God hides himself because he wants us to have faith? Must be a recent thing...

[Dark Jaguar]

Okay, I know the "god is silly for this and this and this reason" threads can't hold at these levels (there are a lot), but here's one more I don't think I saw presented earlier.

Christians (and this is the only religion I'm familiar enough with to say this about, but it may apply to others) like to tote that their beliefs require faith, but they all seem to ignore that God always seemed willing to provide evidence in the bible. I mean from the very start God was tossing miracles out left and right whenever someone had a question. The bad logic of a lot of the things God did aside, it showed he was at least willing to provide evidence. He set bushes on fire, carved tablets out of stone himself, turned staves into snakes, parted seas, did healings, turned people into salt, all with the INTENTION of providing evidence he existed.

Jesus did the same thing in the form of all his miracles. He didn't just walk around saying "hey I'm Christ and if you don't believe in me, just take it on faith", he went around healing illnesses, walking on water, turning water to wine (not the same water I think... I don't like foot-wine), killing some fig tree instantly, rising from the dead and showing his disciples his scars before ascending into heaven, and so on.

My point is, when did god decide "you know what, I changed my mind, instead of providing evidence I exist I'll make it look like I don't exist and just tell them they will burn if they don't believe, despite whether they have any reason to believe I exist or not"? It seems like the god of the bible was a lot more reasonable (well, in this one respect) than the god christians go on about the glory of "faith in the most high". And a lot of them do have a romanticism about how no evidence is needed, they love it (well, I was one of them at one point and that's how I thought). Barring how poor some of that evidence actually was, and the fact that the evidence never actually took place anyway, and the fact that other than that god was an allmighty jerk and contradicted that behavior in the bible himself anyway, I have to ask those who are christians here, why is it that god used to provide evidence when it was asked (directly, no nonsense stuff done CLEARLY for the sake of evidence, that bush burning and that walking on water and that staff turned into a snake weren't done for any OTHER reason), but now he doesn't do jack in the way of providing evidence and just "expects us to have blind faith"?

I eagerly await a reply.

[Ausmerican]

Wait eagerly but hold not thy breath.

[Bubo]

God is dead. We killed Him.

[Bruno Putzeys]

Like "the God of the gaps" I consider the crypto-God a sign that scientific observation is making some headway after all. In the ol' days, it was easy to show manifestations of God by interpreting just about anything salient as such. Or to do conjuring tricks.

These days even very religious people realise this is untenable. Of course, instead of them drawing the right conclusion, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they'll literally grab the first excuse that comes to mind. It's funny to see how people hold on to such a last straw when they promote an ad hoc argument to official theology.

It may feel like we're not getting anywhere, but we are. To believers even marginally versed in physics, God is relegated to ever decreasing holes in the theoretical framework. Likewise, lack of overt manifestations of God now has to be explained away by obviously unconvincing arguments. Although believers seem incredibly elastic to hold on to their beliefs as they become more and more remote from reality, the band must snap at some time.

The only believers left will be those utterly devoid of logic or scientific insight. I mean, look at this forum. How many believers in this forum are capable of setting out a cogent argument? And those who are, aren't they the most moderate believers around?

[Raphael]

The only believers left will be those utterly devoid of logic or scientific insight.

So that's about what, 4 or 5 billion?

[Bruno Putzeys]

I reckon ;)

Seriously, you're implicitly assuming everyone to have equal access to education and information. If that were the case, the number of true believers would be less. A lot less (I hope).

[DreadNiK]

"Well I guess God was a lot more demonstrative back when he flamboyantly parted the sea" - Bad Religion (everyone should listen to this band, most intelligent political-punk band ever...Greg Graffin, the vocalist, has a Ph.D (I think) in evolutionary biology and corresponds with Dawkins sometimes)

[StewartP]

The xian response would probably be John 12:36-38
Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

ie God & JC have already given us a shed-load of signs and wonders and STILL we don't believe. What's the point of him giving any more? Have faith in what has already been revealed.

A crock o' sh1te in my opinion

[Bruno Putzeys]

Remarkable synchronicity of the cessation of miracles and the finishing of the bible. As long as the pundits were looking on...

[The Don]

Apparently miracles happen all the time

http://www.mcn.org/1/Miracles/

Those who search for signs
will find them...

[Abdul Alhazred]

Alternative explanation: God is fed up and is ignoring us.

Of course some believers would say that God isn't hiding Himself at all and attribute natural distasters to His wrath.

[FireGarden]

Protons are positive and repel each other. Yet the nucleus of the atom does not fly apart. Is that not miracle enough?













(c) Jack Chick

[Bruno Putzeys]

Protons are positive and repel each other. Yet the nucleus of the atom does not fly apart. Is that not miracle enough?
A gasoline and air mixture is made to detonate inside my car. Yet, my car is not blown to smithereens. A miracle indeed.

[Just thinking]

Of course some believers would say that God isn't hiding Himself at all and attribute natural distasters to His wrath.

Do you think that line of reasoning is any different today than years long past? I have a strong feeling that that's what happened back then -- then mix well with thousands of years of embellishment.

[Katana]

I think DNA is pretty miraculous.

[FireGarden]

A gasoline and air mixture is made to detonate inside my car. Yet, my car is not blown to smithereens. A miracle indeed.

The sun is basically loads of nuclear bombs going off, but we're not dead from the fallout. A genuine miracle.

[Bruno Putzeys]

I think DNA is pretty miraculous.
Amazing, yes. Miraculous, no.

[Katana]

Amazing, yes. Miraculous, no.

You're right. Miraculous has too many religious connotations. I stand corrected.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Do you think that line of reasoning is any different today than years long past? I have a strong feeling that that's what happened back then -- then mix well with thousands of years of embellishment.

Of course.

It's the "God not showing Himself" rationalization that's new.

[KingMerv00]

Many faithful like to claim that if God revealed himself to us, we would lose our free will. We would be forced to follow him because his existance would be so obvious.

Adam and Eve?
Satan?
Sodom?
That stupid pharaoh?

[Abdul Alhazred]

In the case of Pharaoh, the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.
(Exodus 9:12)

Sweet. :dewink:

[phildonnia]

Remarkable synchronicity of the cessation of miracles and the finishing of the bible. As long as the pundits were looking on...

One theist explanation for this comes from Rv 22:18:
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book...
which some take to mean that this was the end of all divine revelation, including miracles and such.

Of course, this interpretation relies heavily on the belief that "these things" and "this book" refers to the Bible, which did not exist at the time Revelation was written...

[LostAngeles]

In the case of Pharaoh, the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.
(Exodus 9:12)

Sweet. :dewink:

Yeah, what the hell was up with that.

God:"I want the Israelites to be free from Egypt. Moses, go to Pharoh. I got your back."
Moses: "Uh ok." *goes to Pharoh* "Let my people go."
Pharoh: "No."
Moses: "God, Pharoh won't let us go."
God: "Do my magic tricks"
Moses: "OK." *Moses and the Pharoh's magicians have a magic trick battle. Moses wins.*
Pharoh: "Holy Crap! I guess I better..."
*God hardens Pharoh's Heart*
Pharoh: "... not... let... you go."
Moses: "There'll be plagues..."
Pharoh: "Bah. Bring it bitch."
*plague*
Pharoh: "That sucked. I'm gonna..."
*God hardens Pharoh's Heart*
Pharoh: "...keep... the... Israelites..."
*repeat until God gets to kill all the firstborn of Egypt, which was apparently his plan along.*

4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

And then he's not even done after that, because he hardens Pharoh's heart again so that the Pharoh and his soldiers drown in the Red Sea.

What the hell is up with Old Testament Yahweh and why is he such an *******?

[KingMerv00]

What the hell is up with Old Testament Yahweh and why is he such an *******?

Maybe Yahweh is an *******. I think Jesus was his rebellious hippie son that He wasn't even proud of.

[LostAngeles]

Maybe Yahweh is an *******. I think Jesus was his rebellious hippie son that He wasn't even proud of.

Hence the Passion and Crucifixtion and the using of Yeshua to **** up the world? Kinda fits. If you're a cockwad and your son is down preaching the message of love and goodwill, what better way to deal with it than have him tortured, die in a horrible manner, and then completely pervert the message.

[KingMerv00]

Hence the Passion and Crucifixtion and the using of Yeshua to **** up the world? Kinda fits. If you're a cockwad and your son is down preaching the message of love and goodwill, what better way to deal with it than have him tortured, die in a horrible manner, and then completely pervert the message.

Way way way off topic.

Jesus was a carpenter. Did he ever build anything?

[stamenflicker]

Okay, I know the "god is silly for this and this and this reason" threads can't hold at these levels (there are a lot), but here's one more I don't think I saw presented earlier.

