Loose Change - Part IV

[T.A.M.]

From front page of LC Website:


Welcome!

This is where you'll find all the information you need on Loose Change, the independent documentary that has grown from a cult following to a grassroots organism that can no longer be contained.

What exactly is a "grassroots organism". Is that like an nemetode that swims abou the roots of the grass?

Sorry, a nitpick, but I thought it was funny.

TAM

[Bell]

Is that the straight to dvd "War of the Worlds" that came out just as the Tom Cruise one hit theaters? I just figured it was some guys attempt to cash in on idiots thinking the big theater one had hit dvd that quickly.

That was indeed a straight to DVD movie, allthough there was yet another version :eek:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449040/

ETA: Hines' version was in the making since 2001, long before the Cruise movie. He wanted a modern day version as well, but cancelled those plans after 9/11.

[T.A.M.]

Just got this off front page of "Scholars" site. Is this considered promoting or suggesting spamming?


START A CHAIN REACTION!
Send the following links to at least two friends, asking them to send them to at least two friends as well. When all is said and done, everyone linked to anyone here will have them:

9/11 Mysteries (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

Loose Change, 2nd Edition (Recut)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501

Terror Storm with Alex Jones (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5792753647750188322

9/11: A Conversation with Jim Fetzer (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=590053292130233240

Thanks for your support and concern. We can do it together!

Jim

James H. Fetzer
Founder and Co-Chair
Scholars for 9/11 Truth


TAM

[R.Mackey]

Just got this off front page of "Scholars" site. Is this considered promoting or suggesting spamming?

TAM
Gee, what nice people those "Scholars" are.

If I get these from anybody, even once, you're off my Christmas list. No second chances. You've been warned.

[T.A.M.]

Listening to Berm Ass on LTW radio, and from the sounds of it, they are going to rename the movement form the "truth" to the "patriot" movement. He hasnt said this directly, but he has called LC and AJs videos, on many occasions in the broadcast, "patriot videos".

so far, I have listened to 15 min of his broadcast, and he has said jack squat about anything else really. First 4 minutes is a song, which I have no doubt was made by his friend DJ whogivesashaite, that whines about "lies, all lies" going on about the "fluoride in the water" and shaite. Then he comes on for a minute, then interupts himself with commercials...entertaining anyway,

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Jason06.html

TAM

[R.Mackey]

"Patriot Movement," huh. How Orwellian.

I smell a fight over trademarks.

[Matthew Best]

"Patriot Movement"?

And what did Dr Johnson say about patriotism?

[TjW]

Hey, a refuge is a refuge...

[T.A.M.]

Any Idea why PDoherty76 was banned?

TAM

[Darat]

Banned from where? He's not been banned from here: http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=12339

[T.A.M.]

I was reading his postings over at SLC Blog, and he was claiming to have been banned from here. He probably just tried to enter here without proper password or something.

Not sure, but that it what he was claiming over there this AM.

TAM

[T.A.M.]

From SLC Blog Comments under "Response from Dylan" Blog Post:


pdoherty76 said...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ive been banned from JREF. that PROVES i u lot couldnt handle me. I totally destroyed you. but dont the clowns realise ill just re apply inder a different name and therefore be in an even better position to surrupticiously get quotes. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

3:13 AM

TAM

[JamesB]

Listening to Berm Ass on LTW radio, and from the sounds of it, they are going to rename the movement form the "truth" to the "patriot" movement. He hasnt said this directly, but he has called LC and AJs videos, on many occasions in the broadcast, "patriot videos".

so far, I have listened to 15 min of his broadcast, and he has said jack squat about anything else really. First 4 minutes is a song, which I have no doubt was made by his friend DJ whogivesashaite, that whines about "lies, all lies" going on about the "fluoride in the water" and shaite. Then he comes on for a minute, then interupts himself with commercials...entertaining anyway,

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Jason06.html

TAM

That has to be one of the most mind numbingly boring shows ever. The only remotely amusing parts were when Alex Jones called in to lie about the NY Times poll, that and how Bermas was too dumb to realize that when they started playing music it meant they were going to a commercial.

[T.A.M.]

I got so bored I didnt even make it through hour #1. kept both parts though, so I can quote his crap and trhow it back at him or other CTers later.

TAM

[CurtC]

I was reading his postings over at SLC Blog, and he was claiming to have been banned from here. He probably just tried to enter here without proper password or something.

Did you not get the message from the board hamsters?
Hi CurtC

There is a bug in the forum software that is occasionally telling Members incorrectly that their account has been suspended or banned.

It appears to happen after an account has been auto-logged out. We are trying to track down the problem however in the meantime should you experience this problem please go to http://forums.randi.org/forumindex.php and re-login. (We also recommend you check the "Remember Me" box and check that you are not using any bookmarked links to the forum that are of the format "http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/......" , all links to the forum should be of the format "http://forums.randi.org/.....".)

Sorry for any inconvenience.

JREF Forum Moderating Team

[JamesB]

I got so bored I didnt even make it through hour #1. kept both parts though, so I can quote his crap and trhow it back at him or other CTers later.

TAM

I listened to the whole thing (the things I do in the name of the blog) while I was doing my accounting homework. The accounting seemed exciting by comparison.

[T.A.M.]

Did you not get the message from the board hamsters?

I did not get the message, but this AM, when I tried to log on, the first time I did I got the "banned" message, but then when I entered my PW, it logged me in fine.

TAM

[Arus808]

Just got this off front page of "Scholars" site. Is this considered promoting or suggesting spamming?



TAM

he's just wanting, like most scammers, to bunk up the amount of "links" that goes to his website.

you can report this to google if it gets out of hand (as they are the first to pick up this tactic, and quickly remove offending website from their search list)

[Brainster]

That has to be one of the most mind numbingly boring shows ever. The only remotely amusing parts were when Alex Jones called in to lie about the NY Times poll, that and how Bermas was too dumb to realize that when they started playing music it meant they were going to a commercial.

Horrific callers, too--the first guy was obviously smashed and spouting slogans instead of having a conversation. Bermas also missed the fact that several callers were talking with the radio/internet broadcast going in the background, giving that odd delayed echo effect.

My favorite bit is where Bermas starts talking about whether it will be necessary to have a revolution. He hopes it won't (the voice of reason!) but reserves the right to fight against tyranny.

These guys remind me of the idiots in my youth (like me) who talked about "When the revolution comes, those bastards will be the first ones up against the wall." I wonder if we'll see some 9-11 Deniers do the Weatherman thing.

[W6102LA]

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/documentary.html
Definition:

factual movie or TV program: a movie or TV program presenting facts and information, especially about a political, historical, or social issue

Dylan & Co reeeally dropped the ball on this one :D

[delphi_ote]

These guys remind me of the idiots in my youth (like me) who talked about "When the revolution comes, those bastards will be the first ones up against the wall."
Not a big fan of the Sirius Cybernetics marketing division?

[CptColumbo]

Not a big fan of the Sirius Cybernetics marketing division?

"Share and enjoy."

and

"Go stick your head in a pig."

[tacodaemon]

Listening to Berm Ass on LTW radio, and from the sounds of it, they are going to rename the movement form the "truth" to the "patriot" movement. He hasnt said this directly, but he has called LC and AJs videos, on many occasions in the broadcast, "patriot videos".

so far, I have listened to 15 min of his broadcast, and he has said jack squat about anything else really. First 4 minutes is a song, which I have no doubt was made by his friend DJ whogivesashaite, that whines about "lies, all lies" going on about the "fluoride in the water" and shaite. Then he comes on for a minute, then interupts himself with commercials...entertaining anyway,

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Jason06.html


Hahaha those commercials are priceless. Aspartame gives you what we call Rumsfeld's Disease! Our satellite receivers are "very similar" to the ones used for satellite TV, wink-wink-nudge-nudge!

[Comsat Angel]

From SLC Blog Comments under "Response from Dylan" Blog Post:



TAM

Does Mr Doherty think his - ah - unusual - posting style won't be instantly obvious?

My theory is that he's a grumpy, crabby so-and-so when he's in rehab and especially when Kate is nagging him, but that when he's in crack-fuelled la-la land, then he's able to be mellow and polite. Or the other way round.

[eddyk]

I belive.

If LC ever went to the cinemas, it would work against itself.

Because it would get all the media attention, becoming more famous...and you would end up with TV shows on major networks debunking it.

Like the Fox moon landing one...only...not on Fox. (Hopefully)

That would be the end of that then...

[gumboot]

It will take me some time to catch up...

I see nothing has changed here... the battle continues. :p

I saw "World Trade Center" tonight. Afterwards I decided I had sorted my self out enough to return to the coal face. I intend to be a bit more relaxed about things. Life is too short to take seriously.

As always, I raise my hat to those that have fought out without rest.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

It will take me some time to catch up...

I see nothing has changed here... the battle continues. :p

I saw "World Trade Center" tonight. Afterwards I decided I had sorted my self out enough to return to the coal face. I intend to be a bit more relaxed about things. Life is too short to take seriously.

