and faster women (or men) in exchange for our souls, of course.
And when your life is over what will you think, was it worth it? I can just picture it now Marquis your sitting in hell cringing and wishing you would have listened when God was trying to reach you. The problem then is it will surely be too late to repent!

The verse "What does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul" comes to mind. Think about it, seriously!!

In the end what did you really gain? A little temporary pleasure in life? No thanks, I was on that road and it wasn't worth it. Why live in darkness when the light is so much better?

[Marquis de Carabas]

And when your life is over what will you think, was it worth it?
The verse "what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul" comes to mind.
The response "Um, the world, obviously. Weren't you listening to what you said?" comes to mind.

In the end what did you really gain? A little temporary pleasure in life? No thanks, I was on that road and it wasn't worth it.
Wait. Wait wait wait. You always tell us how dreadful and horrible your life was before Jebus filled you with his Holy Spit. Now you're saying you were experiencing pleasure at the time? Which is it?

Edit
I can just picture it now Marquis your sitting in hell cringing and wishing you would have listened when God was trying to reach you. The problem then is it will surely be too late to repent!
I really hope you're enjoying that picture in your head. Am I naked?

[I less than three logic]

And when your life is over what will you think, was it worth it?
The verse "what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul" comes to mind.

In the end what did you really gain? A little temporary pleasure in life? No thanks, I was on that road and it wasn't worth it.
Detecting sarcasm isn't one of your stronger skills, is it? :)

[kurious_kathy]

The response "Um, the world, obviously. Weren't you listening to what you said?" comes to mind.


Wait. Wait wait wait. You always tell us how dreadful and horrible your life was before Jebus filled you with his Holy Spit. Now you're saying you were experiencing pleasure at the time? Which is it?

Oh I was definately out to do in my way. My way was wrong and only led me down the road to lose everything, including almost my life.

The thing is I found out the reason for my struggle was I wasn't seeing it the right way. I could have avoided God's wrath and a lot of pain in my life had I just seen that seeking pleasure and worldy gain was the wrong thing.

What motivates a man to seek pleasure rather than God?
The song by Santana comes to mind when I look back at my past. "You've got to change your evil ways, baby."

[Marquis de Carabas]

Oh I was definately out to do in my way. My way was wrong and only led me down the road to lose everythin, including almost my life.

The thing is I found out the reason for my struggle was I wasn't seeing it the right way. I could have avoided God's wrath and a lot of pain in my life had I just seen that seeking pleasure and worldy gain was the wrong thing.

What motivates a man to seek pleasure rather than God? The song by Santana comes to mind when I look back at my past. "Youv'e got to change your evil ways, baby."
Did you ever consider renegotiating your contract with Satan? I know he's a hard sell, but after I helped him deconvert 100 Christians in the 03-04 season alone, he offered me a new incentive-based contract, with a huge upfront signing bonus.

Maybe you should have gotten a better agent.

[Genesius]

Did you ever consider renegotiating your contract with Satan? I know he's a hard sell, but after I helped him deconvert 100 Christians in the 03-04 season alone, he offered me a new incentive-based contract, with a huge upfront signing bonus.

Maybe you should have gotten a better agent.

:dl:

Now I'll have this picture in my head all day: your avatar floating there, munching popcorn, and telling Christians "Nah, Satan's just got bad PR. C'mon over to the fun side, and never suffer guilt pangs again!"

[kurious_kathy]

Did you ever consider renegotiating your contract with Satan? I know he's a hard sell, but after I helped him deconvert 100 Christians in the 03-04 season alone, he offered me a new incentive-based contract, with a huge upfront signing bonus.

Maybe you should have gotten a better agent.

Not a chance. Satan tried to bribe me too, but unlike you I told him the Lord rebuke you. Get lost Satan your lies stink! Oh and I'm sure if I get my new lyrics out in the world of music they will only be those that edify and build up the body of Christ. All for the glory of God!

