Loose Change - Part IV

[Darth Rotor]

"Chomsky, you're a New World Order shill and I've got twice the brain you've got with both arms tied behind my back".


Chomsky may be a NWO shill, but Jones being twice as smart? Chomsky is bloody sharp, too bad he's a bleeding heart, America hating pundit.

DR

[stateofgrace]

Welcome Zach,

Your website is a breath of fresh air as is your understanding of these events and your ability see beyond the nonsense does you credit.

Well done, you give hope to silly old codgers like me.

[negativ]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4162315283354424113&hl=en

I am now compelled, as if by a force more powerful than thermite, to go and compose greasy teenage lovesongs to my latest heartthrob: Abby.

I'll probably sound exactly like Frank Zappa's Cruisin' With Reubin And The Jets.

[Abbyas]

That was fantastic! Gravy, you're amazing. I can't believe how much information you could just throw down in the thermite discussion. Really, just too good for words.

The dude is a walking reference manual down there.

Right before I met him down there, he sent me a pm saying "If you have any questions you can't answer, just point them to me."

I remember thinking "Oh, yeah? Tell me I can't hold me own, grumblegrumble."

Cut to the next day: "Umm, Maaark?"

[T.A.M.]

OMG Abby...

I am only 1/3rd through your video, and I may send you a bill for a new computer monitor. I have rarely been made as angry as when they got into it with that poor old guy that called them "Schmucks!" I was so angry I wanted to jump into my screen and punch them out for him...

I am going to watch more, because I have to, and because I know you will add a sense of humour to it, that will allow my pulse to return to normal...

TAM

[jon]

thanks for the link to the Chomsky interview. I especially like the way that Jones waits until Chomsky is off the phone before launching into the insults...

I like Chomsky's bleeding heart hatred of America ;) That radio clip would be great to circulate on left-wing forums etc - Jones does not come out of it looking good :D

[T.A.M.]

Abby;

I love it...you have to make a sequel. I hope you don't mind, but I sent the link to Damian Penney, who runs Daimnation, a pretty big blog. Hopefully he will link it (he is a personal friend).

TAM

[Belz...]

Spare time, eh ? Well, I'll be even MORE impressed if you say that you work full time while going to night classes, leaving you all of 16 minutes per day for eating, sleeping and going to the bathroom as well as work on your site. ;)

I've finally read your site, Zach. Very nice and professional work.

[azazal]

Slight derial, but how long till LCers are screaming about this one?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212800,00.html

CAIRO, Egypt — Al-Jazeera aired on Thursday what it called previously unshown footage in which Al Qaeda chief Usama bin Laden is seen meeting with some of the Sept. 11 hijackers.

[chipmunk stew]

Slight derial, but how long till LCers are screaming about this one?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212800,00.html
Not long:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12583

(Ninjafied link): http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/001110A/http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12583

[T.A.M.]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2406059

There is a link on the page linked above that allows you to watch some of the footage while they are discussing it.

It definitely shows Binalshibh meeting with Osama. Binalshibh was the guy who couldn't get into America, and was suppose to be the 4th Pilot.

Nice find

TAM

[EvilBiker]

Oh man....

Abby, your vid rocks. Kudos to your inner calm.

Gravy, I wish I had that ability to hold information at my fingertips like you do.

[loveable boozer]

I love you guys! *sniff* :)

[/loveable boozer]

It's little snippets like this that make my narrow and lonely skeptic path worthwhile.

[negativ]

Quote of the day by Alex Jones after Chomsky has put down the telephone:

There's no way I could bring myself to listen to that. It would be like watching Keith Richards and Helen Thomas having "carnal relations".

[NDBoston]

duplication

[T.A.M.]

The only trouble, from the footage I have seen of the new tape, is that it shows Osama with Binalshibh, which is great, but then cuts to footage of the two hijakcers speaking. It is a cut to a different place, so they will simply say it was edited together. The footage of the hijackers looks like alot of the footage in the video "The Usual Suspects", which is a great video in and of itself.

[NDBoston]

Why do "truthers" keep mentioning WKJO? It's nothing except for a guy in a one man act spouting off. It's not proof, it's fiction for god's sake.

[pgwenthold]

So is skunkrider serious?

oh come on! just F****** watch WKJO and you'll realize why that's a possibility..
because Al Qaeda does exist.. it's just not a real terrorist organisation, but a drug cartell.

Al Qaeda is not a real terrorist organization?

Why are lo(o)sers willing to associate themselves with idiots like that?

Moronic statements like that do far more to harm the CT cause in the minds of fencesitters than any skeptic could ever do (at least with skeptics the loosers appear to be arguing). Yet, skeptics are banned, but idiots post away.

[CurtC]

In Abby's video, when Mark is talking to the Looser about thermite, in the background is the "Millenium Hilton." What's up with that spelling? The only place I've seen "Millenium" spelled with one "N" is at the Ratbags website, where the owner refers to his work as The Millenium Project:We all know that "millennium" comes from the Latin words "mille" and "annus" and means a thousand years. The word "millenium" comes from the Latin words "mille" and "anus" and means something else. This web site is devoted to the millenium of sites which don't deserve a place on the Web. We are not putting them on a pedestal - we are offering them a stool.

The site skewers stuff like Intelligent Design, homeopathy, chirpractic, etc. In other words, one like us. Is that his hotel?

[T.A.M.]

Apparently Gordon Ross and Craig Furlong have put out a paper for the "Scholars" that is suppose to prove that the seismic data from 9/11 proves it was an inside job...

http://www.st911.org/

TAM

[tsig]

The dude is a walking reference manual down there.

Right before I met him down there, he sent me a pm saying "If you have any questions you can't answer, just point them to me."

I remember thinking "Oh, yeah? Tell me I can't hold me own, grumblegrumble."

Cut to the next day: "Umm, Maaark?"

Just a fantastic film, I actually was able to watch it all unlike the Loose Change et. al. , those films make my mind lock up and I have to reboot. That hurts!

I saw that when a Plane Denier was confronted by an eyewitness he went into the Gish Gallop, asking questions faster than the guy could answer. I think this is because when faced with contadictory evidence the cogniative disonance really kicks in.

The eyewitness should have asked the PD,Are you calling me a liar? Confrontational? Sure, but more satisfying than reasoning with the unreasoning.

ps. What Delphi said.

psyhco nina

[Arus808]

Aloha all,

Just wanted to say that I sat and read through all four threads (YES all of them) and am glad to see such rational debates as well as humor interlaced with arguments here on this board, concerning 9/11. I've been a lurker for much, and decided to join, since its close to 9/11/2006.

I've passed on Screw Loose Change to people I know, and pointed others to many of the websites that were presented in the four threads (and now, other threads here) concerning 9/11.

Of course, there are still a few "truthers" out there that live in their own world (Im debating 6 of them on Scam.com in their political and their Controversial forums - drop by sometime ^_^) . I honestly can't believe how these people can believe the crap that these conspiracy theories want you to believe.

Abby, your video hade me in tears; I just enjoyed your narration. Keep it up!

To MarkyX (as you are known on YouTube), I've followed and bookmarked all your videos. Just too bad that the truthers have to post comments that were long debunked to your hard work.

To JamesB and Brainster, your blog provides entertainment in the dull days in the office.

Who did i miss? well, if I missed you guys, a big mahalo to you for providing links and well thought out discussions. Im not as articulate as you folks in disproving the cter's claims, so I just try to push people to this site. Of course, its like trying to get people to go to the dentist.

Hopefully, I can learn more and make my arguments stronger.


And I was once a "Looser", that is, when I saw the first edition of Loose Change, I thought it was "real", but Im not "dumb" to just sit back and take everything it stated at face value. With just one google search, I realize how much facts were missing from those filmmakers "mockumentary". Yes, if its the truth, then why would there need to be more than one version?

[Pardalis]

Welcome Arus808

And I was once a "Looser", that is, when I saw the first edition of Loose Change, I thought it was "real", but Im not "dumb" to just sit back and take everything it stated at face value. With just one google search, I realize how much facts were missing from those filmmakers "mockumentary". Yes, if its the truth, then why would there need to be more than one version?

That just made my day. There is still hope. Thanks Arus! :)

[Brainster]

Who did i miss? well, if I missed you guys, a big mahalo to you for providing links and well thought out discussions. Im not as articulate as you folks in disproving the cter's claims, so I just try to push people to this site. Of course, its like trying to get people to go to the dentist.

Just tell them to go to Universal Seed--oh, wait a minute, that's my Chuck Sheen persona!

Welcome to the board, Arus! We appreciate the compliments!

[tsig]

Aloha all,

Just wanted to say that I sat and read through all four threads (YES all of them) and am glad to see such rational debates as well as humor interlaced with arguments here on this board, concerning 9/11. I've been a lurker for much, and decided to join, since its close to 9/11/2006.


I've been working on this thread for several weeks and have just caught up to the present. Glad to see I had company.

Welcome to JREF. If you can keep up. The volume and speed of posts are !!!

[Arus808]

Im there with you. It took me two months to get through the four threads.

[LashL]

My limit's about 75GB/month, if it does get to that point I'll probably end up moving it to my Dreamhost account.

Welcome, Zach!

Terrific site - truly wonderful work you've done there!

[DanKirby]

Not long:
s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12583

(Ninjafied link): ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/001110A/http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12583

"He has a W stamped on his head!"

Good grief, those guys are sad.

[MarkyX]

Going to test out the censorship on this board right now..

They *********** complain at me for 9/11 Deniers Speak on "Character Attacks", yet these ***************** circle jerk with a picture of Abby over a 15 minute video?

[LashL]

Aloha all,



Welcome, Arus808.

This really is a great site at which to find facts and evidence to strengthen your knowledge base and to develop cogent arguments, unlike the conspiracy sites which, as you have discovered, are wholly lacking in critical thought, use only the "facts" that suit their purposes, and cannot stand to be introduced to actual facts and evidence.

Again, welcome.

[LashL]

They *********** complain at me for 9/11 Deniers Speak on "Character Attacks",

They are delusional. They cannot properly accuse you of "character attacks" when 9/11 Deniers Speak consists of the deniers' own ugly words, mockery, and scorn heaped upon victims and their families.


yet these ***************** circle jerk with a picture of Abby over a 15 minute video?

Well, the deniers are not noted for their intelligence. They probably do not even recognize their own vileness, and they probably do not recognize the difference between attacking someone on a personal level without cause (as they have done to Abby) and bringing to light the ugliness of one's own words (as the 911 Deniers Speak video does).

[Arus808]

Going to test out the censorship on this board right now..

They *********** complain at me for 9/11 Deniers Speak on "Character Attacks", yet these ***************** circle jerk with a picture of Abby over a 15 minute video?



No Marky, this is GOOD evidence. Please, keep these comments because whenever you want to prove why truthers are nothing more than adolescent neanderthals, you have these "quotes" to back up their behaviour.

[money]

Wow, great video Abby.

Those guys are a bunch of clowns...

[T.A.M.]

Welcome DanKirby to the JREF Skeptics Forum on Conspiracy Theories. Debate here can be heated, but is always fair. If your evidence holds water, than you will do fine, if it doesn't people will call you on it. What ever your opinion, it will be allowed, if not accepted.

TAM (unofficial welcome committee member)
:D

oops...lol...you were actually here before me...ah, welcome anyway...:)

[Belz...]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4162315283354424113&hl=en

Just watched it. Nice stuff.

Shows how much emotion we're (read : you're) likely to see on Monday. Damn I hate these guys.

I have one criticism, however. There's ONE thing wrong about the whole video:

Not. Enough. Abby.

:loveatfirstsight:

[Belz...]

Just wanted to say that I sat and read through all four threads (YES all of them) and am glad to see such rational debates as well as humor interlaced with arguments here on this board, concerning 9/11. I've been a lurker for much, and decided to join, since its close to 9/11/2006.

Very nice of you to read all four. That takes some guts.

Of course, there are still a few "truthers" out there that live in their own world (Im debating 6 of them on Scam.com in their political and their Controversial forums - drop by sometime ^_^) .

Tell them Belz... calls them dorks.

Who did i miss?

Who do you think ?? :mad:

And I was once a "Looser", that is, when I saw the first edition of Loose Change, I thought it was "real", but Im not "dumb" to just sit back and take everything it stated at face value. With just one google search, I realize how much facts were missing from those filmmakers "mockumentary". Yes, if its the truth, then why would there need to be more than one version?

Ah, yes. The rare ability to check facts for oneself. [Obi-Wan voice] Use the facts, Arus. Let go! [/Obi-Wan, as Arus switched off his targetting computer.]

[Kent1]

Apparently Gordon Ross and Craig Furlong have put out a paper for the "Scholars" that is suppose to prove that the seismic data from 9/11 proves it was an inside job...

http://www.st911.org/

TAM

Don't worry, I believe we will be covering that one in the Debunking Journal. We got a big laugh when we read that one. I could start with the fact that the basement explosions wouldn't make Love waves.
http://www.vibrationdata.com/Newsletters/November2001_NL.pdf

Or that we have Pavel Hlava's impact times of 8:46:28 9:02:56
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2hit2/
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc1hit2/

We've got lots more but we're still finishing research to double check everything.



Also, the Debunking Journal just got a nod in Inside Higher Education
http://insidehighered.com/views/2006/09/06/mclemee

[delphi_ote]

Who did i miss?
Gravy and gumboot are fountains of knowledge and dilligent researchers. Don't ever miss their posts.

Welcome to the board! :)

[delphi_ote]

Not. Enough. Abby.
Definitely. If she's the one behind it all, I'll need to study her more closely. :D

[Arus808]

OOps, props to GRAVY , BELZ and all. (how did i miss GRavy? )

Anyone have links to any video that show the collapse of WTC 7 from the southside, that is unobstructed? Some dont believe that there was huge damage to the south side.

[defaultdotxbe]

this came up at the SLC blog, i thought it was really finny

Al Jazeera... Al Qaeda... sounds suspicious to me

You do realize that "al" is Arabic for the, right?

[Belz...]

OOps, props to GRAVY , BELZ and all. (how did i miss GRavy? )

Anyone have links to any video that show the collapse of WTC 7 from the southside, that is unobstructed? Some dont believe that there was huge damage to the south side.

Really...

[Kent1]

Really...

Well we know it was enough for the perimeter wall to become detached
http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.htm
Although there is still some debate as to what specific damage this shows.

For another picture of the hole see Steves slide show
http://www.dotphoto.com/Flashtool/GuestViewShow.asp?SID=106345

[MarkyX]

Chomsky may be a NWO shill, but Jones being twice as smart? Chomsky is bloody sharp, too bad he's a bleeding heart, America hating pundit.

DR

Just listened at the 40 minute mark. Alex Jones is an immature jackass.

If he is seriously a patriot, I really hope the government continues to piss him off for the rest of his life. He should never have any political power whatsoever.

The man has a mind of a child.

