Ragging believers- A source of glee

[Whomp]

Why is it that so many here seem to take such delight in ridiculing believers? Christians seem to be especially beloved targets.

I understand that christianity is prevalent here in the US, and they can be annoying when they evangelize. It seems to me the A-Theists (I'm channeling here) tend to be much more stident than the believers.

With all the wonderful religions out there, christianity seems fairly benign.

So, enlighten me!

Whomp!

[Dancing David]

Cuz it's so easy, I mean do you see any dead people getting up and walking around.

Must be nice to live someplace where the Xians are benign, seems to me they are always trying to insert thier religious agenda into all our lives.

My biggest gripe is the way it reinforces domestic violence, many women who are beaten are told to submit to thier husbands. Ooops.


Peace

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Whomp
Why is it that so many here seem to take such delight in ridiculing believers? Christians seem to be especially beloved targets.

I understand that christianity is prevalent here in the US, and they can be annoying when they evangelize. It seems to me the A-Theists (I'm channeling here) tend to be much more stident than the believers.

With all the wonderful religions out there, christianity seems fairly benign.

So, enlighten me!

Whomp! Example?

P.S. It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be as much ridicule over in the Science forum...

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by Whomp

With all the wonderful religions out there, christianity seems fairly benign.


Whomp!

Benign huh? Try cracking a history book - or moving to Texas.

Barkhorn.

[Whomp]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x


Benign huh? Try cracking a history book - or moving to Texas.

Barkhorn.

Ooohh ... a palpable hit sir! What I meant to say is the evangelizing of Christians is not as annoying as some others IMO.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Whomp

What I meant to say is the evangelizing of Christians is not as annoying as some others IMO. Who do you find more annoying than evangelizing Christians? Personally, I tend to use Christians as examples of theists in general because they have been my primary experience with theism.

[Whomp]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Who do you find more annoying than evangelizing Christians? Personally, I tend to use Christians as examples of theists in general because they have been my primary experience with theism.

Wow, Jehova's witnesses have always been a large pain in my posterior. It seems that mormons also flood my town on a regular basis. Both these groups will knock on the door of my home, and with an amazing level of persistance try to work thier way inside so they can tell me about thier beliefs.

I've never had a christian do this. I'm not one to be rude, so the witnesses and Mormons keep coming back, even after I tell them "No Thanks".

Just 2 examples

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Whomp


Ooohh ... a palpable hit sir! What I meant to say is the evangelizing of Christians is not as annoying as some others IMO.


I knowwwww.. what you mean......

http://www.absolutesportsworld.com/wtc/tnimg/DPI004.JPG


Of course, a few hundred years ago the story was quite different..

The inquisition and the crusades really got on my nerves..

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Whomp

I understand that christianity is prevalent here in the US, and they can be annoying when they evangelize. It seems to me the A-Theists (I'm channeling here) tend to be much more stident than the believers.

Knock! Knock!
I'm your friendly neighborhood atheist, would you like a copy of the Watchtower?

When's the last time this happened to you?


I'll let you in on a little secret: our non-God gives us bonus points towards non-eternal redemption if we save more non-souls from non-damnation.

[Dancing David]

Joe's Witness and Mormons are Xians, so there , nyah,nyah,nyah

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Whomp

I've never had a christian do this. I'm not one to be rude, so the witnesses and Mormons keep coming back, even after I tell them "No Thanks".Now, see. Jahovah's Witnesses and Mormons consider themselves Christians. As would I, since they are self-proclaimed followers of Jesus Christ. And yes, they are annoying.

Jahovah's Witnesses on Jesus's Reserection (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2001/3/15/article_01.htm)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (http://www.lds.org/). See? "Jesus Christ" is even in their name.

[Whomp]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Joe's Witness and Mormons are Xians, so there , nyah,nyah,nyah

Hmm... guess I never considered them Christians because all of my (non JH $ mormon) Christian freinds seem to think otherwise.

But hey, I've been wrong soo much I'm getting used to it.

[Whomp]

Speaking of which, did you know you can backpedal at upwards of 25 MPH if you work at it?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Whomp


Hmm... guess I never considered them Christians because all of my (non JH $ mormon) Christian freinds seem to think otherwise.

But hey, I've been wrong soo much I'm getting used to it.
Question: do you consider Catholics to be Christians?

[rustypouch]

To answer the original question, I think there are several reasons why christians get mocked more than other religions.

Firstly, many Christian beliefs are simply so easy to refute, but the passion with which they defend these 2000+ year old myths can be a source of great amusement. For example, most of the time when I debate with a christian, their answers come down to: because that is the way it is; without using any evidence to back this up.

Second, there is the hope, although mostly vain, that the christians may begin to question their beliefs and think with reason.

