Rapture, where exactly in the Bible??

[Barkhorn1x]

I keep hearing about the Rapture - any day now, any day. But the interesting thing is that only Protestants seem to believe in this - no Catholics, no Eastern or Russian Orthodox, etc.

What gives? Where, specifically, in the bible do we find a description of the Rapture?

I am serious here - I really want to know.

Barkhorn.

[Upchurch]

I don't think it's mentioned by the name "Rapture" but the process itself is mentioned in Revelation 14:3-4

[Pahansiri]

billiefan2000 would tell you that the reason is they"Catholics, Eastern or Russian Orthodox, etc." are not "real" Christians.

Actually no where in the Christian Bible, OT or NT is the word Rapture or “end times” found.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x

What gives? Where, specifically, in the bible do we find a description of the Rapture?

I am serious here - I really want to know.


You have to jump back and forth between authors spanning hundreds and hundreds of years. And then pick and chose small snippets of passages to support the claim. (watch Van Impe)

The thing is - Jesus was supposed to come back within the lifetime of the people he preached to. He says that specifically. So when he didn't come back and the last of the generation died, those wascally Christians had to come up with something: RAPTURE! So they used the incomprehensible Revelations to back them up.

Unfortunately they had to leave Jesus' words in the bible because they were too well known. (For instance, Mark 13:30) So now we can all see the lie right there in front of us. After 2000 years he still hasn't returned.

Mention this to a Christian, and get a lawn chair and a beer - because you are going to see the some of the finest tap dancing available.

[SortingItAllOut]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x
I keep hearing about the Rapture - any day now, any day. But the interesting thing is that only Protestants seem to believe in this - no Catholics, no Eastern or Russian Orthodox, etc.

What gives? Where, specifically, in the bible do we find a description of the Rapture?

I am serious here - I really want to know.

Barkhorn.

The verses from the Bible (quoted here from the King James Version) are:

1 Thes 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


These are the ones quoted to support the notion of "The Rapture". There may be others, but these are the ones that I know about.

Take care,
Sort:)

[triadboy]

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut


The verses from the Bible (quoted here from the King James Version) are:

1 Thes 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


These are the ones quoted to support the notion of "The Rapture". There may be others, but these are the ones that I know about.

Take care,
Sort:)

And once again - these were supposed to predict him coming within the generation that he was a part of.

[gentlehorse]

Originally posted by triadboy


And once again - these were supposed to predict him coming within the generation that he was a part of.

I see how some might interpret Jesus to have been speaking to a future generation as opposed to the generation that he was a part of. I quickly snipped out some passages that might support such an interpretation:

Mark 13 :: King James Version

2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Proof? No. I can certainly see how some might interpret him to have been speaking to or of the generation of which he was a part, but I honestly can't say which is the case.

Here's a link for any who would care to read the entire chapter for the sake of context and perspective.

Click here. (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MARK+13&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

[gentlehorse]

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut


The verses from the Bible (quoted here from the King James Version) are:

1 Thes 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


These are the ones quoted to support the notion of "The Rapture". There may be others, but these are the ones that I know about.

Take care,
Sort:)

For what it's worth, here are a few more verses that I've heard folks use to support the notion of the rapture:

Matthew 24 :: King James Version

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

From here. (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)

[Beleth]

Originally posted by gentlehorse
I can certainly see how some might interpret him to have been speaking to or of the generation of which he was a part, but I honestly can't say which is the case.I think the quote you're looking for is this, from Matthew:
Originally posted by Matthew
24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away...

[gentlehorse]

Originally posted by Beleth
I think the quote you're looking for is this, from Matthew:


Thanks. The link I provided in the post you quoted contains verses saying much the same thing. The question I was attempting to address had to do with what was meant by "this generation". Was he addressing a future generation or his own? I don't know. I understand how folks could disagree over the meaning of these verses.

[Pahansiri]

I believe more telling quotes concerning if it is written to mean a very short time frame would be also in part found in Matthew but the following

"I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23)


"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." (Mark 9:1)

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30)

"So also, when you see these things happening: know that the kingdom of God is near. In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away all will have taken place." (Luke 21:31-32)

"For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have died. For the Lord himself ... will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

"I am coming soon! I am indeed coming soon!" (Revelation 22:12, 2O) The Gospel of Mark was written around the year 70, Matthew around 80, and Luke around 90.

