The Potential of the Spiritual

[coberst]

The Potential of the Spiritual

I suspect most people consider the dichotomy (two mutually exclusive entities) of mind/body is ‘real’. Body is a material entity and mind is a spiritual entity and these two entities are mutually exclusive.

Those who hold such views consider that this spiritual world is of a ‘heavenly’ substance, it is the substance of the gods or God. It is a marvelous reality unsoiled by materiality; it is a substance that is holy whereas material substance is soiled and often evil.

Let us say that in this spiritual world there is a specific reality called ‘honor’, and honor is a great and wonderful entity. Then let us suppose that someone is capable of reifying (to make into a material concrete entity) honor and to reify honor in the form of a golden colored paint.

Then suppose someone takes this golden colored paint and paints the concrete act of killing with this paint. These suppositions might help us understand how it is possible for an Islamic family to stone to death their own daughter and sister.

This is just one example of all of the things one might do with this paint and to any other heavenly substance in order to make some actions acceptable to people who would find such actions in a non dichotomy world to be impossible to accept.

[Marquis de Carabas]

It is possible to acknowledge the culture of honour without giving in to dualism.

[Apathia]

It is possible to acknowledge the culture of honour without giving in to dualism.

Yes!
Consider that seperating off the spiritual from the physical, the sacred from the profane, the holy from the ordinary, sets up opportunities for lots of absurdities of the sort mentioned by the OP. For example: valuing Life as an abstraction while slaughtering individual lives.

[drkitten]

Forum wierdness, ignore.

[drkitten]

I suspect most people consider the dichotomy (two mutually exclusive entities) of mind/body is ‘real’. Body is a material entity and mind is a spiritual entity and these two entities are mutually exclusive.

Those who hold such views consider that this spiritual world is of a ‘heavenly’ substance, it is the substance of the gods or God.

I'd want to see your demographics on this. It's not clear how this "spiritual world" is necessarily of a heavenly substance -- indeed, some of the strongest dualists are Buddhists, who specificall buy into the spiritual but deny the existence of gods. The same would apply to a modern Platonist.

Nor would the fact that "most people" are dualists state anything about whether or not dualism is accurate....

Basically -- questionable assertions of uncertain relevance as yet unsupported by the facts in evidence.




Let us say that in this spiritual world there is a specific reality called ‘honor’, and honor is a great and wonderful entity. Then let us suppose that someone is capable of reifying (to make into a material concrete entity) honor and to reify honor in the form of a golden colored paint.

You're, um,... assuming that the spiritual can be reified as the material? If your previous assertions were "questionable," I need to look up a stronger term for this particualr assumption....

Are you assuming that someone is using gold paint to represent honor? Or are you suggesting that the gold paint is honor in some transubstantiatory way?


Then suppose someone takes this golden colored paint and paints the concrete act of killing with this paint.

So you're using a material concrete entity to paint an abstraction. Sure, why not?



These suppositions might help us understand how it is possible for an Islamic family to stone to death their own daughter and sister.

Alternatively, one could dispense with the elaborate, clotted, and ill-conceived theoretical framework and simply try to undertstand it directly.

No dualism is needed. No reification is needed.

Some actions are good. Some are bad. No dualism is necessary to establish this, depending upon the basis on which you define good and bad. (E.g., preservation of society is "good" for some forms of evolutionary rationalist. Maximization of personal happiness is "good" for a hedonist. Maximization of society's happiness is "good" for a utilitarian.) Sometimes one is forced to choose between two apparently bad actions, in which case a rational moral agent will select the lesser.

In the case of an honor-bound culture such as (stereotypical) Islam, fallure to preserve one's honor is one bad thing. Failure to protect the life of one's wife and daughter is another -- but the lesser evil. Therefore, if honor demands it, one should stone one's family.

[JamesDillon]

I've been thinking about repainting my bathroom in Honor, maybe with an undertone of Sarcasm.

[drkitten]

I've been thinking about repainting my bathroom in Honor, maybe with an undertone of Sarcasm.

No, Sarcasm and Honor don't go well together at all.

I found, however, that Honor, with just a touch of Gullibility, really works. Gets people's attention, while at the same time being a very comfortable atmosphere to work in. Makes you feel like you can't do anything wrong....

[Foster Zygote]

The Potential of the Spiritual

I suspect most people consider the dichotomy (two mutually exclusive entities) of mind/body is ‘real’. Body is a material entity and mind is a spiritual entity and these two entities are mutually exclusive.

Those who hold such views consider that this spiritual world is of a ‘heavenly’ substance, it is the substance of the gods or God. It is a marvelous reality unsoiled by materiality; it is a substance that is holy whereas material substance is soiled and often evil.

Let us say that in this spiritual world there is a specific reality called ‘honor’, and honor is a great and wonderful entity. Then let us suppose that someone is capable of reifying (to make into a material concrete entity) honor and to reify honor in the form of a golden colored paint.