[Brainster]

Why do "truthers" keep mentioning WKJO? It's nothing except for a guy in a one man act spouting off. It's not proof, it's fiction for god's sake.

I suspect it's because none of us debunkers can manage to sit through the movie long enough to tear it to shreds. I managed fifteen minutes and then had to lie down with a headache.

[MarkyX]

I suspect it's because none of us debunkers can manage to sit through the movie long enough to tear it to shreds. I managed fifteen minutes and then had to lie down with a headache.

You went longer than a second?

[Dog Town]

Alex Jones is an immature jackass.

That would explain hanging out in bars, tearing up 1$ bills, with the LTW crew! While declaring, " I don't care about the money" !
Suuuurprisssse, surpise...Shots?

DT

[Axiom_Blade]

thanks for the link to the Chomsky interview. I especially like the way that Jones waits until Chomsky is off the phone before launching into the insults...

I like Chomsky's bleeding heart hatred of America ;) That radio clip would be great to circulate on left-wing forums etc - Jones does not come out of it looking good :D

Chomsky's often been accused of hating America. His response is that "criticism of" is not the same as "hatred of", and that if he actually hated America, he wouldn't try to change things here, he would just leave.

I don't think that anybody can really be into both Jones and Chomsky. I would NOT consider Jones left-wing at all, really, and Chomsky has said some very negative things about conspiracy theories.

This is the first time I've ever heard Jones. All I can say is...WOW. People actually follow this guy like he's some leader?!!
He makes Limbaugh look like a paragon of intelligence and honesty.

[Dog Town]

This is the first time I've ever heard Jones. All I can say is...WOW. People actually follow this guy like he's some leader?!!
He makes Limbaugh look like a paragon of intelligence and honesty.

Have we ever seen the two together? Hmmmm!

[Axiom_Blade]

Didja like the way that ended?

JONES: That Chomsky was really sneaky, wasn't he?
CALLER: Well, I've seen a bunch like him. What's the last letter in his name?
JONES: Y.
CALLER: Okay.

*nudge nudge wink wink*

[MarkyX]

BLAH

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/


Ladies and gentlemen, a drumroll...

Democracy Now with Amy Goodman, 8 AM, September 11th, 2006. I'll be on debating David Dunbar of Popular Mechanics, in studio, for broadcast on TV and radio. (edit, not Davin Coburn)
How's that for a 1-2 punch?

[Brainster]

Chomsky's often been accused of hating America. His response is that "criticism of" is not the same as "hatred of", and that if he actually hated America, he wouldn't try to change things here, he would just leave.

I don't think that anybody can really be into both Jones and Chomsky. I would NOT consider Jones left-wing at all, really, and Chomsky has said some very negative things about conspiracy theories.

This is the first time I've ever heard Jones. All I can say is...WOW. People actually follow this guy like he's some leader?!!
He makes Limbaugh look like a paragon of intelligence and honesty.

The most valid criticism of Chomsky is actually applicable to Jones. They both approach the history of the post-WWII foreign policy of the United States as if we lived in a vacuum, as if there were no rival power out there called the Soviet Union. It's like we invaded Vietnam for no reason. You can argue the validity of the Vietnam War without denying that there was indeed a bear in the woods.

Jones I would characterize as an extreme libertarian, almost an anarchist. I don't think he fits anywhere along a right/left line, which is why he was equally as strident and shrill about Clinton in the 1990s.

Jones gained a lot of credibility in the conspiracy community when he claimed on his TV show in the summer of 2001 that the government was going to stage an attack on the US and blame it on Osama. This seems to have fueled his rise to prominence.

Don't underestimate his ability to attract a lot of people of below average intelligence. His daddy was probably a used car salesman and his grandpa a carnival barker. And they were good at it.

[greyleonard]

Thanks TAM, this is a really nice forum. I mostly just put that page together in my spare time.

Very impressive, Zach - I appreciate your hard work.
I'll welcome you to JREF even though I'm a newbie.

If you're trying to keep tabs on response, there's another thread about your work right here: democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x113751

[StoneWT]

BLAH

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/


Quote:
Ladies and gentlemen, a drumroll...

Democracy Now with Amy Goodman, 8 AM, September 11th, 2006. I'll be on debating David Dunbar of Popular Mechanics, in studio, for broadcast on TV and radio. (edit, not Davin Coburn)
How's that for a 1-2 punch?



Gawd, Dylan is going to get his arse handed to him. This is going to be a trainwreck for him. Amy Goodman did a good job trying to keep David Ray Griffin honest during the debate with Chip Berlet. I think she'll do the same with Dylan.

Do you think this punk kid actually believes he will 'win' the debate? My money is that he knows he'll get his teeth knocked in and only wants to use the deabte for publicity. CTs consider spouting the same tired rhetoric to be 'winning' even if the other side debunks the points as the CT is self-evidently troof.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I have contacted the College of Engineering at BYU to confirm these quotes. If I get approval from them I will post their reply in full here.

What I sent

As always, making an effort for transparency, I did want to update, that I have not heard back from the head of the BYU Civil Engineering dept. :(

[negativ]

Do you think this punk kid actually believes he will 'win' the debate? My money is that he knows he'll get his teeth knocked in and only wants to use the deabte for publicity. CTs consider spouting the same tired rhetoric to be 'winning' even if the other side debunks the points as the CT is self-evidently troof.

The New Improved CT media interface script:
We're just asking questions.
We want people to do their own research and find out what *really* happened.
The government owes a full and complete accounting of that tragic day to the American people, and especially to the families of the victims.
The government must be accountable to the people.
George Bush is Hitler and anyone who doesn't agree is an infidel, I mean asleep, I mean sheeple, I mean stupid, I mean umm tragically deceived.

[Zach]

Very impressive, Zach - I appreciate your hard work.
I'll welcome you to JREF even though I'm a newbie.

If you're trying to keep tabs on response, there's another thread about your work right here: democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x113751
Oh boy...

The so called internet detectives are jealous as hell and scared of the power of Loose Change. Yeah, that pack of lies is sooo frightening.

[Dog Town]

Zach, I can say nothing that others haven't ! You Rock Pal ! Nice job.

[Alareth]

The so called internet detectives are jealous as hell and scared of the power of Loose Change.

I'll admit it. I'm scared as hell at the power of Loose Change.

The power to distort the truth and influence the easily confused.

Sure, they are "just asking questions". They just don't want the answers.

[Pardalis]

I'll admit it. I'm scared as hell at the power of Loose Change.

Sometimes I'm more scared of denialism than terrorism. There's something dangerous and downright frightening about ordinary people letting themselves trully believe in such nonsense.

[Alareth]

If anyone happens to see my admission of fear on LCF being misquoted out of context please let me know ;)

[Submersible]

You can if you order online... knock yourself out (http://www.puttingitright.com.au/ckshop.php?item=2558&ret=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.puttingitright.com.au%2Fcksho p.php%3Fpage%3D1%26keyword%3Dorganic%2Bapricot%2Bk ernels).
:rolleyes:



Did you happen to notice the location of the source you provided in your link?
"If you are looking for the best supply of Vitamin B17 available in Australia, then this is it."

Not suspicious in the slightest that it is hard to get raw apricot seeds:
Cyanide poisoning information. (http://www.inchem.org/documents/antidote/antidote/ant02.htm) Note especially that Laetrile (B17) has caused deaths through cyanide poisoning. I also see that lima beans are on par with apricot seeds (9 and 10 mg/100g,) and that tapioca puts them both to shame (245g/100g.)

That's it for lima beans for me. Luckily I never liked apricot pits or tapioca.

Lest you think the previous site is part of a US conspiracy, here is a German site (http://www.giftpflanzen.com/prunoidae.html) that mentions the poisonous effects of apricot seeds.

And in your effort to prove me wrong you point out that at the very least there are two different products that can be purchased from every grocery store in this country that contain more cyanide than B-17.

Apple seeds contain cyanide.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99515.htm

I just wanted to come back and thank you two for helping me prove my point.

Oh, and one more thing.
Do any of you know when was the last time that a major television network or an investigative news reporter was able to address the contents of the American MILK supply?

http://www.thegreatboycott.net/BGH_Trial.html

I read these post last night... I'm debating with myself on if I should read anymore of your exellent replies, or just ignore most of you to prevent myself from insulting you right back.

[Submersible]

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. ... I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out." - Richard Banaciski http://tinyurl.com/jbg8l

“7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved.” –Firefighter Steve Modica http://tinyurl.com/mc898.

"It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members." - Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y

Once the fires developed, according to eyewitness accounts and the NIST investigation, flames were seen on floors 3, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 22, 29, and 30.

Submersible, I hope you're learning that you've been relying on very poor sources of information about 9/11.

Maybe your right, but this is what turned me on to the whole 9/11 disaster after I had somewhat put it all past me::

http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_lostvoicesfiredept.html

Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta told the families that he had not known the tape existed until very recently. Later, he declined to discuss its contents, but said it had a powerful effect on him. "Every time I've seen videotapes, listened to audio recordings or read the accounts of firefighters and their actions on Sept. 11, I've felt the same thing: an extraordinary sense of awe at their incredible professionalism and bravery."

The Port Authority tapes prove the "official report" that explains the outrageous number of firefighter deaths, that was signed by him and the mayor, was a straight up lie.
Maybe my mind got caught up in the conspiracy again because...
well because the FDNY Commissioner and the mayor of NYC was LYING about the reason so many firemen died that day.

"I didn't hear fear, I didn't hear panic," she said. "When the tape is made public to the world, people will hear that they all went about their jobs without fear, and selflessly."

And you have posted quotes from firemen and their chief's which claim that they were afraid that the building was going to "fall down" .

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema/fig-5-19.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2987&d=1157629710

This isn't a "huge" fire compared to the size of the structure, since you've made it obvious that you cannot see through the smoke screen... at least you posted an image that proves that there was NO fire showing on that side of the building prior to collapse.
Look at the other building right next to it, there is structural damage to that building as well, but for some reason there wasn't a single fire caused by the collapse of the twin towers.
hmmmm.

The timing is much longer than that when you consider that there is internal failure. What you see is only what is happening to the outside of the building.

Damn, I'm not even right when I use the statistics provided by the NIST report.
Bull. Fires were huge and engulfed much of the building. We've shown this over and over again. Plus they burned unfought for over seven hours. So I tend not to 'consider' things that are lies.

No, smoke engulfed most of the building.
And like I stated previously, it's awfully suspicious that the FDNY was prepared for tower 7 to "fall down" seven hours before it finally plunged to the ground.
And it doesn't. You are mixing your stupidity and your paranoia.

http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/7/8/6/1/9961687-9961690-slarge.jpg

You follow the words of your leader, and I'll follow the words of mine.

[greyleonard]

Oh boy...
from DU thread: The so called internet detectives are jealous as hell and scared of the power of Loose Change. Yeah, that pack of lies is sooo frightening.

Yep, that reply is priceless and worthless at once, eh?
He's of the mind that it doesn't matter how full of lies the movie is as long it's 'brings people to the issue of 9/11 Truth'.

Okayyyyy.

[Alareth]

Yep, that reply is priceless and worthless at once, eh?
He's of the mind that it doesn't matter how full of lies the movie is as long it's 'brings people to the issue of 9/11 Truth'.

Okayyyyy.

The facts only get in the way of "Truth"

[Brainster]

Maybe your right, but this is what turned me on to the whole 9/11 disaster after I had somewhat put it all past me::

http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_lostvoicesfiredept.html

The Port Authority tapes prove the "official report" that explains the outrageous number of firefighter deaths, that was signed by him and the mayor, was a straight up lie.
Maybe my mind got caught up in the conspiracy again because...
well because the FDNY Commissioner and the mayor of NYC was LYING about the reason so many firemen died that day.

Explore this issue. Just drop the ridiculous theory that the government was behind the attacks.

And you have posted quotes from firemen and their chief's which claim that they were afraid that the building was going to "fall down" .

This isn't a "huge" fire compared to the size of the structure, since you've made it obvious that you cannot see through the smoke screen... at least you posted an image that proves that there was NO fire showing on that side of the building prior to collapse.

Ah, now we're back on Building 7 are we? But of course what we see is smoke pouring through every broken window in that building, a heck of a lot of which happen to be on the South Side.

Look at the other building right next to it, there is structural damage to that building as well, but for some reason there wasn't a single fire caused by the collapse of the twin towers.
hmmmm.

That building "right next to it" is World Financial 3, which is roughly 50% farther away from either of the towers than WTC 7, but which nonetheless sustained substantial damage. As for the fire in WTC 7 I think there's a little clue in the fact that it was first reported immediately after the collapse of WTC 1, which had a burning airplane and several floors of burning furniture, paper, carpets, etc inside it.

[apathoid]

I've been browsing the Pentagon section for the last hour or so and was ready to hang myself until I found this post:

Talk about a scary day. I live in the Pentagon Row apartments over there on South Joyce Street. That Tuesday sucked hard. I actually had relatives in-town for that week and we were in Arlington National Cemetary when that f*cking plane flew over. Goddamn was it loud and was it fast. Complete havoc insued after the plane crashed. I remember the feeling I felt as I looked across Washington Blvd looking at this building engulfed in flames. My knees buckled. I remember people rubbing the jet fuel off the hoods of their cars as they sat in dead stop traffic completely in a daze at what the f*ck they just saw.

Not sure why they took down the cameras, but have you seen the recent additions to the cameras on and around the Pentagon? Security was huge for a long time there, but now they only have a dozen or so guys with M16's standing out front. Security has definately beefed up in the past week though.

I remember one of my neighbors who's a firefighter describing how hideous it was cleaning up that wreck. I remember him telling me how he saw one of those "Airplane Safety Tips" handbooks floating in the water (this sector of the pengaton was flooded) and he picked it up to find a charred dismembered hand under it. Ugh. He was a wreck for monthes after that whole cleanup. Bodies and just debris everywhere.

Edit: Also, i'm willing to provide any details about the incident that you would like, including times, what I saw, etc. I think I might have a picture of one the street lamps that was knocked over as the plane flew over. I can probably find a picture of that taxi driver who got his cab wrecked by the landing gear (atlteast I think that's what hit it). I don't know why you think there's some huge conspiracy behind this, but it's actually very clear what happened. There's little to be misinterpreted, as I and thousands of others saw the thing fly overhead.

In other news, the "Elite" Pentagon "Research" Team mangaed to interview the cabbie whose car was hit by one of the lamppoles. They dimissed him because he was quite old, frail, and a bit senile and Lloyd's wife said she retired as a clerk for the FBI. Needless to say this guy isnt a no-planer.

[Orphia Nay]

Why can't you buy raw apricot seeds in this country?

You can if you order online... knock yourself out (http://www.puttingitright.com.au/ckshop.php?item=2558&ret=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.puttingitright.com.au%2Fcksho p.php%3Fpage%3D1%26keyword%3Dorganic%2Bapricot%2Bk ernels).
:rolleyes:

Did you happen to notice the location of the source you provided in your link?
"If you are looking for the best supply of Vitamin B17 available in Australia, then this is it."
...
I just wanted to come back and thank you two for helping me prove my point.