Paul wrote l Thessalonians around 50. Revelation was written around 90. And I posted this on May 29 2003..l:p

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gentlehorse


I see how some might interpret Jesus to have been speaking to a future generation as opposed to the generation that he was a part of. I quickly snipped out some passages that might support such an interpretation:


Here he is speaking to people right in front of him:

9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

[CSSMariner]

The really amazing thing to me is that so many people base their lives on such ramblings and therein lies the trouble with Christianity, evangelism.:mad::confused:

[imagineNoReligion]

From what I have read, the "Rapture" originated from a Scottish woman called Margaret MacDonald from Port Glasgow in 1830.

http://pub16.ezboard.com/frealismfrm5.showMessage?topicID=582.topic (Scroll down and look for MAcdonald)

Quote: "Before Macdonald in 1830, the concept of a Rapture was not found in the Christian church (not in any church for that matter). That means that for some 1800 years there was no Rapture theory taught out of the Bible"

http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm

[triadboy]

Originally posted by CSSMariner
The really amazing thing to me is that so many people base their lives on such ramblings and therein lies the trouble with Christianity, evangelism.:mad::confused:

One tragic consequence is Mark 16:9 - 20 was added later. These are the passages that talk about drinking poison and handling snakes. There are uni-browed buffoons doing that right now to prove how much faith they have. That's sad

[imagineNoReligion]

Here's another link that describes the "Rapture" as being a rather recent idea. It also refutes the idea that the rapture has any basis in scripture. (and this is a Christian site)

Furthermore you can make just about any premise fit, by finding supporting passages in a book as large and contradictory as the bible, no matter how tenuous.

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/leftBehind.htm

[Crossbow]

Ah! Bible, Shmible!

Christians have never let a little thing like the written word of the Bible stop them from inventing new elements of the religion.

- Did Jesus ever renounce Judiasm? No.
- Did Jesus actually tell his followers to form a new religion? No.
- Does the Bible ever mention heaven and hell? Somewhat vaguely it does, hower it is not nearly as detailed as many Christians have made it out to be.
- Does the Bible ever mention Purgatory? No, but it is an important element of the Catholic faith.
and so on.

So this Rapture thing is just another extra car in the train.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by imagineNoReligion
Here's another link that describes the "Rapture" as being a rather recent idea. It also refutes the idea that the rapture has any basis in scripture. (and this is a Christian site)

Furthermore you can make just about any premise fit, by finding supporting passages in a book as large and contradictory as the bible, no matter how tenuous.

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/leftBehind.htm

Thanks for leaving that link. I am a Christian who has been questioning the whole *Rapture* theory and anything to do with endtimes. I am amazed to discover a whole lot of Christians who don't believe in the *Rapture* theory.

[imagineNoReligion]

Ruby, I posted a link to another christian site earlier, which charts the history of the rapture theory and also refutes the notion of the rapture.

Take a look

http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm

[billiefan2000]

What about Revelation 3:10

which proves there will be a Pre Trib Rapture.


also have you read:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

or:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
What about Revelation 3:10

which proves there will be a Pre Trib Rapture.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.Pre Trib Rapture?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Ruby


Thanks for leaving that link. I am a Christian who has been questioning the whole *Rapture* theory and anything to do with endtimes. I am amazed to discover a whole lot of Christians who don't believe in the *Rapture* theory.
I gather that most Christians don't believe in the Rapture as presented in the Left Behind series.

Here's what the Catholic Church thinks of the Rapture, for example:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

And, hey, it looks like the bishops have even found time to sound off about the Left Behind series:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/religion/cst-nws-left06.html

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut


The verses from the Bible (quoted here from the King James Version) are:

1 Thes 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


These are the ones quoted to support the notion of "The Rapture". There may be others, but these are the ones that I know about.

Take care,
Sort:)


But, if you're not Christian but still live a good and wholesome life, what then? Would they be comdemned to Hell forever & ever?

[uneasy]

Originally posted by ceo_esq

I gather that most Christians don't believe in the Rapture as presented in the Left Behind series.


Probably, but some people are actually forming religious views based on the books.

A relative of mine, a big fan of the books, once mentioned something about when the rapture happens. Her religion does not believe in the rapture, she went to 9 years of private schooling under this religion, she now teaches at a private school for this religion, but for some reason she now believes Left Behind instead.

