Loose Change - Part IV

[Ramooone]

LC:FC is going to be the biggest joke ever. i actually can't wait for it, they're becoming the biggest internet trainwreck, you just gotta stop and watch the ********.

they call us sheep, but if it werent for internet movies like loose change, or eyewitness 9/11 some of them would never even know of the alternate theories. whos the real sheep.

[T.A.M.]

I await his video with great anticipation. I somehow doubt he will do much to any of those he listed, because unlike he, AJ, and JF, none of the Debunkers have actually mocked the dead.

[Johnny C.]

Hey you guys I need help real quick...

Has thermite ever been used to demolish a building?

[defaultdotxbe]

just the WTC (supposedly)

[Mancman]

Hey you guys I need help real quick...

Has thermite ever been used to demolish a building?

It has never been used for a conventional building demolition. Truthers often state that it is used in military demolition, I've never seen any examples though.

[Johnny C.]

I didnt think so. Thanks.

[Brainster]

LOL. Final Cut contains the same debunked crap already...

Fetzer? The Jones brothers? Using old CNN footage to prove hijackers were alive?

WHen it comes to facts, they're already gone. The problem is the Denial Movement doesn't care for such things, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

Nah, LCFC is going to be perfect! Eighty minutes of listening to the clock lady!

[Ramooone]

im surprised none of the loosers have claimed that it was the dust that made the building explode, like those old grain elevators that used to blow up. it would leave no chemical trace and its as easy as dumping a couple of sacks of flour down the elevator shafts and adding fire!! i think i may need to visit their message board and spice things up a little bit. its not any crazier a theory than any of the others on that board.

[T.A.M.]

Here is something hillarious...Google Scholar is a place where you can look up professional articles published in journals etc...

try doing a search with the words "Thermate" and "Demolition" together...I got one hit...total...and guess what topic it was on...

[Hellbound]

It has never been used for a conventional building demolition. Truthers often state that it is used in military demolition, I've never seen any examples though.

Well, in a pinch, you could cut, say, bridge supports with it. And if you call destroying a vehicle "demolition" then yeah. And, of course, in military literature incendiaries are often included under the "demolitions" heading.

Also, as an improvised measure, some incendiaries can be turned into explosives with the right addatives, such as flour (any fine, flammable particulate for the most part). But this is an improvised solution that is sub-optimal compared to pretty much any conventional explosive.

[T.A.M.]

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Explosives,,00.html

Not seeing Thermite or Thermate listed anywhere in this article.

[T.A.M.]

Its funny, I am reading up on Thermite and Thermate, and the very first thing that strikes me is...

Ya, you can use them for demolition, but by god you are picking one of the most difficult, unsafe, unsure ways of doing it.

This stuff is unstable, hard to ignite, unreliable, requires great skill and time to set up..

[defaultdotxbe]

but it sounds really cool when used in a conspiracy theory so that proves it was thermite/thermate/super-duper-nano-thermate-limited-edition

[Belz...]

LOL. Final Cut contains the same debunked crap already...

Fetzer? The Jones brothers? Using old CNN footage to prove hijackers were alive?

WHen it comes to facts, they're already gone. The problem is the Denial Movement doesn't care for such things, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

Just watched the "9/11 deniers speak" video.

It really is infuriating how much total disregard for anything of value these people have.

And this Fetzer fellow's a real piece of work, isn't he ? Yep. Beat 'em up with your luggage, boy. See if that works.

[Brainster]

Its funny, I am reading up on Thermite and Thermate, and the very first thing that strikes me is...

Ya, you can use them for demolition, but by god you are picking one of the most difficult, unsafe, unsure ways of doing it.

This stuff is unstable, hard to ignite, unreliable, requires great skill and time to set up..

Ah, but cold thermate....

[T.A.M.]

But he has special "disarming" luggage that is able to render conventional bombs and explosives inoperable.

[T.A.M.]

The journal for 9/11 studies:

Editors:

Prof. Steven E. Jones
Department of Physics and Astronomy
N-269 Eyring Science Center
Brigham Young University
Provo, Utah, USA 84602
Steven_Jones@byu.edu

ADVISORY EDITORIAL BOARD

Alex Floum, Marcus Ford, Derrick Grimmer, Richard McGinn, Kimberly Moore, Robert Moore, Diana Ralph, Kevin Ryan, Robert Stevens, Lon Waters and Paul Zarembka.

Manuscripts to be considered for publication should be sent to one of the Editors. All papers will be subjected to peer-review prior to online publication.

Preferably, manuscripts should be submitted electronically. Referee reports and correspondence should also be sent by e-mail if possible.


I post this, as it is suppose to contain "peer reviewed articles". Is the advisory board the "Peers" who review, and if not then who? If so, anyone know their qualifications.

I am guess it is a farce of a legitimate peer review.

[Brainster]

Just watched the "9/11 deniers speak" video.

It really is infuriating how much total disregard for anything of value these people have.

And this Fetzer fellow's a real piece of work, isn't he ? Yep. Beat 'em up with your luggage, boy. See if that works.

Well, it would work (assuming everybody else fought back as well). The key is that's September 12th thinking, not September 11th. Nobody on the morning of September 11th would have thought of fighting back against a group of hijackers, unless they found out their plane was doomed if they didn't.

It's really akin to historicism; judging the people of the past by the standards of today. It's hard to avoid when thinking about slaveholders or segregationists, but this reveals how mistaken one can be when judging incidents of only a few years ago.

[Brainster]

The journal for 9/11 studies:

I am guess it is a farce of a legitimate peer review.

Did you read the elephant plane article? :rolleyes:

[defaultdotxbe]

NYT on Kevin Barret (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/education/01madison.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

“The 9/11 report will be universally reviled as a sham and a cover-up very soon,” said Mr. Barrett

havent people been saying that about evolution for decades? lol

[kevin]

This stuff is unstable, hard to ignite, unreliable, requires great skill and time to set up..

it's actually very stable until lit. It doesn't go off by accident. It's slow burning too. Not really an explosive.

[WildCat]

There was a video on youtube of some US soldiers putting a thermite grenade on a safe they found and igniting it, but it doesn't seem to be there any more. Basically they were goofing off, didn't look like they were carrying out an order or anything like that. Just doing stuff any 19 year old would do given a thermite grenade coupled w/ boredom...

eta: found it on google video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2289367460324643450

[T.A.M.]

I wonder if he reported these death threats to the police...

They can't possibly expect people to take this journal seriously, at least not as a SCIENTIFIC Journal.. Maybe as a parody, but then again it is too far off the mark to even resemble a parody.

just rediculous.

[T.A.M.]

sorry, I meant with respect to remote, timed, detonation. I am no expert, but from my reading, it seems like it is easy to activate with a blow torch, but requires some prep to detonate remotely with fuses etc.. Am I wrong.

[T.A.M.]

So I am reading roger over at LC, and he is commenting that the air force has admitted to "Scrambling" jets 67 times, but that PM says that the only plane intercepted was payne stewarts, and that this a huge mistake made by the PM article.

So I am asking myself...(1) does scramble mean airborne and searching for something (2) are aircraft only "Scrambled" to intercept other aircraft, or are there other reasons to scramble jets, and (3) how is PM wrong. Certainly not from what roger says. 67 scrambles and one intercept of aircraft in US airspace are not statements that are incompatable with each other.

[realitybites]

it's actually very stable until lit. It doesn't go off by accident. It's slow burning too. Not really an explosive.
I'm sure this has been covered here before, but isn't it extremely difficult to use thermite/ate to cut horizontally? Every video I've ever seen of a thermite reaction, it just burns through whatever it's on (like alien blood).

How would it cut through core columns?

[T.A.M.]

I guess if you taped them using duct tape to the columns

| |
| |
Thermate
| |
| |

:)

[Brainster]

So I am reading roger over at LC, and he is commenting that the air force has admitted to "Scrambling" jets 67 times, but that PM says that the only plane intercepted was payne stewarts, and that this a huge mistake made by the PM article.

So I am asking myself...(1) does scramble mean airborne and searching for something (2) are aircraft only "Scrambled" to intercept other aircraft, or are there other reasons to scramble jets, and (3) how is PM wrong. Certainly not from what roger says. 67 scrambles and one intercept of aircraft in US airspace are not statements that are incompatable with each other.

I've always assumed that in the vast majority of the cases the order to scramble was called back before the planes even reached the air, and that even in those where the fighters went aloft, they were called back as well as the planes finally responded to radio contact. After all, how many hijackings were there in the US recently, prior to 9-11? The last one I can remember is the nut on the PSA flight who shot the pilots and that was 1987.

[MarkyX]

So I am reading roger over at LC, and he is commenting that the air force has admitted to "Scrambling" jets 67 times, but that PM says that the only plane intercepted was payne stewarts, and that this a huge mistake made by the PM article.

So I am asking myself...(1) does scramble mean airborne and searching for something (2) are aircraft only "Scrambled" to intercept other aircraft, or are there other reasons to scramble jets, and (3) how is PM wrong. Certainly not from what roger says. 67 scrambles and one intercept of aircraft in US airspace are not statements that are incompatable with each other.

According to FAA website..

http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/MIL/Ch1/mil0103.3.html

Scramble. Departure of an aircraft training for or for the purpose of participating in an air defense mission.

Scramble Order. A command and authorization for flight requiring time, of not more than 5 minutes, to become airborne.

Intercept is also a seperate order

Intercept. The encounter with or tracking of an airborne object, normally as a result of a flight path preplanned to effect such encounter in the shortest practicable time.

In conclusion, just because a plane scrambles doesn't mean they intercept. Both are completely seperate entities.

[Brainster]

I'm sure this has been covered here before, but isn't it extremely difficult to use thermite/ate to cut horizontally? Every video I've ever seen of a thermite reaction, it just burns through whatever it's on (like alien blood).

How would it cut through core columns?

Jones says that somebody's taken a patent out on a device that is capable of cutting at a 45 degree angle to horizontal, so it would make a diagonal cut. I don't know if thermate is capable of shooting out like that, because of course it would have to come out with some force to get through those steel girders. I think Gravy pointed out that while Jones has said that the discovery of one of these at the WTC would prove the CT, doesn't the non-discovery of thousands of them disprove it?

BTW, Jones was not lying in his speech when he said you can buy thermite/thermate on ebay. They ship it via priority mail, so it must be stable.

[JamesB]

The journal for 9/11 studies:

Editors:

Prof. Steven E. Jones
Department of Physics and Astronomy
N-269 Eyring Science Center
Brigham Young University
Provo, Utah, USA 84602
Steven_Jones@byu.edu

ADVISORY EDITORIAL BOARD

Alex Floum, Marcus Ford, Derrick Grimmer, Richard McGinn, Kimberly Moore, Robert Moore, Diana Ralph, Kevin Ryan, Robert Stevens, Lon Waters and Paul Zarembka.

Manuscripts to be considered for publication should be sent to one of the Editors. All papers will be subjected to peer-review prior to online publication.

Preferably, manuscripts should be submitted electronically. Referee reports and correspondence should also be sent by e-mail if possible.


I post this, as it is suppose to contain "peer reviewed articles". Is the advisory board the "Peers" who review, and if not then who? If so, anyone know their qualifications.

I am guess it is a farce of a legitimate peer review.

I asked that question on the forum that Brumsen set up. It was suggested I inquire with Steven Jones. Yeah, like that is going to work.

[SRW]

Just watched the "9/11 deniers speak" video.

It really is infuriating how much total disregard for anything of value these people have.

And this Fetzer fellow's a real piece of work, isn't he ? Yep. Beat 'em up with your luggage, boy. See if that works.


I guess these hijackers (who would not let you use a credit card) would not slice you to bits-while you reach up into the overhead compartment to get your James Bond briefcase. The one with the hidden knife and concealed gun camera.

[defaultdotxbe]

According to FAA website..

http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/MIL/Ch1/mil0103.3.html

Scramble. Departure of an aircraft training for or for the purpose of participating in an air defense mission.

Scramble Order. A command and authorization for flight requiring time, of not more than 5 minutes, to become airborne.

Intercept is also a seperate order

Intercept. The encounter with or tracking of an airborne object, normally as a result of a flight path preplanned to effect such encounter in the shortest practicable time.

In conclusion, just because a plane scrambles doesn't mean they intercept. Both are completely seperate entities.
to further elaborate on this, according to 911myths the 67 scrambles were in NORAD's ADIZ (air defense intercept zone) and before 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ, so none of these 67 scramble/intercepts would have taken place in US airspace, to date the only report ive seen of an intercept of a civilian aircraft over US soil was Payne Stewart's jet

[Dog Town]

Speaking of "The C-Span Debacle" any ever buy Thermite on E-Bay? Sounds fun for the 4th.

[kevin]

There was a video on youtube of some US soldiers putting a thermite grenade on a safe they found and igniting it, but it doesn't seem to be there any more. Basically they were goofing off, didn't look like they were carrying out an order or anything like that. Just doing stuff any 19 year old would do given a thermite grenade coupled w/ boredom...

eta: found it on google video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2289367460324643450

I hope they didn't expect to find anything in the safe afterwards....

The thermite videos (and there are a bunch on youtube and google video) are interesting in a particular aspect -- no matter what container they seem to put the thermite in the bottom of the container is destroyed but the sides are barely damaged. How the heck would you take out a vertical column with this stuff?

[kevin]

I heard an interesting story today, a guy was telling me about a concrete "wall" he had built out of old A/C compressor pads put up on end. These are usually a couple of inches thick with wire mesh or rebar in them.

He was burning some old wood trash (yes, still legal in many parts of missouri) in front of the wall. After awhile he started hearing these pops and bangs (like an m80 according to him.) At first he thought it was the wood, but after the fire burned down he notice the fronts of the concrete had exploded off exposing the wire mesh. He figures the metal heated up very quickly and basically blew the fronts of the pads off.

