skepticism in fiction

[Danniel]

Which are the best fictions (not necessarely Sci-F) in literature (including comics), movies and tv, which managed to succeed in creating an entertaining story, yet escaping from the cliché that the supernatural is blatantly true, and skeptics are in denial?


A few ones that I barely remember:

I think some seasons of Scooby Doo fit in that category for children; although I've always found it somewhat boring and pretictable ("let's split; me, Daphne and Velma will go that way, and you and Scooby go the other way", I think that something like that happened in all episodes), and to get worse, in the following seasons the supernatural became real. Fortunately it did not became significantly less boring.

I barely remember of a movie, probably from the late 80s, that was somewhat Scooby-Dooian in the good sense, although I think that the explanations were not the more scientifical possible (although natural). I remember of a holographic ring that was made to someone think that him or herself were a ghost or that it was a ghost ring, and that's all I remember. It was somehow made by mirrors with the real ring hidden under a glass and being "holographed" right above itself.

More recently, I've also watched one episode of another Scooby-Dooian series (live action, not animated) whose name I do not remember, but there was a somewhat cute girl in a motorcycle who was giving all the natural explanations, which seemed to be the real explanation, and that was what everybody concluded. But at the very end, part of the phenomena happened in a way that did not quite fit her explanations. I first interpreted it as something just to left an remnant mystery, but without deeply implying that the supernatural explanation was right. But some people told me that that series is in fact in a middle point between the "skepticals are in denial" and "the skepticals are right"; the skepticals seem to be right, but just because the real supernatural does not give any clue.



...

[TriangleMan]

Encyclopedia Brown? I always liked those as a kid. :)

Hardy Boys were usually pretty good as well.

[TriangleMan]

I think some seasons of Scooby Doo fit in that category for children; although I've always found it somewhat boring and pretictable ("let's split; me, Daphne and Velma will go that way, and you and Scooby go the other way", I think that something like that happened in all episodes)
An episode of Johnny Bravo gave the real explanation for why Freddie and Daphne almost always went off on their own. ;)

[specious_reasons]

I read Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco - ironically immediately after reading The DaVinci Code. Same subject (Knights Templar), two entirely different takes. Eco's book is decidedly more skeptical than Brown's.

It's more difficult to read, though.

[Piscivore]

An episode of Johnny Bravo gave the real explanation for why Freddie and Daphne almost always went off on their own. ;)

Discussing hair care and celebrity gossip? C'mon, that scarf, the tight pants... we know which team Fred's batting for.

[Morrigan]

The Name of the Rose.

[hgc]

The Intuitionist, by Colson Whitehead. It's a novel about a big city elevator inspection department with 2 schools of thought in elevator inspection technique: The Empiricists and the Intuitionists. The hero is an Intuitionist, but the ultimate thrust of this book takes quite an interesting turn. This is of special interest to avocational skeptics. I very highly recommend this book. As a matter of fact, I wish that Randi would read it and offer his thoughts.

[slingblade]

Gee, Sherlock Holmes is too obvious. What about Sagan's Contact?

Clan of the Cave Bear went woo, but still showed us the best shamans trip their brains out....

[Morrigan]

Sherlock Holmes? Strange, considering how woo Conan Doyle was...

[bob_kark]

I read Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco - ironically immediately after reading The DaVinci Code. Same subject (Knights Templar), two entirely different takes. Eco's book is decidedly more skeptical than Brown's.

It's more difficult to read, though.

The Name of the Rose.

I agree on both accounts. The only Umberton Eco book that hasn't been skeptical, that I've read, was Baudolino. There was a health dose of fantasy in that one.

[Leif Roar]

I agree on both accounts. The only Umberton Eco book that hasn't been skeptical, that I've read, was Baudolino. There was a health dose of fantasy in that one.

I only got to read the first eighty pages or so before I was stupid enough to leave my copy at my parents', but wasn't part of the concept that Baudolino has a rather loose relationship with truth?

And on another note, I'm tempted to suggest Pratchett's "On Clay Feet" since, even though gods actually exist (and happily throw around lightning bolts) on Discworld, Dorfl's choice of atheism still makes a lot of sense.

[Cuddles]

I'd have to say pretty much everything by Asimov.

Leif Roar - Does "Feet of Clay" have a different name in foriegn land? I've never understood why people do that.