As always, I raise my hat to those that have fought out without rest.

-Gumboot
As Paul Henreid said to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca, "Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win." :D

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

It will take me some time to catch up...

I see nothing has changed here... the battle continues. :p

I saw "World Trade Center" tonight. Afterwards I decided I had sorted my self out enough to return to the coal face. I intend to be a bit more relaxed about things. Life is too short to take seriously.

As always, I raise my hat to those that have fought out without rest.

-Gumboot

*manly hug* *calls to bar wench for pints all around*

eta: *wanders off to change sig*

[chipmunk stew]

It will take me some time to catch up...

I see nothing has changed here... the battle continues. :p

I saw "World Trade Center" tonight. Afterwards I decided I had sorted my self out enough to return to the coal face. I intend to be a bit more relaxed about things. Life is too short to take seriously.

As always, I raise my hat to those that have fought out without rest.

-Gumboot
:yahoo
Welcome back!
:w2:

[Belz...]

It will take me some time to catch up...

I see nothing has changed here... the battle continues. :p

I saw "World Trade Center" tonight. Afterwards I decided I had sorted my self out enough to return to the coal face. I intend to be a bit more relaxed about things. Life is too short to take seriously.

As always, I raise my hat to those that have fought out without rest.

-Gumboot


GUMBOOT!!!!

The light has returned! All hail the light!

I was worried about you, man. Welcome back.

[gumboot]

:D

Thanks. I was a little shocked to see the LC thread wasn't on the first page! But then I saw all the other silly threads being dealt with.

Wack-a-mole continues!

-Gumboot

[negativ]

from loosechange911.blogspot.com:

British Al-Jazeera was here yesterday. Real good people. The interview should air when their station opens, I'll keep you guys posted.

Maybe it'll run back-to-back with another video from bin Laden or al-Zawahiri or some anonymous head-chopping Iraqi 'insurgent'.

[CptColumbo]

Two in a row ~ Ill take it. :)


...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...

<ponders the quasi-gauntlet just the same, and will work on number 3 another day... when you least expect it :) >

Too late. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2040530&postcount=75

[T.A.M.]

Here is an interesting link.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement

I am not sure what qualifies one as "prominent" in the USA, but most of these people don't seem to me to be anything more than a few politicians, a few scientists, a few college professors, a few business people, and a couple of hollywood people.

Not very impressive...

TAM

[gumboot]

Isn't it about time this got stickied and #5 was created?

-Gumboot

[Jennie C.]

Isn't it about time this got stickied and #5 was created?

-Gumboot

I think you jinxed it, Gumboot. :p

[delphi_ote]

I think you jinxed it, Gumboot. :p
Nah. Most of our favorite nuts got banned here for having hissy fits, and not much is going on over at the LC board these days.

[tsig]

Nah. Most of our favorite nuts got banned here for having hissy fits, and not much is going on over at the LC board these days.

I miss Jessicarabbit, don't know why. One of the better socks of JDX I have known.

[Bell]

I miss Jessicarabbit, don't know why. One of the better socks of JDX I have known.

I don't think P D'oh the First through the Fourth is JDX :confused:

Happy birthday, btw :)

[CptColumbo]

I don't think P D'oh the First through the Fourth is JDX :confused:

Happy birthday, btw :)

I agree. IMO the socks have not been as focused as JDX. Also, JDX is proud of his credentials (real or imagined), and will try to produce evidence of it (real or fabricated).

Happy Birthday DHR.

[apathoid]

I miss Jessicarabbit, don't know why. One of the better socks of JDX I have known.

Jessica was P D'oh/Ducker/someone else i cant remember. He/she/it was summoned here from the SLC blog by TAM(Gee thanks buddy :D). So far, D'oh (JD type) only has one possibly 2 socks - both have been banned.
Dont expect we'll be seeing either one again and I dont think TAM will be daring any more CTers to come here..;)

[Bell]

So far, D'oh (JD type) only has one possibly 2 socks - both have been banned.

I only know of Willy Wonka Weed Wanker, who was the other?

[delphi_ote]

I only know of Willy Wonka Weed Wanker, who was the other?
Lath (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=67186).

[Bell]

Lath (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=67186).

Nope, that was P D'oh's sock. Read the sig, man! :D

We are talking about JohnD'OhX, I know Weedwanker was his sock, but who was the other? 5stargeneral?

[CptColumbo]

Perhaps he had already set up a sock before he got banned the last time.

Damn. He's making me think like a CTer about him.

[gumboot]

Just read back a bit and missed a conversation on the pancaking and lack thereof.

As I understand it, the failure mechanism was the collapse of the exterior columns in the impact zone, not the floors. I've always understood the "pancaking" to refer to what happened AFTER collapse started - that is when the lower floors crashed down on each other.

However, from my own layman's observations, I feel the collapse, at least in the North Tower, was more about the disintegration of the exterior columns.

Certainly, from day one, I have described the collapse of WTC1 as looking like a banana being peeled. Hence my amusement at claims of it coming down "in its own footprint" like a "textbook controlled demolition". Massive sections of the exterior columns - 5, 10, 20 floors high - peeled away from the structure.

I am a bit firmer about this scenario, given the core remained standing for some time.

My hypothesis:

Due to the inward bowing at the impact zone, the collapse debris was contained almost exclusively inside the boundaries of the structure created by the exterior columns.

As they fell they "peeled" the exterior columns (which acted like a skin due to their componant structure of multiple floors and columns together in sections) away from the building.

Essentially you are left with a "naked" structure - the core and floors intact, with no exterior walls.

Except, of course, that's not going to happen. With nothing holding up the outer edges of the floors, and with the debris from above crashing down, the lower floors were shredded from the core one after the other, crashing down upon each other.

This left a severly damaged core standing on its own. Of course, it could not possibly remain standing like that, and within seconds it too collapses.

Once the floors started their "stacking" down the core, I can see this progression rapidly accelerating ahead of the "peeling" of the exterior columns - afterall the only thing keeping the floors up is the bolted points along the core and exterior.

That, balanced up against the collapse force crashing down across an acre of floor space. That's a lot of leverage.

Thoughts?

-Gumboot

[apathoid]

Nope, that was P D'oh's sock. Read the sig, man! :D

We are talking about JohnD'OhX, I know Weedwanker was his sock, but who was the other? 5stargeneral?

http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=505115

[Bell]

http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=505115

Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.

Coincidence? :boxedin:

[apathoid]

Coincidence? :boxedin:

Thats weird, he's not listed in the memberlist anymore either. Lets try a single post:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2039670#post2039670

[Bell]

Thats weird, he's not listed in the memberlist anymore either. Lets try a single post:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2039670#post2039670

Oh, him...

I think he must of picked up his job again? Since he is not posting much. How is he doing at his own forum btw? I still can't view it (bummer).

[apathoid]

Oh, him...

I think he must of picked up his job again? Since he is not posting much. How is he doing at his own forum btw? I still can't view it (bummer).

You havent missed much. :)

[delphi_ote]

Nope, that was P D'oh's sock. Read the sig, man! :D

We are talking about JohnD'OhX, I know Weedwanker was his sock, but who was the other? 5stargeneral?
I'm a real genius sometimes.

[Jennie C.]

As I understand it, the failure mechanism was the collapse of the exterior columns in the impact zone, not the floors. I've always understood the "pancaking" to refer to what happened AFTER collapse started - that is when the lower floors crashed down on each other.

However, from my own layman's observations, I feel the collapse, at least in the North Tower, was more about the disintegration of the exterior columns.

Certainly, from day one, I have described the collapse of WTC1 as looking like a banana being peeled. Hence my amusement at claims of it coming down "in its own footprint" like a "textbook controlled demolition". Massive sections of the exterior columns - 5, 10, 20 floors high - peeled away from the structure.



But... but... but... You've forgotten about the concrete core!

http://concretecore.741.com/

-) (in the days before fancier emoticons, that was considered to be "tongue in cheek")

(for you younger geeks with no whimsy in your soul, the dash (-) is supposed to be the tongue and the right paren (")") the bulging cheek)

Fancier emoticon: :p

[orphia nay]

Just read back a bit and missed a conversation on the pancaking and lack thereof.

As I understand it, the failure mechanism was the collapse of the exterior columns in the impact zone, not the floors. I've always understood the "pancaking" to refer to what happened AFTER collapse started - that is when the lower floors crashed down on each other.

However, from my own layman's observations, I feel the collapse, at least in the North Tower, was more about the disintegration of the exterior columns.

Certainly, from day one, I have described the collapse of WTC1 as looking like a banana being peeled. Hence my amusement at claims of it coming down "in its own footprint" like a "textbook controlled demolition". Massive sections of the exterior columns - 5, 10, 20 floors high - peeled away from the structure.

I am a bit firmer about this scenario, given the core remained standing for some time.

Have I missed something after all this time?

My hypothesis:

Due to the inward bowing at the impact zone, the collapse debris was contained almost exclusively inside the boundaries of the structure created by the exterior columns.

As they fell they "peeled" the exterior columns (which acted like a skin due to their componant structure of multiple floors and columns together in sections) away from the building.