But the most important reason, in my opinion, is how they try to force their views on others. I think the bashing is a reaction to this. There are daily T.V. shows(at least here in the great white north) promoting christ and trying to convert people. I have christians coming to my door and telling me that I'm going to hell because I don't believe, but that it's not too late to be saved. I have never experienced this with any other religious group. I also think that the belief that christions hold, that they are right, leads to an air of superiority and self-rightiousness which many non-christians find annoying.

[Skeptical Greg]

How does the saying go, that is something like:

" I'll stop laughing when you stop telling funny stories.."

[Yahzi]

Whomp

Unfortunately, I cannot find it, but if you had read Foodbunny's post on growing up in Texas, you would not ask such a question.

I have started numerous threads about the Catholic Church behaving badly - not just individual priests misbehaving, but institutional misbehaviour. For instance, demanding that a nine-year old rape victim carry her child to term.

The evolution wars - where Christians attack science for historical philosophical reasons they are utterly unaware of - is also reason enough. You do understand that they cannot stop at evolution - that if they succeed in rolling back evolution, they must continue step by step to roll back all scientific knowledge.

The sheer hypocrisy of claiming that God is both good and the custodian of Hell. The idea that my neighbor knows for a fact that I will suffer eternal torment in Hell, and is ok with that.

Other religions are absurd, but few are as powerful in the Western world, or as hypocritical.

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by Womp

Speaking of which, did you know you can backpedal at upwards of 25 MPH if you work at it?
I'd like to applaud your recognition of this as an important skill.

Scientific studies of intelligence have frequently featured rats in mazes. The ability to traverse a complex maze depends heavily on being able (and willing) to back up and try another path. I have found this ability largely absent in the Christians I have had contact with (at least far as theology is concerned). Come at them with all the reason and evidence in the world, but they won't budge an inch. It is the challenge this presents that makes them such desireable targets.

[blackadder65738]

Off the top of my head I can think of many reasons these people must be stopped:

The belief (shared by the Neocons in the current adminstration) that Israel must never make peace with the Palestinians, so Israel can get attacked by the rest of the nations in the world, hit the Armageddon switch, and Jesus will come back...

The b-b-b-billions of wasted money and resources that go into this mythology every year that might have helped some poor bastard somewhere get three squares a day...

Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Paul Crouch, Jim Jones, Bob Jones, Ralph Reed (this list never ends)...

The constant assault on actual education, from challenging the teaching of evolution, to the attempt to get school vouchers so they can kick the slats out from under the public school system and make it collapse...

I cant' go on, my blood pressure is going up.

[SortingItAllOut]

Originally posted by Whomp
Why is it that so many here seem to take such delight in ridiculing believers? Christians seem to be especially beloved targets.

I understand that christianity is prevalent here in the US, and they can be annoying when they evangelize. It seems to me the A-Theists (I'm channeling here) tend to be much more stident than the believers.

With all the wonderful religions out there, christianity seems fairly benign.

So, enlighten me!

Whomp!

Hello Whomp,

I suspect that the reasons are many. A few come to mind:

1. Public policy is affected (and effected!) by Christians, the officials they elect, the judges they appoint, and through their ability to organize. Christians have their agenda, as do other groups, and they believe that their agenda is the right agenda for their communities, counties and cities, states and nation. But other folks who do not subscribe to the beliefs held by Christians often feel (rightly so) that their lives are affected by the beliefs of others. Pick your hot button issue: abortion, prayer in schools, school vouchers, science curiculum in schools, homosexuality - Christians, especially conservative ones, generally have strongly-held opinions on these issues and, through their considerable lobbying power, they can influence the direction the nation takes.

2. Particularly "evangelical" Christians (Baptists come to mind), JW's, and Mormons believe there is a Biblical mandate to spread the "good news" to non-believers. Their tactics aren't often received very well by the folks they encounter. The idea of going up to a home and just knocking on the door in an attempt to "witness" is perceived by many folks as just downright rude and annoying. If I were to try to "witness" to others, it would probably be more effective IMHO to develop a genuine relationship with folks rather than just banging on doors and passing out literature. It is this boldness and sureness that they are right, that their belief system is the right one and that all others are wrong that causes many folks to react negatively. And, quite frankly, whenever someone claims X and I hold the opinion that X is wrong, I want to try to figure out why she believes this and to let her know my reasons for holding my opinions.

3. Being that the predominate religions and denominations in the Western world are under the "Christian" umbrella - meaning that they hold at least some of the same beliefs, it follows that discussions about matters of religion, faith, and belief will generally be focussed on Christianity. Think about this - who hasn't seen the "John 3:16" sign at a televised (American) football game at least once in his life? Like it or not, Christianity is influential and receives much press. When was the last time you saw a sign in the endzone that had a reference to Dianetics or the Koran? I haven't, unless the Koran has some hidden, Bible-code like message about ABC or CBS.