[Leif Roar]

I'd have to say pretty much everything by Asimov.

Leif Roar - Does "Feet of Clay" have a different name in foriegn land? I've never understood why people do that.

Nah, it's just just my memory that's going. Alas, I hardly knew it. Thename of the book is "Feet of Clay", of course.

[sphenisc]

I'd have to say pretty much everything by Asimov.


Except the Azazel short stories.

[bob_kark]

I only got to read the first eighty pages or so before I was stupid enough to leave my copy at my parents', but wasn't part of the concept that Baudolino has a rather loose relationship with truth?

Yes, I'm certain it was intentionally written that way and it is still a great book. However, I didn't enjoy it quite as much as his other novels.

[tkingdoll]

Stephen Fry's The Hippopotamus.

[specious_reasons]

I only got to read the first eighty pages or so before I was stupid enough to leave my copy at my parents', but wasn't part of the concept that Baudolino has a rather loose relationship with truth?

And on another note, I'm tempted to suggest Pratchett's "On Clay Feet" since, even though gods actually exist (and happily throw around lightning bolts) on Discworld, Dorfl's choice of atheism still makes a lot of sense.

I recently started on the Discworld novels. I have a penchant for reading them in order, although I understand that it is rarely necessary. All of the books I've read so far have a skeptical/cynical edge to them. I thought Equal Rites was particularly amusing along those lines, with Headology as a form of magic.

[tkingdoll]

I recently started on the Discworld novels. I have a penchant for reading them in order, although I understand that it is rarely necessary. All of the books I've read so far have a skeptical/cynical edge to them. I thought Equal Rites was particularly amusing along those lines, with Headology as a form of magic.

Small Gods is a corker for pointing out the absurdities of organised religion.

[T'ai Chi]

Sherlock Holmes stories. Esp. Hound of the Baskervilles.

[Leif Roar]

Small Gods is a corker for pointing out the absurdities of organised religion.

Also "Monstrous Regiment."

"Up to date? What do you mean, up to date?" said Vimes, looking puzzled. "Holy writs get ... written. Do this, don't do that, no coveting your neighbour's ox..."

"Um... Nuggan doesn't just leave it at that, sir. He, er ... updates things. Mostly the abominations, to be frank."

Vimes took a look at the new copy. It was noticeably thicker than the one he'd brought with him.

"It's what they call a Living Testament," Chinny explained. "They -- well, I suppose you can say they 'die' if they're taken out of Borogravia. They no longer ... get added to. The latest Abominations are at the end , sir," he said helpfully.

"This is a holy book with an appendix?"

"Exactly, sir."

"In a ring binder?"

[...]

[Vimes] leafed through the pages and stopped.

"The color blue?"

"Correct, sir."

"What's abominable about the color blue? It's just a color. The sky is blue!"

"Yes, sir. Devote Nugganites try not to look at it these days. Um..." Chinny had been trained as a diplomat. Some things he didn't like to say directly.

"Nuggan sir ... um ... is rather ... tetchy," he managed.

"Tetchy?" said Vimes, "A tetchy god? What, he complains about the noise their kids make? Objects to loud music after nine P.M.?"

"Um... we get the Ankh-Morpork Times here, sir, eventually, and, er, I'd say, er, that Nuggan is very much like, er, the kind of people who write to its letter columns. You know, sir. The kind who sign their letters 'Disgusted with Ankh-Morpork'..."

[1984]

2001: A Space Odyssey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_a_space_odyssey). The novel was written by Arthur C. Clarke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke) who contributed to the movie.

Red Dwarf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Dwarf)

[Cuddles]

Also "Monstrous Regiment."

"Up to date? What do you mean, up to date?" said Vimes, looking puzzled. "Holy writs get ... written. Do this, don't do that, no coveting your neighbour's ox..."

"Um... Nuggan doesn't just leave it at that, sir. He, er ... updates things. Mostly the abominations, to be frank."

Vimes took a look at the new copy. It was noticeably thicker than the one he'd brought with him.

"It's what they call a Living Testament," Chinny explained. "They -- well, I suppose you can say they 'die' if they're taken out of Borogravia. They no longer ... get added to. The latest Abominations are at the end , sir," he said helpfully.