Christians (and this is the only religion I'm familiar enough with to say this about, but it may apply to others) like to tote that their beliefs require faith, but they all seem to ignore that God always seemed willing to provide evidence in the bible. I mean from the very start God was tossing miracles out left and right whenever someone had a question. The bad logic of a lot of the things God did aside, it showed he was at least willing to provide evidence. He set bushes on fire, carved tablets out of stone himself, turned staves into snakes, parted seas, did healings, turned people into salt, all with the INTENTION of providing evidence he existed.

Jesus did the same thing in the form of all his miracles. He didn't just walk around saying "hey I'm Christ and if you don't believe in me, just take it on faith", he went around healing illnesses, walking on water, turning water to wine (not the same water I think... I don't like foot-wine), killing some fig tree instantly, rising from the dead and showing his disciples his scars before ascending into heaven, and so on.

My point is, when did god decide "you know what, I changed my mind, instead of providing evidence I exist I'll make it look like I don't exist and just tell them they will burn if they don't believe, despite whether they have any reason to believe I exist or not"? It seems like the god of the bible was a lot more reasonable (well, in this one respect) than the god christians go on about the glory of "faith in the most high". And a lot of them do have a romanticism about how no evidence is needed, they love it (well, I was one of them at one point and that's how I thought). Barring how poor some of that evidence actually was, and the fact that the evidence never actually took place anyway, and the fact that other than that god was an allmighty jerk and contradicted that behavior in the bible himself anyway, I have to ask those who are christians here, why is it that god used to provide evidence when it was asked (directly, no nonsense stuff done CLEARLY for the sake of evidence, that bush burning and that walking on water and that staff turned into a snake weren't done for any OTHER reason), but now he doesn't do jack in the way of providing evidence and just "expects us to have blind faith"?

I eagerly await a reply.

Well so much for the direct approach, nes pas? I still don't see the point, because if he did all kinds of miracles and such, it wouldn't answer the question as to whether or not is was worthy of such belief.

[KingMerv00]

Well so much for the direct approach, nes pas? I still don't see the point, because if he did all kinds of miracles and such, it wouldn't answer the question as to whether or not is was worthy of such belief.

That's not the focus of this thread anyway. Why is the Bible so front-loaded with the cool stuff? Where did all the cool stuff go?

Why is there a negative correlation between the number of miracles and our proficiency with science?

[Dark Jaguar]

That's about right, and more specifically I'm talking about how the bible itself flies in the face of the christian defense that god is intentionally hiding from us so we will "have faith". What prompted the change of heart?

Abdul, Lost, I gotta say that very act of insanity was one of the first questions I started asking myself about. I've never got a good explanation for why god purposefully deprived Pharaoh of free will to actually literally force him to disobey God. That never sat well with me, and the answers I always got were things like "god works in mysterious ways" or "it's in the translation probably...". That didn't settle with me, though at first I just set that question on the "back burner" because I thought "hey I know there's a real answer here". Anyway long story short it was one of the main problems I could never resolve which made me abandon my faith (the other one was finally accepting that "faith" is just an emotionally charged way of saying "I have no evidence at all but I want to think it's true so I do").

Still doesn't help answer this mystery.

[ceo_esq]

Way way way off topic.

Jesus was a carpenter. Did he ever build anything?

Actually, the scriptural evidence that Jesus was a carpenter is not very strong. People mostly assume he was because Joseph is unambiguously identified as one. I've seen it suggested that if Jesus did practice carpentry, the biggest demand would have been for boat repair and farm implements.

[ceo_esq]

That's not the focus of this thread anyway. Why is the Bible so front-loaded with the cool stuff? Where did all the cool stuff go?

Why is there a negative correlation between the number of miracles and our proficiency with science?

In the latter part of Old Testament history (chronologically speaking), there's actually not much in the way of "cool stuff". I'm speaking from memory here, but I don't recall any miracles or other divine interventions in, say, Nehemiah. The Jesus and the Apostles represented kind of a brief comeback in the miracle department.

[Abdul Alhazred]

In the latter part of Old Testament history (chronologically speaking), there's actually not much in the way of "cool stuff". ...

Unless you count "visions" as miracles.

Then there's the prophet Jonah, but it's not so certain that was meant to be taken as literal history, given the style.

[Dark Jaguar]

Jesus was a carpenter, but the fact of the matter is he wasn't a very good carpenter. For example, this table. One of the legs is shorter than the other, and of course it has only two of them. I don't know what this is. It might be a spice rack (places spice on one part of thing and it rolls to the ground and breaks) but if so it is not a very good one.

I love Kids in the Hall.

[David Swidler]

I can't address the OP from a Christian standpoint, but I can offer a synopsis of the classical Jewish approach.

The Talmud in tractate Megillah connects the story of Esther with the verse in Deuteronomy (31:18): "And I shall surely hide my face on that day..." referring to the eventual consequences of Israel's foretold "straying." Esther's name contains the Hebrew root for "hide" (s-t-r).

In other words, the Talmud is saying that as of about the time of Esther, there is no more direct divine revelation (though there was some residual prophecy in that generation - Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi). The world exists from then on in a state of God "hiding his face." So while there might be the occasional wonder, the paradigm has changed. The story of Esther itself bears this out: not only does every event in the book appear non-miraculous, God himself isn't mentioned, even when we would expect otherwise (e.g. Esther 4:14). He operates behind the scenes.

Elsewhere, the Talmud says that at the beginning of the Second Temple Era (c. 500 BCE) the drive to worship idols disappeared (subsequent idol worship, accordingly, would stem from resistance to change and lack of apparent alternatives to worship, not from an inner drive comparable to human sexuality). So the same period, according to the Talmud, saw a sea change in human spirituality - on the one hand there was no more drive to worship idols, but at the same time there was no more direct contact with God.

[FireGarden]

I still don't see the point, because if he did all kinds of miracles and such, it wouldn't answer the question as to whether or not is was worthy of such belief.

It's not just the miracles that have stopped, though. There has been no serious prophet since Jesus (according to you) or since 1830 (according to Mormons).

Of course, plenty of faith healers disagree with the supposed lack of miracles.

[Ossai]

FireGarden
Protons are positive and repel each other. Yet the nucleus of the atom does not fly apart. Is that not miracle enough?



(c) Jack Chick
Indeed, all praise the FSM.

[kurious_kathy]

I can't address the OP from a Christian standpoint, but I can offer a synopsis of the classical Jewish approach.

The Talmud in tractate Megillah connects the story of Esther with the verse in Deuteronomy (31:18): "And I shall surely hide my face on that day..." referring to the eventual consequences of Israel's foretold "straying." Esther's name contains the Hebrew root for "hide" (s-t-r).

In other words, the Talmud is saying that as of about the time of Esther, there is no more direct divine revelation (though there was some residual prophecy in that generation - Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi). The world exists from then on in a state of God "hiding his face." So while there might be the occasional wonder, the paradigm has changed. The story of Esther itself bears this out: not only does every event in the book appear non-miraculous, God himself isn't mentioned, even when we would expect otherwise (e.g. Esther 4:14). He operates behind the scenes.

Elsewhere, the Talmud says that at the beginning of the Second Temple Era (c. 500 BCE) the drive to worship idols disappeared (subsequent idol worship, accordingly, would stem from resistance to change and lack of apparent alternatives to worship, not from an inner drive comparable to human sexuality). So the same period, according to the Talmud, saw a sea change in human spirituality - on the one hand there was no more drive to worship idols, but at the same time there was no more direct contact with God.
Oh really, than how do you explain what Hebrews 11 has to say about faith?

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because heconsidered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

[KelvinG]

After reading Kurious Kathy's post, I had to repost this from earlier in this thread. Excellent insight Bruno:

The only believers left will be those utterly devoid of logic or scientific insight. I mean, look at this forum. How many believers in this forum are capable of setting out a cogent argument? And those who are, aren't they the most moderate believers around?

[Meffy]

I've never got a good explanation for why god purposefully deprived Pharaoh of free will to actually literally force him to disobey God.
Couldn't it just be that God gave Pharaoh a mighty hankerin' for cholesterol-laden foods? That'd harden his arteries and very likely the heart.

[zakur]

Oh really, than how do you explain what Hebrews 11 has to say about faith? [snip]

Nice cut-and-paste job (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/faithful.htm), k_k. Anything original to contribute?

[kurious_kathy]

After reading Kurious Kathy's post, I had to repost this from earlier in this thread. Excellent insight Bruno:

That's not true. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life!

[KingMerv00]

Oh really, than how do you explain what Hebrews 11 has to say about faith?

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because heconsidered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

*Looks for faith in Kathy's post...finds none*

Um...are you even aware of the topic in this thread? The people you mentioned above had direct evidence of God through miracles. That does not qualify as faith.