Anyone know if this is common in building fires where there is a concrete floor, especially when a flammable liquid is poured on the concrete? I'd be curious if this happened on floors in the WTC that were on fire.

[Dog Town]

With sooper doooper poooper mate....shhh top secret. Coming to a WAL-MART near you! Sorry that was for your last post.K.

[realitybites]

Jones says that somebody's taken a patent out on a device that is capable of cutting at a 45 degree angle to horizontal, so it would make a diagonal cut. I don't know if thermate is capable of shooting out like that, because of course it would have to come out with some force to get through those steel girders. I think Gravy pointed out that while Jones has said that the discovery of one of these at the WTC would prove the CT, doesn't the non-discovery of thousands of them disprove it?

BTW, Jones was not lying in his speech when he said you can buy thermite/thermate on ebay. They ship it via priority mail, so it must be stable.
The CTers are under the impression they have photographic evidence of such a cut. The clean-up crews' oxyacetylene torches aren't even a remote possibility for them.

So what are we up to now for the CTCD...?

X amount of explosives. X amount of thermite/mate. X amount of fuses. X amount of angled thermite devices. X amount of wiring. X amount of detonators. X amount of ingnition soucres. X number of CD specialists willing to kill innocent people and keep quiet about it. X number of hours to survey, prep, and set said devices without anyone seeing. And Dick Cheney.

.... Cake walk.

[defaultdotxbe]

anyone care to make a prediction on what will and wont be in LC3?

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=139

[60hzxtl]

anyone care to make a prediction on what will and wont be in LC3?

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=139

It'll be a music video.

Or, the 9/11 Conspiracy Circus, with a ring representing the right, a ring representng the left,and in the center ring, wearing the top hat, and holding the whip, will be Ring Master Dylan Avery.

There will be a disproportionate number of clowns in this circus, and the guy with the broom and the shovel will have the hardest job.

Loose Change - The Greatest Snow on Earth!

[MarkyX]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.


Hello Mark. I just watched your captions to the aforementioned video. I am a neutral observer trying to piece together the events of 911 for myself through evidence and not through mere alligations. I have a college degree and am a recent graduate of the University of Kentucky. I have a degree in Telecommunications and am a film editor in Dallas, TX. It seems to me, in my opinion, if these alligations are so perposterous that there would be no need for you to try and disprove these notions with blatant pleas of sympathy and patriotism. Do you have a degree or have any formal schooling? Well, if you don't, let me be the first to tell you that nepotism is a major American and human theme. The phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is perhaps the most true phrase I have ever heard. Those with power will do anything to retain it if they can justify it in their own minds. Look at the mob for example and their dedication to family and "Christian" values with a blatant disregard for human life. I am sorry it is hard for you to question. I realize your importance for some in your rallying of a "simple" cause to a huge problem. We were attacked, that makes it "OK" for us to attack at will. I think that your video in and of itself is argument enough alone for the cause you aim to disprove. If this is so wildl to you, why do you spend so much time trying to disprove it? That means you think that people will believe it. If you know more than these other people, you are self-riteous and believe that you know more than others. You should take a step back. I am educated and I am not satisfied with the explinations of 9/11. I think that when the nation as a whole has been presented with all the evidence available then we can make a legitimate decision. But, as the video and numerous other video's have shown, we simply are not privy to all the information available. I think that instead of pleading to emotion, if you truly cared about dispelling this myth then you should also fight to see these hidden tapes and fight to have lie-detector test administered to those accused, and sworn testimony written in the records of Congress. Until this happens, you can spit back your opinion and others will spit back at you. We will never have all the answers unless we work together to learn the things that have been held from us.

If this kid wants to sell t-shirts let him. That is America my friend. People will always burn flags, spit on people and kill each other. But the U.S. is on trial here, and if I was a juror I would demand more info before reaching an innocent decision for the defendent. I hope you would to if I was on trial. I hope you would use your comic book endorsement and other ad money from your site to help your arguments build and end this conspiracy. I hope you are using your newly stuffed pockets to help the victims of 9/11 and not spend a dime on yourself. But....I would assume you have paid yourself for your "patriotic duty." You may not have a t-shirt but you have spent a couple extra bucks on yourself. Lets find the truth together...but I don't think you are interested in investing your money on that kind of project....you should probably use it to invest in haliburton or other arms dealers...as we can all see in recent light how they are the ones who are profiting from this unfortunate event.

I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).

[Abbyas]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.

Good grief. Why is it that these people demand you question the government, but hate it when you question them?

Of course Avery has the right to say what he wants. Doesn't mean he has the right to have it go unchecked.

You know, I've talked with people about what it is that Avery, Bermas, Fetzer, etc, etc are after. After watching your "911 deniers speak" videos, you can see that these people are treated like small town rockstars. They are cheered and adored. Christ, Fetzer looks just like a fire-and-brimstone preacher at the pulpit. And after his "Americans would fight back" spiel, he's applauded and cheered.

These people will never give up. Not because they don't believe, but because they will never have a fan base as large.

[Abbyas]

A little story.

My second time at GZ with the troothers, I brought a buddy. He wasn't nearly as into this stuff as I am, but recognizes it for the comedic goldmine that it is. He started flirting with a young, lady truther and had the following exchanges:

"So, any cute guys in the truth movement?"

"Look around."

"I'll take that as a 'no'."

He went on, "So you must feel complete now, huh?"

"Excuse me?"

"Well, you know, you have a purpose now. Any hole that you had before is now filled."

These people now have a reason. When I first met Les Jamison, the guy from Ronald Wieck's show, I asked him if he was a scientist. He said "Yes."

I was incredulous, "You are?"

"Well, I'm a researcher."

Now he gets a title. He'll never back down. Not because there isn't enough compelling evidence. He's important now.

[gtc]

I hope they didn't expect to find anything in the safe afterwards....

The thermite videos (and there are a bunch on youtube and google video) are interesting in a particular aspect -- no matter what container they seem to put the thermite in the bottom of the container is destroyed but the sides are barely damaged. How the heck would you take out a vertical column with this stuff?


Put the thermite in a container. Twist the container 90 degrees and attach the bottom of the container to the side of the vertical column.:boggled:

[Brainster]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.

I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).

Doesn't say much for the purported quality of education at the University of Kentucky. "self-riteous, explinations, video's", eh? After he spends several sentences talking about how well-educated he is.

[Dog Town]

Dying to see ya rip him for that.You.... you.... unedgamacated hickkk!

[Brainster]

A little story.

These people now have a reason. When I first met Les Jamison, the guy from Ronald Wieck's show, I asked him if he was a scientist. He said "Yes."

I was incredulous, "You are?"

"Well, I'm a researcher."

Now he gets a title. He'll never back down. Not because there isn't enough compelling evidence. He's important now.

I think he means he's science-curious. He certainly came off as an incredibly dim bulb in that interview with Wieck. Of course I'm not sure anybody in the 9-11 Denial Movement could have handled that questioning.

[MikeW]

So I am reading roger over at LC, and he is commenting that the air force has admitted to "Scrambling" jets 67 times, but that PM says that the only plane intercepted was payne stewarts, and that this a huge mistake made by the PM article.
Here's what PM actually said:

In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999.
One plane over North America. And the others?

Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ).
They admit there were other interceptions, but these were not over North America. No conflict with the 67 scrambles claim here.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=3&c=y

The same claim is repeated in Plane & Pilot magazine:

Terms like Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) and temporary flight restriction (TFR) quickly came into widespread use among the general-aviation pilot group. Those terms had been around for years. Military fighters and the ADIZ protected American coasts from intrusions by Russian Bear Bombers throughout the Cold War. TFRs were used for presidential security and other extraordinary events. But they weren’t part of a pilot’s everyday life. You didn’t get intercepted and forced down if you flew through a TFR.

Today, things are different. There’s an ADIZ that surrounds Washington, D.C. In the four years after 9/11, it was violated over 1,000 times. The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) has scrambled fighters for intercepts within U.S. borders over 1,600 times. In the year previous to 9/11, NORAD intercepted airplanes in the ADIZ only 67 times, none of which occurred within the U.S. borders.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/oct/busting_tfr.html

One or two other comments at http://www.911myths.com/html/67_intercepts.html

[SRW]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.


Why can't someone so educated spend the hour or so to figure out how little substance the CT'ers have backing them up.

And when he talks about giving all the "suspects" lie detector tests, does he realize that there would be thousands of people needed to keep this conspiracy running, so the test would run into the millions. Not to mention that lie detectors are a load of crap anyway.

Should I mention my degree in this post, and every email I send out it just makes me sound so much more learned.

[Matthew Best]

Doesn't say much for the purported quality of education at the University of Kentucky. "self-riteous, explinations, video's", eh? After he spends several sentences talking about how well-educated he is.

That's just what I was thinking, except that you missed "alligations" and "perposterous". Is it really possible to get a degree in Telecommunications without being able to spell properly?

[brumsen]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.
Seems to me like this is a brilliant example of how we can expect the discussion to improve as a result of your video.

On one thing he is right though, IMHO. Why is there not a more concerted effort from debunkers' side to have all possible evidence released, incl. testimonies under oath?

[brumsen]

I asked that question on the forum that Brumsen set up. It was suggested I inquire with Steven Jones. Yeah, like that is going to work.
So, did you?

[Dog Town]

Seems to me like this is a brilliant example of how we can expect the discussion to improve as a result of your video.

On one thing he is right though, IMHO. Why is there not a more concerted effort from debunkers' side to have all possible evidence released, incl. testimonies under oath?

Because we, or just I, have enough evidence to come to a reasonable conclusion.The other things will come in time.My question is this; what will deniers say when that happens? Claim it all to be fake? Careful, keeping score here!

[brumsen]

Because we, or just I, have enough evidence to come to a reasonable conclusion.The other things will come in time.My question is this; what will deniers say when that happens? Claim it all to be fake? Careful, keeping score here!
Typical. "We have all the evidence we need, and anyway any new evidence is going to be claimed fake by conspiracists since it's not going to fit with their beliefs, so no point in releasing it". This attitude is not doing much for credibility.

[Dog Town]

Typical. "We have all the evidence we need, and anyway any new evidence is going to be claimed fake by conspiracists since it's not going to fit with their beliefs, so no point in releasing it". This attitude is not doing much for credibility.


Enough to make a reasonable conclusion, does not mean it will not be nice when we get the rest. It will be !!!!!!!.Look to the wealth of info from Moose Boy the retarded hijacker trial. Did any of it help your theories out at all? I did't think so:-0....... As for credibility, the CTers seem to have the problems in that realm.So what was your point? BTW Should I put you down for "it will all be fake" vote?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

A brave structural/fire protection engineer has waded into the intellect sucking black hole of stupid that is the LC forums:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9595

I sent him an invite to come say Hi to us here once he's been banned for failure to meet the minimum smilies per post quota.

[brumsen]

As for credibility, the CTers seem to have the problems in that realm.So what was your point?
so... debunkers do not need to address any problems they might have in that realm? Ah yes I see, it's much more pressing to spend energy on showing what stoopids these Loosers are.

[Dog Town]

so... debunkers do not need to address any problems they might have in that realm? Ah yes I see, it's much more pressing to spend energy on showing what stoopids these Loosers are.


See that wasn't so hard ,now was it? Have a beer with that epiphany! You've earned it.

[sleahead]

Seems to me like this is a brilliant example of how we can expect the discussion to improve as a result of your video.

On one thing he is right though, IMHO. Why is there not a more concerted effort from debunkers' side to have all possible evidence released, incl. testimonies under oath?


Debunkers only require sufficent evidence to rebut the claims of the CTs. It is really up to CTs to prove their case and acquire the evidence to do so. Is there any specific evidence you would like to see released?

Testimonies under oath? Suppose Larry Silverstein testified under oath that he meant pull out the firefighters when he said "pull it". Do you think that would make one jot of difference to the CTs?

[gumboot]

From the e-mail MarkyX received... one thing stuck out...

But the U.S. is on trial here, and if I was a juror I would demand more info before reaching an innocent decision for the defendent.

:eek:

You need evidence to be proven innocent??? :confused:

I'm frightened.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

Okay,

On a more serious note. I have been reading comments in response to the "9/11 Deniers Speak" video. Interesting points raised. I'd just like to offer my fair share of points.

Once, in order to speak out with any authority on a topic, one had to be an authority. The people who created works of scientific or investigative nature (originally "Books") these people could not get their works published unless they were recognised to be an authority.

The same is not true today. Anyone can be "published". PCs provide the tools for self-authorship. The internet provides a ready audience for self-publication.

Thus being "published", having created a work, does not promise status as an authority, the way it used to. As such, it is only just, and right, and responsible, that people who publish their works in this way present their credentials. Work that is not supported by authority should be rejected (Note, I am using "authority" in the scientific sense, not the government sense).

When people do not present their credentials, it is only just and right and proper that the market for these works seek those credentials independently.

And when people discover that the "authors" of works are not authorities, and have no credentials, it is the duty of those people to inform the rest of the audience of this fact.

Would any of us allow a doctor without qualifications to go unhindered? Would we leave a fake policeman unexposed? Would we look the other way while a con-man herbalist tricks cancer sufferers into handing over their money for false promises?

I would not. Never. I would expose those people for what they are, without remorse, without sympathy.

This is what MarkyX has done with the "Deniers Speak" video. He has drawn down the curtain and revealed the little weedy man behind the wizard. He has exposed the charlatans, who feast on human misery like some kind of ghoul.

I applaud his work, and I applaud the work of everyone else here who has worked tirelessly to battle this wave of ignorance.

