Loose Change - Part IV

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm still wondering how these people manage to breathe properly.


My 14 yo son keeps getting invited to go to pakistan by his friend's uncle. His friend is from pakistan, and goes there often (several times a year to visit, and his sister's husband lives there-she went on a visit to concieve a child with him-weird), anyways, I'd like some of those deluded conspiracy theororists go off to pakistan instead to see why they want my son to go there so badly. I'm freaking paranoid :p Just an experiment, to see what happens.

[JamesB]

To the average Joe, Professor Jones is making an obscure political reference. What he is really doing, is placing himself on the right hand of the right hand of God.



OK - so what are we talking about here.

Is it about: who has control of the Scholars and its webpage? I agree that for the reasons given, it is likely that Jones has had a hand in this quote at least.

Or is it about: why did he pick that quote? Because of his religious beliefs. Or perhaps because of the perspective in which he sees what he's doing, informed by those religious beliefs. In other words, his take on the morality of what he's doing.
But aren't we dangerously close to ad hominem arguments here? "Look at the rabidly religious arrogant person Jones is... he must therefore be doing bad science".
I hope that this is not what was intended.

In order to accuse Jones of bad science, what he is doing would have to be science to begin with. The most we could logically accuse him of is "bad religion". The "Scholars" are a religious cult as much as a scientific or academic group.

http://www.jod911.com/evidence2.pdf

[Kent1]

In order to accuse Jones of bad science, what he is doing would have to be science to begin with. The most we could logically accuse him of is "bad religion". The "Scholars" are a religious cult as much as a scientific or academic group.

http://www.jod911.com/evidence2.pdf
Well put. His methodology and academic behavior are bad enough, but he (and others) tend to mix it with religious beliefs.
A powder keg for disaster.

[Cuddles]

I guarantee this will offend someone so if you're easily offended don't watch. It's "Cuddles" the fabric softener bear on robot chicken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU7Gnp-ykt8

It's lies I tell you, all lies.:boxedin:

[Kent1]

Does anyone know where this video came from?
Or have anymore of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

[WildCat]

Forget bukkake, how about a torrential downpour of stupidity?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11643
I left a comment on youtube. Killtown won't like it!

[The_Fire]

I guarantee this will offend someone so if you're easily offended don't watch. It's "Cuddles" the fabric softener bear on robot chicken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU7Gnp-ykt8

Heres (http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_746177_Robot_Chicken_Massage_Chair.htm) the entire episode....WARNING: NOT FOR WORKSAFE!!!!! AND NOT FOR THE EASILY OFFENDED!!! NO KIDS!!!!

[Brainster]

Forget bukkake, how about a torrential downpour of stupidity?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11643

Hah! That reminds me of when I was a kid on long car trips, I'd see a water tower off in the distance and it would seem to be moving right along with us. Of course, what's really happening is that the angle of view to something close is changing much more rapidly than the angle of view to something far away.

What a bunch of fruitcakes!

[Eos of the Eons]

If I could, well geez. I just watched some different angles of the 2nd plane hitting a tower. Are those guys stupid, blind, what? I don't get it. Why do they need to believe it was an "inside" job? Who do they think bin laden is? I'm watching this thread with morbid fascination, and I'm getting upset all over again.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I didn't "miss" that, that was my point. I was wondering if anyone else would make the connection. Why else would someone be quoting an obscure Secretary of Agriculture? Obviously Jones put that up because of his religious beliefs.

I'm impressed, James. "Who was the mormon prophet 20 years ago?" is at least as obscure as "Who was Secretary of Agriculture 50 years ago?". :)

But his religious beliefs are my religious beliefs. The mormon "Articles of Faith" state that "We believe in being honest". An admonition wich I'm fairly certain precludes fraudulently padding other peoples resumes to artificially inflate the viability of ones own pet theories. Every member of the church I have discussed Jones's behavior with (including another poster on this forum) has been offended at his antics. His attempt to put himself next to the prophet is crass and hypocritical given his recent actions.

[WildCat]

Who do they think bin laden is?
They think bin Laden is a CIA plant, I kid you not. Bukkaked with stupid...

[DavidJames]

Who do they think bin laden is?Chucksheen at LC thinks pretty much all the terroism has been CIA or U.S. sponsered.

[TK0001]

I'm sorry, but after the latest round of being bukkaked by stupid over there, the cost has gone up to a ponykeg. :boggled:

My humble apologies. I really should've warned you.

But dammit, you can't leave me alone over there. My only other ally was aquatus (someone should float an invite to this place by him), but they up and made him a mod, so now he has to be somewhat neutral.

I did see that Gravy made a brief appearance. Too bad he didn't stick around.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

My humble apologies. I really should've warned you.

But dammit, you can't leave me alone over there. My only other ally was aquatus (someone should float an invite to this place by him), but they up and made him a mod, so now he has to be somewhat neutral.

I did see that Gravy made a brief appearance. Too bad he didn't stick around.

I'm not bugging out just yet, but good grief thechadster, BZRK and An Urban Legend are like the Killtown Triplets. Though AROCES has his/her head on straight.

[Johnny Pixels]

Chucksheen at LC thinks pretty much all the terroism has been CIA or U.S. sponsered.

What do they make of the IRA?

[Shrinker]

Does anyone know where this video came from?
Or have anymore of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

I bet Steve Rosenbaum at www.cameraplanet.com would know where that came from. He'd probably also be able to answer the question we're all thinking.

[TK0001]

Why do they need to believe it was an "inside" job?

Because they hate the president. Admitting they're wrong would mean they would have to consider the fact that Dubya just might not be more of an evil madman than Ming the Merciless. This doesn't sit well with them.

[Belz...]

Bukkaked with stupid...

That's one very disgusting expression, you know.

Hah! That reminds me of when I was a kid on long car trips, I'd see a water tower off in the distance and it would seem to be moving right along with us. Of course, what's really happening is that the angle of view to something close is changing much more rapidly than the angle of view to something far away.

I don't get it. Hasn't everyone in the whole wide world seen this effect thousands of times ?

So now, they think the bridge was ADDED to the footage ? WHY ?? Why would those NWO globalist jooos do this ?

Why are these guys to apt in using Smacco's Rozar ?

[Belz...]

the fact that Dubya just might not be more of an evil madman than Ming the Merciless.

No one is.

[Dog Town]

This is from the LC board, on deciding what countries to escape to! To aviod The NWO!

I'd vote for China because:

1. Noone is stupid enough to attack it.

2. In China bad things do not happen, at least not according to media and government.

3. Therefor there are no conspiracies.

4. No election frauds, China is no democracy so no need to vote.

5. In China there is birth control, so in case you get 'daddy' by accident, the girl most likely gets an abortus (most likely in the non-medical-support way) so you are free to move to the next girl.


Priceless!

DT

[TK0001]

I'm not bugging out just yet, but good grief thechadster, BZRK and An Urban Legend are like the Killtown Triplets. Though AROCES has his/her head on straight.

Quads. You forget Sunofone.

If you want really crazy, venture out beyond the Conspiracy Theory section. I once made this post in the Crypto forum, under the heading "A sighting, please help":

It was last April, early in the morning. Dawn, actually. I was the only one awake at my house and glanced outside as I was making some coffee. I saw something unusual, so I did a double take. I caught a large mass, approximately 6 feet in height, quickly move around the corner of my house. It made a jumping motion.

I would've gone out to investigate it, but I was paralyzed with fear. To this day I haven't spoken of it to anyone.

In my quick glance, I was able to ascertain that whatever it was, it had fur. What stuck in my mind was how white it was. It was soft, white fur. I clearly remember that.

Also, in it's hands/claws/whatever was some sort of object. Some sort of recepticle, because in it were some weird colorful shapes.

I know it sounds crazy, but it's what I saw. I haven't seen it since, but every morning from that point on, I've been afraid to look outside from my kitchen window.

They ate it up, speculating all sorts of crazy things.

Then I told them I found a picture of the beast with two children in its grasp:

http://www.campbellsport.org/Chamber%20Corner-Events/Easter%20Egg%20Hunt%202003/Easter%20bunny%20visit%20006.jpg


...and THEY STILL TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT WAS!!!!

[kevin]

there was a freaking substation in WTC7. Anyone every heard a transformer explode?

http://205.243.100.155/frames/mpg/XfrmBlast1.mpg

check out the pictures of linkbelt crane that arcs a powerline. The discharge is through the base of the crane, into the reinforcing steel of the concrete and causes the concrete to explode.

http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm

[Kent1]

I bet Steve Rosenbaum at www.cameraplanet.com would know where that came from. He'd probably also be able to answer the question we're all thinking.

I might try that. I've asked him if I could purchase videos in the past. But he says they are working on some sort of arrangement. I guess they only go to video documentaries right now.

[Jennie C.]

I'm watching this thread with morbid fascination, and I'm getting upset all over again.

I think that's why I'm still reading through the earlier thread(s). It is indeed morbid fascination.

[Eos of the Eons]

Because they hate the president. Admitting they're wrong would mean they would have to consider the fact that Dubya just might not be more of an evil madman than Ming the Merciless. This doesn't sit well with them.


Right. Spoiled rotten brats that have nothing better to do. Try having Pol Pot as your leader, then try sitting around being a tard.

[Submersible]

I think that's why I'm still reading through the earlier thread(s). It is indeed morbid fascination.


What do you expect?
We are at WAR with Islam just because OBL and His 19 martyrs "attacked" this nation on 9/11.
And this forum continues to give those men the credit for having the ability to eliminate this nation's rational mind, along with 99% of the evidence from all FOUR crash sites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxsL_1i9CZQ
http://peacetakescourage.cf.huffingtonpost.com/animations/wwjd.html You hear that siren? This is the first time in 15 years that I heard a siren and didn't KNOW how to take care of the situation.
http://peacetakescourage.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema/wtc-7-small.gif

The most obvious feature that indicates a controlled demolition, is the almost even collapse of the building. This shows that all the supports for the structure failed at the same time. Some coincidence eh? This video evidence is so compelling that no other evidence is really necessary

You need your ass handed to you for following the USG's reports instead of believing what your own EYES can clearly see.
I never filled out a fire report where the roof fell and busted the foundation, much less have the ability to blow the god damned basement out of a structure.

http://courses.washington.edu/hypertxt/nypix/gndzero.html

Submersible-you need to keep in mind the membership agreement. Do not personalize the argument.

[Pardalis]

You need your ass handed to you for following the USG's reports instead of believing what your own EYES can clearly see.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/888644bed1fba333b.jpg

[sleahead]

I might try that. I've asked him if I could purchase videos in the past. But he says they are working on some sort of arrangement. I guess they only go to video documentaries right now.

The person who posted that clip posted this in the comments section:

Mintaka33 (1 hour ago)
This came from a show aired on SBS in Australia on the first anniversary of 911

[Johnny Pixels]

We are at WAR with Islam just because OBL and His 19 martyrs "attacked" this nation on 9/11.


False. No-one is at war with Islam. No-one claims to be at war with Islam, except of course "truth" seekers and terrorists.

[StoneWT]

The most obvious feature that indicates a controlled demolition, is the almost even collapse of the building. This shows that all the supports for the structure failed at the same time. Some coincidence eh? This video evidence is so compelling that no other evidence is really necessary


How bloody stupid can one person be? Have you bothered to check interviews with personnel on the scene before and after WTC 7 collapsed? Have you bothered to check other video and photographs besides that particular clip? What are your qualifications for your video analysis (INSERT: NONE)?

[gumboot]

How bloody stupid can one person be? Have you bothered to check interviews with personnel on the scene before and after WTC 7 collapsed? Have you bothered to check other video and photographs besides that particular clip? What are your qualifications for your video analysis (INSERT: NONE)?


The most depressing thing about the CTers is how they all think they're expert photographic interpreters just because they've looked at a few videos.

I worked damn hard to earn the meagre interpretation skills I have...

To suggest such vastly superior skills can appear as if by magic is insulting...:mad:

-Andrew

[The_Fire]

Anyone mind taking a look at this (http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-rwB9Keolc6Pl1UUEGqTyCEM-?cq=1) and tell me what you think?

And no, that's not the articleseries I've been planing for a while, but I had to rant a bit.

[T.A.M.]

The_Fire:

First off...nice commentary. WEll said, well articulated. Apart from a few grammatical errors, which we all are guilty of in this superspeed typing world, I would correct the "Where Where" in the title to "Where Were" simply because it is your title.

APart from that, when you said they got most of their info from the right, far right wing, did you mean "left" as alot of their info seems to come from "left" wing sources, such as AFP, and Prisonplanet, etc...

overall, a fine posting.

[jhunter1163]

The_Fire:

Might want to clean up the spelling/punctuation a little. I know that's the first thing to go in a rant though. Or, you could leave it as is... it's an excellent stream-of-consciousness piece. The misspellings add to the sense of outrage. It looks as if you just sat down and poured it out as fast as you could type. Still and all, excellent bit.

[MarkyX]

Just had an interview with an Israeli newspaper that interviewed Dylan also.

He mentioned to me in the interview that Dylan told him that Mark Roberts and I are the same person :)

Anyone know hebrew?

[gumboot]

Just had an interview with an Israeli newspaper that interviewed Dylan also.

He mentioned to me in the interview that Dylan told him that Mark Roberts and I are the same person :)

Anyone know hebrew?


Some of the guys in the Politics subforum probably do - just look for a thread about Palestine/Israel... ;)

-Andrew

[MarkyX]

Great :)

I just need to patient now. Never thought I would see my name in hebrew.

[StoneWT]

Fire,

Excellent rant. The LC kids will see the next few months as their last bit of fame. Their publicity is being matched with debunking.

Mark,

It's great that you were interviewed. I wonder if you could trick Dylan and Gang into a radio debate.

[JamesB]

Just had an interview with an Israeli newspaper that interviewed Dylan also.

He mentioned to me in the interview that Dylan told him that Mark Roberts and I are the same person :)

Anyone know hebrew?

I thought I was Mark Roberts?

[T.A.M.]

Nice little post by Perry Logan over at the SLC Forum. Well articulated...nice job Perry...

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=255

...and if you wanna see who the LCers worship (besides D.A.) take a look here...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11913

[Jennie C.]

What do you expect?
We are at WAR with Islam just because OBL and His 19 martyrs "attacked" this nation on 9/11.
And this forum continues to give those men the credit for having the ability to eliminate this nation's rational mind, along with 99% of the evidence from all FOUR crash sites.
(snipped links for space reasons)
You need your ass handed to you for following the USG's reports instead of believing what your own EYES can clearly see.
I never filled out a fire report where the roof fell and busted the foundation, much less have the ability to blow the god damned basement out of a structure.

Wow! Me, a humble newbie can't even post URL's yet and I got all this. I'm honored.

We are at WAR with ISLAM because they (wacko Muslims) ATTACKED Our Country, not first on 9/11 but in 1979 !! 9/11 was the Last Straw. And "OBL and his martyrs" only (in QUOTES) attacked (unQUOTES) this nation? What was killing just under 3000 people about? Hugs?

What MY OWN EYES saw was 2 bloody airplanes flying into two, rather architecurally ugly, buildings full of my fellow citizens (not to mention citizens of a bunch of other countries, INCLUDING Muslim countries) and killing a helluva lot of them.