[grayman]

That's not rue. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life!

Here it is again, woo thought process:

I don't understand it.

Science hasn't explained it.

Therefor it is supernatural.

[KingMerv00]

That's not rue. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life!

DNA is complex and needs a creator but God does not?

[kurious_kathy]

DNA is complex and needs a creator but God does not?
That's true. It reminds me of a question my daughter asked me last year that really stirred me. Who created God? He has always been so it's an interesting topic.

Are you familiar with Hank Henegraaf's work? His ministry CRI is pretty good and this one book he wrote callled the Bible answer Book has some pretty interesting insights. I'll have to look for that article on "who created God" and copy some it for you.

Who Made God? by Hank Henegraaf
None of the aruments forwarded by by philisophical naturalism stisfactororily account for the existence of the universe. Logically we can only turne to the possibility that God created the heavens and the earth as Genesis 1:1 states.

First unlike the universe, which according to science had a beginning, God is infinite and eternal. Thus as an eternal being, God logically can be demonstrated to be the uncaused First Cause.

Furthermore, to suppose that because the universe had a cause, the cause of the universe must have had a cause simply leads to a logical dead end. An infinite regression of finite causes does not answer the question of source; it merely makes the effects more numerous.

Finally, simple logic dictates that the universe is not merely an illusion; it did not spring out of nothing(nothing comes from nothing; nothing ever could); and ithas not eternally existed(the law of entropy predicts that the universe that has eternally existed would have died an "eternity ago" of heat loss).Thus, the only philisophically plausible possibility that remains is that the universe was made by an unmade Cause greater than itself.

Pretty insightful if you ask me.

[Genesius]

That's not true. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life!

Sources?

Name any reputable scientist whose field of expertise involves working with DNA who "finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere."

I think you're full of (in the immortal words of Col. Sherman Potter) buffalo bagels!

[KingMerv00]

That's true. It reminds me of a question my daughter asked me last year that really stirred me. Who created God? He has always been so it's an interesting topic.

Are you familiar with Hank Henegraaf's work? His ministry CRI is pretty good and this one book he wrote callled the Bible answer Book has some pretty interesting insights. I'll have to look for that article on "who created God" and copy some it for you.

Look under the chapter entitled "Special Pleading".

[Meffy]

(the law of entropy predicts that the universe that has eternally existed would have died an "eternity ago" of heat loss)
This statement is incredibly uninformed. You have heard of the Big Bang, haven't you?

Leave it to a woo to parrot scientific-looking babble when it suits her or his purposes, all the while denying science's validity in any other case. =9_9=

[edit] I see you even stated previously in the same post quoted above that you already knew the universe had a beginning. So how could it have "eternally existed?" *tsk* Please try not to contradict yourself so blatantly.

[KingMerv00]

That's true. It reminds me of a question my daughter asked me last year that really stirred me. Who created God? He has always been so it's an interesting topic.

Are you familiar with Hank Henegraaf's work? His ministry CRI is pretty good and this one book he wrote callled the Bible answer Book has some pretty interesting insights. I'll have to look for that article on "who created God" and copy some it for you.

Who Made God? by Hank Henegraaf
None of the aruments forwarded by by philisophical naturalism stisfactororily account for the existence of the universe. Logically we can only turne to the possibility that God created the heavens and the earth as Genesis 1:1 states.

First unlike the universe, which according to science had a beginning, God is infinite and eternal. Thus as an eternal being, God logically can be demonstrated to be the uncaused First Cause.

Furthermore, to suppose that because the universe had a cause, the cause of the universe must have had a cause simply leads to a logical dead end. An infinite regression of finite causes does not answer the question of source; it merely makes the effects more numerous.

Finally, simple logic dictates that the universe is not merely an illusion; it did not spring out of nothing(nothing comes from nothing; nothing ever could); and ithas not eternally existed(the law of entropy predicts that the universe that has eternally existed would have died an "eternity ago" of heat loss).Thus, the only philisophically plausible possibility that remains is that the universe was made by an unmade Cause greater than itself.

Pretty insightful if you ask me.

Hank gets an "F". He has not accurately stated the scientific position, his conclusions do not logically follow his premises, and he doesn't know the difference between a "logical demonstration" and a "just so story".

[LostAngeles]

Nice cut-and-paste job (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/faithful.htm), k_k. Anything original to contribute?

Is that a rule 4 violation or do my eyes decieve me?

Edit: Er, rule 4 is the plagarism/copyright rule, right?

[I less than three logic]

[edit] I see you even stated previously in the same post quoted above that you already knew the universe had a beginning. So how could it have "eternally existed?" *tsk* Please try not to contradict yourself so blatantly.
By making blatant contradictions she is just staying consistant with the writting style of the Bible. :)

[Dark Jaguar]

That's not true. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life!

Could you provide sources for the statement that all these scientists have turned to Christ?

Further, finally realized DNA had to come from somewhere? They already knew that, and I can tell you exactly where my DNA came from, my mother and father. No miracle needed, mere mechanics.

How did it originally come about? Study abiogenesis and then get back to us.

And it is good to know your kid is stumping you. Unfortunate to know you are basically doing what I used to do and say "good question" and then not even really take the time to consider it's validity.

[RandFan]

That's not true. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life! Please see Project Steve (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/steve/).

Oops, it seems I erred a bit. Thanks Dark Jaguar. I think it is fair to say that most if not all of the Steve's accept abiogenesis. I could be wrong.

[kurious_kathy]

Is that a rule 4 violation or do my eyes decieve me?

Edit: Er, rule 4 is the plagarism/copyright rule, right?

Excuse me. People refer to peoples works all the time here. I have not copied it excatly and I have said who wrote it and where it came from. You guys may actually be interested in Hanks book, why don't you buy it yourself you may learn something new. I know I have gained much valuable info from it and could highly recommend you inquire for yourselves.

And as far as scientist that have come to faith in Christ I have given that info before and only got shot down for it. If you will make inquiry yourselves I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised to hear from some of them. Or do professing atheists only validate peoples work who deny God?

[RandFan]

First unlike the universe, which according to science had a beginning, God is infinite and eternal. Thus as an eternal being, God logically can be demonstrated to be the uncaused First Cause.It's so nice to have your cake and eat it to. Sadly, this is a non-sequitur.

Your argument: DNA is complex and must have been designed.
By this logic God must have been designed. Full Stop. End of story.

Either your logic is valid or it is not. Whether science believes there was a beginning is beside the point.

[Meffy]

By making blatant contradictions she is just staying consistant with the writting style of the Bible. :)
D'oh! Curse you Minnesotans and your "logic." *shakes fist* I know you're really Vulcans in disguise.

[Kitty Chan]

Okay, I know the "god is silly for this and this and this reason" threads can't hold at these levels (there are a lot), but here's one more I don't think I saw presented earlier.

Christians (and this is the only religion I'm familiar enough with to say this about, but it may apply to others) like to tote that their beliefs require faith, but they all seem to ignore that God always seemed willing to provide evidence in the bible. I mean from the very start God was tossing miracles out left and right whenever someone had a question. The bad logic of a lot of the things God did aside, it showed he was at least willing to provide evidence. He set bushes on fire, carved tablets out of stone himself, turned staves into snakes, parted seas, did healings, turned people into salt, all with the INTENTION of providing evidence he existed.

Jesus did the same thing in the form of all his miracles. He didn't just walk around saying "hey I'm Christ and if you don't believe in me, just take it on faith", he went around healing illnesses, walking on water, turning water to wine (not the same water I think... I don't like foot-wine), killing some fig tree instantly, rising from the dead and showing his disciples his scars before ascending into heaven, and so on.

My point is, when did god decide "you know what, I changed my mind, instead of providing evidence I exist I'll make it look like I don't exist and just tell them they will burn if they don't believe, despite whether they have any reason to believe I exist or not"? It seems like the god of the bible was a lot more reasonable (well, in this one respect) than the god christians go on about the glory of "faith in the most high". And a lot of them do have a romanticism about how no evidence is needed, they love it (well, I was one of them at one point and that's how I thought). Barring how poor some of that evidence actually was, and the fact that the evidence never actually took place anyway, and the fact that other than that god was an allmighty jerk and contradicted that behavior in the bible himself anyway, I have to ask those who are christians here, why is it that god used to provide evidence when it was asked (directly, no nonsense stuff done CLEARLY for the sake of evidence, that bush burning and that walking on water and that staff turned into a snake weren't done for any OTHER reason), but now he doesn't do jack in the way of providing evidence and just "expects us to have blind faith"?

I eagerly await a reply.

If your still eager heres a reply;

actually Stewart had a good response, hes correct.

"John 12:36-38
Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

Isaiah was written before and one has to remember that people of that day actually knew the Torah so understood more the meaning of what was said than we do today.

