Magnetic Mumbo Jumbo

[dogbite666]

Hi folks,

I've just posted a question on a woo forum about something called a 'MotoFlow'. Here's the web site all about it:

http://www.magnet-healing.co.uk/motoflow-fuel-economy.asp

Its another one of the magnet mumbo jumbo things which sell for lots of £££ and do absolutly nothing. I asked how this piece of apparatus works and heres the reply I got, I just had to share it with you! So, any ideas on how I should wind this guy up?

Arthur Harries

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: 'Motoflow' for fuel and emission savings Reply with quote

Hi dogbite

In answer to your question regarding what a 'Motoflow' does to your fuel the following is how it has been explained to me:

Hydrocarbon molecules are very complex, and a small change in the molecular structure can mean big changes in the end product. As an example the only difference between petrol and diesel is a few carbon atoms!

Fuel that has been subjected to the Motoflow magnetic field has benefited from electron movement, producing molecules that combine more efficiently with oxygen. This action allows for a quicker and more complete combustion, resulting in more energy being available earlier in the combustion stroke of the engine. An increase in power and torque and a reduction in pollutants are generally noticeable. The combustion chambers tend to remain ‘cleaner’, that is less carbon is deposited in the areas of combustion allowing gases to flow freely. A better combustion will give more power, but it is the driver’s foot that dictates whether the additional power is used to accelerate quicker or improve fuel consumption!

Modern engines are fuel injected and continually monitored electronically to optimise their performance. They are therefore considerably more efficient than engines built in 1991. However, that does not mean that they cannot benefit from Motoflow in the long term. Reduced pollutants result in an extended life of catalytic converters (expensive to replace) and the cleaner burn helps to extend the efficient life of the engine.

[dogbite666]

here's my reply:

Thanks Arthur,

I see, so the magnetic field actually changes the molecular structure of each hydrocarbon molecule???????

wow! that is amazing! how strong are the magnets in the motoflow? I am guessing they must be greater than 10 Tesla. A Magnetic Resonance Imaging machine has a magnet of about 5 Tesla and that sure doesn't change the structure of the molecules in your body, just makes them resonate at a higher frequency. To actually strip electrons off an atom you must have a hugh magnet of about 100 GigaTesla.

If magnets in the motoflow are small, maybe less than 0.1 Tesla then I don't see how they could effect the molecule in anyway, especially as the hydrocarbon molecule will pass through the motoflow's magentic field in a very short period of time!

Can you please explain exactly how the small magnets in the motoflow change the molecular structure?

Many thanks,

dogbite.

[Mojo]

Arthur Harries: "Hydrocarbon molecules are very complex, and a small change in the molecular structure can mean big changes in the end product. As an example the only difference between petrol and diesel is a few carbon atoms!"Many of the molecules that are necessary for Arthur to remain alive are considerably more complex, and their precise structures are vitally important. We're not just talking about their combustion properties here.

He'd better steer well clear of magnets! ;)

[dogbite666]

So long as the magnets are natural organic magents then he'll be ok.

[Cuddles]

Many of the molecules that are necessary for Arthur to remain alive are considerably more complex, and their precise structures are vitally important. We're not just talking about their combustion properties here.

He'd better steer well clear of magnets! ;)

Could this explain spontaneous combustion? Obviously people's electons were shifted into a more combustible state by standing too near magnets. Of the evil, inorganic type obviously.:eye-poppi

[Bronze Dog]

100 GigaTesla... Isn't that about frog-levitating strength?

[Cuddles]

Can you even get GigaTesla? We have superconducting magnets up to about 8T, but I don't think I've heard of anything much bigger than that.

[dogbite666]

The magnetic field of a pulsar is at about that order, hence it spews out jets of ionized particles which have been stripped of their electrons. Thats the kind of power you'd need to change the structure of a molecule. I don't think I could accomodate a pulsar under the hood of my car, nor do I believe it would improve the fuel efficency!

[Grundar]

You should ask them if it is unipolar or bipolar magnets :D

/Hans

[gfunkusarelius]

um, if it worked the way this guy claimed, wouldnt it just cause your pistons to ping and knock around violently as the combustion occured "quicker"?

[pgwenthold]

um, if it worked the way this guy claimed, wouldnt it just cause your pistons to ping and knock around violently as the combustion occured "quicker"?


Don't bring up facts, dude, it just confuses things.

But you are correct, of course. The combustion properties of fuel are exceedingly tuned to provide optimal performance (actually, it's a little bit of both - the design of internal combustion engines is also highly tuned to deal with the combustion properties of gasoline). If you mess up that balance, you can only get less optimal performance.

