Loose Change - Part IV

[brumsen]

Someone needs to FOIA the radar tapes (...)Why does this matter? It ties into charges of a cover up.
(...)
I want to know: why is this info being covered up? Or, is there a place where this data is available to the public?
(...)I suspect a lot of this cover up stuff is "people covering their arses for fear of being the scapegoat." But it irks me that the story is only half told.

Wow, exactly my way of thinking. So, Darth Rotor, does that make you a CT (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1867581&postcount=22)too?

[realitybites]

Recall the school trip Dylan and friends touted...Here is "merc's" big find. Maybe someone here who speaks CT better than I can interpret as I can't figure out what he's trying to say.




from here: /http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11352
I thought they were going down there to blow this thing wide open. Ya' know... figure out that whole "what hit the Pentagon" question that nags them so.

Instead they come back with a story on one of the hijackers (dead/alive/merged identities) that's so convoluted, even the faithful flock are questioning whether it's as big of a deal as Merc says.

Grasping. Straws.

[nathanmcginty]

From

... When Jones defends the WTC airliner story, he cites soft evidence like videos, "many, many eyewitnesses," unverified flight data recorders, an alleged consensus of Scholars' (capital "S") in favor of airliners and calls for release of evidence (who but the government could object?). Jones says videos "clearly show the commercial jet liner." Doh! You mean the perps would fake a video and NOT show a jet liner? The question is, do the pixels reflect reality or is the jet liner image inserted?

Video is SOFT evidence? Hundreds of eyewitness reports all saying the same thing is soft evidence?

SmacOn, apply directly to the forehead...
SmacOn, apply directly to the forehead...
SmacOn, apply directly to the forehead...

Jones is the BYU prof, no? My favorite thing to mention about him is the scholarly paper he wrote on Jesus' trip to ancient america.

[Brainster]

Someone needs to FOIA the radar tapes from the LaGuardia and Newark Towers, likewise White Plains and Tito burrough.

Teterboro (http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/tetframe.HTM). Just correcting in case anybody wants to take up this challenge.;)

[Darth Rotor]

Teterboro (http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/tetframe.HTM). Just correcting in case anybody wants to take up this challenge.;)
Sorry for the boo boo, and thanks for the correction.

DR

[negativ]

And congrats on your banning today! Surprised you lasted so long. :cool:

I was surprised, too.

Fortunately, the other account I have over there (and my IP address at work) remains unaffected, so I can continue to enturbulate (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Enturbulate) at will, for now.:cool:

[Darth Rotor]

Wow, exactly my way of thinking. So, Darth Rotor, does that make you a CT (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1867581&postcount=22)too?
I guess you don't understand what I am talkling about, do you?

There are two problems with information release in any airplane crash.

One is the safety of flight, safety of operations problem: what can we learn from this wind shear crash to help not have more in the future? What can we learn from the "explosives in the cargo hold in Florida" crash that presents safer operations in the future? What can we learn about co pilots not putting the flaps down on take off at DFW to avoid screwing that up in the future? That information is often elicited from participants in "non attribution" mode, which means never for public release, with the explicit purpose of ensureing that, without fear of retribution, any and all human and material factors to a crash are open for investigation for acceptance or rejection as causal factors. The military does this, and this special handling is a matter of public law. It has been upheld by the courts countless times when mis hap investigations have been subpoena'd. JAG investigations, however, are open to FOIA. FAA and NTSB have similar, but not identical, rules governing their Safety investigations, versus their investigations regarding accountability and blame fixing. If FAA can show that American Airlines, or United Airlines, had garbage for security procedures, or had a disaster of a training program, or was negligent in maintenance procedures, those findings may be introduced in a civil case that results in punative damages in the event of a crash.

This leads to the second issue, liability. To avoid being held liable, reveal as little as possible so the lawyers attacking you can't use it.

Follow the Money, as it were, or follow the motivation to preserve money.

There are a complex series of regulation concerining the custody and applicability, ability to subpoena, and the ability to FOIA, an immense amount of detailed information related to airplane mishaps/crashes. Airlines are on the hook for hundreds of millions in liability claims, their insureres are as well, and any evidence that shows negligence or lack of due care not only costs the airline money up front, they may cost all air carriers more in fees in their pursuit of affordable underwriting from insurance carriers.

The government also, to include the FAA, and persons employed by the FAA, have a stake in not getting blamed: jobs can be lost, and suits filed against US gov't for negligence or gross error on the part of air traffic controllers. This hits government in the wallet, and hits cabinet level officers with the prospect of scandal, embarassment, or being canned.

The side cost, in millions, are the sometimes pointless and draconian regulations inflicted on operators that are bandaid fixes to solve simple problems . . . but I digress.

Nearly everyone involved in a mishap, or related to it, tends to go immediately into "cover your ass mode" to ensure they are not scape goated. This is human behavior.

This has nothing to do with planning a mishap on purpose, as is asserted by some of the C**T's, and has everything to do with an incomplete accounting being given.

The government's accounting of 9-11 is incomplete. There is no question about that. This incompleteness is hardly proof of complicity in teh four aircraft that were used as weapons against America, but it is an indication that people were covering up for errors in hopes to avoid being scapegoated in the biggest mess we'd had to date, as of 12 September 2001.

If the raw radar date is available, that jerk at Texas A & M would have to shut his cakehole, as would Dylan Assery, and a whole host of other morons.

DR

[DavidJames]

I thought they were going down there to blow this thing wide open.Breaking news, this may be it...

http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11448

I'm back and have some interesting news for you all.

THERE WAS A LARGE PLANE SEEN DIVING TOWARDS THE PENTAGON!

Of course merc is a CTer, so...Flyover anyone?

[JamesB]

This has nothing to do with planning a mishap on purpose, as is asserted by some of the C**T's, and has everything to do with an incomplete accounting being given.

The government's accounting of 9-11 is incomplete. There is no question about that. This incompleteness is hardly proof of complicity in teh four aircraft that were used as weapons against America, but it is an indication that people were covering up for errors in hopes to avoid being scapegoated in the biggest mess we'd had to date, as of 12 September 2001.

If the raw radar date is available, that jerk at Texas A & M would have to shut his cakehole, as would Dylan Assery, and a whole host of other morons.

DR

Unfortunately it wouldn't. There has been a huge amount of evidence released lately, with the Moussaoui trial and all. They have ignored it completely. Any evidence which contradicts them must be faked.

[Kent1]

Unfortunately it wouldn't. There has been a huge amount of evidence released lately, with the Moussaoui trial and all. They have ignored it completely. Any evidence which contradicts them must be faked.
I agree. They are completely unreasonable people.
These guys only interested in visual and physical evidence. And even that means very little.
Currently they believe there are 26+ faked videos of the impacts and an unfathomable amount of faked photos, testimonies and debris.

They also seem to believe the goverment has TOTAL lockdown upon the NY area, as no one caught the "real" footage on tape or video that shows a vacant spot in place of the "CG" planes.

Honestly I like to leave them alone and watch the in-fighting

[T.A.M.]

The whole Waleed Al-Shehri thing is just a pile of crap. The same guy they are talking about, that was interviewed said he didnt have a brother Wail, yet the guy the FBI IDed as Waleed Al-Shehri had a brother Wail, and if you look at their photos, it is clear they are related...

that beyond all the rest of the evidence.

Like the fact that the Moussaoui evidence has him taking a drivers test long after the alleged "alive" Al-Shehri says he had left the US for good.

[brumsen]

I guess you don't understand what I am talkling about, do you?
(...)
The government's accounting of 9-11 is incomplete. There is no question about that. This incompleteness is hardly proof of complicity in teh four aircraft that were used as weapons against America, but it is an indication that people were covering up for errors in hopes to avoid being scapegoated in the biggest mess we'd had to date, as of 12 September 2001.

If the raw radar date is available, that jerk at Texas A & M would have to shut his cakehole, as would Dylan Assery, and a whole host of other morons.
DR
On the contrary. I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm just a bit fed up with being pigeonholed as a CT.

[chipmunk stew]

Apparently JREF members "have back connections to paedophile promotion artists and CIA MKUltra torturers"...
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=18937#18937

:confused: WTF???

[chipmunk stew]

On the contrary. I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm just a bit fed up with being pigeonholed as a CT.
How about CS--Conspiracy Suspicionist?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Apparently JREF members "have back connections to paedophile promotion artists and CIA MKUltra torturers"...
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=18937#18937

:confused: WTF???

What seven-degrees link are they trying to make? And to whom?

[R.Mackey]

C'mon, guys, give brumsen the benefit of the doubt. He and I conversed on the subject of Gordon Ross's "papers" in the WTC collapses, and I ultimately found him to be quite reasonable.

Unlike the real CTs, some people who are "just asking questions" actually listen to the answers. Carry on.

[Darth Rotor]

On the contrary. I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm just a bit fed up with being pigeonholed as a CT.
I note you are in Belgium. What is your dog in this fight?

DR

[Brainster]

Is posted at 9-11 Blogger (http://www.911blogger.com/node/2257).

The structures he engineers are oil rigs:

1979-1993: Conoco, Inc. (Houston)
Company project structural engineer and design engineer on various projects including drilling and production platforms, gaslift injection platforms, living quarters platforms, and many miscellaneous deck extensions, skids, and access platforms. Duties included feasibility studies, reviewing and writing specifications, design calculations, computer input/output, review/checking structural drawings, scope of work, design premises for outside source work, interfacing with other disciplines, and writing various reports.

1977-1979: Brown and Root, Inc. (Houston)
Structural designer of Gulf of Mexico type platforms. Also mud slide resistant platforms. Deck design, jacket tubular, foundation analysis, flotation and launch analysis, lifting and installation analysis.

That last job will be used against him when he gets into the crosshairs of the no-planers. Brown & Root (now known as Kellogg, Brown & Root) is a subsidiary of Halliburton.

[WildCat]

Apparently JREF members "have back connections to paedophile promotion artists and CIA MKUltra torturers"...
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=18937#18937

:confused: WTF???
I don't know about the CIA MKUltra torturers (or even what they are) but I do know where this pedophilia crap comes from. There has been many people convicted years later of pedophilia based on "recovered memories", which is where a person is put under hypnosis and suddenly starts recalling being molested as a child. Similarly, there have been people convicted based on assisted writing by people who are so mentally retarded they can't write. It's all a load of crap, Randi and many other skeptics and medical professionals have been very critical of these methods used by law enforcement. But this enough for the woos to claim we are protecting child molesters, and of course it's complete nonsense.

[sat556]

Maybe it's something to do with that Grenard/Larsen thread?

[brumsen]

I note you are in Belgium. What is your dog in this fight?
You may know that Belgian and Dutch soldiers are among those being sent as 'peacekeeping' forces in post-9/11 warzones.
Another thought: US debts are growing near-exponentially as a result of post 9/11 war expenditure, which is likely to have dire consequences for the world economy.

So I'd like to be sure that what is at the basis of these conflicts has been researched properly.

That enough of an answer for you?

[Darth Rotor]

You may know that Belgian and Dutch soldiers are among those being sent as 'peacekeeping' forces in post-9/11 warzones.
Another thought: US debts are growing near-exponentially as a result of post 9/11 war expenditure, which is likely to have dire consequences for the world economy.

So I'd like to be sure that what is at the basis of these conflicts has been researched properly.

That enough of an answer for you?
1. The American debt will have a dire consequence on the US economy for about the next generation as the Viet Nam "guns and butter" policy of LBJ did. Is your real worry that American largesse to NATO will decrease? When I last checked, 25 cents of each dollar spent in NATO (19 nations then, just up from 16) was American money.

The basis of these conflicts researched properly?

That train has left the station long since, so at this point it is all academic. The die has been cast. But if you want to flog dead horses, can you tell me why Belgium went along with NATO attacking a European nation for the benefit of Muslims and Albanians? Talk to me on the rationale for that one.

With a pint of beer offered, I'd suggest any European look to the security problems in Europe today, specifically the chicanery in Brussels, the farce that is the WEU and EURO Corps, the decison to drop borders in the late 1990's without securing Southern Europe's borders, and the even quainter farce known as Independent European Security Identity . . . before casting a wary eye on Washington. Yes, I had the privilege of spending somt time in NATO and dealing with NATO matters, so I close this comment with my pleasant surprise at ISAF's work in Afghanistan.

As we are nominally citizens of members states in the same alliance, allegedly a collective security organization that meets both Europe's and America's needs, I suppose your interest in American security policy is well raised.

What's that got to do with 9/11? The collective security arrangement failed to defend America from an assymetrical attack. Oh, and when can we bring the boys home from Europe? Are you ready to protect yourselves yet?

DR

[JamesB]

Is posted at 9-11 Blogger (http://www.911blogger.com/node/2257).

The structures he engineers are oil rigs:



That last job will be used against him when he gets into the crosshairs of the no-planers. Brown & Root (now known as Kellogg, Brown & Root) is a subsidiary of Halliburton.

Someone post that over on the LC forum and see how long it takes them to start denouncing him as a Dick Cheney plant. I say 20 minutes.

[JamesB]

You may know that Belgian and Dutch soldiers are among those being sent as 'peacekeeping' forces in post-9/11 warzones.
Another thought: US debts are growing near-exponentially as a result of post 9/11 war expenditure, which is likely to have dire consequences for the world economy.

So I'd like to be sure that what is at the basis of these conflicts has been researched properly.

That enough of an answer for you?

You have a funny definition of exponential. The US federal deficit has been decreasing for 3 straight years. In relation to the size of their economies, the public debt of Belgium is about 50% greater than that of the US.

I am not very familiar with the Belgians, but ever since Srebrenica, the concept of Dutch "peacekeepers" is unsettling.

[brumsen]

You have a funny definition of exponential. The US federal deficit has been decreasing for 3 straight years. In relation to the size of their economies, the public debt of Belgium is about 50% greater than that of the US.
I wonder if you're not confusing the national debt and the federal deficit. See here (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/), e.g.
That aside: it's not as if the US economy's size is irrelevant when discussing the impact of US debt on world economy. Moreover, it's important what share of that debt is 'owned' by foreign creditors.

I am not very familiar with the Belgians, but ever since Srebrenica, the concept of Dutch "peacekeepers" is unsettling.
You might like to read this (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/lessons/sreb1.htm):
What it does clarify is the desperate plight of Dutchbat - the beleaguered, demoralised Dutch soldiers who had the responsibility in July 1995 for implementing the safe havens policy. It describes a crazily conceived international figleaf (liberal interventionism on the cheap) with ludicrous terms of engagement, which amounted to the misplaced belief that the mere presence of a UN force was a sufficient deterrent to the Bosnian Serbs. The air support that might have protected the 8,000 massacred in Srebrenica - which Dutchbat called for - never materialised courtesy of a jittery UN. It was an impossible mission, all now agree; many fond illusions in the international community about a new era of peacekeeping died along with the Bosnian Muslims, and it was largely a matter of chance that it happened on the Dutch watch.
Wariness of impossible UN missions has led to a very cautious approach to sending troops to Afghanistan, and has probably been a reason for not sending any to Lebanon.

[Darth Rotor]

Quote:
What it does clarify is the desperate plight of Dutchbat - the beleaguered, demoralised Dutch soldiers who had the responsibility in July 1995 for implementing the safe havens policy. It describes a crazily conceived international figleaf (liberal interventionism on the cheap) with ludicrous terms of engagement, which amounted to the misplaced belief that the mere presence of a UN force was a sufficient deterrent to the Bosnian Serbs. The air support that might have protected the 8,000 massacred in Srebrenica - which Dutchbat called for - never materialised courtesy of a jittery UN. It was an impossible mission, all now agree; many fond illusions in the international community about a new era of peacekeeping died along with the Bosnian Muslims, and it was largely a matter of chance that it happened on the Dutch watch.

Wariness of impossible UN missions has led to a very cautious approach to sending troops to Afghanistan, and has probably been a reason for not sending any to Lebanon
UN dual key RoE got a lot of people killed, by inaction, who didn't need to die. The event you related was part of the reason NATO got the US to play, and the only way the US military would play was with RoE that allowed some ass kicking to be an option: no BS from the UN building in New York.

You do recall, I hope, that the Dutch did in fact send troops to Iraq?

DR

[Calcas]

Someone post that over on the LC forum and see how long it takes them to start denouncing him as a Dick Cheney plant. I say 20 minutes.

I finally signed up over there 2 days ago. I made one post asking if anyone ever looked into answers and explanations provided on other boards. I listed 3 or 4 links including this one.

20 minutes later the post was removed and I had some comment on my profile saying that I was banned...reason listed was "obvious troll."

Yep. They're really looking for the truth.