Hello? You can buy apricot seeds in the US, from that site I posted quickly (after seeing your post and having just seen the link in a new-age magazine in the health food shop I'd just had lunch in). You can buy them online from other countries, or packaged in apricot flesh fresh from your fruit shop or supermarket, and a quick google just found this place (http://home.bluegrass.net/~jclark/order_bymail.htm) in the USA, amongst others (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=purchase+zip&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=apricot+seeds&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images) .
Oh, and one more thing.
...
I read these post last night... I'm debating with myself on if I should read anymore of your exellent replies, or just ignore most of you to prevent myself from insulting you right back.

It must be more insulting to know you are wrong.

Please tell us what similarities you see between MarkyX's pic of a controlled demolition and the twin towers & WTC7, besides them all being buildings falling down.

[MortFurd]

And in your effort to prove me wrong you point out that at the very least there are two different products that can be purchased from every grocery store in this country that contain more cyanide than B-17.

Dude, the cyanide is a breakdown product of B-17. The fact that things are available with higher levels of cyanide (from B-17) kind of demolishes your claim that there's no way to get apricot pits in the US.

As another poster mentioned, if you want apricot pits, just go buy some fresh apricots.

That they aren't available in a packages proves nothing. A reasonable explanation would just be that not enough folks want them to make it worthwhile for anyone to package and sell.

ETA:
I notice you also ignore the cyanide poisoning attributed to Laetrile/B17/Amygdalin.

[Alareth]

Ok, I've been over at the SLC blog and reading the comments ...

Is nesnyc really that detached from reality?

Al Qaeda doesn't exist?
Al Jazeera is controlled by the CIA?
Jews control the porn industy?

Is he always like that?

He's making the crowd over at LC sound almost rational....

[Alareth]

Gawd, Dylan is going to get his arse handed to him. This is going to be a trainwreck for him. Amy Goodman did a good job trying to keep David Ray Griffin honest during the debate with Chip Berlet. I think she'll do the same with Dylan.

Do you think this punk kid actually believes he will 'win' the debate? My money is that he knows he'll get his teeth knocked in and only wants to use the deabte for publicity. CTs consider spouting the same tired rhetoric to be 'winning' even if the other side debunks the points as the CT is self-evidently troof.

Dylan is getting coaching:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12570

[gumboot]

Guess what: table salt = sodium/chlorine :eek: !!!

These are highly toxic elements, and yet sodium compounds such as NaCl are not, and in fact are essential to our health and survival.


Or, for example... O^2 is essential for life, yet O^3 is highly poisonous to humans. And that's just adding another atom!

-Andrew

[kookbreaker]

Ok, I've been over at the SLC blog and reading the comments ...

Is nesnyc really that detached from reality?

Al Qaeda doesn't exist?
Al Jazeera is controlled by the CIA?
Jews control the porn industy?

Is he always like that?

He's making the crowd over at LC sound almost rational....

Except that nesync is at LC.

He really is one of the worst. Its hard to reason with someone who doesn't realise that being called a Nazi is an insult.

[MortFurd]

And you have posted quotes from firemen and their chief's which claim that they were afraid that the building was going to "fall down" .

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema/fig-5-19.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2987&d=1157629710


I'm afraid you don't understand. Do you see how the word "afraid" can be used so as not to mean "quaking in fear and panic?" I listened live to the firemen in the towers on 911. I heard them going about their tasks without panic. They were quite rightly concerned that the towers might collapse. They may have each personally feared for their lives. There was no panic.

Superheroes. (http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010914)

[kookbreaker]

No, smoke engulfed most of the building.


And the smoke is caused by what? Evil boy scouts with stink bombs?


And like I stated previously, it's awfully suspicious that the FDNY was prepared for tower 7 to "fall down" seven hours before it finally plunged to the ground.


The seven hours figure is not correct. Firemen can be seen working around the building after the debris cloud from the towers had cleared. by then the fire had been burning for some time.

You desperately want to believe this, don't you?


You follow the words of your leader, and I'll follow the words of mine.


I'm not following a leader, I follow what evidence and relevant experts tell us about the collapse. Not what some desperate, politcally motivated fool invents to confirm to his agenda.

[gumboot]

Isn't an HDTV signal something like 6 Mbits/second? 79 Mbytes in 11 seconds is 57 Mbits/second!

Bitrate and memory usage can be quite different. My 10 minute short film, 720x576 avi (video only) is 2.39GB.

DVD-video (MPEG-2), at either 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL) runs at 9.8 Mbit/s.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

When I turn in a production to Discovery or History Channel, we turn in a "production book" Usually a 3 ring binder containing: signed releases from the subjects on camera (not necessary for news)


That would be for originating work though wouldn't it?

Isn't it a bit different when a broadcaster is just purchasing a program?

-Andrew

[Belz...]

Did you happen to notice the location of the source you provided in your link?
"If you are looking for the best supply of Vitamin B17 available in Australia, then this is it."

If it passes customs then you CAN get it in the US. What are you complaining about ? Now you'll NEVER get cancer, sub.

I just wanted to come back and thank you two for helping me prove my point.

:covereyes

I'm debating with myself

Why am I not surprised ?

[Belz...]

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2987&d=1157629710

This isn't a "huge" fire compared to the size of the structure,

You're kidding me, right ? The smoke covers the side of the building from top to bottom and you say it isn't huge ? It's a 50-storey building!

Look at the other building right next to it, there is structural damage to that building as well, but for some reason there wasn't a single fire caused by the collapse of the twin towers.
hmmmm.

Typical CT mentality: even if everything else is NOT equal, two relatively similar events should always look precisely the same.

http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/7/8/6/1/9961687-9961690-slarge.jpg

You follow the words of your leader, and I'll follow the words of mine.

Leader ? This isn't a world championship, sub. It's about what's true and what isn't. Appeal to authority, by the way.

[gumboot]

Do you have an image of a 757 on approach to the pentagon before it crashed ? Didn't that plane make a U-turn and show up on three or four other closed circuit cameras that were swiftly collected by the "men in black"

No.



Why can't you buy raw apricot seeds in this country?

I honestly can't see how this would be an issue. Every apricot has a seed in it. Just go buy a heap of apricots. They're good for you too.



Other than Posilac, the herbicides pesticides and fertilizer monopoly that exist in this country effects us all on a worldwide scale. There are 4 or 5 "Gene Giants" in the world and they have all chosen to "treat" the population of the world with the same recipe. There are a few countries that do not permit (GE) food or seeds.


Wow... someone doesn't know what they're talking about...

(P.S. I live in one of those countries that strictly controls GE)



The convience store, the DMV, and the hotel next door.

And these places have set up security cameras looking at The Pentagon because...?



Your right, I was wrong for saying that... but hey this little war ain't over with yet and there is no talk around the coffee pot concerning an "exit strategy".


If the occupation of Iraq went on for another 50 years it would still be smallfry in the annals of human history.




Where is it? Why was all of the evidence that would PROVE that 19 muslims "attacked" this country destroyed or made unavailable to the American public. Of the few images that do exist, some of them are very misleading because they don't belong to the plane that supposedly crashed at the scene, or show a plume of smoke that flight 93 supposedly "vaporized" in.. including all of the passengers teeth.


I'm sorry, but if you're going to be this dense, I'm afraid we can't help you. The internet is overflowing with this stuff. For starters, in an unprecedented move, all evidence from the Moussaoui trial was publicly released.




And there hasn't been one fanatical terrorist to be found in this country since then eventho' the American war machine is in their home land destroying and taking the lives of a few hundred thousand innocent women and children.


Well, aside from the gross exaggeration of your statistic there, your answer is right there - they aren't in the US because it is a solemn duty for them to protect their own land first. The US military is a better target, so they hit that, and leave American civilians alone. Hence the current admin's tactic is working perfectly.




See above links. or google "B-17" and try to pretend that the FDA is not controlled by ANGELS and it is quite possible that they LIE to U.S.... sometimes.


By the way, Amygdalin (or B17 as you prefer to call it) is more commonly extracted from Almonds. Are they also illegal in the US?

-Andrew

[gumboot]

"Organic" dosen't mean non-toxic anyway. Think deadly nightshade, jimson weed, opium poppies. All natural and all poisonous.


One of the curious things I learned in my brief time in the horticulture industry, most organic sprays and what have you are actually MORE dangerous, because they tend to be very general, whereas synthetic and modified sprays can be designed to target a specific thing and not hurt anything else.

Example? All organic slug/snail bait is dangerous to pets (dogs, cats, etc) whereas modified/synthetic/GE slug/snail bait is usually perfectly safe for pets (some of them you could actually eat yourself. You'll get sick, but you ain't gonna die. I strongly discourage such activities though!)

-Andrew

[mrfreeze]

Well it seems the deniers now have proof that Howard Stern of all people is in on the big jew conspiracy! It seems that 2 days ago while discussing the rescue crews getting sick after helping clean up ground zero, his newswoman accidently said a bomb hit the WTC, then corrected herself.

The Joooooos did do it!

http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/011110A/http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12665

[gumboot]

As to the bolded line, it is Bullsh**. Money talks and BS walks.


*sigh*

Please read what I write. If you can find me one photo of an American serviceman (in service at the time) wearing a blue UN helmet surrounded by a white American military vehicle with "UN" painted on it, I'll agree with you.

Until then I maintain my assertion that the US does not provide its personnel directly to UN command operations.

All of the examples you presented involved UNSC-approved international coalition operations. They were NOT UN command operations.

If we take Somalia, for example, it began with UNOSOM I, which was a UN operation and did not involve US troops. Because this failed utterly, it was replaced with UNITAF (an international coalition) led by the US. This was in turn followed up by UNOSOM II, again without the US. Of course this didn't work well either, so the US deployed Task Force Ranger, unilaterally. Cue the Battle of Mogadishu.

-Andrew

[chipmunk stew]

You follow the words of your leader, and I'll follow the words of mine.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but...who might that be?

[MortFurd]

I hope this ends the Laetriel/B17/Amygdalin sidetrack:
Info about the ineffectiveness of Laetrile. (http://www.meb.uni-bonn.de/cancer.gov/CDR0000062976.html)
Note it specifically lists Lima beans as a source of Laetrile, and that the site I gave before puts the Laetrile content of Lima beans on par with that of apricot pits.

Submersible, it looks like you can "protect" yourself from cancer just by eating lima beans. I know you can get those in just about any store. You can also get them dried or fresh, in case you are afraid the canned ones may have had all their B17 goodness cooked out of them. Failing that, you might want to look into getting some fresh cassava, from which tapioca pudding is made. The bitter varieties have up to 20 times more Laetrile in them.

So much for a conspiracy to prevent access to B17.

[negativ]

BYU places Steven Jones on paid leave... (http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html)

[MarkyX]

You follow the words of your leader, and I'll follow the words of mine.


You mean him?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/harper_stephen/gfx/harper_cp_9376962.jpg

[jhunter1163]

From the LC Forum, posted by Badmachine:

One can read this several ways:

PM by accepting a debate with Dylan Avery is in a backhanded way possibly trying to imply that the best the Truth movement has to offer is a 20 something filmaker. (Absolutely no offense implied - I'm just a 30 something guy with a Mickey Mouse 9/11 web site - Dylan may actually eat him for lunch and I hope so)

But PM doesn't seem to want at all to cross brains with Prof. Steven Jones, Dr. David Ray Griffin or Dr. Jim Fetzer or even acknowledge the movements legitimacy by debating people with highly regarded credentials.

Once again, NO offense implied.

As I was trying to say, when was the last time the establishment gave a hoot about the opinions of any regular citizen?

This in my view is a backhanded attempt to marginalize the movement in a subtle way.

But I hope PM gets their head handed to them

Methinks I hear the sounds of an alibi being set up...

[MortFurd]

Jhunter1163:
I think a set of quote tags would have been very helpful. I had to re-read your post three times before it sank in that none of the post was from you.



One can read this several ways:

PM by accepting a debate with Dylan Avery is in a backhanded way possibly trying to imply that the best the Truth movement has to offer is a 20 something filmaker. (Absolutely no offense implied - I'm just a 30 something guy with a Mickey Mouse 9/11 web site - Dylan may actually eat him for lunch and I hope so)

But PM doesn't seem to want at all to cross brains with Prof. Steven Jones, Dr. David Ray Griffin or Dr. Jim Fetzer or even acknowledge the movements legitimacy by debating people with highly regarded credentials.

Once again, NO offense implied.

As I was trying to say, when was the last time the establishment gave a hoot about the opinions of any regular citizen?

This in my view is a backhanded attempt to marginalize the movement in a subtle way.

But I hope PM gets their head handed to them

Methinks I hear the sounds of an alibi being set up...

[pgwenthold]

Gawd, Dylan is going to get his arse handed to him.

I disagree. Dylan is going to come off not looking as bad as he could because all he is going to do is to throw a whole list of "questions" out, and won't debate anything. In the end, he will just say that the other guy didn't actually address the issues he brought up.

I hope I'm wrong, but, as I've said before, these vaguely defined "debates" are a bad idea. See the example of Fetzer in Slingblade's thread about LC coming to her school. When he got a question about whether there were real passengers on the planes, he went through a list of about 10 other topics and never actually answered the question.

If you want to have "debates" on this, you have to narrow the topic and keep it on focus. Pick a Loosers claim such as "WTC 7 fell by controlled demolition" and discuss that. Then stupid crap like "the hijackers weren't on the passenger lists" can be dismissed as irrelevant to the topic at hand.

However, the general topic that 9/11 was a conspiracy is far too broad and a debate is going to be unproductive.

As has been pointed out, it's like debating creationists. They can start ripping out claims, and only hope that you don't have time to address them all. Then they can claim that you haven't addressed all their "questions" and declare victory.

I think it's a bad idea to go there.

[jhunter1163]

Sorry, Mort. I'm not registered over there and for some reason I have trouble using the Quote function when trying to lift stuff from LC. I realized it was unclear when I posted it. Anyone want to give me a quick tutorial in using quote tags when pulling stuff off LC?

[MortFurd]

Just copy and paste into your post here, then select the text in the editor and hit the "Quote" button. It looks like a word balloon from the cartoons. Edit the first quote tag like this to put the LCer's name in [QUOTE=Goober from the LC forum]

[Belz...]

By the way, Amygdalin (or B17 as you prefer to call it) is more commonly extracted from Almonds. Are they also illegal in the US?

Ouch.

[Brainster]

Kudos to James B for a great article (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/284271_anticonspire08.html):

As the anniversary of these tragic events approaches, many will remember the victims, and many a tear will be shed for them. But a significant group of people wants to hijack their memories and falsify their history for their own motivations. It is the responsibility of this nation, its people and its media to insist that the truth be told, and their memories not be sullied.