[slingblade]

But did you get the toaster oven?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Not a chance. Satan tried to bribe me too, but unlike you I told him the Lord rebuke you. Get lost Satan your lies stink! Oh and I'm sure if I get my new lyrics out in the world of music they will only be those that edify and build up the body of Christ. All for the glory of God!
Why do you have to build up the body of Christ? I figure a carpenter would be pretty well put-together already, if you know what I mean. Big strong muscles, all oiled-up and flexed.

That's one of the great things about working for Satan; he has his own Bowflex.

[kurious_kathy]

That's one of the great things about working for Satan; he has his own Bowflex.

Your just taking the easy road in life. The problem is it will never amount to anything that lasts. I like to try to focus on things that have an eternal perspective. I believe we Christians call it sowing to the spirit rather than feeding the flesh.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Your just taking the easy road in life. The problem is it will never amount to anything that lasts. I like to try to focus on things that have an eternal perspective. I believe we Christians call it sowing to the spirit rather than feeding the flesh.
OK, so strength training's not for you. Satan's got an aerobics program, too, you know. And one hell of a sauna.

[Genesius]

Hey, MdeC, here's a question for you: How much fertilizer would we have to dump on kathy before she grows a sense of humor and stops taking posts like your seriously?

[kurious_kathy]

Hey, MdeC, here's a question for you: How much fertilizer would we have to dump on kathy before she grows a sense of humor and stops taking posts like your seriously?
I have a sense of humor, but some of his posts really aren't funny!

anyway back to OP about Dobson, what do you think of this tract he wrote about raising boys?... http://shop2.gospelcom.net/epages/atsdirect.storefront/44c10edc0127155c271d45579e7c0659/Product/View/31184

[Wavicle]

I really don't know why non-believers don't struggle the way believers do sometimes. I think because maybe most people are are not a threat to the evil one. The biggest target of spirtual warfare seems to be how Satan can destroy the family unit. I know this one because I myself was almost divorced twice after a ten year struggle in my marriage. It's only because of Jesus that my marriage is back together.


You know this is one of those things that has often p*ssed me off with so-called Christians. Somehow Satan is interferring in your life such that the bad things you do are somehow partially absolved because it wasn't entirely your fault. Horse puckey. The fact that believers seem to struggle more than non-believers (sometimes) looks to me like the believers are using faith as a crutch to make them feel better about their character flaws. Somehow *they* are not responsible, it's mostly that prince of darkness guy. Yeah, whatever. I'm tired of the system of guilt. The guilt of being a bad spouse is magically collected at church (it wasn't all yours anyway - Satan was partially or mostly responsible) and locked up in their vault waiting to repay you with interest should the need arise.

It's easy to call yourself a Christian. It's hard to follow Christ's example. How about less talking about Satan and more trying to follow the example that He left?

I have a favorite story on this: I attended a church "Baptism/BBQ" where hundreds of people gather on a lakeside beach to listen to live music, watch all the newly committed followers of Christ take the plunge, and eat lots of food together. While walking from my car to the beach I happen across a terrified lost little girl. Who was the only one to stop and make sure she doesn't become a statistic? Me - the one who isn't baptised. She's too scared to walk with me to the stage (good for her!) so I try to get one of these saved individuals to take her name so an announcement could be made. Do any of them stop to help? Oh heaven forbid! They might miss their favorite band performing. Besides, they were already saved (or about to be so), they don't NEED to do anything. Probably nothing would have happened to her had I not stopped. Maybe God had already told all of them this, I don't know. I stuck with her until her father found us.

The crowning moment I think was when one of the church members who had passed us asked me later if the little girl had found her parents. Oh that was rich. Good Christians - assured of entry to heaven in the hereafter - in desperate need of a dose of Christian morality.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I have a sense of humor, but some of his posts really aren't funny!
They would be funny if you gave your heart to Satan, though. Jesus obscures humour, diverting us from the path of mirth that Satan has set out for us. It is not his will that any should be sombre, but that all should have eternal chuckles. Why do you turn your back on the only one who can truly make you laugh?

anyway back to OP about Dobson, what do you think of this tract he wrote about raising boys?... http://shop2.gospelcom.net/epages/atsdirect.storefront/44c10edc0127155c271d45579e7c0659/Product/View/31184
Besides the open bestiality on the cover, not much.