She mentioned this at a family gathering, so I asked flat out when her religion started believing in the rapture. All anyone could do was laugh nervously.

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
billiefan2000 would tell you that the reason is they"Catholics, Eastern or Russian Orthodox, etc." are not "real" Christians.

Actually no where in the Christian Bible, OT or NT is the word Rapture or “end times” found.

I will answer your no rapture word is found in the bible question first:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

says:

Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture"

It amazes me that some folks write to me, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.

With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to “Catching Up Ready” to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things.

Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible.

also:

The Margaret MacDonald Origin

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.



No Secret Rapture

"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.

I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.

The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."

[jj]

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut


The verses from the Bible (quoted here from the King James Version) are:

1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Hm. does that mean that the believers will die?

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by imagineNoReligion
From what I have read, the "Rapture" originated from a Scottish woman called Margaret MacDonald from Port Glasgow in 1830.

http://pub16.ezboard.com/frealismfrm5.showMessage?topicID=582.topic (Scroll down and look for MAcdonald)

Quote: "Before Macdonald in 1830, the concept of a Rapture was not found in the Christian church (not in any church for that matter). That means that for some 1800 years there was no Rapture theory taught out of the Bible"

http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm


http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html


mentions:


The Margaret MacDonald Origin

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

[Leroy]

I see how some might interpret Jesus to have been speaking to a future generation as opposed to the generation that he was a part of.

In all the times I've read these scriptures I never once took them to mean that Jesus was going to return in their lifetime.


4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
The gospel was not close to being published (Preached from my bible) among all nations.

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

I always took this to be a message, not to those he spoke too at that time, but to those living in the last days.

I believe that the problem with scripture is that each person, church, or demonination inteprets it differentl.

[Temporal Renegade]

The question still remains:
When you're Taken Up, can I have your car?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
What about Revelation 3:10

which proves there will be a Pre Trib Rapture.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.Okay, so I finally figured out what "Pre Trib Rapture" means.

How in the world do you claim that this is in any way conclusive proof of a Pre Trib Rapture? Seems like an incredibly loose interpretation to me.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000


I will answer your no rapture word is found in the bible question first:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

says:

Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture"

It amazes me that some folks write to me, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.

With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to “Catching Up Ready” to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things.

Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible.

also:

The Margaret MacDonald Origin

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.



No Secret Rapture

"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.

I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.

The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."
billiefan2000 my friend you did not answer me, you posted the words of others, I do not read such post if I wish to conduct a mature respectful conversation with you I wish it with you, if I wish it with the people you posted I will contact them.. I don’t reads post from other people when speaking to someone unless it is part of the conversation. WE wish to here your thoughts.

[Pahansiri]

THE SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST, as to the Bible.



"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23)

They must be VERY slow runners 2000 years to cover such a small area?



"I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

Willard Scott has missed these people or they were lied to?

""Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." (Mark 9:1)

Willard Scott has missed these people or they were lied to?

""Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30) "




"So also, when you see these things happening: know that the kingdom of God is near. In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away all will have taken place." (Luke 21:31-32) "


""For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have died. For the Lord himself ... will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) "

The fact is this “event” was believed by these people as an event that would happen within a few years not 2000+.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Okay, so I finally figured out what "Pre Trib Rapture" means.

How in the world do you claim that this is in any way conclusive proof of a Pre Trib Rapture? Seems like an incredibly loose interpretation to me.

From a Baptist theologian who agrees with you:Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject. . . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it (The Word of Truth, 556–7).
...

Originally posted by Pahansiri
Actually no where in the Christian Bible, OT or NT is the word Rapture or “end times” found.

Well, not exactly. Apparently, the English term "Rapture" is derived from the Latin word rapiemur ("we will be caught up"), which appears in the Vulgate version of 1 Thess. 4:17.


(Source for both of the above: http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp)

[xrayecho]

It seems that in every one of these threads the first three or four posts present enough information to reach a conclusion one way or the other. Then it just goes on and on restating and re-ignoring what has already been said.

To paraphrase something I once read about "Arguing with a Quality Control Inspector." Arguing with a fundamentalist is like wrestling with a pig. You both get really dirty and after a while you realize the pig likes it."

[justsaygnosis]

And one more


http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0022.html

"In Luke 17:34-37 where is the one "taken" taken to?