[brumsen]

Is your real worry that American largesse to NATO will decrease? When I last checked, 25 cents of each dollar spent in NATO (19 nations then, just up from 16) was American money.

No, that's not my worry really. It might interest you, by the way, to know how much of these 25 cents is money borrowed from other nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_current_accou nt_balance).

The basis of these conflicts researched properly?

That train has left the station long since, so at this point it is all academic. The die has been cast. But if you want to flog dead horses, can you tell me why Belgium went along with NATO attacking a European nation for the benefit of Muslims and Albanians? Talk to me on the rationale for that one.

You mean the Kosovo war? Well, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Kosovo_War) gives a pretty good overview I think.
Not sure why you ask this though. And your phrasing, "for the benefit of.." I find rather tendentious.

With a pint of beer offered, I'd suggest any European look to the security problems in Europe today, specifically the chicanery in Brussels, the farce that is the WEU and EURO Corps, the decison to drop borders in the late 1990's without securing Southern Europe's borders, and the even quainter farce known as Independent European Security Identity . . . before casting a wary eye on Washington. Yes, I had the privilege of spending somt time in NATO and dealing with NATO matters, so I close this comment with my pleasant surprise at ISAF's work in Afghanistan.
Schengen and so on? The problem is mostly perceived as being a problem of economic refugees, not one of security. But go on, convince me that that should be otherwise.

As we are nominally citizens of members states in the same alliance, allegedly a collective security organization that meets both Europe's and America's needs, I suppose your interest in American security policy is well raised.

What's that got to do with 9/11? The collective security arrangement failed to defend America from an assymetrical attack.
Yes, this was my point: let's be absolutely sure that your last sentence can be stated with confidence.

Oh, and when can we bring the boys home from Europe? Are you ready to protect yourselves yet?
Against what threat?

[brumsen]

UN dual key RoE got a lot of people killed, by inaction, who didn't need to die. The event you related was part of the reason NATO got the US to play, and the only way the US military would play was with RoE that allowed some ass kicking to be an option: no BS from the UN building in New York.
JamesB insinuated that the Dutch were to blame for Srebrenica.

You do recall, I hope, that the Dutch did in fact send troops to Iraq?

Yes. And I still regret it. Why?

[Darth Rotor]

Oh, and when can we bring the boys home from Europe? Are you ready to protect yourselves yet?
Against what threat?
My point, exactly. So why is it that you Belgians aren't marching in the streets, as has been done many times in South Korea and Okinawa, to get the American Army of Occupation out of Europe?
You do recall, I hope, that the Dutch did in fact send troops to Iraq?
Yes. And I still regret it. Why?
Why? You are Belgian.

Oh, wait, were Dutch troops defending your borders from the Germans? The French? Luxembourg? Or is the regret tied to Dutch send troops to Iraq, maybe Belgium has to ante up a few more lads for Kosovo, or other Balkan NATO taskings, where the food isn't as good. (Yeah, been to Belgium, you can't get a bad meal there in my experience. :) )

DR

[brumsen]

Why? You are Belgian.
No. I am in Belgium, but I am a Dutch citizen.

But, DR - I get the feeling that when I react to your insinuations with substantive points, you just ignore them.

[LashL]

I finally signed up over there 2 days ago. I made one post asking if anyone ever looked into answers and explanations provided on other boards. I listed 3 or 4 links including this one.

20 minutes later the post was removed and I had some comment on my profile saying that I was banned...reason listed was "obvious troll."

Yep. They're really looking for the truth.

Hi, Calcas. I think I saw your post at LC. At least, I saw one that sounds like what you have described above, and I wondered how long it would last :)

[JamesB]

JamesB insinuated that the Dutch were to blame for Srebrenica.


Yes. And I still regret it. Why?

I never said they were solely responsible, but even the Dutch government admits they were responsible.

The army chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Ad van Baal, stepped down a day after the cabinet quit over a report that Dutch leaders share blame for a massacre of Muslims by Bosnian Serbs in Srebrenica in 1995. General van Baal was deputy head of the armed forces in 1995 when about 200 lightly armed Dutch soldiers in charge of protecting refugees in a United Nations safe haven had to stand by as Bosnian Serb forces overran the area. The Bosnian Serbs separated women and children and deported them on buses and then, out of sight of the Dutch peacekeepers, executed about 7,000 men and boys in nearby fields and villages.
Marlise Simons (NYT)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E1D9173FF93BA25757C0A9649C8B 63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fI% 2fImmigration%20and%20Refugees

[milesalpha]

Just to quibble, it looks like the Dutch TOOK responsibility, as opposed to WERE responsible.

[apathoid]

Breaking news, this may be it...

http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11448

Oh.My.God.

They've interviewed a bunch of eyewitnesses who say a low flying jetliner hit the Pentagon, so naturally that must mean it was sooper-seekrit drone fitted with missile pods(with 757 debris scattering munitions) that fired on the Pentagon before pulling up, turning its cloak shields on and flying away ....

:jaw-dropp

[negativ]

Yep. They're really looking for the truth.

They (at least on the LC forums - I haven't really spent much time elsewhere in CT land) remind me very strongly of a religious movement, argubly a cult. The general attitude of the board is very similar to that of Rapture Ready.

Only they have The Truth, and it is their duty to preach their gospel to the unsaved. The Enemy, of course, hopes to enslave humanity and keeps most of the sheeple asleep through his total control of all media. Anyone who opposes The Truth is an agent of The Enemy attempting to corrupt the minsd of the Faithful and make them lose faith. The Faithful are kept in relative social isolation by means of banning all non-believers.

They believe a Great War between The Truth and The Enemy is coming, and they have a special elite role to play in the outcome of that war. They will, of course, defeat The Enemy ANY MINUTE NOW, because the End is Nigh.

[Darth Rotor]

No. I am in Belgium, but I am a Dutch citizen.

But, DR - I get the feeling that when I react to your insinuations with substantive points, you just ignore them.
Oh, you are a Dutchman? OK, I understand better. Danke.

My remarks on your priority of concern stand, as they did 10 years ago when I asked one of the Dutch officers I was working with why Europe still needed Americans on their soil for their security.

The simple answer is, and was, Europe are collectively unwilling to foot the bill.

DR

[DavidJames]

They believe a Great War between The Truth and The Enemy is coming, and they have a special elite role to play in the outcome of that war. They will, of course, defeat The Enemy ANY MINUTE NOW, because the End is Nigh.and do so without ever leaving their seat in front of the computer.

[Darth Rotor]

and do so without ever leaving their seat in front of the computer.
That is because the other window is opened to their Porno collection. :p

DR

[WildCat]

Oh.My.God.

They've interviewed a bunch of eyewitnesses who say a low flying jetliner hit the Pentagon, so naturally that must mean it was sooper-seekrit drone fitted with missile pods(with 757 debris scattering munitions) that fired on the Pentagon before pulling up, turning its cloak shields on and flying away ....

:jaw-dropp
People saw a helicopter, a small commuter plane, a C-130, a 757, a missile, a white jet, a corporate jet, etc etc.... I am coming to the conclusion that many things happened at once to completely confuse everyone, to create a huge diversionary tactic
OMFG! They got it all figured out now!

Starbuck Yankee Turnbuckle
Let the dog out of the yard. I repeat: Let the dog out of the yard.

[Mancman]

People saw a helicopter, a small commuter plane, a C-130, a 757, a missile, a white jet, a corporate jet, etc etc.... I am coming to the conclusion that many things happened at once to completely confuse everyone, to create a huge diversionary tactic

What's next? Ten plane theory? :confused:

[T.A.M.]

I am posting this here, without the pics, incase they decide later to erase their own evidence, which states they interviewed multiple people who said they saw a large jet plane fly toward the Pentagon.

Posted by MERC, at the LC Forum, August 25th 2006:


Hey guys,

I'm back and have some interesting news for you all.

THERE WAS A LARGE PLANE SEEN DIVING TOWARDS THE PENTAGON!

We have interviewed several eyewitnesses who saw it.

We interviewed:

-Madelyn Zackem, VDOT (not on camera)

-Edward and Shenki, two japanese brothers from an auto shop on Columbia Pike (on camera)

-A couple of women from an arlington neighborhood. (one on camera, the other on the phone)

-Citgo manager


Madelyn was an interesting interview. She showed us where she was sitting when she saw the plane. The building that the plane skimmed over is not the STC building per se, but was actually a building next to it, a small two story brick unit (Circled in red, hidden behind trees, in between small white house and STC office). Her account placed the plane "inches" from the roof of this small building. With the left tilted down. Unfortunately, this would place it BELOW treeop level which we all know is impossible. She said it was "grey", then said "silver". She said she could see the cockpit.

(Their image here, not used)

Edward and Shenki were very informative also. Edward actually went outside when they heard the jet approacing and actually saw the plane. They placed it close to that 100 ft tower in the pictures. They were confused and thought since they saw the men working on the tower the next day that they believed the plane hit the tower. But it does appear that this plane did miss this tower. Edward said it barely cleared the last wing of the Navy Annex. He described it as a "big grey plane with black wings".

The two women in the neighborhood saw the plane also. The first one actually saw it and said it was a white plane with no markings, said it was descending very fast. She saw it with her cousin and her father. Her neighbor's nanny saw it also. Russell spoke with her on the phone, she couldn't add anything helpful other than there was a plane, couldn't describe what it looked like, because it was moving too fast. She said it felt like it was right over the house or was going to fall on the house.


The Citgo manager said her employee places the plane on the OTHER SIDE of the Citgo, the left side or west side (Green line), she is "90% sure", there is a follow-up due on this...

(Their image here, not used)


So spread the word. There was a plane at least as far back as the Sheraton, Navy Annex, and Citgo gas (WRONG SIDE!!)

Flyover anyone?

There is more to come! Stay tuned.

[ryanebelhar]

so 5 years later a gas station manager says an employee from 5 years ago saw it come from a diffrent angle?

well get the firing squad ready, we got some traitors in the government to execute!

[Kent1]

For those interested 911myths has higher site traffic than st911.org again.
In fact Mike's site traffic for the most part continues to go up.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=3m&size=large&compare_sites=st911.org&y=r&url=911myths.com#top

[defaultdotxbe]

you just cant win with these people

"There was no large jetliner at the Pentagon, and we are going to interview witnesses to prove it"

----------------------------

"Witnesses all saw a large jetliner, it must have been there as a distraction"

[Class]

Loose Change is ruining another marriage. A poster is considering divorcing his wife if she does not watch Loose Change: http://www.unipeak.com/gethtml.php?_u_r_l_=aHR0cDovL3MxNS5pbnZpc2lvbmZyZW UuY29tL0xvb3NlX0NoYW5nZV9Gb3J1bS9pbmRleC5waHA/c2hvd3RvcGljPTExMzI0

(Sorry for Unipeak url, I was banned a couple weeks ago and use it to view LC)

[Dog Town]

Dude that rock's! I am IP banned and can see it through that link! Is there a draw back, I should be aware of ?

[Class]

Dude that rock's! I am IP banned and can see it through that link! Is there a draw back, I should be aware of ?

Nope, no draw backs. You can view any site with unipeak.

[Mancman]

Dude that rock's! I am IP banned and can see it through that link! Is there a draw back, I should be aware of ?

Isn't viewing that forum a drawback in itself? ;)

Refrain from viewing to keep your heart healthy.

[Dog Town]

dee-de deee! Who knew? Not me, thanks Hawk, next ones on me at the officers lounge!

[defaultdotxbe]

ninjaproxy.com should work too (also gets you past website filters at work :) )

[Dog Town]

Damn the end is soo near. I wish I knew sooner. No drawbacks though? Class said sorry when posting the link.

[defaultdotxbe]

Damn the end is soo near. I wish I knew sooner. No drawbacks though? Class said sorry when posting the link.

i think it puts that adbar at the top, but thats it

although if for some reason LC admins ban the unipeak IP it wont work anymore

[Dog Town]

maybe I should erase my excited post here?

[tsig]

I think they used M-80s and Lady Fingers, too.

When I was in the USAF in 1963 I was living in a barracks and we had to piss in 55 gallon drums for a week. I always wondered why and now I know the extractd chemicals from the urine to made the bombs. That way they were untraceable.

[defaultdotxbe]

maybe I should erase my excited post here?

plenty more proxies where that came from

[Hellbound]

When I was in the USAF in 1963 I was living in a barracks and we had to piss in 55 gallon drums for a week. I always wondered why and now I know the extractd chemicals from the urine to made the bombs. That way they were untraceable.

LOL

Actually, that's more plausible than most CT theories. At least we know that Urea can be a componenet of certain types of improvised munitions.

[tsig]

I will be happy to answer any questions regarding the interpretation of the posted photos.

Sorry to hear that there was such confusion due to the misplaced photos. My material is spread around in 45+ countries and there are probably other postings that may be subject to clarification.

When in doubt, ask me.

Stephen D. Chastain




Now on molten metal coming from the towers:

Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten flow from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.

The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and "Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?"

First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow.

I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F

Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials."

If the approximate melting temperture of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live load calulations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F.

Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange?

The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissitivty of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8

Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible.

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relaltive to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered conderable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you dont believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up.

The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similay and likey to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tensionis so high is is almost impossible to separate them.

THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron.

Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling.

I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likey.

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the metling temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.

Stephen D. Chastain

If the flowing metal was steel, the top of the building must be setting on air.

[kevin]

ninjaproxy.com should work too (also gets you past website filters at work :) )

depends on how good the filters are. most corporations block open proxies and anonymizers too (that they know of...)

[kevin]

ssuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange?

Not sure why he assumes the aluminum is from the plane. The whole facade of the WTC was covered in aluminum.

[Gravy]

I note you are in Belgium. What is your dog in this fight?

DR

I heard he has a stake in the proposed Europe/Asia frites pipeline that the US has been trying to interfere with. :)

Brumsen, I do recall criticism of your paper that was pointing out flaws in the CD argument. The claim was that you had supposedly written that paper in order to strengthen the CD theory, but your critic (Reynolds?) was doubting that. Was your intent in writing that to strengthen the CD theory, and what do you think about the CD claim now?

[Gravy]

Someone needs to FOIA the radar tapes from the LaGuardia and Newark Towers, likewise White Plains and Tito burrough.
You could be that special someone!

Mike of 911myths has done some of this, but no results yet. By the way, there is a Tito Borough, just south of Neverland Ranch.

[Gravy]

Loose Change is ruining another marriage. A poster is considering divorcing his wife if she does not watch Loose Change: http://www.unipeak.com/gethtml.php?_u_r_l_=aHR0cDovL3MxNS5pbnZpc2lvbmZyZW UuY29tL0xvb3NlX0NoYW5nZV9Gb3J1bS9pbmRleC5waHA/c2hvd3RvcGljPTExMzI0

(Sorry for Unipeak url, I was banned a couple weeks ago and use it to view LC)
She should divorce him. He is a serial smiley abuser.

[tsig]

LOL

Actually, that's more plausible than most CT theories. At least we know that Urea can be a componenet of certain types of improvised munitions.

It was the universal smell that gave it away.

[T.A.M.]

Here is a crazy question...

How can two people spend $247.50 on one occasion, at Suisse Chalet Restaurant? That is alot of food.

That is how much Al-Suqami and Waleed Al-Shehri spent there on Sept 6th 2001

Only thing I can see, is maybe they bought people drinks, or bought a large bottle of wine, in keeping with the Takfir...otherwise I am baffled.

Based on Moussaoui Trial evidence OG00020-07.

[Kent1]

Not sure why he assumes the aluminum is from the plane. The whole facade of the WTC was covered in aluminum.
Because there's far too much of it flowing from out of the window.
NIST also came up with that conclusion.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2002/03/30/129774
In the northeast corner of the south tower's 80th floor, where office furniture had been shoved by the plane, the fire burned so hot that a stream of molten metal began to pour over the side like a flaming waterfall.The apparent source of this waterfall: molten aluminum from the jet's wings and fuselage, which had also piled up in that corner.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7762750380274876390
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11 (This second one isn't shown much)

Here's a little from the NIST report
NIST pg 43 Section H.9 App H Vol 4
Starting at around 9:52 a.m. a molten material began to pour from the top of the window 80-256 on the North face of WTC 2. The material appears intermittently until the tower collapses at 9:58:59. The observation of piles of debris in this area combined with the melting point behaviors of the primary alloys used in a Boeing 767 suggest that the material is molten aluminum derived from aircraft debris located on floor 81.

There's some good info here in the first half. Although I think it should be changed a little bit.
http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Here is a crazy question...