Plus MY OWN EYES saw a helluva lotta smoke coming out of the Pentagon. And while LOOSE CHANGE talks about Secretary Rumsfeld's "being unavailable for comment," Mr. Rumsfeld was helping to carry stretchers of his comrades & colleagues out of the building, despite his age and not-obvious fitness for doing so. Because he thought it was WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE.

And MY OWN EYES have seen the picture taken by "just" a housewife, with a brand-new digital camera, who was reading the instructions and ran out to the porch after a BOOM, to take a quick snap of a gout of BLACK SMOKE on her horizon. (can't post pix yet, maybe someone else will supply...otherwise, I will when I can).

And WHAT MY OWN EYES have read since then is a never-ending bunch of apologists, fear-mongers and just-plain-sniveling-weasels who think there-just-couldn't-be-people-that-mean-out-there, it just HAS TO BE Some Sort of A Guvmint Thing spouting damn NONSENSE that is so convoluted that Machiavelli would laugh himself silly over them.

(/rant). Sorry folks, sometimes I've just had ENOUGH.

[T.A.M.]

:woo

We all get like that sometimes. It grinds on you, when you can show them all the evidence in the world, but they just go cherry pick some other "blip" on the radar so to speak.

3 more posts to go, and you can link, link, link...lol

[kevin]

I thought I was Mark Roberts?

I dunno which would be funnier at a non-9/11 GZ event:

a) everyone wearing "i'm mark roberts" buttons, or
b) everyone, except mark, wearing "i'm not mark roberts" buttons

[Class]

How about when the truthers call Mark Roberts up to the podium or microphone to debate, everyone walks up?

[60hzxtl]

Anyone mind taking a look at this (http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-rwB9Keolc6Pl1UUEGqTyCEM-?cq=1) and tell me what you think?

And no, that's not the articleseries I've been planing for a while, but I had to rant a bit.

The three stooges!

Berman, Avery & Rowe!

Now why didn't I think of that!

I'm so jealous!

[Brainster]

I thought I was Mark Roberts?

It's Quadrophenia, then, because I've been accused of being MR as well, although never by Dylan. Somebody said they detected similarities in our way of writing. Possibly that we seldom misspell words or make grammatical errors?

Curse you, classical education!

[60hzxtl]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11643

I have good news!

I just looked out my window, and the bridge is not moving tonight!

(With apologies to the engineers, it is moving, just not the way the CT'ers would have you believe.)

[Gravy]

And this forum continues to give those men the credit for having the ability to eliminate this nation's rational mind, along with 99% of the evidence from all FOUR crash sites.
I m goin down, down, down, down, down, down
I m goin down, down, down, down, down, down

"Going Down" –Freddie King
Hit the chicken switch! (http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/operating/attackcenter/controlstation/emergblow.html) Emergency blow! Surface! Surface!

[MarkyX]

It's Quadrophenia, then, because I've been accused of being MR as well, although never by Dylan. Somebody said they detected similarities in our way of writing. Possibly that we seldom misspell words or make grammatical errors?

Curse you, classical education!

I don't know why I am compared to Mark Roberts. I'm a bigger ******* then he is.

Or maybe because I am the real Mark Roberts because of that...CONSPRIACY!

[Gravy]

Or maybe because I am the real Mark Roberts because of that...CONSPRIACY!
Clue: the real Mark Roberts won a spelling bee in fifth grade. :)

[Abbyas]

I don't know why I am compared to Mark Roberts. I'm a bigger ******* then he is.

Dunno. At ground zero, sometimes when the truthers get out of line by harassing someone who saw the planes hit or shaking their head at actual evidence or ripping up our papers, Gravy runs around and pantses all of them. Really quite a jerk.

[MarkyX]

Clue: the real Mark Roberts won a spelling bee in fifth grade. :)

CONSPIRACY

[JamesB]

The three stooges!

Berman, Avery & Rowe!

Now why didn't I think of that!

I'm so jealous!

I was thinking dumb and dumber... and dumberer.

[Kent1]

The new explosion video is on the new 911Witness Video.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/2392#comment

[gumboot]

CONSPIRACY

Please cite your evidence. You can't just accuse Mark Roberts of conspiring to win a spelling bee.

Let's see your numbers, buddy. :cool:

-Andrew

[TjW]

There's your proof, right there. Anyone who can win a spelling bee with numbers... everyone else had to use letters. It was obviously an inside job.

[delphi_ote]

There's your proof, right there. Anyone who can win a spelling bee with numbers... everyone else had to use letters. It was obviously an inside job.
Nice!
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/delphi_ote/beer.gif

[Belz...]

"5. In China there is birth control, so in case you get 'daddy' by accident, the girl most likely gets an abortus (most likely in the non-medical-support way) so you are free to move to the next girl."

Again, a great show of maturity and responsability by the twoofers...

[60hzxtl]

Again, a great show of maturity and responsability by the twoofers...


Part of the Do-Over mentality.

Consequences to my actions? Wait while I change the rules.

[Belz...]

What do you expect?
We are at WAR with Islam just because OBL and His 19 martyrs "attacked" this nation on 9/11.
And this forum continues to give those men the credit for having the ability to eliminate this nation's rational mind, along with 99% of the evidence from all FOUR crash sites.

So, what now ? These people are just cave monkeys so they can't possibly harm you ? Get real.

The most obvious feature that indicates a controlled demolition, is the almost even collapse of the building. This shows that all the supports for the structure failed at the same time. Some coincidence eh? This video evidence is so compelling that no other evidence is really necessary

If you don't have knowledge of demolitions or building construction I don't see how you can claim this with a straight face. Do you ?

You need your ass handed to you for following the USG's reports instead of believing what your own EYES can clearly see.

You're RIGHT! And since I must trust my eyes, it is now OBVIOUS to me that the earth really is flat and that the sun RISES in the morning, probably from its journey in Hades. After all, it all makes sense.

I never filled out a fire report where the roof fell and busted the foundation, much less have the ability to blow the god damned basement out of a structure.

To which other 110-storey building are you referring ?

[Belz...]

Anyone mind taking a look at this (http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-rwB9Keolc6Pl1UUEGqTyCEM-?cq=1) and tell me what you think?

And no, that's not the articleseries I've been planing for a while, but I had to rant a bit.

Well, not to be rude, but I find rather ironic to speak positively of deities and witchcraft while simultaneously dissing CTers. It's your thing, of course, but the first thought that came to mind, and I didn't even realise you wrote it at that point, was "credibility ?".

Sorry about that, but as your sig says : "evidence first, woo later". To me, it's "evidence first, woo never."

[mrfreeze]

Again, a great show of maturity and responsability by the twoofers...

Is it just me, or after reading that whole post does it seem like it's sarcastic and mocking to the whole idea of the thread? I think it may be made by one of us, or we may have just found a CTer with some wit!

[realitybites]

... or we may have just found a CTer with some wit!
Thanks for putting a smile on my face this morning MrFreeze. :)

Unfortunately, CTers/ists are far too focused on imagining how important they and their cause are to bother with anything resembling a sense of humor.

[Mancman]

Has anyone done a critique of this Barrie Zwicker film - 'The Great Conspiracy'?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623

[MarkyX]

Good old Barrie. I remember seeing him a few years ago and thought was a nut.

Should be interesting to watch. I love the whole "planned from a cave" bit already. I can tell this guy already needs a thick blunt object to the head.

[brodski]

Good old Barrie. I remember seeing him a few years ago and thought was a nut.

Should be interesting to watch. I love the whole "planned from a cave" bit already. I can tell this guy already needs a thick blunt object to the head.
Is there actually any credible evidence that OBL actually planned 9/11?
Approved of- defiantly, ordered- most probably, funded- almost certainly, responsible for- absolutely, but actually planned?
Given AQ's loose organisation, is OBL really such a "hands on" manager?
Does any official body actually claim that OBL had a direct hand in arranging the specific attacks of 9/11?

[MarkyX]

I really hate to bring this up, but I uploaded the history document on the Hamburg cell on YouTube.

Bascailly they get their story from one of the hijackers who was replaced by Hani (and he didn't get into the US) who was captured in Pakistan.

Osama Bin Laden called 9/11 the "Planes Operation" and wanted to go after the White House, the Pentagon, and the Two Towers. He really wanted the Two Towers mainly two things:

- Lots of Jews would be killed
- One messed up economy

The problem is that the information is second hand information, so they can't really use it as proof (hard evidence yet again). But Osama Bin Laden did want the planes to be used as missiles at certain points.

[CurtC]

Does anyone know where this video came from?
Or have anymore of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I
The thing I notice is that at least one of the towers had already collapsed at that point. I looked for clues that could indicate whether both towers had already collapsed, but couldn't see anything to judge by. I think this video is being used to show that there were bombs in the towers, right?

[60hzxtl]

Is there actually any credible evidence that OBL actually planned 9/11?
Approved of- defiantly, ordered- most probably, funded- almost certainly, responsible for- absolutely, but actually planned?
Given AQ's loose organisation, is OBL really such a "hands on" manager?
Does any official body actually claim that OBL had a direct hand in arranging the specific attacks of 9/11?

I see that as part of the obfuscation (not on your part) but on the CT crowd) that look and see that OBL is not charged with 9/11 on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

They see 9/11 not as an act of war, but as a crime to be prosecuted.

[brodski]

I see that as part of the obfuscation (not on your part) but on the CT crowd) that look and see that OBL is not charged with 9/11 on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

They see 9/11 not as an act of war, but as a crime to be prosecuted.
I see it at both, but (as an analogy) Jerry Adams and Martin McGuiness where never prosecuted for the rocket attack on 10 Downing street, that doesn’t men they didn’t authorise it, it's just that those that carried out the attack where probably not directly order to do so by the IRA army council, like all effective management structure, delegation is key in terrorist organisations. Hopefully the US will show a little ore backbone, and when you finally catch OBL, you won't be giving him a seat in your senate.

[DavidJames]

US will show a little ore backbone, and when you finally catch OBL, you won't be giving him a seat in your senate. No he will need to be elected like all the other idiots we have in congress.

[VespaGuy]

Sorry to derail, but has anyone looked at the events that Dylan & Co have planned for the weekend of the 11th?

Friday, Sept.8th
7:00 – 7:30 Welcome/Introduction/Actions
7:30 – 8:00 Al Fonz of 9/11 Vets For Truth: 9/11 As Pretext For Iraq Invasion
8:00 – 8:45 Korey Rowe veteran of the Iraq and Afganistan War.
8:45 – 10:00 Ralph Schoenman: 9/11 and the Attack on Lebanon

Saturday, Sept.9th
3:00 – 5:30 Jim Marrs, Tom Foti, Chris Emery, Howie Hawkins
7:00 – 8:00 Barry Zwicker
8:00 – 9:00 First responders
9:00 – 9:30 9/11 Victims Family Members

Sunday Sept. 10th
11:30 – 12:15 9/11 Truth Breakthrough Press Conference to feature all major speakers
1:00 – 5:00 Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Jesse Richard, Ralph Schoenman, Jim Marrs, Barry Zwicker, Ian Wood , Kevin Barrett, Faiz Kahn, Carl Person, Les Jamison.
6:30 – 7:00 Introduction and Ground Zero Plan
7:00 – 7:30 Alex Jones – progress in the movement
7:30 – 9:30 Preview of LC Final Cut


If my math is correct, that's over 15 hours of speakers and video. And how much of that time is given to the family members of the people that the film is "dedicted to"?

Exactly one half hour.

Glad they squeeze them in.

(Of course, considering how ridiculous Loose Change is, it may be impossible to find anyone to fill that half hour)

[T.A.M.]

I would say the plan went something like this.

OBl, AL-Zwahiri, and KSM, all sitting around in a room. KSM speaks to OBL...

KSM: Most wonderful. We have devised a plan that will bring great honor to Allah.

OBL: Go on.

KSM: We have the logistics in place to set up a number of hijackings or US airplanes.

OBL: Yes...

KSM: The Matyrs, Allah be praised, will then take these hijacked aircraft and crash them into buildings of your choice.

OBL: A most wonderful plan. I should think the towers of New York, their financial capital, as well as the pentagon and the residence of their leader would all be excellent choices.

KSM: As you wish...

Well, maybe not exactly like that, but that is the extent I see Osama being involved in 9/11. Still guilty, as the leader, and should suffer the same fate as those who planned the whole thing and carried it out...

[Kent1]

Jones has been adding some funny new additions to his paper.
The new firefighter photos I guess are suposed to be looking at the hot thermite. LOL!!

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Blast from the past....here is an old version of Jones paper where he still had the contrast adjusted Rob Miller photo before we caught him. LOL!!
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/WTC-Jones19mar06.htm

[Kent1]

I would say the plan went something like this.

OBl, AL-Zwahiri, and KSM, all sitting around in a room. KSM speaks to OBL...

KSM: Most wonderful. We have devised a plan that will bring great honor to Allah.

OBL: Go on.

KSM: We have the logistics in place to set up a number of hijackings or US airplanes.

OBL: Yes...

KSM: The Matyrs, Allah be praised, will then take these hijacked aircraft and crash them into buildings of your choice.

OBL: A most wonderful plan. I should think the towers of New York, their financial capital, as well as the pentagon and the residence of their leader would all be excellent choices.

KSM: As you wish...

Well, maybe not exactly like that, but that is the extent I see Osama being involved in 9/11. Still guilty, as the leader, and should suffer the same fate as those who planned the whole thing and carried it out...

Osama helped pick the location and some of the hijackers according to the testimony from KSM and Ramzi Binalshibh.
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jan/14-610042.html

... KSM acknowledges formally joining al Qaeda, in late 1998 or early 1999, and states that soon afterward, Bin Ladin also made the decision to support his proposal to attack the United States using commercial airplanes as weapons.

... Bin Ladin summoned KSM to Kandahar in March or April 1999 to tell him that al Qaeda would support his proposal. The plot was now referred to within al Qaeda as the "planes operation." (p. 154)

... KSM's original concept of using one of the hijacked planes to make a media statement was scrapped, but Bin Ladin considered the basic idea feasible. Bin Ladin, Atef, and KSM developed an initial list of targets. These included the White House, the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon, and the World Trade Center. According to KSM, Bin Ladin wanted to destroy the White House and the Pentagon, KSM wanted to strike the World Trade Center, and all of them wanted to hit the Capitol. No one else was involved in the initial selection of targets.

Bin Ladin also soon selected four individuals to serve as suicide operatives: Khalid al Mihdhar, Nawaf al Hazmi, Khallad, and Abu Bara al Yemeni. (p. 155)

[WildCat]

Is there actually any credible evidence that OBL actually planned 9/11?
IIRC, Khalid Sheik Mohammed actually planned 9/11, and he was captured in Pakistan and is currently in US custody.

[LashL]

Sorry to derail, but has anyone looked at the events that Dylan & Co have planned for the weekend of the 11th?


Saturday, Sept.9th
3:00 – 5:30 Jim Marrs, Tom Foti, Chris Emery, Howie Hawkins
7:00 – 8:00 Barry Zwicker
8:00 – 9:00 First responders
9:00 – 9:30 9/11 Victims Family Members

If my math is correct, that's over 15 hours of speakers and video. And how much of that time is given to the family members of the people that the film is "dedicted to"?

Exactly one half hour.

Glad they squeeze them in.

(Of course, considering how ridiculous Loose Change is, it may be impossible to find anyone to fill that half hour)


Yes, I noticed that, too. 16 hours of 9/11 deniers and video, and a paltry 30 minutes for the as-yet-unidentified family members.