Of course, that is even assuming that the does anything at all, which it doesn't. You can't get anything that is much less responsive to magnets than the hydrocarbons of fuel. They are electronically as non-magnetic as they come. Shoot, they aren't even very polar, so there aren't even any rotational issues as with a moving dipole in a magnetic field.

[SPQR]

http://www.magnet-healing.co.uk/motoflow-fuel-economy.asp

:jaw-dropp

I had no idea how much magnetic crap there was for sale! I wonder how much money this website brings in.

[Cuddles]

Absolute genius. He actually says that it might do nothing whatsoever.

The Motoflow has the effect of removing any carbon build up and if your car was last tuned with a dirty combustion chamber, then as the engine gradually becomes cleaner then it will no longer become tuned for optimum performance. Likewise, if an engine is fitted with a Motoflow the fuel is being burned more efficiently and the tuner may increase the fuel/air ratio to compensate, thus negating any savings you would make

If you have an older car, or a high mileage car then the Motoflow may temporarily increase your MPG and emissions because the Motoflow begins to clean carbon deposits in the engine. After about 1000 miles you may wish to have the engine retuned to maximise the effects of a clean engine

So as far as I can tell, if you retune your engine it will be slightly more efficient.

I also get the feeling someone has seen "Return to the Forbidden Planet" too much.
The outstanding success of MotoflowT when compared to other IMI products is attributable to the unique Central Reverse Polarity magnetic field

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

:jaw-dropp

I had no idea how much magnetic crap there was for sale! I wonder how much money this website brings in.

I want a magnetic water bottle!

Bargain at £60....

[dogbite666]

Well Ive just been booted off the forum, they offered me the following link as evidence that Magnetic Therapy is valid.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/1450?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=static+magnets&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=329&issue=7480&resourcetype=HWCIT

It took me about 30 seconds to find the gaping hole in fact they rest their entrie claim on the this paper. See if you can find it quicker. I'll give you a clue, look in the Conclusion in the Abstract. Its only two lines long, read the second line. My guess is they read the first line and popped open the champagne!

[dogbite666]

I think I might start selling this crap myself. You don't even need magnets. How about if I started selling small pieces of Acrylic plastic saying they are charged by the power of crystalls or something, would that be a bad thing to do? I reckon the mark up would be phenomonal! If I had a discIaimer on the web site saying they do nothing at all do you think I could sleep at night? I mean if people are stupid enough to believe these things in the face of over whealming lack of evidence then surely they deserve to loose their money.

ahhhhh Im going to the dark side!!!!!!!!!!

[Mojo]

Hi folks,

I've just posted a question on a woo forum about something called a 'MotoFlow'. Here's the web site all about it:

http://www.magnet-healing.co.uk/motoflow-fuel-economy.asp

Its another one of the magnet mumbo jumbo things which sell for lots of £££ and do absolutly nothing. I asked how this piece of apparatus works and heres the reply I got, I just had to share it with you! So, any ideas on how I should wind this guy up? This device has been the subject of several ASA ajudications:

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?Adjudication_id=37807
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?Adjudication_id=37802
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?adjudication_id=33701

Each time they appear to have tried to rely on the same report from the Warren Spring lab. Each time the same flaws have been pointed out.

[Pete Tattum]

We have a stall flogging all that crap, here in Inverness. Apparently, wearing a magnet will enhance the flow of 'energies' to the brain???

It'll certainly enhance the flow of money from people's wallets!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Of course it may just be strong enough to attract any particulates in the fuel that are attractable and let things burn a little cleaner, well, until the fuel line clogs up at the point of the magnet.

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

There goofs are claiming this was tested and approved by a British Government agency, surely they're going to catch it in the neck if someone finds out? Shouldn't we notify the Dept of Transport and the Trading Standards people to go have a word with them concerning their advert for this piece of expensive nonsense?

[Mojo]

There goofs are claiming this was tested and approved by a British Government agency, surely they're going to catch it in the neck if someone finds out? Shouldn't we notify the Dept of Transport and the Trading Standards people to go have a word with them concerning their advert for this piece of expensive nonsense?Well, the ASA seem to pick up their print adverts if someone reports them, but they don't cover stuff being sold on websites.

I don't think the Dept of Transport would be concerned as long as a modification doesn't make vehicles unroadworthy (and I suspect that this device does nothing at all), so it would be down to Trading Standards. They aren't centralised so don't have a huge budget (each council has its own trading standards dept) and have to prove their case well enough to satisfy the criminal burden of proof to bring a successful prosecution.