Essentially you are left with a "naked" structure - the core and floors intact, with no exterior walls.

Except, of course, that's not going to happen. With nothing holding up the outer edges of the floors, and with the debris from above crashing down, the lower floors were shredded from the core one after the other, crashing down upon each other.

This left a severly damaged core standing on its own. Of course, it could not possibly remain standing like that, and within seconds it too collapses.

Once the floors started their "stacking" down the core, I can see this progression rapidly accelerating ahead of the "peeling" of the exterior columns - afterall the only thing keeping the floors up is the bolted points along the core and exterior.

That, balanced up against the collapse force crashing down across an acre of floor space. That's a lot of leverage.

Thoughts?

-Gumboot


Er, Jennie C - it reads to me like Gumboot's factoring in a concrete core! :confused:

Either that, or I've had one too many beers. Or he has. ??? It is Friday night down here, after all.

My understanding is that the plane impact damaged/destroyed a number of columns, and fires weakened more of them, so that the remaining columns in the impact/fire area had to bear more weight and eventually failed due to said excess weight and heat.

Lots of the outer columns actually remained, as shown by the rubble pile.

Of course the possibility exists that I'm totally missing the point, and I'll accept that if that's the case.

[gumboot]

My understanding is that the plane impact damaged/destroyed a number of columns, and fires weakened more of them, so that the remaining columns in the impact/fire area had to bear more weight and eventually failed due to said excess weight and heat.

Lots of the outer columns actually remained, as shown by the rubble pile.

Of course the possibility exists that I'm totally missing the point, and I'll accept that if that's the case.


It was more that extra loading came on the exterior columns due to damage to the core. Weight was transferred to the exterior via the hat truss. At the same time floor trusses in the impact zone, weakened by the fire, began to sag (as documented by NYPD aviation unit photographs). As these trusses sagged they pulled the exterior columns inwards, created a bowing of the exterior wall, which was visible some time before collapse. The NYPD aviation unit observed this and reported that structural collapse was imminent - hence why WTC7 was evacuated.

Unfortunately due to conflict between NYPD and FDNY, they had never developed a common communication method, so the FDNY didn't know this critical information.

Ultimately the exterior columns reached a bowing point where they could nolonger contain their load and so they failed across the entire impact zone.

In some angles of the collapse an entire section of the core of WTC1 - at least 60 to 80 floors - can be seen standing in the smoke for about 15 - 20 seconds after the rest of the building collapsed. It then collapses itself.

You are right as well that a "shard" of the exterior columns at a corner, several floors high, did remain standing for some time after the building had collapsed, before it too failed.

-Gumboot

[Jennie C.]

From orphia nay:
Er, Jennie C - it reads to me like Gumboot's factoring in a concrete core! :confused:

From Gumboot:
This left a severly damaged core standing on its own. Of course, it could not possibly remain standing like that, and within seconds it too collapses.


Note, he says the "core" not the "concrete" core.

I was just having fun, being also immersed in the discussion of the "realistice" (original poster's spelling) explanation for "free fall" and the "concrete core." In that thread, Christophera is insisting that a concrete core "had to have" been there and every time he types the words, he includes the link that I included.

It's very tedious to read, but it becomes funny just barely often enough that I'm still reading.

But hey, thanks for giving me another reason to post so I can grow ever closer to being able to have an avatar and signature (not that I have any idea what to use for either)

[T.A.M.]

Call me old fashioned, but I love to watch the hounds chase things. It is for this reason, that I throw this little tidbit out for the CTers to go rabid over...

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_01/01crime5.pdf

On the last page of this PDF, which basically analyzes the demographics of the victims and offenders of 9/11, the FBi lists all 19 "Offenders" as WHITE MALES.

lol...I guess if you are not African coloration, you are considered white, but I am sure I have just given Dylan and the rest another lit byte of info to misrepresent...lol

TAM

Edit: Here is a very interesting article, from the FBi, their testimony to congressional arms committee in MAY 2001. (prior to 9/11)

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm

TAM

[orphia nay]

It was more that extra loading came on the exterior columns due to damage to the core. Weight was transferred to the exterior via the hat truss. At the same time floor trusses in the impact zone, weakened by the fire, began to sag (as documented by NYPD aviation unit photographs). As these trusses sagged they pulled the exterior columns inwards, created a bowing of the exterior wall, which was visible some time before collapse. The NYPD aviation unit observed this and reported that structural collapse was imminent - hence why WTC7 was evacuated.

Unfortunately due to conflict between NYPD and FDNY, they had never developed a common communication method, so the FDNY didn't know this critical information.

Ultimately the exterior columns reached a bowing point where they could nolonger contain their load and so they failed across the entire impact zone.

In some angles of the collapse an entire section of the core of WTC1 - at least 60 to 80 floors - can be seen standing in the smoke for about 15 - 20 seconds after the rest of the building collapsed. It then collapses itself.

You are right as well that a "shard" of the exterior columns at a corner, several floors high, did remain standing for some time after the building had collapsed, before it too failed.

-Gumboot

Thanks, Gumboot. :)

Ah, the clear light of day.

I guess this might be what happens when I can't be bothered reading Christophera's Realistice threadi. Does he alwayse add vowelse to the end of wordse?

Jennie C, well done on your perseverence with the LC threads and others. You should be proud of your number of posts in comparison to mine - I suspect too many of mine have been rather dumb questions as above. :o
I enjoy seeing your posts telling us your thoughts and where you're up to in the long threads. You should try and find an avatar that reflects all that diligence of yours.

[W6102LA]

Amuse yourselves....

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=410&st=30

:p

[Gravy]

Amuse yourselves....

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=410&st=30

:pRussell accusing Merc of avoiding an important issue! Oh, mercy!

[W6102LA]

QUOTE The manipulation of the Citgo witness is reprehensible in my opinion. That is what I will expose.


I am saving all of this Russell. I am documenting everything you are saying and doing. This sentence will be a gem. Can you please elaborate on my "manipulation"?:eye-poppi

[Brainster]

Amuse yourselves....

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=410&st=30

:p

Here's something to keep in mind if April Gallop becomes a Denier in the FC:

I know Dylan is a generous kid, I know first hand from what he did for April Gallop which was a nice gesture. But I feel this detail was overlooked and money can be a sticky thing to bring up, so I never did. But apparently you felt the overwhelming need to bring it up now.

[Kent1]

Looks like another phoney dub.
Listen......
http://www.911blogger.com/
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5860825099435530591&q=9


Now the origonal.......
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem12/911.wtc.2.demolition.south.below.mpg

[LashL]

Amuse yourselves....

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=410&st=30

:p

Poor Russell, even his fellow tinhatters can't stand him. Of course, they have different reasons for dismissing him there than we have for dismissing him here.

He is dismissed here because he cannot and will not respond meaningfully to legitimate queries; he cannot and will not engage in intelligent discourse on legitimate subjects; he cannot and will not articulate his own views coherently; he posts grandiose posts and then backs off of them when called upon for details; he posts grandiose posts and then backs off when someone offers to follow through on his "evidence" even though he is not willing to do so himself; he posts nonsense and then can't put his "money where his mouth is", etc.

At the same time that he pretends to be a "researcher", he fails miserably at research, refuses to analyze or dig deeper into his alleged "evidence", and he subscribes willynilly to all manner of lunatic conspiracy theories, follows the usual tinhat path of ignoring facts and evidence, spouting nonsense, resorting to "Just Asking Questions" mode while simultaneously avoiding and ignoring and refusing to address the answers, etc.

Here, he is repeatedly called on his BS, his cherry picking, his nonsensical, illogical posts, his tinhat theories, his pathetic attempts to shift goalposts, his ridiculous attempts to disparage others in his efforts to deflect attention from his own shortcomings, and his inability to respond meaningfully to any of the numerous legitimate queries and challenges that have arisen from his lame posts - with facts and evidence which he cannot and has not ever been able to refute, and which he has made no legitimate effort to even attempt to refute.

There, he's taken on by idiots as idiotic or more idiotic than himself for idiotic reasons on idiotic subjects.

No wonder he went back there ~ it's a lot less work. He only has to talk idiocy with idiots below his own level of idiocy.

Ah, well, good for Russell. He's back in his element at the LC forum - there, he can at least appear intelligent to the LC loony bin whose collective IQ doesn't break double digits.

[W6102LA]

Looks like another phoney dub.
Listen....
Now the origonal.......
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem12/911....south.below.mpg

Not Found

The requested URL /911/wtc2dem12/911....south.below.mpg was not found on this server.

Anyone else having the same problem ?

[Kent1]

Anyone else having the same problem ?
Try this
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem12/911.wtc.2.demolition.south.below.mpg
From this page
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem12/

[Gravy]

Yup. That's fake.

[W6102LA]

Try this
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem12/911.wtc.2.demolition.south.below.mpg
From this page
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem12/

Ahh..thanks :)

[David Wong]

Yup. That's fake.

Wait, why would somebody do that?