Christ taught, used parables, performed miracles He used various ways of communication to get across the point. Its right to bring up the magician show with the pharoh, Christ was clear that signs and wonders should not be relyed upon to believe. Because magicians can reproduce wonders so He said be skeptical :-) dont believe the first thing you see test it out.

When a building I was in caught on fire, all of us in there were told theres a fire get out, we smelled the smoke, but only when we opened the door to the shop and saw the flames did we as a group finally leave. We just didnt believe the evidence. Thats why when something unusual happens we are seeing but not believing, and we dont react like we should. Thus why the army trains, trains, trains that reaction out of soldiers so they react automaticaly.

So while signs and wonders are interesting, they are not the point. The main purpose of a "wonder: is to get one attention. Then the point can be stated and perhaps understood, thats what is more important than any miracles.

ps the point was? Love your neighbour, as I have loved you. The rest is smoke and mirrors to get people to listen.

[grayman]

D'oh! Curse you Minnesotans and your "logic." *shakes fist* I know you're really Vulcans in disguise.

You think that I less than three logic is a Vulcan, that I am Klingon...Meffy,Meffy,Meffy, it's time to put down the tricorder and step slowly away from it.

majQa'

[CardZeus]

Protons are positive and repel each other. Yet the nucleus of the atom does not fly apart. Is that not miracle enough?


Ever heard of the strong nuclear force? Didn't think so...

[FireGarden]

err...
Yes I have have heard of the strong nuclear force.

I'll pass your comment on to Jack Chick.

[Beancounter]

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

I have to confess I didn't really understand this post, but re. the quote above KK, at what point do Christians start to get the message that they will never get what is promised and start to focus on living in the here and now?

[KingMerv00]

If your still eager heres a reply;

actually Stewart had a good response, hes correct.

"John 12:36-38
Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

Isaiah was written before and one has to remember that people of that day actually knew the Torah so understood more the meaning of what was said than we do today.

Christ taught, used parables, performed miracles He used various ways of communication to get across the point. Its right to bring up the magician show with the pharoh, Christ was clear that signs and wonders should not be relyed upon to believe. Because magicians can reproduce wonders so He said be skeptical :-) dont believe the first thing you see test it out.

When a building I was in caught on fire, all of us in there were told theres a fire get out, we smelled the smoke, but only when we opened the door to the shop and saw the flames did we as a group finally leave. We just didnt believe the evidence. Thats why when something unusual happens we are seeing but not believing, and we dont react like we should. Thus why the army trains, trains, trains that reaction out of soldiers so they react automaticaly.

So while signs and wonders are interesting, they are not the point. The main purpose of a "wonder: is to get one attention. Then the point can be stated and perhaps understood, thats what is more important than any miracles.

ps the point was? Love your neighbour, as I have loved you. The rest is smoke and mirrors to get people to listen.

OK let's say miracles aren't the point. So what? Why use them for 4000 years and then stop suddenly? Besides, miracles would save many souls. People who like evidence would dearly appreciate it.

[Meffy]

You think that I less than three logic is a Vulcan, that I am Klingon...Meffy,Meffy,Meffy, it's time to put down the tricorder and step slowly away from it.
Tricorders are old hat. I've got something better: a lab full of computers. =O.O= =^_^=

[Kitty Chan]

OK let's say miracles aren't the point. So what? Why use them for 4000 years and then stop suddenly? Besides, miracles would save many souls. People who like evidence would dearly appreciate it.

Hmm your right doubting Thomas's would like evidence, Id like to see ( I have another thread here Im trying to determine that very question) but still have to say evidence is still not necessarily believed. People know smoking can kill them but still smoke. But aside from that, miracles. Some say they stopped with the close of the new testament.

Ive ran it over my head and asked your question myself why stop? But maybe they havent, maybe we just cant recoginze them, one reason is theres alot of fakes out there. ANd people are amazed so easily. You should hear them at work about Chris Angel, Blaine etc. I try to expain they are only talented but its deaf ears. Maybe I should try to learn the tricks myself and amaze and mystify myself and say I hoodwinked them.

I do hear of healings but havent cataloged the ones that are beyond explaination. So theres no record I know of to look at.

Another thing I thought of is in the bible it speaks of I think 100 yrs of silence, I think its between old and new. I have no theology to back this idea up but perhaps its that again? Thus why no miracles.

If the bible is true and there is a antichrist coming up (which really is one of many along the years) but apparentely hes gonna be big in miracles and wow the crowd. They will be impressed. Im hoping the skeptics are gonna be saying but look we can do that too! But I wonder if the crowd will listen? Perhaps thats why miracles are low key now cause its gonna be big later. Christ does say that the anti christ will even fool the elect if that is possible (which means christians) we christian or not, so terribly want to be impressed, look at celibrity. Thats what Christ was up against, thats the points He was trying to get through thick heads. No razzle dazzle just the basics, love one another, but its not flashy.

Just thoughts, being as up front as I can :-)

[KingMerv00]

Hmm your right doubting Thomas's would like evidence, Id like to see ( I have another thread here Im trying to determine that very question) but still have to say evidence is still not necessarily believed. People know smoking can kill them but still smoke. But aside from that, miracles. Some say they stopped with the close of the new testament.

Ive ran it over my head and asked your question myself why stop? But maybe they havent, maybe we just cant recoginze them, one reason is theres alot of fakes out there. ANd people are amazed so easily. You should hear them at work about Chris Angel, Blaine etc. I try to expain they are only talented but its deaf ears. Maybe I should try to learn the tricks myself and amaze and mystify myself and say I hoodwinked them.

No offense, but a miracle you don't notice is a pretty terrible miracle. Ignoring a real miracle would be impossible. God should just come down and rebuild the WTC in 5 seconds.

No one on Earth can replicate the parting of the Red Sea or the plagues of Eygpt. So I don't think frauds are ruining God's plans.

I do hear of healings but havent cataloged the ones that are beyond explaination. So theres no record I know of to look at.

The divine cures ALWAYS go undocumented. Dubious.

Just heal a severed limb on national TV and record it from 15 different angles and make sure Randi is there. I'd imagine amputees are pretty well documented.

Another thing I thought of is in the bible it speaks of I think 100 yrs of silence, I think its between old and new. I have no theology to back this idea up but perhaps its that again? Thus why no miracles.

When was the 100 years? At the start of the industrial revolution?

If the bible is true and there is a antichrist coming up (which really is one of many along the years) but apparentely hes gonna be big in miracles and wow the crowd. They will be impressed. Im hoping the skeptics are gonna be saying but look we can do that too! But I wonder if the crowd will listen? Perhaps thats why miracles are low key now cause its gonna be big later. Christ does say that the anti christ will even fool the elect if that is possible (which means christians) we christian or not, so terribly want to be impressed, look at celibrity. Thats what Christ was up against, thats the points He was trying to get through thick heads. No razzle dazzle just the basics, love one another, but its not flashy.

Don't worry. If the anti christ does come along and performs miracles, I suspect this forum would be the last to worship him.

[CardZeus]

err...
Yes I have have heard of the strong nuclear force.

I'll pass your comment on to Jack Chick.


OK so you've heard of it but you obviously don't understand it or else you'd be aware that it's the reason the nucleus doesn't fly apart - no miracle there then...

[LostAngeles]

OK so you've heard of it but you obviously don't understand it or else you'd be aware that it's the reason the nucleus doesn't fly apart - no miracle there then...

I'm pretty sure her original comment was in jest, hence the reference to Jack Chick.

But then, I got my hopes up about KK and they were dashed. Pity since she really does nothing but quote others. If she has a thought in her head that didn't come whole and directly from someone else, I'd be surprised.

[CardZeus]

I'm pretty sure her original comment was in jest, hence the reference to Jack Chick.

But then, I got my hopes up about KK and they were dashed. Pity since she really does nothing but quote others. If she has a thought in her head that didn't come whole and directly from someone else, I'd be surprised.

I have to confess my ignorance here and admit I've never heard of Jack Chick

[kurious_kathy]

I have to confess I didn't really understand this post, but re. the quote above KK, at what point do Christians start to get the message that they will never get what is promised and start to focus on living in the here and now?
Maybe it's because the here and now leaves much to be desired.

Even phsycologists talk to their patients about delayed gratification, what's up with that?

[KingMerv00]

I have to confess my ignorance here and admit I've never heard of Jack Chick

Never heard of Jack Chick? Lucky bastard.

He is a fundementalist cartoonist. Here is some of the dreck he puts out.

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

He is also the original source of my avatar.

ETA: Here's a classic. http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

[KelvinG]

I have to confess my ignorance here and admit I've never heard of Jack Chick

Just type Jack Chick into google.

Enjoy.

eta: or I could have posted a link like KingMerv.