How can two people spend $247.50 on one occasion, at Suisse Chalet Restaurant? That is alot of food.

That is how much Al-Suqami and Waleed Al-Shehri spent there on Sept 6th 2001

Only thing I can see, is maybe they bought people drinks, or bought a large bottle of wine, in keeping with the Takfir...otherwise I am baffled.

Based on Moussaoui Trial evidence OG00020-07.

pfft, no problem. I'm hardly on an unlimited budget, but for Valentine's Day this year, dinner for the wife and I ran ~$150.00 If I had more money, $250 would be no problem to pull off.

[T.A.M.]

Same two terrorists spend $300.00 at suisse chalet on Sept. 8th 2001. man them Islamic Extremists love their suisse chalet...lol

[T.A.M.]

a little off track but...

Dinner for two at suisse Chalet....example:

1. Quarter Chicken/Rib Dinner = $19.99 x2 = about $40.00
2. 2 Large Soft Drinks x 2 = 1.99 x 4 = about $8.00
3. Lets say an appetizer Salad or wings each = $6.99 x 2 = about $14.00
4. Desert = Piece of Cake x 2 = 4.99 x 2 = about $10

That would be an average outing to Suisse Chalet, correct.

Total Cost = $72 + tip = $82

Now of course, for Valentines Day, $150 seems acceptable, but that would be a very splurging one (on a limited budget), but to add in another $100 worth...damn...

unless suisse chalet is much more expensive in USA than in Canada.

[T.A.M.]

Also Interesting, they spent $157.72 at Sears on August 30th, then again, the exact same amount, $157.72 at Sears on September 4th. Obviously the same item was bought...what was it I wonder?

[chipmunk stew]

Also Interesting, they spent $157.72 at Sears on August 30th, then again, the exact same amount, $157.72 at Sears on September 4th. Obviously the same item was bought...what was it I wonder?
:eek: Proof of a double!!!

[Brainster]

For those interested 911myths has higher site traffic than st911.org again.
In fact Mike's site traffic for the most part continues to go up.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=3m&size=large&compare_sites=st911.org&y=r&url=911myths.com#top

We're at 50,000 visitors already for August, with over 150,000 pages viewed. My guess is that we'll double July's traffic by the end of the month. We get amazing numbers of hits from Google and from forums around the world. I love clicking over to one of those and finding the first post in that topic is somebody recommending Loose Change and the second post counters with Screw Loose Change (usually including links to Gravy's guide and Markyx's version as well). That's very satisfying!:D

[gumboot]

It occurs to me that the radar tapes from LaGuardia, White Plains, Newark, Tito Burrough, and a whole host of other local airports would show primary returns/blips of the first aircraft that hit WTC 1.


I believe AA11 went below radar coverage and they lost it at about JFK airport - that was Boston Centre, not New York. NY Centre didn't even know a plane hat hit WTC1 until NEADS contacted them.



The other issue is the subpoena of American Airlines information, and how they blocked efforts to track a particular flight that they apparently had a clue was missing or late.

I agree on this. United confirmed that 175 had hit WTC2 within a matter of minutes, but American took 90 minutes to confirm - they went into information "lock down". That caused a lot of problems for the FAA and NEADS.

-Andrew

[Brainster]

Loose Change is ruining another marriage. A poster is considering divorcing his wife if she does not watch Loose Change: http://www.unipeak.com/gethtml.php?_u_r_l_=aHR0cDovL3MxNS5pbnZpc2lvbmZyZW UuY29tL0xvb3NlX0NoYW5nZV9Gb3J1bS9pbmRleC5waHA/c2hvd3RvcGljPTExMzI0

(Sorry for Unipeak url, I was banned a couple weeks ago and use it to view LC)

<drlauramode>Your wife is not someone who's there to share your personal interests. She's the person who's there to share the rest of your life. Does she have a TV show that she watches that you don't? What would you think if she told you, watch that show with me or I'll divorce you? You'd think she was a nut, right?</drlauramode>

Seriously, what all these anecdotes of how hard it is to talk to family and friends about 9-11 Denial tell me is that either the polls are wrong or a lot of people believe it and don't want to talk about it.

[defaultdotxbe]

We're at 50,000 visitors already for August, with over 150,000 pages viewed. My guess is that we'll double July's traffic by the end of the month. We get amazing numbers of hits from Google and from forums around the world. I love clicking over to one of those and finding the first post in that topic is somebody recommending Loose Change and the second post counters with Screw Loose Change (usually including links to Gravy's guide and Markyx's version as well). That's very satisfying!:D

i know the feeling, my forums are up to #4 on a google search for loose change forums (below the first LC thread here, the SLC blog and an LC thread on bit-tech)

[T.A.M.]

:woo

Way to go guys....

[LashL]

Here is a crazy question...

How can two people spend $247.50 on one occasion, at Suisse Chalet Restaurant? That is alot of food.

That is how much Al-Suqami and Waleed Al-Shehri spent there on Sept 6th 2001

Only thing I can see, is maybe they bought people drinks, or bought a large bottle of wine, in keeping with the Takfir...otherwise I am baffled.

Based on Moussaoui Trial evidence OG00020-07.

The Suisse Chalet in Newton, MA appears to be a hotel, not a Swiss Chalet restaurant.

[gumboot]

The Suisse Chalet in Newton, MA appears to be a hotel, not a Swiss Chalet restaurant.


If it has a high class restaurant, I'd imagine you could blow easily $200+ just on a bottle of wine.

We have restaurant's here in NZ that sell bottles of wine for $300 or more. And NZ has comparatively lower living costs than most of the USA.

-Andrew

[T.A.M.]

ahhh...so it is not the "Quarter Chicken and Ribs" Swiss Chalet That we all love and enjoy...that explains it...thanks a bunch.

[WildCat]

ahhh...so it is not the "Quarter Chicken and Ribs" Swiss Chalet That we all love and enjoy...that explains it...thanks a bunch.
Somehow the name isn't reminiscent of a BBQ joint, lol.

[defaultdotxbe]

another thing to consider is if these are credit card reciepts they might have just bought stuff they didnt even want knowing they would never have to pay the balance

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Just cause it could be useful:
The actual Operation Northwoods document (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/)

[Darth Rotor]

I believe AA11 went below radar coverage and they lost it at about JFK airport - that was Boston Centre, not New York. NY Centre didn't even know a plane hat hit WTC1 until NEADS contacted them.
-Andrew
Guys, around New York, in the terminal area, and typically within 25 miles of a Class B or Class A, or a TCA, you are no longer talking to Center. Center has passed you to an Approach Control handler. You are in New York Approach control, or LaGuardia Approach, Newark Approach, Kennedy APproach, and closer in, (Over Manhattan) you are in La Guardia's Class D airspace, or Kennedy's Class D (though that is more over Long Island, actually) which is controlled by LaGuardia or Kennedy Tower.

They have radar. Radar is line of sight. They have controllers, and those guys have an attitude. They are also very, very good. They have significant VFR traffic in the area. That said, they have a lot of traffic in general. The speed of a non squawker going at the altitude necessary to hit WTC would have been visible as a primary return to a local radar operator. Approach typically challenges anyone entering the Class B without a squawk.

Now, not expecting to see a 400 knot track might have made picking up a track (with no squawk) a bit tricky since most people flying near LaGuardia in the TCA are very good about flying below 200kts, and perhaps there is a radar/radio tape somewhere that shows a controller calling a track and demanding (as only a New York controller can) in great irritation that he identify himself and squawk XXXX.

DR

[LashL]

ahhh...so it is not the "Quarter Chicken and Ribs" Swiss Chalet That we all love and enjoy...that explains it...thanks a bunch.

You're most welcome. I checked it out because I couldn't imagine that in Newton, MA, they would spell Swiss Chalet en francais if they were referring to the chicken and ribs chain :)

[gumboot]

Guys, around New York, in the terminal area, and typically within 25 miles of a Class B or Class A, or a TCA, you are no longer talking to Center. Center has passed you to an Approach Control handler.


I believe Newark International tracked UA175 into WTC2 visually via a pair of binoculars from the tower.

They picked it up on their primary, but by that point they were actively looking for UA175 and knew it was a hijack. I would imagine there would be recordings of the conversation in Newark's Tower as they spotted the radar return and then spotted UA175 visually and watched it hit WTC2.

In any event, Boston Centre took primary responsibility for both AA11 and UA175. They notified surrounding centres (including Approach Control) of the hijackings.

-Andrew

[brumsen]

I heard he has a stake in the proposed Europe/Asia frites pipeline that the US has been trying to interfere with. :)
A frites pipeline? Dang! Everybody knows that the Belgiumites have the monopoly here, despite their being called French - excuse me, Freedom fries.


Brumsen, I do recall criticism of your paper that was pointing out flaws in the CD argument. The claim was that you had supposedly written that paper in order to strengthen the CD theory, but your critic (Reynolds?) was doubting that. Was your intent in writing that to strengthen the CD theory, and what do you think about the CD claim now?
My intent was to test the strength of the CD 'theory'. Reynolds never even understood this, and sent me a series of abusive emails before publishing that stupid piece on his website.
I now think the claim is not so plausible. I am more inclined to LIHOP than MIHOP. Undecided as yet about it, though.

[brumsen]

Oh, you are a Dutchman? OK, I understand better. Danke.

My remarks on your priority of concern stand, as they did 10 years ago when I asked one of the Dutch officers I was working with why Europe still needed Americans on their soil for their security.

The simple answer is, and was, Europe are collectively unwilling to foot the bill.

DR
Danke would be German. Confused between Dutch and Deutsch, per chance?

And as to what this officer said, I repeat: foot the bill for security against what threat?

[Pardalis]

I heard he has a stake in the proposed Europe/Asia frites pipeline that the US has been trying to interfere with. :)

A frites pipeline? Dang! Everybody knows that the Belgiumites have the monopoly here, despite their being called French - excuse me, Freedom fries.

Would the go-between in this infamous frites pipeline be Vladimir(Poutine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine))?

[T.A.M.]

I have a new term, which I fit in...

I am not MIHOP, or LIHOP, I am LIHOS...I believe they "Let it Happen Out of Stupidity"...

[LashL]

Danke would be German. Confused between Dutch and Deutsch, per chance?

?

Are you saying that danke is not acceptable as Dutch for "thanks"?

[brumsen]

?

Are you saying that danke is not acceptable as Dutch for "thanks"?
No, it isn't, inasmuch as it is German...
Dankjewel or Dankuwel would do it.

[brumsen]

I have a new term, which I fit in...

I am not MIHOP, or LIHOP, I am LIHOS...I believe they "Let it Happen Out of Stupidity"...

LIHOP and LIHOS are not incompatible. One's purpose may be stupid.

[LashL]

No, it isn't, inasmuch as it is German...
Dankjewel or Dankuwel would do it.

I'm going to have to ask you for proof that danke is not acceptable as Dutch for "thanks" since my best friend and family are Dutch and they disagree with you.

[brumsen]

I'm going to have to ask you for proof that danke is not acceptable as Dutch for "thanks" since my best friend and family are Dutch and they disagree with you.
So what kind of proof would you require? Would this (http://www.vandale.nl/opzoeken/woordenboek/?zoekwoord=danke) do? :p

Note: the expressions I gave are not in that dictionary either. I should have written "dank je wel" and "dank u wel".
"Dank je" could be used too, but is not the same as danke.

[Gravy]

I'm going to have to ask you for proof that danke is not acceptable as Dutch for "thanks" since my best friend and family are Dutch and they disagree with you.

I suspect that Brumsen, also being Dutch, knows what the common words for "thank you" are. :) Is it possible that your friend is not saying "Danke," but "Dank," as a shortened version, or is simply using the German because it's fun?

[LashL]

So what kind of proof would you require? Would this (http://www.vandale.nl/opzoeken/woordenboek/?zoekwoord=danke) do? :p

Note: the expressions I gave are not in that dictionary either. I should have written "dank je wel" and "dank u wel".
"Dank je" could be used too, but is not the same as danke.

I know the literal translations and the "proper" spellings.

But pedantry aside, are you seriously suggesting that danke is not acceptable as Dutch for "thanks"?

I think you're wrong, if that's what you're suggesting.

[LashL]

I suspect that Brumsen, also being Dutch, knows what the common words for "thank you" are. :) Is it possible that your friend is not saying "Danke," but "Dank," as a shortened version, or is simply using the German because it's fun?

I don't doubt for a second that Brumsen knows the language given that he/she is Dutch. :) But I also know that danke is acceptable for "thanks" in Dutch - not perhaps as a "proper" term but certainly as a colloquialism or a slang version, commonly and widely used.

[brumsen]

I suspect that Brumsen, also being Dutch, knows what the common words for "thank you" are.
But hey, I'm a CT, so I should be pressed for proof of whatever I am saying.

I know the literal translations and the "proper" spellings.

But pedantry aside, are you seriously suggesting that danke is not acceptable as Dutch for "thanks"?

I think you're wrong, if that's what you're suggesting.
It is what I am suggesting. This is just getting beyond silly.

ETA:
danke is acceptable for "thanks" in Dutch - not perhaps as a "proper" term but certainly as a colloquialism or a slang version, commonly and widely used.
Widely and commonly used ... where, exactly?

[Gravy]

But hey, I'm a CT, so I should be pressed for proof of whatever I am saying.
I was about to say that after reading LashL's last. Man, we're tough over here! Sorry, LashL, the burden of proof is on you.

[LashL]

But hey, I'm a CT, so I should be pressed for proof of whatever I am saying.

??

I didn't know that you are a CTer.

But in that case... okay, I'll expect a fifty page treatise defending your position by noon tomorrow :)

[Gravy]

??

I didn't know that you are a CTer.

But in that case... okay, I'll expect a fifty page treatise defending your position by noon tomorrow :)
My LC guide is being translated into Dutch. I need to know how to thank the guy who's doing it!

[brumsen]

My LC guide is being translated into Dutch. I need to know how to thank the guy who's doing it!
I suppose he'll understand you if you say it in English....

BTW LashL, that's a bit of a cop-out isn't it? And me being a CT... that's just a perception of some.

[LashL]

I was about to say that after reading LashL's last. Man, we're tough over here! Sorry, LashL, the burden of proof is on you.

Yep, you're right. And given that I am not Dutch myself and I don't speak Dutch myself, I probably cannot discharge that burden of proof.

That said, danke is widely and commonly used to mean "thanks" by all of the Dutch people I know (i.e. people born and raised in Holland who have subsequently moved here) - granted, I know only a few dozen who were born and raised there but they are consistent.

It was widely and commonly used by Dutch people in the Netherlands during each of my half dozen visits.

My Berlitz Dutch/English dictionary includes it.

Online translation services include it.

[LashL]

BTW LashL, that's a bit of a cop-out isn't it? And me being a CT... that's just a perception of some.

Um, no. I was joking about the treatise - I thought that was obvious.

And as for the CT part, I took that from your own post, as I thought was also obvious.

[Gravy]

I suppose he'll understand you if you say it in English....
Since all the Dutchmen I know* are more fluent in English than 95% of Americans, I'm worried that he'll correct me.



*Except for the one who drank beer out of my speedskating boot. By the end of the night no one knew what language he was speaking. Crazy Dutch speedskating fans, when will they learn?....

[Gravy]

Yep, you're right. And given that I am not Dutch myself and I don't speak Dutch myself, I probably cannot discharge that burden of proof.

That said, danke is widely and commonly used to mean "thanks" by all of the Dutch people I know (i.e. people born and raised in Holland who have subsequently moved here) - granted, I know only a few dozen who were born and raised there but they are consistent.

It was widely and commonly used by Dutch people in the Netherlands during each of my half dozen visits.

My Berlitz Dutch/English dictionary includes it.

Online translation services include it.
Ooh, this is getting good, and it's more interesting than Loose Change. Brumsen, are you perhaps a language purist who accepts no colloquialisms?

[gumboot]

Except for the one who drank beer out of my speedskating boot. By the end of the night no one knew what language he was speaking. Crazy Dutch speedskating fans, when will they learn?....


You do speed skating?

-Andrew

[Belz...]

People saw a helicopter, a small commuter plane, a C-130, a 757, a missile, a white jet, a corporate jet, etc etc.... I am coming to the conclusion that many things happened at once to completely confuse everyone, to create a huge diversionary tactic

Long live Smacco's rozar!

[brumsen]

It was widely and commonly used by Dutch people in the Netherlands during each of my half dozen visits.
Where in the Netherlands?

Online translation services include it.
Please point me to one. I pointed you towards the authoritative dictionary of the dutch language.