Then suppose someone takes this golden colored paint and paints the concrete act of killing with this paint. These suppositions might help us understand how it is possible for an Islamic family to stone to death their own daughter and sister.

This is just one example of all of the things one might do with this paint and to any other heavenly substance in order to make some actions acceptable to people who would find such actions in a non dichotomy world to be impossible to accept.

WTF?

[Foster Zygote]

I've been thinking about repainting my bathroom in Honor, maybe with an undertone of Sarcasm.

I find sinful colors to be more conducive to a good 40 minute dump in the morning.

Steven

[Kopji]

The Potential of the Spiritual

I suspect most people consider the dichotomy (two mutually exclusive entities) of mind/body is ‘real’. Body is a material entity and mind is a spiritual entity and these two entities are mutually exclusive.

Those who hold such views consider that this spiritual world is of a ‘heavenly’ substance, it is the substance of the gods or God. It is a marvelous reality unsoiled by materiality; it is a substance that is holy whereas material substance is soiled and often evil.

Let us say that in this spiritual world there is a specific reality called ‘honor’, and honor is a great and wonderful entity. Then let us suppose that someone is capable of reifying (to make into a material concrete entity) honor and to reify honor in the form of a golden colored paint.

Then suppose someone takes this golden colored paint and paints the concrete act of killing with this paint. These suppositions might help us understand how it is possible for an Islamic family to stone to death their own daughter and sister.

This is just one example of all of the things one might do with this paint and to any other heavenly substance in order to make some actions acceptable to people who would find such actions in a non dichotomy world to be impossible to accept.

Maybe it's all one thing, like a tapestry: 'mind' and 'body' are merely different textures of the same underlying thing. A naturalist 'heaven' then, could represent an over reaching harmony similar to that found in a patchwork quilt. To act with honor is to act in a way that binds individual character to service* of the greater tapestry. (* I might use the word 'nurture' here.)

A fundamental problem is that people visualize a 'perfect' tapestry as vastly different things. 'Honor killings' or 'terrorist acts' are perhaps examples. Holy or horrific depending on how you thing the tapestry really should look as a whole.

I do not really know the answer to this, except thinking that maybe we are better off without some of the structures that claim to know and guide us.

[l0rca]

This has so many philosophical holes in it you'd have to be an octopus to keep it from sinking.

The Potential of the Spiritual

I suspect most people consider the dichotomy (two mutually exclusive entities) of mind/body is ‘real’. Body is a material entity and mind is a spiritual entity and these two entities are mutually exclusive.


Yes, for most people who have a religion, and no philosophical ideas. There's a very simple and huge problem with detaching the mind and body, and it's no surprise that so many philosophers start their books attacking Descartes for this very thing. I'm not going to bother fighting semantics on what you could mean by "mutually exclusive," or why you quote "real," when you are the one trying to express meaning. Using tropes in core arguments is a horrible way to convey a point. Usuing metaphors is also a horrible way. You can either directly and clearly state what you think, or you're not worth arguing with.

Also, later on, you quote 'heavenly'. And what you mean by "It is a marvelous reality unsoiled by materiality," is either utterly ambiguous or you have no idea what we mean by material. And why anyone would use positive adjectives for their claims is beyond me. You're here to make a point, not talk about how marvelous it is.

[coberst]

Mercury

You make many statements with which I disagree but the one that is least enlightened is "Usuing metaphors is also a horrible way."

[Dancing David]

The Potential of the Spiritual

I suspect most people consider the dichotomy (two mutually exclusive entities) of mind/body is ‘real’. Body is a material entity and mind is a spiritual entity and these two entities are mutually exclusive.

Those who hold such views consider that this spiritual world is of a ‘heavenly’ substance, it is the substance of the gods or God. It is a marvelous reality unsoiled by materiality; it is a substance that is holy whereas material substance is soiled and often evil.

Let us say that in this spiritual world there is a specific reality called ‘honor’, and honor is a great and wonderful entity. Then let us suppose that someone is capable of reifying (to make into a material concrete entity) honor and to reify honor in the form of a golden colored paint.

Then suppose someone takes this golden colored paint and paints the concrete act of killing with this paint. These suppositions might help us understand how it is possible for an Islamic family to stone to death their own daughter and sister.

This is just one example of all of the things one might do with this paint and to any other heavenly substance in order to make some actions acceptable to people who would find such actions in a non dichotomy world to be impossible to accept.

Interesting if somwhat metaphorical take on the nature of dualism.

As a materialst , I would say that they are all the same and they are just using thier spiritual beliefs to justify thier choices. I think it all goes back to Zoroaster and others who insisted on deviding the world into good/evil.

But don't just pick on Islam, how about neo conservatives who destroy democracy and nations in the name of democracy and the free market?

[coberst]

David says--"But don't just pick on Islam, how about neo conservatives who destroy democracy and nations in the name of democracy and the free market?"

You are correct. Christians use marriage in the same way as Islam uses honor. And the greatest professionals at creating great frames to bamboozle is the Republican Party.