[Terry]

yes, back to the OP about Dobson. It seems likely to me that the most successful "ex-gays" were probably bisexual to start with. And there isn't that great a record of success with "treatment" anyway. Fortunately I don't want to change, so I'm not worried.

[Genesius]

I have a sense of humor, but some of his posts really aren't funny!

anyway back to OP about Dobson, what do you think of this tract he wrote about raising boys?... http://shop2.gospelcom.net/epages/atsdirect.storefront/44c10edc0127155c271d45579e7c0659/Product/View/31184
I think his tract is a load of dingoes kidneys. For example:


The Ultimate Answer
Meaning in life comes only by answering the eternal questions listed above, and they are adequately addressed only in the Christian faith. No other religion can tell us who we are, how we got here, and where we are going after death. And no other belief system teaches that we are known and loved individually by the God of the universe and by His only Son, Jesus Christ.

Every belief system claims to "tell us who we are, how we got here, and where we are going after death." If Dobson wants us to accept Christianity as different, he'd better trot out some proof.

Timing is critical. Researcher George Barna confirms what we have known—that it becomes progressively more difficult to influence children spiritually as they grow older. If a person does not accept Jesus Christ as Savior before the age of fourteen, the likelihood of ever doing so is slim.
I'll agree with this. So kathy, since most (if not all) of the non-believers on the board are over 14, and Dobson says there's practically no chance of us ever accepting Jesus, why don't you quit preaching at us and let us live our lives in peace?

[kmortis]

Oh, c'mon Terry, don't you want to experience the "Love of Jesus"? I understand that he's good with "wood".

[empeake]

Timing is critical. Researcher George Barna confirms what we have known—that it becomes progressively more difficult to influence children spiritually as they grow older. If a person does not accept Jesus Christ as Savior before the age of fourteen, the likelihood of ever doing so is slim.
Yes! Get them while they are young! Condition them, instill fear, promise them happiness and everything they want. Do whatever is necessary, for once they start to reason, all hope of believing the delusion is gone.

[roger]

OK, so strength training's not for you. Satan's got an aerobics program, too, you know. And one hell of a sauna.I find your proposals interesting, sir. I currently belong to the church of Java, and except for the runs to the bathroom, I am satisfied. But where does your dark Lord stand on the subject of, oh *looks down bashfully, twists toe in sand* goat fisting?

[Marquis de Carabas]

I find your proposals interesting, sir. I currently belong to the church of Java, and except for the runs to the bathroom, I am satisfied. But where does your dark Lord stand on the subject of, oh *looks down bashfully, twists toe in sand* goat fisting?
Would I be working for him if he disapproved?

[Terry]

Oh, c'mon Terry, don't you want to experience the "Love of Jesus"? I understand that he's good with "wood".

Well, there's this (http://www.sfbg.com/37/14/news_holy_orgasm.html)... (don't follow the link if you are easily offended, but it's only a news story)

[jimlintott]

I really don't know why non-believers don't struggle the way believers do sometimes. I think because maybe most people are are not a threat to the evil one. The biggest target of spirtual warfare seems to be how Satan can destroy the family unit. I know this one because I myself was almost divorced twice after a ten year struggle in my marriage. It's only because of Jesus that my marriage is back together.


It took a while but I think I get it. Satan's biggest threat are the believers, so they are most apt to be victims of his work. So the best way to avoid evil and lead an evil free life would be to not believe in god. It seems that god is Satan's trick.

Who knew that we atheists had made the right choice all along?