May the whole world see these miserable peddlers in paranoia for what they truly are.

The consequences of the truth are the burden of these people, and they alone. May they reap what they sow.

-Andrew

ETA. Okay, I ranted a little... but the sentiment remains.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Attack of The Son of The Chicken Coop Arsonist!

Title of a cheesy 1950's horror movie? The title of the even more cheesy next star wars novie?

Or how about a kid who needs to give up 9-11 conspiracism and go... i don't know...talk to a girl, maybe?

http://www.freewebs.com/democraatus/page04.htm

[Belz...]

Well, it would work (assuming everybody else fought back as well).

Depending on what's in the luggage...

[Belz...]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.

I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).

He talks as though the US court system assumes the accused is guilty until proven innocent.

And what's "self-riteous". Are we a cult, now ?

[WildCat]

so... debunkers do not need to address any problems they might have in that realm? Ah yes I see, it's much more pressing to spend energy on showing what stoopids these Loosers are.
Brumsen, I've asked many CT'ers what problem exactly they have w/ the official NIST reports. Specific problems, please give the report and page number. And guess what - none has ever been able to do so. All we ever get is a generic "the official report is a joke" type response or a classic moving the goal post tactic such as "well did they match up all the plane parts serial numbers w/ the maintenance records".

So I'll ask you - what exactly do you think is wrong w/ the official NIST reports?

[WildCat]

From the e-mail MarkyX received... one thing stuck out...



:eek:

You need evidence to be proven innocent??? :confused:

I'm frightened.

-Andrew
Exactly - jurys can only find a defendant guilty or not guilty. They don't ever declare innocence, and for good reason.

[chipmunk stew]

I heard an interesting story today, a guy was telling me about a concrete "wall" he had built out of old A/C compressor pads put up on end. These are usually a couple of inches thick with wire mesh or rebar in them.

He was burning some old wood trash (yes, still legal in many parts of missouri) in front of the wall. After awhile he started hearing these pops and bangs (like an m80 according to him.) At first he thought it was the wood, but after the fire burned down he notice the fronts of the concrete had exploded off exposing the wire mesh. He figures the metal heated up very quickly and basically blew the fronts of the pads off.

Anyone know if this is common in building fires where there is a concrete floor, especially when a flammable liquid is poured on the concrete? I'd be curious if this happened on floors in the WTC that were on fire.
It's called "spalling", and when it happens rapidly, as is common in a fire, it makes loud pops and bangs. NIST has a section in their WTC fire test reports observing spalling and the associated noise.

[soetkin]

As Gravy knows, I've only just started dipping my toes in this whole controversy.
I had a small question about the box cutters. Can anyone tell me where I can find the phonecall transcripts where the passengers and/or the flight attendants stated that the terrorists had killed/stabbed people. I've found the Betty Ong transcript, but I was wondering if it was mentioned on the other flights (united 93 specifically) also. Google is such a mess to wade through.
Thanks!

[chipmunk stew]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.



I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).The U.S. is on trial??? WTF?!?

Sounds like this ******* just finished a couple of 101 courses at community college to me.

let me be the first to tell you that nepotism is a major American and human theme. The phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is perhaps the most true phrase I have ever heard.

meaning
Let me demonstrate how educated I am by reducing the motive behind the 9/11 conspiracy to a phrase I read in my sociology textbook which, like, totally blew my mind.

[chipmunk stew]

Put the thermite in a container. Twist the container 90 degrees and attach the bottom of the container to the side of the vertical column.:boggled:Well, if you close the lid tightly enough while it's vertical, won't you trap the gravity in?

[MarkyX]

Hey kids..

Look at those anonymous comments.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147&hl=en

They are on Google...how would I report this?

[realitybites]

For anyone that isn't banned over at LC, please go to this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9604) Dylan's talking about how the Albany 9/11 exhibit has pictures of the FDR and CVR from the flights that hit the towers and how the 9/11 Commission says they were never recovered. Regardless.... give the thread a while to load as he has a bunch of pictures taken from the exhibit.

Now.... compare the ones taken of of the recorders to the ones taken of the rest of the exhibits. Am I going nuts or does it look like the recorders weren't taken by the same camera at the same place and maybe, possibly (to use a popular CT meme) "planted" by Dylan in the post.

Am I going all woo?

[kookbreaker]

For anyone that isn't banned over at LC, please go to this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9604) Dylan's talking about how the Albany 9/11 exhibit has pictures of the FDR and CVR from the flights that hit the towers and how the 9/11 Commission says they were never recovered. Regardless.... give the thread a while to load as he has a bunch of pictures taken from the exhibit.

Now.... compare the ones taken of of the recorders to the ones taken of the rest of the exhibits. Am I going nuts or does it look like the recorders weren't taken by the same camera at the same place and maybe, possibly (to use a popular CT meme) "planted" by Dylan in the post.

Am I going all woo?

Everything else has Museum signage, and these things have a hand scribbled note? They are definately in some kind of casing, as the reflection and glare shows, but without any singage we have no idea what we are looking at.

ETA: This could be showing an example of the damaged/destroyed recorders (those things in the back) being shown side-by-side with undamaged recorders that were donated by the Airlines.

Flight recorders from accidents are the property of the airlines. Though they are often seized as part of crash investigations, Airlines are not in the habit of donating FR's involved in crashes to anyone.

[realitybites]

Everything else has Museum signage, and these things have a hand scribbled note? They are definately in some kind of casing, as the reflection and glare shows, but without any singage we have no idea what we are looking at.
And why is there such a difference in the quality of the photos themselves? They obviously weren't taken on the same day with the same camera.

I hate sounding like one of them, but this just strikes me as odd.

[60hzxtl]

Everything else has Museum signage, and these things have a hand scribbled note? They are definately in some kind of casing, as the reflection and glare shows, but without any singage we have no idea what we are looking at.

ETA: This could be showing an example of the damaged/destroyed recorders (those things in the back) being shown side-by-side with undamaged recorders that were donated by the Airlines.

Flight recorders from accidents are the property of the airlines. Though they are often seized as part of crash investigations, Airlines are not in the habit of donating FR's involved in crashes to anyone.


Look again, this is a PICTURE of a PICTURE of what flight recorders look like, a representation -- these are not THE flight recorders.

Once again "Do Over Dylan" doesn't know what he's looking at.

A picture may be worth a thousand words, but for Do Over Dylan anything more than a dozen words is too much reading.

[kookbreaker]

OK, looking at it closer I realise that we are looking at a picture of a picture. Not a display. We have no idea what part of the exhbit he is in or if there are any explanatory displays.

ETA: 60hzxtl is too fast!

[Regnad Kcin]

Hey kids..

Look at those anonymous comments.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147&hl=en

They are on Google...how would I report this?I don't know. But if you can, I'd go right ahead, no delay.

[60hzxtl]

ETA: 60hzxtl is too fast!


Speaking of fast, they sure got that steel back from China fast, now didn't they!

[Brainster]

And why is there such a difference in the quality of the photos themselves? They obviously weren't taken on the same day with the same camera.

I hate sounding like one of them, but this just strikes me as odd.

They're photos of photos. Aren't they also ridiculously small? The data recorder from United Airlines looks like a prescription pill bottle. Or that's the biggest post-it note that 3M makes.

[Regnad Kcin]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1818275&postcount=311

Very well said, gumboot. As usual.

[Regnad Kcin]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.Is it possible to respond to the chap? I, for one, would so enjoy doing so. Though I expect it would not make any difference.

[Johnny Pixels]

Look again, this is a PICTURE of a PICTURE of what flight recorders look like, a representation -- these are not THE flight recorders.

Once again "Do Over Dylan" doesn't know what he's looking at.

A picture may be worth a thousand words, but for Do Over Dylan anything more than a dozen words is too much reading.

:eusa_wall:

Why do CTs always assume that people are so stupid that they blow their own cover all the time.

Larry Silverstein: D'oh! I've just admitted I dynamited WTC7 on live TV
The Government: D'oh! I've just made a museum exhibit of the piece of paper that says I dunnit

[kevin]

Now.... compare the ones taken of of the recorders to the ones taken of the rest of the exhibits. Am I going nuts or does it look like the recorders weren't taken by the same camera at the same place and maybe, possibly (to use a popular CT meme) "planted" by Dylan in the post.

Am I going all woo?

Download the images and see if they left the EXIF data in place. That will identify the camera (and possibly the date) the pictures were taken.

eh, i see it's a picture of a picture. EXIF data wouldn't help.

[The_Fire]

Hey kids..

Look at those anonymous comments.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147&hl=en

They are on Google...how would I report this?
I would start by asking the admins of Google to retain a database backup of the comments. THen I would contact the police. Death threats via internet are still death threats, which means they are punishable by law (at least in denmark), and I would think that a service such as Google would include some sort of IP-logging. Even with an anonymous proxy between you and acidhead, it's possible to track it. Takes a bit more work, but the butthead deserves a right out fright and there's nothing as frightning as a visit from a couple of uniforms informing mr. 1-can-short-of-a-six-pack that he can actually go to jail for stunts like that.

eta: I'm working on a subtitled version for denmark. Ok if I upload it to my google accounts-?

[MarkyX]

Is it possible to respond to the chap? I, for one, would so enjoy doing so. Though I expect it would not make any difference.

It's possible, be he would be wondering why someoen else is replying :)

[MarkyX]

eta: I'm working on a subtitled version for denmark. Ok if I upload it to my google accounts-?

I don't mind at all.

[Belz...]

:eusa_wall:

Why do CTs always assume that people are so stupid that they blow their own cover all the time.

Larry Silverstein: D'oh! I've just admitted I dynamited WTC7 on live TV
The Government: D'oh! I've just made a museum exhibit of the piece of paper that says I dunnit

While simultaneously beign ultra-mega competent at covering up the more elusive evidence.

[kevin]

Put the thermite in a container. Twist the container 90 degrees and attach the bottom of the container to the side of the vertical column.:boggled:

uh no. Thermite burns down because of gravity. If you turn the container 90 degrees it'll still burn down. You might damage one side of the column, but not any more than the real fires did.

[Johnny Pixels]

While simultaneously beign ultra-mega competent at covering up the more elusive evidence.
I once asked on LC whether CTs thought the government was brilliant or incompetent, because they couldn't be both. Most said they thought the government was arrogant, so unsurprisingly I never actually got an answer.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7008&hl=

[Regnad Kcin]

It's possible, be he would be wondering why someoen else is replying :)Well, I'm not saying I will, rather I would.

[Brainster]

:eusa_wall:

Why do CTs always assume that people are so stupid that they blow their own cover all the time.

Larry Silverstein: D'oh! I've just admitted I dynamited WTC7 on live TV
The Government: D'oh! I've just made a museum exhibit of the piece of paper that says I dunnit

United Airlines: D'oh! We forgot to include Mark Bingham on the Passenger Manifest for Flight 93!
NTSB: D'oh! We forgot to investigate the airline crashes of 9-11!
Ted Olson: D'oh! Why did my wife try to smuggle Italian Lira across the Polish-Austria Border?
United Airlines: D'oh! We forgot to retire the tail number of the planes used on 9-11!

[chipmunk stew]

Everything else has Museum signage, and these things have a hand scribbled note? They are definately in some kind of casing, as the reflection and glare shows, but without any singage we have no idea what we are looking at.

ETA: This could be showing an example of the damaged/destroyed recorders (those things in the back) being shown side-by-side with undamaged recorders that were donated by the Airlines.

Flight recorders from accidents are the property of the airlines. Though they are often seized as part of crash investigations, Airlines are not in the habit of donating FR's involved in crashes to anyone.

dylan avery (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showuser=624)
Posted: (http://forums.randi.org/) Aug 4 2006, 05:27 AM




http://67.18.37.14/style_images/1/p_quote.gif (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?act=Post&CODE=06&f=1&t=9604&p=6504094)


Regular Member
http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/pip/admin.gif

Group: Admin
Posts: 242
Member No.: 624
Joined: 17-March 06


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(HotDogBun @ Aug 4 2006, 05:25 AM)Isnt it possible (since this is a public display and all) that these units are simply 'examples' of flight data and voice recorders from american airlines and united, to demostrate what they look like, rather than the ACTUAL ones form the planes that hit the towers?

Is there any more information on that display, such as something claiming they are the ACTUAL flight data and voice recorders??
they weren't the actual ones. they were pictures of the actual ones. but a placard specified them as the black boxes, if memory serves. it's late, ill dig up the high-quality pic tomorrow.

either way, they shouldn't be claiming they are intact if they "weren't found"

Memory might serve better if you had taken a picture of, oh I don't know, the RELEVANT INFORMATION.

[Ramooone]

you can see the piece of tape holding the picture up in the first pic hahahahaha.




For anyone that isn't banned over at LC, please go to this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9604) Dylan's talking about how the Albany 9/11 exhibit has pictures of the FDR and CVR from the flights that hit the towers and how the 9/11 Commission says they were never recovered. Regardless.... give the thread a while to load as he has a bunch of pictures taken from the exhibit.

Now.... compare the ones taken of of the recorders to the ones taken of the rest of the exhibits. Am I going nuts or does it look like the recorders weren't taken by the same camera at the same place and maybe, possibly (to use a popular CT meme) "planted" by Dylan in the post.

Am I going all woo?

[Brainster]

Hey kids..

Look at those anonymous comments.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147&hl=en

They are on Google...how would I report this?

Contact the FBI, Mark.

[Hellbound]

uh no. Thermite burns down because of gravity. If you turn the container 90 degrees it'll still burn down. You might damage one side of the column, but not any more than the real fires did.

Psssst! I think that was sarcasm you were responding to!