[WildCat]

Sorry, Mort. I'm not registered over there and for some reason I have trouble using the Quote function when trying to lift stuff from LC. I realized it was unclear when I posted it. Anyone want to give me a quick tutorial in using quote tags when pulling stuff off LC?
It's really simple. Just copy and paste your quote, then put [quote] in front of it. After the quote, put /quote (but inside brackets again, I didn't put it here because then it would have put all that in a quote box).

I'm old enough that I used a typewriter to write college papers, you should be able to figure it out.

[chipmunk stew]

It's really simple. Just copy and paste your quote, then put [quote] in front of it. After the quote, put /quote (but inside brackets again, I didn't put it here because then it would have put all that in a quote box).
You can also figure out how all the BB formatting tags work by toggling the Editor Mode back and forth. The button is on the upper right and looks sort of like this: A/A

[Graham2001]

The following description of 'Loose Change 2' appeared in the TV section of "The West Australian" (http://www.thewest.com.au/) newspaper under the byline of 'Pam Brown'. :

The second documentary, Loose Change 2, will be shown on the History Channel on Monday at 9:30pm. It is an update made this year of a documentary by Dylan Avery that swept around the internet last year, becoming an instant favourite with conspiracy theorists.

It uses forensic examination of the witness testimony, on-the-spot reporting and scientific evidence to tell the story but the conclusions reached by Avery are very different.
(Another program 'Fallout: The Health Impact of 9/11 is also described.)

Among his claims are that it was a missile, not a plane, that hit the Pentagon and that the impacts of the planes and fires were not enough to cause the towers to collapse.

It's quite clear that 'Pam Brown' or whoever actually wrote the piece has not seen 'Loose Change'.

I'd like to suggest that it might not be a bad idea to send 'letters (emails) to the editor' about this. I'm drafting one at the moment which I'll post to the forum for comment.

[Brainster]

It's really simple. Just copy and paste your quote, then put [quote] in front of it. After the quote, put slashquote (but inside brackets again, I didn't put it here because then it would have put all that in a quote box).

I'm old enough that I used a typewriter to write college papers, you should be able to figure it out.

You can also just paste your quote, highlight all the quoted text, then hit that little quote thingy on the toolbar at the top.

[DavidJames]

In the LC Flight Path Analysis thread, driver (does he post here) embarrased JDX with this gem: Merc, maybe I was wrong in assuming the guy running Pilots for Truth would have access to an airplane. I thought he would clear this all up when he set 30.22 in an actual altimeter and abandon his average conversion value. His reward was getting banned by JDX.

The truth wins out :rolleyes:

[negativ]

Am I overreacting when I feel genuinely bothered by this little gem (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11800) at LC?

Maybe it's rash, but I don't think we're just going to get the truth about 9/11 by asking politely
It's damn stupid to sit back and wait, sorry, but it's the truth. All of this happened so quickly, now we're just stuck, tredding water, waiting for something to happen. And meanwhile we're the ones who should be making the happenings.
is there a place we can talk about this without being watched?

i'm seriously asking. like, where can we talk about this? i have ideas. but agreeing to do something that could be considered treasonous can be defined as conspiracy to commit (which violates the constitution, of course - which defines treason as an "overt action", but thats beside the point).

there is a portion of this movement that needs to be underground. pls invite me if there already is or pls lets discuss if not.
If it's gonna happen, and I'm dubbed a terrorist, then I hope someone else has the same mind set as mine and they're more careful in the planning process.
I think it's up to us to take the power away from the same old ********ters who sit in the whitehouse all day, even if violence is the only solution.
Like firsty said man, time to get the ball rolling. Truth be told revolution doesn't mean gunshots to me. But if that's what it takes so the future generations of this government of the people to have it better off, I'm all for it.

Hmm.

[chipmunk stew]

Am I overreacting when I feel genuinely bothered by this little gem (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11800) at LC?

Hmm.
:eye-poppi Overreacting? No way. If they're talking like this on a public message board, imagine the ideas that get floated when they gather in private.

The FBI might be interested in this.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

:eye-poppi Overreacting? No way. If they're talking like this on a public message board, imagine the ideas that get floated when they gather in private.

The FBI might be interested in this.

Indeed. Make their little paranoid delusional fantasies about being watched by "The Man" come true.

[jon]

Hell, with their knowledge of explosives etc. the truthers might already have tried to start the violent campaign without anyone noticing. I can just see them looking at a skyscraper wired for CD - in the same way they think WTC7 was - scratching their heads, and wondering why nothing's coming down :D

Oh, and just noticed they think Emma Goldman was a marxist :rolleyes:

[realitybites]

:eye-poppi Overreacting? No way. If they're talking like this on a public message board, imagine the ideas that get floated when they gather in private.

The FBI might be interested in this.
Might want to screenshot those for posterity's sake as well. I know DylanCo. has been preaching a peaceful assembly on Monday. It is kinda disturbing to see them bring up violence and "gunshots" as a way to get the ball rolling.

[Gravy]

In Abby's video, when Mark is talking to the Looser about thermite, in the background is the "Millenium Hilton." What's up with that spelling? The only place I've seen "Millenium" spelled with one "N" is at the Ratbags website, where the owner refers to his work as The Millenium Project:

The site skewers stuff like Intelligent Design, homeopathy, chirpractic, etc. In other words, one like us. Is that his hotel?
[Tour Guide Mode] They wanted to be different from all the other "Millennium" business that were opening just prior to 2000. As an English major, it bugs the hell out of me. Some day I'm going to mount a late-night commando raid and install the missing N. [/Tour Guide Mode]

[Jennie C.]

Kudos to James B for a great article (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/284271_anticonspire08.html):


As the anniversary of these tragic events approaches, many will remember the victims, and many a tear will be shed for them. But a significant group of people wants to hijack their memories and falsify their history for their own motivations. It is the responsibility of this nation, its people and its media to insist that the truth be told, and their memories not be sullied.


Right on. These CT'ers don't give a (rule 8) darn about the victims of this horrific terrorist act. They're just fodder for their demented dreams of the United-States-is-bad.

Bunch of 60's leftovers, no matter what their age.

edited to fix the quote box

[juryjone]

Kudos to James B for a great article (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/284271_anticonspire08.html):

I don't get a lot of opportunity to post here (or anywhere for that matter), and by the time I read an especially objectionable post it has usually been torn to shreds by the crack JREF Ninja team. But I do want to thank the following people for kicking a** on this thread and this subforum in general:

Gravy
MarkyX
JamesB
Brainster
Kent1
Chipmunk stew
Abby (Great video!)
Pardalis
Belz
Wildcat
Arkan_Wolfshade
Huntsman
delphi_ote
gumboot
Zach

Heck, it might be shorter to list the people who come in with no facts, post and run. Because I want to post the name of everyone who has contributed in any way. I'm proud to be associated, even in a small way, with you people.

And I would also like to join MortFurd in a smackdown of Submersible, who seems to think that the FDNY went about their business that day in a heroic manner because they didn't think WTC7 was coming down. I wish Submersible would explain his viewpoint in person to the surviving members of the FDNY. I don't think laetrile will be of much concern to him after that.

[stateofgrace]

Am I overreacting when I feel genuinely bothered by this little gem (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11800) at LC?

Hmm.

No I don't think you are over reacting and I have read this thread with genuine unease.

The "elders" try to give out this air of grace and fatherly knowledge also. It's almost borders on internet glooming IMO.

This entire section is deeply disturbing.

[Gravy]

Maybe your right
You miss the point. (BTW, it's "you're" when you mean "you are"). It's not me who's right. I wasn't there. I presented the reports of the experts who were on the scene, which completely contradict your unsupported claim that there weren't huge fires in WTC 7. I want to know why your reply is "maybe," and not, "Oh, I didn't know that. I guess I should do my homework next time."

but this is what turned me on to the whole 9/11 disaster after I had somewhat put it all past me:
http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_lostvoicesfiredept.html
I have no idea what your point is here. Chief Palmer died. That sucks. And?

The Port Authority tapes prove the "official report" that explains the outrageous number of firefighter deaths, that was signed by him and the mayor, was a straight up lie.
Maybe my mind got caught up in the conspiracy again because...
well because the FDNY Commissioner and the mayor of NYC was LYING about the reason so many firemen died that day.
Ah. Okay. Well, the Orio Palmer example was a bad one. He was on the 78th floor of the south tower seven minutes before it collapsed. He wasn't going to make it out no matter what communications systems they had.

And you have posted quotes from firemen and their chief's which claim that they were afraid that the building was going to "fall down" .Yes. WTC 7. If you have a problem with their statements, come out and say it.

This isn't a "huge" fire compared to the size of the structure,What's your basis for that statement?

since you've made it obvious that you cannot see through the smoke screen... at least you posted an image that proves that there was NO fire showing on that side of the building prior to collapse.
I made no such thing obvious. Do you think you know, based on some photos, more than the people on the scene? Are those couple of photos the be-all and end-all of our knowledge about WTC 7, or should we consult the professionals who were there? The determination of the size and extent of the fires is based on the expert reports, not on the two photos you posted. The photos, and videos, http://tinyurl.com/f3tvd http://tinyurl.com/zg4un show a huge volume of smoke coming from many floors. If you want to argue that the volume of smoke is produced by small fires, go ahead, but support your argument with facts. Actually, forget that for now. I'd like to know – based only on the photos and videos – not including the eyewitness reports – why you think there weren't huge fires in WTC 7.

Look at the other building right next to it, there is structural damage to that building as well, but for some reason there wasn't a single fire caused by the collapse of the twin towers.
hmmmm.
Quite a foolish statement. WFC 3 is nowhere near WTC 7, nor did it sustain deep structural damage. When are you going to stop making these uneducated pronouncements? It doesn't take a lot of time to look up a few facts. Or, you know, you could just ask. We're an excellent resource, for those who care about learning.

You follow the words of your leader, and I'll follow the words of mine.Take me to your leader. I'd like to have a word or two.

[Gravy]

I'm afraid you don't understand. Do you see how the word "afraid" can be used so as not to mean "quaking in fear and panic?" I listened live to the firemen in the towers on 911. I heard them going about their tasks without panic. They were quite rightly concerned that the towers might collapse. They may have each personally feared for their lives. There was no panic.

Superheroes. (http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010914)
Thanks for picking up on that, Mortfurd. I missed what he was implying.

So, Submersible, please point out to me one fireman's quote that I've posted that shows a lack of courage on their part. Do it or shut up.

Goddamn, this crap sickens me.

[LashL]

BYU places Steven Jones on paid leave... (http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html)

Sounds ominous for Jones. Perhaps BYU has had enough of having the institution associated with the troofers.

[apathoid]

This guy isn't gonna last long at LC.



Edit: Also, i'm willing to provide any details about the incident that you would like, including times, what I saw, etc. I think I might have a picture of one the street lamps that was knocked over as the plane flew over. I can probably find a picture of that taxi driver who got his cab wrecked by the landing gear (atlteast I think that's what hit it). I don't know why you think there's some huge conspiracy behind this, but it's actually very clear what happened. There's little to be misinterpreted, as I and thousands of others saw the thing fly overhead.



A little follow up here. Looks like I was right, his post was deleted and I cant find any other posts from him, so he's probably banned as well. The Troooof is like sunshine over at LC.

Geiz is lying and his account will be deleted from this thread.

[realitybites]

Geiz is lying and his account will be deleted from this thread.

So that's it then. The truth no longer has room for any evidence that backs up the OS in any way shape or form. Any person who saw the plane fly over head is just a flat-out liar.

Being so certain as to what constitutes truth vs. lies, it sounds to me like they're wrapping up their research over there. I can't wait for their final report of what REALLY happened.

[kookbreaker]

Sounds ominous for Jones. Perhaps BYU has had enough of having the institution associated with the troofers.

His 'paper' at the byu location just gave me a 401 error. It might have just been a fault.

[Darth Rotor]

*sigh*

Please read what I write. -Andrew
Did you read the first link?

Reality: 29 American military men and women are currently serving in UN peacekeeping operations. Americans therefore represent less than 1% of the approximate total of 60,419 soldiers serving in UN peacekeeping operations.

Now, it seems to be all well and good for the US to underwrite the largest single contribution to the UN, and to the UN peacekeeping budget, but you somehow feel that no credit is due for the multi billion dollar efforts, time, and manpower done for and on behalf of UN operations, UN sanctions, and UN humanitarian operations, for the excuse that the sovereign government of the US, in this case the Congress, no longer trusts the other members of the UN, and the UNSC, to exercise rational and coherent Command and Control. A Canadian named McKenzie has some rather acid observations on dual key stupidity.

You are free to try and play a bookkeepers game here, and wilfully ignore contributions to UN and humanitarian efforts that reach into the billions, but you'll calmly assert that the US doesn't do UN stuff.

Do you wonder why some Americans get steamed at this myopic view of what constitutes support for the UN?

DR

[apathoid]

His 'paper' at the byu location just gave me a 401 error. It might have just been a fault.

He was told to remove it.

"Jones removed the paper from BYU's Web site Thursday at the university's request."

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html

[WildCat]

Is the LC site not loading or loading very slowly for anyone besides me? I wouldn't shed a tear if there is a DoS attack on it.

[Brainster]

I will be on The World Tonight with Rob Breakenridge of AM 770, CHQR Monday night, September 11, at 10:00 PM Eastern Time. For those of you not fortunate enough to live in Calgary, you can listen in live here (http://www.am770chqr.com/). We will be taking callers. The call-in numbers are 1-800-563-7770, or 403-974-8255. Rob is hoping to fit in a whole hour on the topic of 9-11 Denial, but obviously it depends on the level of listener interest and breaking news that day.

I'll post a reminder on Monday.

[Class]

In the "You can't get any stupider than this" department, we have a little gem from Daniels in the Youth for 9/11 truth forum on LC. You all know about those lightpoles that were knocked over at the Pentagon? Well since a cruise missile doesn't have the wingspan to knock down all the lightpoles, Daniels proposes a theory that is sure to rock your world, rock you to your foundation, and put a shock to your system all at the same time.

Keep sowing those seeds dude, shadow1768.

And yeah, MichaelMR, the lightpoles may have been dropped from the C130 that people DID see in the area at the time.

[edit: highlight the sentence where the shadowy shadow1768 tries to sow the seeds of doubt]
Bolding mine.
http://www.unipeak.net/gethtml.php?_u_r_l_=aHR0cDovL3MxNS5pbnZpc2lvbmZyZW UuY29tL0xvb3NlX0NoYW5nZV9Gb3J1bS9pbmRleC5waHA/c2hvd3RvcGljPTExMzI3

Wha-wha-what?:eye-poppi

[Brainache]

Daniels is Australian. Fair dinkum. He should have a bit more nous. Bloody wanker.

[T.A.M.]

I keep telling everyone it was the Leprachauns...

It only takes about 6 of them around the base of each lightpole to pop it up out of its casing and then "Timber"...why use a C-130 when you've got the little green guys...

TAM

[Obviousman]

Daniels is Australian. Fair dinkum. He should have a bit more nous. Bloody wanker.