[LostAngeles]

I have to confess my ignorance here and admit I've never heard of Jack Chick

OH

Prepare for the WTF:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

Classics:

Lil' Susy & Ms. Henn:http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1051/1051_01.asp
About the Jews: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp
Evolution:http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
TEH GAY: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052_01.asp
Satan's Vengence on Grandma:http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0099/0099_01.asp
How to Get to Heaven:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0041/0041_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp
My single favorite character, Officer Awesome God:http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1020/1020_01.asp
And the ever-popular one about D&D: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

Don't thank me....

[grayman]

About the Jews: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp

Odd that the nations that rejected the Jews fell into hard times similar to what the Baha'is claim for the nations that rejected Baha'u'llah. There seems to be a reoccurring theme in this religious stuff.

[RandFan]

Maybe it's because the here and now leaves much to be desired. I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel that way some times. However, sometimes the here and now is heaven. I'd hate to throw my life away on a delusion.

Even phsycologists talk to their patients about delayed gratification, what's up with that? I seriously doubt they are talking about delaying gratification until you die. I honestly don't know but it seems that a meaningful and gratifying life requires effort and not simply living in the here and now. Sometimes we have to wait until the appropriate time when we have sufficient resources and or we are matured or any number of reasons. I can't possibly see how that has anything whatsoever to do with an after life.

Go to work, pay your bills, meet your responsibilities first. Then you can enjoy the evening watching TV or go play on the weekend or when you go on vacation. Life will be ever so more gratifying that way. If you seek gratification first you might night not have a place to live.

[Kitty Chan]

No offense, but a miracle you don't notice is a pretty terrible miracle. Ignoring a real miracle would be impossible. God should just come down and rebuild the WTC in 5 seconds.

No one on Earth can replicate the parting of the Red Sea or the plagues of Eygpt. So I don't think frauds are ruining God's plans.

yea you have a point there a miracle should be noticed. I was thinking if I had a miracle and it wasnt covered on the 6 o clock news you wouldnt know. But if it was a real miracle it would be impossible not to notice. Im not sure if rebuilding the WTC would be something God would do. I say that because Jesus didnt necessarily heal everyone He forgave sins as well. I cant think of a thing restored was more people. I dont know.

Your right about no one cramping Gods style, but people are learning to trust in the sensational, and wonderful that would be more of the problem.

The divine cures ALWAYS go undocumented. Dubious.

Just heal a severed limb on national TV and record it from 15 different angles and make sure Randi is there. I'd imagine amputees are pretty well documented.

I was watching a thing on Benny Hinn whom Im not sure I trust, and Benny was asked why people dont "keep" their healing, he started answering and the interviewer cut him offf and went to their own ramblings about why. I wanted to see what he said, it was annoying. I knew the interviewers views already. But every now and then I hear about a healing and the person has had a doc look at it x ray or whatever. But those dont seem to make the news. Id like to see test it out, bring on Randi, if its God it will stand. And if its not then it wont, I have no problem with that. (thats why Im questioning my friend in the other thread)

When was the 100 years? At the start of the industrial revolution?

If youre being funny then fine :-) but no Id think somewhere around after John died. Truthfully Id have to think about it, its just a thought. Then again Ive heard it said that miracles died with the aposatles. But then theres those things Ive heard along the yrs. I guess I have to start cataloging them or something. I remember hearing a sound of rushing wind in a church up northern Canada, it was weird for sure. There is no shortage of things not explained out there (and I not talking ufos or the like)

Don't worry. If the anti christ does come along and performs miracles, I suspect this forum would be the last to worship him.

Of that I hope and count on :-)

[Foster Zygote]

Way way way off topic.

Jesus was a carpenter. Did he ever build anything?

Did you ever see the Kids In The Hall skit about that? Dave Foley as the academic type announces that archaeologists have found some of Jesus' carpentry handy work and shows off all this really badly made, asymmetrical furniture. "Clearly he wasn't a very good carpenter" he says. Then he implies that he pretty much had to be the savior as his options were clearly limited.

Steven

[The Atheist]

Just to return to the OP, I think there's a blindingly obvious answer to the question.

In days when the Earth was flat and the sun and stars orbited around it, it was pretty easy to convince the unbelievably gullible public that any old toasted sandwich or blanket from Turin could be seen as a "miracle".

As time and science progressed, the punters began to doubt some of the closet miracles being pulled and miraculousness went into a sharp decline.

Given that the christians' feeble attempts to have ID recognised as anything other than bull manure has failed miserably*, they needed to come up with something REALLY convincing. What could be more convincing than a god you CANNOT meet, have a beer with, or have him (?) show one a miracle or two?

It all goes to show that deep down, even christians realise that the whole god and christ deal is a load of fetid dingos kidneys.

*It's not something which can be argued with christians since belief in gods require belief of commonsense, but it is fun to ask ID proponents what's so intelligent about designing a universe with hundreds of billions of stars just to place intelligent life on one minute corner of it.

[Kitty Chan]

Just to return to the OP, I think there's a blindingly obvious answer to the question.

In days when the Earth was flat and the sun and stars orbited around it, it was pretty easy to convince the unbelievably gullible public that any old toasted sandwich or blanket from Turin could be seen as a "miracle".


In the old days the public was gullible, whats changed? Granted we know some more things, but nothing is new under the sun. People still think as you say, in fact now is the toasted sandwich. At least back then it was the more dramatic, healings, raising from dead, etc.

When it comes to belief, those way back were more in touch than those today, that do look for the cheeze sandwich design. They didnt look for it in biblical times, just these later times. It just means people are getting desparate to be wowed.

Its actually biblical, thats what the antichrist bit is all about, someone whos gonna wow the crowd and impress and recieve all the adoration and want to be treated like god. (theres been a few already, but they werent worldwide celebritys)

This is why looking for this evidence alone is not a real good idea its only part of the picture.

[Foster Zygote]

In the old days the public was gullible, whats changed? Granted we know some more things, but nothing is new under the sun. People still think as you say, in fact now is the toasted sandwich. At least back then it was the more dramatic, healings, raising from dead, etc.

What about the faith healers of today? They "heal" people all the time and many think the healings are genuine miracles. Some faith healers have even claimed to raise people from the dead. They can provide no proof yet thousands still believe them. Shouldn't we consider the possibility that the miracle workers (there were many of them too, and I don't mean just the ones in the Bible) achievements were exaggerated in the retelling?

Steven

[slingblade]

The "free will" thing has me totally bugged.

God doesn't reveal himself anymore, because if we knew he was real, we'd have no choice but to believe in him, and free will would be negated.

If you don't believe in the God you can't see, you will go to hell for all eternity when you die, and be tormented unbearably, without ceasing.

The fact that the choice offered is believe/reward, disbelief/torment strikes me as at least attempting to negate free will. I mean, what sort of choice is that, if you really believe it? "Hmmm, torture or bliss, torture or bliss.....you know, I just can't decide!" :rolleyes:

So, if you can see God, it's no longer a matter of belief. Belief is dead; he's obviously real. If God did reveal himself, would there still be people who would refuse to worship him?

There probably would, even if we can't believe anyone would be that obtuse.

Still, I go back to the parent/Heavenly Father analogy. What kind of parent would set up a system wherein he expected his kids to love and obey him, even though he made himself so scarce that his kids never saw him, and never heard from him? I'd tell the bassturd to go [rule 8] himself, or else show up once in a while and act as if he knew my name, if only for birthdays and Christmas. Heh.

[Kitty Chan]

What about the faith healers of today? They "heal" people all the time and many think the healings are genuine miracles. Some faith healers have even claimed to raise people from the dead. They can provide no proof yet thousands still believe them. Shouldn't we consider the possibility that the miracle workers (there were many of them too, and I don't mean just the ones in the Bible) achievements were exaggerated in the retelling?

Steven

see my post before the last, 2 ago? umm look back :-) re Benny Hinn. I havent heard of from the dead, Id still like a list of some sort like I said earlier.


As for exaggerating, there is a difference between say today and biblical times. Then people werent so much about if God or gods exist it was which one or which ones.

Those that saw the events were on both sides of belief, the "talk" of the events was much different than today. If there was disagreeance on a event, all the players were still there to talk about it. I dont know how to explain it just now, Id have to look up exactly what I read. But the naysayers had ample opportunity to speak up and did, but discussing it rather than denying it happened.

Today there is the same, God, gods, one two three or many. Except now there is a no god choice of belief. Im thinking and could be wrong but that started with Darwin?

[RandFan]

Those that saw the events were on both sides of belief, the "talk" of the events was much different than today. If there was disagreeance on a event, all the players were still there to talk about it. I dont know how to explain it just now, Id have to look up exactly what I read. But the naysayers had ample opportunity to speak up and did, but discussing it rather than denying it happened.