Pretty pathetic, isn't it?

[Pardalis]

Do they get paid for these conferences BTW?

[azazal]

Yes, I noticed that, too. 16 hours of 9/11 deniers and video, and a paltry 30 minutes for the as-yet-unidentified family members.

Pretty pathetic, isn't it?

Is it wrong of me to hope that that 30 minutes with the famliy members will be primaily Dylan getting kicked in the crotch by the famlies?

[WildCat]

Yet another idiotic thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11911) over at the loosers forum.

[StoneWT]

I'm assuming Chris Emery will be speaking on the OKC Bombing. I've met him and his work regarding the bombing is excellent.

I would expect the half hour to be packed with CT family members and victims like William Rodriguez. I doubt they would risk their last shot at fame by letting an angry victim or family member speak against the CT BS.

[Pardalis]

Who is paying for these conferences? Muslim "charity" associations?

[Belz...]

Is it wrong of me to hope that that 30 minutes with the famliy members will be primaily Dylan getting kicked in the crotch by the famlies?

Yes it is. But no one here minds.

[LashL]

Is it wrong of me to hope that that 30 minutes with the famliy members will be primaily Dylan getting kicked in the crotch by the famlies?

Why, no. No, it isn't.

[LashL]

Yes it is. But no one here minds.

LOL - I hadn't seen your response when I made mine. But, hey, this is JREF, we're allowed to disagree, unlike at the LC forum :)

[Hellbound]

LOL - I hadn't seen your response when I made mine. But, hey, this is JREF, we're allowed to disagree, unlike at the LC forum :)

Well, not really.

We ban anyone who even thinks about disagreeing here, but we have a really inefficient bueracracy...it'll take a few dozen years to process the paperwork.

We'll be editing your post and banning you shortly. Please remain seated until the forum has come to a complete stop.

[JamesB]

Sorry to derail, but has anyone looked at the events that Dylan & Co have planned for the weekend of the 11th?

Friday, Sept.8th
7:00 – 7:30 Welcome/Introduction/Actions
7:30 – 8:00 Al Fonz of 9/11 Vets For Truth: 9/11 As Pretext For Iraq Invasion
8:00 – 8:45 Korey Rowe veteran of the Iraq and Afganistan War.
8:45 – 10:00 Ralph Schoenman: 9/11 and the Attack on Lebanon

Saturday, Sept.9th
3:00 – 5:30 Jim Marrs, Tom Foti, Chris Emery, Howie Hawkins
7:00 – 8:00 Barry Zwicker
8:00 – 9:00 First responders
9:00 – 9:30 9/11 Victims Family Members

Sunday Sept. 10th
11:30 – 12:15 9/11 Truth Breakthrough Press Conference to feature all major speakers
1:00 – 5:00 Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Jesse Richard, Ralph Schoenman, Jim Marrs, Barry Zwicker, Ian Wood , Kevin Barrett, Faiz Kahn, Carl Person, Les Jamison.
6:30 – 7:00 Introduction and Ground Zero Plan
7:00 – 7:30 Alex Jones – progress in the movement
7:30 – 9:30 Preview of LC Final Cut


If my math is correct, that's over 15 hours of speakers and video. And how much of that time is given to the family members of the people that the film is "dedicted to"?

Exactly one half hour.

Glad they squeeze them in.

(Of course, considering how ridiculous Loose Change is, it may be impossible to find anyone to fill that half hour)

Are Judy Wood and Jim Fetzer going to actually share the same stage? Are they going to debate each other?

[StoneWT]

Is anyone here going to crash the party? Maybe make some XL-sized posters of that hilarious parody of the LC B&W poster that was in one of the topics here? How about some choice quotes showing how little they care about the victims? I was also thinking that we could buy the largest portable DVD players available and continuously play the video of the CTs being horribly insensitive to the victims. Of course, do it in a public area so they can't do anything about it.

[60hzxtl]

Who is paying for these conferences? Muslim "charity" associations?

The possibility exists that some of the funding for LTW comes from bulk "purchases" of the DVD, from such an organization.

There are a lot of ways to launder money.

Audit Dylan Avery.

[60hzxtl]

Yet another idiotic thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11911) over at the loosers forum.


I'll say.

Look at the paint scheme on any UAL plane even now - the dark navy blue top is made to look as if there are no windows.

[JamesB]

Jones has been adding some funny new additions to his paper.
The new firefighter photos I guess are suposed to be looking at the hot thermite. LOL!!

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Blast from the past....here is an old version of Jones paper where he still had the contrast adjusted Rob Miller photo before we caught him. LOL!!
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/WTC-Jones19mar06.htm


Maybe they are roasting marshmallows? Rescue workers like s'mores too!

[T.A.M.]

He is likely modifying it to counter the Reynolds/Wood blasting...lol that was like a car wreck...hard to watch, but you couldnt turn away...

[azazal]

Well, not really.

We ban anyone who even thinks about disagreeing here, but we have a really inefficient bueracracy...it'll take a few dozen years to process the paperwork.

We'll be editing your post and banning you shortly. Please remain seated until the forum has come to a complete stop.

The ninjas have either gotten lazy, or have been buried under a CD of paper work.

[Abbyas]

Originally Posted by VespaGuy
Sorry to derail, but has anyone looked at the events that Dylan & Co have planned for the weekend of the 11th?

Friday, Sept.8th
7:00 – 7:30 Welcome/Introduction/Actions
7:30 – 8:00 Al Fonz of 9/11 Vets For Truth: 9/11 As Pretext For Iraq Invasion
8:00 – 8:45 Korey Rowe veteran of the Iraq and Afganistan War.
8:45 – 10:00 Ralph Schoenman: 9/11 and the Attack on Lebanon

Saturday, Sept.9th
3:00 – 5:30 Jim Marrs, Tom Foti, Chris Emery, Howie Hawkins
7:00 – 8:00 Barry Zwicker
8:00 – 9:00 First responders
9:00 – 9:30 9/11 Victims Family Members

Sunday Sept. 10th
11:30 – 12:15 9/11 Truth Breakthrough Press Conference to feature all major speakers
1:00 – 5:00 Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Jesse Richard, Ralph Schoenman, Jim Marrs, Barry Zwicker, Ian Wood , Kevin Barrett, Faiz Kahn, Carl Person, Les Jamison.
6:30 – 7:00 Introduction and Ground Zero Plan
7:00 – 7:30 Alex Jones – progress in the movement
7:30 – 9:30 Preview of LC Final Cut


If my math is correct, that's over 15 hours of speakers and video. And how much of that time is given to the family members of the people that the film is "dedicted to"?

Exactly one half hour.

Glad they squeeze them in.

(Of course, considering how ridiculous Loose Change is, it may be impossible to find anyone to fill that half hour)


Gravy, RealityBites and I have met Tom Foti (September 9th). He's the guy that tries to physically stop us from putting up our own signs. I talked to him what he believed and that told me he didn't know. I did find out that he thought Hunter S. Thompson was murdered. I can't imagine what he'll be talking about.

Boys, do you recognize any of these other names?

We really only know these people as Vest Guy, Other Vest Guy, Fishing Hat Man, Crazy Bike Lady, etc, etc.

[defaultdotxbe]

1:00 – 5:00 Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Jesse Richard, Ralph Schoenman, Jim Marrs, Barry Zwicker, Ian Wood , Kevin Barrett, Faiz Kahn, Carl Person, Les Jamison.
that could get interesting

abby: youve had run-ins with les jamison as well, right?

[chipmunk stew]

Gravy, RealityBites and I have met Tom Foti (September 9th). He's the guy that tries to physically stop us from putting up our own signs. I talked to him what he believed and that told me he didn't know. I did find out that he thought Hunter S. Thompson was murdered. I can't imagine what he'll be talking about.

Boys, do you recognize any of these other names?

We really only know these people as Vest Guy, Other Vest Guy, Fishing Hat Man, Crazy Bike Lady, etc, etc.
These events are open to the public, right? I wonder if they'll allow photography.

You know what would be really funny--recreate Gypsy Taub's "whistleblower" act with some choice questions about the movement.

[60hzxtl]

I did find out that he thought Hunter S. Thompson was murdered.

Ha!

If you ever worked with him, the only surprise was about his suicide was that it took him so long.

[T.A.M.]

someone should go down with a camcorder, or at least a little micro audio recorder...

[MarkyX]

These events are open to the public, right? I wonder if they'll allow photography.

You know what would be really funny--recreate Gypsy Taub's "whistleblower" act with some choice questions about the movement.

Wow..

I love your irony.

[VespaGuy]

These events are open to the public, right?

I was thinking of attending in a suit and tie. With dark glasses. And maybe an ear piece.

[Hellbound]

I was thinking of attending in a suit and tie. With dark glasses. And maybe an ear piece.

Hmmm.

I have uniforms and a Kevlar helmet.

:)

[60hzxtl]

As long as nobody recreates Gypsy's 4th of July Flag stunt, my lunch will stay down.


And raucous laughter after some real woo, followed by an earnest look can keep 'em guessing, along with glances around to see if you were the only one to get the joke.

[Jennie C.]

From the Wayback Machine of this thread (post 2715 by Dr Adequate), two video clips, one of the South Tower collapsing and another of a REAL controlled demolition of a skyscraper. The button even pushed by a young, Boy Scout.

(I can't quote external URLs yet)

My reaction to the for-real CD is: WOW! Cool video. I've only seen a couple of these on TV news (Three Rivers Stadium is the one that springs to mind...boy that was sad), but this let me see AND hear what the pop-pops really sound like.

Just like you never get to hear the sonic boom when the space shuttle lands (because the commentators never shut their yaps), I'd never heard all the noise from a CD before. And the video showed the flashes like, well, they looked almost like, fireflies.

Very interesting, Dr A, thanks for posting

(and I'm even a Browns fan ... but somebody stole our team)


eta to TRY to add the link to the original post on Jref, but that seems to be considered an external link. By the time I figure it out, I'll have 15 posts (this being 13)

[chipmunk stew]

Boys, do you recognize any of these other names?
I don't recognize any others, but some have internet presence:
Jim Marrs (http://www.jerrypippin.com/Jim%20Marrs%202.jpg), author of Psi Spies (http://www.alienzoo.com/image.php?productid=18182), Alien Agenda: Investigating the Extraterrestrial Presence Among Us (http://i.biblio.com/m/65/0061096865.jpg), Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0881846481.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg), Inside Job: Unmasking the 9/11 Conspiracies (http://images.bestwebbuys.com/muze/books/37/1579830137.jpg), and other fine works of literature.

Is this the same Tom Foti (http://tomfoti.com/)?

[Abbyas]

Is this the same Tom Foti?Yep. He's also a real estate agent.

Please read this post: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2168344#post2168344

There are TWO Tom Fotis

[jhunter1163]

www.takingaim.info

Ralph Schoenman's site.

Typical Leftie, been around forever, was Bertrand Russell's Svengali for a while (until Russell repudiated him).

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/Russell/Private_memorandum_of_Russell.html

Repudiation is here. Quite a read, comes right out and says Schoenman is not to be trusted.

[defaultdotxbe]

ear peice is too obvious IMO, suit+tie+glasses sounds good

[chipmunk stew]

I don't recognize any others, but some have internet presence:
Jim Marrs (http://www.jerrypippin.com/Jim%20Marrs%202.jpg), author of Psi Spies (http://www.alienzoo.com/image.php?productid=18182), Alien Agenda: Investigating the Extraterrestrial Presence Among Us (http://i.biblio.com/m/65/0061096865.jpg), Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0881846481.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg), Inside Job: Unmasking the 9/11 Conspiracies (http://images.bestwebbuys.com/muze/books/37/1579830137.jpg), and other fine works of literature.

Is this the same Tom Foti (http://tomfoti.com/)?
I think this is Chris Emery (http://www.philipdru.com/pics/emery.jpg). He was interviewed by Phillip Dru (http://philipdru.com/) about the OKC bombing.

[chipmunk stew]

I think this is Chris Emery (http://www.philipdru.com/pics/emery.jpg). He was interviewed by Phillip Dru (http://philipdru.com/) about the OKC bombing.
Howie Hawkins (http://www.hawkinsforsenate.org/) is a Green candidate for Senate.

[defaultdotxbe]

I don't recognize any others, but some have internet presence:
Jim Marrs (http://www.jerrypippin.com/Jim%20Marrs%202.jpg), author of Psi Spies (http://www.alienzoo.com/image.php?productid=18182), Alien Agenda: Investigating the Extraterrestrial Presence Among Us (http://i.biblio.com/m/65/0061096865.jpg), Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0881846481.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg), Inside Job: Unmasking the 9/11 Conspiracies (http://images.bestwebbuys.com/muze/books/37/1579830137.jpg), and other fine works of literature.

Is this the same Tom Foti (http://tomfoti.com/)?

whoa, ive actually read alien agenda a long time ago, didnt realize marrs wrote that, lol

[LashL]

From the Wayback Machine of this thread (post 2715 by Dr Adequate), two video clips, one of the South Tower collapsing and another of a REAL controlled demolition of a skyscraper. The button even pushed by a young, Boy Scout.

(I can't quote external URLs yet)

My reaction to the for-real CD is: WOW! Cool video. I've only seen a couple of these on TV news (Three Rivers Stadium is the one that springs to mind...boy that was sad), but this let me see AND hear what the pop-pops really sound like.

Just like you never get to hear the sonic boom when the space shuttle lands (because the commentators never shut their yaps), I'd never heard all the noise from a CD before. And the video showed the flashes like, well, they looked almost like, fireflies.



Jennie, it sounds like you're talking about the demolition of the Landmark Tower building. I remember seeing a video of it in which a young boy presses the button for detonation in one version of that demo. But there is another view of it taken from a helicopter which is even better because of its vantage point - it shows the entire building and has some visuals that were not apparent in the boy scout version that I saw - as well as the sound, of course. Here is a link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6979955002470780153

[StoneWT]

chipmunk,

It's him. He played a large part in the OKC Bombing investigation.

[Pardalis]

Does anybody know who is funding all these conferences?

[LashL]

Has anyone done a critique of this Barrie Zwicker film - 'The Great Conspiracy'?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623

I started watching the video, thinking that I'd do a critique as I'm actually looking for a research project to tackle, but man, that guy is painful to watch and listen to.

It's basically just him sitting there, spouting his opinions with next to no citations or evidence but loads of innuendo and accusation, with the occasional short video clip thrown in.

I was typing notes while watching it, then realized that perhaps I could find a transcript online and lo and behold:

http://www.greatconspiracy.ca/pdfs/TGC_transcript_GOIssue9.pdf#search=%22%22the%20gre at%20conspiracy%22%20transcript%22

There appears to be nothing of note in the entire thing; it appears to consist of all the same old crap although with perhaps more focus on the war pretext angle (Reichstag fire, Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, Kuwaiti incubators) and a bit more aim at the media complicity which allows GWB to get away with the whole conspiracy.

The usual suspects: Norad stand down; war games; GWB's behaviour at the Booker elementary school on the morning of 9/11 and later saying that he saw the first plane on television outside the classroom; PNAC and the new Pearl Harbor; Webster Tarpley; Naudet brothers film means prior knowledge; slowness in appointing commission; less spent on 9/11 commission than other investigations; lack of independence of the commission; jet fuel can't melt steel; SAMS at the Pentagon; WTC7 had only minor fires, fell in free fall into its own footprint, obviously a controlled demolition done for some nefarious purpose relating to the Enron documents that he supposes would have been housed at the SEC offices; Larry Silverstein admits that it was a controlled demolition via the "pull it" comment; 9/11 commission should be called the 9/11 coverup commission; media complicity; only the few and the brave can see the trooth and the rest of us just really want to be lied to because we do not want to have to face the big bad truth.