:D

A bit on thermite:

Thermite is relatively stable, and takes a good amount of heat to ignite. However, remote detonation would not be that difficult. A Potassium Chlorate/Sugar mixture can reach a temperature high enough to ignite the thermite/thermate, and can itself be easily ignited.

The big problems are the residue (large amounts of aluminum oxide and iron slag around cuts--both from the thermite/ate and the cut steel, smaller amount of barium compunds, and trace amounts of sulpher oxides, as it only makes up about 2% of the mix), the containers used to hold the thermite against the vertical columns so it would cut (would have to be some type of ceramic or composite), and the existence of melted steel columns (thermite would not leave a smooth, clean cut, unless it was set up in some type of pressure sprayer, which goes back to where are the remains of that. Not to mention that a cutting torch would be easier to set up and as or more effective, even if operating remotely).

[Johnny Pixels]

Contact the FBI, Mark.

I can just imagine the fuss if the FBI turned up on a CT kid's doorstep. That's not to say that Mark shouldn't, just as long as someone gets a video of the kids reaction when the suits turn up in sunglasses in connection with 9/11.

[Blackadder_no]

Another CT brainiac speaks:

The black boxes don't exist. Their entire meaning was pointless. GHow could they record the cockpit if they're at the tail section of the plane?

:boggled:

[chipmunk stew]

Another CT brainiac speaks:

The black boxes don't exist. Their entire meaning was pointless. GHow could they record the cockpit if they're at the tail section of the plane?

:boggled:
Besides, these are orange, not black!

Welcome to JREF, Blackadder_no!

[kookbreaker]

Memory might serve better if you had taken a picture of, oh I don't know, the RELEVANT INFORMATION.

Seriously. What is going on in that kids head? 'Oh look! Breakthrough information right here in the museum! Should I shoot everything about it or around it?! Nah. I'll just take a blurry photo and hope I remember all this stuff'.

[rikzilla]

Well now I've seen it all. Over at the Brit 9/11 nutter site someone posted a pic of the infamous "squib" during the collapse with a great big "WHAT IS THIS" pointing at it. I told them this: (http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2912&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75)

Funny that. But all theories are not equal. My theory posits the existance of vents and machine rooms in buildings....(not very exciting though is it?) ...and then your theory posits the existance of a massive government conspiracy guilty of placing demo charges in the building. (wow, exciting stuff no!!??)

My theory requires: Vents and machine rooms to exist,..and air pressure.. :yawn: No controversy there I'd guess...even you would have to agree that 1. the buildings had vents and machine rooms...and 2. the collapse pushed air ahead of it.

Your theory requires:


Expert demo techs working in secret.
Explosives, det cord, blasting caps,..etc...
Thousands of everyday people not noticing the demo techs.
Drone planes to disguise the demolition.
More techs to create the drone conversion.
NORAD to "stand down"
hundreds or more to keep their mouths shut. etc...etc...



That's just a partial list...there's also much to go wrong. The planes impacts could easily damage the detcords and primer connections. The demo charges might be found in the wreckage...and for what gain? To attack Iraq? By using Saudi patsies??

Insanity...that's the word for your theory.

What I got in return was a couple days of silence and then this:
scubadiver wrote:
Jay Ref wrote:

As I said before...my theory requires that there be a machine room, vent, and air pressure.

All of which obviously existed.



"Obviously"?

This dubious assumption doesn't support the official story very well does it?

So now they are heading down the road to a world where buildings don't have machine rooms or vents...but they do have invisible CD charges set...

Sheesh! These guys live in a comic-book world!
-z

[brumsen]

So I'll ask you - what exactly do you think is wrong w/ the official NIST reports?
1) They have not studied / modeled the collapses themselves, but truncated the timeline at the onset of collapse, assuming that total collapse was then inevitable; hence the discussion in eg Gordon Ross's paper;
2) They say that they have not found any evidence corroborating alternative hypotheses such as planted explosives, without actually having researched those hypotheses (well, at least they haven't written up such research)

Will you need page numbers or will this do?

[T.A.M.]

Anybody contact Albany Museum to find out what the deal is on the recorder pictures. Were they the missing ones from 11 and 175, or just replicas made to look like it, or were they photos of 77 and 93, used to represent the recorders. Only the caretakers of the museum would know.

[realitybites]

The blackbox thing doesn't appear to be as damning as I'd imagine. Both Avery's thread in the Investigate 9/11 section and the one I started in the Skeptics are kinda quiet.

[T.A.M.]

probably they are excited yet fearful at the same time.

If they are the recorders, then they might contain data supporting the debunkers...If they are not the recorders, than it is just more "bullcrap" supposed evidence that means nothing...

I can see why for now they are hush hush...

[chacal]

The blackbox thing doesn't appear to be as damning as I'd imagine. Both Avery's thread in the Investigate 9/11 section and the one I started in the Skeptics are kinda quiet.

Loose Change Final Cut is delayed and seems like Avery is grasping for staws. This blackbox thing is more silly than the truck bomb thing they had some time ago. They'd have to come up with something better to keep their fan base together.

good work guys:)

[negativ]

Beat 'em up with your luggage, boy. See if that works.

Didn't you know? The Neo-Cons had a plan as early as 1995 called Operation Samsonite to release 50,000 genetically engineered western lowland gorillas armed with luggage made by (OMG GET THIS!) Zero Haliburton into the NYC subway system, in order to arouse anti-African sentiment and provide a mandate for re-instituting slavery and also invading Somalia.

DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE CATACLYSMIC DESTRUCTIVE POWER OF LUGGAGE.

[Hutch]

Seriously. What is going on in that kids head? 'Oh look! Breakthrough information right here in the museum! Should I shoot everything about it or around it?! Nah. I'll just take a blurry photo and hope I remember all this stuff'.

Just asked about the same thing you and others have postulated on the thread. We'll evaluate Mr. Averys' reply-or not.

Edited to add: Well, his reply is to insult me and then post my Internet ID, which shows I work for the US GOvernment (something I never hid). I thnk my reply to him (which I will post here) will probably signal the end of my days at LC.

Ah, Mr. Avery, I find your reply to a question (pointed, mind you, but still civil) is to fling an insult and then directly post my IP information just to make the point (which I have never disguised, BTW) that I work for the US Government, so that you can spread avoid answering my justifiable point by instead trying to intimidate me.

Come to think of it, that sounds just like something a Government Conspiracy would do to try and divert attention from it's own errors of ommission. Sauce for the goose, I believe.

In the end, Mr. Avery, you have shown yourself to be without Honor. Or even the barest concept of Honor.

And without Honor, you aren't very much at all.

[twinstead]

Anybody contact Albany Museum to find out what the deal is on the recorder pictures. Were they the missing ones from 11 and 175, or just replicas made to look like it, or were they photos of 77 and 93, used to represent the recorders. Only the caretakers of the museum would know.

I suspect it's too late. If they respond that they are indeed replicas, they will be accused of being part of the "cover up". If they respond that they have no pictures of any flight recorders, they will be accused of hastily removing them due to the "brilliant investigations" of Loose Change.

You can't win with crazy people.

[jhunter1163]

Quoted from Negativ:

DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE CATACLYSMIC DESTRUCTIVE POWER OF LUGGAGE.

Who needs a JDAM when you've got the J-SAM?

[Johnny Pixels]

I've been a bit slow on this, but in this thread a long time ago I was talking to JohnDoeX about aeroplanes:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6884&view=findpost&p=5652277

He told me (in the post linked to) that taking off from Runway 22 at LGA (That's La Guardia to a thicky like me) takes you directly to the WTC if you don't climb or turn out of it.

I actually got around to checking his story, and found that a direct line drawn through runway 22 takes you...on a path around 3 miles away from the WTC.

No wonder he's not flying if he wanders 3 miles off course, 6 miles from the airport.

[Johnny Pixels]

Just asked about the same thing you and others have postulated on the thread. We'll evaluate Mr. Averys' reply-or not.

Turns out you're a shill for posting from a DoD NIC. God help any whistleblowers they might find in the DoD...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'm not sure about this one, but I'll just float it:
what about the Pentagon body parts. There's a radio interview playing with Avery saying the government has shown no evidence that there were bodies in the Pentagon. The videos show what I believe to be pictures used as exhibits in Moussaoui's trial. Question: is the radio interview a recording from before or after that trial? It's not clear, but important - if that evidence was not available at the time of the interview, Avery could hardly be accused of lying, but it is implied here that he did.

I've been thinking on this. Bodies were identified via DNA, dental records, etc way prior to the Moussaoui evidence being released. The Moussaoui photos are by far the most dramatic evidence, and the easiest to use in the format in question. The Moussaoui photos are not, however, the first, nor the be-all end-all, of the evidence. From what I was able to find, the Avery interview, or maybe it was the Berman interview, coincided with the release of LC2, well after the victim identification and such.

And, frankly, if that is the best example you can provide for your claim of character assassination, it is a weak case.

[realitybites]

I've been a bit slow on this, but in this thread a long time ago I was talking to JohnDoeX about aeroplanes:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6884&view=findpost&p=5652277

He told me (in the post linked to) that taking off from Runway 22 at LGA (That's La Guardia to a thicky like me) takes you directly to the WTC if you don't climb or turn out of it.

I actually got around to checking his story, and found that a direct line drawn through runway 22 takes you...on a path around 3 miles away from the WTC.

No wonder he's not flying if he wanders 3 miles off course, 6 miles from the airport.
... You wouldn't even fly over Manhattan....

[juryjone]

OK then.


I did not mean the NIST report, since that's just about the collapses; nor even the 9/11 commission report. I meant US foreign policy since 9/11, which has been based on a certain picture of "the enemy".
Agreed, though, that it's not quite as simple as something that could boil down to "islam is the enemy".

brumsen,

I was going to reply in a PM since the thread has moved on so far since you replied to my post, but I thought that would be unfair to you. I accused you of not answering questions in a rather terse way and you answered with civility. I wanted everyone to know how much I appreciate that. I apologize for my "hectoring" tone.

And then, you had to go and (somewhat) agree with me! Boy, do I feel like a heel!

[60hzxtl]

Loose Change Final Cut is delayed and seems like Avery is grasping for staws. This blackbox thing is more silly than the truck bomb thing they had some time ago. They'd have to come up with something better to keep their fan base together.

good work guys:)


Welcome Chacal,

Funny how the Big Tower of Loose Change is collapsing, because Do Over Dylan and company have a lot of little fires to put out!

His "evidence" has long since been proven to be tripe, now he is going for "interviews" with the Willy Rodriguez' and the Bob Pugh's et al, and the New Final Finished at last, airtight, Loose Change will be a series of "probing" interviews, (uh-oh, leave out the fireman at St. Marks, Dylan, he really doesn't say anything, and he shoots a hole in the 'gag order' b.s.) and a statement that will replace "we're just asking questions" to the effect that We're just giving a voice to the people that the media have ignored (insert reason here)

Final Cut will be a yawner. They'll be giving that one away too.

[realitybites]

Turns out you're a shill for posting from a DoD NIC. God help any whistleblowers they might find in the DoD...
Turns out he publicly posted the IP again. Took a screenshot of it.

Can't wait for the bump in salary I'll get for this one from the MIB.

[chacal]

This maybe old news but in the documentary film "Flight 93, the flight that fought back" there is an interview of Mark Binghams mother and she comments on why Mark might have used he's full name when calling her.

Once and a while he'd say that, he'd call up and... he was a young business man and used to introduce him self as Mark Bingham and he was trying to be strong and lewel headed and... stricly business "mom this is Mark Bingham"

I guess the conspiracy theorist do not watch discovery because when this Fetzer guy makes fun of that phone call the crowd just applauds... amazing.

[negativ]

Is it really possible to get a degree in Telecommunications without being able to spell properly?
TV and radio.

[60hzxtl]

Looks like Dylan is going to need another Do Over Poor guy, once again he had no clue what he was looking at!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9604&st=30

[kevin]

Psssst! I think that was sarcasm you were responding to!

this dawned on me after i posted. oh well, it's been a bad week, or as a co-worker told me yesterday "you sure are grumpy".

I need to move to a neighborhood with more kids so I can yell at them to get off the lawn.

[Belz...]

I once asked on LC whether CTs thought the government was brilliant or incompetent, because they couldn't be both. Most said they thought the government was arrogant, so unsurprisingly I never actually got an answer.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7008&hl=

Actually, what they're saying is that the government is so evil and arrogant that they think any story, no matter how preposterous, will be believed. This way they can circumvent the obvious genius-moron problem by simply claiming that they didn't care. It explains the "obvious" evidence, as well as the presence of said evidence.

Also, I like how they see everybody else as sheep that will believe anything the government says (never mind that a lot of posters are from outside the US.) It's just further confirmation of their need for self-gratification and social status. They are in the know. They know something you don't.

[Regnad Kcin]

Looks like Dylan is going to need another Do Over Poor guy, once again he had no clue what he was looking at!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9604&st=30...seriously, are you that desperate that you'll turn anything into a personal attack?Says the guy whose middle name is Mock-Deride-Belittle.

[Belz...]

Another CT brainiac speaks:

The black boxes don't exist. Their entire meaning was pointless. GHow could they record the cockpit if they're at the tail section of the plane?

:boggled:

This one wins the prize for most technologically-impaired person this month.

[kookbreaker]

Didn't they already get warned about posting personal info like IP addresses?

[Belz...]

1) They have not studied / modeled the collapses themselves, but truncated the timeline at the onset of collapse, assuming that total collapse was then inevitable; hence the discussion in eg Gordon Ross's paper;

Would you be happy if they built a full-scale WTC complex and rammed planes into #1 and #2 and see what happens ?