He's a nong, alright.

[Graham2001]

Am I overreacting when I feel genuinely bothered by this little gem (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11800) at LC?

Hmm.

No, I don't think that you are.

I find that sort of talk to be profoundly disturbing for any number of reasons not least that these people could end up giving active help to AQ or a similar group.

If you think I 'm overreacting read this article (http://www.adl.org/mwd/mountain.asp) at the 'Militia Watchdog Archive'.

[Brainache]

He's a nong, alright.

Also a Galah and a Drongo.

[Brainster]

I posted on this article (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2006-09-07/news/Bird.html?src=news_rss) in the editorials section. It mostly concerns the Arizona Chapter of 9-11 Denial, but the writer (who also did a terrific takedown of LC back in April) gives Dylan a fat lip on the second page:

Perhaps Loose Change's pinheaded producers would care to run their fingers through the gore — that is, exhume what little's left of the corpses?

[gumboot]

Now, it seems to be all well and good for the US to underwrite the largest single contribution to the UN, and to the UN peacekeeping budget, but you somehow feel that no credit is due for the multi billion dollar efforts, time, and manpower done for and on behalf of UN operations, UN sanctions, and UN humanitarian operations, for the excuse that the sovereign government of the US, in this case the Congress, no longer trusts the other members of the UN, and the UNSC, to exercise rational and coherent Command and Control. A Canadian named McKenzie has some rather acid observations on dual key stupidity.

You are free to try and play a bookkeepers game here, and wilfully ignore contributions to UN and humanitarian efforts that reach into the billions, but you'll calmly assert that the US doesn't do UN stuff.

Do you wonder why some Americans get steamed at this myopic view of what constitutes support for the UN?


I think there has been a misunderstanding here.

We were discussing the UN army's invasion of the world. Someone made the suggestion that the US provides the majority of the UN's troops. I simply corrected that incorrect observation.

I agree with you 100%. The US support of the UN grossly exceeds it's fair share of the burden. I also believe the US is correct to reject the laughable excuse for a cluster-**** that the UN calls its "command and control". When Israel were shelling Lebanon and the UN left its unarmed UNMOBs as sitting ducks in the line of fire (one of them was a kiwi) I wished that NZ would ALSO refuse to provide forces to UN missions.

My opinion of UN peace-keeping/enforcement efforts post Korea are nothing short of disgust. The UN sits in the same position as the League of Nations. The only thing missing to produce a catastrophe like WW2 is another Hitler. And the Usual Suspects abound at the moment.

In another thread I talked of Lebanon being the UN's chance to save face after their laughable efforts of the last decade and a half. But as we have seen, there efforts there have simply followed the trend. The UN has failed in its primary mission, plain and simple. I offer my most sincere gratitude to the US for continuing to carry the torch, despite fierce criticism (and regardless of the actual motivation).

Anyway, we're off topic...:o I think we can agree the UN isn't going to be invading the world any time soon - while the US may only provide 29 if its thousands of troops, the US is the muscle that the UN unleashes whenever it wants to do anything useful. (Or perhaps it is more accurate to say the UN doesn't object when the US decides it's time to do something useful, UN or not)

-Andrew

[gumboot]

So, Submersible, please point out to me one fireman's quote that I've posted that shows a lack of courage on their part. Do it or shut up.


Indeed some would argue that while Bravery involved acting without fear (usually due to ignorance or stupidity) Courage (a much greater trait) actually required the existence of fear, for 'tis acting in spite of fear. Some would argue that acting courageously automatically indicated fear.

-Andrew

[LashL]

I will be on The World Tonight with Rob Breakenridge of AM 770, CHQR Monday night, September 11, at 10:00 PM Eastern Time. For those of you not fortunate enough to live in Calgary, you can listen in live here (http://www.am770chqr.com/). We will be taking callers. The call-in numbers are 1-800-563-7770, or 403-974-8255. Rob is hoping to fit in a whole hour on the topic of 9-11 Denial, but obviously it depends on the level of listener interest and breaking news that day.

I'll post a reminder on Monday.

Excellent. Please do post the reminder and I will call in ~ hmmmmmm, what to ask? what to ask? :D

[tsig]

Dylan is getting coaching:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12570

Nah, thats called sucking on his " King Kong balls"

[Brainster]

Kudos to JREFer Markyx (http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000931.html)! In the notes to today's cartoon, they say:

And lastly, five years later there's no shortage of conspiracy theories about 9/11, one even from a Florida Democratic candidate. It shouldn't even be necessary, but some people are vigilantly debunking of the deniers:

Screw Loose Change by Mark Iradian is an excellent site dedicated to debunking a video known as "Loose Change" that propagates leftist 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Incidentally, the link goes to Markyx's site (http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/), so it's not one of those cases where people get the blog and the movie mixed up.

The only thing that would make it better is if he'd gotten mentioned in the cartoon itself. Still, it's a classic, made even better when you know the story behind the cartoon, (in the text).

[MarkyX]

Kudos to JREFer Markyx (http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000931.html)! In the notes to today's cartoon, they say:



Incidentally, the link goes to Markyx's site (http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/), so it's not one of those cases where people get the blog and the movie mixed up.

The only thing that would make it better is if he'd gotten mentioned in the cartoon itself. Still, it's a classic, made even better when you know the story behind the cartoon, (in the text).

Yeah he sent me an email yesterday about it :)

Uh..surprise?

[Gravy]

http://www.unipeak.net/gethtml.php?_u_r_l_=aHR0cDovL3MxNS5pbnZpc2lvbmZyZW UuY29tL0xvb3NlX0NoYW5nZV9Gb3J1bS9pbmRleC5waHA/c2hvd3RvcGljPTExMzI3

Wha-wha-what?:eye-poppi
Well, they do call the AC-130U (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm) gunship "Spooky." I didn't know it was that spooky, though.

Daniels is the creepy dude who sent me some Ka-ray-zee emails about how the apocalypse was coming and I was going to be toast without jam.

[Brainster]

Well, they do call the AC-130U (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm) gunship "Spooky." I didn't know it was that spooky, though.

Daniels is the creepy dude who sent me some Ka-ray-zee emails about how the apocalypse was coming and I was going to be toast without jam.

When the revolution comes, we're going to be the first bastards lined up against the wall and shot, right there with the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.

[Brainster]

Color me stunned. According to this new blog (http://www.debunk911myths.org/?p=12), Implosion World has corrected their recent article as follows:

Steven E. Jones does not have a doctorate degree, so Implosion World changed the text to refer to him as “Professor Jones”

Scholars for 9-11 Truth appears to have made the change already:

Steven Jones (FM)

Professor of Physics, Brigham Young University, co-chair of Scholars for 9/11 Truth and the creator of its home page and its forum

Oddly, however, Jones continues to be referred to as "Dr Jones" in BYU press releases to the Deseret Morning News (http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199800,00.html):

"BYU has repeatedly said that it does not endorse assertions made by individual faculty," the statement said. "We are, however, concerned about the increasingly speculative and accusatory nature of these statements by Dr. Jones.":eek:

[Class]

Maybe it's something like Dr. Dre?

[Dog Town]

Steven Jones Doesn't Have a PHD?

Thread worthy!

Scholars still show this.
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
by Steven E. Jones, Ph.D.

[Brainster]

Thread worthy!

Scholars still show this.

I've put up a new thread. Screen Cap and links, please!

[Submersible]

Ah. Okay. Well, the Orio Palmer example was a bad one. He was on the 78th floor of the south tower seven minutes before it collapsed. He wasn't going to make it out no matter what communications systems they had.



What about the massive amount of firemen in tower 1 that supposedly didn't hear the calls to evacuate because the repeater wasn't working?

When the case was closed, signed sealed and delivered by the mayor and the FDNY commissioner, their deaths were blamed on a repeater that failed, and it didn't.
And neither one of them had any additional comments to make on the subject after the Port Authority tapes were released? Nor was the investigation into their murder re-opened.
I guess it's better off to leave the blame on somebody else like OBL so "we the people" can continue to fund the war against the most RELIGIOUS sector of the Muslim world.

I'm sure these are bad examples too:

http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2006/09/05/hscout534771.html
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-25-2006-106608.asp
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5335a1.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/06/nyregion/06health.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2006-06-25-911-health-usat_x.htm

But I'm sure most of you will say that the USG, EPA, and city of New York hasn't turned their backs on the dying and suffering rescue workers either, right.

I'm sure that none of you find it odd that one week after the "CT'ers" hit the news, the terrorist threat was elevated, when the contents of carry on luggage was restricted because of the new "LIQUID EXPLOSIVE" threat to the airline's.


I made no such thing obvious. Do you think you know, based on some photos, more than the people on the scene? Are those couple of photos the be-all and end-all of our knowledge about WTC 7, or should we consult the professionals who were there? The determination of the size and extent of the fires is based on the expert reports, not on the two photos you posted. The photos, and videos, http://tinyurl.com/f3tvd http://tinyurl.com/zg4un show a huge volume of smoke coming from many floors. If you want to argue that the volume of smoke is produced by small fires, go ahead, but support your argument with facts. Actually, forget that for now. I'd like to know – based only on the photos and videos – not including the eyewitness reports – why you think there weren't huge fires in WTC 7.

Your links don't work stud.

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And I think that there were't huge fires in the building because there is no sign of fire in the image with all the smoke rising up the side of the building. You do know that smoke rises don't you?
I guess your going to tell me that there was fire present on the floors facing south in that image, but all of the smoke decided to travel out of the east or west side of the building.
maybe the wind was blowing. :D

Take me to your leader. I'd like to have a word or two.

Your fat ass is planted on HER.

[Dog Town]

I've put up a new thread. Screen Cap and links, please!

? K ?

[tsig]

[QUOTE=Submersible;
You follow the words of your leader, and I'll follow the words of mine.[/QUOTE]

just who is your leader

[defaultdotxbe]

just who is your leader

http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/pictures/misc1017.jpg

[Brainster]

? K ?

I got it. When you see evidence on a web page that may be about to disappear (because it's become a story), it's a great idea to screen cap it--showing the important content along with the address bar in your browser, so that you have proof that it existed. You can do this by hitting the "Print Screen" button on your keyboard. This will copy an image of your screen to the clipboard. Then paste that image in an image processing program, like Photoshop or Microsoft Paint and save the image. Now you've got evidence that's a little harder for someone to deny. And try to link to the page where you got the evidence; if two of us confirm we got it with screen caps, then we've got an even stronger case.

[Gravy]

What about the massive amount of firemen in tower 1 that supposedly didn't hear the calls to evacuate because the repeater wasn't working?

When the case was closed, signed sealed and delivered by the mayor and the FDNY commissioner, their deaths were blamed on a repeater that failed, and it didn't.
And neither one of them had any additional comments to make on the subject after the Port Authority tapes were released? Nor was the investigation into their murder re-opened.
I guess it's better off to leave the blame on somebody else like OBL so "we the people" can continue to fund the war against the most RELIGIOUS sector of the Muslim world.
Let me get this straight. There were communications problems on 9/11, therefore Islamic terrorists didn't attack the U.S.? Is that your contention, Submersible?


Your links don't work stud. They do for me. I just clicked them and the videos came up. And please use the quote tags so people can tell your text from that which you're quoting.

And I think that there were't huge fires in the building because there is no sign of fire in the image with all the smoke rising up the side of the building. You do know that smoke rises don't you? Could that be because the fire is inside the building, and the heavy smoke obscures it? is that a possibility? Again, we're imagining that no professional firefighters were actually there. What do you think?

I guess your going to tell me that there was fire present on the floors facing south in that image, but all of the smoke decided to travel out of the east or west side of the building.
maybe the wind was blowing. :biggrin: I think you need to learn your directions. The south side is the one facing the WTC. It's the one with all the damage and smoke pouring out of it.

I'm sure that none of you find it odd that one week after the "CT'ers" hit the news, the terrorist threat was elevated, when the contents of carry on luggage was restricted because of the new "LIQUID EXPLOSIVE" threat to the airline's.Huh?

Your fat ass is planted on HER.Huh?

[NDBoston]

MoFiya advocates hurting President Bush

QUOTE (MoonRaver @ Sep 8 2006, 11:09 PM)
Please Dont hurt the Pres!!!

please DO

Saved and sent to theSecret Service


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12782

[gumboot]

What about the massive amount of firemen in tower 1 that supposedly didn't hear the calls to evacuate because the repeater wasn't working?

When the case was closed, signed sealed and delivered by the mayor and the FDNY commissioner, their deaths were blamed on a repeater that failed, and it didn't.


Why must you be so dishonest? Do you enjoy mocking and insulting the dead with lies?

The firemen never heard the calls to evacuate because they were using hand-held walkie talkies without a repeater, and the radios couldn't penetrate to the upper floors (I can attest to the poor performance of hand-held radios in urban settings from countless personal experience).

The REASON the repeater wasn't being used was because the fire chief's THOUGHT it wasn't working. So they started operations without it. They didn't KNOW.

This is all entirely clear and well presented. It is logical, and, in fact, supported by video evidence (The Naudet brothers captured video of Chief Pfeifer trying the repeater).

Naturally, until the tapes were released, everyone ASSUMED it was not working, because that's what the evidence indicated. I now believe it is suspected there was simply something wrong with the system at the North Tower lobby.

-Andrew

[CptColumbo]

MoFiya advocates hurting President Bush



Saved and sent to theSecret Service


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12782


I wonder if he'll get suspended...I mean if you can get banned for disagreeing with the theories behind LC, shouldn't you at least get suspended for threatening the President.

Of course, they didn't specify which president in that particular part of the exchange. Although the overall conversation was about the President of the United States...of America.

[Brainache]

So could it really be seen as incitement?
I mean it could be interpreted as a joke.(not a particularly funny one IMO)
Is it worse than the things they were saying about Abbyas? Granted she isn't the President, but they could be seen as threats.
Is it a threat if they have no intent to follow through?

[Oliver]

MoFiya advocates hurting President Bush
Saved and sent to theSecret Service

QUOTE:

9.08.2006
Let us pray.

Leaving for NYC in two hours...hope everything goes okay, I'm a little nervous, I'm not going to lie to you. There's going to be troublemakers there, let's be realistic. So I'm making a personal request, again, from anyone attending...

Be on your best behavior, and if you see anyone raising their voice or starting arguments, no matter the inspiration, shut it down ASAP. ESPECIALLY during the memorial services. The family members want to hear the names being read over the loudspeaker, not two people shouting at each other.

See you all there. Hope we make it back in one piece.

posted by dylan avery at 10:04 AM

[mrfreeze]

Dear god even the way they suggest to recognize each other is a raping of the victims corpses:

I say everyone bring a picture of their loved one pinned to their shirts and bring a candle. I mean, it's not dishonest or misleading to simply wear a picture of someone you love, and you won't be bothered or harassed by people.

Sure there's nothing wrong with giving the false impression you are a mourner who lost someone in the towers.