I mean, the person who dubbed it obviously knew what they were doing, knew they were "faking" the video. So is this a faction within the deniers who knows it's BS but who propagate it for some other reason? Someone playing a practical joke? What?

[T.A.M.]

The integrity, quality, legitamacy of the evidence is secondary to most truthers. What is important is furthering the movement and its agenda, regardless. Faking of evidence is not surprising at all. What is surprising is that we havent seen more of it.

TAM

[Kent1]

Wait, why would somebody do that?

I mean, the person who dubbed it obviously knew what they were doing, knew they were "faking" the video. So is this a faction within the deniers who knows it's BS but who propagate it for some other reason? Someone playing a practical joke? What?

This isn't the first time a collapse video has been poorly dubed either.
There seems to be a stronger trend of fake information these days.

[CptColumbo]

This is a derail.

I was on Youtube.com looking at planes and FDR data and came across this:

dPv8psZsvIU

and thought it was cool.

[nathanmcginty]

I noticed that the LC guys said something about their movie being released in the theatres next year? Ummmm....I know I bring this up a lot...but the majority of LC was footage pirated from other sources....how is this possible?

[CptColumbo]

I noticed that the LC guys said something about their movie being released in the theatres next year? Ummmm....I know I bring this up a lot...but the majority of LC was footage pirated from other sources....how is this possible?

I think at one point they were trying to get it out this year, in time for the fifth anniversary of 9/11. Then the Naudet's lawyers hit them with a C&D order, regarding their footage.

[LashL]

I think at one point they were trying to get it out this year, in time for the fifth anniversary of 9/11. Then the Naudet's lawyers hit them with a C&D order, regarding their footage.

Yes, I recall that several months ago they were claiming that it was going to be in theatres in advance of the 5th anniversary... that obviously didn't work out for them - big surprise.

Despite the assertions of Do Over, etal, no legitimate studio is going to pay them for their plagiarism, which is all that the first several versions of LC has amounted to. They're going to have to come up with something original if they ever expect to make any money from their grotesque exploitation of the victims.

[CptColumbo]

Here's how I think a meeting with a studio exec would go:

Studio: So what do you guys have?

DA: An exciting new documentary.

Studio: Really, they are pretty big lately. Inconvenient Truth and March of the Penguins made quite a bit of money. What's yours about?

DA: 9/11.

Studio: So it's like that Naudet Brother's documentary. With lots of compelling footage.

DA: It was quite a bit like theirs, but not anymore. It does have an interesting new twist.

Studio: A twist...in a documentary...go on.

DA: The US goverment did it.

Studio: Did what?

DA: 9/11.

Studio: You have proof of this?

DA: Not really.

Studio: What do you have?

DA: Questions.

Studio: And these "questions" have never been answered?

DA: They have, but not in a way that supports our film's theme.

Studio: Well, putting that aside, there have already been two movies this year theatrically released about 9/11. I don't think there is going to be much interest in yet another one.

DA: But we already have a huge following on the internet.

Studio: Like Snakes on a Plane? So, you've been wetting peoples appetites with clips to make them hungry for more.

DA: Actually, we've been showing them the whole thing.

Studio: WHAT! Why the hell would anyone pay to see a movie in a theatre that they can watch for free on the internet in their home?

DA: We've also generated quite a bit of interest on the street.

Studio: By handing out flyers, advertising your website?

DA: No, by handing out DVDs of the movie.

Studio: Selling them on the street?

DA: No, we can't do that anymore. We give them away.

Studio: And you expect us to invest money resources and time to put a movie in theaters that is available for free to anyone walking down the street.

DA: Yes.

Studio: What are you, retarded? Why did you stop selling it?

DA: We used copyrighted footage from other filmmakers without their permission.

Studio: Uh-huh. That's the kind of thing you learn not to do at film school.

DA: I was not accepted into film school. Can you believe it?

Studio: Yes. Since you have such an enourmous following online, why don't you get your supporters to put it in theaters.

DA: They really don't like leaving their keyboards for any extended length of time or actually doing anything outside of the internet.

You know, they warned me that no studio would go against the "official" story. Since both the government and Hollywood are controlled by Jews.

Studio: This is Sony Pictures.

DA: What's your point?

Studio: Get out of my office!

DA: Charlie Sheen liked it.

Studio: Well, if the co-writer of Men at Work liked it, here's a check for $100,000.

DA: Really?

Studio: No! Get the f--k out of my office!

DA: Shill!

Studio: Moron!

[uk_dave]

love it!! :D:D:D

especially the....

Studio: What do you have?

DA: Questions.

Studio: And these "questions" have never been answered?

DA: Yes, but not in a way that supports our film's theme.

[Graham2001]

Yes, I recall that several months ago they were claiming that it was going to be in theatres in advance of the 5th anniversary... that obviously didn't work out for them - big surprise.

Despite the assertions of Do Over, etal, no legitimate studio is going to pay them for their plagiarism, which is all that the first several versions of LC has amounted to. They're going to have to come up with something original if they ever expect to make any money from their grotesque exploitation of the victims.

Sadly that's not always the case. The woman who made this film about the Estonia sinking (http://tinyurl.com/yall9z) allegedly got financial support from the German Govt to make it!?!. Basically it claims that the KGB sank the ship to stop the US getting its hands on a 'secret weapon' and that the US then covered it up for some reason.

(For more info check out pages 121 to 126 of The Outlaw Sea (http://tinyurl.com/ye6d77) by William Langewiesche.)

In slightly better news I managed to pursuade a CT believer in my office that 'Loose Change' was not worth purchasing at any price (even if it is for free):)

[Belz...]

Here's how I think a meeting with a studio exec would go:

You, sir, slay me.


Studio: Yes. Since you have such an enourmous following online, why don't you get your supporters to put it in theaters.

DA: They really don't like leaving their keyboards for any extended length of time or actually doing anything outside of the internet.

:D

[T.A.M.]

here is a simple question from a man with alot of old, and forgotten physics background. I could not think of what other thread to put it in.

When calculating how long it should have taken for an object to fall "Freely" from a given height, so as to compare it to the actual fall times of the towers, how did they go about it.

if WTC1 fell in 9 seconds, approximately, how did they calculate how long an object in "Free fall" would have taken to fall a similar distance.

Did they use d=0.5*g*t*t

if so, what did they use for distance d. we know g=9.8 m/ss

did they use the height of the impact zone (372m), or the full height of the building (417m) or the center of gravity for the falling 12 floors that fell (394m)?

And what about WTC2?

Answers please? AM I way off base here?

TAM

[Bell]

TAM, IIRC they (LC) used the total height.
The showed a clip that started at the precise moment (or later) the collapse started, and stopped counting somewhere the first debris and dustclouds hit the ground.... IIRC
But who cares if I'm wrong, LC doesn't care if they are.

[LashL]

Sadly that's not always the case. The woman who made this film about the Estonia sinking (http://tinyurl.com/yall9z) allegedly got financial support from the German Govt to make it!?!. Basically it claims that the KGB sank the ship to stop the US getting its hands on a 'secret weapon' and that the US then covered it up for some reason.

Interesting. Did she make her film with nothing but plagiarized material like the Loose Change gang did?

In slightly better news I managed to pursuade a CT believer in my office that 'Loose Change' was not worth purchasing at any price (even if it is for free):)

Well done ;)

[T.A.M.]

TAM, IIRC they (LC) used the total height.
The showed a clip that started at the precise moment (or later) the collapse started, and stopped counting somewhere the first debris and dustclouds hit the ground.... IIRC
But who cares if I'm wrong, LC doesn't care if they are.

Yes, for counting the fall time, that is what they did, but my question is, in calculating how long, theoretically, it should have taken to fall, if in "Fre Fall",

(a) did they use the equation d=0.5*g*t*t, to arrive at the time, and if so, (b) what did they use for the distance fallen, was it (1) full height of building, (2) height of impact zone, or (3) height of center of gravity of intect portion above impact zone. These are three different heights, and would make a substantial difference to the Freel Fall time.

TAM

[Pardalis]

To anyone from Québec, conspiracy theories (especially 9/11) will be covered on tonight's "les Francs Tireurs" show (sort of our Penn & Teller).

Prepare to be bukkaked with stupid. I got my raincoat and my goggles ready.

:D

http://www.telequebec.tv/lesfrancstireurs/

[T.A.M.]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_10761455202155aceb.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2493)

The above is where my line of thinking is. If you look at it, there are 3 possible Free Fall times, depending on the height (d) you use in the equation...

d = 0.5*g*t*t

to give

t = square root of (d/5)

if you use top of building, free fall is = 9.13s
if you use the 98th floor, free fall is = 8.62 s
if you use the 104th floor (assumed center of gravity of top portion),
then free fall is = 8.88s

Seems like a small difference, but in fact it is aabout 1/2 a second difference, which out of 8-9 seconds is significant.

Once again, any help would be appreciated.