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, Belz, remember we had a poster who pretty much suggested nothing short of such an effort would be satisfactory.

[realitybites]

Well, Belz, remember we had a poster who pretty much suggested nothing short of such an effort would be satisfactory.
And once it collapsed again, the theories of it being constructed with pre-fab demo charges would start up and 'round and 'round we go.

[60hzxtl]

Didn't they already get warned about posting personal info like IP addresses?


You're "just asking questions" right?

Wouldn't it be just awful if the forum got shut down because of the sins of the patron saint, founder of the cult, Do Over Dylan Avery.

Oh, wait, it would be government suppression, and censorship.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Turns out he publicly posted the IP again. Took a screenshot of it.

Can't wait for the bump in salary I'll get for this one from the MIB.

Just remember, when you report it, don't post the screenshot of the report unless you are planning on not visiting that forum again.

[Johnny Pixels]

So the magic pictures, are in fact a photo of a photo of examples of the black boxes recorders found in the two airlines aircraft, to show what they should look like, and then the mangled lumps behind them, and on either side of the display board, are in fact what they did find. Or am I looking at this wrong?

What is the official line on what was recovered from the WTC? From the pictures I gather that voice recorders for both aircraft were found, but severely damaged.

[azazal]

So the magic pictures, are in fact a photo of a photo of examples of the black boxes recorders found in the two airlines aircraft, to show what they should look like, and then the mangled lumps behind them, and on either side of the display board, are in fact what they did find. Or am I looking at this wrong?

What is the official line on what was recovered from the WTC? From the pictures I gather that voice recorders for both aircraft were found, but severely damaged.


My understanding was that no flight recorders were found ot WTC, but I could be wrong. Far some reason my gut feel is that the pictures show what fligbht recorders should look like, and what ones that were severly damaged in other crashes and have been recovered look like. This in turn is used to show just how much damage and destruction occured that day, enought that the nearly indistructable black boxes were wiped out.

Is there anyone from here in Albany that can get some other pics of the display? I'm not saying that anything was left out or anything like that, but :rolleyes:

[Belz...]

Well, Belz, remember we had a poster who pretty much suggested nothing short of such an effort would be satisfactory

Was that christophera ?

Oh, that's right. We'd have to build it with a concrete core, this time.

[Belz...]

So the magic pictures, are in fact a photo of a photo of examples of the black boxes recorders found in the two airlines aircraft, to show what they should look like, and then the mangled lumps behind them, and on either side of the display board, are in fact what they did find. Or am I looking at this wrong?

What is the official line on what was recovered from the WTC? From the pictures I gather that voice recorders for both aircraft were found, but severely damaged.

I thought those were from flight 93...

[chipmunk stew]

Just asked about the same thing you and others have postulated on the thread. We'll evaluate Mr. Averys' reply-or not.

Edited to add: Well, his reply is to insult me and then post my Internet ID, which shows I work for the US GOvernment (something I never hid). I thnk my reply to him (which I will post here) will probably signal the end of my days at LC.
JEEzus! Are they looking to be shut down, or what? They already got reported once for posting IP info. You should report them again.

[brumsen]

Would you be happy if they built a full-scale WTC complex and rammed planes into #1 and #2 and see what happens ?
Very Funny :rolleyes:

How about if they had done the kind of work that Gordon Ross, Frank Greening and so on have been doing, or trying to do. That would have been important and useful.

[chipmunk stew]

I suspect it's too late. If they respond that they are indeed replicas, they will be accused of being part of the "cover up". If they respond that they have no pictures of any flight recorders, they will be accused of hastily removing them due to the "brilliant investigations" of Loose Change.

You can't win with crazy people.
Well let's wait to see these "hi-res" pictures....of pictures.:rolleyes:

[Hellbound]

Just one thing to point out. "FLight recorder" and "Voice recorder" are two seperate devices. Every plane has two black boxes. The flight recorder records all the control commands and monitors and so on and so forth. It's essentially a "keystroke logger" for the aircraft controls and sensors. The Voice recorder is the familiar voice loop from the cockpit.

I dunno how this figures into things, but thought I'd put that out there. The two are often confused, or assumed to be in a single box.

[Dog Town]

This is a post from my thread, "Dylan and the Scholars In Their Own Words"( aka. Marks Denier Flick) on ATS

quote: ( Me)
No....just not the ones being espoused here. There is nothing wrong with understanding, who it is you put your "faith" in. Is there? What are you so afraid of? Dylan and crew are disssshonest. Watch the VIDEO? What do you think?


( Moon Unit)
"Markyx the author of this video you posted is exposed and a liar.

.colbertnation.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=33000#33000

Stop spreading disinfo on forums and use your common sense. 9/11 was an inside job.""

( ME)
The best part here is that, this kid is all MOON BAT over Mark. He has seen you lie! Man you are getting famous among the pimple crowd.You should get you a commercial with P'diddy,or what ever he calls himself these days.
But on a more comical note, go view this thread , it's short but batty!

[Brainster]

I will be on with Rob Breakenridge of AM 770, CHQR tonight at 10:05 PM Eastern Time. For those of you not fortunate enough to live in Calgary, you can listen in live here (http://www.am770chqr.com/). We will be taking callers. The call-in numbers are 1-800-563-7770, or 403-974-8255. I'm hoping that Dylan sees this either here or on the blog and calls in.

[T.A.M.]

I do not live in Calgary, but I wish you well from the other side of Canada.

This JohnDoeX guy is such and obnoxious creep.

The latest over their is the "official debate"

The post started with talk of 2 structural engineers offering their time to a private thread to debate with Stephen Jones over the fall of the WTCs. There never was a final decision given on it. But quickly it turned to a rouse of the "official" debate, where the scholars have posted a challenge to an open debate.

I REALLY WISH SOME QUALIFIED STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS ETC...WOULD TAKE THEM UP ON THEIR CHALLENGE TO PUT THESE F&*KING A&*HOLES IN THEIR PLACE ONCE AND FOR ALL.

I mean can you see the little keebler lady versus the MIT panel in a debate about the WTCs coming down. OR top members of ASCE versus little Steven Jones in a debate over the use of Thermite.

I wish someone would set this thing up!!!

[chipmunk stew]

Anyone happen to catch Dylan's interview last night? I'm curious if he's gotten any more cautious about what he says.
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/08/gotta-run.html

Dylan said "Show went okay, until he started attacking me. No biggie. :D"

I'm not surprised, seeing as how (according to the time slot he said he was to appear on) he was interviewed by this guy:
http://thenaturaltruth.blogspot.com/2006/08/36-of-americans-believe-this.html

[chipmunk stew]

I do not live in Calgary, but I wish you well from the other side of Canada.

This JohnDoeX guy is such and obnoxious creep.

The latest over their is the "official debate"

The post started with talk of 2 structural engineers offering their time to a private thread to debate with Stephen Jones over the fall of the WTCs. There never was a final decision given on it. But quickly it turned to a rouse of the "official" debate, where the scholars have posted a challenge to an open debate.

I REALLY WISH SOME QUALIFIED STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS ETC...WOULD TAKE THEM UP ON THEIR CHALLENGE TO PUT THESE F&*KING A&*HOLES IN THEIR PLACE ONCE AND FOR ALL.

I mean can you see the little keebler lady versus the MIT panel in a debate about the WTCs coming down. OR top members of ASCE versus little Steven Jones in a debate over the use of Thermite.

I wish someone would set this thing up!!!
I wonder how open the challenge really is. Will they only accept NIST/gov't people listed in their challenge, or would they settle for proxies. If so, we should absolutely try to recruit a panel.

edit: We may have to hold our noses and work with johndoeX or someone else from the "other side" to liaison with the Scholars.

[Johnny Pixels]

Anyone happen to catch Dylan's interview last night? I'm curious if he's gotten any more cautious about what he says.
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/08/gotta-run.html

Dylan said "Show went okay, until he started attacking me. No biggie. :D"

I'm not surprised, seeing as how (according to the time slot he said he was to appear on) he was interviewed by this guy:
http://thenaturaltruth.blogspot.com/2006/08/36-of-americans-believe-this.html

16% of Americans believe in the controlled demo theory?

That's 47 million people!

[MarkyX]

Contact the FBI, Mark.

How?

I also got another email from anonymous server called hushmail.com

killmark@hushmail.com

we the people find you GUILTY

GUILTY AND SENTENCED
to
DEATH

DEATH
DEAD

YOU ARE NOW DEAD
the walking dead

die
we are watching you die

Anyone know the right contacts? I want to avoid giving my phone number or contacts.

[Brainster]

16% of Americans believe in the controlled demo theory?

That's 47 million people!

It's all in the phrasing. Suppose I ask you, "Some people have claimed that the World Trade Center Towers were brought down by controlled demolition. Do you agree or disagree?"

Well, you would agree that some people have claimed that, right? And even if I ask "Do you agree or disagree with them?" some people will still say they agree because they're agreeable people, or they didn't catch the last two words.

If, on the other hand, I were to ask, "What caused the World Trade Center towers to collapse?" I suspect that the percentage mentioning controlled demolition on their own would be very, very low.

[Hutch]

well, loonybin and Dylan both agree, the Albany thread was a dead-end.

And I got an apology from Mr. Avery and the posting of my ID deleted.

The young man may yet have a capacity for learning. The hard way, I admit, but learning.

We shall see.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9604&st=90#entry6512770

See bottom of Page 4...

[The_Fire]

How?


Theres a list of their official site:
http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm

This idiot is begging for it.

ETA: Hushmail, huh? I believe those guys track ip's as well....

[Belz...]

Very Funny :rolleyes:

How about if they had done the kind of work that Gordon Ross, Frank Greening and so on have been doing, or trying to do. That would have been important and useful.

Because, my very inquisitive friend, they didn't need to. Only someone ignorant of the physics involved would call the "official" story into question and demand such a simulation be done.

[Brainster]

How?

I also got another email from anonymous server called hushmail.com

Anyone know the right contacts? I want to avoid giving my phone number or contacts.

Are you in the US? If you're north of the border, the probable place to start is with the RCMP.

Re: The phone and contact information, you have to decide on that; I don't think they'll investigate without it. The good news is that Hushmail is headquartered in BC, so they will cooperate with BC authorities (https://www.hushmail.com/help-faqs?PHPSESSID=4cd8e197b166a586a79229af65ff8875&#messagesubponaed). You could also contact them about the abuse, although they require a name and phone number as well.

[Belz...]

How?

I also got another email from anonymous server called hushmail.com

Anyone know the right contacts? I want to avoid giving my phone number or contacts.

That's very interesting hate mail you get there, Mark. Personally, I don't understand what gets these people to that point. What the hell did you do to them that you didn't tell us ?

[brumsen]

Because, my very inquisitive friend, they didn't need to. Only someone ignorant of the physics involved would call the "official" story into question and demand such a simulation be done.
As if that's going to impress me. The usual suggestion that I'm ignorant if I question this.

First, I did not demand a simulation of the collapse. I asked for a proof that the assumption that once the onset of collapse started (NISTs words) it was inevitable that it continue, is true. That need not be done by means of a simulation.

Second: if that was so obvious, then why all the discussion on Ross' and Greening's papers? It is not obvious, which is a good reason why NIST should have investigated beyond the onset and not truncated the timeline.

ETA: why do you call me "very inquisitive"? I was merely responding to a question that WildCat posed.

[Dog Town]

As if that's going to impress me. The usual suggestion that I'm ignorant if I question this.

First, I did not demand a simulation of the collapse. I asked for a proof that the assumption that once the onset of collapse started (NISTs words) it was inevitable that it continue, is true. That need not be done by means of a simulation.

Second: if that was so obvious, then why all the discussion on Ross' and Greening's papers? It is not obvious, which is a good reason why NIST should have investigated beyond the onset and not truncated the timeline.

Have we found a low IQ version of Boggle? Boggle is that you pretending to be less than G.E.D. worthy? IMHO!
Two more posts till URL posting allowed! Yeah!

Please remain civil. This is a forum for discussion, not abuse.

[MarkyX]

That's very interesting hate mail you get there, Mark. Personally, I don't understand what gets these people to that point. What the hell did you do to them that you didn't tell us ?

It's because I hit the mainstream, to some extent.

The people who believe these theories tend to be lousy readers or don't explore their optiion. But holy crap, if it's in video format, then they are willing to listen.

I already did Screw Loose Change, which caused a dent into the community along with some praises from firefighters and police officers on 9/11, thanking me for pointing the facts to some family members victims saying "I never knew that!". I got more then just hate mail.

I didn't want to repeat the same stuff, since with facts, the truth movement is already dead. The only people remaining in the movement are people for political agenda: Alex Jones' right wing libertarian, to Dylan Avery's "Chomsky is my HERO" political side. How do they push their agenda? Character assassination in video format.

So I'm merely fighting fire with fire, only using their own words instead of making stuff up, and it's having a great impact so far.

[The_Fire]

That's very interesting hate mail you get there, Mark. Personally, I don't understand what gets these people to that point. What the hell did you do to them that you didn't tell us ?


Thats easy: I call it the "Broken Toy" syndrom. It works basically like this:

*Clears throat and starts speaking just like Stephen Fry from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy*

Person A have a toy (in this case the belief in Saint Avery)

Person B decides to break said toy (in this case show what a dickwad mentioned Saint Avery is and how much of an ilusion his "documentary" is)

Person A starts bawling and stamping his wittle feet in the ground while demanding that the "Big Mean Person A" puts the toy back together. (In this case Person B retracting the truth).

Person B, whom actually lives on planet Earth with his feet firmly anchored in this little thing we like to call "Reality", of cause denies this.