By Rev. Roger Best

First let's look at the passage: "I tell you, on that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken, and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken, the other will be left. [Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."] And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered."

This passage is similar to the one in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:40-41) where Jesus uses a similar example. Both passages occur in the context of Christ teaching on his return to earth and the end of the age. In the Olivet Discourse the disciples ask the question, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3). In Luke 17:20 the Pharisees asked the question as to when the kingdom of God would come. Whereas His answers to the disciples' questions were often right to the point, Jesus would frequently not answer the Pharisees directly but rather give them something to ponder over in their hearts.

In both passages Jesus connects the idea of "one taken and another left" with a sign. In Luke 17:24 and 37 the sign is more vague and difficult for the Pharisees to understand because they didn't ask about a sign. In Matthew 24:27 Jesus is directly answering the disciples' query as to the sign of His coming (24:3): "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be." A comparison of these passages with Revelation 6:12-17 and Joel 2:31 show that this sign appears at the end of the age when Christ comes for the elect (the Rapture).

A careful examination of the Greek words used in Matthew 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-37 gives us additional information; a form of the Greek word paralambano is used. This word is made up of two words: para, which means "along side", and lambano, which means "to take". The word is used a number of times in the New Testament. For example, in Matthew 1:20 Joseph is told by an angel of the Lord, "do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife", and in John 14:3 where Jesus said to His disciples, "I will come again and receive you to Myself." It is plain to see that in these cases the word has the idea of intimacy where one is "received along side of" or "to ones self".

Finally, it is also important to notice that in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 Jesus uses the stories of Noah and Lot to illustrate the scenario of His coming (Matt. 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-29). Going back to Genesis 7 and 19 we find that both Noah and Lot were rescued by God out of harm to a place of safety. Noah and his family found safety in the ark before the devastation of the flood, and Lot was warned by angels to get out of Sodom and Gomorrah before judgment came upon the ungodly.

With all these factors in mind, it becomes clear that the "one taken" in Luke 17:34-37 is taken to safety before the "Day of the Lord" judgment is carried out on planet earth. The context of the passage, the Greek word, and the Old Testament illustrations all point to the fact that the one "that is taken" is taken in the rapture while the one "that is left" is left to experience the wrath of God."



Pardon the length. I couldn't decide what to cut out so I stuck it all in.

[SortingItAllOut]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade



But, if you're not Christian but still live a good and wholesome life, what then? Would they be comdemned to Hell forever & ever?

Hi TR,

Umm.. yes? No? Maybe? Probably not? Definitely? It depends?

I suspect that different Christians would have different answers. There are as many flavors of Christianity as there are Christians. It would be reasonable to think that most of them are wrong, perhaps all of them.

One of the strongly held beliefs of the evangelical Christians is that your goodness is not the deciding factor in whether you get to go to heaven or hell. Instead it is this notion of a "personal relationship" with God where you are "born again" and, by grace, allowed to enter heaven by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

This idea that the "goodness" of a person isn't the primary criterium for making the list, especially the notion that some piece of garbage can make some deathbed confession and get to go to heaven even though he is a terrible and vile individual, causes many folks to have issues with the notion of "salvation" and with Christianity. Many of us would want him to pay and to suffer for the torment he caused others. Take for instance the mother who drowns her own children and then has a "conversion" while in jail - that doesn't set well with most of us. The idea that she'd get to get to heaven along with someone's saintly grandmother is a hard thing to fathom.

Christianity is exceedingly complex, though its followers might say otherwise. The Bible has some "common sense" writings in it... but it also has passages that are confusing, apparently contradictory, and just plain puzzling.

Sorry for the digression.

Take care,
Sort:)

[Temporal Renegade]

You know, there's nothing anagnostic can't do if he doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not!
--Monty Python

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by ceo_esq


a Baptist theologian who agrees with you:Now, there is something I never thought I'd live to see. :eek:

[Gregor]

Leroy

How could you not read these as a second coming before 100 C.E. - unless you're hoping beyond hope that it was a typo?

Then explain 2 Peter - where the author is telling people - 'don't lose the faith. We know we promised a second coming, and it's really slow in getting here, but don't worry, it'll get here.'



Billifan2000
While it was a nice effort to post something of substance (rather than your usual troll for the rapture witness routine), you'll apologize when we call BS on your cut and paste job. Please cite any authority of a pre-MacDonald rapture.