I'm about to report an unrelated website to my local trading standards; I'll see how that goes.

[Mojo]

Incidentally, here's another one (http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?Adjudication_id=35188) caught by the ASA. At least this lot had an excuse. They said the subject of magnets brought out scepticism and antagonism in official organisations, because a testing regime that was appropriate for use with magnetic devices could not be created. :rolleyes:

[Skepiroth]

:jaw-dropp

I had no idea how much magnetic crap there was for sale! I wonder how much money this website brings in.


Most of the stuff out there on magnetics is utter crap... especially stuff about magnetism in matter. My capstone project required knowledge of magnetostatics and sifting through the BS I found performing online searches became a very real problem. Fun exercise: try to find information regarding equations which define the intensity of the magnetic field at any point above a chunk of magnetic matter whilst not going crazy from hearing about how magnets heal you, enhance your love life, etc....

[RSLancastr]

You gotta love the "Here's how it was explained to me" line!

It absolves him of guilt if it doesn't work, and it gives him an excuse for not being able to answer any tough follow-up questions.

[Mechbob]

As a former auto mechanic I will let you all in on a dastardly secret.
Magnets have been used in the automotive industry for the past 100 years!
Yes, that's right, and they are cleverly hidden so that the unsuspecting public can never find them.
Here's a few examples:
Most maunufacturers disguise the magnet to look like an oil drain plug!
Some are cleverly designed to fit inside fuel and oil filters under the pretense of trapping iron particles.
Several American companies actualy hid the fuel pump in the fuel tank, under the false impression that no one would find the magnet on the end of the fuel inlet!
Of course, knowing how incideous the public could be, some manufacturers went to the trouble of making fuel lines out of plastic. The excuse they always give is that this makes the fuel line non conductive to electric charges and thus fire proof. Of course, I know the real reason was to make after market magnets useless, thus continuing the auto manufacturers monoploy on magnet production.
,,,,,,, I want to warn the public, keep those fuel line magnets away from the incredibly powerful spinning magents of your car's alternator! ,,,,,,,,,, The results are akin to anti-matter coming into contact with peanut butter!

[Mechbob]

As a former auto mechanic I will let you all in on a dastardly secret.
Magnets have been used in the automotive industry for the past 100 years!
Yes, that's right, and they are cleverly hidden so that the unsuspecting public can never find them.
Here's a few examples:
Most maunufacturers disguise the magnet to look like an oil drain plug!
Some are cleverly designed to fit inside fuel and oil filters under the pretense of trapping iron particles.
Several American companies actualy hid the fuel pump in the fuel tank, under the false impression that no one would find the magnet on the end of the fuel inlet!
Of course, knowing how incideous the public could be, some manufacturers went to the trouble of making fuel lines out of plastic. The excuse they always give is that this makes the fuel line non conductive to electric charges and thus fire proof. Of course, I know the real reason was to make after market magnets useless, thus continuing the auto manufacturers monoploy on magnet production.
,,,,,,, I want to warn the public, keep those fuel line magnets away from the incredibly powerful spinning magents of your car's alternator! ,,,,,,,,,, The results are akin to anti-matter coming into contact with peanut butter!

[kevin]

:jaw-dropp

I had no idea how much magnetic crap there was for sale! I wonder how much money this website brings in.

when i wore out the inner linings of my shoes and wanted to buy some new ones it was difficult to find some without magnets in them.

[dogbite666]

The people that own this site:

http://www.ecohealth.ik.com/

Had some 'issues' with me asking probing questions about their products on the forum. If you go to the site and follow the 'Enquiry' link you can ask them all about how their products 'work'. I seriously suggest you all have go.

Dog.

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I don't think the Dept of Transport would be concerned as long as a modification doesn't make vehicles unroadworthy (and I suspect that this device does nothing at all), so it would be down to Trading Standards. They aren't centralised so don't have a huge budget (each council has its own trading standards dept) and have to prove their case well enough to satisfy the criminal burden of proof to bring a successful prosecution.
I have an acquaintance that works for the local trading standards team, I'll ask his opinion but I think he spends his days tracking down dodgy fireworks salesmen.

The point I'm making is that they are claiming a government agency has tested these things and know they work, which I have to believe is completely false. I'm not looking at it from the point of view of the agency worrying about car reliability, but from the view that they are claiming government approval. It would be like me putting up adverts claiming I was a government approved breast examiner, sanctioned by the NHS. Actually....