[Katana]

Hi sling, I try to remember to not say never, always, and everyone. There is only one time I will say everyone and that's when it come to finding and receiving truth. Everyone deserves to know the truth. Is that possible, probably not, but definitely worth striving for!


You're not interested in the truth, kk. In your faith, you have suspended reason and logic in exchange for embracing a blind belief unsupported by reality. No matter what anyone says to your fallacious ramblings, you don't have to think or provide evidence, all you need to say is you believe it to be the case, and that's sufficient. But, then again, your God felt that eating from the Tree of Knowledge was a punishable act. Hmmm. Coincidence?

Because Ayn Rand puts it even more eloquently, I'll include her words:

"The good, say the mystics of spirit, is God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive- a definition that invalidates man's consciousness and nullifies his concepts of existence...Man's mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God... Man's standard of value, say the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man's power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith....The purpose of man's life...is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question."

Amen.

Oh, yeah, in what manner is your God just, KK?

[Katana]

Oh, yeah. Here's one more for you, KK:

To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer.

[KillerBob]

I can't explain all of it, but God can. I'm sure your brother has been under some extreme spiritual warfare that maybe as a believer he wasn't aware of.

I really don't know why non-believers don't struggle the way believers do sometimes. I think because maybe most people are are not a threat to the evil one. The biggest target of spirtual warfare seems to be how Satan can destroy the family unit. I know this one because I myself was almost divorced twice after a ten year struggle in my marriage. It's only because of Jesus that my marriage is back together.

That’s a bit arrogant and insulting. Non-believers struggle with life the same as anyone else. Mine is only one example. The point is that people struggle with life, whether they believe in a deity or not.

Some christians are good people, others aren’t. Some atheists are good people, others aren’t. Some Hindus are good people, others aren’t. Some Raelians aren’t very good people, just like the rest of them.

So if we’re all struggling in life across the board, regardless of spiritual beliefs, isn’t it more likely that how “good” a person turns out to be depends a lot more on their environment and their choices than on the supposed influence of any gods or their red-horned antagonists?

The only difference seems to be that you want to give undue credit to that deity. If I turn my life around, I’m going to give myself the credit for that turnaround, quite deservedly.

My experience has shown me that a god is the least useful explanation of anything.

Yes I messed up, but God forgave me and helped me mend it as much as possible. So see God will help restore the lost years the locusts have eaten, if we let him. As far as your brother maybe he just never learned to surrender his will to Christ. Is he a follower of Christ? Being religious and knowing Jesus seems to be two totally different things in my opinion.

Here's an article on Who Is Jesus?... http://www.atstracts.org/readarticle.php?id=47


We were raised as Southern Baptists………….in Texas, so yeah, we know all about Jesus and “giving our lives” to him.

As far as “knowing” Christ, I’m sorry, but it’s just rhetoric to say that we can “know” someone who’s been dead for two thousand years. Especially when the scant details we have of that person’s life were written from a fan’s point of view.

[KillerBob]

BTW Kathy, I’ll try to leave the open insults about your preaching to others who are better at it than I am. But if you think that I’ve opened some door here for you to “show me the glory of Jesus”, please save yourself the time.

As I’ve mentioned, I grew up attending a hardcore, Jesus-lovin’ Southern Baptist Church, so there aren’t too many arguments I haven’t heard before. They all failed to impress.

[Dr Adequate]

Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was. When our government was first set up it was set up on Godly principles. The Treaty of Tripoli, 1797. Signed by President John Adams and ratified by Congress.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; … no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[hgc]

The Treaty of Tripoli, 1797....No! Back when it was founded, when Jesus signed the Declaration of Independence.

[Foster Zygote]

Well, there's this (http://www.sfbg.com/37/14/news_holy_orgasm.html)... (don't follow the link if you are easily offended, but it's only a news story)

I'M GREATLY OFFENDED! ...that there were no pictures.

Steven

[Foster Zygote]

If I turn my life around, I’m going to give myself the credit for that turnaround, quite deservedly.

