PDA

View Full Version : Social Revolution Christianity and Communism...


Malachi151
27th May 2003, 06:58 PM
I see many parallels between Christianity and Communism, Jesus and Marx.

When you look at it Jesus, if there was such a person, he was a social revolutionary. I contend that the Biblical Jesus at least represented a movement and a group of people, if not an actual individual.

So, what was the Christian movement initially?

It was one of the first well documented large scale socialist style social revolutions.

"Jesus" was anti-establishment and the leader of social revolution, in this case in a religious context. The real message though is one of equality of the individual, at least within his society, if not also on a larger scale. It was a reaction to class struggle and imperialism, just as Marxism was. Hence, Jesus was the Marx of his day, and Marx was the Jesus of his day.

Now, what happened to the teachings of "Jesus"?

They became institutionalized by the establishment because the establishment saw that the ideas held power with the masses, and thus in order to wield that power and negate its oppositional effect they adopted the name of the Religion.

At this point the social movement was stifled. Now, the ideas of social revolution become institutionalized and in turn were used for social oppression.

This is representative of Marxism.

This is all a process of Social Darwinism.

Its a product of the process of social evolution and the way that society evolves to maintain structure.

A society is like an organism itself, and also like an environment. An environment evolved as do the members of the environment. Environments evolved towards self sustainability. Elements within an environment that are destructive to the environment are selected out through the evolutionary process, so that sustainable systems emerge.

The same is true of society. Social Revolution is selected against by the process of Social Darwinism.

This is why what happened to Christianity and Marxism happened.

The Russians and Chinese, etc institutionalized Marxism in the same way that Rome institutionalized Christianity, with the same effects.

They are both the same things, the beginnings of social revolution that promises equality, but equality is selected again by social forces. This leads to revolutionary institutionalization, whereby revolutionary ideas become a part of the establishment's way to enforce disparity, which is the natural stabilizing condition of human society.

Gem
27th May 2003, 08:27 PM
Interesting comparison.

But there are differences too. Jesus (according to the bible at least) asked for peace, but Marx asked for revolution.

There will always be people against the current government in their lands. There might be a bunch of anarchist, or people from the opposite party who wnats to gain power. Even in a democracy, except that in a democracy change can come without blood. The US is a good example.

And yes, people in power have often used religion and other means to "subdue" the masses. But Marx wasn't instutionized, it was demonized. Whenever you hear communist, leftist, socialist, liberal, people start thinking Stalin, Mao, North Korea, Cuba. Communist in these country was as representative to communist as Saddam was representative to democracy. Remember? He got 100% of the votes! It is important to understand that dictators NEVER say they are despots/tyrants/dictators. They always romantice, with "king" or Council Premier or whatever. Hey, Arafat is a President, ya know.:rolleyes:

Oh, and was it Marx that said that religion is the opium of the masses? or did he just paraphrase or agree with it?

Gem

Tony
27th May 2003, 08:36 PM
Yes, Jesus was a bedwetting communist and a fanatic. I have thought this for a long time.

Malachi151
27th May 2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Gem
Interesting comparison.

But there are differences too. Jesus (according to the bible at least) asked for peace, but Marx asked for revolution.

There will always be people against the current government in their lands. There might be a bunch of anarchist, or people from the opposite party who wnats to gain power. Even in a democracy, except that in a democracy change can come without blood. The US is a good example.

And yes, people in power have often used religion and other means to "subdue" the masses. But Marx wasn't instutionized, it was demonized. Whenever you hear communist, leftist, socialist, liberal, people start thinking Stalin, Mao, North Korea, Cuba. Communist in these country was as representative to communist as Saddam was representative to democracy. Remember? He got 100% of the votes! It is important to understand that dictators NEVER say they are despots/tyrants/dictators. They always romantice, with "king" or Council Premier or whatever. Hey, Arafat is a President, ya know.:rolleyes:

Oh, and was it Marx that said that religion is the opium of the masses? or did he just paraphrase or agree with it?

Gem

Precisely, and my point is that Christinaity is as representative of Jesus' teachings as Stalinism is of Marxism.

Marx was institutionalized, it was institutionalized by Russia and China.

Not that I'm any kind of Jesus follower or care anything about him in any way. Its just that in studying Christianity years ago I did a lot of research into the history of the times, as well as extra Biblical writings, such as the non-canon gospels, etc.

Since that time, now having studied Marxism, those facts and ideas have new meaning to me.

Now, I see the pattern of social revoltuion throughout history.

Now, revistiving the movement Jesus was invovled in his time, that was a movement against the oppression of the establishment. Essentially it was against the abuse of capital and the intentional misleading of people by the spiritual leaders of the society.

Now, in the context of the time "Jesus'" ideas were revolutionary. It's not that his ideas were the same as Marx's, but they were in that same vain, "emancipation of the toiling masses", empowerment of the common man, and liberalism.

Since the time that the "image" of Jesus was taken in by the establishment those ideas have obviously changed, just as happened with Marx in the environemnt of Stalinist Russia and Maoist China.

Bjorn
27th May 2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Tony
Yes, Jesus was a bedwetting communist and a fanatic. I have thought this for a long time. Bedwetting again - just couldn't hold it back any longer, could you? :p

Tony
27th May 2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Bjorn
Bedwetting again - just couldn't hold it back any longer, could you? :p


:D

athon
28th May 2003, 12:14 AM
Social revolutionaries are a dime a dozen.

Memorable ones are a little rarer, and rely less on the actions of the revolutionary but on the social climate that follows.

The 'Jesus vs Marx' thing is a common comparison. It echoes the same trend, as well. A desire to change the mode of operation through the people.

Athon

Malachi151
28th May 2003, 05:08 AM
Oh, and of course one of the more obvious and superficial correlations, both were Jews that rejected their faith :p