[Brainache]

Despicable slime.

[negativ]

So could it really be seen as incitement?
I mean it could be interpreted as a joke.(not a particularly funny one IMO)
Is it worse than the things they were saying about Abbyas? Granted she isn't the President, but they could be seen as threats.
Is it a threat if they have no intent to follow through?

Like Texas DPS troopers, US Secret Service agents have their sense of humor surgically removed at the time of hire. They've been known to have what my brother calls "come to Jesus" meetings with people for far less.

[60hzxtl]

Dear god even the way they suggest to recognize each other is a raping of the victims corpses:



Sure there's nothing wrong with giving the false impression you are a mourner who lost someone in the towers.

How about shirts that say:

Audit Dylan Avery

or

Put Jason Bermas on the No Fly list

Recall Korey Rowe

[MarkyX]

How about shirts that say:

Audit Dylan Avery

or

Put Jason Bermas on the No Fly list

Recall Korey Rowe

I really suggest you send those to ProtestWarrior :)

[Belz...]

What about the massive amount of firemen in tower 1 that supposedly didn't hear the calls to evacuate because the repeater wasn't working?

When the case was closed, signed sealed and delivered by the mayor and the FDNY commissioner, their deaths were blamed on a repeater that failed, and it didn't.

Source, evidence, etc, etc, please.

And neither one of them had any additional comments to make on the subject after the Port Authority tapes were released? Nor was the investigation into their murder re-opened.

Circular reasoning.

Your fat ass is planted on HER.

Huh ? That's disgusting, man.

[Belz...]

MoFiya advocates hurting President Bush

Saved and sent to theSecret Service

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12782

With the ludicrous amount of posts over there that advocate a revolution or such other violent action, I'd think the service should've have any trouble making a case against them.

[Belz...]

Despicable slime.

Seconded, thirded and infinited.

[WildCat]

They do for me. I just clicked them and the videos came up. And please use the quote tags so people can tell your text from that which you're quoting.
They didn't work in my browser either. But I right-clicked on it and selected "save target" and saved it on my desktop, where it ran just fine.

[MarkyX]

Loose Chan!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=70834483145677471&q=loose+chan

[Jennie C.]

Loose Chan!

I would say not quite up to the hilarity of Moose Change, but very funny all the same.

You know, my dad was a vet(erinarian). He told me once that while Golden Retrievers make great pets, you had to be careful because they had a tendency toward skin diseases.

Has anyone considered Loose Mange ??

[Brainache]

I'm waiting for Goose Change.
A chilling expose' plucking the truth from the fowl deception of the globalist foi gras industry.

[NDBoston]

There was just a great profile of Mark Dodge of Texas A&M on ESPN Gameday. He was a 4 year member of the Old Guard,The 3rd United States Infantry Regiment who performed at many public events for the Army and are hand picked for their athleticism and intelligence.

On 9/11, he was at the Pentagon. It was his job to look for bodies after the fires were out and he talks about how bad it was and how it affected him.

He is now a starting LB at the age of 25. Heart warming story of an soldier who is following his dreams.

I dare Dylan Avery to interview Mark Dodge and tell him he's lying.

[Shrinker]

If anybody else wants a hi-res printable version of that flyer I edited a while back ('we're getting nowhere!') send me a PM and I'll get it over to you.

Many thanks to The Fire for the source material.

[CptColumbo]

Apparently my ban was switched to a suspension (again), and I can post once more. There is a curious addition to my information area, a "warn %." Does this mean I'll be warned before I'm suspended or banned this time? They still never told me why I was suspended and banned before, now their going to at least let me know the level of their ire towards me, but still not tell me what I'm doing wrong (or right).

[mrfreeze]

The warning bar is there for everyone. If it has a number next to it other than 0, then you did sometihng to piss them off and clicking on the number will tell you what.

[CptColumbo]

The warning bar is there for everyone. If it has a number next to it other than 0, then you did sometihng to piss them off and clicking on the number will tell you what.

Cool. It's like my computer is telling me I've been bad.

BTW Christophera is over there spreading the gospel of concrete cores.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7&st=30

[Regnad Kcin]

...We snuff false pride with pride. Liberty and justice for all by using TRUTH.Yes. Yes, that explains it all.

[The_Fire]

If anybody else wants a hi-res printable version of that flyer I edited a while back ('we're getting nowhere!') send me a PM and I'll get it over to you.

Many thanks to The Fire for the source material.


No problem all though my 'puter is still mighty miffed at me for forcing it over to a certain ct infested blog to get it ;).

[Jennie C.]

Ahh, you just reminded me of a question. What's a woo? I think I know the general idea (wacko CTer) but why woo?

(i know what a WOC is, it's what you fwow at a wabbit)

[David Wong]

After reading 10,000 of the 14,000 posts you have on Loose change (my brain started to bleed part way through the part III) and all 3,000 odd posts in christophera's thread on the invisible concrete cores, I know that I can't post external links. You have to keep out the spam bots, I know.

But I have written an article about this and since I "borrowed" a whole lot of research from these very forums, I wanted to share it before I put it up on my own site. This is the address minus the stuff at the beginning:

pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html

You guys seem to be cool with people posting links as long as they're actually relevant to the discussion so I hope this isn't considered breaking some kind of rule. If it is I apologize, I'm not trying to mess up your forums. I've logged probably 75 hours here the last two weeks. This discussion simply isn't happening anywhere else on the level that it's happening here.

There is adult language in that article, by the way.

[sleahead]

Oh yesssss, David. Welcome to the forum. The hyperlink to David's site:

http://pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html

[jhunter1163]

David_Wong:

Excellent piece. Someone oughta post it over on the LC forum. It'd only last about 10 minutes, but it'd be worth sacrificing a sock for.

[LashL]

Ahh, you just reminded me of a question. What's a woo? I think I know the general idea (wacko CTer) but why woo?

(i know what a WOC is, it's what you fwow at a wabbit)

http://skepdic.com/woowoo.html

Woo-woo (or just plain woo) refers to ideas considered irrational or based on extremely flimsy evidence or that appeal to mysterious occult forces or powers.

Here's a dictionary definition of woo-woo:

adj. concerned with emotions, mysticism, or spiritualism; other than rational or scientific; mysterious; new agey. Also n., a person who has mystical or new age beliefs.

When used by skeptics, woo-woo is a derogatory and dismissive term used to refer to beliefs one considers nonsense or to a person who holds such beliefs.

Sometimes woo-woo is used by skeptics as a synonym for pseudoscience, true-believer, or quackery. But mostly the term is used for its emotive content and is an emotive synonym for such terms as nonsense, irrational, nutter, nut, or crazy.

For example:

1. "But the woo-woo faction has adopted the word "organic" to apply only to a plant grown without the use of anything but water and faith."*
2. I think love is the one thing that should remain firmly in the realm of the woo-woo.*
3. The National Institutes of Health offered a course in feng shui, which prompted James Randi to write of woo-woo at the NIH.
4. ...the woo-woos ... are more comfortable being ignorant of reality.*

[ktesibios]

Well written, David. I particularly liked the way that just under the bit about the eevil gummint's weather control machines there was an ad for a Tornado 3 electric fan.

The Halliburton and Freemasons ads were a nice touch as well.
:D

[T.A.M.]

David; Welcome to the JREF Skeptics Forum on Consipracy Theories. I enjoyed your piece of writing tremendously. I will be posting a link to it over at my site, 911 - You Judge later today.

TAM

[David Wong]

It also appears Halliburton's new logo is the satanic owl from Bohemian Grove.

Thanks for the kind words, everybody.

[T.A.M.]

Seems the "scholars" are miffed (sorry if already posted)...

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/PressRelease20060909.html

TAM

[60hzxtl]

Nee How David, Welcome to the cheap seats!

[Pardalis]

Welcome David.

Which makes me think, how many people registered in the last few days? Boy, this is like a gym club after the hollidays! :D

It's proof that 9/11 is a crucial event and that it matters to everyone.

Let's hope that as more people are logging in, the more the CTs will be seen for what they are: complete BS.

[T.A.M.]

I was just over at the Morgan Reynolds site. This was posted there, august 29th, so probably already posted here, but it is so enlightening wrt how deep the divide in the two camps is...just read the words...the tone in the article...even the title...

Jonesville (http://www.nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=jonesville)

From the tone, they could have called it "Jonestown"...lol

TAM

[Brainster]

It also appears Halliburton's new logo is the satanic owl from Bohemian Grove.

Thanks for the kind words, everybody.

Sorry I missed the first page when I linked it. Great job!

[R.Mackey]

Seems the "scholars" are miffed (sorry if already posted)...

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/PressRelease20060909.html

TAM
“And since the official account-that the events of 9/11 involved 19 Islamic fundamentalists hijacking four commercial airliners and perpetrating terrorist acts under control of a man in a cave in Afghanistan-involves a conspiracy, it is impossible to study 9/11 without dealing with conspiracy theories.”

Fetzer thinks the administration wants to suppress serious research on 9/11 because the official account cannot withstand scrutiny. “What the government has told us is just fine if you are willing to believe impossible things,” he observed. “Its truth requires violating laws of physics and engineering that cannot be violated and cannot be changed.”
Reading comprehension problem on the part of Fetzer, or doublespeak?

This gets sadder every day.

[Belz...]

Oh yesssss, David. Welcome to the forum. The hyperlink to David's site:

http://pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html

Great link, Dave.

I hope Avery sees this. I hope EVERYONE sees this. Maybe Gravy can print that site for next Monday.

[stateofgrace]

Welcome Dave, great work.

Somebody already dropped it off at the nuthouse. Some dude got the urge to register and add it to their research forum, wonder who that was. :D

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...pic=2737&st=60 (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=2737&st=60)

[R.Mackey]

After reading 10,000 of the 14,000 posts you have on Loose change (my brain started to bleed part way through the part III) and all 3,000 odd posts in christophera's thread on the invisible concrete cores, I know that I can't post external links. You have to keep out the spam bots, I know.

But I have written an article about this and since I "borrowed" a whole lot of research from these very forums, I wanted to share it before I put it up on my own site. This is the address minus the stuff at the beginning:

pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html (http://pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth2.html)
You guys seem to be cool with people posting links as long as they're actually relevant to the discussion so I hope this isn't considered breaking some kind of rule. If it is I apologize, I'm not trying to mess up your forums. I've logged probably 75 hours here the last two weeks. This discussion simply isn't happening anywhere else on the level that it's happening here.

There is adult language in that article, by the way.
My friend, you have a natural gift for the poison pen. Nice work.

I note, though, that when I read your article, one of your ads was for Halliburton, and another was for the Freemasons. I shouldn't wonder if they start fingering YOU for the conspiracy...

[NDBoston]

The person who set the charges at the Towers decides to admit it on the Loose Change Forums.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12855&st=0

Killtown's responses are killing me :lol:

[Jennie C.]

Woo-woo (or just plain woo) refers to ideas considered irrational or based on extremely flimsy evidence or that appeal to mysterious occult forces or powers.



Well, at least this means you aren't going to call me a woo when I go woo-HOO :D as my Buckeyes beat the snot out of Texas tonight.

And aside to David, yes, great site. To the point, and yet still humorous. The best way to go. :)

[Jennie C.]

The person who set the charges at the Towers decides to admit it on the Loose Change Forums.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12855&st=0

Killtown's responses are killing me :lol:

You're right, North Dakota Boston (:). This is pretty surreal. And it'd be nothing without Killtown

[Gravy]

After reading 10,000 of the 14,000 posts you have on Loose change (my brain started to bleed part way through the part III) and all 3,000 odd posts in christophera's thread on the invisible concrete cores :jaw-dropp

Welcome, David! Now go take a walk or something. Sheesh, even Christophera hasn't read all of his thread.

Great work on your piece. "Okay, that's probably true."
:dl:

[David Wong]

Welcome David.

Which makes me think, how many people registered in the last few days? Boy, this is like a gym club after the hollidays! :D


I was flipping past CSPAN on Monday I think. They had that talk show they do where they segregate the "Republican" and "Democrat" calls. They were interviewing a guy about the War on Terror, he had written a book about the subject. They go to the phones...

...and the VERY FIRST call I hear is a guy saying, "How can you sit there and discuss terrorism without acknowledging that 9/11 was an inside job?"

The look on the host and guest's faces were priceless, a sort of awkward embarrassment. But that's the way it is now, I run into this thing wherever I go. The first time I ever got linked to Loose Change was on a pro football forum, in a thread about the Chicago Bears. Out of the blue. That's how it is now, you can't avoid it.

So now, with the anniversary, you've got all these mainstream outlets, and Geraldo, talking about it. And so a whole bunch of people outside the usual circle of conspiracy buffs are going to see this stupid thing and right as you're doing your best job of debunking it, it's going to get record numbers of downloads.

[Dog Town]

The person who set the charges at the Towers decides to admit it on the Loose Change Forums.
Killtown's responses are killing me :lol:

My personal fave K Clown responses.
Isn't your conscience weighing down on you?

Then...
Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm curious what he has to say even though it's up to him to prove his extrodinary claim.
http://www.unipeak.com/gethtml.php?_u_r_l_=aHR0cDovL3MxNS5pbnZpc2lvbmZyZW UuY29tL0xvb3NlX0NoYW5nZV9Gb3J1bS9pbmRleC5waHA/c2hvd3RvcGljPTEyODU1JnN0PTA=
Bwahaaa!

[kevin]

But I have written an article about this and since I "borrowed" a whole lot of research from these very forums, I wanted to share it before I put it up on my own site. This is the address minus the stuff at the beginning:

pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html


Great to see you over here, i've been a fan of Pointless Waste of Time for years (even before the big Star Wars and Return of the King articles). I hadn't realized you'd written a 9/11 conspiracy article, great work there!

[Belz...]

:jaw-dropp

Welcome, David! Now go take a walk or something. Sheesh, even Christophera hasn't read all of his thread.

Chris hasn't read ANY post except his own.

[Pardalis]

Chris hasn't read ANY post except his own.

Even then...

[DanKirby]

The person who set the charges at the Towers decides to admit it on the Loose Change Forums.


Killtown's responses are killing me :lol:

Haha, I wonder if that's someone from another message board I frequent. Topics along the lines of "I'm ________. Ask me anything." are popular there, and someone with that same username posts there. Probably just a coincidence, though.

[David Wong]

Haha, I wonder if that's someone from another message board I frequent. Topics along the lines of "I'm ________. Ask me anything." are popular there


No one will ever be better at that than the guy who posted on some forums as John Titor, Time Traveller:

johntitor.com

"I'm from the future. Ask me anything." It went on for weeks and weeks. He went into great detail and convinced many. Then, he vanished. To this day, many innocent web surfers still think he was from the future.

[stateofgrace]

Well thanks very much David, I put your link over on LC and earned this......


Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Jun 5 2009, 12:14 AM.


Two posts that’s all I got in and I’m banned.