Ooh, this is getting good, and it's more interesting than Loose Change. Brumsen, are you perhaps a language purist who accepts no colloquialisms?
Not exactly. Though I like to speak proper Dutch. I simply haven't come across this colloquialism.
BTW, perhaps you ought to be debunking Dutch if you think it more interesting than Loose Change? :D

[Gravy]

You do speed skating?
Used to, but I got tired of staring at guys' asses. I just tried to fit into my (Dutch) boots, which are made from kangaroo leather and cost more than the last car I owned. They must have shrunk a LOT. Yup.

BTW, perhaps you ought to be debunking Dutch if you think it more interesting than Loose Change? :D
What's "debunker" in Dutch?
It would be a challenge, since Dutch has evolved over hundreds of years. LC has only been through three versions and demolishing it is so easy it's almost unfair.

That said, if I live long enough to see "LC LC: The Fiftieth Anniversary Edition with A Very Special Holographic Appearance by the Bermas Family Singers," promise that you'll smother me with a pillow.

[gumboot]

Used to, but I got tired of staring at guys' asses. I just tried to fit into my (Dutch) boots, which are made from kangaroo leather and cost more than the last car I owned. They must have shrunk a LOT. Yup.


Wow, interesting. I've always thought speed skating was a very cool sport. :)

-Andrew

[tsig]

:woo

Way to go guys....

I second that. I am astonished at the amount of work that Gravy, MarkX and all of the ones at JREF have put in.

THANK YOU!!

[Brainster]

This thread was pointed out yesterday (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11324), about a guy considering telling his wife that either she agree to watch Loose Change or he was divorcing her. This struck a chord with one woman, who replied:

I feel your pain. My husband has had it with me and the truth movement. It has really strained our marriage. He thinks I'm wasting my time and will not do any research of his own. Now he is starting to insult me and my comments about the things we know are amiss. There is alot of resentment on both sides now. I am appalled that this smart man can't/won't discuss or plan future scenarios with me. Truthfully, his total disregard has thrown me big time and I entertain thoughts of separating from him.

Enter Dr Chuck:

If I may make a recommendation for YOUR peticular situation.

Download a Richard Andrew Grove podcast from http://8thEstate.com and play it or ask and I can direct you to the link. You can also check http://911podcasts.com. http://TruthSeeker.us links to them all and finally, if you download http://PalTalk.com for free and join the 911 Podcasts/Interviews/Audio room, it's on rotation.

Basically, he needs to learn somehow. It's either video or audio because reading takes too long. Being a male, I am inclined to believe he will take notice of Richard Andrew Grove. Share your results.

If you haven't heard of Richard Andrew Grove, you don't know what you're missing. He's what I call a kitchen sink conspiracy theorist, in that he believes that everything in history is tied into everything else. For example, he claims that JFK was assassinated 666 years to the day after a papal bull was announced banning the Knights Templar.

I also love the "It's either video or audio because reading takes too long,"; I'm a little surprised he didn't add, "and books tend to misspell peticular".

[brumsen]

Used to, but I got tired of staring at guys' asses. I just tried to fit into my (Dutch) boots, which are made from kangaroo leather and cost more than the last car I owned. They must have shrunk a LOT. Yup.
Well, everybody knows that kangaroo leather shrinks if you serve booze in it.

What's "debunker" in Dutch?
My van Dale translates it with "hekelaar", which seems to me sort of correct but unhelpful. It translates "to debunk" with "ontmaskeren" (un-masking), which leads me to propose "ontmaskeraar" for "debunker".

That said, if I live long enough to see "LC LC: The Fiftieth Anniversary Edition with A Very Special Holographic Appearance by the Bermas Family Singers," promise that you'll smother me with a pillow.
Promise. But that seems an awful long time to me.

[Gravy]

I can't figure out why this guy's (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11324) never been married.

I'm far from being anyone you should listen to when it comes to marital advice. I've never been married but have told women to Uck off and have been told by women to Uck off- all in the name of 9/11 Truth.

[Graham2001]

I was looking through the thread linked to above and noticed this statement:

I recommend starting anyone new to 9/11 truth off with WTC building 7.
Suggesting the Pentagon is ridiculous with all the controversy surrounding it. You want to go after the issues the media won't touch....like building 7. (Poster ID: Waking up Amy)

Perhaps it might be worthwhile writing up a simple leaflet dealing with this aspect, just touching on the basic claims, 'Silverstein said "Pull It"', the insurance angle, the so called Controlled Demolition of the building and most importantly all the media statments issued at the time of collapse that stated that what occurred was expected to occur in light of the damage suffered.

[Brainster]

Okay, Aussies, it's time to start complaining! Here's the advertisement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4tB1813uds) for THCA's coverage of that day. Loose Change comes in near the end. Perhaps the Naudets should be notified of this?

[gumboot]

I can't figure out why this guy's (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11324) never been married.

:eek: :jaw-dropp :eye-poppi :covereyes

The poor people married to these nutballs... I wonder what they would say if they read their partners' posts?

Must be a profoundly strong relationship if you're willing to drop it because they won't watch a video...:rolleyes:

For my part I asked my girlfriend to watch LC, and she did. I was careful to make no comment beforehand. Afterwards she was very quiet. And her first question? "Is that stuff true?"

So then I introduced her to Gravy's Viewer Guide. Well. Let's just say she wasn't impressed with LC after that. After having seen United 93 (which really upset her a lot - she's such a gentle angel...:) ) she now gives me full approval to "kick their butts" in her own words.

:D

-Andrew

[gumboot]

I can't figure out why this guy's (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11324) never been married.


Don't worry, there's always a bright side. From the same guy's post (my bolding):

I don't even do the dating scene anymore. I figure why date? Dating is usually a big charade to see if you are compatible with someone else to hopefully narrow down the field to eventually lead to marriage, children etc. I won't ever bring a child into this world considering the state of affairs we are now facing.

The only thing worse than a CT is a reproducing CT.

-Andrew

[mrfreeze]

I showed my g/f Screw Loose Change after she started wondering why I was sitting on the computer at strange hours reading this stuff. Her moral outrage at it was almost as high as mine.

[Brainache]

Okay, Aussies, it's time to start complaining! Here's the advertisement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4tB1813uds) for THCA's coverage of that day. Loose Change comes in near the end. Perhaps the Naudets should be notified of this?

I'm shocked. The History channel paid for this crap?
At least it wasn't SBS. That would've really annoyed me.

[gumboot]

I'm shocked. The History channel paid for this crap?
At least it wasn't SBS. That would've really annoyed me.


Someone really should let the Naudets know. This could get ugly for the boys... and for THCA actually...

Filmmakers don't usually take fondly to major networks broadcasting their footage without permission.

-Andrew

[Matthew Best]

Okay, Aussies, it's time to start complaining! Here's the advertisement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4tB1813uds) for THCA's coverage of that day. Loose Change comes in near the end. Perhaps the Naudets should be notified of this?

How can The History Channel show that piece of non-history? I hope someone is complaining about this....?

[Graham2001]

I'm shocked. The History channel paid for this crap?
At least it wasn't SBS. That would've really annoyed me.

Didn't SBS actually show 'In Plane Sight' a while back. The only reason I remember is that one of my workmates was 'very impressed' with the arguements in that film.

At the time I didn't have the resources at hand to respond to it so I just gave him the 911 myths website address and left it at that.

[gumboot]

Didn't SBS actually show 'In Plane Sight' a while back. The only reason I remember is that one of my workmates was 'very impressed' with the arguements in that film.


:covereyes

I think I debunked every major claim in that trainwreck without needing to do one scrap of research.

-Andrew

[Brainache]

Didn't SBS actually show 'In Plane Sight' a while back. The only reason I remember is that one of my workmates was 'very impressed' with the arguements in that film.

At the time I didn't have the resources at hand to respond to it so I just gave him the 911 myths website address and left it at that.


Damn, did they?
I worked there (SBS) for 16 years and until recently they always had pretty high standards.
I guess it's all part of the new management's quest for ratings at any cost.

[T.A.M.]

I can see this leading to trouble, re: Naudet, and likely others, who may not take kindly to rights not being asked for or purchased. You are talking a major Cable Channel now...

[SRW]

Okay, Aussies, it's time to start complaining! Here's the advertisement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4tB1813uds) for THCA's coverage of that day. Loose Change comes in near the end. Perhaps the Naudets should be notified of this?


That is very disturbing, I wonder if they can be convinced to showing Screw loose change instead? I wonder if a PM to all the Aussies on this board to make them aware would be a good Idea. If someone is getting paid for this crap then Marky and Gravy should get a slice of it for adding the truth.

[T.A.M.]

Even more important, are they aware they are about to show a program they are labelling a "Documentary" that is full of lies and distortions as admitted by the authors tehmselves.

[T.A.M.]

I wish it would get shown in America...and I will tell you why.

The sooner it gets shown to mainstream America, the sooner the mainstream media, and govt will be forced to address these idiots. Then they will be force to bring out all the evidence, to address the main questions the they are asking. Then, perhaps it will shut them up.

If it isnt show in wide form in America, the splinter in our side that is the CT movement, will just continue to Fetzer...I mean Fester...lol

[Brainster]

I've contacted Tim Blair, probably the most influential Australian blogger, to see if he can generate a little blogswarm in THCA's direction. Anybody remember the Naudet Brothers' lawyer's name? I looked over at the Looser forum, but that whole thread has vanished.

[Belz...]

I second that. I am astonished at the amount of work that Gravy, MarkX and all of the ones at JREF have put in.

THANK YOU!!

Well, I don't do any work, unless you consider witty remarks, sarcasm and rehashed arguments work.

[Dog Town]

Belz! You fighter of the good! Release the dogs!
Kiwi's you are next! GB get ready! Come on,... a little 4x, Ausie Rules Fb etc.....
In The states we say" Bring That Weak A** S***"! I presume y'all have a whittteee repart'e, that is proper here? " Awaken the Academic Beast", I double dog dare'em!!!!

DT

[Obviousman]

Damn, did they?
I worked there (SBS) for 16 years and until recently they always had pretty high standards.
I guess it's all part of the new management's quest for ratings at any cost.

It was a commercial channel, TEN if I recall, or possibly SEVEN.

SBS showed that wonderful 'mockumentry' "Dark Side of the Moon".

[Belz...]

Belz! You fighter of the good! Release the dogs!
Kiwi's you are next! GB get ready! Come on,... a little 4x, Ausie Rules Fb etc.....
In The states we say" Bring That Weak A** S***"! I presume y'all have a whittteee repart'e, that is proper here? " Awaken the Academic Beast", I double dog dare'em!!!!


I think your modem line is a little noisy. Otherwise I can't make heads or tails of this, but I'll take it as a compliment.

[Dog Town]

Relax, a comp is all I could ever muster B! The rest is a little Humboldt, and Coors Lt. Come to Venice, drinks on me!

DT

[delphi_ote]

How on Earth can the History Channel be airing the work of pure delusion known as "Loose Change"? I was shocked when I heard this. Your network will be single handedly ensuring that the survivors of 9/11 experience the same pain Holocaust survivors experience with Holocaust Deniers. How will you sleep at night?

If you think for even a second this video has merit, please visit this blog: http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/
Nearly every claim Dylan Avery and his friends have made is an outright fabrication.

For now, the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense is limited to an isolated internet subcult. You will give them credibility. You will ensure that the harassment of 9/11 victims gets worse. You will tarnish the memories of everyone lost that day. All that for ratings? Please stop and think about what your network is doing!

Write to the History Channel, guys!

[T.A.M.]

http://www.shoutwire.com/comments/26567/The_9_11_Religion

Not sure if this was posted yet, but here is a nice little article on Shoutwire.com about the religious like aspects of the Troof movement.

[T.A.M.]

and here is a thread over at LC that makes you realize just how "Lost in it" these guys are...

LC Thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11560)

These guys are actually contemplating what they will do when they get Bush and Cheney impeached...lol

uh huh...might wanna leave that fight in your will...not in your life time Troofer.

[WildCat]

and here is a thread over at LC that makes you realize just how "Lost in it" these guys are...

LC Thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11560)

These guys are actually contemplating what they will do when they get Bush and Cheney impeached...lol

uh huh...might wanna leave that fight in your will...not in your life time Troofer.
:eek:

Sometimes a smilie says it all...

[apathoid]

and here is a thread over at LC that makes you realize just how "Lost in it" these guys are...

LC Thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11560)

These guys are actually contemplating what they will do when they get Bush and Cheney impeached...lol

uh huh...might wanna leave that fight in your will...not in your life time Troofer.

For the benefit of those of us who've been banished from LC, can you summarize or provide a few quotes, pretty please?

[defaultdotxbe]

For the benefit of those of us who've been banished from LC, can you summarize or provide a few quotes, pretty please?

This is a really interesting issue you brought up, and a necessary one. We WILL have to deal with it when the time comes. A horrifying thought is that we might have to take up arms AFTER the fall of the U.S. elite, not before, just so we won't have to concede our rights to the masters of the planet. But keep in mind though that whoever the mastermind of 9/11 and the NWO is, he/she/it/they will be held responsible as well, not just the visible players. But the real answer for now, I think, is vigilance/not ignorance.

we shoudl use unipeak or soemthign to link there

[Gravy]

Okay, Aussies, it's time to start complaining! Here's the advertisement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4tB1813uds) for THCA's coverage of that day. Loose Change comes in near the end. Perhaps the Naudets should be notified of this?
HELL NO. No way. Not If I can help it.

Here's a note I sent through their enquiries page. (http://www.historychannel.com.au/feedback.aspx)

Here are other addresses:

Postal Address The History Channel
GPO Box 99
SYDNEY NSW 2001

Courier Address The History Channel
5 Thomas Holt Drive
Nth Ryde NSW 2113

Phone Number +6 12 9813 6000

Can any locals get the name of the program director? He or she needs a serious talking to.

Attention: Programming Director

I was shocked and dismayed to see that your September 11, 2006 schedule will apparently include the broadcast of the conspiracy video "Loose Change."

Nothing could be a worse commemoration of that horrible day than to show a video that directly mocks the victims while managing to get every single claim completely wrong. "Loose Change" is that bad. I know, because I have writtten a 148-page analysis of the video, in which I point out 81 errors of fact and 356 other flubs. You can view that document here: http://wwwlloosechangeguide.com

Perhaps the best characterization of "Loose Change" comes from Debra Burlingame, the sister of Chick Burlingame, the pilot of flight 77 who was murdered by the hijackers who attacked the Pentagon (an event which "Loose Change" claims did not happen): “The only thing they seem to have gotten right about the September 11 attacks was the date on which they occurred.”

If this sounds like an exaggeration, consider that the producer of Loose Change said in a recent interview, "We know there are errors in the documentary, and we’ve actually left them in there so that people discredit us and do the research for themselves...we left them in there so people will want to discredit us and go out and research the events yourself and come up with your own conclusions." http://smithmag.us/2006/08/10/korey-rowe-the-loose-cannon-of-911/

That's right, these "documentarians" admit to deliberately leaving erroneous material in their video!

I have compiled many of the horrible things the creators of Loose Change say about the September 11 attacks and its victims in a document called "Loose Change Creators Speak." It is available here: http://tinyurl.com/s8ouv I know that the first page alone will be quite an eye-opener to you, and hopefully will cause you to question the wisdom of airing this truly insulting and entirely inaccurate production.

I implore you to reconsider your decision to broadcast "Loose Change," which dishonors all the victims, living and dead, of September 11, 2001.

Please feel free to email me with any questions. No one knows this video better than I do... including its creators!

Sincerely,

Mark Roberts
New York City

[Brainster]

we shoudl use unipeak or soemthign to link there

Wolverines! (Gratuitous Red Dawn reference).

Here's another quote from the starter of the thread:

Let's say we got Bush and Cheney and all of them indicted for treason for allowing or making the 911 attacks happen, and they leak on their bosses and their bosses leak on their bosses, etc etc and the entire corrupt system falls...what do we do next? This is a question most truthers don't confront.

They actually think the whole "system" is going to fail, not just a simple impeachment process (in their "best-case" scenario), resulting in either Speaker Hastert or Speaker Pelosi being installed as President. It was the big corporations who were really behind Bush and Cheney in ordering 9-11, and so the whole capitalistic system is going to collapse, man.

<dylanaverymode>And fortunately those who exposed 9-11 are going to be put in charge. Meanwhile, pass the bong, I think I'll have another toke while I figure out who should be Secretary of State. My inclination is Bermas, because he can lie to people without blinking an eye.</dylanaverymode>

[Brainache]

HELL NO. No way. Not If I can help it.