Today there is the same, God, gods, one two three or many. Except now there is a no god choice of belief. Im thinking and could be wrong but that started with Darwin? Could you clarify? What do you mean by no good choice? What does darwin have to do with anything?

[Kitty Chan]

Could you clarify? What do you mean by no good choice? What does darwin have to do with anything?

Except now-a-days there is a "no god choice" of belief, instead of believing

in God, gods, one two three or many gods.

Im thinking and could be wrong but that started with Darwin? Darwin would get the credit for "no god" I think. I imagine there were others but I gotta think Darwin was the grandaddy.



:-) is that better, sides ya had a typo on the good / god choice. I will admit I can see why you did. :-)

[RandFan]

Im thinking and could be wrong but that started with Darwin? Darwin would get the credit for "no god" I think. I imagine there were others but I gotta think Darwin was the grandaddy.Thanks Kitty,

Actually "no god" goes back some time. Please see History of atheism (http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/history.html). Also, I only today learned about a wonderful book, Doubt (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060097957/qid=1128115895/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-9389192-4477440?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) by Jennifer Michael Hecht (http://www.jennifermichaelhecht.com/) which, as I understand based on interviews and reviews, gives a wonderful context for the questioning of various religious dogmas and the existence of God.

As to Darwin and his contributions which I personally think are quite significant see Darwin made it easy to become an intellectually fulfilled atheist (http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Darwin_made_it_easy_to_become_an_intellectually_fu lfilled_atheist).

[The Atheist]

As RandFan has quite rightly pointed out, atheism goes back a lot further than Darwin.

As a counter to the eastern philosophy mentioned in History of Atheism, here are a couple of early European opinions, from around 500BC - "The universal cosmic process was not created by any god or man; it forever was, is, and forever will be, an Everliving Fire." [Heraclitus of Ephesus]; and - "Everything has a natural explanation. The moon is not a god but a great rock and the sun a hot rock." [Anaxagorus] Given that these are very early opinions which have survived through millennia, it is fairly likely that people questioned the relevance of gods long before this as well.

From the minds of these early philosophers to today's atheists, mortal man has long been able to say no to god.

Unfortunately, god is the easiest thing in the world to sell - infinite life after death in the arms of one's family and/or loved ones. Much better than the atheists' creed of get buried, rot away and never be heard from or seen again.

Even more unfortunately, intellect alone is not enough to see through the thinly disguised misogyny and bigotry of most organsied religions and many otherwise sane, intelligent people pray at/for and tithe to their church weekly.

Darwin, I feel, would have been most excited at trying to figure why erstwhile secular and well-developed countries such as USA still have ridiculously high belief in gods, but not fairies and goblins.

[Ossai]

Kitty Chan
see my post before the last, 2 ago? umm look back :-) re Benny Hinn. I havent heard of from the dead, Id still like a list of some sort like I said earlier. Benny Hinn has already been debunked. Relying on him for evidence of supernatural healing is like relying on a lead weight as a flotation device.

[Kitty Chan]

Unfortunately, god is the easiest thing in the world to sell - infinite life after death in the arms of one's family and/or loved ones. Much better than the atheists' creed of get buried, rot away and never be heard from or seen again.

Thanks RandFan and Atheist, I may have to look that up Im going on vacation sometime this week when I can break away from the office. I think Darwin would have been the most celebrity, but I was sure he couldnt have been the first, now I know.

Well, it is a better life as you describe over buried and forgotten. But even such one is still forgotten they only live in memories of us no matter their belief. Apparentely the only one that doesnt forget is God ;-) but ah well.

However I dont think God is a easy sell other wise everyone would be on the boat, and they are not. Problem is following God takes this sacrifice of yourself that most are not willing to do, to take care of another over themselves, watch out for the poor and hungry and realise they may not be the bestest thing that hit ole mother earth.

Now to be sure some do these things and dont believe, but thats fine. Thats the strange part, all God wanted us to do was take care of one another and bring as much of that in the arms of loved ones you speak of to here, to start to lets call it practice heaven, bring it to earth. Doing "good" for someone is just a glimpse of what it could be and anyone is capable of it belief or not. (blessings are not just for those who kneel, luckily - U2) :-)

You think it would be a easy sell, but not everyone wants that. They have their own gain in mind and thats it.

[Kitty Chan]

Kitty Chan
Benny Hinn has already been debunked. Relying on him for evidence of supernatural healing is like relying on a lead weight as a flotation device.

Hi Ossai! Spriitually he creeps me out. I just would have like to hear why he thinks people "lose" their healings. A friend gave me a book of his and I looked at it forever before I threw it out. I guess I should have peeked but I couldnt get any interest.

This whole area healings, visions, toasted marys, spiritual winds ( I will try later to see if I can find that Id really love opionions on it. Its sounds very strange, but so did David Blaine until I shook my head and thought about it. :-) anyway its all in the undecided section for me, youd be happy to know my skepticism still runs. See theres hope eh? ;-)

[RandFan]

However I dont think God is a easy sell other wise everyone would be on the boat, and they are not. Problem is following God takes this sacrifice of yourself that most are not willing to do, to take care of another over themselves, watch out for the poor and hungry and realise they may not be the bestest thing that hit ole mother earth.
Hi Kitty, you are light years ahead of kathy in the tact department.

I'm not so sure God isn't an easy sell. There aren't many atheists.

FWIW, most atheists I know are charitable and decent people. Atheists have helped me out when I was down on my luck. One of my closest friends is a therapist who provides an awful lot of her time pro bono. She's also an atheist.

Please be careful with your assumptions.

[Kitty Chan]

Well I try Rand Fan, after 800 + posts Id better be catching onto something. Actually its some deeper thinking of what God was actually after thats getting my thoughts going again. I know its contradictive to what you all think but the part of christianity I enjoy is the stretching your comfy zone.

I will confess some of the challanges come from my obsession with U2, if one listens there is definate challanges that one can respond to. Or not and just rock out :-)

As for the healings etc. I think after summer Im gonna try to find a example of something and see how it stands up.

And back to the easy sell, maybe initially but the long haul when the actual commitment breaks in where there is more than cute fluffy sayings and feel good music, tends to lose some. Sorta like a marriage, people get married thinking its easy then realise there is give and take and they are not up for it.

[Foster Zygote]

You think it would be a easy sell, but not everyone wants that. They have their own gain in mind and thats it.
I must protest your characterization of people who have rejected Christianity as doing so for selfish reasons. I've read enough of your posts now to be convinced that you are a sincerely good person with no intention of offending so I hope that you will consider how the above statement could be taken as insulting, not just to atheists, but to members of every other religion on Earth. As RandFan has already pointed out many atheists are actually quite altruistic and kind. As an example see Tricky's post about the lady loading groceries in the rain. Personally, I can assure you that my adoption of atheism did not stem from a perception that Christianity was too much effort or from any sort of selfishness. I had a strong belief in doing right by others when I was a Christian and I've retained that compassion after becoming an atheist. And I certainly don't think that I'm the "bestest thing that hit ol' Mother Earth". In fact I don't even believe that my species is the favorite pet of the greatest being in the universe.

Steven

[Foster Zygote]

Sorta like a marriage, people get married thinking its easy then realise there is give and take and they are not up for it.

I can relate to the marriage analogy. I've known my wife for 17 years, we've been married for 11 years. I never thought I could love someone as much or more than her until the birth of our son 17 months ago. I understand the give and take of marriage and so does my wife. This mutual give and take is what helps us along. Every human has some selfishness but in trying to meet each others needs and communicating we are able to find a balance in which we are both fulfilled.

Back to the analogy: I realized that there was no give and take, no communication in my relationship with God. I could get those things from other Christians but my "marriage" to Christianity was like being married to an imaginary friend. I could pray, but I couldn't distinguish this from an inner dialog or from introspection. I realized that all the answers to my questions were coming not from God, but from other mere mortal humans. I realized that the world as it exists is indistinguishable from a world in which God doesn't exist.

Steven

[Kitty Chan]

I must protest your characterization of people who have rejected Christianity as doing so for selfish reasons.
Steven

Im sorry you have thought that. When I was speaking to RandFan I guess I had in mind the "mob" the average joe out there. And thinking about that easy sell and how people jump on bandwagons easily. There is a line I love in Gladiator when the sister says to the brother about controlling the mob.

Those looking for a easy sell would probably rather go for selfish gain rather than giving of themselves. I dont see frankly anyone on this site in that catagory. :-)

[Kitty Chan]

I can relate to the marriage analogy.

Back to the analogy: I realized that there was no give and take, no communication in my relationship with God. I could get those things from other Christians but my "marriage" to Christianity was like being married to an imaginary friend. I could pray, but I couldn't distinguish this from an inner dialog or from introspection.
Steven

Just to finish this comment, Im quite happy you are happy its great, Im 26 yrs myself.