Person A, whom probably still have pimples, lives in his mothers basement and lack the proper problemsolving skills for some obscure reason, starts stamping those cute little feet even harder in the ground and refuses to see that his toy were in reality an illusion which are better of destroyed and decides to call his Big Brothe with the Tommygun. ("We the people").

Unfortunately Big Brother is busy, probably burning cross's and "Sieg Heilen" at some gathering constructed to inflate Big Brothers head even more, so Person A decides to try it himself, unfortunately unmasking himself as a person with really big reality problems as Person A doesn't expect Person B to actually have a backbone and better problemsolving skills (Here that would be contemplating what to do and wether or not to involve the Feds etc.)

Now Person A is in a bind since he doesn't have one iota of a clue about what to do while Person B can sit down with a nice cold one in complete reasurance that Person A will never gather the nescessary braincells to carry though the threats due to Persons A's brain being stuck on "Temper Tantrum" like a hamster stuck in a hamster wheel.

Just like a child in a sandbox with a broke toy keeps carrying on untill a responsible adult breaks though the repetitions of "You big Bad Meanie" by promising a new, more shining toy ( in this case: A new CT).

[T.A.M.]

I would think you could contact the police, or you could post what happened over at LC, and demand a public apology, or that if you don't get one, you will be going to the authorities, and will procecute them to the fullest extent of the law.

[60hzxtl]

well, loonybin and Dylan both agree, the Albany thread was a dead-end.

And I got an apology from Mr. Avery and the posting of my ID deleted.

The young man may yet have a capacity for learning. The hard way, I admit, but learning.

We shall see.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9604&st=90#entry6512770

See bottom of Page 4...

Now, even the title of the thread has changed!

WTC Boxes Not Found

Do-Over Do Over!

[realitybites]

Now, even the title of the thread has changed!

WTC Boxes Not Found

Do-Over Do Over!
I subtly pointed out to him in my last post in that thread how easily this could've been checked. With any luck, one or two lurkers over there might see how quick Dylan tends to jump the gun with "evidence" and draw their own conclusions as to how that might've effected any 'documentaries' he's released.

[brumsen]

Have we found a low IQ version of Boggle? Boggle is that you pretending to be less than G.E.D. worthy? IMHO!
Two more posts till URL posting allowed! Yeah!
Look, Dog Town... I can do without the cryptic insults, OK?

[60hzxtl]

I subtly pointed out to him in my last post in that thread how easily this could've been checked. With any luck, one or two lurkers over there might see how quick Dylan tends to jump the gun with "evidence" and draw their own conclusions as to how that might've effected any 'documentaries' he's released.


And neither "evidence" out of context is evidence, nor history out of context is history.

This is probably the closest that Dylan has ever been to any real parts of the WTC. He didn't happen to notice that the poster was in the "recovery" section - it was a guide posted to show the police who were sifting through the rubble, (you remember the rubble, the 'evidence' that was hustled away and sold?) at Great Kills - what to look for should they spot a 'black box'.

So Dylan was caught shooting his wad instead of the load, and in doing so, we've seen that the 'evidence of a crime' that was rushed out of there, truly was examined for clues. Just not in situ.

Good days work guys.

Final Cut is delayed (and shortened) again!

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, Belz, remember we had a poster who pretty much suggested nothing short of such an effort would be satisfactory.Was that christophera ?

Oh, that's right. We'd have to build it with a concrete core, this time.I don't think it was him, though it was, like him, not a forum regular. I'm fairly certain anyway.

Speaking of which, there's not one newcomer to the JREF who has shown any more than the most minor capacity for modification of their pre-conceived notions in the couple months since this issue has blossomed. By my guess we've seen somewhere on the order of two-dozen or so, each proven wrong time and time again. And no word of concession or admission that they were mistaken, out of their depth, or misled.

The ego is a powerful force. And at the same time fragile as can be.

[MarkyX]

I would think you could contact the police, or you could post what happened over at LC, and demand a public apology, or that if you don't get one, you will be going to the authorities, and will procecute them to the fullest extent of the law.

I already sent something to the FBI, RCMP, and the HushMail company.

[Hutch]

BTW, Happy Birthday, Regnad!!

Press on.

[Hellbound]

BTW, Happy Birthday, Regnad!!

Press on.

DItto.

DId anyone remember to fill out the required NWO/government shill celebratory birthing anniversiary celebration request forms?

:D

[T.A.M.]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9648

Looks like they've begun a MarkyX Lies site. Seems you are becoming a celebrity worthy of your own thread over there man.

[Gravy]

FLASH

From the horse's ah, horse's ahhhhhh -mouth re: 9/11 in NYC 2006

"rest assured, we'll be handing out LC2. LC:FC has been delayed."

:)

[defaultdotxbe]

hmm, title says markyx, thread says mark roberts, wonder if they realize they are 2 different people

[DavidJames]

hmm, title says markyx, thread says mark roberts, wonder if they realize they are 2 different peopleRemember, these are people who made some brilliant assumptions about a couple of guys names Chertoff.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I will be on with Rob Breakenridge of AM 770, CHQR tonight at 10:05 PM Eastern Time. For those of you not fortunate enough to live in Calgary, you can listen in live here (http://www.am770chqr.com/). We will be taking callers. The call-in numbers are 1-800-563-7770, or 403-974-8255. I'm hoping that Dylan sees this either here or on the blog and calls in.

I'm even MORE fortunate, I live in Edmonton. ;)

I've checked out the link, it works from up here. Not sure if it'll carry outside Alberta though.

[T.A.M.]

Could someone please record and post the stream for those of us not able to hear it?

[Dog Town]

Looking at that Zany Colbert Board is soo kookie. The idiot ranting on MarkyX seems certain he is Mark Roberts. Man that kid is off the charts crazy. I think he must be seeing a whole team of shrinks. Maybe one of them will ask him to stay on his meds next time.

Happy B Day you cute puppy you!

[T.A.M.]

So apparently now JDX and crew are locking threads simply because they are tired of arguing with Debunkers

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9536&st=60

At least he is honest about his fascism

[Gravy]

Once again "Do Over Dylan" doesn't know what he's looking at.

I'm not a golfer, but "Mulligan Avery" strikes me a an apt title. (A Mulligan in golf is a second chance at a bad shot.)

[Gravy]

I've been a bit slow on this, but in this thread a long time ago I was talking to JohnDoeX about aeroplanes:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6884&view=findpost&p=5652277

He told me (in the post linked to) that taking off from Runway 22 at LGA (That's La Guardia to a thicky like me) takes you directly to the WTC if you don't climb or turn out of it.

I actually got around to checking his story, and found that a direct line drawn through runway 22 takes you...on a path around 3 miles away from the WTC.

No wonder he's not flying if he wanders 3 miles off course, 6 miles from the airport.
That's the best analogy for the truth movement I've seen, JP. "3 miles off course, 6 miles from the airport."

[apathoid]

So apparently now JDX and crew are locking threads simply because they are tired of arguing with Debunkers

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9536&st=60

At least he is honest about his fascism
He also locked down the Hani Hanjour thread, thats the one where the Aussie Flying Ninjas thouroughly and completely destroyed him.

I love how he tries to "circle the wagons" by making sure he gets the last word in before he locks the thread down.

There were 6 people??? holy cow... i thought it was only 1.

Not a chance...Weight and balance buddy.

Weight and balance? I never knew gate agents computed that, the dispatch paperwork and manifest are two entirely different animals.
He also went on about how flights would be booked heavily on a Tuesday AM flight. I actually was ready to take some sceen caps of my travel planner(probably against company policy, so maybe its better that I didnt) that clearly shows that East-West transcon flights have low yields on Tuesday early AM runs..they usually depart with 80-150 seats open, even during summer!
Then he goes on about midday flights being typically more open than early morning flights, again wrong!
That guy is a piece of work, and Billzilla has him pegged. He's probably legally retarded. That or he is puposely misleading with his "expertise" in aviation. He also threatened to ban me and my warning automatically jumped from 0-100%

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

hmm, title says markyx, thread says mark roberts, wonder if they realize they are 2 different people

Why would they? They don't fact check, or find corroborating evidence for anything else they want to believe.

[MarkyX]

hmm, title says markyx, thread says mark roberts, wonder if they realize they are 2 different people

Sorry Mr. Roberts, but I have beaten you in terms of "Pissing off CTers"

This is so much fun. I'm like a high school girl in the backstage of a N'Sync and Backstreet Boys crossover concert.

[Gravy]

Sorry Mr. Roberts, but I have beaten you in terms of "Pissing off CTers"
Oh, yeah? Dylan Avery says my name isn't Mark Roberts. So how do you know I'm not you? Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you...you clown assassin!

[Brainster]

Oh, yeah? Dylan Avery says my name isn't Mark Roberts. So how do you know I'm not you? Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you clown assassin!

Now, now, boys! Dylan hates you both equally!

[chipmunk stew]

Hey guys! I have a cousin named Mark, and I bet Dylan wouldn't like him very much! ...Guys? :boxedin:

[Abbyas]

Hey guys! I have a cousin named Mark, and I bet Dylan wouldn't like him very much! ...Guys?

My name's Mark, too!

Well, it's Markabby, and the M, the first A, the R and the K are silent.

[T.A.M.]

JohnDoeX reminds me of the kid at elementary school, who would always say,

"You can't play because its mine, and what I say goes."

Banning people because they are arguing against the LC theories on the LC "Skeptics" forum...come on!! his excuse, is that he is bored of reading the same things over and over...oh yes there is a democratic even handed reason to ban people.

JohnDoeX is a fraud, and idiot, and an *******!!

[Dog Town]

Damn, MarkyX For President?
You sure have the name recognition! Problem is, the tin foil hat brigade don't leave their basements. Maybe for, "LC FC the Last Insult", but I doubt much else. Over at ATS I posted the Denier flick, woo is it popular.Here is a brainiac response;

( Tin Hat)
----"This guy Markyx is a nutjob. He used Dylans first interview completely out of context to make people believe he was mocking the passengers when in fact he was actually mocking the government.

Dylan and Co. have talked to at least 10 of markyx's friends who all have watched loose change and want to know where their best friend went. (out of curiosity, not anger)

So the question is why is it you are here trying to do the same as this dishonest Markyx shill? "-----

Are your best friends aware you are missing? I'll post the thread later,it only gets better! You are my current Hero MI!!!

Last post before URL worthy. Kick Ass!

[defaultdotxbe]

My name's Mark, too!

Well, it's Markabby, and the M, the first A, the R and the K are silent.
mar kabby? so your a cabbie? you must be an arab, and therefore a terrorist!

Banning people because they are arguing against the LC theories on the LC "Skeptics" forum...come on!! his excuse, is that he is bored of reading the same things over and over...oh yes there is a democratic even handed reason to ban people.
thats because LC's "skeptics" forums are more like re-education forums, designed to concentrate their BS propaganda towards anyone who might be leaning away from a CD, just look at the pinned topics there

[Gravy]

1) They have not studied / modeled the collapses themselves, but truncated the timeline at the onset of collapse, assuming that total collapse was then inevitable; hence the discussion in eg Gordon Ross's paper;

Brumsen, this issue has come up on your forum a couple of times. NIST said they didn't include an analysis of post-collapse initiation events in their final report. I'm not aware that anyone at NIST said they didn't study the whole collapse. Perhaps they didn't. Are you aware of anyone at NIST making such a statement, or that anyone has even asked them?

Most of the discussion of the papers by Gordon Ross, Frank Greening, etc. seems to be by people who lack expertise in structural engineering (as do the authors: Ross has a degree in mechanical engineering, Greening in chemistry).

2) They say that they have not found any evidence corroborating alternative hypotheses such as planted explosives, without actually having researched those hypotheses (well, at least they haven't written up such research)
There isn't a single shred of evidence to lead to the hypothesis that demolitions explosives were used. Nothing reported by the engineers, notihing reported by the ironworkers or firemen at Ground Zero, nothing reported by the detectives and forensics experts who sorted 1.6 billion pounds of debris for evidence. Nothing in the videos. Nothing. How much time should NIST have spent on this absurd idea?

An aside: I know you've resigned from ST911, but I remember seeing "Engineering Ethics" next to your name on their site. That sounds interesting. I imagine issues like "Should we build this road or dam and displace these people." Or am I way off? Can you tell us more about it?

[ryanebelhar]

Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.



I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).


Let me assure you that guy doesn't represent anyone else at the University of Kentucky.

[Gravy]

As Gravy knows, I've only just started dipping my toes in this whole controversy.
I had a small question about the box cutters. Can anyone tell me where I can find the phonecall transcripts where the passengers and/or the flight attendants stated that the terrorists had killed/stabbed people. I've found the Betty Ong transcript, but I was wondering if it was mentioned on the other flights (united 93 specifically) also. Google is such a mess to wade through.
Thanks!
Welcome, soetkin.
This post doesn't have transcripts, but it may send you in the right direction: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1744280&postcount=35

[defaultdotxbe]

ive been posting at the LC forums today, in a debate with JDX in the GravyMarkyXRoberts thread, its like playing tennis with a wall over there

[T.A.M.]

JDX, since May of 2006 has over 3000 posts over at LC. Man, for a pilot, he sure has a lot of time on his hands.

[Gravy]

I'm not sure about this one, but I'll just float it:
what about the Pentagon body parts. There's a radio interview playing with Avery saying the government has shown no evidence that there were bodies in the Pentagon. The videos show what I believe to be pictures used as exhibits in Moussaoui's trial. Question: is the radio interview a recording from before or after that trial? It's not clear, but important - if that evidence was not available at the time of the interview, Avery could hardly be accused of lying, but it is implied here that he did.
Avery is probably referring to body parts of flight 77 victims (as if forensics photos are routinely released for public consumption). It seems likely that the photos from the Moussaoui trial show the bodies of Pentagon workers.