Here's a note I sent through their enquiries page. (http://www.historychannel.com.au/feedback.aspx)

Here are other addresses:

Postal Address The History Channel
GPO Box 99
SYDNEY NSW 2001

Courier Address The History Channel
5 Thomas Holt Drive
Nth Ryde NSW 2113

Phone Number +6 12 9813 6000

Can any locals get the name of the program director? He or she needs a serious talking to.

If I get a chance on Monday I'll give them a call.

[The_Fire]

Here's my little contribution to the history channel, through the enquiries page:


It has come to my attention that the History Channel intends to commemorate the 5th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks with several specials on the subject. This is all fine and dandy since I do not believe that the event should ever be forgotten.

I can even understand that you need to show diverging opinions on what happened.

What does, however, piss me off, is the fact that you intend to show Loose Change, a video of so low journalistic value that it makes my toes curl.

When the "documentarists", and I use that term VERY loosely in this connection, doesn't get wrong, they mock. They are pissing on not only the good reputation of journalists and documentarists everywhere, but their tabloid approach to a very serious subject are equal to pissing on a lot of good peoples graves.

For instance, did you know that these morons believe that "people are secondary" ? or that the entire FDNY were in on the attacks?
Or how about the fact that they stole a lot of material from the Naudet Brothers, material filmed under the threat of great personal danger ?

You, sirs, are giving these idiots a platform to not only degrade the sacrifices of a lot of brave people, you are also actively making sure that those of us whom actually DOES give a flying **** about standards in the journalistic realm are being saddled with the same reputation as those low-flying vultures from the tabloid industries.

******
Film and Television editor/director/writer.

[The_Fire]

I've contacted Tim Blair, probably the most influential Australian blogger, to see if he can generate a little blogswarm in THCA's direction. Anybody remember the Naudet Brothers' lawyer's name? I looked over at the Looser forum, but that whole thread has vanished.

Lisa Davies from www.fgks.com (http://www.fgks.com/)

[Brainster]

HELL NO. No way. Not If I can help it.

Here's a note I sent through their enquiries page. (http://www.historychannel.com.au/feedback.aspx)

Here's mine--hitting on different points and hammering home that Korey Rowe quote, which is indeed one of the best arguments against the film:

I am disturbed and disgusted to learn that you are planning on airing the mockumentary "Loose Change" on September 11, 2006. This program contains outright mockery of the victims of 9-11, interspersed with lies, exaggerations and myths. It has been debunked by many people, including Popular Mechanics, Mark Roberts, Mark Iradian, the Screw Loose Change blog and others.

It is not a documentary. When confronted with the dozens of errors in the film, one of the producers claimed that they had intentionally left a bunch of mistakes in the film to encourage people to debunk and learn for themselves. You can read the article here yourself:

http://smithmag.us/2006/08/10/korey-rowe-the-loose-cannon-of-911/

In addition, you may not be aware that much of the footage in this mockumentary is copyrighted by other parties. It is the subject of litigation between the Naudet Brothers and Louder Than Words, the Loose Change producers.

In short, airing this woefully inadequate film is a disservice to your viewers and may prove to be a disservice to the shareholders as well. I hope you will reconsider.

[delphi_ote]

Wolverines! (Gratuitous Red Dawn reference).

All that hate is gonna burn you up kid.
It keeps me warm.
No. That was gratuitous!

[Belz...]

and here is a thread over at LC that makes you realize just how "Lost in it" these guys are...

LC Thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11560)

These guys are actually contemplating what they will do when they get Bush and Cheney impeached...lol

This is a really interesting issue you brought up, and a necessary one. We WILL have to deal with it when the time comes. A horrifying thought is that we might have to take up arms AFTER the fall of the U.S. elite, not before, just so we won't have to concede our rights to the masters of the planet.

Too many sci-fi novels and movies for these guys.

And this is coming from a sci-fi fan!

[T.A.M.]

Here is my enquiry letter sent to History Channel Australia Website...

Attention Director of Programming:

It has come to my attention that your channel is airing a number of 9/11 documentaries to commemorate the 5th Anniversary of that horrible and tragic event. I want to commend you on this, however, there is one documentary, which I am dismayed to see you are broadcasting...the slanderous documentary "Loose Change".

This documentary, which I suggest it is "Loosely" called, is not only a film which belittles and mocks the dead, in particular those who died on United Airlines Flight 93, but also is full of factual errors, as self admitted by the films producer, Mr. Korey Rowe. I understand, and support, your station's proactive effort to show all sides of the 9/11 attacks, but for the sake of those who will be mourning a loved one or friend that day, please reconsider showing the film "Loose Change".

Thank you

XXXXXXX


Keep up the fight...

[Brainster]

Lisa Davies from

Thanks, I've sent her a quick email, so there's no need for more people to contact her, unlike the History Channel Australia folks.

[negativ]

Here's a note I sent

Thank you. I'd started to write a frothing, angry, venomous fireball to the powers that be at the Australian offices of THC, but thought better at the last moment. I certainly hope some good comes of your note. :mad:

[delphi_ote]

Keep up the fight...
Way to go, guys. Gotta send in those e-mails!

http://www.historychannel.com.au/feedback.aspx
FYI

[T.A.M.]

It is funny, because I am of two minds...

for the 9/11 anniversary, I think it is Abhorant to show LC. However, I want LC to get out there, in the sense that I want the GP to see it, but to see it for what a pile of crap it is. that is why it would be nice to get SLC film shown after it...ya, not likely gonna happen, unfortunately...

[delphi_ote]

It is funny, because I am of two minds...

for the 9/11 anniversary, I think it is Abhorant to show LC. However, I want LC to get out there, in the sense that I want the GP to see it, but to see it for what a pile of crap it is. that is why it would be nice to get SLC film shown after it...ya, not likely gonna happen, unfortunately...
That's just it. The show is going to have the reputation of "This History Channel" behind it, so people that see the show aren't going to question it. Then all these myths will be perpetuated. It's exactly like "JFK," "What the Bleep Do We Know" or "The Privledged Planet." Slick marketing presentations and fake credentials dupe otherwise sensible people into believing nonsense.

I've known two very intelligent people who watched "Loose Change" and thought, "Hey. There might be something to all this." I managed to talk one of them completely out of it, and the other looked into things a bit more himself. We can't count on that happening for everyone.

[LashL]

Here's mine, also sent via the enquiries page:

Dear Sir or Madam:

I have just seen an advertisement for your scheduled programming for September 11, 2006 and am utterly appalled at the inclusion of the crackpot conspiracy "mockumentary" Loose Change in the lineup.

Not only is this footage grossly dishonest, full of hundreds of lies and misrepresentations, quote mining, unfounded and unwarranted derision and mocking of the victims and their families, and devoid of a single piece of single piece of independent research conducted by its creators, it is also currently the subject matter of copyright infringement litigation.

Moreover, the creators of Loose Change and its supporters are on the record mocking and deriding the victims and their families on numerous occasions. They treat the deaths of nearly 3000 people by acts of terrorism as a joke, and are linked to some very dubious groups including Holocaust deniers, Jew haters, and the like.

I urge you to examine the truth behind the facade of this pathetic hit piece called Loose Change and its creators and come to the only proper decision, which is to ensure that this ugliness is not included in your September 11 programming, so as not to sully your reputation by broadcasting such garbage and, more importantly, to avoid causing unnecessary additional pain, suffering, and angst to the surviving family and friends of the innocent civilians, flight crews, firefighters, and police officers who died that day, and to avoid subjecting them further to the undeserved derision that is heaped upon them by the creators of Loose Change.

These people actively and knowingly participate in mocking the victims and their family members, not only in the wholly fictional video, but have done so repeatedly in other internet released videos. Their behaviour is truly sickening. One need only watch them and their supporters quite literally laughing out loud at people like Mark Bingham and his mother, Alice Hogland; one need only watch them and their supporters insinuating that Betty Ong and Madeline Sweeney (flight attendants) were lying or acting (one too calmly and the other too hysterically); one need only listen to them and their supporters make fun of the numerous passengers on the doomed flights and insinuate that they and their family members are all liars; one need only read the transcript of the agonizing telephone call from the young Ms. Wainio to her mother and then watch these creeps call Ms. Wainio and her anguished mother liars; one need only see these opportunists accuse the parents of 11 year old Bernard Brown of "sending him to die" and insinuating that they did so purposely because they were "in on" the conspiracy; to realize the kind of people the Loose Changers are.

I implore you, in the name of all that is decent, to investigate this yourself and come to the conclusion that the History Channel is no place for such unadulterated garbage. It is unworthy of the standards for which the History Channel is known and it would be wholly improper for the History Channel to spread its venom on your airwaves.

There is ample evidence of all that I have written above readily available to you, and I strongly recommend that you start here: http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html and here:
http://911myths.com/LooseChangeCreatorsSpeak.pdf


Yours truly,
XXXXXXXXXXX

[LashL]

Darn, it just occurred to me belatedly so I am going to send them another email to say that if they really think that they should show a LC video, they should show the superior SLC annotated version instead.

[Matthew Best]

Gravy:

Nothing could be a worse commemoration of that horrible day than to show a video that directly mocks the victims while managing to get every single claim completely wrong. "Loose Change" is that bad. I know, because I have writtten a 148-page analysis of the video, in which I point out 81 errors of fact and 356 other flubs. You can view that document here: http://wwwlloosechangeguide.com

You seem to have missed out a stop in between www and loosechangeguide. Hopefully they will be smart enough to figure it out.

[chipmunk stew]

http://www.historychannel.com.au/feedback.aspx

My contribution:
To the Programming Director(s):

Unless you intend to follow it with the thorough point-by-point savaging it deserves, I implore you to reconsider your decision to air "Loose Change" during your 9/11 Commemoration programming. This travesty of journalism makes a mockery of the people who lost their lives that day.

It is amazing how easily essentially every claim and insinuation in this video can be debunked. There are a lot of knowledgeable people who have spent a great deal of time over the past several months tirelessly addressing the issues raised by people who have seen this video and other self-appointed members of the 9/11 Truth Movement. I'm sure you will be hearing from quite a few of them, and I hope you take their concerns seriously. Many of us take the irresponsible and immature actions of the Louder Than Words crew and other 9/11 Truthers very personally.

I don't think you would air a documentary about the Holocaust presented by a Holocaust denier, at least not without balancing it with a harsh and thorough critique. Yet you have scheduled a documentary about 9/11 presented by a group of 9/11 deniers, apparently without plans to air an in-depth analysis of the video and its claims. This strikes me as a deeply cynical decision to cash in on controversy.

Sincerely,
**********

[Brainache]

OK I've added my two cents to the History Channel's enquiries log:


Is it true that the History channel are going to air the hopelessly flawed and insulting "Documentary" Loose Change?
I thought the History Channel only broadcast Factual documentaries.
Loose Change contains so many errors and outright lies that I'm surprised The History Channel would have anything to do with it.
Not only have all the claims made by the film makers reguarding 9/11 been totally discredited (see loosechangeguide.com), but the film is also the subject of a legal case in America over the unauthorised use of footage from yhe Naudet brother's documentary about the New York Fire Department's response to 9/11.
I think you would be better off screening Screw Loose Change.
Anyway I hope you take my concerns seriously. It is not the kind of film which should be given any credence by a serious broadcaster such as the History Channel.
Yours sincerely
XXXXXXXXX

I did sign my real name and as it is the same as a high profile Australian TV writer/producer(no relation to me) it may cause a little stir.

[gumboot]

It is also worth noting that it's not The History Channel Australia. It is The History Channel Australia AND New Zealand. So we'll be getting this garbage here too.

I have sent a quick query email, but will also be writing a letter.

-Andrew

[Abbyas]

On another topic.

Gravy, RealityBites and I are "provacateurs"!

Apparantly, this "bulletin" has been bouncing around ny truther myspace blogs.


NYPD, THE G. : HELMETS, FLAK JACKETS AND MACHINE GUNS CONFRONT NY 911 TRUTH

Aug. 12, 2006

INCIDENT REPORT: SAT CIRCA 2 PM

LARGE POLICE VAN LABELED NYPD PARKS BEHIND 911 TRUTH BANNER
SECOND LARGE UNMARKED VAN WITH BLACKED OUT WINDOWS PARKS BEHIND NYPD VAN (possible video-audio surveillance van)

WHITE OFFICER EARLY TO MID 40S, WITHOUT BADGE , MILITARY LIKE CREW CUT, SUIT, IDENTIFIES HIMSELF TO 911 TRUTH AS PART OF NYPD "INTELLIGENCE"

THEN ASKS IF 911 TRUTH HAS PERMIT FOR BANNER, SAYS BANNER POLES REQUIRE A PERMIT

I TELL HIM THESE GUYS HAVE BEEN HERE FOR YEARS NOW, AND COURTS HAVE ALLOWED PROTESTS.
HE SAYS POLES REQUIRE PERMIT

L. JOINS DISCUSSION , SAYS WOOD POLES NOT PERMITTED, BUT POINTS OUT TO OFFICER THAT POLES ARE CARDBOARD
NYPD INTELLIGENCE SAYS HARD CARDBOARD IS NOT PERMITTED
POLICE OFFICER'S MANNER IS POLITE AT ALL TIMES AND NOT INFLAMMATORY OR THREATENING.
HOWEVER

2-3? BODY GUARDS, TO THIS MOST LIKELY SENIOR OFFICER WHO TRAVELS IN TWO VANS WITH SWAT PERSONNEL,
GET OUT OF VAN.

THESE POLICE SOLDIERS ARE IN BLACK SWAT UNIFORMS , ONE OR TWO HAD LONG BARREL MACHINE GUNS PERHAPS M16, ONE I THINK HAD

SHORT AUTOMATIC WEAPON, PERHAPS GLOCK SWAT WEAPON, NOT SURE ABOUT DETAILS HERE.

THEY SEEMED TO BUILD A DEFENSIVE PERIMETER OF CIRCULAR NATURE AROUND THE SENIOR OFFICER INDICATING A BODY GUARD FUNCTION.

NOTE: UNUSUAL FEATURE OF THIS APPEARANCE WAS THAT THE OFFICERS HAD SHORT METAL HELMETS, NOT SWAT CAPS., HELMETS
THIS MAY BE A NEW TACTIC, PERHAPS INDICATING A CHANGE IN LEVEL OF ALERT. HELMETS ARE REQUIRED FOR COMBAT OPERATIONS NOT FOR FIRING ON LONE GUNMAN OR NORMAL POLICE ACTIONS-COMBAT OPS WITH POSSIBLE SHRAPNEL./GRENADES ?

SOMEWHERE IN THIS PERIOD, FEMALE PROVOCATEUR "ABBY" APPROACHES NYPD INTEL OFFICER AND ASKS HIM TO "DO SOMETHING" ABOUT 911 TRUTH STOPPING HER FROM PUTTING UP SIGNS. BASICALLY ASKING THEM TO ARREST ONE OF US AS PROHIBITING HER "FREE SPEECH"

I ASK OFFICER IF ITS PERMITTED FOR THEM TO PUT SIGNS NEXT TO 911 SIGNS, SHOULD THEY NOT BE IN A DIFFERENT PLACE WITH THEIR OWN MESSAGE

OFFICER DOES NOT ASK A QUESTION HERE. HE STATES THAT THEY ARE ALLOWED TO MINGLE IN 911 PROTEST SINCE WE DO NOT HAVE A PERMIT.

NOTE-THIS INDICATES NYPD HAS AWARENESS OF THIS PRACTICE OF PROVOCATEURS AT GROUND ZERO!

I ASK IF HE WORKS FOR FORMER CIA OFFICER IN CHARGE OF NYPD INTELLIGENCE , THE ONE THAT WAS IN BUILDING 7 ON 9-11,
OFFICER STUTTERS HERE AND THEN SAYS YES.
911 PUTS BANNER DOWN .

NOTE THIS APPEARANCE BY NYPD IS ATYPICAL IN THAT 1) THEY APPROACH 911 TRUTH, 2) THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS "INTELLIGENCE" AND 3) AS NOTED APPEARANCE OF HELMETED BODYGUARDS, AND 4) THEIR APPEARANCE COMES AFTER INITIATION OF PROVOCATEURS AT GZ, WHICH THEY HAVE APPARENTLY KNOWLEDGE OF .

ALSO WHY DID OFFICER IDENTIFY HIMSELF AS NYPD INTELLIGENCE?
THIS POSSIBLY CONFIRMS THAT NYPD INTEL (ANTI-TERROR) HAS INTERNALLY IDENTIFIED NY 911 TRUTH AS A "TERRORIST" ORGANIZATION. SELF-IDENTIFICATION AS INTEL THEN THREATENS APPLICATION OF THE PATRIOT ACT

THIS TOGETHER WITH APPEARANCE OF PROVOCATEURS SIGNALS RATCHETING UP OF ANTI-WAR, 911 TRUTH ACTIVITIES BY STATE SECURITY APPARATUS., PROVIDING FURTHER EVIDENCE IN CHANGE OF ALERT STATUS-POSSIBLE SECOND 911 COMING SOON?