"This is a holy book with an appendix?"

"Exactly, sir."

"In a ring binder?"

[...]

[Vimes] leafed through the pages and stopped.

"The color blue?"

"Correct, sir."

"What's abominable about the color blue? It's just a color. The sky is blue!"

"Yes, sir. Devote Nugganites try not to look at it these days. Um..." Chinny had been trained as a diplomat. Some things he didn't like to say directly.

"Nuggan sir ... um ... is rather ... tetchy," he managed.

"Tetchy?" said Vimes, "A tetchy god? What, he complains about the noise their kids make? Objects to loud music after nine P.M.?"

"Um... we get the Ankh-Morpork Times here, sir, eventually, and, er, I'd say, er, that Nuggan is very much like, er, the kind of people who write to its letter columns. You know, sir. The kind who sign their letters 'Disgusted with Ankh-Morpork'..."

I didn't really notice when I read it, but that's pretty much what happens in David Eddings' "The Elenium" series as well.

Now I think about it that could also be an interesting read for you. Although it is not sceptical about the supernatural in general, the main religion is an analogue of Chritianity and there are regular arguments over it's basis in faith instead of proof, as well as it's impracticality in the real world.

[Jorghnassen]

Sherlock Holmes? Strange, considering how woo Conan Doyle was...

It's sort of ironic that Doyle, a gullible believer, created one of the most logical, reasonable and skeptical characters of all literature. You can contrast this with H.P. Lovecraft, who was a very skeptical and pro-science person and wrote the most out of this world supernatural stories filled with such imagination and crazy woo concepts that to this day, some people believe the Necronomicon is real...

[hgc]

It's sort of ironic that Doyle, a gullible believer, created one of the most logical, reasonable and skeptical characters of all literature. ...He spilled all his skepticism onto the page. Had none left for himself.

[Morrigan]

It's sort of ironic that Doyle, a gullible believer, created one of the most logical, reasonable and skeptical characters of all literature. You can contrast this with H.P. Lovecraft, who was a very skeptical and pro-science person and wrote the most out of this world supernatural stories filled with such imagination and crazy woo concepts that to this day, some people believe the Necronomicon is real...
Good observation. Another reason why Lovecraft >>>>> Doyle, too. :D

[Loopus]

It's sort of ironic that Doyle, a gullible believer, created one of the most logical, reasonable and skeptical characters of all literature.
Indeed. Holmes actually makes possibly his most skeptical statements in "The Sussex Vampire," one of the last Holmes stories written, when Doyle was at his most spiritual. In that story, Holmes calls the idea that vampires may be concerned with someone's affairs "pure lunacy" and goes on to say "This agency stands flat-footed upon the ground, and there it must remain. The world is big enough for us. No ghosts need apply."

Amazing that this was written by a man who believed in fairies and that Harry Houdini used real magic.

Anther statement of skepticism occurs in "The Devil's Foot": "I take it, in the first place, that niether of us is prepared to admit diabolical intrusions into the affairs of men. Let us begin by ruling that entirely out of our minds."

The Hound of the Baskervilles is a bit more complicated concerning Holmes's skepticism. He appears to accept the possibility of the supernatural. In chapter 3, the following exchange occurs:
Holmes: . . .If the devil did desire to have a hand in the affairs of men---
Watson: Then you are yourself inclining to the supernatural explanation.
Holmes: The devil's agents may be of flesh and blood, may they not?

However, Holmes goes on to say, "But we are bound to exhaust all other hypothoses before falling back upon this one," which is a perfectly skeptical statement to one who is willing to entertain the possibility of the supernatural in the absence of any other explanation. But Holmes absolutely refuses to ever accept that explanation until there are no others. And, of course, there always are.

[RebeccaBradley]

Imaginary Friends, by Alison Lurie. A couple of anthropologists set out to study a sort of kitchen-table cult that has formed around a teenage girl-messiah. Weirdness ensues.

Has anyone here read the Lucia books by E.F. Benson? They're brilliant comedies of manners, but Benson also lampoons the woo fashions of the 1920s and 30s, which are not very different from today's infestations.