Marriage in christianity is a good example, its how God describes it all. I think parenting helps me understand God as well, to see how your child progresses, is quite a adventure through life.

I did have the same not hearing problem and still do at times. Maybe it was the lack of usual church upbringing and taking it to heart to treat God as a friend. Im not always nice to my friends, but my friends do stick it out. So thats where Im at. At this point Im done yelling.

[djshortcake]

People wonder why miracles don't happen anymore and why we are now expected to simply have faith without evidence. God seems distant and cool to most of us. That is how I always felt growing up, in a Christian home (christianity is hereditary right?) I don't know why the miracles are different now than they were in the bible, but I do know they happen. Here is my story and it may even help to answer a few other questions about God and why He simply doesn’t make much sense sometimes. I wrote this to a friend on myspace and thought I just do a little cut and paste.:)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I miss God. I've always heard of this time...when He seems to turn up missing in our spiritual lives at times of need. But somehow this knowledge doesn't seem to make it any easier. Although if I didn't have some understanding, I'd be so confused right now. I was snooping around a religious/philosophical forum on the internet. So many people go through this period and just give up. One person who is now an atheist said this: "I realized that the world as it exists is indistinguishable from a world in which God doesn't exist."

I wish I knew more about this period of distance. Do I wait it out? I pray and read the bible just the same. But there are no clear responses or distinguishable conversation like before. The honeymoon is over and now it's real.

On November 23, 2007, I finally gave God All of myself (not just the bad parts). And finally, it all made sense. I could see things I'd never seen before. I saw myself for who I was (not a terribly pretty picture either). And then, I saw the transformation take place. I was becoming the person I'd always wanted to be. The moment I was willing to let go of it all, it was given back in abundance.

But now, it feels like I'm doing something wrong...and He doesn't want to talk to me anymore. That's the hardest part about it all. I just miss Him. I care about all the things/problems I'm dealing with and want answers to...but not nearly as much as this...At least this feeling of forsakeness is better than the feeling of nothingness that proceeded it. For I know this acute feeling of forsakeness is the entire reason for this all...to KNOW...not feel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The transformation that I experienced was the greatest miracle there is. I struggled for years to change myself. And within a matter of weeks, I was a different person. A life changed.

One of the most powerful tools Satan uses against us is to make us feel God has forsaken us, especially in our times of need. But God never leaves us, even though it sure feels like it sometimes. And it feels like it will never end too. But what would happen to a marriage based on feelings? It goes against our very grain to not rely on how we feel. Especially when it comes to God. For that reason, God steps away at times, to stretch our faith...so we will know...not feel.

And yet, even knowing all that, and after everything God has done for me and answered my many prayers clearly and distinctly, at times I find myself doubting His love for me. . . Do not underestimate the enemy, his strategies are many. And it is often not ourselves we are fighting against.

Here is another thing I have learned about faith (for those of you still reading:)). Faith must always be in the present tense. Here is a paragraph from "Beyond Ourselves" by Catherine Marshall. This book has answered so many questions I didn't even know I had.

"It is obvious that were we to insist on the "proof first, then faith", order in our daily lives, organized life as we know it, would come to a screeching halt. And since life together among men is possible only by faith, as we act our trust in other people, it should not seem odd that the same law applies to our life with God."

What Marshall meant by faith in others is like when you get on a plane, you do not know the captain or the people who serviced the plane, and when you eat out, you trust a chef to make food that won't make you sick. But really, there is no proof that those situations will turn out in your favor. The new testament makes it clear that in the spiritual realm, when for some reason or other we refuse to act by faith, all activity stops just as completely as it does in the secular realm.

I truly hope this entry helps.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The xian response would probably be John 12:36-38
Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

ie God & JC have already given us a shed-load of signs and wonders and STILL we don't believe. What's the point of him giving any more? Have faith in what has already been revealed.

A crock o' sh1te in my opinionWell for starters, if there was a real god, it would know that myths from 2,000 years ago are not credible today. So just what proof has the Christian god given anyone alive today?

Oh, I forgot, he passes out "inner feelings" and lets "your heart know him". :rolleyes:

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think DNA is pretty miraculous.And for that matter, the Universe is just fantastic!

[Skeptic Ginger]

One theist explanation for this comes from Rv 22:18:

which some take to mean that this was the end of all divine revelation, including miracles and such.

Of course, this interpretation relies heavily on the belief that "these things" and "this book" refers to the Bible, which did not exist at the time Revelation was written...
Of course if you are Mormon, you just have to write new Bible books whenever you need a new law like polygamy. And if you need to let blacks into the priesthood (or whatever they call their clergy), you just need your leader to have a revelation.

Oral Roberts gets messages from God whenever the till gets a tad low.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nice cut-and-paste job (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/faithful.htm), k_k. Anything original to contribute?Dear me, another liar for Jesus busted?

[Polaris]

That's not true. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life!

Go sign up for this message board, you'll find them to be much more agreeable company:

www.messageboard.tuckermax.com

[Polaris]

OK let's say miracles aren't the point. So what? Why use them for 4000 years and then stop suddenly? Besides, miracles would save many souls. People who like evidence would dearly appreciate it.

Heaven's full and God's a prick.

[bokonon]

People wonder why miracles don't happen anymore and why we are now expected to simply have faith without evidence. God seems distant and cool to most of us. That is how I always felt growing up, in a Christian home (christianity is hereditary right?) I don't know why the miracles are different now than they were in the bible, but I do know they happen. Here is my story and it may even help to answer a few other questions about God and why He simply doesn’t make much sense sometimes. I wrote this to a friend on myspace and thought I just do a little cut and paste.:)

I miss God. I've always heard of this time...when He seems to turn up missing in our spiritual lives at times of need. But somehow this knowledge doesn't seem to make it any easier. Although if I didn't have some understanding, I'd be so confused right now. I was snooping around a religious/philosophical forum on the internet. So many people go through this period and just give up. One person who is now an atheist said this: "I realized that the world as it exists is indistinguishable from a world in which God doesn't exist."

I wish I knew more about this period of distance. Do I wait it out? I pray and read the bible just the same. But there are no clear responses or distinguishable conversation like before. The honeymoon is over and now it's real.

On November 23, 2007, I finally gave God All of myself (not just the bad parts). And finally, it all made sense. I could see things I'd never seen before. I saw myself for who I was (not a terribly pretty picture either). And then, I saw the transformation take place. I was becoming the person I'd always wanted to be. The moment I was willing to let go of it all, it was given back in abundance.

But now, it feels like I'm doing something wrong...and He doesn't want to talk to me anymore. That's the hardest part about it all. I just miss Him. I care about all the things/problems I'm dealing with and want answers to...but not nearly as much as this...At least this feeling of forsakeness is better than the feeling of nothingness that proceeded it. For I know this acute feeling of forsakeness is the entire reason for this all...to KNOW...not feel.

The transformation that I experienced was the greatest miracle there is. I struggled for years to change myself. And within a matter of weeks, I was a different person. A life changed.

One of the most powerful tools Satan uses against us is to make us feel God has forsaken us, especially in our times of need. But God never leaves us, even though it sure feels like it sometimes. And it feels like it will never end too. But what would happen to a marriage based on feelings? It goes against our very grain to not rely on how we feel. Especially when it comes to God. For that reason, God steps away at times, to stretch our faith...so we will know...not feel.

And yet, even knowing all that, and after everything God has done for me and answered my many prayers clearly and distinctly, at times I find myself doubting His love for me. . . Do not underestimate the enemy, his strategies are many. And it is often not ourselves we are fighting against.

Here is another thing I have learned about faith (for those of you still reading:)). Faith must always be in the present tense. Here is a paragraph from "Beyond Ourselves" by Catherine Marshall. This book has answered so many questions I didn't even know I had.

"It is obvious that were we to insist on the "proof first, then faith", order in our daily lives, organized life as we know it, would come to a screeching halt. And since life together among men is possible only by faith, as we act our trust in other people, it should not seem odd that the same law applies to our life with God."

What Marshall meant by faith in others is like when you get on a plane, you do not know the captain or the people who serviced the plane, and when you eat out, you trust a chef to make food that won't make you sick. But really, there is no proof that those situations will turn out in your favor. The new testament makes it clear that in the spiritual realm, when for some reason or other we refuse to act by faith, all activity stops just as completely as it does in the secular realm.

I truly hope this entry helps.

One thing that doesn't help is the string of dashes that screws up the formatting and makes it necessary to scroll back and forth to read the words.

The other thing is that the thoughts expressed by the words are just empty platitudes.

[XBoxWarrior]

Well, now, after reading all 3 pages of that nonsense.......