ALSO INDICATES HIGH LEVEL DIRECTIVE TO INTERVENE AT GZ. SUNDAY LECTURE ATTENDEES SHOULD CONSIDER LEAFLETTING AT GZ.


______________
INFORMATION HERE IS AMALGAM OF FIRST HAND REPORTS NOT NECESSARILY WITNESSED BY ME.

PLEASE SEND ANY OTHER INFORMATION, CORRECTIONS, TO NY 911TRUTH.

RECOMMENDATIONS
cameras SHOULD BE AT GZ AT ALL TIMES TO VIDEO IF POSSIBLE POLICE INTERFERENCE IN CASE OF FALSE ARREST
SHOUTING OR ANY OTHER DISTURBANCE OF THE PEACE SHOULD NOT BE CONDUCTED
ONE MORE CAVEAT- SEE BELOW, NYPD INTEL WORKS CLOSELY WITH NATIONAL DRUG ,OTHER AGENCIES.
ANYONE BRINGING DRUGS TO 911 EVENT SHOULD BE ASKED TO CONDUCT THIS ELSEWHERE

Note: no one was asked to be arrested. Although because I asked if they had any right to physically prevent us from putting up our own signs, I was a "f@@@ing Nazi."

Provacateurs! If only I had nearly as much power as these people think I have.

[chran]

Here are my two cents:

http://www.historychannel.com.au/feedback.aspx

Hello,

I have just learned that you intend to show the film Loose Change on September the 11th on your channel.

Loose Change is a pack of lies, intended to mock the victims of 9/11.

A guy called Mark Roberts has written a Viewer's Guide to Loose Change. He goes through the movie point by point, refuting every single false claim he finds.

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

I encourage you to read it, and maybe also the "Screw Loose Change"-blog, located at http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

I know that my opinion may not matter much, since I'm up here in Denmark, but I think it's important to remember the events of 9/11 in a somber and dignified light, and not in any kind of sneering attack made by some in-informed college-students.

With regards,

Christian Andersen,
Denmark Not as eloquent as the others perhaps, but it gets the point across.

[gumboot]

Apparantly, this "bulletin" has been bouncing around ny truther myspace blogs.


These people are so paranoid it's funny. What is with the whole thing about the helmets? PASGT helmets have been standard part of dress for police SWAT teams the world over for years.

The New Zealand AOS (Armed Offenders Squad) have been wearing them for the better part of a decade.

-Andrew

[Axiom_Blade]

THIS TOGETHER WITH APPEARANCE OF PROVOCATEURS SIGNALS RATCHETING UP OF ANTI-WAR, 911 TRUTH ACTIVITIES BY STATE SECURITY APPARATUS.,

Yah, because "911 TRUTH" is totally the same as the anti-war movement.
PSSSHHTT.
And if Dylan Avery is the new Martin Luther King, does that make Alex Jones Malcolm X? Just trying to keep track here.

SEE BELOW, NYPD INTEL WORKS CLOSELY WITH NATIONAL DRUG ,OTHER AGENCIES.
ANYONE BRINGING DRUGS TO 911 EVENT SHOULD BE ASKED TO CONDUCT THIS ELSEWHERE


They have to tell their goons not to consume and/or deal drugs at their protest.

[Gravy]

Gravy:
You seem to have missed out a stop in between www and loosechangeguide. Hopefully they will be smart enough to figure it out.
Oops. Haste when writing in a blind fury makes waste!

[Gravy]

On another topic.

Gravy, RealityBites and I are "provacateurs"!

Apparantly, this "bulletin" has been bouncing around ny truther myspace blogs.

Note: no one was asked to be arrested. Although because I asked if they had any right to physically prevent us from putting up our own signs, I was a "f@@@ing Nazi."

Provacateurs! If only I had nearly as much power as these people think I have.
:dl:
Funniest thing I've read in ages. Folks, you had to be there. The cops in question didn't pull up to harrass the Deniers. They patrol the area all the time, and there had just been a terrorist scare in England.

THEY SEEMED TO BUILD A DEFENSIVE PERIMETER OF CIRCULAR NATURE AROUND THE SENIOR OFFICER INDICATING A BODY GUARD FUNCTION.
Translation: "They walked around in a random fashion looking at tourist chicks and trying to get a whiff of air conditioning from the van."

To emphasize what Abby said, before the cops came the DenierNazis had been physically trying to prevent us from exercising the same constitutional rights that they were practicing. Oh, the irony!

It's true that Abby didn't ask them to arrest anyone. She asked them to shoot the deniers, and requested that the dog be allowed to feast on their entrails.

[gumboot]

It's true that Abby didn't ask them to arrest anyone. She asked them to shoot the deniers, and requested that the dog be allowed to feast on their entrails.


Spoken like a true NWO shill.

:cry1

I'm so proud of you.

-Andrew

[Belz...]

On another topic.

Gravy, RealityBites and I are "provacateurs"!

Is that like a mix of "provocateur" and "provable", or something ? Or maybe "provider" pronounced with a texan accent. You DO provide the truth, after all, and you DO provoke critical thinking...

ETA: Oops. I thought the typo was in the original. It seems, now, that I've unintentionally made fun of Abby's english (or French, actually). Now I've done it!! :(

[Brainache]

I like you Abbyas. You are my kind of shillchick!
If I was twenty years younger I'd be hopping on a plane tomorrow and heading for NY just to watch you bust some nutters' nuts.

[T.A.M.]

Re: provacateurs:

That is classical. These people think they ar part of some new "american revolution". It is like someone wrote this fantastic story they were reading and then they found this entrance into that world at the back of the coat closet (notice reference...:)).

The more authorities respond to them, the more glee they are in, because they get to FEEL IMPORTANT.

Poor pathetic individuals with nothing better to do with their lives IMO...

[jhunter1163]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11435

Apparently, it's also going to be shown on Dutch public TV.. at 11:40 PM on 9/10, probably won't pull great ratings, but still....

ETA: and Swiss, and French... maybe it's a good thing, they'll get just enough MSM exposure to be shown for the morons they are.

[WildCat]

And the idiocy continues. Head looser (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11599) starts thread about the Comair crash. Can you spot his factual errors?

[WildCat]

Oh my,,, (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6929634)
One more thing.....do you think that these people who are out to "debunk",( i hate that word to D.A.) have been rewarded with a life of luxury and money for life for doing these deeds?

IMHO i think that people like this have, and are being blackmailed and bribed. I think many people have been setup with prostitutes,drugs,underage prostitutes..etc..etc and have mighty daming evidence(photos,videos) of the things they have done, and if they don't co-operate fully they will have their entire lives ripped apart. Much can be bought and paid for with a trillion and some budget!

I feel so ashamed for picking up that undercover prostitute, now I can't blow the lid off this massive conspiracy... :rolleyes:

[delphi_ote]

Oh my,,, (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6929634)


I feel so ashamed for picking up that undercover prostitute, now I can't blow the lid off this massive conspiracy... :rolleyes:
The conspirators got the power to bring people down with outlandishly improbable setups by bringing people down with outlandishly improbable setups.

[Abbyas]

many people have been setup with prostitutes,drugs,underage prostitutes..etc..etc

ETA: Oops. I thought the typo was in the original. It seems, now, that I've unintentionally made fun of Abby's english (or French, actually). Now I've done it!!

No more prostitutes for you!

If I was twenty years younger I'd be hopping on a plane tomorrow and heading for NY just to watch you bust some nutters' nuts.

(Blush) And if I was twenty years older, I'd get ready to join AARP.

[kookbreaker]

(Blush) And if I was twenty years older, I'd get ready to join AARP.

Get seperate rooms, you two!

[negativ]

rewarded with a life of luxury and money for life

I was just thinking about this. I wonder what the LCers would say if they could see me sitting here in my diamond-studded solid gold hot tub, cracking open yet another bottle of Macallen Fine and Rare 60 year-old whisky, and admiring my vast collection of van Gogh originals while I wait for next week's supply of ethnically diverse maidens (to take me from this place to another place where I will be made to rest myself amongst sheets of muslin and velvet...)

[Gravy]

Oh my,,, (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6929634)

Jason sent the PM team an invitation to a debate between us and them about a week ago.

No response yet. Hm. Odd. I thought they were the authority on "Debunking!"
They'll challenge people to a debate who they know aren't interested, yet they refuse to debate when challenged themselves. What weaple (weasel people)!

[Gravy]

I was just thinking about this. I wonder what the LCers would say if they could see me sitting here in my diamond-studded solid gold hot tub, cracking open yet another bottle of Macallen Fine and Rare 60 year-old whisky, and admiring my vast collection of van Gogh originals while I wait for next week's supply of ethnically diverse maidens (to take me from this place to another place where I will be made to rest myself amongst sheets of muslin and velvet...)
Jeeves just got a chuckle out of reading your post to me. I'm thinking it may have been a mistake to have posted my schedule (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1871577&postcount=300) the other day (scroll 'til you see pictures). If we want to keep our cushy gubmint jobs, we should probably keep mum about its perks.

[T.A.M.]

I wish they had taken them up on their challenge. Can you imagine Bermas arguing in a debate, with someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

Moderator: Mr. Bermas, your movie speculates that $160 Billion in gold was under the WTC at the time of its collapse, yet there is absolutely no proof of this. Care to explain?

Bermas:umm....umm...well It's Dylans movie...and um....that was one of our intentionally left in errors...and ummm....what about the 16 foot hole...hmmm?

(finished with a mixed look of a deer in the headlights and an egomaniacs grin).

----

In the end, we know why PM didn't answer them...the person who recieved the email took one look in it and said..."Who the (Rule8) is Dylan Avery?"

:) TAM

[delphi_ote]

I was just thinking about this. I wonder what the LCers would say if they could see me sitting here in my diamond-studded solid gold hot tub, cracking open yet another bottle of Macallen Fine and Rare 60 year-old whisky, and admiring my vast collection of van Gogh originals while I wait for next week's supply of ethnically diverse maidens (to take me from this place to another place where I will be made to rest myself amongst sheets of muslin and velvet...)
I'm killing time playing The Sims 2. One of my sims is a vampire that sleeps in a castle full of trees that grow money. From now on, I'll call him "Gravy."

[Belz...]

No more prostitutes for you!

DAMMIT!

(Blush) And if I was twenty years older, I'd get ready to join AARP.

You know, Abby. With the proper contract (see my avatar) you could stay young and pretty forever.

... of course, then I'd blackmail you into debunking the 9/11 "truth", but that isn't important now.

TEGROF!

[Belz...]

One more thing.....do you think that these people who are out to "debunk",( i hate that word to D.A.) have been rewarded with a life of luxury and money for life for doing these deeds?

IMHO i think that people like this have, and are being blackmailed and bribed. I think many people have been setup with prostitutes,drugs,underage prostitutes..etc..etc and have mighty daming evidence(photos,videos) of the things they have done, and if they don't co-operate fully they will have their entire lives ripped apart. Much can be bought and paid for with a trillion and some budget!

Lucky for me I'm the prince of darkness. EVERYONE knows what I do, anyway.

Whew!

[T.A.M.]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11535

Seems KT is back in business over at LC...guess he gave them his tel#....ya right...I would say they got so much heat from their members they pissed themselves, then decided..."Oh shoot, who is gonna do the research now?" and then let him back on...

[tsig]

Oh my,,, (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6929634)


I feel so ashamed for picking up that undercover prostitute, now I can't blow the lid off this massive conspiracy... :rolleyes:

If you would just let me know when you are sending the girls I wouln't have to kill them all OK.

phsyco ninja

[R.Mackey]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11535

Seems KT is back in business over at LC...guess he gave them his tel#....ya right...I would say they got so much heat from their members they pissed themselves, then decided..."Oh shoot, who is gonna do the research now?" and then let him back on...
That would explain his hasty retreat from here. 60-odd pages in his ridiculous thread attempting to smear Val and her photo of Flight 93, then suddenly nothing... apparently he was getting dangerously close to realizing that he didn't know schist from shinola.

Now that the Loosers are reuniting, I eagerly anticipate their next round of bickering. I don't believe they'll simply retire their mutual doubts and move on. Simply not in their nature.

[T.A.M.]

I know but is fun watching...kind of like watching a pot boil over, knowing you don't have to clean up the mess...

[pgwenthold]

Damn. Is there ANYTHING that SOME JREFer doesn't know ?

It's what I call the First Law of Internet Discussion: Regardless of the topic, someone participating knows more about it than you do.

Now, this gets less so as discussion groups mature, and you start to learn who is participating and what they know, but it's a good rule of thumb.

[Kent1]

Im not going to go into Jones errors again with the Aluminum, but for those who may be interested here is Jones reply to the Reynolds Wood's article.
http://www.911podcasts.com/files/documents/JonesReplytoReynolds-Wood.doc

Reply to Reynolds & Wood
by Steven E. Jones 8/25/2006

Morgan Reynolds and Judy Wood have posted the essay “The Trouble with Steven E. Jones' 9/11 Research.” Of course, I will reply and add to my reply as I have time. As we approach 9/11/2006 and the next election, there is much better use of my time.

1. Cold fusion
R&W write: “Cold fusion violates standard physics theory because there is no explanation of where the energy might come from to merge nuclei at room temperature.”

Their statement above is false.
I led a team at Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility which experimentally studied the original cold fusion, called muon-catalyzed fusion, and demonstrated that fusion does indeed occur very rapidly at room temperature and below. (Other physicists had demonstrated the reality of the room-temperature fusion effect before us.) Indeed, we achieved our best results at liquid hydrogen temps, around 21 Kelvin. A little quantum mechanics explains how this works – the deuterons (or deuteron + triton for higher yields) TUNNEL THROUGH THE COULOMB BARRIER. High temperatures are NOT required for fusion. This is not controversial in the physics community, although some may forget about muon-catalyzed room-temperature fusion until your remind them.

The same quantum mechanical tunneling occurs for d-d fusion in our metal-catalyzed fusion experiments. Our hypothesis in the late 1980’s was: "Metals catalyze nuclear fusion, and some metals will enhance fusion more than others.” I agree that our results were controversial, as is common at the forefront of science. The unequivocal confirmation of this claim, with 100% reproducibility if you will actually read the papers, came in the late 1990’s and after. The papers are published in peer-reviewed Journals and are referenced in my recent paper and in the table below http://www.journalof911studies.com/JonesAn...TradeCenter.pdf .


R&W reference this paper in their essay, so clearly they are well aware of it. There is a section on my cold fusion work which they may wish to review, in particular this part:




Above, I summarize the empirical results of five different experiments regarding metal-catalyzed fusion (to distinguish this from Pons & Fleischmann cold fusion, which is NOT to be confused with our work). I recommend all of the papers referenced above.

OTOH, if R&W insist that “there is no explanation of where the energy might come from to merge nuclei at room temperature,” the proper thing to do is to write up a scientific paper explaining why all of us are wrong about fusion at room temperature and submit it to Europhysics Letters or Z. Phys. or one of the other Journals listed above. (Good luck.)




2. “No-planes-hit-the-Towers theory”

R&W come back repeatedly to this theme:
“Jones neglects laws of physics and physical evidence regarding impossible WTC big plane crashes in favor of curt dismissal of the no-planes-theory (NPT). He relies on "soft" evidence like videos, eyewitnesses, planted evidence and unverified black boxes. When others challenge how aluminum wide-body Boeings can fly through steel-concrete walls, floors and core without losing a part, Jones does not turn to physics for refutation but continues to cite eyewitnesses and videos, thereby backing the OGCT.”

It’s true: I do not accept the no-planes-hit-the-Towers theory which is espoused by R&W and Gerard Holmgren, Rosalee Grable, Nico Haupt, and Killtown – who are listed by R&W as having performed “The only investigation worthy of the name,” according to them. (I disagree.)

But I DO turn to physics and to hard physical evidences for refutation of this no-planes notion, right in my paper they cite http://www.journalof911studies.com/JonesAn...TradeCenter.pdf, starting on page 171 in the current version (there is an index at the front). The reader will find there, on the first page of my discussion:

• As usual, we look for hard evidences to test or rule out the hypothesis, using the Scientific Method.
• Look at the data for yourself: mark the tail as it goes in (can you see the deceleration?): http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5402/17...rneathccwt1.gif

Now I have looked at these data myself, some time back. I focused on the motion of the tail section of the aircraft as it entered the Tower. And I found that the tail slowed down dramatically as the plane entered the building – there is REAL DECELERATION! Now I would ask the reader to check me on this – mark the position of the tail in each frame and notice that the marks get closer together as the plane enters the Tower. Now we have some data! And we can discuss these data like scientists, and determine the amount of deceleration, etc.