[Chaos]

Indeed. Holmes actually makes possibly his most skeptical statements in "The Sussex Vampire," one of the last Holmes stories written, when Doyle was at his most spiritual. In that story, Holmes calls the idea that vampires may be concerned with someone's affairs "pure lunacy" and goes on to say "This agency stands flat-footed upon the ground, and there it must remain. The world is big enough for us. No ghosts need apply."

Amazing that this was written by a man who believed in fairies and that Harry Houdini used real magic.

Anther statement of skepticism occurs in "The Devil's Foot": "I take it, in the first place, that niether of us is prepared to admit diabolical intrusions into the affairs of men. Let us begin by ruling that entirely out of our minds."

The Hound of the Baskervilles is a bit more complicated concerning Holmes's skepticism. He appears to accept the possibility of the supernatural. In chapter 3, the following exchange occurs:


However, Holmes goes on to say, "But we are bound to exhaust all other hypothoses before falling back upon this one," which is a perfectly skeptical statement to one who is willing to entertain the possibility of the supernatural in the absence of any other explanation. But Holmes absolutely refuses to ever accept that explanation until there are no others. And, of course, there always are.

I wondered about this before.

My theory is that Doyle, being a rampant woo-woo, finds nothing at all out of the ordinary in having the villains of his stories frame supernatural elements to cover up their crimes - as for him, the supernatural was real, making it look like someone was killed by a vampire was the same to him as it to make it look as if someone was killed by, say, a vengeful ex-lover. An since, to Doyle, the supernatural was very real and believeable, he needed a rampant skeptic like Holmes to see through the deception (as, in the cases, it actually was a deception even from Doyle´s POV).

[fuelair]

Which are the best fictions (not necessarely Sci-F) in literature (including comics), movies and tv, which managed to succeed in creating an entertaining story, yet escaping from the cliché that the supernatural is blatantly true, and skeptics are in denial?


A few ones that I barely remember:

I think some seasons of Scooby Doo fit in that category for children; although I've always found it somewhat boring and pretictable ("let's split; me, Daphne and Velma will go that way, and you and Scooby go the other way", I think that something like that happened in all episodes), and to get worse, in the following seasons the supernatural became real. Fortunately it did not became significantly less boring.

I barely remember of a movie, probably from the late 80s, that was somewhat Scooby-Dooian in the good sense, although I think that the explanations were not the more scientifical possible (although natural). I remember of a holographic ring that was made to someone think that him or herself were a ghost or that it was a ghost ring, and that's all I remember. It was somehow made by mirrors with the real ring hidden under a glass and being "holographed" right above itself.

More recently, I've also watched one episode of another Scooby-Dooian series (live action, not animated) whose name I do not remember, but there was a somewhat cute girl in a motorcycle who was giving all the natural explanations, which seemed to be the real explanation, and that was what everybody concluded. But at the very end, part of the phenomena happened in a way that did not quite fit her explanations. I first interpreted it as something just to left an remnant mystery, but without deeply implying that the supernatural explanation was right. But some people told me that that series is in fact in a middle point between the "skepticals are in denial" and "the skepticals are right"; the skepticals seem to be right, but just because the real supernatural does not give any clue.



...

I assumed Shaggy and Scooby were sent away so the other three could pull a three-way.

[Tarot_Is_A_Card_Game!]

"Mark of the Vampire" starring Bela Lugosi. This is a remake of a well known lost silent film "London After Midnight"
SPOILER ALERT






The vampires are revealed as fake. It's a sort of Scooby Doo type of ending.

[bruto]

A couple of books that deal in a humorous and generally skeptical way with woo subjects are Bigfoot Dreams and Hunters and Gatherers by Francine Prose. A pretty amusing excursion into the world of fanaticism can be found in Paul Theroux's Millroy the Magician, too.

[Dr Adequate]

It's sort of ironic that Doyle, a gullible believer, created one of the most logical, reasonable and skeptical characters of all literature. Well, look at Chesterton's Father Brown stories. Written by a Christian apologist, starring a Catholic priest, constantly debunking the supernatural in a Scooby-Doo fashion.

It's just one of the constraints of the detective story form.

[FXMacLeod]

Cool. Those are some books I'm going to have to read.