TAM

[T.A.M.]

sorry duplicate

TAM

[rwguinn]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_10761455202155aceb.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2493)

The above is where my line of thinking is. If you look at it, there are 3 possible Free Fall times, depending on the height (d) you use in the equation...

d = 0.5*g*t*t

to give

t = square root of (d/5)

if you use top of building, free fall is = 9.13s
if you use the 98th floor, free fall is = 8.62 s
if you use the 104th floor (assumed center of gravity of top portion),
then free fall is = 8.88s

Seems like a small difference, but in fact it is aabout 1/2 a second difference, which out of 8-9 seconds is significant.

Once again, any help would be appreciated.

TAM
I usually use the topof the building, just to give them the longest time...mess with their mind...
I think that is what they tend to use, since it "proves" their point (some debris would have hit sooner than 8.8 seconds, if you read the seismograph "properly"

[Graham2001]

Interesting. Did she make her film with nothing but plagiarized material like the Loose Change gang did?

I haven't actually seen it (yet) but from the description in "The Outlaw Ocean" and the IMDB.com page it would seem to be a 'dramatized reconstruction' of what she believes happened. There's also supposed to be a lot of poetic licence involved...

Basically its an action thriller based around a particular conspiracy theory with a heroic reporter uncovering the vile plot, infiltrating military bases, etc...

[Pardalis]

http://www.telequebec.tv/lesfrancstireurs/

The show was great BTW, it showed the CTists as they are... completely nuts.

The journalist ended the segment by saying:

"you can't argue with a CTist, it's like trying to nail jello on a wall."

I never heard that one before! :D

It's a strange thing, to hear the exact same words and phrases the CTists are saying, but in French. They really are an international cult, repeating the same things over and over again.

They interviewed a paranoid lecturer, sort of a mix between Alex Jones and David Icke, who was followed around by people with camcorders... Reminds you of anyone?

ETA: oh, and they use the expression "9/11", which in French doesn't make sense. That would make it November the 9th...:rolleyes:

[T.A.M.]

I usually use the topof the building, just to give them the longest time...mess with their mind...
I think that is what they tend to use, since it "proves" their point (some debris would have hit sooner than 8.8 seconds, if you read the seismograph "properly"

Ya I kind of figured they most often use the building heignt, but that is likely inserting a 5-10% error. Alone that isnt alot, but if you start off 5-10% off, the little errors soon add up.

So I would use the center of gravity height, which would be 394m, not 417m, and for WTC 2, the error would be even greater, as the impact was lower, and hence the center of gravity for the falling portion of the building above would be much lower than the full height of the building.

TAM

[Pardalis]

Before the show, I never really gave much attention to this logo:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_8886455383d229736.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2509)

Which is a very popular conveniant store in Québec...

Now I know :boxedin:

[jon]

The French (in Europe, at least -- not sure about Francophone Canadians) got in early with the CT: Thierry Meysan's work contains a lot of the dodgy claims you also see in the US ‘truth’ movement.

[Pardalis]

Hearing the same wordings and phrasings over and over again from the CT crowd can actually become an interesting tool. I can reckognise these very often now even in situations unrelated to conspiracy theories.

Is this called positive annoyance?

[nathanmcginty]

Yes, I recall that several months ago they were claiming that it was going to be in theatres in advance of the 5th anniversary... that obviously didn't work out for them - big surprise.

Despite the assertions of Do Over, etal, no legitimate studio is going to pay them for their plagiarism, which is all that the first several versions of LC has amounted to. They're going to have to come up with something original if they ever expect to make any money from their grotesque exploitation of the victims.

sheeeet...i know it was more than the naudet stuff. all the cnn footage and other news footage? you've got to get releases for that.

another documentary filmmaker (much more knowledgeable than myself) was talking about all the legal forms they have to have for just one interview subject when they sell a show to TV/Cable.

not to mention that damn helicopter shot at the beginning. i'm pretty sure that's take right out of the HBO special.

[chran]

not to mention that damn helicopter shot at the beginning. i'm pretty sure that's take right out of the HBO special. I believe that's taken from the movie Joe's Apartment (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116707/).

Source (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1722184&postcount=394)
Straight from the horse's mouth (http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_loosechange911_archive.html) - scroll down to the entry "The rainstorm a punctuation to an outstanding night." from 4.26.2006

[Obviousman]

Can anyone remember some claim on the LC board that there was going to be a nuclear holocaust, or civil war, or NWO takeover or something during OCT / NOV?

They were all talking about how they would prepare for it, etc. I'm sure the date has passed and I just want to gloat....

[Bell]

Can anyone remember some claim on the LC board that there was going to be a nuclear holocaust, or civil war, or NWO takeover or something during OCT / NOV?

They were all talking about how they would prepare for it, etc. I'm sure the date has passed and I just want to gloat....

That would be the OCTOBER (!!) surprise. I think it envolved a staged attack on a US aircraft carrier, killing 3000 military personel. 'Obvious' Iran would be behind the attack, and the US would nuke the country.

No really! You can't make this up!

[sleahead]

Can anyone remember some claim on the LC board that there was going to be a nuclear holocaust, or civil war, or NWO takeover or something during OCT / NOV?

They were all talking about how they would prepare for it, etc. I'm sure the date has passed and I just want to gloat....


Here's JDX's informing on the impending attack on Iran:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=15285



Ther was also supposed to be an attack on Chicago based on the fact that emergency drills were being held there and and this fitted in with some numerology or other. Don't forget Alex Jones' bone shattering mega attack to help the neocons win the mid-term elections!

[brodski]

Here's JDX's informing on the impending attack on Iran:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=15285



Ther was also supposed to be an attack on Chicago based on the fact that emergency drills were being held there and and this fitted in with some numerology or other. Don't forget Alex Jones' bone shattering mega attack to help the neocons win the mid-term elections!

All these things did happen, including the Neocons winning the elections. But the sheeple in the MSM covered it up.

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh great. I went to a Unitarian meeting last week, and folks I liked were taken in by this Looser crap and are thinking there is something to it. :mad: :(

Keep up the good fight. There's still a long way to go.

[Kent1]

Oh great. I went to a Unitarian meeting last week, and folks I liked were taken in by this Looser crap and are thinking there is something to it. :mad: :(

Keep up the good fight. There's still a long way to go.
Here's a small report from the latest CT fest. Although honestly I don't see much new info.
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/11/12/18329055.php

[Pardalis]

How can he be so wrong for so long... :boggled:

[Pardalis]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_8886455805f7b8473.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2571)

WTF?

These people are a mockery. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Gather observations - evidence

Yeah, they gather the observations that will fit in their belief, and dismiss the most basic evidence that contradicts their confirmation bias. :mad:

Formulate hypothesis to explain

Oh, they are really good at that part... :mad:

Experiment to explain hypothesis- data

Have they ever done any??? :mad:

Refine or reject hypothesis,

Is this a f*ing joke? :mad: :mad:

more experiments

Yeah right... I'd like to see those one day. :mad:

Publish in peer-reviewed venues

Conspiracy theory sites are not considered "peer reviewed venues". :mad:

Repeat above cycle, others join in

And round and round we go. :mad:

Generate theory - mode of reality

WHAT??????

:faint:

[Kent1]

Its really pathetic....don't you know academic fraud....falsifying data are always hallmarks of good research.:boggled:

[T.A.M.]

What is pathetic, is that he (Steven Jones) is the most "scientific" of their entire bunch, and he cannot even adhere to his own slide show rules.

He, like the rest of the "scholars" are laughable.

TAM

[stateofgrace]

Fixed it for them.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/stateofgrace_photos/8886455805f7b8473.jpg

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_8886455805f7b8473.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2571)

WTF?

These people are a mockery. :mad: :mad: :mad:



Yeah, they gather the observations that will fit in their belief, and dismiss the most basic evidence that contradicts their confirmation bias. :mad:



Oh, they are really good at that part... :mad:



Have they ever done any??? :mad:



Is this a f*ing joke? :mad: :mad:



Yeah right... I'd like to see those one day. :mad:



Conspiracy theory sites are not considered "peer reviewed venues". :mad:



And round and round we go. :mad:



WHAT??????

:faint:

Compare with

Elements of the scientific method ( hypothetico-deductive):

Induction -- Forming a hypothesis by drawing general conclusions from existing data.

Deduction -- Making specific predictions based on the hypothesis.

Observation -- Gathering data, driven by hypothesis that tell us what to look for in nature.

Verification -- Testing the predictions against further observations to confirm or falsify the initial hypothesis.

[Kent1]

Here's a new video making the rounds sure to make the CT'ers angry.

Someone states its a dutch documentary showing a novice pilot hitting the Pentagon in a flight sim. I guess its not so tough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ5zZk9oj6A

[Pardalis]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_88864558c0c0eb17f.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2584)

[Bell]

Here's a new video making the rounds sure to make the CT'ers angry.

Someone states its a dutch documentary showing a novice pilot hitting the Pentagon in a flight sim. I guess its not so tough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ5zZk9oj6A

The pilot in that video had no experience except flying small aircraft. He had little practice on the simulator. They did the manouvre three times, all three times they hit the Pentagon. Conclusion in the end: "It's not impossible."