I am "convinced" that I too shall die.

Next topic? for twenty pages?

Mayday? anyone........

at least it occupied my brain for 27 minutes.

[djshortcake]

As long as you expect and look for concrete evidence that God is who He says He is (loving and merciful) before believing even the smallest amount, you will never find what you are looking for, which is, the true meaning of this life. There were many amazing miracles in the bible and yet most still did not believe. That is because absolute skeptism was just as rampant then as now. It is good to be skeptical, where would we be if nothing was ever questioned. But there comes a point where being too skeptical is a reality, and, more harm than good is accomplished. We all have freedom of choice, so therefore, the evidence can be looked at however you like. If your main objective is truth, you will find it. But I don't think that is what is being sought after on this thread.

[godless dave]

Miracles always happen where the people who are supposed to believe in them can't see them - in another part of the cave; in a far away country; in the past.

[halofish2000]

I doubt miracles would save many souls today KingMerv. It didn't help in the OT. The Israelites continued to refuse worshipping other gods. Sacrificing them to Molech and even the wisest man ,Solomon built many altars to them. Heck, look how quick they turned away when Moses was guiding them through the wilderness. He was so aggravated with these people that he asked God to kill him if he loved him.

[bokonon]

As long as you expect and look for concrete evidence that God is who He says He is (loving and merciful) before believing even the smallest amount, you will never find what you are looking for, which is, the true meaning of this life.
I'm not looking for God. Based on all the evidence I've seen, the God who is presented in the Bible is an invention of bronze-age men. The idea continues to fill a useful role as sock-puppet for those who want to control others, and a balm to those who are grieving, but I'm willing to grieve and don't covet control.

There were many amazing miracles in the bible and yet most still did not believe. That is because absolute skeptism was just as rampant then as now.
Or maybe the amazing miracles were embellished in the retelling, and weren't actually as amazing as what's been recorded.

If your main objective is truth, you will find it. But I don't think that is what is being sought after on this thread.
I don't think you're seriously looking for it. You acknowledge that there is precious little evidence of God in your life, and attempt to explain the lack by inventing another imaginary being who actively (and effectively!) seeks to conceal "the almighty." The almighty, who is presumed to be loving and merciful, and powerful enough to pick up the phone and offer a few words of encouragement at the very least, if only that mean old Satan didn't always cause him to get a busy signal.

[Beerina]

God hides himself because he wants us to have faith? Must be a recent thing...


Thank you!

[Dark Jaguar]

You are welcome Duke Nukem. Forgot about this thread...

Shortcake, I've heard all of that before, but it all hinges on the idea that god is actually real, which once again just goes back to faith. Further, there's no reason to think that this being is "always with us". I've "felt" all those emotions before, but it was all my own invention, and ones I can still summon at any time. I don't mean to diminish what you say but it's all pretty hollow if the only thing one can point to as evidence for any of it is just an emotional response.

[Faithkills]

That's not true. There are many scientists today coming to faith in Christ. I have heard many say they finally realized that DNA had to come from somewhere. God is the designer and giver of all life!

And there are many former theists finding their brains.

Anyway you can't have it both ways. If the fact that scientists are more athiest than the general population is not an argument in favor of atheism, (and it's not despite it's popularity as a straw man among theists here) then the fact that a few lose their minds temporarily doesn't argue for religion either.

[billydkid]

Funny, that's the same approach the Flying Spagetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn take. That is my problem with agnosticism in the way the term is generally used. It's used as way to say you have an open mind about the various widely accepted religions and tends to give them a credence they don't deserve. No one says they are agnostic about the Flying Spagetti Monster - that would be absurd, right? But somehow it's open minded to be agnostic about the Hebrew God, for example. The stupidity in this is obvious.

[billydkid]

double post. please, find it in hearts to forgive me!

[djshortcake]

[QUOTE=

Shortcake, I've heard all of that before, but it all hinges on the idea that god is actually real, which once again just goes back to faith. Further, there's no reason to think that this being is "always with us". I've "felt" all those emotions before, but it was all my own invention, and ones I can still summon at any time. I don't mean to diminish what you say but it's all pretty hollow if the only thing one can point to as evidence for any of it is just an emotional response.[/QUOTE]

It would be pretty neat if people could provide themselves with complete feelings of joy and peace. But somehow those emotions tend to be difficult to manufacture, especially in times of difficulty. And yet, they are there for myself and many others. Sometimes God will require certain things from me, such as my will in exchange for His. This is neccessary for growth. But everytime I see that His will is so much better than what I'd had in mind. He has blessed me in so many ways according to His will. These blessings include feelings, but are not limited to them, so therefore, I do have more evidence than simply an emotional response. You say you have experienced what I have, and yet you are still searching for more. I long to know God more deeply than I do, just like when you meet someone fascinating, but my life is now complete, lacking nothing. This is a far cry from what it was before.

If you're looking for proof beyond questioning, I'm sorry, but you won't find it. That would violated our freedom of choice. Just like no one can really believe the sky is pink. God doesn't desire that kind of follower. It would detract from what really is...That's a kinda vague, so maybe this will make more sense.

The irresistible and the indisputable are two weapons God's very nature forbids Him to use. Merely to override the human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless...We are to be one with God, but yet, ourselves: merely to cancel us, or assimiate us, would not do. C.S. Lewis, paraphrased

[billydkid]

If you're looking for proof beyond questioning, I'm sorry, but you won't find it. That would violated our freedom of choice. Just like no one can really believe the sky is pink. God doesn't desire that kind of follower. It would detract from what really is...That's a kinda vague, so maybe this will make more sense.

I am not following. The choice would be to obey God and his laws, not to decide whether he exists or not. I gather from your post that we are supposed to deduce that God exists from his works. The problem with that is that his works not suggest God in any particular sense of the word. You could argue that because things exist, some entity must have created them, but that means nothing and suggests nothing about the nature or character of that creator. If you hold that anything that exist must have a creator - well, there is the obvious, who created the creator, but beyond that, even if you suppose there is a creator, for all you know he could created the universe and then perished. The only reasonable argument a theist could possibly make is that we can deduce God exists from his works - the universe. But there is nothing in the universe that suggests there has to be a God in any meaningful sense of the world and certainly there is absolutely nothing that suggests that any particular God exists - not your's not the God's of the Greeks or those of the Hindus. There is something incredibly parochial and infantile in any notion of God I have ever encountered.

[juniper_ann]

In the old days the public was gullible, whats changed?

I think that a clue to that question lies in Matthew 13:53-58, especially verse 57
“But Jesus said to them, ‘Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.’”

Television and rapid transit make the whole world our home town. Science makes the universe our house. The god of the gaps keeps getting smaller.

…nothing is new under the sun.

Of course, there is that. People still want to be wowed. They still want to be special. They want to be rich. They want to be healed. They want a lot of things that reality can’t give them, but con men (or their own delusions) can.

I know its contradictive to what you all think but the part of christianity I enjoy is the stretching your comfy zone.

Sure. Some Christians are like this, and some are not. Some atheists are like this, and some are not.

And back to the easy sell, maybe initially but the long haul when the actual commitment breaks in where there is more than cute fluffy sayings and feel good music, tends to lose some. Sorta like a marriage, people get married thinking its easy then realise there is give and take and they are not up for it.

I’ve known people who left or changed religions for reasons that had a lot more to do with their comfort than their ethics or the evidence. But that’s not why I’m an atheist. The hardest thing I ever had to do was admit that the universe does not arrange itself according to my preferences, and no evidence for the existence of God means that there is probably no God. Most systems of ethics will lead to sacrifices if followed rigorously.

As long as you expect and look for concrete evidence that God is who He says He is (loving and merciful) before believing even the smallest amount, you will never find what you are looking for, which is, the true meaning of this life.

Looking for evidence would be enough for a just god. A merciful god would just give us the evidence.

If your main objective is truth, you will find it.

I have. :)

[Elizabeth I]

If you're looking for proof beyond questioning, I'm sorry, but you won't find it. That would violated our freedom of choice.

But God didn't mind violating freedom of choice for Adam and Eve, or Cain and Abel, or Moses, or Noah, or Elijah, or Ezekiel, or David, or Daniel, or Jonah, or Job, or Joshua, or Abraham, or Mary, or the shepherds, or the apostles?

Does that really make sense to you?

[Beerina]

Hank gets an "F". He has not accurately stated the scientific position, his conclusions do not logically follow his premises, and he doesn't know the difference between a "logical demonstration" and a "just so story".

He even fails to address his primary issue of "Who made God?" He simply asserts the universe must have been created, then presumes that, since the creator being created would lead to an infinite chain of creators, that therefore this process stops with the god who created this universe.

"Awesome job, Hank! Can you pass the gravy and then the peas and pearl onions?"