There really isn't much in it that hasn't been thoroughly done before. The only slight difference about this piece of drivel and most of the others is that he talks a bit more about media complicity (calls himself a media critic, so I guess that's why) and he draws some direct and not at all subtle comparisons between Hitler and Bush.

Like I said, I didn't watch it the whole thing because it really was too agonizing to watch him for more than the first 20 minutes (which took me a lot longer than that because I was typing a paraphrased transcript at first so kept pausing and typing, pausing and typing, etc).

It probably isn't even worth critiquing because it's unlikely that anyone watches it all the way through.

That said, it would be a simple matter of using the work that has already been done and rearranging the order to match the video if the people who have done the prior work don't mind. I.e. it's all in the Loose Change guides, with very few exceptions.

[WildCat]

One of the loosers has figured out that the UN is going to invade the US (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12062)... somehow the organization that stood by helplessly throughout every conflict in the past 50 years is suddenly going to take over the most powerful country on the planet. :eye-poppi

[defaultdotxbe]

i only read this far

Even our National Guard are being sent "over there". We are left, here at home, with NO PROTECTION.

the guard is being sent overseas because the regular army is being rotated back here, we have the same amount of protection weve had for at least the last 5 years

another thing is, dont US forces comprise most, if not all UN forces?

[T.A.M.]

OMG...

When does the UN "Invade" anything. The only time they do anything besides give opinion on a matter, is when a country needs "Help". They don't "invade". Just when you think they have said the dumbest thing they possibly could on a matter...

[sleahead]

One of the loosers has figured out that the UN is going to invade the US (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12062)... somehow the organization that stood by helplessly throughout every conflict in the past 50 years is suddenly going to take over the most powerful country on the planet. :eye-poppi

Oh man. Every time I think I know the extent of their stupidity, they just up and surprise me. You've got to love this, though:

Oh! & breed specific legislation will have gotten rid of another
weapon...our big dogs. (see the battle raging to stop BSL at yahoo!
group...BSL56-UAOA

The U.N. must get rid of your big dawgs before they invade!

[WildCat]

Oh man. Every time I think I know the extent of their stupidity, they just up and surprise me.
You ain't kidding, check out this little nugget (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12064&view=findpost&p=7025644):
London is the most spyed upon city in the world, there are over 4 million street cameras in London
Now I know there are a lot of security cams in London, but 4 million?!

[LashL]

Now I know there are a lot of security cams in London, but 4 million?!

Typical of loosers to take a semblance of reality and twist it into something that does not remotely resemble the truth.

I believe that there are roughly 4 million CCTV cameras in Britain (they have been using them since the mid 1960s, I think) but as any fool knows, there is more to Britain than just London.

[JamesB]

i only read this far



the guard is being sent overseas because the regular army is being rotated back here, we have the same amount of protection weve had for at least the last 5 years

another thing is, dont US forces comprise most, if not all UN forces?

LOL The UN couldn't even take over Bosnia, with a population of less than 4 million people. There are over 2 million servicemen in the armed services, only about 120,000 are in Iraq. I think we will be safe should Canada decide to pull a fast one...

[Jennie C.]

Jennie, it sounds like you're talking about the demolition of the Landmark Tower building. I remember seeing a video of it in which a young boy presses the button for detonation in one version of that demo. But there is another view of it taken from a helicopter which is even better because of its vantage point - it shows the entire building and has some visuals that were not apparent in the boy scout version that I saw - as well as the sound, of course. Here is a link:

You know, here at post 14, I'm really getting annoyed with this no URL posting rule. I just typed out a response to this, incidentally quoting the whole quote (is that redundant?), and had the entire reply wiped out because I didn't take out the URL. Urrrgh. I'll try again.

This looks like the same building, yes. And it's another really cool video. There must be something in us all (female-types included) that likes smashing sand castles, because it's fun to watch big thing being blown up (on purpose, that is). Of course, my granddaughters howl with glee when they knock down towers of blocks that I build, and so do I (when they do it, i mean).

BUT, I've been reading this thread for awhile, and recently at both ends (meaning i keep up with the new stuff while slogging thru the old) for some time. And there've been requests from the JREFers to (mostly) Geggy for Real Live Controlled Demolitions that Look Like the WTC's going down. And guess what. To my inexperienced eyes, this building doesn't look Anything Like the WTC's. But what do I know, not only am I just a lowly admin, while Geggy is a .... err.... did he ever say what he does?

Another point is, how many building this tall have ever fallen down from Any Cause, let alone being hit by Really Big Airplanes? My guess is ... 2.

[T.A.M.]

Leading Truther Jim Hoffman Responds to NIST FAQ (http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/nist/WTC_FAQ_reply.html)

Interesting to see what he thinks, as he is at least marginally more intelligent and honest than the LC Forumers...

[Mancman]

I started watching the video, thinking that I'd do a critique as I'm actually looking for a research project to tackle, but man, that guy is painful to watch and listen to.

It's basically just him sitting there, spouting his opinions with next to no citations or evidence but loads of innuendo and accusation, with the occasional short video clip thrown in.

I was typing notes while watching it, then realized that perhaps I could find a transcript online and lo and behold:

http://www.greatconspiracy.ca/pdfs/TGC_transcript_GOIssue9.pdf#search=%22%22the%20gre at%20conspiracy%22%20transcript%22

There appears to be nothing of note in the entire thing; it appears to consist of all the same old crap although with perhaps more focus on the war pretext angle (Reichstag fire, Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, Kuwaiti incubators) and a bit more aim at the media complicity which allows GWB to get away with the whole conspiracy.

The usual suspects: Norad stand down; war games; GWB's behaviour at the Booker elementary school on the morning of 9/11 and later saying that he saw the first plane on television outside the classroom; PNAC and the new Pearl Harbor; Webster Tarpley; Naudet brothers film means prior knowledge; slowness in appointing commission; less spent on 9/11 commission than other investigations; lack of independence of the commission; jet fuel can't melt steel; SAMS at the Pentagon; WTC7 had only minor fires, fell in free fall into its own footprint, obviously a controlled demolition done for some nefarious purpose relating to the Enron documents that he supposes would have been housed at the SEC offices; Larry Silverstein admits that it was a controlled demolition via the "pull it" comment; 9/11 commission should be called the 9/11 coverup commission; media complicity; only the few and the brave can see the trooth and the rest of us just really want to be lied to because we do not want to have to face the big bad truth.

There really isn't much in it that hasn't been thoroughly done before. The only slight difference about this piece of drivel and most of the others is that he talks a bit more about media complicity (calls himself a media critic, so I guess that's why) and he draws some direct and not at all subtle comparisons between Hitler and Bush.

Like I said, I didn't watch it the whole thing because it really was too agonizing to watch him for more than the first 20 minutes (which took me a lot longer than that because I was typing a paraphrased transcript at first so kept pausing and typing, pausing and typing, etc).

It probably isn't even worth critiquing because it's unlikely that anyone watches it all the way through.

That said, it would be a simple matter of using the work that has already been done and rearranging the order to match the video if the people who have done the prior work don't mind. I.e. it's all in the Loose Change guides, with very few exceptions.

Yeah you're right, it has all been debunked seperately so a new critique would be a bit of a waste. Like yourself I couldn't bring myself to watch the entire thing, it rivals a typical Alex Jones movie for quantity of nauseous flammery.

[WildCat]

Leading Truther Jim Hoffman Responds to NIST FAQ (http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/nist/WTC_FAQ_reply.html)

Interesting to see what he thinks, as he is at least marginally more intelligent and honest than the LC Forumers...
Not really, he has apparently adopted geggy's "controlled demolition made not to look like a controlled demolition" theory.

[Gravy]

Yep. He's also a real estate agent.
He's ma-ma-ma-myyyy Remora (http://image06.webshots.com/6/1/32/43/77813243bvlYlm_ph.jpg)!

[WildCat]

He's ma-ma-ma-myyyy Remora (http://image06.webshots.com/6/1/32/43/77813243bvlYlm_ph.jpg)!
Linky no worky...

[StoneWT]

Jim Hoffman has debunked the Pentagon missile theory and has some good critiques of various 9/11 theories (http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/). His only shortcoming is CD.

[Gravy]

Linky no worky...Huh. Works for me. It's just a picture of a remora fish attached to a shark.

[WildCat]

Huh. Works for me. It's just a picture of a remora fish attached to a shark.
Ah. It says I am not authorized to view the page. Apparently only high ranking gov't shills like you are allowed to view it.

[Brainster]

Jim Hoffman has debunked the Pentagon missile theory and has some good critiques of various 9/11 theories (http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/). His only shortcoming is CD.

Well, he also buys into the Flight 93 was shot down (http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/911revealed/index.html#flight93) theory.

[Kent1]

Leading Truther Jim Hoffman Responds to NIST FAQ (http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/nist/WTC_FAQ_reply.html)

Interesting to see what he thinks, as he is at least marginally more intelligent and honest than the LC Forumers...

You want a big laugh from his site, he claims all of the bowing column photos were caused by refracted light.

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/nist/WTC_FAQ_reply.html
Most of it is just laughable.

(

[T.A.M.]

I have been at this for a good 4-5 months now. Not a long time compared to some of you, I admit.

What bothers me about most of the "Truthers" who give explanation, and propose alternative theories to the Official story, is this...

They talk/profess/claim to be experts on everything. Now, I myself am no slacker. I am well educated, and in my field I can carry my own, and I am an expert in certain areas. That said, I never claim to be an expert in engineering, or controlled demolition, or material strengths and compositions, or photo analysis. I notice, that even those here, who are much better versed than I in all matters 9/11 don't claim to be experts, but rather refer to expert papers, or quote expert sources with their claims.

Those, like Hoffman, however, seem to believe they are experts in every field. They must, for when making claims or theories, they do not quote "Experts" or rarely do. More often tehy spue their opinion as fact, or even worse they speak about things way out of their realm of expertese.

This is why, when someone refers me to an article by some of these people, I cringe, and very rarely actually go read it.

[Kent1]

I have been at this for a good 4-5 months now. Not a long time compared to some of you, I admit.

What bothers me about most of the "Truthers" who give explanation, and propose alternative theories to the Official story, is this...

They talk/profess/claim to be experts on everything. Now, I myself am no slacker. I am well educated, and in my field I can carry my own, and I am an expert in certain areas. That said, I never claim to be an expert in engineering, or controlled demolition, or material strengths and compositions, or photo analysis. I notice, that even those here, who are much better versed than I in all matters 9/11 don't claim to be experts, but rather refer to expert papers, or quote expert sources with their claims.

Those, like Hoffman, however, seem to believe they are experts in every field. They must, for when making claims or theories, they do not quote "Experts" or rarely do. More often tehy spue their opinion as fact, or even worse they speak about things way out of their realm of expertese.

This is why, when someone refers me to an article by some of these people, I cringe, and very rarely actually go read it.

Its crap, but need to be looked at.

"Minutes before its collapse the South Tower showed no visible flames, only dark smoke"
But he even gets that wrong.
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem5/911.wtc.2.demolition.east.close.mpg
I guess Bazant doesn't exist in his world either.

[gumboot]

another thing is, dont US forces comprise most, if not all UN forces?


The UN don't have any "forces". They have Peacekeepers - who are made up of the armed forces of various member states - not including the US (who don't do UN stuff). But when the UN wants to fight a war they don't do it themselves - they grant permission for an international coalition to do it. And yes, the United States has provided the majority of forces for all of these international coalitions - with the exception of INTERFET (East Timor).

-Andrew

[CurtC]

Jennie, it sounds like you're talking about the demolition of the Landmark Tower building. I remember seeing a video of it in which a young boy presses the button for detonation in one version of that demo. But there is another view of it taken from a helicopter which is even better because of its vantage point...
That's not taken from a helicopter, it's taken from a nearby (taller) building.

[tsig]

The most depressing thing about the CTers is how they all think they're expert photographic interpreters just because they've looked at a few videos.

I worked damn hard to earn the meagre interpretation skills I have...

To suggest such vastly superior skills can appear as if by magic is insulting...:mad:

-Andrew


all they have is video seeing is not knowing.

[negativ]

One of the loosers has figured out that the UN is going to invade the US (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12062)... somehow the organization that stood by helplessly throughout every conflict in the past 50 years is suddenly going to take over the most powerful country on the planet. :eye-poppi

I really hate to reinforce stereotypes, but I'm afraid we in Texas are better equipped and more thoroughly trained than "the UN". We are *genuinely* the Friendship State, however, so they are cordially welcomed to try.

[StoneWT]

Well, he also buys into the Flight 93 was shot down (http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/911revealed/index.html#flight93) theory.

Thanks. I forgot about that part. He is mosly known for his CD work. I met a fellow that works with Hoffman.

Jim is a better CT in that he is at least willing to cast a critical eye at some 9/11 theories. His articles on Fetzer and ST9/11 are excellent. I always like using material written by other CTs to debunk bad theories.

[Brainster]

As found in the IHT (http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/09/01/news/conspiracy.php). The writer makes it clear in this section that he doesn't have much agreement with the nutbars:

The demolition theory has managed to endure what would seem to be enormous obstacles to its practicality. Controlled demolition is done from the bottom of buildings, not the top, to take advantage of gravity, and there is little dispute that the collapse of the two towers began high in the towers, in the areas where the airplanes struck.

Moreover, a demolition project would have required the walls of the towers to be opened on dozens of floors, followed by the insertion of thousands of pounds of explosives, fuses and ignition mechanisms, all sneaked past the security stations, inside hundreds of feet of walls on all four faces of both buildings. Then the walls presumably would have been closed up.

All this would have had to take place without attracting the notice of any of the thousands of tenants and workers in either building; no witness has ever reported such activity. Then on the morning of Sept. 11, the demolition explosives would have had to withstand the impacts of the airplanes, since the collapse did not begin for 57 minutes in one tower, and 102 minutes in the other.

Superb article with excellent argumentation.

[Kent1]

As found in the IHT (http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/09/01/news/conspiracy.php). The writer makes it clear in this section that he doesn't have much agreement with the nutbars:



Superb article with excellent argumentation.
Interesting article. It seems Jones is now dropping "sulfur" and "1,3-diphenylpropane" now he's moved to "fluorine and zinc in metal debris" as his most important elements

[Pardalis]

As found in the IHT (http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/09/01/news/conspiracy.php).
Superb article with excellent argumentation.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh. What a nice read, after reading Christophera's insanity I really needed that. How soothing, sanity... Thanks Brainster!

[Gravy]

One of the loosers has figured out that the UN is going to invade the US (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12062)... somehow the organization that stood by helplessly throughout every conflict in the past 50 years is suddenly going to take over the most powerful country on the planet. :eye-poppi
Somebody wake up Michael Badnarik! (http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2004_08/bradford-dark_horse.html)
LP delegates had chosen as their standardbearer a man who had willfully refused to file his federal tax return for years, refused to get a driver's license but continued to drive, and proposed to blow up the U.N. building.

[Shrinker]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/361744f9454a180aa.gif

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.

[brodski]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/361744f9454a180aa.gif

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.