From the Moussaoui trial exhibits, here is a flash animation map of where each victim's remains was located in the Pentagon. Clicking on a location marker brings up a photo and bio of the victim. http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200318.html

[chipmunk stew]

The producers of The RU Sirius Show (http://rusiriusradio.com/), a podcast out of San Francisco, are organizing a debate between 911 conspiracy supporters and skeptics. We are looking for well-informed, articulate representatives of both sides to participate.

It is tentatively scheduled for Sunday, September 10th, in San Francisco.

Please respond with any suggestions or leads.

Thanks!

--
Jeff Diehl, Producer
The RU Sirius Show (http://rusiriusradio.com/)
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9573

[apathoid]

ive been posting at the LC forums today, in a debate with JDX in the GravyMarkyXRoberts thread, its like playing tennis with a wall over there
Best of luck not getting suspended! :D

[T.A.M.]

I am sure as soon as he grows bored with you he will suspend you.

Last I checked he was talking to himself in the MarkyX thread. he had four posts in a row, most of which was him talking to himself (as noone was replying) about how nobody better dare go toe to toe with him on issues of piloting, cause we know he is the jeesis Chriast of piloting now don't we.

[defaultdotxbe]

apparently he decided to leave because the s*** stepped in (according to him) must have smelled badly

either that or he doesnt want to be forced to back up any of his avionics claims

[apathoid]

I am sure as soon as he grows bored with you he will suspend you.

Last I checked he was talking to himself in the MarkyX thread. he had four posts in a row, most of which was him talking to himself (as noone was replying) about how nobody better dare go toe to toe with him on issues of piloting, cause we know he is the jeesis Chriast of piloting now don't we.
JohnD'oh might have the intellect of a mildly retarded bag of hammers, but man, he sure can type fast...

[WildCat]

I am sure as soon as he grows bored with you he will suspend you.
I think they'll ban him as soon as they figure out he's an admin at SLC.

[WildCat]

1) They have not studied / modeled the collapses themselves, but truncated the timeline at the onset of collapse, assuming that total collapse was then inevitable; hence the discussion in eg Gordon Ross's paper;
2) They say that they have not found any evidence corroborating alternative hypotheses such as planted explosives, without actually having researched those hypotheses (well, at least they haven't written up such research)

Will you need page numbers or will this do?
Thanks for the reply, gravy already answered along my line of thinking.

In all seriousness brumsen, doesn't it bother you that no structural engineers have come on board w/ the controlled demo theory yet? Or that the "Scholars for Truth" peer-review their own papers? Or that there is no evidence at all for the CT other than compressed video and flawed collapse times? Or the great number of outright lies (such as "no hijackers on the manifests") put forth by the CT community?

I could go on, but you get the picture.

BTW guys, brumsen has been very civil and actually responds to questions here. Please don't insult him or run him off the forum and leave us w/ only the geggys of the CT world to "debate". Debate is in quotes because I'm convinced geggy has never actually read a single reply to one of his posts...

[defaultdotxbe]

I think they'll ban him as soon as they figure out he's an admin at SLC.
that would require something resembling investigation on their part, lol

[twinstead]

BTW guys, brumsen has been very civil and actually responds to questions here. Please don't insult him or run him off the forum and leave us w/ only the geggys of the CT world to "debate".

I may be wrong, but there are only two "CT's" whom I have ever talked to who meet those criteria: brumsen, and turbonium, who posts on BAUT, Unexplained Mysteries, and the Apollo Hoax board.

I think it also helps those on either side to have a thick skin :)

[steve s]

I asked for a proof that the assumption that once the onset of collapse started (NISTs words) it was inevitable that it continue, is true. That need not be done by means of a simulation.



This has been addressed repeatedly. It's just simple physics. Momentum equals mass times velocity. Each floor that collapses just adds more mass to the falling portion of the building. Therefore the momentum of the falling portion is continually increasing throughout the collapse. Once it gets started nothing is going to stop it till it reaches the ground.

Steve S.

[defaultdotxbe]

well it looks liek jdx did end up getting bored

...but he didnt even ban me :( i went to the LC boards seeking martyrdom

[T.A.M.]

He'll be back as soon as anyone posts anything about any 9/11 topic that doesn't support his obnoxious view.

[Dog Town]

Agreed Wild,... think you were talking to me? I mailed him a My Bad earlier today. I really thought it was Bogglehead from another forum, and was just trying to ruffle feathers. I'll behave. Sorry Brums.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

My name's Mark, too!

Well, it's Markabby, and the M, the first A, the R and the K are silent.

So, if I threw into the mix the fact that my IRL name is Mark R. H., it would just add to the confusion eh?

[defaultdotxbe]

my middle name is Michael, thats almost Mark

[realitybites]

My step-brother had a friend Mark. I hung out with him back in the 80s. Can I get death threats too?

[apathoid]

well it looks liek jdx did end up getting bored

...but he didnt even ban me :( i went to the LC boards seeking martyrdom
I think its becoming clear to me why he is at least somewhat knowledgable of aviation jargon, but so completely ignorant of aviation in general. He has, for the third time I've seen today, referenced flightinfo.com. Thats an aviation site where he can wade through hundreds of threads of aviator lingo and mimic it elsewhere sounding somewhat knowledgable. But, when principles like Bills felt pen trick make it into the discussion....Whoooosh - it goes right over his head.
My conspiracy is that he is(was) a student pilot, and has to pose as a pilot as a combination of envy(billzilla thread) and the need to feel important(look at his moderating).

If Godzilla is still around, I'll see if I can calloborate with him to make a quiz that lil Jonny wont be able to find answers to on Google. Not that that would make a diference, he'll just claim were wrong because he says so!!

[WildCat]

Agreed Wild,... think you were talking to me? I mailed him a My Bad earlier today. I really thought it was Bogglehead from another forum, and was just trying to ruffle feathers. I'll behave. Sorry Brums.
brumsen has this forum (http://www.atfreeforum.com/911studies/index.php?sid=98529da05d982eee7d5f8c83960a67fa&mforum=911studies) to discuss "Journal of 9/11 Studies" articles. Not much traffic there lately though, they haven't put out a Volume 2 yet and Vol. 1 has been discussed to death.

[gumboot]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to let you know I have been painfully working my way through Alex Jones' "TerrorStorm" documentary (nearly 2hrs!). Its pretty awful. There's a lot of stuff I don't yet know much about, but the stuff I have looked into seems to follow the regular pattern of half truths and outright fabrications.

Once I have crawled my way through the remained of this bile I'll post a new thread with a summary of it, see if anyone else can add some insight...

This is the next logical progression of the 9/11 CTer - LC uncovers the government's set piece. TerrorStorm reveals their master plan.

It begins with a statement that A state of war only serves to impose domestic tyranny... so you can see where it is aimed...

Anyway... only an hour to go... :eek:

-Andrew

[realitybites]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to let you know I have been painfully working my way through Alex Jones' "TerrorStorm" documentary (nearly 2hrs!). Its pretty awful. There's a lot of stuff I don't yet know much about, but the stuff I have looked into seems to follow the regular pattern of half truths and outright fabrications.

Once I have crawled my way through the remained of this bile I'll post a new thread with a summary of it, see if anyone else can add some insight...

This is the next logical progression of the 9/11 CTer - LC uncovers the government's set piece. TerrorStorm reveals their master plan.

It begins with a statement that A state of war only serves to impose domestic tyranny... so you can see where it is aimed...

Anyway... only an hour to go... :eek:

-Andrew
While we're on the subject of "other videos", I was just curious if there were any other debunkings in the works. I know videos are a dime a dozen for the CTers, so getting to every one of them would see most of us to our graves, but maybe picking one of Alex Jones' would be the next logical step?

I'm not volunteering mind you. I have neither the congintive capacity nor the patience to sit through that tripe. But I figured someone here might want to lay themselves on the altar if necessary.

[Obviousman]

Something tells me I won't last much longer over there either. John DOH! wants to exercise his ego again and ban someone. All you have to do is disagree and BINGO! - it becomes "spin" and "BS" and "I'm sick of tolerating this..."

I have to admit, I wonder how a professional pilot has so much time on his hands. At this time, I have nothing to make me believe he is other than what he claims, but his attitude suggests he doesn't play well with others.

[60hzxtl]

I have to admit, I wonder how a professional pilot has so much time on his hands. At this time, I have nothing to make me believe he is other than what he claims, but his attitude suggests he doesn't play well with others.

Welcome Obviousman,

I think the clue is JohnDoes other sig. - Aluminum Driver. I think he drives the tractor that pulls the planes around the runway.

[apathoid]

I'm not volunteering mind you. I have neither the congintive capacity nor the patience to sit through that tripe. But I figured someone here might want to lay themselves on the altar if necessary.

I tried sitting through Terrorstorm, but I didnt make it to the 10 minute mark. I'm sure it would pointless to try to debunk it, because its more political in nature and less scientific...(not calling Loose Change scientific - just saying it can be debunked with science :) )

[WildCat]

Something tells me I won't last much longer over there either. John DOH! wants to exercise his ego again and ban someone. All you have to do is disagree and BINGO! - it becomes "spin" and "BS" and "I'm sick of tolerating this..."

I have to admit, I wonder how a professional pilot has so much time on his hands. At this time, I have nothing to make me believe he is other than what he claims, but his attitude suggests he doesn't play well with others.
Obviousman! Welcome to the JREF, I lurk over at the loosers site every now and then so I'm familiar w/ you. I've thought of posting over there, but it seems about as productive as smashing my head into a brick wall, or a concrete core w/ 3" rebar on 4' centers...

[T.A.M.]

Pat is on the radio presently...so far just a good background lesson on what got him into this, but I am sure more will come, and then the calls...lets see if any of the CTers are brave enough to take him on...(come on JDX, got a radio nearby, got a phone?)

[apathoid]

Something tells me I won't last much longer over there either. John DOH! wants to exercise his ego again and ban someone. All you have to do is disagree and BINGO! - it becomes "spin" and "BS" and "I'm sick of tolerating this..."

I have to admit, I wonder how a professional pilot has so much time on his hands. At this time, I have nothing to make me believe he is other than what he claims, but his attitude suggests he doesn't play well with others.

Welcome Obviousman. I dont know how you made it this long without a ban!
JDX claims to be an out of work pilot FWIW. I dont doubt that, because its hard to find work as a pilot when you arent one. If he was as experienced as he says, he wouldnt be out of work and he wouldnt have been flying RJs for a small regional airline.....

[Obviousman]

Yeah, he didn't like getting his butt kicked over the 'pen & dot' issue... or the beard issue. He really didn't like having his "evidence" shown up as an advisory, and not mandatory.

I've grown tired of his little rants; I might just go out in a blaze of glory - well, it really won't be glory but it will certainly be cathartic.

[kevin]

This has been addressed repeatedly. It's just simple physics. Momentum equals mass times velocity. Each floor that collapses just adds more mass to the falling portion of the building. Therefore the momentum of the falling portion is continually increasing throughout the collapse. Once it gets started nothing is going to stop it till it reaches the ground.

Steve S.

I think brumsen is look for an analysis that the floor below the damaged section would collapse when the mass above hit it. The NIST report doesn't really present any of this (if it was done.) From looking at the reports it looked like they stopped the simulations just after the upper floors collapsed.

part of the problem with attempting to show this is that the fall later on is obscured by dust and clouds, they really don't have anything validate a model of that part of the collapse.

Even if they ran this part of the collapse one could always claim that they just guessed what happened in the obscured parts of the collapse. Or they faked the model until they got the results they wanted.

[R.Mackey]

First of all, brumsen, I agree that you have been civil (and coherent), a welcome change from many who have come over here. I will endeavour to treat you in kind.

1) They have not studied / modeled the collapses themselves, but truncated the timeline at the onset of collapse, assuming that total collapse was then inevitable; hence the discussion in eg Gordon Ross's paper;
First of all, the focus of the NIST research was on collapse initiation, not collapse progression. This makes perfect sense if you think about it:

NIST is trying to understand why the collapse occurred
NIST is trying to see if future collapses could be prevented
Whether a building collapses in 15 seconds or 30 is of far lesser import than the fact it collapses at all
Limited time and money for the study

There's also a scientific reason. The sheer number of variables in a dynamic collapse are incredible, compared to the standing structure which is more or less static. I'm not aware of any simulation so complex that has any credibility or repeatability.

I'm also not aware of any large structures that "stop" collapsing. Once you get a few hundred thousand tons moving, and they've already defeated the pillars that were designed to hold them up, the odds that some other portion of the structure will just happen to catch it are, shall we say, low.

2) They say that they have not found any evidence corroborating alternative hypotheses such as planted explosives, without actually having researched those hypotheses (well, at least they haven't written up such research)

I've answered similar questions before. Unfortunately they belie a fundamental misunderstanding of scientific investigation. You see, NIST or any other agency did not first formulate a theory of collapse, and then only look for evidence that supported that theory, stopping once they found it, disregarding the rest. It doesn't work like that.

NIST recovered evidence, ran tests, conducted simulations, and then looked to see how all of these fit. It so happens that the facts both confirm the "official" theory and refute the "controlled demolition" theory at the same time.

You cannot send NIST out to test for demolition on a whim. You have to first show that the facts fit both theories, and that a new test that could distinguish the two -- say checking for chemical residue, fracture mechanics, etc. -- was needed. However, since the facts already known do not fit the demolition theory, this is irrelevant. No point going out looking for additional evidence, because that theory is already proven wrong.

This is a basic principle of science. Otherwise we would forever be testing for null hypotheses. In like fashion, NIST did not specifically test to see if the WTC was brought down by an earthquake, a UFO, GodzillaTM, whatever. The tests they conduct are general up until the point that two different theories both fit.