But wait – Reynolds finds no deceleration of the plane! He writes:

“How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?”
“Zero deceleration upon impact, although shown in south tower videos, is physically impossible.”
Over and over he refers to no deceleration in his essay here: http://nomoregames.net/printer_friendly.ph...1=we_have_holes

Now we have a clear discrepancy in interpreting the data – and that is where the polite discussion should focus, rather than on ad hominems.

Reynolds also brings up: “no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone.” But again, I disagree – for I have shown photos of wreckage found on the ground below the impact zone in my Answers paper, e.g.:



Again, I presented physical evidences for real debris from real planes hitting the Towers.

Now when a jet hits a building, the building is going to move – due to conservation of momentum (basic physics), and then the building will sway back and forth after the collision. But only if a REAL plane hit the Tower. And so we find data for this oscillation:




These are physical data, showing a characteristic nearly exponential decay (damping) of the oscillation. Observed oscillation of the WTC 2 Tower provides compelling empirical evidence that it was hit by a fast-moving jetliner. Any claim to the contrary must confront these published data or the analysis thereof.
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5.pdf p. 26 It will not do in scientific inquiry to ignore data like this – even if one does not trust the source for some reason. In other words, the argument must be to the DATA, not to the source (ad hominem).

I could go on, but the fact is that as editor of the Journalof911Studies.com, I have invited Morgan Reynolds and whoever he wishes to join him, and another author to write papers on BOTH sides of this issue – did REAL planes hit the Twin WTC Towers, or not? Both sides agreed. In this way, readers will have two peer-reviewed scholarly papers side by side, both confronting the evidences presented above and whatever other evidences they wish to bring in – and then the reader can judge for himself or herself. And that is MUCH better than ad hominem arguments – it is the way of modern science.










3. Glowing aluminum
R&W write: “We have no explanation for why Jones would insist, contrary to evidence outside BYU, that flowing aluminum does not glow at high temperatures in daylight conditions.”
Now read what I wrote in my paper, and which R&W quote actually, see if you find what I am really saying:

Jones paper: “A notable exception is falling liquid aluminum, which due to low emissivity and high reflectivity appears silvery-gray in daylight conditions, after falling through air one to two meters, regardless of the temperature at which the poured-out aluminum left the vessel. Aluminum does incandesce [glow] like other metals, but faintly so that the conditions in the previous sentence, falling liquid aluminum will appear silvery-gray according to experiments at BYU [Jones references himself {as is standard in science, to reference a separate paper written with others, to give the reader much more detail.])."

Can you see it there? Look again – that’s what I said. Aluminum DOES GLOW, faintly. And I provide photos and experiments we did ourselves, showing that falling, poured-out aluminum appears silvery in daylight conditions, even though it is indeed glowing faintly. That is because its reflectivity far exceeds its emissivity. Inside a shadowed environment, with molten aluminum stationary, I – we – saw a beautiful pinkish glow from the aluminum. Then we poured it out – and the stream was silvery!

Look, I’m not tricking anyone – please, Judy, pour out the liquid aluminum in the air in daylight, and THEN tell me what it looks like! (Not sitting next to tungsten which also has low emissivity, as in your previous experiments.) The difference lies in matching the WTC conditions – POURED OUT, flowing, falling aluminum far from the container will indeed appear silvery, every time. Try it. You’ll see.

This from a fellow who emailed me – and I forwarded the email to R&W so they would have a ‘second witness’ regarding the behavior of falling liquid aluminum, but they did not reply AFAIK:

On 8/17/06,
Steve.

Since my email to you regarding the question of glowing Aluminum, I have received some better information from a source none other than my own Father!

My father, who is 69 years old now and in poor health, told me today, that HE WORKED for a company called British Aluminium starting in 1973 up until he was made redundant in 1983!
Being a kid at the time, i was aware that he worked in a factory of some sort but wasn't aware of exactly what he did there and,over time, i had never asked! Until today that is.

My Dad told me that British Alcan, which he said the company changed its name to, made everything from drink cans,alluminium foil and yes, aircraft body panels. When i asked him (at last)what his job entailed, he told me he worked in the foundry, where the alluminium was melted prior to being poured into moulds to form the ingots.

What is interesting is this.

When i asked my dad what colour the liquid alluminium was in the furnace (which was oil fired he said),he said that the top of the liquid was silver,which he called the slag, but underneath when the slag was scraped off, the aluminium had a pinkish appearance, a pinkish glow. Not red or orange or yellow but pink.

He also said that the colour of the liquid alluminium remained that way ONLY UNDER the SLAG within the vessel because,when the liquid was exposed to air, it turned the colour you would expect immediately, Silvery, hence the colour of the slag which is of course exposed to the air.
It also goes without saying really, but he said that when poured from the vessel,the liquid aluminium's in-vessel colour of pinkish, does not make it very far,if at all, from the vessel before it turns, you guessed it, to the silvery natural colour of aluminium.

From someone who has had firsthand experience of working with liquid aluminum in furnace conditions,i hope that the information my Father has been able to supply may be of some use.

Regards.
Mike Ferguson. UK

Whoa! Evidence outside BYU!

My reply: “Yes, this is what we observe also, Mike. Poured out aluminum [in air] appears silvery, every time!
It's beautiful also, in the darker environment of the vessel to see the pinkish glow. I've seen it. Then POUR the liquid aluminum out in a stream and VOILA, it looks silvery!

Thank you for following up on this.

Steven Jones






Does the poured-out, falling liquid metal from the WTC Tower (above) look like poured-out liquid aluminum (below) to you? The above photos are now used in my online paper.


(I have discussed three of R&W’s main points. As I have opportunity, I will add more. Please, read my papers looking for I actually said:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html and
http://www.journalof911studies.com/JonesAn...radeCenter.pdf)

[chipmunk stew]

It's been a week or so since we took time out from our 9/11 fact-bludgeoning for a refreshing old-timey Israel hate-fest:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11600

[Johnny Pixels]

It's been a week or so since we took time out from our 9/11 fact-bludgeoning for a refreshing old-timey Israel hate-fest:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11600

You can tell Dylan is a failed film student:

(http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207665,00.html)Steven Spielberg to Donate $1 Million to Israeli Relief Fund (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207665,00.html)

LOS ANGELES — A foundation created by filmmaker Steven Spielberg will donate $1 million to relief efforts in Israel as it battles with Hezbollah.

The Righteous Persons Foundation will make an initial contribution of $250,000 to the Jewish Federation of Los Angeles Israel Crisis Fund. The foundation will then follow up with gifts to the New Israel Fund and other organizations that are providing relief to those evacuated from northern Israel, said Marvin Levy, foundation spokesman.

+=+=+

Hey Spielberg. A.I. sucked. So did your hack job of Eyes Wide Shut.

[kevin]

Hey Spielberg. A.I. sucked. So did your hack job of Eyes Wide Shut.

but spielberg's films look so much like kubrick films they're hard to tell apart except perhaps to a dedicated researcher.

[Class]

It's been a week or so since we took time out from our 9/11 fact-bludgeoning for a refreshing old-timey Israel hate-fest:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11600

I wish I wasn't banned so I could respond to those before and after photos of Beruit. The people over there must not have heard about the controversy over the staged and false photos from Reuters to make Israel look like the bad guy.

And just noticed that a nutjob from another forum I post on is there...hmmm...

[Abbyas]

Originally Posted by chipmunk stew
It's been a week or so since we took time out from our 9/11 fact-bludgeoning for a refreshing old-timey Israel hate-fest:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...howtopic=11600

Oh. My. God.

I think Dylan hired Tom Cruise's publicist.

[delphi_ote]

I wish I wasn't banned so I could respond to those before and after photos of Beruit. The people over there must not have heard about the controversy over the staged and false photos from Reuters to make Israel look like the bad guy.

And just noticed that a nutjob from another forum I post on is there...hmmm...
Anything specific you'd like mentioned over there?

[T.A.M.]

I wonder why he didnt get into film school...lol

anybody who thinks Spielberg sucks, has got seriously strange ideas of what a good film is. You may not like a particular story, or not connect with the characters, but he is, without a doubt the greatest filmmaker of the last 2 generations.

Spielberg's worst, is lightyears ahead of anything Dylan could hope to create EOS.

[MarkyX]

Perry Logan posted an interesting video today on 9/11 Deniers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk5y8CWFvjg

[negativ]

So did your hack job of Eyes Wide Shut.

But he did a pretty good job with The Godfather and Videodrome, ya gotta admit. Blue Velvet wasn't half bad, either.

[MarkyX]

You can tell Dylan is a failed film student:

[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207665,00.html"]

Dylan is anti-semite?

That explains EVERYTHING. I wonder if the bastard knows that Arabs were killing jews before Israel was made? Or the Muslim Brotherhood and their connections with Adolf Hitler?

Ignorant children.

[Class]

Well I wanted to say that the area of Beruit that was hit so hard is only 1% of the city and it was an area that was heavily populated with Hezbollah fighters.

I wish I could find the link to a site that shows how Lebanon is staging photos and how Reuters is deliberately falsifying their captions to make Israel look like the bad guys. It was posted on JREF, but searches aren't pulling up anything. Littlegreenfootballs has a lot of stuff about it, though.

[negativ]

Perry Logan posted an interesting video today on 9/11 Deniers.

Should I have heard of this guy before? I went to perrylogan.org and found it quite hilarious on several levels, but I'm having a hard time figuring him out. Is is live, or is it Memorex? Is it real, or is it Spinal Tap? Either way, his sense of humor appeals to me. Thanks for the link~

[MarkyX]

He mocks the truth movement. It is somewhat real. Perry Logan is actually a 'fictional personality character' that the handsome gentlemen uses to mock right-wingers and other goofballs.

But he is serious in his message. He despises Republicans with a passion. But Perry Logan is not his real name.

We are fans of each other's work bascailly.

[MarkyX]

Speaking of which, I got an interesting email today about a possible interview on Screw Loose Change on an Israeli newspaper. They are interviewing Dylan and gang also.

Can anyone do a background on Haaretz Daily Newspaper? I don't want to walk myself into a media trap (aka Penn and Teller :) )

[ryanebelhar]

from that Israel thread on Loose Change

"Tell Gravy that Korey wants a live debate with him!!!"

really?

[Brainster]

Speaking of which, I got an interesting email today about a possible interview on Screw Loose Change on an Israeli newspaper. They are interviewing Dylan and gang also.

Can anyone do a background on Haaretz Daily Newspaper? I don't want to walk myself into a media trap (aka Penn and Teller :) )

It's left of center, but not nutty left. Generally considered credible.

[T.A.M.]

Guys;

I am presently rsearching Waleed Al-Shehri. Now I have compiled a time line based on the Moussaoui Trial data, and the Saudi Info, as well as the interview with his half brother, Abdel Rhaman...

What I am having trouble rectifying is this. There was a report of a Waleed Al-Shehri living in Vienna, in 1999, and one of his roomates was Ahmed Alghamdi. Now I can accept that perhaps this Waleed was another guy, perhaps the Saudi Pilot who graduated From Embree Riddle in 1997, but for that Waleed to also have a roomate Ahmed Alghamdi, same name as another of the hijackers, seems awfully "coincidental" guys got any info to help clarify this for me, or any thoughts???

[Dog Town]

John Smith= Mike Jones? I had 2 roomies named Mike Smith!

[Abbyas]

Trouble in Camp Freedom? Dylan unaware that Korey Rowe has been talking to Mark Roberts.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&st=0&#entry6938291

See last posts.

[T.A.M.]

Nice find Abbyas;

Korey is the weakest of the three, from the debating pov as well as how much of the LC mantra he knows.

Likely, if they agree to a debate all (highly unlikely), it will be D.A. or Bermas...

[njslim]

Haaretz = reliable, generally left of center, supports Labor Party

[ob986s]

Attention Gravy, I think your getting to him:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&st=0&#entry6929634

okay. be that as it may, the fact is, we don't have time for mark roberts. i'm more concerned in moving on and producing the third edition than squabbling with some "tour guide" in NYC who feels he's the moral majority, and spends most of his "viewer's guide" slinging conjecture and ad hominems.

i've already spoken to a number of people deeply entrenched in 9/11 this week, and I'm about to go interview a major one on Tuesday. is Mark Roberts to tell me that every single person I've talked to that has suffered because of the government is lying or crazy? who is he? who made him king?

mark roberts has nothing on this movement. he never has, and he never will, and he knows that deep inside. that's why he results to attacking our character and insinuating. he personally wrote Nancy Jo Sales and accused her of publishing a false record of Korey's military service, without ANY proof.

things like that are the reason i have no interest in debating mark roberts. popular mechanics will at least debate us on evidence, instead of personally attacking us on a constant basis without any proof.


Great work in that thread Abbyas I think your badge is coming

Jon

[T.A.M.]

I particularly love this comment from Dylan...

okay. be that as it may, the fact is, we don't have time for mark roberts. i'm more concerned in moving on and producing the third edition than squabbling with some "tour guide" in NYC who feels he's the moral majority, and spends most of his "viewer's guide" slinging conjecture and ad hominems.

i've already spoken to a number of people deeply entrenched in 9/11 this week, and I'm about to go interview a major one on Tuesday. is Mark Roberts to tell me that every single person I've talked to that has suffered because of the government is lying or crazy? who is he? who made him king?

mark roberts has nothing on this movement. he never has, and he never will, and he knows that deep inside. that's why he results to attacking our character and insinuating. he personally wrote Nancy Jo Sales and accused her of publishing a false record of Korey's military service, without ANY proof.

things like that are the reason i have no interest in debating mark roberts. popular mechanics will at least debate us on evidence, instead of personally attacking us on a constant basis without any proof.

[Longfellow]

I wish I could find the link to a site that shows how Lebanon is staging photos and how Reuters is deliberately falsifying their captions to make Israel look like the bad guys

Here's one.

zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

[MarkyX]

I particularly love this comment from Dylan...

okay. be that as it may, the fact is, we don't have time for mark roberts. i'm more concerned in moving on and producing the third edition than squabbling with some "tour guide" in NYC who feels he's the moral majority, and spends most of his "viewer's guide" slinging conjecture and ad hominems.

i've already spoken to a number of people deeply entrenched in 9/11 this week, and I'm about to go interview a major one on Tuesday. is Mark Roberts to tell me that every single person I've talked to that has suffered because of the government is lying or crazy? who is he? who made him king?

mark roberts has nothing on this movement. he never has, and he never will, and he knows that deep inside. that's why he results to attacking our character and insinuating. he personally wrote Nancy Jo Sales and accused her of publishing a false record of Korey's military service, without ANY proof.

things like that are the reason i have no interest in debating mark roberts. popular mechanics will at least debate us on evidence, instead of personally attacking us on a constant basis without any proof.

His Tuesday one is the same newspaper as mine :)

At least I think it's the same one.

[Class]

Here's one.

zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

That's the the one, thanks.:)

[Longfellow]

You're welcome.

[ryanebelhar]

I like how there is a phone conversation that 'proves' that 'pull it' means demolish a building.

even though the woman on the phone says it means "pull it down' which is 100% consistent with what has been said by debunkers

[Abbyas]

Attention Gravy, I think your getting to him:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...&#entry6929634

Can I just say, that thank god my head shot on my site is flattering?

[Regnad Kcin]

okay. be that as it may, the fact is, we don't have time for mark roberts. i'm more concerned in moving on and producing the third edition than squabbling with some "tour guide" in NYC who feels he's the moral majority, and spends most of his "viewer's guide" slinging conjecture and ad hominems.

i've already spoken to a number of people deeply entrenched in 9/11 this week, and I'm about to go interview a major one on Tuesday. is Mark Roberts to tell me that every single person I've talked to that has suffered because of the government is lying or crazy? who is he? who made him king?

mark roberts has nothing on this movement. he never has, and he never will, and he knows that deep inside. that's why he results to attacking our character and insinuating. he personally wrote Nancy Jo Sales and accused her of publishing a false record of Korey's military service, without ANY proof.

things like that are the reason i have no interest in debating mark roberts. popular mechanics will at least debate us on evidence, instead of personally attacking us on a constant basis without any proof.I've run the above through my Dylan-to-English translator:

"I will produce and distribute several videos that slander innocents, besmirch reputations, demean victims, and implicate countless people in the most heinous of crimes, and intend to continue to promote the work while ignoring detailed efforts to set me straight. But I won't have a face-off with a 'tour guide'."