You doknow trhat google is run by TEH GLOBALISTS, don't you? ;)

[WildCat]

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.
Hahahahhaha, that's the down side of banning all the skeptics. When skeptics were allowed traffic was high on their little forum, now that there is no debate and what little there is has moved to a hidden forum available to approved members only they drop waaaaay down in the Google rankings.

The loosers are losing.

[T.A.M.]

SO I am listening Dave Griffin on some show from 08/30/06. So now, he is saying that the NORAD tapes are just another lie, a lie to show that it was the FAA that was incompetent, to take away the blame previously put on the military for "standing down".

The only thing Griffin has convinced me of, is that no matter what evidence the nutters are provided with, they will simply call it fake or a cover up. So, from that point, why do they bother.

If you use their logic...then all evidence the govt gives will be false, so why dig, why ask the questions. Do they think some saviour is going to come along and give them the "magic" evidence they are looking for.

It is rediculous...so much so that I want to go over to griffin, grab him by his jacket lapels and shake the GD SHAITE out of him, to se if I can shake some sense into the man.

[negativ]

Do they think some saviour is going to come along and give them the "magic" evidence they are looking for.

Just like any other cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenarianism).

[WildCat]

If you use their logic...then all evidence the govt gives will be false, so why dig, why ask the questions.
Their jury is already out, the only questions left in their minds is when do the hangings start.

[WildCat]

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.
Oh man, are you devolver over there? I love the clueless response to this post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12100&view=findpost&p=7032367)!

See it before it's gone folks!

[T.A.M.]

lol..after devolve's post, I would say they will have to develop some form of "Insta-ban" technology, cause I got a feeling as soon as a single admin sees that, devolve will be "desolved"...lol

:)

[Shrinker]

No I'm not devolve, but I have to say, I love what he/she's done with that!

10 points for smiley usage.

[kevin]

Interesting article. It seems Jones is now dropping "sulfur" and "1,3-diphenylpropane" now he's moved to "fluorine and zinc in metal debris" as his most important elements

these aren't used in thermite. what are they proof of?

[CptColumbo]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/361744f9454a180aa.gif

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.

Does that mean we get to say the LC forum is "owned," or am I misunderstanding the rules?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Does that mean we get to say the LC forum is "owned," or am I misunderstanding the rules?

That would be "pwned"

[Longfellow]

s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12105

How long do you think that thread will last?

[Gravy]

these aren't used in thermite. what are they proof of?
They can be. Jones touches on this in his rambling wreck of a 190-page presentation "Answers to Objections and Questions, (http://9eleven.info/LAJun24_Jones.pdf)" AKA "Bukkaked with Ugly Powerpoint Graphics." But probably half the chemicals found in the debris piles could be used in thermite or produced as byproducts, so this proves nothing.

[WildCat]

s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12105

How long do you think that thread will last?
We'll see, probably inspire a bunch of those arms-crossed-heasd-shaking smilies at the very least. I'll post the link since you can't yet:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12105

[Longfellow]

I'll post the link since you can't yet:

Much obliged.

[T.A.M.]

Where is this guy "The Decider" getting this "Boom Boom Boom...all the way up, then three explosions". Certainly he isnt talking about either of the two towers is he. I do not recall ANY WITNESS describing explosions going off one after the other all the way up, then 3 large explosions just prior to collapse. Does anyone here have any idea what he is talking about (Re: link by wildcat above me).

[JamesB]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/361744f9454a180aa.gif

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.

Yeah, earlier someone was complaining about that, so they were discussing raising money to buy google ads to promote the forum. I posted an official apology for helping to push them down the listings on SLC. :D

[defaultdotxbe]

Yeah, earlier someone was complaining about that, so they were discussing raising money to buy google ads to promote the forum. I posted an official apology for helping to push them down the listings on SLC. :D

i once considered buying some google ads for promote the SLC forums, i though it would have been funny to get SLC advertised on the LC forums

[LashL]

You know, here at post 14, I'm really getting annoyed with this no URL posting rule. I just typed out a response to this, incidentally quoting the whole quote (is that redundant?), and had the entire reply wiped out because I didn't take out the URL. Urrrgh.

Jennie: Yes, that would be frustrating to have your post wiped out for including the url but, on the up side, you are now at the point where it won't ever happen again :)

There must be something in us all (female-types included) that likes smashing sand castles, because it's fun to watch big thing being blown up (on purpose, that is). Of course, my granddaughters howl with glee when they knock down towers of blocks that I build, and so do I (when they do it, i mean).

Yes, there is something fascinating about it, isn't there? And it seems to be pretty much universal. There's a site (implosion world, I think) that has a number of videos of its demolitions.

Found it: http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030317140323

EDIT: I had the wrong site and link but that one should be correct now
Enjoy!


And there've been requests from the JREFers to (mostly) Geggy for Real Live Controlled Demolitions that Look Like the WTC's going down. And guess what. To my inexperienced eyes, this building doesn't look Anything Like the WTC's. But what do I know, not only am I just a lowly admin, while Geggy is a .... err.... did he ever say what he does?

I agree with you. I am not a demolitions expert either, (nor, I suspect, is Geggy) but so far as I know, no controlled demolition experts have come out and said that they believe the WTC towers, nor building 7 for that matter, were taken out by CDs.

[Brainster]

The "Youth Forum" over at Looser Central is another gold mine. First, note the caution on the front page of the forum:

Youth for 9/11 Truth
21 and Under share their thought on 9/11. 21 and Under only please. This is their forum. Not for Adults.

As you can probably guess, this warning has no effect on the Deniers. Check out what happens when a questioning youth (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11637) shows up. It's not long before the "grown-ups" horn in on the discussion:

Daniels: This is a troll post if ever I've seen one, complete with psuedo misspellings.

Yeah, cause trolls always misspell pseudo. ;)

Crazy Blade does his Chuck Sheen imitation: I strongly advise you to take a look at Universal Seed. If you still have questions after looking at the material there, come back and ask questions.

Daniels: If he's a fence sitter he shouldn't be on a 9/11 Truth forum.

If he's a troll he shouldn't be on a 9/11 Truth forum.

Why would ANYONE come to a forum that they totally don't believe in?

Yep, even though most of the mods over there will tell you they don't totally believe in Loose Change. Anyway, after that all the "adults" show up--Roxdog, Sanders, etc.

[LashL]

That's not taken from a helicopter, it's taken from a nearby (taller) building.

Thanks CurtC. I must have confused it with another version that I saw previously that was filmed from a news helicopter.

[LashL]

As found in the IHT (http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/09/01/news/conspiracy.php). The writer makes it clear in this section that he doesn't have much agreement with the nutbars:



Superb article with excellent argumentation.

Jim Dwyer is a co-author of the book "102 Minutes" and he personally interviewed hundreds of survivors and rescuers, so he certainly knows a lot more about what happened than any given thousand CTers combined. I always enjoy his articles on the subject.

Nice find, Brainster.

[Class]

The "Youth Forum" over at Looser Central is another gold mine.

That thread is a riot. The laughs start coming when MichaelMR says Do you remember the JFK incident when they all shouted Lee Harvey Oswald (Zarqawi is our Oswald in this scenario.) did it? Go watch Oliver Stones film that's narrated by James Earl Jones, it's the truth and it has been accepted regardless of how people shot down the conspiracy theorists. Why? Because it's the truth. The government pulled that off. So, you can come here and tell me your base belief is what the government tell you and I'll immediately question it. Why? Because we've been lied to SO much in the past that it's blatant stupidity to wholeheartedly accept anything these people say without questioning it.
Bolding mine.

Um, if a conspiracy theory is "shot down", doesn't that mean it has been proven to be false? But boy, "It's the truth" is a good reason to explain why something is the truth.

Thread gets funnier as it goes along, thanks for making me laugh!

[Submersible]

False. No-one is at war with Islam. No-one claims to be at war with Islam, except of course "truth" seekers and terrorists.

You certainly make me feel intelligent enough to post here more often.
http://peacetakescourage.cf.huffingtonpost.com/animations/thetimeisnow.html

I can appreciate that many of you are atheist, but I would love to know how many of you still associate the name of God with Allah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxsL_1i9CZQ



How bloody stupid can one person be? Have you bothered to check interviews with personnel on the scene before and after WTC 7 collapsed? Have you bothered to check other video and photographs besides that particular clip? What are your qualifications for your video analysis (INSERT: NONE)?


I was a firefighter for 12 years, an iron worker for almost 2 years and I've been running cranes for the last 6 years... mostly hanging iron.
So tell me something, with that kind of experience does anybody in this forum or the other "professionals" who gave their accounts of the WTC events have equal or better qualifications than me?

It turns my stomach that most of you can see three buildings demolished and your too smart to see that because the USG or NIST's WRITTEN claims are different, and you also claim to KNOW what happened unlike the "truth seekers".
Just incase you didn't understand this, WE are All ONE, and it disgust me that most of you still don't see that either.

I would assume that more of you would have the ability to see through the "programming" we have been exposed to in this country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTNc1karwHM&mode=related&search=

Since most of your minds don't register the fact the WTC towers were taken down by controlled demolition, it probably hasn't dawned on you that the flag of israel flies next to the american flag at the white house either.
You'll get it one day. ;)

[Pardalis]

Hey bubba, this is not about religion, it's about facts. No facts prove that the WTC towers were brought down by demolition charges, NONE.

[sleahead]

Submersible, could your mind register just this one fact, please:

The report brought to light one little-known detail about the morning: a private demolition monitoring firm, Protec Documentation Services, had seismographs at several construction sites in Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Those machines documented the tremors of the falling towers, but captured no ground vibrations before the collapses from demolition charges or bombs, according to a separate report by Brent Blanchard, the director of field operations for Protec. It is available online at www.implosionworld.com

[Eos of the Eons]

Did you see on the news that we are all being warned once again to convert to Islam? http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/hagmann090106.htm
The message, reportedly titled "An Invitation to Islam"...
Analysts expect the video message to be yet another veiled warning to convert to Islam or "suffer the consequences,"
Is this FBI code to tell fellow Americans that the Empire State Building is coming down this Sept. 11?/sarcasm

How do the Loosers ignore things like this too:
http://www.nysun.com/article/38893

The Britains are attacking themselves???


One deep-seated problem arises from the doctrine that all humanity is born Muslim. This implies not only proselytizing among non-Muslims, but laying claim to those who have yet to convert to Islam.

Everywhere you see "Islamic bookshops" which sell not only the Koran, usually described as "the last testament," but also poisonous anti-Semitic and anti-Christian propaganda. That is unacceptable.
In a free society, all religions enjoy the right not only to practice but also to pass on their faith to the next generation and to make new converts. I wonder, however, if these rights are being abused in Britain today. There have been a number of horrible "honor killings" of Muslim women by their fathers or brothers, as punishment for marrying or even associating with non-Muslims. These barbaric murders are rarely condemned in public by Islamic clerics.


How do the Loosers reason through all these problems in other countries? The FBI blew up british subways??

[Pardalis]

There are political and religious subforums for such a debate. This thread has to do with Loose Change and the conspiracy theories, not religion.

[Submersible]

http://www.zombietime.com/flight_93_memorial_project/

Oh, it's not about religion ?

That's right, most of you have faith in spontaneous combustion.

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc_collapse1.jpg
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc_collapse1.jpg

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

Are ya'll claiming that the firefighters and the other first responders on the scene when the towers fell were lying in their LC interviews ?
Because they certainly did describe what the videos show, a series of explosion, ,,explosions, ,,explosions.

[Pardalis]

Because they certainly did describe what the videos show, a series of explosion, ,,explosions, ,,explosions.

You can repeat that mantra forever, it doesn't make it true.

[Eos of the Eons]

Hmm, what does a building sound like when it falls down? Are they actual explosions though, or the sound of things booming on down? When one floor smacks against another and on down like a chain reaction of dominoes until you get down to the other floors crumpling under the weight of it all, you're going to hear something. That DOES NOT MEAN there are explosives planted in the building.

[Eos of the Eons]

There are political and religious subforums for such a debate. This thread has to do with Loose Change and the conspiracy theories, not religion.


This is all related. Al Queada (bin laden) coordinated the attacks on the trade centre, not the US. My post outlines why the Loosers are so damn wrong in their Looser conspiracy theories.

Bin Laden is "justified" in any coordinated attacks because he DID warn us to convert to Islam. He won't be punished in his afterlife for killing people in the WTC attacks.

[Submersible]

Did you see on the news that we are all being warned once again to convert to Islam? http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/hagmann090106.htm


It would appear as if they definitely have some "stroke" in this country.
http://www.zombietime.com/flight_93_memorial_project/
Maybe it is because one "sector" of the Muslim world has control of this nations greatest need and addiction, and the other Muslim groups are paying the consequences of OUR affection for war and gasoline.

[quote]There are political and religious subforums for such a debate. This thread has to do with Loose Change and the conspiracy theories, not religion.

It's just an unfortunate consequence that so many religious people are suffering for our ignorance. I think it's because we have injested entirely too much formaldehyde, methanol, and freak amino acid from our primary sources of food.
Don't take that as an insult, maybe you can use it as an excuse one day. :rolleyes:

[Pardalis]

This is all related. Al Queada (bin laden) coordinated the attacks on the trade centre, not the US. My post outlines why the Loosers are so damn wrong in their Looser conspiracy theories.

With all due respect, I think your playing into Submersible game. He wants this to be a debate about the West being at war with Islam. This thread is about the facts of 9/11 and the many errors and fallacies of Loose Change and the CT's, and the arrogance of the CT crowd.

[Pardalis]

It's just an unfortunate consequence that so many religious people are suffering for our ignorance. I think it's because we have injested entirely too much formaldehyde, methanol, and freak amino acid from our primary sources of food.

I have no idea what this means.

[sleahead]

Jones has been adding some funny new additions to his paper.
The new firefighter photos I guess are suposed to be looking at the hot thermite. LOL!!

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Blast from the past....here is an old version of Jones paper where he still had the contrast adjusted Rob Miller photo before we caught him. LOL!!
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/WTC-Jones19mar06.htm

Kent, A very similar scene to the second of the new Jones photographs appears in the Naudet brothers film, which was shown again here in the U.K. tonight. Those firefighters are not looking into a "yellow-white hot core" as Jones describes. They are, in fact, shining powerful lights into a void in the hope of discovering survivors or recovering bodies. I think Jones might be playing games with this image, too. I'd like to know where he got it from. He attributes it as coming from a BBC website, but it is not there.

[Eos of the Eons]

Did you see on the news that we are all being warned once again to convert to Islam? http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/hagmann090106.htm


It would appear as if they definitely have some "stroke" in this country.
Maybe it is because one "sector" of the Muslim world has control of this nations greatest need and addiction, and the other Muslim groups are paying the consequences of OUR affection for war and gasoline.



It's just an unfortunate consequence that so many religious people are suffering for our ignorance. I think it's because we have injested entirely too much formaldehyde, methanol, and freak amino acid from our primary sources of food.
Don't take that as an insult, maybe you can use it as an excuse one day. :rolleyes:


You're truly sick. Conspiracy theory and ignorance heaped on yet more conspiracy theories and ignorance. There are other sources of oil and gas. You would be shocked at what folks like the Iranian leader, bin laden, and a now caged saddam would do with all that oil money if left to their vices and not culled by international laws. Heck, it's shocking enough what Saddam did with it while he was in power (rewarding families of suicide bombers being a small part of it).