I’m heartbroken.:D

[kevin]

The name cheesewheel makes me suspect I know who that person is.

[gumboot]

Awesome article david. Welcome to the forum. Your article has a perfect balance of humour and good solid content. This passage sums it up perfectly, you hit a bullseye:

It's not a belief in corrupt leaders. Hell, we all believe in corrupt leaders. It's a belief in a corrupt everybody. It's driving around in a world where every single person you see out of your windshield is utterly bloodthirsty and amoral, all except for you and a few, brave friends. What could make you feel more important than that?

Absolutely.

-Andrew

[Brainache]

I would just like to add my compliments to David Wong for an excellent piece of work.
Keep it up!

[steve s]

The person who set the charges at the Towers decides to admit it on the Loose Change Forums.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12855&st=0

Killtown's responses are killing me :lol:

So now the troofers are skeptical. Why shouldn't they believe him? After all, they believe someone detonated the buildings. When confronted with the insanity of their beliefs they suddenly seem capable of rationality.

Steve S.

[David Wong]

So now the troofers are skeptical. Why shouldn't they believe him? After all, they believe someone detonated the buildings. When confronted with the insanity of their beliefs they suddenly seem capable of rationality.


Cheesewheel's posts are a good example, though. The good liars all have the same technique, which is they pepper their stories with little unexpected details. The hotel in New Jersey, etc.

A good interviewer can get around this by "tunnelling" through the story (What is the address of the six pay phones? At exactly what time did you make the calls? Wait a second... that booth is 15 minutes away on foot. How did you make the last call at that time? How did your handlers know someone else wouldn't be using the phone at that time?) You pick away at more and more specific details until the story comes apart.

The problem with trying to do that on the internet is he can pick and choose which questions he wants to answer. That's the fun of the "I'm ____, ask me anything" game. You have as much time as you need and you can always pretend you didn't see a question.

[T.A.M.]

Well thanks very much David, I put your link over on LC and earned this......


Two posts that’s all I got in and I’m banned.

I’m heartbroken.:D

and for 3 years no less....nice:jaw-dropp

[David Wong]

Well thanks very much David, I put your link over on LC and earned this......


Two posts that’s all I got in and I’m banned.

I’m heartbroken.:D

Wait.. seriously? What rule of theirs did that violate?

Was that a stupid question?

[JamesB]

So now the troofers are skeptical. Why shouldn't they believe him? After all, they believe someone detonated the buildings. When confronted with the insanity of their beliefs they suddenly seem capable of rationality.

Steve S.

They believe Larry Silverstein casually admitting to ordering the buildings demolished, why not some guy on an Internet forum?

[Dog Town]

The name cheesewheel makes me suspect I know who that person is.

So...?

[Alareth]

Wait.. seriously? What rule of theirs did that violate?

Was that a stupid question?

Any post that doesn't pander to the lockstep LC and the conspiracy of the week results in "Extreme Moderation"

There is no dissent allowed at LC and if you don't agree you are an "Enemy of the TRUTH"

[stateofgrace]

Wait.. seriously? What rule of theirs did that violate?

Was that a stupid question?

No not really, my first post simply linked your article which provoked a few responses. I think it was my second post that put the lid on things. I don’t think they like been called a bunch of loonies.

But hey it was fun while it lasted. :)

[Alareth]

No not really, my first post simply linked your article which provoked a few responses. I think it was my second post that put the lid on things. I don’t think they like been called a bunch of loonies.

But hey it was fun while it lasted. :)

The harsh light of real "Truth" burns their eyes.

[negativ]

The person who set the charges at the Towers decides to admit it on the Loose Change Forums.I didn't get to see it, and apparently the post is gone now. Anyone care to post a screen cap, or at least a detailed synopsis? It sounds very tasty.:cool:

[Alareth]

I didn't get to see it, and apparently the post is gone now. Anyone care to post a screen cap, or at least a detailed synopsis? It sounds very tasty.:cool:

From the little bit I saw of it everyone there took it as a sick grab for attention.

Except for Killtown. He started into an investigative profile of the guys motives for participating in such a horrible act of mass murder.

[Shrinker]

It's funny how sceptical they become whenever unambiguous 'evidence' like this turns up. It's as if actual undeniable proof would just spoil the game, and so they have to reject it.

[Belz...]

Any post that doesn't pander to the lockstep LC and the conspiracy of the week results in "Extreme Moderation"

There is no dissent allowed at LC and if you don't agree you are an "Enemy of the TRUTH"

Sounds remarkably like some of those muslim fundies that commited 9/11, doesn't it ?

[Gravy]

Any post that doesn't pander to the lockstep LC and the conspiracy of the week results in "Extreme Moderation"
Oxymoron of the month!

[Shrinker]

Any post that doesn't pander to the lockstep LC and the conspiracy of the week results in "Extreme Moderation"


This inspired me to create a banner for an LC forum signature. A badge for anyone who uses it!


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/36174504033371510.jpg

[kevin]

So...?

Looks like the thread got deleted. I didn't want to spoil the fun but I thought it was John Cheese also from Pointless Waste of Time.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/johncheese/index3.html

[Jennie C.]

I'm waiting for Goose Change.
A chilling expose' plucking the truth from the fowl deception of the globalist foi gras industry.

Hey, that fits in with Loose Chan. It's Canada striking back. After all, the lawn carp that infest us are "Canada" geese. And we know they form in Vees to fly. They formed into the shape of 767's and they flew into the WTC carrying bombs.

Which fell down the elevators and... oh wait, the elevators were "hermetically sealed." I guess I'm just not very good at this.

[Belz...]

This inspired me to create a banner for an LC forum signature. A badge for anyone who uses it!


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/36174504033371510.jpg


You're a deity, Shrink!

[StoneWT]

It's funny how sceptical they become whenever unambiguous 'evidence' like this turns up. It's as if actual undeniable proof would just spoil the game, and so they have to reject it.


This reminds me of a Holocaust Denial forum I browsed. Anything contrary, no matter how solid, was subjected to 100% proof requirements (technically impossible) and anything supporting was blindly accepted.

[Shrinker]

This reminds me of a Holocaust Denial forum I browsed. Anything contrary, no matter how solid, was subjected to 100% proof requirements (technically impossible) and anything supporting was blindly accepted.

Actually I meant it the other way. They seem to thrive on anomalies and ambiguous quotes, but when somebody comes along with totally unambiguous 'proof' of what they've been saying all along, they become much more sceptical. It's as if they know the evidence can't be real because their claims aren't real. Like I said, proving the conspiracy once and for all would spoil their game. I saw it with that video too, with the massive explosion sound on it. Some jumped up and down (or at least their emoticons did) but many said 'er, hang on guys, let's see if its real'. That's not an attitude you see when someone finds a stray pixel in a youtube video.

[David Wong]

Like I said, proving the conspiracy once and for all would spoil their game.


It's the difference between building a building and trying to vandalize a building. Building a cohesive theory about what happened on 9/11 (from their perspective) is hard. You make yourself a target. You put a solid object that thinking people can disassemble piece by piece.

No, it's much better and much easier to do the "we're just asking questions" thing.

"Why do these eyewitnesses conflict?"

"Uh, because eyewitnesses always conflict in the heat of the moment?"

"Why isn't there any video of the Pentagon plane crash?"

"Because a neighboring convenience store would have no reason to point their security cameras at the Pentagon."

"Why did people at ground zero say they heard explosions?"

"Because the building above them was falling down. It makes a tremendous sound."

"Why did the Bush administration drag their feet on the 9/11 investigation?"

"Because they didn't want to be portrayed as incompetent and unprepared in an election year, and they knew the process would be politicized."

"I'm sorry, there are just too many unanswered questions here."


In other words, the fact that they have questions is their theory. And trying to attack it is like trying to break water with a hammer. And it's so dishonest because the thing they're promoting is very specific. But the moment they state it as such, "we believe the towers were brought down with ____ amount of explosives set off in _____ locations and were placed on _____ date by ______ with the cooperation of _____," it's all over for them.

Because once they try to stand by specific people and dates and times and events, the debunkers will have something solid to destroy. But as long as the CT people stay in "we're just asking question," mode, there is nothing solid to take down. They can do it forever.

[gumboot]

In other words, the fact that they have questions is their theory. And trying to attack it is like trying to break water with a hammer.


Wack-a-mole! :hit:

-Andrew

[CptColumbo]

This inspired me to create a banner for an LC forum signature. A badge for anyone who uses it!


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/36174504033371510.jpg

Check it out.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7&st=30

We'll see how long that lasts.

[StoneWT]

Actually I meant it the other way. They seem to thrive on anomalies and ambiguous quotes, but when somebody comes along with totally unambiguous 'proof' of what they've been saying all along, they become much more sceptical. It's as if they know the evidence can't be real because their claims aren't real. Like I said, proving the conspiracy once and for all would spoil their game. I saw it with that video too, with the massive explosion sound on it. Some jumped up and down (or at least their emoticons did) but many said 'er, hang on guys, let's see if its real'. That's not an attitude you see when someone finds a stray pixel in a youtube video.

If they accept solid evidence that backs up their theories (guesses?), it would make the rest of their evidence look shoddy by comparison. Their entire 'case' is built on a foundation of unqualified kids 'analyzing' photographs, video, and taking statements out of context. Using real evidence and qualified analysis would allow a blind man to see the contradiction.

[Belz...]

In other words, the fact that they have questions is their theory.

You've hit it right on the nail, there, Dave. Good post.

[Pardalis]

But as long as the CT people stay in "we're just asking question," mode, there is nothing solid to take down. They can do it forever.

That's what I don't get. Why don't they do their friggin' "international" investigation already? Who's stopping them? What are they waiting for? Are they waiting for Bush's approval?

I'm pretty sure it's because they are affraid that their new investigation will probably lead to the same conclusions as the official story. They prefer the status quo, in that way, they can keep whining and accusing the government.

ETA: and make flashy controversial pseudo-documentaries...

[David Wong]

That's what I don't get. Why don't they do their friggin' "international" investigation already? Who's stopping them? What are they waiting for? Are they waiting for Bush's approval?

ETA: and make flashy controversial pseudo-documentaries...

Hell, why don't they drive out to Shanksville and knock on doors. Ask people if they saw a plane crash there. It certainly doesn't take a cop to do that. Reporters do it all the time. Soon you'll get a neighbor who says, "I didn't, but Maude next door saw the whole thing." So, you go knock on Maude's door. Ask her politely what she saw.

Go to the World Trade Center. Ask the people working there, security, anybody... were they working prior to 9/11? Did they see mysterious work crews - or ANY work crews - coming in and out of the building wheeling in lots of similar packages every night? Was there all kinds of unusual construction going on in the years prior to the attack?

In other words, they can stop trying to research via Google, blowing up photos and copying and pasting data from some conspiracy nut's blog. They can go out and GATHER THEIR OWN DATA.

Actually... now that I think of it, couldn't they hire a private investigator to do it? They've got the cash. Get a professional. Gather witness testimony. Get people on tape, do it right.

That's what I'd do, if I had their resources. And actually wanted to know the truth.

[The_Fire]

TV2 - Dags Dato are currently running a 9/11 special. THE BLOODY MORONS INTERVIEWED AVERY WITHOUT PRESENTING THE OPPERSITION!!!

[Gravy]

TV2 - Dags Dato are currently running a 9/11 special. THE BLOODY MORONS INTERVIEWED AVERY WITHOUT PRESENTING THE OPPERSITION!!!

Time for a Viking media rampage!

[chran]

TV2 - Dags Dato are currently running a 9/11 special. THE BLOODY MORONS INTERVIEWED AVERY WITHOUT PRESENTING THE OPPERSITION!!!
Yeah, TV 2 sucks. I didn't see it, so let's hope there's a rerun.

But apparently, it's possible to get the show on pod cast, via iTunes: http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/dagsdato/article.php/id-3923617.html

I'll have to try that :p

[The_Fire]

Yeah, TV 2 sucks. I didn't see it, so let's hope there's a rerun.

But apparently, it's possible to get the show on pod cast, via iTunes: http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/dagsdato/article.php/id-3923617.html

I'll have to try that :p

It should be available from their webpage or sputnik in a couple of days.

In their defense: On a second view, it could have been worse (managed to grab it on vhs). They could have fully endorsed it but choose a rather neutral approach, but I'm still pissed that they didn't present the oppersition. The local morons could take this as an endorsement. I'm writing Erik Skammelsen with a protest (there's a contact email-thingy on their homepage) and includes links etc.

Who know, if enough people write, may they'll pull a Popular Mechanics on it....

[60hzxtl]

edit

[Abbyas]

Question for RMackey (or anyone else who can answer):

Someone (on my blog of all places) has posed this critique of Rmackey's critique:

"I regard the first point of critique, that of one-dimensionality, as a little unfair, considering it does call for nothing less than a complete 3-dimensional FEA, which NIST, with its multimillion dollar budget, should have provided, not Ross. NIST instead decided not to inquire beyond what they deemed conditions of collapse initiation.

Momentum was examined in order to determine post-impact velocities and correlating kinetic energies. It's a necessary step, so I wonder why it's supposedly suspicious? The author rightfully says that plastic deformation demands could be calculated regardless, but fails to mention that the entire point was to calculate energy expended by accelerating the correlating mass in the first place. Afterwards, he suddenly brings up this very energy by complaining that Ross didn't regard it any further even though it should have deformed/twisted the support columns. Which is incorrect, as it didn't exceed elastic limits.

Next thing, he's complaining about the arbitrary safety factor of 4. Considering building codes often demand safety factors up to 6 and that the WTC, not exactly being a barn in Alabama, was probably engineered on the safer side, I fail to see the problem. He also claims that "there are more detailed descriptions of the WTC design available, so there's no need to guess."

Oh really? WTC blueprints remain secret up to this day. If the author can somehow access them, there would be several thousands of people happy to have a look.

His last paragraph of critique is simply outrageous! All of the balance factors Ross provides are justified:

Upper Stories Plastic & Elastic Strain: Of course the upper stories will consume some energy by deformation! Does the author somehow expect them to wait until all available KE was transferred into the lower stories? He then claims that the available KE must be doubled because the process traverses more height than one floor (when finally the deformations occur), but neglects to mention that this is accounted for under "Potential Energy Additional Downward Movement". Unbelievable...


So, in my humble opinion, the guy's been trying to poke holes into Ross' calculations, but succeeds only if you don't really pay attention. Please do, there's quite something at stake here. "

[apathoid]

Question for RMackey (or anyone else who can answer):

Someone (on my blog of all places) has posed this critique of Rmackey's critique:

I think he's shown up here as truthseeker1234. Check out the WTC Momentum Transfer thread. Same arguments as the guy on your blog.

[Gravy]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-09-10T215756Z_01_L10433189_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-BINLADEN.xml&src=rss

[T.A.M.]

ya, noone on google news seems to have posted any of this section of the tape...anyone know of a link to it.