I agree, but I would add others to the list. However, your point remains valid. Real people have far more impact on our lives than any imaginary gods and monsters. Those things KK credits to Jesus ultimately came from within herself.

Steven

[Terry]

Google will find you them easily enough.

[Foster Zygote]

Ya know this whole issue of the USA being a Christian Nation today really bothers me because it doesn't appear to be the nation it once was. When our government was first set up it was set up on Godly principles. Now since the 1960's they have butchered everything. They changed the original text in American history books and they have let everything get pretty messed up.

Most of the founding fathers were actually deists. You should look it up because many traditional Cristians regarded their views as heretical. And as for your lamentation about "changing the original text" you should really look into the history of the Bible. You may be interested to know that the earliest available Greek texts make little or no mention of the divinity of Jesus, and that the story of The Woman Taken In Adultery was added later, as were the last twelve verses of Mark. The Bible was changed literally hundreds of thousands of times before the advent of movable type and it didn't end there either.

Steven

[Foster Zygote]

As for the OP: James Dobson is bats**t insane. Any search engine will link his name to innumerable ridiculous statements. He's the guy who said the Tellytubbies were designed to push the homosexual "agenda" on pre-schoolers. (FYI, I thought it was to give twenty-somethings something to watch while stoned) He's going to cause so much psychological damage to impressionable young gay people that it boggles my mind. These people could be happy if they were accepted as they are but twisted kinks like Dobson and co. will convince many of them to feel a lifetime (or at least until their heads snap up and the word "Bulls**t!" leaves their lips) of self loathing. Dobson may not utter the vile words of Fred Phelps but his message is the same and even more damaging because of his air of "concern". Does Dobson decry genuinely hurtful human behavior this much? He seems bent that the real danger is boys who want to kiss boys and girls who want to kiss girls.

Steven

[Ladewig]

As for the OP: James Dobson is bats**t insane. Any search engine will link his name to innumerable ridiculous statements. He's the guy who said the Tellytubbies were designed to push the homosexual "agenda" on pre-schoolers. (FYI, I thought it was to give twenty-somethings something to watch while stoned)

Are you sure you are not confusing him with Jerry Falwell? Dobson is "Focus on the Family"


Actually, it was an editor in Falwell's newsletter that spotted what he though was a homosexual agenda in the Teletubbies' program.

[Foster Zygote]

Are you sure you are not confusing him with Jerry Falwell? Dobson is "Focus on the Family"


Actually, it was an editor in Falwell's newsletter that spotted what he though was a homosexual agenda in the Teletubbies' program.

Ah,yes. You're right. But even with that charge redirected away from Dobson I still stand by everything else in the above post.

Steven

[Dr Adequate]

Well, there's this (http://www.sfbg.com/37/14/news_holy_orgasm.html)... (don't follow the link if you are easily offended, but it's only a news story) Heh ...

Realizing he'd found an unusual niche ...

[Katana]

http://www.divine-interventions.com/jackhammer.html

It really exists. Holy (and I mean holy) crap!

[Ausmerican]

http://www.divine-interventions.com/jackhammer.html

It really exists. Holy (and I mean holy) crap!
Maybe thats what people are referring to when they say they were filled with the love of Jesus.

[Kopji]

A major reason that Republicans won the election decisively (retaining not only the presidency but also increasing their numbers in both the House and the Senate) was that their stands on Biblical and moral issues more closely coincided with those of the voters. In fact, polls before the election indicated that the best predictor of how an individual would vote was frequency of church attendance. As Washington Post writer Thomas Edsall noted: “Pollsters are finding that one of the best ways to discover whether a voter holds liberal or conservative value stands is to ask: How often do you go to church? Those who go often tend to be Republican, those who go rarely or not at all tend to be Democratic.” Election 2004 reinforced these findings.