It's not just the Americans looking out for the threats that come out of the mouths of those that not only keep sending us videos warning us of what they will do to us "non-believers", but the entire world. Scapegoating the Americans won't help your argument one bit.

We have no affection for war, and how can you ignore those that actually are inviting war? The Iranian leader spews invitations every day. There are plenty of non-westerners that spew contantly on about who needs to be wiped off the planet for polluting the place by being non-islams. Got your fingers in your ears and your eyes clammed shut too I see.

Let's requote this:

Everywhere you see "Islamic bookshops" which sell not only the Koran, usually described as "the last testament," but also poisonous anti-Semitic and anti-Christian propaganda.

Oh, such innocents that are doing a great job of scapegoating the "Westerners". Keep ignoring it. You're doing a great job of misplacing blame.

Those who are really calling for war are laughing at your willingness to swallow their propaganda.

[Eos of the Eons]

With all due respect, I think your playing into Submersible game. He wants this to be a debate about the West being at war with Islam. This thread is about the facts of 9/11 and the many errors and fallacies of Loose Change and the CT's, and the arrogance of the CT crowd.

CT crowd arrogance stems from this hatred Submersible and his fellow CTers have for their fellow americans, and he indicates why, and why they figure fellow americans would blow up the WTC to start a war that was actually started long before.


This allows them to make up wild fantasies and actually believe Loose Change codswallop.

There is no way they will care if you can prove Loose Change is all bunk, because they will still hate their fellow Americans and feel we are all just a bunch of oil hungry warmongers that need a raw food diet.

Maybe you can help a few fence sitters know the Looser 9/11 "evidence" is baseless. It won't matter to submersible though. He has digested and integrated propaganda that will keep him ignorant.

[gmanontario]

LOL The UN couldn't even take over Bosnia, with a population of less than 4 million people. There are over 2 million servicemen in the armed services, only about 120,000 are in Iraq. I think we will be safe should Canada decide to pull a fast one...

Our invasion force will be comprised of the most violent hockey goons you'll ever see. You'll be screaming in panic whilst running to Mexico tout de suite ...

:D

[Pardalis]

Maybe you can help a few fence sitters know the Looser 9/11 "evidence" is baseless. It won't matter to submersible though. He has digested and integrated propaganda that will keep him ignorant.

I think you got a good point there. Some of the really hardcore CTists, as Submersible seems to be, are just impossible to reason with.

[delphi_ote]

http://www.zombietime.com/flight_93_memorial_project/

Oh, it's not about religion ?

That's right, most of you have faith in spontaneous combustion.

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc_collapse1.jpg
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc_collapse1.jpg

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

Are ya'll claiming that the firefighters and the other first responders on the scene when the towers fell were lying in their LC interviews ?
Because they certainly did describe what the videos show, a series of explosion, ,,explosions, ,,explosions.
Why is it you guys will just throw stills of the World Trade Center collapsing pretty much anywhere at the drop of a hat? I can't look at the those images without thinking, "Here I am again witnessing thousands of people dying again." That's a really humbling thought for me. It's a reminder that I take everything around me for granted; that I could lose my friends or my own life in a heartbeat. It's not something I take lightly, like revisiting a grave. However you think the towers fell, that image portays a staggering loss of human life.

Why does it seem like you guys use it as graffiti?

[Pardalis]

Why is it you guys will just throw stills of the World Trade Center collapsing pretty much anywhere at the drop of a hat? I can't look at the those images without thinking, "Here I am again witnessing thousands of people dying again." That's a really humbling thought for me. It's a reminder that I take everything around me for granted; that I could lose my friends or my own life in a heartbeat. It's not something I take lightly, like revisiting a grave. However you think the towers fell, that image portays a staggering loss of human life.

I totally agree.

Why does it seem like you guys use it as graffiti?

I think they think the atrocity of these images will somehow convince us that the US government is evil. They have no other means to convince us, they've tried facts and evidence, and it didn't work.

[StoneWT]

Submersible,

*GROAN* :rolleyes:


It turns my stomach that most of you can see three buildings demolished and your too smart to see that because the USG or NIST's WRITTEN claims are different, and you also claim to KNOW what happened unlike the "truth seekers".
Just incase you didn't understand this, WE are All ONE, and it disgust me that most of you still don't see that either.


You're using circular reasoning. You first need to demonstrate that the buildings were brought down with CD. You take it as a given and use your assumption as proof.

No one here other than CTs claims to KNOW what happened as though knowing was a psychic phenomena. The skeptics here base it on an analysis of the witnesses, physical evidence, and video/photographic record. If we're not up to speed in a given area, we consult people and organizations that are qualified to analyze the information. This stands in sharp contrast to the ham-fisted, victim-mocking analysis performed by morons like Jim Fetzer and Morgan Reynolds.

We are not all ONE. The skeptics on this forum are not ONE in spirit or being with the CTs that mock the victims, the victims' families, and consign engineers to HELL because they refuse to endorse the ludicrous CD theories espoused by Fetzer.

Stick a pipe in it kid. Stop abusing the memory of the dead for your own sick ego trip.

[delphi_ote]

I think they think the atrocity of these images will somehow convince us that the US government is evil. They have no other means to convince us, they've tried facts and evidence, and it didn't work.
I really want one of them to answer. I want to hear someone try to justify so cavalierly wallpapering our discussion with these images. Submersible, if you really care as deeply as you say about what happened to the people that died in those buildings, why do you constantly dehumanize the last remaining images of their lives?

[Alareth]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/361744f9454a180aa.gif

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.

Unfortunately, as the old addage goes: "There is no such thing as bad publicity"

There will be people who seek it out just to see what all of us "shills" are trying to cover up...

[defaultdotxbe]

Unfortunately, as the old addage goes: "There is no such thing as bad publicity"

There will be people who seek it out just to see what all of us "shills" are trying to cover up...

the google rank is proof the govt is trying to keep them down, they must be on to somethign big :)

[T.A.M.]

Submersible:

If I recall, when you came over here you were reasonable, so I am hoping you will resume that form in terms of your discussions here.

1. Is it about religion. There is not a clear cut answer to that. My take on it, is that religion is involved in a couple of ways in the whole 9/11 debate. For starters, there is no doubt, that Islamic Extremism is involved, if you believe the official story, which most here do. Secondly, there is an anti-semetic component that runs rampent through the "Truth" movement. Your comment on the flags is not helping disolve that perspective.

I think most people who are speaking here, are trying to tell you that it is not a simple "Christianity vs Islam" or "Judaism vs Islam" war or battle or contraversy. Most here would agree that most Muslims are peaceful, ordinary people, that simply have a different faith.

The "war on terror" is not a war on Islam, but rather a war on those who would harm innocent people for whatever cause. It just so happens that the focus of the war, at this time in history, seems to be on individuals that use an extreme take on their religion as the reason for their crimes.

2. You were a fireworker for 12 years. What do you make of all the testimony around WTC7. Multiple firemen testifying that WTC7 was severely damaged and looked like it was going to collapse?

Very few people here, if any, would deny that people exiting/entering/around the WTCs that morning heard explosions. The point we seem to disagree on is what the word "explosion" refers to, and what were the actual "explosions". For instance, has anyone asked those firemen..."The explosions you heard, could they have been due to exploding containers of heated chemicals? Could the something falling down an elevator shaft for instance, sound like an explosion when it hits the ground. Could a transformer exploding make a similar noise? Not all "explosions" come from "explosives".

TAM

[LashL]

Kent, A very similar scene to the second of the new Jones photographs appears in the Naudet brothers film, which was shown again here in the U.K. tonight. Those firefighters are not looking into a "yellow-white hot core" as Jones describes. They are, in fact, shining powerful lights into a void in the hope of discovering survivors or recovering bodies. I think Jones might be playing games with this image, too. I'd like to know where he got it from. He attributes it as coming from a BBC website, but it is not there.

You're right, sleahead, that the second image does not appear at the bbc link quoted by Jones. The first one does, but of course it is not captioned as anything similar to what Jones pretends it is.

The caption "peering into the yellow-white hot “core” under the WTC rubble" is utterly laughable. If it really were a yellow-white hot spot, the firefighters would not be sticking their faces into it.

But as usual with tinhatters, the facts do not matter. Subterfuge and obfuscation are paramount.

[MarkyX]

I just got an idea for a little mind **** at Ground Zero.

Why not accuse Alex Jones and Dylan Avery for blowing up the WTC?

Alex Jones "knew" two months ahead, so he must've been part of the cover up. Dylan Avery is...Dylan Avery.

It would be like one messed up labrat experiment. Just hold signs saying "Alex Jones knew about it. He works for the CIA"

It makes as much sense as the crap they spew.

[T.A.M.]

Funny, now that you mention it, using their logic, wouldnt he be the ultimate Shill...

[WildCat]

Alex Jones "knew" two months ahead, so he must've been part of the cover up.
:D

[T.A.M.]

Just reviewing the Implosionworld article again...now follow me down the CT rabbit hole...come on, just for a moment..

One of the companies responsible for the clean-up at GZ was the D.H. Griffin Wrecking co.

Now anyone remember a famous Truther with a similar name. I wonder if David R. Griffin is related...he must be, I mean Ben and Michael Chertoff...you follow me....

So Griffin, must be a shill....busted...

lol...

now back up out of the hole we go...

[LashL]

Just reviewing the Implosionworld article again...now follow me down the CT rabbit hole...come on, just for a moment..

One of the companies responsible for the clean-up at GZ was the D.H. Griffin Wrecking co.

Now anyone remember a famous Truther with a similar name. I wonder if David R. Griffin is related...he must be, I mean Ben and Michael Chertoff...you follow me....

So Griffin, must be a shill....busted...

lol...

now back up out of the hole we go...

(dons tin foil hat) You may be on to something there. I mean, let's face it, an R and an H can easily be confused...

:D

/tin foil hat

[JamesB]

Just reviewing the Implosionworld article again...now follow me down the CT rabbit hole...come on, just for a moment..

One of the companies responsible for the clean-up at GZ was the D.H. Griffin Wrecking co.

Now anyone remember a famous Truther with a similar name. I wonder if David R. Griffin is related...he must be, I mean Ben and Michael Chertoff...you follow me....

So Griffin, must be a shill....busted...

lol...

now back up out of the hole we go...


Quick, someone start calling his relatives and see if they might be related!

[T.A.M.]

It is hard to tell with all the thing sthat get brought up here...but did anyone recognize the opening music in Loose Change, when they are helicoptering around the Statue of Liberty.

I am not a big Tarantino fan, but I was just this minute watching TV, and Kill Bill Volume #2 is on. It is at the point where Uma Thurman and Daryl Hannah are standing off against each other in the shack...and low and behold what music comes on...

that familiar..dum dum dumdum....dum dum dumdum...from the intro shot in LC...

Is this old news, and if so, isn't that another copyright infringement.

TAM

[kevin]

Is this old news, and if so, isn't that another copyright infringement.


Is it a classical score? If so the music may be out of copyright (although the performance probably isn't) and in the public domain.

Also I believe you're allowed to use x seconds of music without paying for the copyright, but it's pretty short time under 10 seconds I think.

[T.A.M.]

I am not sure, I think the ten seconds thing is a myth. As to whether it is a classical score, I am not sure, but like you said the performance probably isn't. It is the the heavy piano part that repeats as they are helicoptering around, then the dance beat comes in, and some music over it, but throughout the whole thing is that "dum dum dumdumdum" piano that was in Kill Bill Vol#2.

[delphi_ote]

It is hard to tell with all the thing sthat get brought up here...but did anyone recognize the opening music in Loose Change, when they are helicoptering around the Statue of Liberty.

I am not a big Tarantino fan, but I was just this minute watching TV, and Kill Bill Volume #2 is on. It is at the point where Uma Thurman and Daryl Hannah are standing off against each other in the shack...and low and behold what music comes on...

that familiar..dum dum dumdum....dum dum dumdum...from the intro shot in LC...

Is this old news, and if so, isn't that another copyright infringement.

TAM
Are they identical? IIRC, Dylan's buddy did the sound track. Maybe he "remixed" that song.

[T.A.M.]

ok, fair enough, if he did, but don't you need permission to use other peoples music, even in a re-mix?

If not, then I should start mixing other peoples stuff and selling it.

[T.A.M.]

the part I am referring to are identical in terms of the musical content, but the performance may be by two different recording artists...impossible to tell, but I just listened to it on Kill Bill Vol #2 on TV, tehn came into my computer, wnet to LC and listened, and they are pretty much identical.

Did my own little search over at the LC forum, and found this...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1826

So apparently it was just another song given to D.A. by Swai on a CD. Others on the site have posted that it is from Kill Bill vol 2. Another said that the Kill Bill music in question, was originally from the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack by Ennio Morricone from 1966. Its name is "Il Profilo Del Destino". That is all well and good, as I am sure that The studio that made Kill Bill Vol #2 would have bought rights to use it...the question is, did Dylan. given he thinks it is just another song from Swai, he probably didn't. Sounds like another potential suit coming Dylan's way...

[mrfreeze]

http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/011110A/http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11999

I'm not sure, but I think some of the posts in there may count as threatening towards the president. Or at least borderline...

[CptColumbo]

the part I am referring to are identical in terms of the musical content, but the performance may be by two different recording artists...impossible to tell, but I just listened to it on Kill Bill Vol #2 on TV, tehn came into my computer, wnet to LC and listened, and they are pretty much identical.

Did my own little search over at the LC forum, and found this...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1826

So apparently it was just another song given to D.A. by Swai on a CD. Others on the site have posted that it is from Kill Bill vol 2. Another said that the Kill Bill music in question, was originally from the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack by Ennio Morricone from 1966. Its name is "Il Profilo Del Destino". That is all well and good, as I am sure that The studio that made Kill Bill Vol #2 would have bought rights to use it...the question is, did Dylan. given he thinks it is just another song from Swai, he probably didn't. Sounds like another potential suit coming Dylan's way...


Where do I send a letter?

BTW anything ever come of the use of Joe's Apartment footage? I sent snail and e-mail to all the interested parties.

[T.A.M.]

I would guess to the company/studio that produced the original "Navajo Joe" soundtrack.

...or to Ennio Morricone, who is credited with the soundtrack for "Navajo Joe" and that song in particular, which is translated into english as "Silluoette of Doom" I believe...

[Regnad Kcin]

...I was a firefighter for 12 years, an iron worker for almost 2 years and I've been running cranes for the last 6 years... mostly hanging iron.
So tell me something, with that kind of experience does anybody in this forum or the other "professionals" who gave their accounts of the WTC events have equal or better qualifications than me?Are you a structural engineer? Yes or no.

It turns my stomach that most of you can see three buildings demolished and your too smart to see that because the USG or NIST's WRITTEN claims are different, and you also claim to KNOW what happened unlike the "truth seekers".It "turns [your] stomach?"

Just incase you didn't understand this, WE are All ONE, and it disgust me that most of you still don't see that either.It "disgust [sic]" you?

I would assume that more of you would have the ability to see through the "programming" we have been exposed to in this country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTNc1karwHM&mode=related&search=I for one am not interested in listening to you lecture from atop your elevated saddle.

I understand it must be difficult to promote your idea(s) when you have no evidence on your side. So naturally your type will resort to obfuscation. Stop.

Since most of your minds don't register the fact the WTC towers were taken down by controlled demolition...The "fact?" I don't think that word means what you think it means.