I remember watching a Japanese show on TV named Trick, or Torikku in Engrish/Katakana. It involved a male College Physicist and a not-so-famous female Magician (her father was a famous Magician) that would debunk people claiming to have supernatural powers. Those supernatural folks usually had a cult following. It had lots of strange humor in it. Unfortunately, at the end of each season they would have 1 unexplained event or supernatural power that involved the female Magician. Otherwise, it was quite a hilarious show. It lasted 3 seasons, each season had about 10 episodes, and they even had a movie!

[Maenoon]

As far as TV shows go, USA network has a new one called "Psych" that features a private investigator who pretends to be psychic, but actually solves cases using critical thinking.

[LibraryLady]

Two excellent skeptic mysteries:

The Pale Horse, Agatha Christie

Strong Poison, Dorothy L. Sayers

[Loopus]

I wondered about this before.

My theory is that Doyle, being a rampant woo-woo, finds nothing at all out of the ordinary in having the villains of his stories frame supernatural elements to cover up their crimes - as for him, the supernatural was real, making it look like someone was killed by a vampire was the same to him as it to make it look as if someone was killed by, say, a vengeful ex-lover. An since, to Doyle, the supernatural was very real and believeable, he needed a rampant skeptic like Holmes to see through the deception (as, in the cases, it actually was a deception even from Doyle´s POV).

That's a good point, and I have no doubt you're right. Dr Adequate brings up another good point (I think this is your point, Doc): that the constraints of the genre demand that the mystery be explained at the end (notwithstanding that Doyle helped to define many of the constraints of the genre: constraints they remain). Holmes would not continue to investigate a case if he ever became convinced that the supernatural was involved because his methods (using logic and reason) would break down in the face of something that, by definition, would not behave naturally. This would result in a case without a solution, or a case with a solution from someone other than Holmes (a consulting medium?), which would be almost as bad for the reader's satisfaction.

Holmes's failures were mentioned briefly from time to time in the canon however, and it is interesting that no case was ever mentioned that was a failure because Holmes deemed the supernatural to be involved.

[Maenoon]

Ack! (smacks herself in the forehead) How could I forget to mention Penn Jillette's book Sock? Is it great literature? No. But a tale told by a sock puppet is rather interesting and it's absolutely skeptical fiction.

[Dark Jaguar]

I've noticed the book "Contact" mentioned here. I've only seen the movie and the ending was a pretty big insult to rational thought. The whole thing basically ended with the girl saying that she prefers faith to reason. From my perspective, the idea that what she experienced actually was merely a dream seemed a perfectly valid conclusion to make, but that movie wanted us to see how great blind faith is and that super advanced aliens think faith is better than reason too.

[Fitter]

I read Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco - ironically immediately after reading The DaVinci Code. Same subject (Knights Templar), two entirely different takes. Eco's book is decidedly more skeptical than Brown's.

It's more difficult to read, though.
This is the first book I read that showed critical thinking to be more entertaining than all the woo in the world. I love how Liana's explanation of the list contrasted so completely with Causobon's et al in terms of being totally reasonable. This passage was the begining of my conversion from credulous to skeptic.

[Polaris]

Sherlock Holmes? Strange, considering how woo Conan Doyle was...

He and Houdini had a falling out over it.

[Meri]

I recently started on the Discworld novels. I have a penchant for reading them in order, although I understand that it is rarely necessary. All of the books I've read so far have a skeptical/cynical edge to them.

I think most Discworld novels could count as skeptical, although as people have pointed out, some contain a more skeptical message than others. They contain a lot of magic, of course, but on Discworld magic works, it isn't really woo. Here, magic doesn't work, so it is. This point is sort of made in the Science of Discworld II (which is only about half fiction). The wizards of Discworld show up in our world, about the time of Shakespeare:

"This is a credulous age. . .The greatest minds spend half their time busying themselves with the study of magic, astrology, alchemy and communion with spirits."

"Well? Sounds just like life at home," said Rincewind.

"Yes," said Hex. "But there is no narrativium in this world. No magic. None of those things work."

"Then why don't they just stop trying it?" said Ponder.

"My inference is that they believe it should work if only they get it right"

"Poor devils," said Rincewind.

"They believe in those, too."

[Mojo]

Two excellent skeptic mysteries:

The Pale Horse, Agatha Christie

Strong Poison, Dorothy L. Sayers

Or how about John Sladek's Black Aura?

[rats]

East of Eden for a lovely description of the ideomotor effect.