[Kent1]

The pilot in that video had no experience except flying small aircraft. He had little practice on the simulator. They did the manouvre three times, all three times they hit the Pentagon. Conclusion in the end: "It's not impossible."
With subtitles:
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-129851858930592160&q=zembla#27m40s

[Eos of the Eons]

Plastic knives? Is that what they are calling box cutters now?

[jhunter1163]

I have no actual flight experience whatsoever, and I was able to hit the Pentagon with a 757 in MS Flight Simulator. Well, to be absolutely fair, I did have about 30 hours in Cessnas in MSFS. Just enough to get me familiar with the controls and flight principles. I then went to the heavy iron. I executed a 360-degree turn from 7000 feet and hit the Pentagon smack in the middle.

What this proves, I'm not sure. I'll throw it open to the pilots on the forum. If I can do this in MSFS, could I do it in an actual plane?

[delphi_ote]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_88864558c0c0eb17f.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2584)
:D

[TjW]

I have no actual flight experience whatsoever, and I was able to hit the Pentagon with a 757 in MS Flight Simulator. Well, to be absolutely fair, I did have about 30 hours in Cessnas in MSFS. Just enough to get me familiar with the controls and flight principles. I then went to the heavy iron. I executed a 360-degree turn from 7000 feet and hit the Pentagon smack in the middle.

What this proves, I'm not sure. I'll throw it open to the pilots on the forum. If I can do this in MSFS, could I do it in an actual plane?

I don't have experience in 757s, but regarding MSFS and light aircraft, light aircraft are much easier to fly than the simulator. There's more feedback as to what's going on.
Landing requires precision because you're trying to arrive at a particular spot in three dimensions at a specific airspeed. Hopefully, you'll be able to use the airplane again.
I'm not an instructor, but the friends I've taken up for rides have been able to get to the point of driving around pretty reasonably in only a few minutes. Their turns aren't coordinated, they don't always maintain altitude or stay nailed on a heading, but as far as pointing the thing where they want to go and keeping it between stall and redline -- not a problem.
The idea that someone who was able to pass the commercial flight test would not be able to even steer an airliner is pretty ludicrous.

[brodski]

Plastic knives? Is that what they are calling box cutters now?

It seems that box cutters where not the only knives they used.
There has been speculation that plastic knives like similar to these http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/nfk.htm
where used.
Where are even more vicious than "box cutter" type knives.

[PerryLogan]

But my friends--proving that the "official story" is incredible or impossible proves the event absolutely cannot be a conspiracy!

Inasmuch as CTs can prove that the "official story" is absurd, they are defeating theiur own purpose, for the simple reason that no one trying to perpetrate a hoax would deliberately make up an outrageous or impossible cover story.

Why tell everyone the hijackers had box cutters when you could just as well say they had Uzis? Why plant impossible feats of flying in the story you're trying to sell the world?

Why would the perps make up a bad cover story? They obviously wouldn't.

So, in pointing out all sorts of impossibilities and absurdities in the "official story," the conspiracists are actually disproving their own theory. This is most ironical and strange.

(There is also the unlikelihood that a lame cover sdtory would fool everyone in the world except the CTs--something only a CT could believe.)

[stateofgrace]

But my friends--if the "official story" is incredible or impossible, the event absolutely cannot be a conspiracy!

No one trying to perpetrate a hoax would deliberately make up an outrageous or impossible cover story. Why tell everyone the hijackers had box cutters when you could just as well say they had Uzis? Why would the perps make up a bad cover story?

(Also, why would such a lame cover story fool everyone in the world except a few CTs, whose minds are always made up anyway? Answer: It wouldn't.)

So, in pointing out all sorts of impossibilities and absurdities in the "official story," the conspiracists are actually disproving their own theory. This is most ironical and strange.

I actually subscribe to this line of thinking myself. This conspiracy is so massive and so complex it simply would never work. Just look at a few examples of how it supposed to work and it is easy to sea that what is being proposed is preposterous.

Take for example the “Fake calls “from flight 93, how is this supposed to work? The cters what us to believe that all the calls from this flight couldn't possibly have happened so they were faked using special voice morphing technology. This involves untold amount of people and research .Since the calls could not possibly have been made why go to all the trouble. Why not just make no calls?

This can be extended to any area of this conspiracy. Some of the cters go on and on about the FDR from flight 77 showing that this flight could not have hit the Pentagon, so it is faked. Then why go to all the trouble why not just say the black boxes were destroyed and beyond recovery?

Every single area that these guys believe they are under covering actually shows that this conspiracy is simply unworkable.

WTC7, looked like a CD, so why allow it to be filmed? Why not demo it under cover of the cloud dust?

The Towers were packed with explosives prior to 911. So why risk damaging the explosives by flying planes into them? Why not simply blow them up?

911 were engineered to bring about the NWO and start wars so why point the finger at Bin Laden? Why not say it was Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Iran?

It simply goes on and on from fake passports and fake confession tapes to a fake black cloud from the crash of flight 93. Why fake it all, why bother going to all this trouble involving hundreds of people?

It is so unworkable, so silly that I am genuinely amazed at the following this movement seems to attract.

[uk_dave]

Yes, but part of the fun of being the new world order is that you get to enact fiendishly complex plots which make no logical sense and fail to acheive your ultimate goal of world domination.

Masochists all.

[Kent1]

In case someone missed it.... Kevin Barrett will no longer be teaching at UW-Madison.:D

http://www.wkowtv.com/index.php/news/story/p/pkid/25303

[tsire]

I noticed that on SLC today as well.

[Eos of the Eons]

It seems that box cutters where not the only knives they used.
There has been speculation that plastic knives like similar to these http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/nfk.htm
where used.
Where are even more vicious than "box cutter" type knives.

Ah, hardly the picnic plastic knives that the video seems to imply. Yeah, those hijackers wouldn't want something that could pass through those metal detector now would they?

[LashL]

Ah, hardly the picnic plastic knives that the video seems to imply. Yeah, those hijackers wouldn't want something that could pass through those metal detector now would they?

Nasty weapons, indeed. Troofers can scoff all they like but they are seriously dangerous and deadly weapons. Troofers probably also scoff at shanks fashioned out of such innocuous things as toothbrushes by prison inmates.

Trouble is, scoffing at such weapons won't make you any less dead when you're stabbed or sliced with one.

[Kent1]

Judy Wood is getting old so I thought I would post something different.
Some people may not have seen this somewhat new CT website.
They have a batch of papers. Some we've seen before, some new
http://www.studyof911.com/

Anyway check it out.

[Kent1]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/16/germany.911/index.html

9/11 hijackers' friend guilty of aiding murder

[Kent1]

Another good piece of news today is Mike's new page on Steven Jones "traces of thermate". Great source of information. Awesome job!

http://www.911myths.com/html/traces_of_thermate_at_the_wtc.html

[apathoid]

Funny exchange over at "the other forum" in which our friend PDohrety76 accuses another member of sock-puppetry.
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=826


Thanks for proving what??? Did you ever talked to a psychiatrist???

Yes and he told me that people who create sock puppets are mentally ill
:jaw-dropp :i:

[stateofgrace]

Funny exchange over at "the other forum" in which our friend PDohrety76 accuses another member of sock-puppetry.
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=826


:jaw-dropp :i:

Haven't you heard? Russell has set up a special room for the likes of PD. They can all go there and chat in private, away from spying eyes and mocking remarks. They all have their own special password to get in.

It's a room so special it has padded walls and ceilings. They also get issued their own special jacket as they enter,the ones with buckles at the back.

[Anti-sophist]

I already have access to their private room.



Just kidding. I wanted to send them off on a paranoid witchhunt. Ha ha, funny joke.

Or maybe I'm not.. maybe I am just spreading this as disinfo as part of a clever psyops.

[jon]

Haven't you heard? Russell has set up a special room for the likes of PD. They can all go there and chat in private, away from spying eyes and mocking remarks. They all have their own special password to get in.

It's a room so special it has padded walls and ceilings. They also get issued their own special jacket as they enter,the ones with buckles at the back.

They've got a forum that requires a username and password to log in (and seems to have slipped *way* down the google rankings). However, that's not enough - people still manage to find it and access it, and therefore take the p***, so they need an extra-secret password protected forum... Not sure what they'll do once us all-powerful Jews have cracked their wimpy password protection and gain access to all their SECRET knowlege.

[Sultanist]

Hey, Sultanist, good to see you again! Don't be such a stranger!

This is a plea for help to you, Gravy, and to all you good folks here at JREF.

I've been arguing all this nonsense on Internet Infidels for over a year. And tonight someone came up with something that's new to me. After this happened I posted over there and said I'm going to request the help of the JREF crowd because they're on top of all this crap far more than anyone else is.

Here's the post which first quotes the claim (it's challenging what happened with the Pentagon light poles) and provides the link which is supposed to back up the claim. And my reply to it follows. I think it will be self explanatory.
If ya'll know anything about that "animation" which was created by "johndoeX" please share it with us.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3937156#post3937156

Thanks in advance.