...it probably hasn't dawned on you that the flag of israel flies next to the american flag at the white house either.
You'll get it one day. ;)Irrationality noted.

[CptColumbo]

Since most of your minds don't register the fact the WTC towers were taken down by controlled demolition, it probably hasn't dawned on you that the flag of israel flies next to the american flag at the white house either.
You'll get it one day. ;)
Where is this? Do you have a picture of this (from a time other than at a photo op where an Israeli diplomat is present)? Or are you speaking metaphorically?

[Orphia Nay]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/361744f9454a180aa.gif

The official Loose Change website is #20. Good work skeptics.

Just saw this. I did the same search yesterday, and the LC forum was the 50th result. Just did the same search again, and it's now 79th.

Note, Screw Loose Change is now first (JREF is 3rd).

[Orphia Nay]

7:00 – 7:30 Alex Jones – progress in the movement


I'm trying to think of a suitable analogy... like trying to drive a 0.5cm tack in with a sledgehammer?

[jhunter1163]

http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/011110A/http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11999

I'm not sure, but I think some of the posts in there may count as threatening towards the president. Or at least borderline...

Damn.. I think I'm gonna send this to the FBI. Let them get a taste of REAL government surveillance.

[Orphia Nay]

I'm trying to think of a suitable analogy... like trying to drive a 0.5cm tack in with a sledgehammer?

No... that's not right. (I got confused by the persistent thought I have that Alex Jones is as dumb as a box of hammers.)

I think I mean something more like trying to drive a 0.5cm rubber tack in with a sledgehammer made of foam.

[Gravy]

I was a firefighter for 12 years, an iron worker for almost 2 years and I've been running cranes for the last 6 years... mostly hanging iron.

So tell me something, with that kind of experience does anybody in this forum or the other "professionals" who gave their accounts of the WTC events have equal or better qualifications than me?
I don't know why you put quotation marks around the word professionals. Do you not respect professionalism?

Yes, there are thousands of professionals who were, and many who still are, directly involved in the 9/11 investigations. They are more qualified than you to say what happened and why, and I certainly value their expertise more than your uninformed opinions.

Here are just a few of their findings relating to WTC 7.

Several demolition teams had reached Ground Zero by 3:00 pm on 9/11, and these individuals witnessed the collapse of WTC 7 from within a few hundred feet of the event.

We have spoken with several who possess extensive experience in explosive demolition, and all reported seeing or hearing nothing to indicate an explosive detonation precipitating the collapse.

As one eyewitness told us, "We were all standing around helpless...we knew full well it was going to collapse. Everyone there knew. You gotta remember there was a lot of confusion and we didn't know if another plane was coming...but I never heard explosions like demo charges. We knew with the damage to the building and how hot the fire was, that building was gonna go, so we just waited, and a little later it went. " http://tinyurl.com/m5kf5
NIST’s lead investigator Shyam Sunder weighs in on the damage to WTC 7:
Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately 10 stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner. http://tinyurl.com/j7vrn
Firefighters on WTC 7:
"The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.” –Daniel Nigro, Chief of Operations at WTC on 9/11. [Fire Engineering, 10/2002]

“So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned. ?– Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. ... I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day [sic] we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski http://tinyurl.com/jbg8l

"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely" - Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y

"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers http://tinyurl.com/gy2f9

"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan http://tinyurl.com/kptv2

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?
?Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?
?Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day. – Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/eofwh

Hayden: By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?

Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.

Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7— did you have to get all of those people out?

Hayden: Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. –Deputy Chief Peter Hayden http://tinyurl.com/zwtrs

WTC Building 7 appears to have suffered significant damage at some point after the WTC Towers had collapsed, according to firefighters at the scene. Firefighter Butch Brandies tells other firefighters that nobody is to go into Building 7 because of creaking and noises coming out of there.* [Firehouse Magazine, 8/02]

“The firefighters made the decision fairly early on not to attempt to fight the fires, due in part to the damage to WTC 7 from the collapsing towers.” FEMA WTC BPS, 5/1/2002, pp. 5-21

Battalion Chief John Norman later recalls, "At the edge of the south face you could see that it is very heavily damaged." [Firehouse Magazine, 5/02]

“The consensus was that it was basically a lost cause and we should not lose anyone else trying to save it.” Along with some others, he goes inside WTC 7 and yells up the stairwells to the fire fighters, “Drop everything and get out." September 11th," Dean Murphy, 2002, pp. 175-176]
Is there some reason we should value your opinion over the findings of these experts who were on the scene?

[Belz...]

I can appreciate that many of you are atheist, but I would love to know how many of you still associate the name of God with Allah.

God, Allah, Shiva, Zeus. 'Tis all the same thing to me.

I was a firefighter for 12 years, an iron worker for almost 2 years and I've been running cranes for the last 6 years... mostly hanging iron.
So tell me something, with that kind of experience does anybody in this forum or the other "professionals" who gave their accounts of the WTC events have equal or better qualifications than me?

How many buildings did you build or demolish in your time as a firefighter ?

It turns my stomach that most of you can see three buildings demolished and your too smart to see that because the USG or NIST's WRITTEN claims are different, and you also claim to KNOW what happened unlike the "truth seekers".

Okay, I'm not sure that was a sentence. I, for one, do not deny that I saw 3 buildings be demolished, that day. The demolitions were even planned, though I'm sure the terrorists didn't expect #7 to come down.

Just incase you didn't understand this, WE are All ONE, and it disgust me that most of you still don't see that either.

What the hell kind of stupid new age tripe is that ?

I would assume that more of you would have the ability to see through the "programming" we have been exposed to in this country.

Again, forgetting that a lot of posters here aren't from the US.

Since most of your minds don't register the fact the WTC towers were taken down by controlled demolition

Register ? Large planes flew into the buildings. THAT doesn't seem to register with SOME people.

, it probably hasn't dawned on you that the flag of israel flies next to the american flag at the white house either.
You'll get it one day. ;)

Not sure exactly where you're taking this one.

[Belz...]

That's right, most of you have faith in spontaneous combustion.

You ARE aware that this is a skeptics forum, rihgt ?

Are ya'll claiming that the firefighters and the other first responders on the scene when the towers fell were lying in their LC interviews ?
Because they certainly did describe what the videos show, a series of explosion, ,,explosions, ,,explosions.

Which doesn't mean there were explosives, ,,explosives, ,,explosives.

It's just an unfortunate consequence that so many religious people are suffering for our ignorance. I think it's because we have injested entirely too much formaldehyde, methanol, and freak amino acid from our primary sources of food.

You can ingest as much as you want. Food doesn't make you ignorant. Refusal to learn does.

[WildCat]

http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/011110A/http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11999

I'm not sure, but I think some of the posts in there may count as threatening towards the president. Or at least borderline...
Every time I use a ninjaproxy link something attempts to redirect my browser to "ad.yieldmanager.com". My anti-spyware software prevents it though, just a heads-up.

[T.A.M.]

meanwhile back over in battyland (LC FORUM)...

Phil Jayhan responding to Nazi wannabe Beastman:

The Zionist ovement is controlled by the International Cult of Lucifer and Luciferianism.

Don't blame Jews for this, as it isn't their faults. It is the fault of the majority of people who are ognorant of them, and their designs....

Check out this link and you might feel more at home;

http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb...wforum.php?f=17

For your viewing pleasure, please turn your dial to:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12075&view=getnewpost

TAM

[StoneWT]

BTW anything ever come of the use of Joe's Apartment footage? I sent snail and e-mail to all the interested parties.


Would you mind enlightening me on this? Does anyone have a page on the documented or potential copyright infringements in LC? It seems this would be a good thing to show to news organizations that interview our 9/11 experts from the forum.

[T.A.M.]

Well there is the obvious Naudet brothers footage which they used I believe 15 times in the original LC. Not sure the status of the alleged suit on that one.

What we were discussing above was the intro music in the current and previous LC films.

the heavy Piano you hear as they are helicoptering around the Statue of liberty is from the 1966 film "Navajo Joe" and was written and performed by Ennio Morricone. That song in particular, is translated into english as "Silluoette of Doom" I believe...

If it was written after copyright laws were in effect, which I believe it was, than even if their guy...SWAE hammered out the piano chords himself, they still need to get permission to use the music, as far as I know...

[Brainster]

Well there is the obvious Naudet brothers footage which they used I believe 15 times in the original LC. Not sure the status of the alleged suit on that one.

What we were discussing above was the intro music in the current and previous LC films.

the heavy Piano you hear as they are helicoptering around the Statue of liberty is from the 1966 film "Navajo Joe" and was written and performed by Ennio Morricone. That song in particular, is translated into english as "Silluoette of Doom" I believe...

If it was written after copyright laws were in effect, which I believe it was, than even if their guy...SWAE hammered out the piano chords himself, they still need to get permission to use the music, as far as I know...

Yes, the people to contact in this case are ASCAP. They are very agressive about pursuing unauthorized use of music.

[MarkyX]

Hey guys, just a little heads up.

I have not recevied the AVI file yet for my Screw Loose Change video.

I am, however, very impatient (and angry) because it's been nearly three days since I contacted him.

I'm splitting the files into ten nubytes segments and hopefully upload all of them (I'm guessing around 30 parts) on YouTube hopefully today.

They are going to be 320x200, while the original AVI should be 640x480.

EDIT: I really hope that when I actually put the Google Video up, it will be promoted heavily. We are getting closer to Sept 11. Promoted twice if it has to. I just hope HotAir and Little Green Footballs doesn't jump the gun too early like they did with 9/11 Deniers Speak.

[T.A.M.]

http://www.current.org/doc/doc0521fairuse.shtml

Interesting article. According to this, I think Dylan is probably in the clear for most of his footage, as long as he gives each piece of footage credit in his end dredits. As to how this would effect is use of the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack music in LC, I am unsure. Seems that he would have to identify it as "Sillouette of Doom", as well as credit the original writer, and then the current artist who performed it. Whether he would need to get "performance" rights, I am not sure after reading the above article.

[negativ]

Now playing at the Loose Change forum:

Bush Is Not A Christian, Secrets Of The NWO And Bohemian Grove (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12159)

In a heart warming tribute to the magic and grandeur of human intelligence, user sleepy2k16 offers up the following:

First In 1962 Operation Northwoods was Introdused to JFK, He said no, and was killed in 1963, I think because he stood in the way of the NWO and People in the Govt killed him and may have framed Lee Oswald. After his death in 1963. Something happened in 1964, Not to familar with it, But in 1964 I think America attacked its own people. I also heard something similar may have happened in 1967. I am 100% Possitive it happened in 1953.

Meanwhile, Bush is a DevilWorshipper

http://www.theresistancemanifesto.com

Well, somebody call up OJ, because with obvious investigative prowess like that, The Real Killer could be found in no time. Hell, it was probably Karl Rove anyway.

The man-on-the-street video at the above URL is disapponting for its utter lack of mob violence, especially at the end. I was hoping to see tasers, nightsticks, pepper spray, and maybe a hyped-up Belgian Mallinois or two, but alas it was not to be. Anyway, sleepy continues:

Christians Arent Members of Bohemian Grove and meet every July and go nude in a coffin and get born again to Lucifer.. And practice Mock child sacrices to the owl (Which is on the $1 Bill)

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/bohemian_grove_exposed.htM

(Scroll down to 1/2 the page)

These people Meet Every July in northern Calirfornia and do this crap, I also heard in the 80's People were murdered on camera for fun.

At this point, I'm breaking in to point out that I heard sleepy2k16's bedsheets smell like pee.

These people believe lucifer is God, and Believe he will rein for 1000 years. This is what the New World Order is about.

Bush said "You are with us...Or you are with the terrorist"

If you arw christian You are considered the terrorist. They want everybody to join this Lucifer Worshipping NWO.

In order to Prove YOU ARE NOT a TERRORIST you will have to take an RFID Verichip IN your RIGHT HAND or FOREHEAD, and Pleage Alliance to Lucifer and the NWO.

They are 600-800 Consentration Camps in america Ready to go.

I think it may already be starting:

First let me tell you all to check out http://www.nbc10.com/news/4077250/detail.html

Hmm, note the name of the spokesman: Michael Marcavage. Note the too-eerie-to-be-coincidental similarity!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miscavige) http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/rock.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/rock.gif



Now, I'm more than capable of some truly demented logical gymnastics at times, but even I can't come up with a response to the whole "Bohemian Grove" thing other than to shrug and say, "so what?"

Before I start Talking about Bohemian Grove, I just want you all to know that I strongly Recommend that you do not discuss this in public or Talk about this where People can hear you. This is something that people who participate in Bohemian Grove, do not want anybody to know about what goes on in Northern California Every July. I can not be held responsible for any Illegal actions taking by evil politicians or members of Bohemian Grove.

Note to sleepy2k16: Just because you lowered the Cones of Silence over your monitor and keyboard when you typed your post does NOT mean that nobody else can see what you wrote.


There are rituals that go on inside Bohemian Grove, supposedly by Pagans and Satanists Alike. These go on for a period of 2 weeks, and the rituals include owl worship and worship of other false gods. Bohemian Grove started in 1872, However these Satanist rituals and owl worship didnt begin until 1873. The Owl worship is an Owl statue appox. 40 feet high and is called Moloch. There is also talk these people either wear black and white robes or do not wear any clothes at all. About 20% of the members engage in public homosexual activities. There Main headquarters is in the Bohemian building in San Francisco.

Do you have a dollar bill in front of you? Take a dollar Bill and on the Front of the dollar near the One, The owl that is worshipped is located between the 1 and the Leaves.

Also notice how the Owl of Bohemian Grove is on the 1 Dollar Bill. I will tell you how 9/11 is on the 10 and 20 Dollar Bills, when I talk about 9/11 in a future Conspiracy, Most people already know there its there, But I will re-share it anyways, just in case you do not know. It tells me how 9/11 was an inside job. I will talk about that in about 2 weeks from now. As for now lets continue with Bohemian Grove.

I've read about the allegedly "occult" ceremony called "The Cremation of Care". I'm not real big on ceremony and ritual, but I think Cremation of Care is actually kinda cool. Maybe I'm a blind, sleeping zombie sheep, but I just think it sounds like a somwhat ostentatious way to say, "this is our playground and in here we shrug off all day-to-day worries and concerns."

Hell, where do I sign up?

I don't understand the fascination with the Freemasons, the Skull & Bones, the Hellfire Club of Ben Franklin's day, and all the rest. As far as I know, none of the "secret societies" have ever been credibly linked to anything other than just being cryptic and having rich and powerful people as members. I'd hate to think that it all boils down to distrust of the rich and powerful, flavored with a pinch of resentment and garnished with a sprig of paranoia.

I wonder, are there any 9/11 CTers who do not also believe in EVERY other conspiracy theory? I've yet to hear anyone say, "oh yeah, the Warren Commission got it mostly right, but the 9/11 Commission, wow. What a pack of viscious lies. They will soon pay for their crimes!"

[StoneWT]

Interesting article. According to this, I think Dylan is probably in the clear for most of his footage, as long as he gives each piece of footage credit in his end dredits. As to how this would effect is use of the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack music in LC, I am unsure. Seems that he would have to identify it as "Sillouette of Doom", as well as credit the original writer, and then the current artist who performed it. Whether he would need to get "performance" rights, I am not sure after reading the above article.


Is it retroactive or can he still be sued for the old versions of LC that didn't give proper credit?