[WildCat]

Trouble in Camp Freedom? Dylan unaware that Korey Rowe has been talking to Mark Roberts.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&st=0&#entry6938291

See last posts.
And did you see JDX's $0.02? (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6939851)

Mark Roberts deserves to die a traitors death for trying to suppress 9/11 families from seeking the Truth.

Im sure many families will be glad to let him know that to his face on 9/11.

How can that man look himself in the mirror is beyond me. Is he even a man? Or a boy...
This from a guy who won't reveal his name... :rolleyes:

[Brainache]

I think I saw some posts in the old LC Skeptic's forum where JDX revealed that he has been off work for a while on stress leave.
He also doesn't like women who wear black.
I have no time for blokes like him.

[Abbyas]

I don't think that these people realize that everytime they go to my site, I can see their ip address. After looking at JDX's comment, I know what time he popped over to my blog.

Not that I could do anything with it, but considering how paranoid the man his, I'm suprised that he looked at it at all.

Edit: I now know where he lives.

If I were Dylan Avery, I'd post the thing. Thank god, I'm not.

[Dog Town]

I think I saw some posts in the old LC Skeptic's forum where JDX revealed that he has been off work for a while on stress leave.
He also doesn't like women who wear black.

Good thing he's a mod for LC, or was! His black dress issue, sounds nothing short of a Kennedy! Bad things man............bad things!

[kevin]

I don't think that these people realize that everytime they go to my site, I can see their ip address. After looking at JDX's comment, I know what time he popped over to my blog.

Not that I could do anything with it, but considering how paranoid the man his, I'm suprised that he looked at it at all.

you could remind them of it by posting the first 3 octets of the ip address. Not enough to be significantly identifying but still be funny. just make sure they didn't run through an anonymizer or open proxy first.

of course you'd probably get banned.

[Brainster]

I particularly love this comment from Dylan...


mark roberts has nothing on this movement. he never has, and he never will, and he knows that deep inside. that's why he results to attacking our character and insinuating. he personally wrote Nancy Jo Sales and accused her of publishing a false record of Korey's military service, without ANY proof.

Looks like that particular bit will go down in Denial History. In fact, it was my co-blogger James B who advised Sales of Korey's bit of resume inflation. And James knows of what he speaks; he was with Korey in Afghanistan (did not know him though).

[Earl The Tall]

Can I just say, that thank god my head shot on my site is flattering?

You may, and might I say you are quite the looker.;)

[Dog Town]

Looks like that particular bit will go down in Denial History. In fact, it was my co-blogger James B who advised Sales of Korey's bit of resume inflation. And James knows of what he speaks; he was with Korey in Afghanistan (did not know him though).

Owwwch! That has gotta leave a mark! Is James about to be called up again?I hope K is!

[Kent1]

Can I just say, that thank god my head shot on my site is flattering?

Great Job Abby!

I caught the first post of the thread regarding the DNA profiles. They were obtained by getting profiles from the steering wheels of vehicles rented by the hijackers and from hair samples recovered from their hotel rooms.

http://www.911myths.com/html/hijackers_dna_profiles.html

Dylan is a real piece of work. Clearly he hasn't done his research, I suspect more bannings at his forum.

Also as a side note I have been speaking with Mark Waid.
For those who don't know who he is, he's Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer's lawyer on the Danger Able case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Danger
In short he stated to me "I have neither heard nor seen any credible evidence that would denote President Bush was specifically aware that the 9/11 attack was set to occur."

[Brainster]

Great Job Abby!

I caught the first post of the thread regarding the DNA profiles. They were obtained by getting profiles from the steering wheels of vehicles rented by the hijackers and from hair samples recovered from their hotel rooms.

http://www.911myths.com/html/hijackers_dna_profiles.html

I wish the Popular Mechanics' guy on the Charles Goyette show (http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?vid=158) had known that little tidbit. This is a painful one to listen to; a reminder that you've gotta have the information ready to hand. I also thought he could have gotten out of trouble on the DNA questioning by pointing out that the DNA that did not belong to the victims on Flight 77 included DNA from two brothers (and two of the hijackers that day were siblings).

[Kent1]

I wish the Popular Mechanics' guy on the Charles Goyette show (http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?vid=158) had known that little tidbit. This is a painful one to listen to; a reminder that you've gotta have the information ready to hand. I also thought he could have gotten out of trouble on the DNA questioning by pointing out that the DNA that did not belong to the victims on Flight 77 included DNA from two brothers (and two of the hijackers that day were siblings).

I think that's one of the problems with a face to face debate. You don't have a whole host of information ready at your fingers.

Another one of the many reasons why I won't agree to Ed Haas National Debate. I told him maybe they should debate each other.

[Gravy]

Trouble in Camp Freedom? Dylan unaware that Korey Rowe has been talking to Mark Roberts.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&st=0&#entry6938291

See last posts.
Great job in that thread, Abby. You got everything right.

JohnDoeX disagrees (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6939851)
Mark Roberts deserves to die a traitors death for trying to suppress 9/11 families from seeking the Truth.
Just before he falls asleep, does he imagine himself walking the aisles of his "airliner," deciding who he should let live, and who deserves a traitor's death?

Avery to Abby: (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6938139)
when did korey ever say he looks forward to arguments?
one more stupid statement like that and you're gone for good.
Here are some excerpts from my emails to Rowe. Reminder: he didn't challenge me to debate, he challenged his "critics." As a critic, I accepted. The other critics here are welcome to do the same.

To: korey@loosechange911.com
Subject: I accept your challenge of a videotaped debate.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:28:08 -0500

See my post at the JREF forum:http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1838028&postcount=1453

****
To: korey@loosechange911.com
Subject: RE: I accept your challenge of a videotaped debate.
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:56:16 -0500

Hi Korey.

Thanks for responding. Your blog post said that the recut was already up on Google, and I just spent some time looking for it. You may want to edit that part of your post so others don't get confused like I did.

As for Nancy Jo Sales, I have never communicated with her in any way, nor do I know of anyone who has communicated with her in any way. If your blog comments about me are based on that, they are wrong. The only issue I am aware of regarding a possible exaggeration of your military service is the one raised on the Screw Loose Change blog, and I didn't know about that until someone pointed it out to me a couple of days ago, after your blog post was up. Obviously, this is the main issue I have with you guys: you jump to conclusions before checking the facts.

Likewise, you (and Dylan) have publicly claimed that my name isn't Mark Roberts. It is, and I'm not the same guy as MarkyX or Pat from SLC, and I don't work for an intelligence agency, and I really am a licensed tour guide in New York, and I have no idea what issue you have with that.

There are several ways to do a debate quickly and inexpensively (my budget is zero). All that's needed is a room, a moderator, and a camera operator. The most difficult thing might be finding a moderator or moderators who are knowledgeable but impartial. Then again, there are probably lots of news media people who would like to participate. The Village Voice comes to mind. There was a (very) young reporter from U.S. News & World Report at Ground Zero who seemed to be doing a good job of covering the various opinions expressed. He's writing an article on the upcoming 5th anniversary. I have his email if necessary.

I assume that you guys have been contacted by [name deleted], who is the School of Visual Arts professor I mentioned in my JREF post. If you haven't been approached by him, let me know, because he has contacted me several times about doing a forum or debate with you three and I've said yes each time. I don't know where he stands on the issues. His early emails to me lead me to believe that he's a fan of the Scholars. He's doing a study of internet "viral video" and he thought that LC's popularity, and the questions it raises, would be a good subject for a debate or class seminar. The advantage is that he would do all the prep work. The disadvantage is that he'd control the format and final product.

I know you were interviewed by Fletcher Holmes last month. He also interviewed me and some NY911truth.org people at Ground Zero, and he said he'd be back to film on the 11th. Again, I don't know if he "takes sides" at all. His questions to me were impartial. But I bet he'd be willing to film. Not that others wouldn't, but having a third party involved might be wise.

Just some ideas.

Sincerely,
Mark Roberts

****

To: korey@loosechange911.com
Subject: RE: I accept your challenge of a videotaped debate.
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:58:24 -0500

(Excerpts from our last exchange. Bolding mine.)

Korey: Just a heads up, so that at ground zero you have enough material to
refute our claims. We will have 15,000 DVDs of the new cut and some old that are laying around, plus papers and cards and what not. This should be interesting. Also we are breaking (Jason, Dylan and I) into separate parts each with our own camera man. You might want to recruit a few more guys so that you can cover all three of us. I mean imagine the debates we can get into in front of people! Everyone will be so interested in what we are arguing about that they will go home and inform themselves. Which I hope is the point of your side.

Mark: Thanks for the heads up. I've been assuming you'd be splitting up for maximum coverage. The 911truth people also plan to have a large group there, and I assume other groups will attend. I have no interest in
trying to compete with or draw more attention to anyone, and I certainly won't be debating with anyone at Ground Zero on 9/11. To me that's a day of remembrance, period. I'm going to try to get several people together who are willing to stick with the leaders of the different groups and are comfortable being on camera, to give our side of the story when you give yours.

Korey: Actually, real quick, what is your point? What are you trying to do by what your doing? I know we are not 100% right, as neither are you. Are you just out to discredit us or our info? Or do you have your own conclusions about that day you are trying educate, or do you believe the 9/11 commission? Just my own personal interest. I don't have the time to go out and read your stuff. As I said I will send you the link when I have it.

Mark: Mostly I'm motivated by anger. I don't like seeing misinformation about 9/11 spread. It's not that Loose Change gets some things wrong, it gets every claim wrong. It absolutely promotes ignorance. And you reinforce that by saying even more bizarre things in interviews.
Dylan doesn't like that I pointed out his Jack Blood interview? Then why promote it on your website? Most of those claims can be disproven with the slightest bit of research, but you can't be bothered with that. That really gets to me. I don't think you guys, and your supporters, respect the victims, respect critical thinking, respect logic, or respect professionalism. That goes for the other "9-11 Truth" groups I've encountered. I kept track of what the NY911truth.org people said at Ground Zero on Saturday. In four hours they did not say one true thing to the public. Not one! And they have
the nerve to call themselves promoters of truth! I've never, ever seen anything as wrongly-named as the "9-11 Truth Movement."

I've used this analogy many times: If you were accused of a serious crime that you did not commit, would you want investigators in your case to be professionals motivated by the search for truth, or amateurs motivated by political concerns? Would you want your defense attorney to be an auto mechanic who owns a couple of law books, or would you want an experienced criminal trial lawyer? And most importantly, would you want to be judged by your standards of evidence, which allow conjecture, rumor, and hearsay?

This isn't a game. You're accusing people of mass-murder, and you don't have a shred of evidence to support your accusation. And by doing that you're giving moral support to the terrorists who did attack us and who say they'll keep doing it.

I see such intellectual laziness and intellectual cowardice from your side every day. Again, today, someone pointed me to this post by Dylan on the LC forum:
[Sarns] "Can you possibly believe that the PENTAGON was DEFENCELESS on 911, that there was NO on site radar or anti aircraft ability? At very least they would have stinger missels and certianly a lot more very sophisticated stuff. "

[Avery] "no, i can't believe it. but mark roberts does. he states it like it's fact. just like he states factually that there were no wargames on the morning of 9-11... the smartest tour guide in the world."

Wrong again. My reply: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1844174&postcount=1680

I don't know, Korey. I see a lot of moving of goalposts, but not much improvement overall. You haven't read my pieces? I wrote them for you guys, to encourage you to get your facts in order. I only had 3 weeks of looking into this stuff under my belt when I wrote the "Viewer Guide." The next one will be much more thorough and accurate. I hope your films will also be improvements.

–Mark

[mrfreeze]

Gravy, it seems you will be put under investigation!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3360
From Dylan:
mark roberts is either the most ignorant gullible person in the world or an agent. and considering he's a grown man that should have a wife and kids and, you know, a hobby of some kind besides harassing us, i'm going with agent.

that's right mark, i said it again. why get so upset if it's not true?

And from Squeakyboom:
Someone should go deep undercover and investigate him. I'm not talking about stalking or anything--you can be arrested for that!!!--but sign up for his "tour", maybe follow him for a few days--see if he meets with any shady characters or "suits"--PI type stuff!!! See what kinds of "friends" he has etc...

I would do it, but I don't live in NY!!!

[gtc]

By displaying that level of immaturity, Dylan has already lost the argument.

Its no wonder that he attracts people like Squeakyboom. Squeaky seems not to realise that if Mark Roberts was a secret agent then he would have the counter-espionage sufficient to outsmart anyone who who uses three exclamation marks (!!!) in a sentence.

Squeak also has an interesting theory about people in suits all being secret agents. I wonder how many people wear suits in NY on any given work day.

[negativ]

see if he meets with any shady characters or "suits"
I wonder how much it would cost to hire William B. Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Davis) for a day to lurk around strategic areas and exchange knowing glances with Mark a few times?

[kookbreaker]

I so gotta show up at GZ in a suit and shades.

[Belz...]

okay. be that as it may, the fact is, we don't have time for mark roberts. i'm more concerned in moving on and producing the third edition than squabbling with some "tour guide" in NYC who feels he's the moral majority, and spends most of his "viewer's guide" slinging conjecture and ad hominems.

I'll call the kettle and let it know...

i've already spoken to a number of people deeply entrenched in 9/11 this week, and I'm about to go interview a major one on Tuesday. is Mark Roberts to tell me that every single person I've talked to that has suffered because of the government is lying or crazy?

Lord, liar or lunatic. Or just plain wrong.

who is he? who made him king?

Okay, now I'm calling the pot.

mark roberts has nothing on this movement. he never has, and he never will, and he knows that deep inside.

Ooohh... now he can probe Gravy's thoughts.

that's why he results to attacking our character and insinuating. he personally wrote Nancy Jo Sales and accused her of publishing a false record of Korey's military service, without ANY proof.

Well, at least now we can say that his shift key works. Unless that was the caps lock...

[Belz...]

Can I just say, that thank god

Who ?

my head shot on my site is flattering?

Very.

[WildCat]

I wonder how much it would cost to hire William B. Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Davis) for a day to lurk around strategic areas and exchange knowing glances with Mark a few times?
Oh man, that would be funny! :D

[EvilBiker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Avery

No rebuttal sites yet. Go for it.

[chipmunk stew]

Can I just say, that thank god my head shot on my site is flattering?
Quite. I don't understand what Dylan means by "i rest my case" here. He rests his case that the person clowning him is a hottie skepchick rather than a pale, greasy nerdling? How does this help his case, much less rest it?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6938682

[Gravy]

I wonder how much it would cost to hire William B. Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Davis) for a day to lurk around strategic areas and exchange knowing glances with Mark a few times?
I'd rather have Ann B. Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_B._Davis), who could make a clean sweep of those yahoos.

I find it illustrative of Avery's limited experience and outlook that he has twice criticized me for not being married and having children. Well, tell that to the people who gather at GZ on Saturdays. Most of them are older than me, and they seem to find the time in their busy schedules to be fools. Hey, Avery, what if I'm gay? What if I don't want a wife and children? What if I'm divorced? What if my wife died? What if yo mama...ah, nevermind.

[mrfreeze]

So does anyone know exactly what got popul vuh and Sun Zoo banned? I don't feel like digging through their entire forum just on the off chance that an explanation is actually given.

[Gravy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Avery

No rebuttal sites yet. Go for it.
There were, but someone deleted them.

ETA: looks like several have been restored. Good work, JREF!

[negativ]

Sun Zoo banned
Really? Heh. Someone on this forum predicted this a few days ago, but I can't seem to find the post.

[Shrinker]

It was Vespaguy in the Killtown Banned thread.

[VespaGuy]

Where's my million dollars?!!!

[JamesB]

I'll call the kettle and let it know...



Lord, liar or lunatic. Or just plain wrong.



Okay, now I'm calling the pot.



Ooohh... now he can probe Gravy's thoughts.



Well, at least now we can say that his shift key works. Unless that was the caps lock...

Considering I have stated several times that I e-mailed Nancy Jo, and what I sent her has been publicly available on my blog for several months, why doesn't Korey e-mail me protesting any inaccuracies on my part?

[Belz...]

Quite. I don't understand what Dylan means by "i rest my case" here. He rests his case that the person clowning him is a hottie skepchick rather than a pale, greasy nerdling? How does this help his case, much less rest it?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11584&view=findpost&p=6938682

Hummm...

I can't believe abbyanne is a lady. It would take balls to put that stuff on a public website

Clever, mature comment if there ever was one.