This forum is a place where each of us can write what is on our minds, discuss our opinions/beliefs/gripes and encourage a dialogue on these topics. Christianity wouldn't be the predominate topic here if it weren't so widespread and influential.

Just my thoughts.

Take care,
Sort:)

[gentlehorse]

Whomp:
Why is it that so many here seem to take such delight in ridiculing believers? Christians seem to be especially beloved targets.
blackadder65738:
Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Paul Crouch, Jim Jones, Bob Jones, Ralph Reed (this list never ends)...

That about sums it up, IMO. We have a considerable number of high-profile, self-proclaimed Christians out there, preying on the fears and weaknesses of others in order to become extremely wealthy. It's disgusting. These, and others like them, live in the lap of luxury while they accept donations from folks on fixed incomes, always encouraging them to dig deeper. Folks like these represent the whole, or a significant portion of, Christianity in the minds of many, making it an obvious, easy target.

[Whomp]

Interesting.
Lots of good points. I'm still learning. I am not a Christian, but I don't see my friends who are as the spreaders of hate and discontent in the world. They are simply folks who have a deep personal belief.

We argue all the time about "religion", but we never stoop to ridicule.
Diogenes asked me way back at the begining of this thread for examples of this behavior. I honestly can't come up with one right now. It's more of a feeling I've gotten in the tone of the posts here.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Whomp

We argue all the time about "religion", but we never stoop to ridicule.
Diogenes asked me way back at the begining of this thread for examples of this behavior. I honestly can't come up with one right now. It's more of a feeling I've gotten in the tone of the posts here.
Well, we're in the minority of the general population, and it's one of the last minorities it's acceptable to hate. If yo udig around you could find remarks by G.H.W. Bush indicating his surprise tha tatheists could be citizens, or Joe Lieberman saying he doesn't think a person can be moral without being religious, etc. Then there are the Fundies who equate atheism with devil worship. Go figure. But these people actually exist.

Also, we take some cr_p right here on the JREF board. Ask about Fr_ko sometime if you have the courage. People like that give theism a bad name.

We value critical thinking. Many theists do not. They believe their emotional and "spiritual" states somehow trump rational thought. We do not agree.

[SquishyDave]

I think I will insert an Australian perspective into this discussion, our politicians are never openly christian (just what the hell is anti-family anyway? Those whacky U.S. politicians), we don't have anyone on TV spouting drivel for hours in an attempt to bleed people of their money, so we share Whomps view.

We find most christians harmless and innocuous most of the time, JWs and mormons, we view as different. Everyone except JWs and mormons hates them with a firey passion. Their constant assaults on our homes never impresses anyone so we do take great glee in mocking them.

Actually my older brother got some JW's a beauty by pointing out the passage in the bible where Jesus kills a fig tree just because it has no fruit out of season, and they didn't have an answer for that, they apparently had never seen that story before.

But on the other hand, christianity is by far the most common religion in the west and so by showing the whackiness in that religion, we affect the most people and have the greatest chance of making some of them rethink a few things.

[Whomp]

I started this thread because this forum seems to focus on minutia, and I was looking for some broader opinions.

I appreciate all the feedback. I can't see working real hard to try and dissuade my christan friends, even though they are the scourge of the earth.:p

BTW, SD I love your tag line.
If you don't care where you are, you aren't lost.

That was always my motto on my long backpacking trips.

[SquishyDave]

Thanks Whomp :)

I agree with
Originally posted by Whomp
I can't see working real hard to try and dissuade my christan friends
I was raised christian, and see no reason to try to stop my mother being one, she is happy, it brings her comfort and she has never, ever tried to convert anyone to her way of thinking. So the old live and let live really works a lot of the time. I do try to disuade her from believing the crazier things that are out there, but that's a different issue.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Whomp
Why is it that so many here seem to take such delight in ridiculing believers? Christians seem to be especially beloved targets.


Christianity/Judaism/Muslims all believe their mythic stories are history! The eastern religions and Hindus don't believe that. They see their stories for what they are - stories describing god's powers manifesting themselves through nature.

The three hairball religions mentioned above want to make us learn their 'history' in school. They want us to live by their 'history' in our government. The moment the US becomes a theocracy - we are doomed.

[Yahzi]

Whomp
I can't see working real hard to try and dissuade my christan friends
If you read Foodbunny's post, you wouldn't be saying that.

Or maybe you would: some people are capable of the most astonishing indifference to other people's suffering.

[Whomp]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Whomp

If you read Foodbunny's post, you wouldn't be saying that.

Or maybe you would: some people are capable of the most astonishing indifference to other people's suffering.