[Cuddles]

There appears to be no way to contact them without either purchasing one of their products or calling a premium rate line. Since they are just a distributor I have requested some information Ecoflow Plc. who actually produce the product. Unfortunately, Magnetic Healing have a disclaimer stating "All claims on this site are made by the site owner as an independent distributor and Ecoflow plc accepts no responsibility for the content of any such claims made in relation to Ecoflow plc, its products and/or the Ecoflow business opportunity" so I don't have any high hopes.

[Mojo]

The point I'm making is that they are claiming a government agency has tested these things and know they work, which I have to believe is completely false. I'm not looking at it from the point of view of the agency worrying about car reliability, but from the view that they are claiming government approval. It would be like me putting up adverts claiming I was a government approved breast examiner, sanctioned by the NHS. Actually....A problem here is that it appears that the govt agency in question, the Warren Spring environmental lab which was a DTI agency, seems to have been closed down in 1994, so it might be difficult to establish that the thing actually wasn't tested there. I wonder when they started making the claim about it being tested there.

[dogbite666]

I have an acquaintance that works for the local trading standards team, I'll ask his opinion but I think he spends his days tracking down dodgy fireworks salesmen.

The point I'm making is that they are claiming a government agency has tested these things and know they work, which I have to believe is completely false. I'm not looking at it from the point of view of the agency worrying about car reliability, but from the view that they are claiming government approval. It would be like me putting up adverts claiming I was a government approved breast examiner, sanctioned by the NHS. Actually....

It would be great if you could do that Kenny, no I dont mean examining breasts! I really want to get this company closed down so they stop selling their snake oil products. What is the protocol you have to go through to do this? I will try and contact Trading Standards but I've not had much joy with them before.

Anyone got any advice on this?

Dog.

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I tend only to see the guy when he's in the pub on a Friday night or at parties, or if we're off playing Airsoft on the same weekend. Next time I see him I'm going to collar him and check out how to go about this. I have no doubt there's going to be a slew of forms and rules, and the fact that this is internet based probably gets around 95% of them. I think if they arent actually causing harm then they'll be low on the list anyway, and if none of us have actually purchased any of this nonsense then we might also be on a sticky wicket. As I say I think the best bet would be the 'false government claim' angle rather than 'this tat doesn't work and costs a lot'.

[dogbite666]

I just sent the following email to a supplier of these snake oil products, what you think? Please feel free to send similar mail to this address:

nikki.pepper@ntlworld.com from http://www.magneticnikki.ik.com/

Hi Nikki,

I read your post in the thread I posted on Janey Lee Grace's forum about the Motoflow. You said;

"I seem to remember that they tested it for 10,000 miles on a Vauxhall Cavelier and concluded that more mpg, less emmissions and more torque."

I have looked at the test they did, there is a paper on the ecoflow site about it. In the experiment the do not mention that they used any controls in the trial, by that I mean they didn't even try to rule out bias by measuring the fuel efficency without the device fitted, nor did they blind the driver or observer so they didn't know when the device was or wasn't fitted.

In the November 2004 issue of the British Medical Journal there is a paper about a trial which was carried out to find if Magnet Therapy actually lived up to it's claim. In that conclulsion of that paper it clearly says;

"Pain from osteoarthritis of the hip and knee decreases when wearing magnetic bracelets. It is uncertain whether this response is due to specific or non-specific (placebo) effects."

Every one I ask who advocates or sells these devices has been unable to say how they work. Even Janey Lee Grace, who advocates the use of them in her book, doesn't know. As a scientist I can tell you that not only is there no evidence that these devices work but there is also no way they could possibly have the claimed effect of changing the molecular structure of the chemicals they are said to act upon.

I put it to you that you are selling devices for which there is no evidence that they work.

If you are so certain that the devices you are selling actually work above the placebo effect then I would like to invite you to take a challenge. If you can show beyond doubt that your devices do indeed work above placebo then you will win $1million. Please go to http://www.randi.org and fill out the application form. If you like I will help you to design a test protocol which will show whether these devices work or not. If you loose the challenge then by all moral standards you should cease to sell these products.

I am going to stick my neck out here and guess that your not going to take that challenge. Instead I think you will make a lot of lame excuses as to why you wont. That in it's self is confirmation that you know full well that these devices do not work and you are defrauding the general public. If that is the case, or you ignor my email, I will take it upon myself to ensure that Trading Standards are informed of your, and many others, fraudulent activity.

I look forward to hearing from you very soon.

John Hunsley. B.Sc M.Sc.