[stateofgrace]

Here you go,hope this helps.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66047

stateofgrace

[Gravy]

This is a plea for help to you, Gravy, and to all you good folks here at JREF.

I've been arguing all this nonsense on Internet Infidels for over a year. And tonight someone came up with something that's new to me. After this happened I posted over there and said I'm going to request the help of the JREF crowd because they're on top of all this crap far more than anyone else is.

Here's the post which first quotes the claim (it's challenging what happened with the Pentagon light poles) and provides the link which is supposed to back up the claim. And my reply to it follows. I think it will be self explanatory.
If ya'll know anything about that "animation" which was created by "johndoeX" please share it with us.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3937156#post3937156

Thanks in advance.This is real quick, because I'm headed out and don't have time to look at all the posts, but the animation seems to be the same one that doesn't take into account the deviation between true and magnetic north. That's been discussed elsewhere on this site. Maybe someone else can weigh in. I'll be back later.

Good to hear from you again, and keep fighting the good fight!

–Mark

[R.Mackey]

This is a plea for help to you, Gravy, and to all you good folks here at JREF.

I've been arguing all this nonsense on Internet Infidels for over a year. And tonight someone came up with something that's new to me. After this happened I posted over there and said I'm going to request the help of the JREF crowd because they're on top of all this crap far more than anyone else is.

Here's the post which first quotes the claim (it's challenging what happened with the Pentagon light poles) and provides the link which is supposed to back up the claim. And my reply to it follows. I think it will be self explanatory.
If ya'll know anything about that "animation" which was created by "johndoeX" please share it with us.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3937156#post3937156

Thanks in advance.
I'm not Gravy, but I once attempted a Robert de Niro impression...

The animation was done by the NTSB, not John Doe X.

John Doe X is a long-time Troother, had a falling out with the Loose Change guys, and started his own board called "Pilots for 9/11 Truth" or some such nonsense. He claims to be (and may be) a pilot, albeit not an active one, and argues from authority with abandon. He also gets easily flustered when confronted by a real pilot, notably Billzilla, for what it's worth.

We have already seen his argument against the animation. He claims, in a nutshell, that the data says Flight 77 was too high to hit those light poles. It turns out that his argument assumes the plane was on a straight line approach, rather than maneuvering right up to the last second, and is thus void. He also did not and has no idea how to compensate for errors in the aircraft's instruments -- which is critical given that the precision required in flightpath reconstruction to make his claim is on the order of five meters.

I dealt with John Doe X through his cheerleader/sockpuppet Skeptic4Sure, who has recently reappeared here, questions asked in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1972055#post1972055) and answers in this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1972315#post1972315).

Poster Anti-sophist put together an extremely thorough demolition of his claims, found in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1999949#post1999949). Most recently, he has also found a possible motivation (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2106208#post2106208) for John Doe X's irresponsible claims.

As usual, these delusions have no basis in reality, and thus are unlikely to be silenced through logical means. Good luck.

[Sultanist]

Thanks to all. You folks never cease to amaze me. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66047

[maccy]

A very brief arguement about the FDR if you don't want to get into all the techncical stuff in Anti-Sophist's paper (which JohnDoeX doesn't understand anyway).

The black box was found in the rubble of the Pentagon.

If the the black box data says the plane missed the Pentagon, why was it claimed to have been found in the Pentagon? If the data was faked, why wasn't it faked better?

If the black box data says that the plane did hit the Pentagon, what does it matter if the data suggests that it didn't it in quite the way the report says it did?

[CptColumbo]

Thanks to all. You folks never cease to amaze me. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66047

Well this is the sight of the "Amazing" Randi.

[SezMe]

I am a lurker in these CT threads but want to come out to ask about an assertion that I have not seen discussed here.

I went to a meeting today at which parts of the Loose Change 2 material was shown. Also shown was some guy discussing how the Pentagon could not have been hit by a plane. It was infuriating and I stood up and called it crap (literally) and was pelted by a barrage of woo in return. It was truly amazing.

One argument that was raised in support of the Towers being a CD was that a security guard on the ground floor of the first tower hit testified before the 9/11 Commission that he witnessed people coming up out of the basement, some with severe burns caused by an explosion, BEFORE the first plane hit. Further, the claim was that at least one of these persons survived and also testified before the 9/11 Commission. Finally, the claim was that the Commission ignored such testimony which is why it does not appear in the final report.

I could not refute the claim as I have never seen it discussed here. Has it? If so, can you give me a linky. If not, is there a list of people who testified before the 9/11 Commission and, even more importantly, is all testimony on record somewhere?

Does this claim sound familiar to any of you?

TIA.

[Oliver]

Well, we know this kind of Pedoherties but you can have
a lot of fun if you ask them this:

The problem i have is this:

I try to be the conspirator right now and i´m planning
to destroy the WTC:

How can i execute my plans the best way? Let´s see:
the 93 bombing is still in peoples mind and people believe
it was Al Qaida.

The best thing would be to blow it with bombs, film the
whole mess by installing a crew at the building making
a documentary and say AQ did it again.

No one would doubt it.

But this is to easy. We need some planes for no
reason to attract the whole world and as much
cameras as possible to hide our secret inside job.

Then we crash no plane into nowhere at shanksville
and we say nevertheless it was a plane.

We blow up the highest buildings at the WTC-site
and make it look like controlled demolitions.

We also crash no plane into the pentagon but to
make it as authentic and believable as possible we
say it was a plane nevertheless.

Then we forget to involve our CIA-Osama and because
we forgot it and because we forgot that he is available
to make some cool footage, we have to fake some lousy,
doubtable video-evidence.

We also forget to start an own investigation that
affirms that the AQ-Gang did it without doubts...

We forget to put Osama on top of the FBI-most
wanted list and we forget the Hijackers that are
well and alive.

We also forget to think about why we are blowing
up the WTC and therefore we need to fake the
WMD evidence to go to war.

Seriously: Who writes this stuff?

Nothing personal at all. I simply don´t get it.

[SezMe]

Oliver, if that post was in response to my query, it failed. I'm not looking to have fun, I'm looking for evidence.

[apathoid]

Oliver, if that post was in response to my query, it failed. I'm not looking to have fun, I'm looking for evidence.

I think you are talking about a janitor named Willie Rodriguez. He witnessed people who were badly burned by jet fuel in the area of the(utility?)elevator in the basement following what he thought was an explosion. He's aware of the official story stating that this explosion was merely jet fuel descending down an elevator shaft, accompained by a strong airburst. He also told Gravy that he remembered smelling jet fuel in the basement - so I dont really understand why he believes what he believes.

There has been some speculation about why he thinks he witnessed a blast before the impact. One reason could be the difference of the speed of sound in air and steel. I think someone here did a calculation of this and differece was about 1 second. So it would appear that you'd feel this explosion before you heard it.

CTers generally don't accept that its possible for the fuel to travel down the elevator shafts and explode. But, there is a precedent. Almost the same exact thing happened when a B25 struck the ESB in 1945..

[orphia nay]

FWIW, I've never heard claim that Rodriguez saw the guy with burns before the plane crash.

I always wondered how, if he was in the basement, could Rodriguez tell which explosions were the plane hitting and which were fuel or electrically caused. Notwithstanding the fact that he's a complete nutjob.

[hcmom]

FWIW, I've never heard claim that Rodriguez saw the guy with burns before the plane crash.

I always wondered how, if he was in the basement, could Rodriguez tell which explosions were the plane hitting and which were fuel or electrically caused. Notwithstanding the fact that he's a complete nutjob.

What, that's not qualification enough?

[apathoid]

FWIW, I've never heard claim that Rodriguez saw the guy with burns before the plane crash.
I havent heard that either, but we all know how easily these claims can mutate and get distorted by the seekers of Truth. :rolleyes:

I always wondered how, if he was in the basement, could Rodriguez tell which explosions were the plane hitting and which were fuel or electrically caused. Notwithstanding the fact that he's a complete nutjob.

I dont know that he's a complete nutjob. Its just that he went through a very traumatic experience that literally put him through hell on Earth, and for whatever reason, the guy truly believes that what he witnessed was a bomb.

[apathoid]

Just did a little investi-googling....

Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level. There were a total of fourteen people in the office at this time. As he was talking with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking." said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Company.

Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion's resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: "I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building." He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.

A fellow worker Felipe David came into the office. "He had been standing in front of a freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries." The skin on his face had been peeled away by the heat of the blast and he was horribly burned on thirty-three percent of his body. "He was burned so badly from the basement explosion that flesh was hanging from his face and both arms." William asks: "How could a jetliner hit 90 floors above and burn a man's arms and face to a crisp in the basement below within seconds of impact?"
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7762

[uk_dave]

Since he appears to be talking about events and sounds seperated by mere seconds, perhaps the first 'explosion' he heard was actually the plane hitting the tower and the second 'explosion' he heard was the jet fuel exploding out of the elevator shaft and all the other 'explosions' he heard were heavy bits of debris hitting the ground?

Certainly the sound of damage to the structure many floors above him would be transmitted down those columns and would sound much closer than it actually was.