Wow ... astonishing indifference no less. I'm supposed to read a post from a thread that even you can't find so I can understand how a few of my friends in East Poison Spider, New Mexico are causing suffering in the world.

'k Yahzi, I'll get right on that.

[SquishyDave]

Yahzi I think you are confusing Whomps unwillingness to annoy the crap out of his friends by constantly trying to convert them to atheism, with his condoning the bullsh*t that gets carried out in christianities name.

These are two different issues, if we all tried to bug our friends to convert to our non-religion, wouldn't we be as bad as mormons?

And the people carrying out the over the top nastiness in their religions name are the unconvertables anyway, the nice happy christians who I am sure most of have at least one of as a friend aren't the problem. They don't screw people over in an attempt to make them christians, otherwise I am sure they would not/could not have any athiest or non-christian friends.

[Voob]

I think Christianity is divided into Cathotic and Protestant, and the major Protestant religions don't think that Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons count as Protestants.

But literally they would be "Christian".

Then again, I could just be wrong.
(Too lazy to backpedal later.)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Whomp


Wow ... astonishing indifference no less. I'm supposed to read a post from a thread that even you can't find so I can understand how a few of my friends in East Poison Spider, New Mexico are causing suffering in the world.

'k Yahzi, I'll get right on that.
Found it for you: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7822&post=173142#post173142

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Question: do you consider Catholics to be Christians?
Repeat of an unanswered question. Whomp, do you and/or your Christian friends consider Catholics to be Christians?

I'll add a new question: are you familiar with the "True Sctosman" fallacy?

[Whomp]

A.P., Sorry, the question got lost in the flurry. Yes, I guess I do consider catholics to be christians.
We have a predominately hispanic population here, and they are traditionally catholic. I know they consider themselves christians.

Thanks for the link, I haven't read it yet.(Just woke up, need more coffee) Once I do, I'll post here again.

No, I've never heard of the true scotsman.

Whomp!

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Whomp

No, I've never heard of the true scotsman.

It's what your friends were doing. It goes something like this:

1) All Scotsmen wear kilts.

2) But what about MacDuff, he's a Scotsman, and he doesn't wear a kilt.

1) Aye, but he's not a true Scotsman!

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Whomp


Wow ... astonishing indifference no less. I'm supposed to read a post from a thread that even you can't find so I can understand how a few of my friends in East Poison Spider, New Mexico are causing suffering in the world.

'k Yahzi, I'll get right on that.
Her story is hardly unique.

But I concede that mere ignorance can sometimes appear appear to be indifference.

If you don't understand why Christianity is harmful, even the shallow simple-minded faith your friends practice, it's because you haven't been looking.

[Yahzi]

Arctic Penguin
I bow down before your ineffable searching powers.


:)

[Reaver]

Originally posted by SquishyDave
I think I will insert an Australian perspective into this discussion, our politicians are never openly christian (just what the hell is anti-family anyway? Those whacky U.S. politicians), we don't have anyone on TV spouting drivel for hours in an attempt to bleed people of their money, so we share Whomps view.

We actually do ahve these people but luckily they are relegated to the graveyard/infomercial type time slots, even on the community type TV stations.

Other than some minor politician tryong to stir up crap the only major thing I can think of is when JH wanted to add "God" into the preamble for the constitution, but that got laughed down pretty quickly IIRC.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

It's what your friends were doing. It goes something like this:

1) All Scotsmen wear kilts.

2) But what about MacDuff, he's a Scotsman, and he doesn't wear a kilt.

1) Aye, but he's not a true Scotsman!
I forget the actual name of the fallacy, Whomp, but essentially, it occurs when you force the term to dictate reality rather than letting reality dictate the term. In the above example, even though MacDuff is an example of a Scotsman who doesn't wear kilts, rather than adjust his definition ("All Scotsmen may or may not wear kilts") to fit with the reality of that, "1" redefines reality ("MacDuff isn't a Scotsman") to fit with his definition.

[SquishyDave]

Originally posted by Reaver


We actually do ahve these people but luckily they are relegated to the graveyard/infomercial type time slots, even on the community type TV stations.

Other than some minor politician tryong to stir up crap the only major thing I can think of is when JH wanted to add "God" into the preamble for the constitution, but that got laughed down pretty quickly IIRC.

Both excellent points, I didn't even know about the scam artists on the TV, but live and learn. I should have remembered the preamble. Good old big fat NO on that one.

[Whomp]

ArcticPengiun, thanks for the scots example
Upchurch, thanks for the explaination.
Yahzi, wow, it's not every day that you get to use the word ineffable.

There's lots of things for me to think about here. I'll be posting later on this evening, probably after the Randi show when the kiddos are in bed.