In this election, 61% of Bush’s vote came from people from all faiths who attend services weekly (a group comprising 41% of the electorate); conversely, 62% of Kerry’s vote came from people who never attend worship (accounting for 14% of the electorate). In fact, many groups that voted more Republican in this election than in previous ones did so largely because of Republican stands on Biblical and moral issues.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=114

This explains a lot.

[Almo]

(I can't believe I answered on of her posts. What am I doing?)

I dunno, man. :confused:

[Katana]

This explains a lot.

Yep. It's because all of the sinners voted for Kerry that he wasn't elected. Bush was punishment.

[Almo]

From the OP, I sent this to Focus on the Family:

Dog, Moo

Hello,

How do you explain the fact that I had a homosexual gerbil? One of our male gerbils would only go after the other males. They didn't like it very much. But I don't think gerbils have enough intelligence to make that kind of decision. I strongly suspect that there are genetic factors involved.

Look up how "lethal recessive" genes work. Even though a gene codes for something that prevents reproduction, that doesn't mean it will be removed from the genepool.

If your organization has trouble with homosexuality, that fine, as you're entitled to your opinions. But the dog, moo, and choice argument doesn't hold water.

Got the following response. Haven't felt like actually reading it yet, cause I figure it will just make me angry. Anyway, here it is:

Thank you for writing to Focus on the Family. We value your interest in our ministry, and I consider it a privilege to reply on behalf of our staff.

We appreciate your taking the time to share about your “gay” gerbil. In response to your comments about the roots of homosexuality in humans, it might be helpful to clarify that we have never claimed that homosexuality -- or same-sex attraction -- is “chosen.” However, many gays do choose to *willingly participate in* homosexual activity.

This being said, the fact remains that there is no valid scientific evidence to indicate that homosexuality is inherited, despite repeated efforts to find a so-called “gay gene” or other indicators of genetic transmission (see http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp). Dr. James Dobson -- founder and Chairman of Focus -- believes there is a much more verifiable explanation than genetics for the causation of same-sex attraction. It is his view that homosexuality is a disorder that results most commonly from early developmental problems. He feels this is the case despite the denials of professional organizations such as the American Psychiatric Association. A variety of environmental factors play a role in *some* individuals, including one or more of the following: 1) serious family dysfunction that wounds and damages the child (it should be noted that we realize many homosexuals were raised in loving families); 2) early sexual abuse; 3) the influence of and/or sexual exploitation by an older homosexual during a critical period of adolescence; 4) homosexual experimentation, such as mutual masturbatory activity in boys in early adolescence; and 5) peer rejection or labeling. There is, of course, a great deal of variance in how these and other forces interplay in individual circumstances.

Perhaps it’s worth adding a theological note at this juncture. From the Christian perspective, it is a mistake to assume that because an action, condition, or mode of behavior has a physical or biological basis, it cannot therefore be considered a sin or the consequence of sin. Those who jump to such conclusions fail to understand that we live in a fallen, sin-sick world -- that creation has been off kilter ever since Adam and Eve made the fatal decision to eat the forbidden fruit. Because of their choice, the world now exists in an *abnormal* state. Therefore, even if science *could* demonstrate that there is a genetic basis for homosexual behavior, this would not necessarily prove that homosexuality is a good thing.

This last thought leads us to conclude that one must be extremely careful about drawing moral and ethical conclusions from the study of nature -- e.g., from the behavioral patterns of animals. Indeed, common sense itself suggests that it is potentially disastrous for human beings to base their actions and moral standards on the habits of animals. After all, we know that some creatures kill their consorts after mating and eat their own young.

Again, thanks for taking a moment to contact us. We trust this response is helpful in clearing up any confusion you may have had regarding our viewpoint on this matter. May all the richness of God’s grace rest upon you in the days ahead.

Joseph McCrae
Focus on the Family

P.S. You may be interested in reading about the ex-gay penguins in Manhattan ’s Central Park Zoo at the following Web site: http://www.family.org/cforum/sherman/shermansays/A0041265.cfm.