[LashL]

http://www.current.org/doc/doc0521fairuse.shtml

Interesting article. According to this, I think Dylan is probably in the clear for most of his footage, as long as he gives each piece of footage credit in his end dredits. As to how this would effect is use of the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack music in LC, I am unsure. Seems that he would have to identify it as "Sillouette of Doom", as well as credit the original writer, and then the current artist who performed it. Whether he would need to get "performance" rights, I am not sure after reading the above article.

Hmm. I'm not so sure. The exceptions seem to apply only to documentaries and Loose Change is hardly that, given the following definition:

Movies, Television. based on or re-creating an actual event, era, life story, etc., that purports to be factually accurate and contains no fictional elements

:D

[defaultdotxbe]

Movies, Television. based on or re-creating an actual event, era, life story, etc., that purports to be factually accurate and contains no fictional elements

dylans loophole?

[T.A.M.]

Stone:
I am not sure. I don't think he gives credit wrt the "Navajo Joe" song, as last I saw him write, he simply recognized it as "another song given to him by Swae on a CD"...I think he is ignorant to the fact that it is someone elses music...so let him be...his fault...hist trouble.

wrt: Bohemian Grove etc...

So what is right. Where the hell do the CTers get off criticizing others for being excentric...talk about the ultimate pot calling the kettle.

wrt: Factual Documentary...

If the plaintiff were to get a hold of the Korey Rowe "Intentional Errors" quote, they'd be in deep doo-doo.

TAM

[brodski]

http://www.current.org/doc/doc0521fairuse.shtml

As to how this would effect is use of the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack music in LC, I am unsure. Seems that he would have to identify it as "Sillouette of Doom", as well as credit the original writer, and then the current artist who performed it. Whether he would need to get "performance" rights, I am not sure after reading the above article.
I don't think he has any "fair use" defence for his use of "Navajo Joe". From that article Fair use can’t be a cheap way to cop a soundtrack. he is not using a sample of "Navajo Joe" to make a point, there is is nothing intrinsic in the music which is relevant to 9/11 or loose change. He may be able to claim "fair use" with some of his footage, but the theft of music is indefensible.

[60hzxtl]

http://www.current.org/doc/doc0521fairuse.shtml

Interesting article. According to this, I think Dylan is probably in the clear for most of his footage, as long as he gives each piece of footage credit in his end dredits. As to how this would effect is use of the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack music in LC, I am unsure. Seems that he would have to identify it as "Sillouette of Doom", as well as credit the original writer, and then the current artist who performed it. Whether he would need to get "performance" rights, I am not sure after reading the above article.

Uh, no. As a film maker for 20+ years, that is not what this means. Otherwise the stock footage business has just been put out of business.

You still have to pay - but if it has been put before the public, the owner no longer has the right to refuse your permission to buy it and use it. It is not 'help yourself' and a group hug all around. (I was once refused the use of "Gloria" from Van Morrison's publisher.)

We pay for stock footage, often in terms of dollars per second what fair use means is that if it's been broadcast, I can't refuse to sell it to party B if I've made money on it myself, or have sold it to party A. I can't collect money for a song I own on the radio, and then refuse to sell it to you, even if you are a jerk making Loose Change. Or, if the Naudet's sold their footage to CBS, they can't refuse to sell it to the dopes in Oneonta. But the owner sets the price. You aren't buying it by the pound.

Stock footage and resale of music are a source of income, often for years to come. It may be pennies per use, but as the author of "Summer in the City" once told me, "that 3 cents per radio play adds up every year. I like a hot summer." I once had to pay twice for an image of Woody Gutherie. Once to the owner of the picture, (Getty Images) and to the Gutherie estate for his image. I gladly paid, laughing that I paid for the private property of a man who didn't believe in private property!

Irving Berlin is dead, but his estate continues to profit on "White Christmas" and "Easter Parade." Not bad for a dead Jewish guy.

Keep up the pressure about copyrighted material and Dylan and the stooges. It is the responsibility of the copyright holder to protect it. Let them know. They'll want their piece. It ain't show art - it's show business.

[LashL]

dylans loophole?

No, because of the connecting and; in other words, it must both purport to be factually accurate and it must contain no fictional elements.

In addition, given that the loosers are on record as saying that they know it is not factually accurate, I don't think they could use the potential loophole.

[LashL]

Uh, no. As a film maker for 20+ years, that is not what this means. Otherwise the stock footage business has just been put out of business.

You still have to pay - but if it has been put before the public, the owner no longer has the right to refuse your permission to buy it and use it. It is not 'help yourself' and a group hug all around. (I was once refused the use of "Gloria" from Van Morrison's publisher.)

We pay for stock footage, often in terms of dollars per second what fair use means is that if it's been broadcast, I can't refuse to sell it to party B if I've made money on it myself, or have sold it to party A. I can't collect money for a song I own on the radio, and then refuse to sell it to you, even if you are a jerk making Loose Change. Or, if the Naudet's sold their footage to CBS, they can't refuse to sell it to the dopes in Oneonta. But the owner sets the price. You aren't buying it by the pound.

Stock footage and resale of music are a source of income, often for years to come. It may be pennies per use, but as the author of "Summer in the City" once told me, "that 3 cents per radio play adds up every year. I like a hot summer." I once had to pay twice for an image of Woody Gutherie. Once to the owner of the picture, (Getty Images) and to the Gutherie estate for his image. I gladly paid, laughing that I paid for the private property of a man who didn't believe in private property!

Irving Berlin is dead, but his estate continues to profit on "White Christmas" and "Easter Parade." Not bad for a dead Jewish guy.

Keep up the pressure about copyrighted material and Dylan and the stooges. It is the responsibility of the copyright holder to protect it. Let them know. They'll want their piece. It ain't show art - it's show business.

Thanks for the excellent info, 60hzxtl, and for the interesting anecdotes, too.

[MarkyX]

Uploading the video files on Screw Loose Change: Not Freakin' Again edition.

19 parts of this. I will be removing the older Screw Loose Change editions on Google Video and YouTube once I'm done uploading.

[T.A.M.]

60hzxtl:

Thanks for the info. Not only for here, but one of my side hobbies is I help produce my brother's independent films (fictional narratives) and it is good to have that perspective before he or I make any errors in that regard, unwittingly.

If that is the case, than I think D.A> is up the creek, for his entire movie, with minor exception is a collage of other people's footage. The song is just the icing on the cake, so to speak.

TAM

[JamesB]

Now playing at the Loose Change forum:

Bush Is Not A Christian, Secrets Of The NWO And Bohemian Grove (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12159)

In a heart warming tribute to the magic and grandeur of human intelligence, user sleepy2k16 offers up the following:



Well, somebody call up OJ, because with obvious investigative prowess like that, The Real Killer could be found in no time. Hell, it was probably Karl Rove anyway.

The man-on-the-street video at the above URL is disapponting for its utter lack of mob violence, especially at the end. I was hoping to see tasers, nightsticks, pepper spray, and maybe a hyped-up Belgian Mallinois or two, but alas it was not to be. Anyway, sleepy continues:



At this point, I'm breaking in to point out that I heard sleepy2k16's bedsheets smell like pee.



Hmm, note the name of the spokesman: Michael Marcavage. Note the too-eerie-to-be-coincidental similarity!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miscavige) http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/rock.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/rock.gif



Now, I'm more than capable of some truly demented logical gymnastics at times, but even I can't come up with a response to the whole "Bohemian Grove" thing other than to shrug and say, "so what?"



Note to sleepy2k16: Just because you lowered the Cones of Silence over your monitor and keyboard when you typed your post does NOT mean that nobody else can see what you wrote.




I've read about the allegedly "occult" ceremony called "The Cremation of Care". I'm not real big on ceremony and ritual, but I think Cremation of Care is actually kinda cool. Maybe I'm a blind, sleeping zombie sheep, but I just think it sounds like a somwhat ostentatious way to say, "this is our playground and in here we shrug off all day-to-day worries and concerns."

Hell, where do I sign up?

I don't understand the fascination with the Freemasons, the Skull & Bones, the Hellfire Club of Ben Franklin's day, and all the rest. As far as I know, none of the "secret societies" have ever been credibly linked to anything other than just being cryptic and having rich and powerful people as members. I'd hate to think that it all boils down to distrust of the rich and powerful, flavored with a pinch of resentment and garnished with a sprig of paranoia.

I wonder, are there any 9/11 CTers who do not also believe in EVERY other conspiracy theory? I've yet to hear anyone say, "oh yeah, the Warren Commission got it mostly right, but the 9/11 Commission, wow. What a pack of viscious lies. They will soon pay for their crimes!"

Korey Rowe talked about that once during a radio interview.

[LashL]

Uploading the video files on Screw Loose Change: Not Freakin' Again edition.

19 parts of this. I will be removing the older Screw Loose Change editions on Google Video and YouTube once I'm done uploading.

Terrific! I'm looking forward to watching them, Mark.

[T.A.M.]

Funny...
so now Stephen Jones is concentrating of Flourine and Zinc. What's next...

S.Jones: Now we are focusing on quantities of paper and ash, as well as elements consistent with there being large amounts of excrement in the rubble. This will conclusively show the towers wer brought down by BULLSHAITE!"

[T.A.M.]

Oh, and he is recently working on this magnificent scientific study...

Scholars "shavings and woodchip" experiments (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Experiments-to-test-NIST-orange-glow-hypothesis.html)

In an attempt to disprove the NIST "orange glow" theory, Jones et al have performed "experiments" where they add shavings and chips of various organic materials, to molten aluminum, to see if it glows "orange".

Seems the Scholars were quite annoyed by the NIST report, as there are suddenly numerous articles on it to be found at their site...

[Kent1]

Funny...
so now Stephen Jones is concentrating of Flourine and Zinc. What's next...

S.Jones: Now we are focusing on quantities of paper and ash, as well as elements consistent with there being large amounts of excrement in the rubble. This will conclusively show the towers wer brought down by BULLSHAITE!"

Actually it would be a good thing to pin down.
What would be the best answer for Flourine and Zinc?

[T.A.M.]

For starters, he must mean Fluorine in its ionic form, fluoride. Elementally, Fluorine is extremely unstable and explosive.

In its ionic form you can find it in tap water, toothpaste, insecticides (fluoride), air conditioning, refridgerators (fluorochlorohydrocarbons).

Zinc - well beyond its use to galvanize nails and screws to prevent corrosion, it is used in batteries, paint, rubber, medicines...in general in tonnes of things. It is the 4th most common metal.

oh...and it is the metal used to make "cents".

[Kent1]

Oh, and he is recently working on this magnificent scientific study...

Scholars "shavings and woodchip" experiments (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Experiments-to-test-NIST-orange-glow-hypothesis.html)

In an attempt to disprove the NIST "orange glow" theory, Jones et al have performed "experiments" where they add shavings and chips of various organic materials, to molten aluminum, to see if it glows "orange".

Seems the Scholars were quite annoyed by the NIST report, as there are suddenly numerous articles on it to be found at their site...
Some plastic shavings and woodchips? You've got to be kidding.

[T.A.M.]

Even better than the the fact that he makes no mention of the test conditions, the variables, such as quantity of each tried, etc...are the videos. They are tiny poor quality snippets that show only the metal, already melted, being poured out onto a dirt old table, and no orange. Never shows us adding the materials or what materials or how much of each...absolutely pathetic.

[Kent1]

Even better than the the fact that he makes no mention of the test conditions, the variables, such as quantity of each tried, etc...are the videos. They are tiny poor quality snippets that show only the metal, already melted, being poured out onto a dirt old table, and no orange. Never shows us adding the materials or what materials or how much of each...absolutely pathetic.
Thanks for the comments on Flourine and Zinc. I'm trying to hear from as many sources as possible so I can rule out these latest two elements.

[MarkyX]

Well I uploaded all my movies; it just needs confirmation now.

19 and a half parts. Hooray.

[StoneWT]

Jones is notorious for conducting rigged 'experiments'. He manages to conduct the experiment so that it is guaranteed to confirm his theory. He is either a gross liar or one of the most incompetent professors in the U.S.

[CptColumbo]

Would you mind enlightening me on this? Does anyone have a page on the documented or potential copyright infringements in LC? It seems this would be a good thing to show to news organizations that interview our 9/11 experts from the forum.

The opening shot of LC 2nd ed. Is taken from the movie Joe's Apartment. Since at one point they were charging people for the DVD and to view in small screenings, this is a clear infringement of copyright.

[ktesibios]

Uh, no. As a film maker for 20+ years, that is not what this means. Otherwise the stock footage business has just been put out of business.

You still have to pay ...

Umm, as someone who has worked in commercial recording studios for nearly twenty years, I'd just like to chime in that the same thing applies to sound- SFX and music.

Back when I worked at Sigma, we had extensive commercial libraries of sound effects and generic music- if you needed, say, the sound of a crackling campfire for a radio or TV commercial I could have dozens of them ready for you to choose from in just a few minutes- and they all cost money.

The fees weren't onerous and the system was convenient. If you used SFX or music from a commercial library the engineer would simply note them on the work order and the billing people would take care of the payments and add them to your invoice along with the charges for time and materials, so that you only had to write one check to pay for the whole megillah, but using them without paying for them was definitely not on.

Cheating in something that's going to be on the radio or TV all over an entire region, or perhaps the nation, is not a terribly smart thing to do. The more widely your production is heard, the more likely it is that you'll have an irate copyright holder on your hands.

Nowadays you've even gotta pay for samples from other peoples' recordings, so I don't see how something like Loose Change could grab a piece of music from another movie gratis.

[Brainster]

By Will Sullivan (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060903/11conspiracy.htm) is up. Will doesn't play the phony "neutral" coverage game with this article; note the header: 9-11 conspiracy theorists may be gaining ground, but they are selling the big lie. No direct quotes from our side but SLC (blog and movie) get mentioned as do (I suspect) Abby and Gravy, although not by name:

A blog and movie called Screw Loose Change both specialize in snarky commentary about Loose Change's flimsy evidence. On a recent Saturday at ground zero, bickering between the 9/11 Truthers and their critics, who have also taken to showing up weekly, grew so heated that they were broken up by a police officer.:D

[kevin]

http://www.current.org/doc/doc0521fairuse.shtml

Interesting article. According to this, I think Dylan is probably in the clear for most of his footage, as long as he gives each piece of footage credit in his end dredits.

Might need to mark it in the film itself and they need to be careful they use just enough to make their point. Using too much could cause them problem.

As to how this would effect is use of the "Navajo Joe" Soundtrack music in LC, I am unsure. Seems that he would have to identify it as "Sillouette of Doom", as well as credit the original writer, and then the current artist who performed it. Whether he would need to get "performance" rights, I am not sure after reading the above article.

The music is being used to set the mood, this is not a documentary about the music nor is the music pertinent to the point they are trying to make at that scene. If the music is still under copyright (and there are multiple copyrights including the actual score and the performance of the score) then it is not covered by fair use in this documentary.

[T.A.M.]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html?internalid=AOT_h_09-03-2006_why_the_9/11_co

I just posted the above article in the "editorials" section as well. It is a really good article. Through the first 2 pages you are wondering...where is he going with this, as he is talking of the "allure" of the CT side of things, of being a part of "the movement" but in the end he sums it up...as alluring as that side is...it is not based in fact or science...and the truth is much more mundane and ordinary...a must read.

TAM