[R.Mackey]

Question for RMackey (or anyone else who can answer):

Someone (on my blog of all places) has posed this critique of Rmackey's critique:
Yeah, that looks like the "work" of TruthSeeker1234.

It's rather hard to respond to, because the complainer evidently didn't read all of my critique. He certainly doesn't appear to understand it. Give me a few moments and I'll pull up my two reviews, and see how his whining tracks against what I actually said.

Why he chose to put that on your 'blog, instead of HERE in HIS OWN THREAD where he promised to do so, I haven't the faintest idea. Evidence suggests he's playing with less than a full deck.

[R.Mackey]

For those of you who are completely lost, some time ago I looked at Gordon Ross's paper, the one that claims after the upper block of a WTC tower fell, it would have actually been supported and carried aloft by the remaining structure, rather than leading to a progressive collapse. My original critique is found here (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1822297&postcount=576).

Shortly afterward, Dr. Greening, who had previously written an excellent whitepaper (http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf) demonstrating quite the opposite, took Ross to task, much better than I could have done. His response was published in the "journal" put out by Steven Jones's gang -- along with a rebuttal, by Ross. Always know the hazards of an uneven playing field. In any case, I also reviewed Ross's response, in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1829989#post1829989).

Recently, a rather brash newcomer has arrived on scene, calling himself "TruthSeeker1234," accusing me (and NIST, and lots of other folks) of misdeeds in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63535), while providing nothing that resembles evidence of his own. He was directed to my critiques and promised to respond.

Apparently he has now done so, but not here -- posting instead in Abby's blog. The text is shown below in entirety.

I regard the first point of critique, that of one-dimensionality, as a little unfair, considering it does call for nothing less than a complete 3-dimensional FEA, which NIST, with its multimillion dollar budget, should have provided, not Ross. NIST instead decided not to inquire beyond what they deemed conditions of collapse initiation.

Momentum was examined in order to determine post-impact velocities and correlating kinetic energies. It's a necessary step, so I wonder why it's supposedly suspicious? The author rightfully says that plastic deformation demands could be calculated regardless, but fails to mention that the entire point was to calculate energy expended by accelerating the correlating mass in the first place. Afterwards, he suddenly brings up this very energy by complaining that Ross didn't regard it any further even though it should have deformed/twisted the support columns. Which is incorrect, as it didn't exceed elastic limits.

Next thing, he's complaining about the arbitrary safety factor of 4. Considering building codes often demand safety factors up to 6 and that the WTC, not exactly being a barn in Alabama, was probably engineered on the safer side, I fail to see the problem. He also claims that "there are more detailed descriptions of the WTC design available, so there's no need to guess."

Oh really? WTC blueprints remain secret up to this day. If the author can somehow access them, there would be several thousands of people happy to have a look.

His last paragraph of critique is simply outrageous! All of the balance factors Ross provides are justified:

Upper Stories Plastic & Elastic Strain: Of course the upper stories will consume some energy by deformation! Does the author somehow expect them to wait until all available KE was transferred into the lower stories? He then claims that the available KE must be doubled because the process traverses more height than one floor (when finally the deformations occur), but neglects to mention that this is accounted for under "Potential Energy Additional Downward Movement". Unbelievable...

So, in my humble opinion, the guy's been trying to poke holes into Ross' calculations, but succeeds only if you don't really pay attention. Please do, there's quite something at stake here.

I can only assume it was put there, instead of here, to delay my finding and responding to his complaints. However, I shall do so now.

I regard the first point of critique, that of one-dimensionality, as a little unfair, considering it does call for nothing less than a complete 3-dimensional FEA, which NIST, with its multimillion dollar budget, should have provided, not Ross. NIST instead decided not to inquire beyond what they deemed conditions of collapse initiation.
Wrong. My objection is that Ross, doing essentially a back-of-envelope calculation, should have accounted for a range of possible column bending energies. This takes no FEA whatsoever to compute. Ross assumed that each column would be pinned at top and bottom, i.e. one-dimensional strain, which leads to the highest possible column breaking energy. He should have also considered the case where the column top was more-or-less free to deflect, which leads to a lower breaking energy.

This consideration turns out to be closer to the truth. As the NIST FAQ (http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm) recently released explains:
Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
Inward bowing is consistent with the lower breaking energy I am referring to.

The person complaining, whomever he may be, is obviously not well-versed in this subject. Far from requiring a "complete 3-dimensional FEA," all that is required is to substitute a different energy value into a very simple equation. This energy value can be looked up, or computed with first-year strength of materials knowledge.

Let's look at the next complaint:
Momentum was examined in order to determine post-impact velocities and correlating kinetic energies. It's a necessary step, so I wonder why it's supposedly suspicious? The author rightfully says that plastic deformation demands could be calculated regardless, but fails to mention that the entire point was to calculate energy expended by accelerating the correlating mass in the first place. Afterwards, he suddenly brings up this very energy by complaining that Ross didn't regard it any further even though it should have deformed/twisted the support columns. Which is incorrect, as it didn't exceed elastic limits.
Again, the complainer misunderstands my comments. This is somewhat tricky to explain. Indeed, the full intricacy of the calculation escaped Gordon Ross.

Ross's key argument is as follows: When the upper block hits lower floors, the upper block and a portion of the lower block match speeds, as dictated by Conservation of Momentum. But it's not just the lower contact floor, it's several floors below that rebounding, carried along by linear strain in the columns. Once the velocities of all the floors involved are computed, you know the kinetic energy of each block, and whatever energy remains goes into deforming the structure. If this energy is less than the energy required to break the columns, then the columns don't break and the building stays up.

Ross's mistakes are these: First, the kinetic energy that floors below the contact floor receive is transmitted through the support columns. This is not a harmless energy sink. Ross would have tens of lower floors suddenly accelerated to several meters per second. Far from harmlessly dissipating the energy, it adds inward stress to the columns -- just like the NIST discussed above.

Second, Ross stops his calculation at this point -- with many floors moving downward at up to several meters per second. Buildings that stay up have their floors moving at ZERO meters per second. He never bothers to show how this new kinetic energy is dissipated.

That's why I find this suspicious.

In Greening's critique of Ross (see excerpt in my second critique, linked above), Greening is satisfied to castigate Ross for claiming that 24 floors rebounded absorbing energy, when the video evidence shows that only four reacted as Ross claims. Greening further cites the video as showing that this energy, far from dissipating harmlessly, causes visible damage lower in the tower, further weakening the structure. Greening thus supports my suspicions.

This is a subtle argument, clearly too subtle for the complainer with his dubious background. Nonetheless, he should have asked for clarification.

Let's tackle complaint number three:

Next thing, he's complaining about the arbitrary safety factor of 4. Considering building codes often demand safety factors up to 6 and that the WTC, not exactly being a barn in Alabama, was probably engineered on the safer side, I fail to see the problem. He also claims that "there are more detailed descriptions of the WTC design available, so there's no need to guess."
I was complaining about the arbitrariness of Ross's assumptions. Ross does not cite it. Neither does the complainer. This appears to be an argument to incredulity.

Dr. Greening also found Ross's assertion doubtful. As he said in his rebuttal, found in the "Journal" of 9/11 Studies (http://www.journalof911studies.com/):
On pages 6 and 7 of Ross’ article we see an undefined “safety factor”, arbitrarily set at 4, used to calculate the elastic strain energy of the lower and upper storeys. In looking for any justification for the use of a safety factor of 4 for the WTC we read in Reference /6/: “The factor of safety is typically not greater than 2 in building structural designs.” (Note added July 19th, 2006: S. Sunder at a NIST Progress Report on the WTC Building Performance, presented Oct 19th, 2004, stated that the safety factor for the yielding and buckling of core columns is 1.67.)
I therefore bluntly reject this complaint about my analysis.

Let us next consider the fourth complaint:

His last paragraph of critique is simply outrageous! All of the balance factors Ross provides are justified:

Upper Stories Plastic & Elastic Strain: Of course the upper stories will consume some energy by deformation! Does the author somehow expect them to wait until all available KE was transferred into the lower stories? He then claims that the available KE must be doubled because the process traverses more height than one floor (when finally the deformations occur), but neglects to mention that this is accounted for under "Potential Energy Additional Downward Movement". Unbelievable...
Again, the complainer has missed my argument, though this one is simple. In Ross's energy balance equation, he has budgeted the gravitational collapse energy of a single floor. However, in the liability columns, he requires that two floors are destroyed -- the highest floor of the lower block, and the lowest floor of the upper block.

This is not bookkept under "Potential Energy Additional Downward Movement" as the complainer states. That item in Ross's paper refers to the gravitational energy gained when the lower floors compressed, not when a floor failed. I give credit to Ross for accounting for this item, since it is a subtle point, one that I might have missed. However, Ross's assumption that both floors would have to be destroyed before collapse could continue assumes that the upper and lower block would fail symmetrically, which is the absolute best case performance of the structure. I guess it's possible, but it is disingenuous to claim as a "conservative" estimate, as Ross does.

The complainer, alas, understands neither my critique, nor Ross's paper itself.

At last we have reached the finale:

So, in my humble opinion, the guy's been trying to poke holes into Ross' calculations, but succeeds only if you don't really pay attention. Please do, there's quite something at stake here.
This is notable because the complainer absolutely ignores both of my strongest criticisms of Ross. They are as follows, reprinted from my original analysis:
Missed that Ross also double-counted the concrete-crunching energy. In fact, neither floor would have to be pulverized before collapse could initiate -- the floors are not holding up the structure. They can be crushed later.
A final point that Ross has not addressed is that the floor that the upper stories fell upon was not in blueprint condition! It was immediately below the raging fire that collapsed the impact floor, suffered deformation from proximity to the impact floor, and was heated enough to weaken its yield strength. Again, even if we take Ross's numbers as correct, but add another floor's worth of gravitational energy, we still get collapse initiation.

In summary, I reject this complaint in its entirety:

It was not posted where I would be likely to respond to it, despite claims that it would be
The complainer demonstrates a thorough misunderstanding of structural mechanics
The complainer demonstrates unfamiliarity with Ross's papers
The complainer's appeal to incredulity regarding safety factor has been rebuffed, by experts, in a scholarly conference
The complainer fails to address or even acknowledge my two strongest objections


Unless further debate is forthcoming from the complainer, I consider this matter closed.

Thank you all for reading. I apologize for its length. I confess a personal weakness for thorough discussion.

[Abbyas]

I can't thank you enough, RMackey.

You are one hell of an asset to us.

[Regnad Kcin]

Oh yesssss, David. Welcome to the forum. The hyperlink to David's site:

http://pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.htmlYou can see the attraction right away. Most people, to feel special, have to actually do something special. But why not do what these guys do, and just make the rest of the world out to be wretched? Hell, once we've painted everyone else as mindless or murderous, all we have to do to feel superior to them is roll out of bed.Well said.

And welcome to the forum, David.

[R.Mackey]

I can't thank you enough, RMackey.

You are one hell of an asset to us.
Not at all. Your movie was far more entertaining than anything I've ever written here. :D

I keep hoping one of those nuts who keep showing up, spoiling for a fight, will actually have some scientific background... I'm still waiting.

Of course, if one did, he'd probably be much more polite. Scientists are more concerned with learning than posturing. I'm as willing as any other scientist to learn and admit I'm wrong. I just won't take your word for it -- you have to show me.

[David Wong]

Not at all. Your movie was far more entertaining than anything I've ever written here. :D



That guy in the hat playing that song about MIHOP and LIHOP made me so sad that I almost feel bad for making fun of them. Poor guy.

[Dog Town]

Can we stop mentioning the Ihop song it makes me hungry for breakfast. I also just got the Damn thing out of my head. Now it's back... Bah!

DT

[Abbyas]

That guy in the hat playing that song about MIHOP and LIHOP made me so sad that I almost feel bad for making fun of them. Poor guy.

Tell you the truth, it took a lot of convincing by my co-producer to stick him in. He does break my heart.

Beeyootiful, hilarious article, by the way.

[David Wong]

Tell you the truth, it took a lot of convincing by my co-producer to stick him in. He does break my heart.


You can see how much the conspiracy theory has done for him, giving him a purpose and an instant bunch of friends, all with a common goal. I'm guessing that guy has never belonged in a group as well as he belongs in this one.

Thank you for the kind words!

[steve s]

That's what I don't get. Why don't they do their friggin' "international" investigation already? Who's stopping them? What are they waiting for? Are they waiting for Bush's approval?

I'm pretty sure it's because they are affraid that their new investigation will probably lead to the same conclusions as the official story. They prefer the status quo, in that way, they can keep whining and accusing the government.



It's like that chemtrail nonsense. All they have to do is rent a research jet, fly it through the contrail of a jet, collect samples of the air and analyze it. They'd have their proof. But they already know what the results would be and that they'd have to give up their little conspiracy. Far better to live in ignorance and remain in Looserville.

Steve S.

[Brainster]

That guy in the hat playing that song about MIHOP and LIHOP made me so sad that I almost feel bad for making fun of them. Poor guy.

Yeah, I don't feel sorry for the Fetzers and the Joneses and the Dylan Averys, but the followers of this stuff are somewhat pathetic creatures. Still, their bubble has to be popped, their heroes exposed as charlatans and frauds.

We get complaints at SLC all the time about our mockery of the CT crowd. I wouldn't do it, except that I know it's effective in preventing the fence-sitters from crossing over to the dark side. I'd cut back if I felt that rational argument worked with the CTers themselves, but I don't think you can reason with them.

As Jonathon Swift observed, "It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."

[CptColumbo]

My local paper published my letter to the editor regarding their shoddy article about 9/11 conspiracies. It's in the Sept. 10 Startribune, page AA8, it is under the heading "Why Promote It?". They cut out the part where I compaired it to a cult however. This is as cool as when my letter to the editor got published in Amazing Spiderman.

BTW where's my badge Shrinker?
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1910134&postcount=4221

[Oliver]

No Words

Quote:"Happy Anniversary"
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12999



ADDED:

New CT:
Did they brought the buildings down?

[Shrinker]

BTW where's my badge Shrinker?
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1910134&postcount=4221

You failed to anger the beast. No badge.

[chipmunk stew]

After reading 10,000 of the 14,000 posts you have on Loose change (my brain started to bleed part way through the part III) and all 3,000 odd posts in christophera's thread on the invisible concrete cores, I know that I can't post external links. You have to keep out the spam bots, I know.

But I have written an article about this and since I "borrowed" a whole lot of research from these very forums, I wanted to share it before I put it up on my own site. This is the address minus the stuff at the beginning:

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html


Welcome, David! This is hilarious! Thanks for the contribution.

[negativ]

We get complaints at SLC all the time about our mockery of the CT crowd. For you and Abby and everyone else who feels pangs of guilt at mocking the infinitely mockable, I offer myself up as a sin-eater.

Go right ahead and be as cruel and venomous as you're inclined to be, and if/when your conscience nags at you, just tell it that I said/did it. I don't mind at all. I can be the imaginary friend who gets the blame for drawing on the wall.