The other option is if we find evidence that doesn't fit the official theory. In that case, opening the field for alternative hypotheses is valid. So... do you have any evidence that doesn't fit the standard collapse scenario? Do you have an alternate theory that also satisfies the evidence collected so far? If so, please tell us about them. But if not, then the official story stands.

[T.A.M.]

damn, they just finished with pat on the radio, and never got to any callers...still over all he certainly got his views out there.

[gumboot]

I tried sitting through Terrorstorm, but I didnt make it to the 10 minute mark. I'm sure it would pointless to try to debunk it, because its more political in nature and less scientific...


I think it'd be worth a shot, although Alex Jones seems to be a bitter sharper, and makes his statements more vague, thus making it harder to pin him to anything.

The first half, at least, basically just recounts a series of examples of "Government sponsored terror" so a viewers guide type document could at the very least shed more light onto these events which he claims are "not contested, events where the fact of government sponsored terror is not debated, but in fact openly admitted to by western governments".

That is a VERY bold statement for him to make, especially given the nature of the events:

1933 - Reichstag Fire
1953 - Operation Ajax (CIA/MI6 Coup in Iran)
1964 - Gulf of Tonkin incident
1967 - USS Liberty incident
1946-83 - Operation Gladio (NATO "Stay Behind" armies)

Now I haven't done serious research into any of these yet, but even based on Alex Jones' claimed version of events only two of these would qualify as "Western governments sponsoring terror". And none of the ones I am familiar with are as clear-cut as Alex Jones claims...

-Andrew

[WildCat]

damn, they just finished with pat on the radio, and never got to any callers...still over all he certainly got his views out there.
What's w/ all the reverb on the guy reading the news? :eek:

[Brainster]

damn, they just finished with pat on the radio, and never got to any callers...still over all he certainly got his views out there.

I should have mentioned earlier that they were only planning on a half-hour segment which they gave me. Most of the time I only get one 10-minute shot (got one of those coming up on Tuesday, not sure it will be 9-11 related). He did have a movie guy coming after me, which is pretty common on Friday talk shows.

I'm working on briefing up the intro since every show will ask that--there's really no need to mention the Huffpo, for example. Doing media's not hard but it does require practice.

[WildCat]

I should have mentioned earlier that they were only planning on a half-hour segment which they gave me. Most of the time I only get one 10-minute shot (got one of those coming up on Tuesday, not sure it will be 9-11 related). He did have a movie guy coming after me, which is pretty common on Friday talk shows.
I was wondering why the subject was now "Dr. Strangelove".

[T.A.M.]

Good job anyway Pat.

I haev a question, when the LC guys are referred to this article about WTC 7, what is their reply??

Firehouse Fire Captain interview (http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html)

[defaultdotxbe]

damn, they just finished with pat on the radio, and never got to any callers...still over all he certainly got his views out there.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9646

this thread is funny, the OP lists the time and phone number, the next guy asks what time to call

once again, bang-up research from the CT crowd

[Brainster]

Good job anyway Pat.

I haev a question, when the LC guys are referred to this article about WTC 7, what is their reply??

Firehouse Fire Captain interview (http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html)

They'll find one inconsistency in there with somebody else's story and say that proves these guys were in on it. Not hard to see the one they'd highlight there--if it was an hour later the building came down, then this guy was thinking about going into Building 7 at 4:20; what about the fire chief who said they had a transit on it at 2:00 and saw it was moving?

You know how it is, legitimate question, but of course you're expecting every witness' recollection to match up with everybody else's. And anyway, the guy doesn't say it was an hour after he was going to go into WTC 7 that it fell down, but an hour after he did a lot of other tasks in between. Still, they'll focus on that one inconsistency because it's easy. They claim I do the same thing.

[Gravy]

Good job anyway Pat.

I haev a question, when the LC guys are referred to this article about WTC 7, what is their reply??

Firehouse Fire Captain interview (http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html)
Or, like the truthers at Ground Zero, they claim the FDNY was in on it.

[gtc]

uh no. Thermite burns down because of gravity. If you turn the container 90 degrees it'll still burn down. You might damage one side of the column, but not any more than the real fires did.

this dawned on me after i posted. oh well, it's been a bad week, or as a co-worker told me yesterday "you sure are grumpy".

I need to move to a neighborhood with more kids so I can yell at them to get off the lawn.

I suggest moving to a neighborhood with less gravity, its a well known fact that gravity makes you grumpy.

The towers fell faster than free fall and New Yorkers are notoriously grumpy. Coincidance? I think not.

[dubfan]

In like fashion, NIST did not specifically test to see if the WTC was brought down by an earthquake, a UFO, GodzillaTM, whatever.

I dunno about that. Donald Rumsfeld traveled to Japan on September 8, and there are reports Godzilla was photographed -- by US Navy special forces frogmen -- leaving his undersea lair on September 9.

[T.A.M.]

guys this one is laughable...

over at LC forum, they are discussing the DNA evidence of the 5 unidentified bodies at the Pentagon site.

So the comment is made that two of the 5 bodies were IDed as brothers.

So then one of the long time truthers, DECIDER, makes the comment "..what did they find a twin gene", insinuating that there was no other way to determine two pieces of DNA were that of siblings, unless there was some mysterious twin gfene. Who the F^*k is this guy...He has no godamn idea what he is talking about...

[Class]

He has no godamn idea what he is talking about...
None of the Loosers know what they are talking about.

[dubfan]

Where was Godzilla on September 10? There are reports that large quantities of concrete dust at the WTC site were contaminated with trace amounts of uranium, which could only have been produced by the radioactive breath of a mutant tyrannosaur.

AND WHY WAS THE STEEL SHIPPED BACK TO JAPAN?

What was Donald Rumsfeld trying to hide?

[Brainster]

Or, like the truthers at Ground Zero, they claim the FDNY was in on it.

I wonder if that's a corollary to the way the Loosers resent the passengers (and their families) so they start inventing all sorts of nonsense about them--that they're in on the plot, or else they're so stupid they can't tell their loved ones from computer simulations. In extreme cases, they claim a man sent his son off to die.

Unless you're a 9-11 Denier in New York, in which case (according to the hilarious story about MarkAbby a weekend or so ago), it's the firemen--ergo the nutbars imagine they must be in on it. Each group shoos off the demons by saying they're in on the plot.

[SRW]

Just wandered into a paltalk room and guess who is here chucksheen.
he is playing Tarply on mikeMalloy.com. in room called 911 discussion.

As soon as I say anyting I will be bumped.

[Brainster]

Just wandered into a paltalk room and guess who is here chucksheen.
he is playing Tarply on mikeMalloy.com. in room called 911 discussion.

As soon as I say anyting I will be bumped.

Anybody got anything good on Tarpley? I know he's a LaRouchie, but that's pretty passe, as is the Bush, Sr., book. I haven't looked at Synthetic Terror, I assume it's the same drivel as Griffin?

[SRW]

Anybody got anything good on Tarpley? I know he's a LaRouchie, but that's pretty passe, as is the Bush, Sr., book. I haven't looked at Synthetic Terror, I assume it's the same drivel as Griffin?

So far flight 11 landed in Cleavland, CD on bld 7 and the stock market.

[tacodaemon]

By the way, someone ought to go in and clear up the confusion in this Wikipedia section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_%28video%29#Criticisms) regarding who is behind 911research.wtc7.net and Gravy's viewer guide and the Screw Loose Change blog and MarkyX's video of the same name. I would do it but I'm afraid I'd screw up the facts somewhere along the line too.

[tacodaemon]

So far flight 11 landed in Cleavland, CD on bld 7 and the stock market.

The REAL truth the OCT proponents don't want you to know is that it transformed into a dirigible and attached itself to the Empire State Building's mooring mast!

[SRW]

The REAL truth the OCT proponents don't want you to know is that it transformed into a dirigible and attached itself to the Empire State Building's mooring mast!

And that is why the Empire State Building sits in Cleavland to this day. (It a hologram)

[brumsen]

First of all, the focus of the NIST research was on collapse initiation, not collapse progression. This makes perfect sense if you think about it:

NIST is trying to understand why the collapse occurred
NIST is trying to see if future collapses could be prevented
Whether a building collapses in 15 seconds or 30 is of far lesser import than the fact it collapses at all
Limited time and money for the study

There's also a scientific reason. The sheer number of variables in a dynamic collapse are incredible, compared to the standing structure which is more or less static. I'm not aware of any simulation so complex that has any credibility or repeatability.

Again, it need not be a simulation. And if you want to know why the collapse occurred, you also need to know why it did not stop. Limited money: sure, but of course I'd be arguing that more resources should have been made free for this study.

I've answered similar questions before. Unfortunately they belie a fundamental misunderstanding of scientific investigation. You see, NIST or any other agency did not first formulate a theory of collapse, and then only look for evidence that supported that theory, stopping once they found it, disregarding the rest. It doesn't work like that.

NIST recovered evidence, ran tests, conducted simulations, and then looked to see how all of these fit. It so happens that the facts both confirm the "official" theory and refute the "controlled demolition" theory at the same time.
Interestingly your answer seems to conflict with that given to me by JayUtah over on BAUT. Basically, if I remember well, he said that one starts with a hypothesis which then must be checked for its validity, and that one cannot check several hypotheses at the same time.
My problem here is that if one truncates the timeline as NIST did, it may be that your evidence is compatible with more than one hypothesis. Or in other words, that the alternative hypothesis has not been excluded by the evidence considered. Whereas this is the impression that the relevant sentence in their report gives. Anyway, I should probably point you towards this discussion, on BAUT (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=699620&postcount=66). Lots of reading, but I doubt there's a point in repeating the discussion here.

BTW thank you all for being civil with me.

[defaultdotxbe]

Again, it need not be a simulation. And if you want to know why the collapse occurred, you also need to know why it did not stop. Limited money: sure, but of course I'd be arguing that more resources should have been made free for this study.

if i take a ball, hold it out at arms length, then let go, i dont need to do any further research to know its going to fall until it hits the ground, i dont need to do any modelling to know its not going to stop

once the collapse began the forces acting on the structure were far too great for any part of the structure to withstand, and it was inevitable that it would collapse all the way to the ground

[gumboot]

My problem here is that if one truncates the timeline as NIST did


You have mentioned this several times.

What do you mean by "truncates the timeline"?

-Andrew

[orphia nay]

Woah, I've been busy at other forums (and taking a bit of a break) and I've got 13 pages of this thread to catch up on! I was only gone a week, and I just read the last 10 pages of part 3. Phew!

Back on page 89 of LC Part III:

I posted a review on IMDB http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0831315/usercomments-8

I believe you can indicate your approval or disapproval at the bottom of the page.

Great comment at IMDB, Shrinker. I reluctantly gave the film a 1 (the lowest vote possible), and voted 'yes' for all the helpful comments criticising the film (except the extreme 'LC is disinfo' type nutter's). It seems the majority of votes are critical of the film, but others need to so some voting as I'm sure there are Troofers bombing the page.

I saw another possibly familiar name commenting: crbin. Was that c0rbin from here?

[brumsen]

if i take a ball, hold it out at arms length, then let go, i dont need to do any further research to know its going to fall until it hits the ground, i dont need to do any modelling to know its not going to stop

once the collapse began the forces acting on the structure were far too great for any part of the structure to withstand, and it was inevitable that it would collapse all the way to the ground
Come on. You know that the complexity of the latter is not comparable to the former. This is just plain silly.

[brumsen]

NIST said they didn't include an analysis of post-collapse initiation events in their final report. I'm not aware that anyone at NIST said they didn't study the whole collapse.
Do you mean to say that they studied it, but for some reason didn't include that in the report; or are you making a finer distinction here which I am failing to grasp?

[sophia8]

I have to admit, I wonder how a professional pilot has so much time on his hands. At this time, I have nothing to make me believe he is other than what he claims, but his attitude suggests he doesn't play well with others.I wonder if he has any sort of job at all. I have health problems that keep me stuck at home for 90% of the time. But I only spend 5-6 hours a day on the computer, and that includes paid work. I simply wouldn't have the time to moderate a busy forum, post dozens of replies a day and surf the internet as well.
Unlike JDX, I have a life beyond my computer - I read, do art, go face-to-face with people and do that business with the flapping mouth.....

[sleahead]

Good job anyway Pat.

I haev a question, when the LC guys are referred to this article about WTC 7, what is their reply??

Firehouse Fire Captain interview (http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html)

The answer to your question is in this thread, T.A.M.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9595&st=30+

JerryB9105 responds to a set of firefighter quotes with the usual cocktail of lies, distortion and paranoia. Seemingly, firefighters can only be trusted when they report they heard explosions. What they actually saw with their own eyes in relation to wtc7 does not count.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Come on. You know that the complexity of the latter is not comparable to the former. This is just plain silly.

The complexity of the callculations to determine the resistance offered by remainder of the twin towers may be vastly more complex than determining air resistance from your shoulder to the sidewalk, but once you have that figure and you can see that the force being applied against it is far greater, then you know that figuring out the rest is pointless.

EDIT: One of these days, I'm gonna have to stop putting my thoughts down in loooooong run-on sentences like that.

[Obviousman]

BTW, I notice that John DOH! uses his "cloaking device" now as a mod.

Strange. I'd normally associate that with people who'd like to hide in dark corners and jump out with a "GOTCHA!" at some perceived wrongdoing.

[sleahead]

While you're here, Obviousman, I just want to tell you how much this Pom enjoyed you and your fellow Aussies effort on the Hanjour thread over on LC. Not only was it very good, it was also very funny. Give my regards to Billzilla when you talk to him.