I think it's very sad that an individual caught up in such a traumatic event is used by the woowoo's to bolster their godknowswhat theory.

[W6102LA]

Are there any of the 14 to 23 people who where also there backing his account ?

[maccy]

Also, if this is a contolled demolition, why would they set a bomb off in the basement before the plane hit? Surely in a controlled demolition the explosives initiate the collapse, which means they have to go off just before the building colapses. What would be the point of blowing up part of the basement levels ahead of time?

I think it wold also be hard to find a controlled demolition that bothered to weaken structures below ground level.

Finally, if you're inm the basement of the WTC you obviously can't see the plane hitting so you have to match your recollection of the sounds you heard to what you later discovered had happened.

[T.A.M.]

Also, if this is a contolled demolition, why would they set a bomb off in the basement before the plane hit? Surely in a controlled demolition the explosives initiate the collapse, which means they have to go off just before the building colapses. What would be the point of blowing up part of the basement levels ahead of time?

I think it wold also be hard to find a controlled demolition that bothered to weaken structures below ground level.

Finally, if you're inm the basement of the WTC you obviously can't see the plane hitting so you have to match your recollection of the sounds you heard to what you later discovered had happened.

These are very good points. His testimony actually flies in the face of a CD scenario, because the building stood for over an hour after the "Basement Explosion", so if this was anything in the way of a CD preplant, then what was its purpose?

As for recollecting what sound made what, he is purely speculating, based on his memory of an enormously traumatic day. He did not see the plane hit, and in the panic of the day, was later told that that explosion may have been the plane. Even the times can only be trusted as approximations. I mean can you imagine how reliable testimony from someone who went through that is? The generals, I would accept, the specifics I would greatly question. EOS.

TAM

[maccy]

Here's an interesting article about the problems of eyewitness memory

http://www.all-about-forensic-psychology.com/eyewitness-memory.html

I think you can add another level of doubt if the witness is talking about things they only heard.

Edited to add:

a couple of articles about how we perceive things

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=/connected/2004/05/05/ecfgorilla05.xml&pos=portal_puff1&_requestid=347199
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000B5245-6805-128A-A3C683414B7F0000&pageNumber=1&catID=9

[Sultanist]

Ladies and gentlemen of the JREF family,

The Sultan of 9-11 BS requires your assistance once again.

There has been a recent development on my board.
An individual has challenged me. He cites two pieces of "evidence" which he says indicate foul play.
One, the photos of severed I-beams which were taken at Ground Zero following the collapse.
Two, he says that seismic data provides evidence that explosions occurred at the time of collapse.
And three, he says I'm a "redneck writer".

Well, I'm afraid he's got my number on the "redneck writer" part. So I suppose one out of three really aint too bad for a 9-11 Truth Movementeer, considering their batting average is usually zero.

But it's the first two I need your help with.
I've responded and told him that it's now almost universally accepted by all but the most braindead Movementeers that those beams were severed with aceytelene torches to aid in the recovery operation.
And that, contrary to his contention, the "seismic data" actually fails to indicate anything which supports the explosive demolition "theory".

But, and this is understandable, he would like to have more than just my word for that. He would like me to provide some support for what I'm telling him.
Can you please dig down into your resource bag one more time and supply me with something I might offer him as support for my contentions?

Thanks once again in advance. And I promise to not make a habit of this.

By the way, this is the thread in question...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=186631

I think you will find the thread to be entertaining reading (I do my best).
And if you're a mind to, by all means please feel free to register at IIDB and jump right in. I need all the help I can get.

Yours (as always),

Sultanist

[Sultanist]

Oh, I almost forgot to mention.
If you read that thread all the way through, you will see that one of the Movementeers is saying that I should not rely on anyone else for any information
with which to make judgements about the "conspiracy theory". That I should
be willing to do all the research myself or keep my mouth shut.
That individual is actually doing his own experiments as we speak, at home, to prove that the WTC collapse did not occur as NIST concluded (I kid you not).
And once he's completed these very elaborate experiments, he's promised to
report back to that thread and reveal his results.
Should be interesting (in a bizarre sorta way).

[gumboot]

In regard to Willie's testimony...

It is worth nothing that the specific injuries he describes - that being burns in which the skin is hanging off the body - are very specific to fuel fireballs.

An actual explosion from explosives is a concussive blast - anyone actually close enough to the fireball to be burned would be ripped apart by the over pressure.

Fuel fireballs, however, expand relatively slowly, and produce less over pressure than high explosives (this is not to be confused with fuel air explosives which also produce high over pressure). In addition the rapid heat produces a unique type of burn called a "flash burn". Essentially it burns top layers of flesh very rapidly, however it does not penetrate to damage tissue. As a result the outer layers of skin look very badly burnt and sheet off in large chunks, often hanging off the body, however the level of tissue damage is usually not very severe (suffering similar area of burns from regular fire would almost certainly kill you).

The key thing to note is virtually every single account of "explosions" (I mean actual witness testimony of a fireball, not just sound) in the WTC has three things in common:

1) Witnessed in the vicinity of the elevator shafts
2) Smell of kerosene
3) Victims with burnt skin hanging off bodies

All three of these are entirely consistant with the officially presented argument that jet fuel spilled down the elevator shafts and ignited. None of these three facts is consistant with CT claims of controlled demolition.

It's really quite an open and shut case.

-Gumboot

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ladies and gentlemen of the JREF family,

The Sultan of 9-11 BS requires your assistance once again.

There has been a recent development on my board.
An individual has challenged me. He cites two pieces of "evidence" which he says indicate foul play.
One, the photos of severed I-beams which were taken at Ground Zero following the collapse.
Two, he says that seismic data provides evidence that explosions occurred at the time of collapse.
And three, he says I'm a "redneck writer".

Well, I'm afraid he's got my number on the "redneck writer" part. So I suppose one out of three really aint too bad for a 9-11 Truth Movementeer, considering their batting average is usually zero.

But it's the first two I need your help with.
I've responded and told him that it's now almost universally accepted by all but the most braindead Movementeers that those beams were severed with aceytelene torches to aid in the recovery operation.
And that, contrary to his contention, the "seismic data" actually fails to indicate anything which supports the explosive demolition "theory".

But, and this is understandable, he would like to have more than just my word for that. He would like me to provide some support for what I'm telling him.
Can you please dig down into your resource bag one more time and supply me with something I might offer him as support for my contentions?

Thanks once again in advance. And I promise to not make a habit of this.

By the way, this is the thread in question...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=186631

I think you will find the thread to be entertaining reading (I do my best).
And if you're a mind to, by all means please feel free to register at IIDB and jump right in. I need all the help I can get.

Yours (as always),

Sultanist

http://www.911myths.com/html/seismic_record.html
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm#_Toc144446005
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=5&c=y

[Sultanist]

http://www.911myths.com/html/seismic_record.html
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm#_Toc144446005
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=5&c=y

Much obliged, Arkan. Hopefully these links will have the desired effect... http://www.eyecravedvd.com/forums/images/smilies/pcguru.gif

[SezMe]

I'll add my thanks as well. Very good, useful information about Rodriguez and I will pursue the links later today. But one part still remains open: did he testify before the 9/11 commission? Did the burned guy do so? Or did both just give their testimony to staff investigators?

Again, my thanks.

[gumboot]

I'll add my thanks as well. Very good, useful information about Rodriguez and I will pursue the links later today. But one part still remains open: did he testify before the 9/11 commission? Did the burned buy do so? Or did both just give their testimony to staff investigators?

Again, my thanks.



I would imagine, given the focus of the commission, that they did not interview witnesses of the attacks of that nature. They weren't investigating 9/11, they were investigating the conduct and potential security failure of government leading up to 9/11. It was a "how was this able to happen?" investigation, not a "what happened?" investigation.

-Gumboot

[Jeff Wagg]

Yep. He's also a real estate agent.

Folks, just to clear up some confusion here. There is a Tom Foti who is a well-respected real estate agent and it is NOT the same Tom Foti who is the musician. If you could, please try to distinguish between the two by saying "Tom Foti the musician" when you're referring to the singer.

This thread has caused the non-musician Tom Foti a great deal of concern, and there's no reason to associate him with 9/11 conspiracy theories.

[T.A.M.]

god help us if a "John Smith" becomes a CTer.

lol

TAM:)

[Gravy]

Folks, just to clear up some confusion here. There is a Tom Foti who is a well-respected real estate agent and it is NOT the same Tom Foti who is the musician. If you could, please try to distinguish between the two by saying "Tom Foti the musician" when you're referring to the singer.

This thread has caused the non-musician Tom Foti a great deal of concern, and there's no reason to associate him with 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Tom Foti the musician/conspiracy nut also claims to be a real estate agent, as Abby says. Perhaps we should just refer to him as "Baaaaybe Tom Foti," after one of his pet expressions.

ETA: I will clarify this issue with the conspiracy Tom. If he's not in real estate, I'll let everyone know.

Note: this Tom is NOT the conspiracy Tom: http://www.tomfoti-re.com/ He looks like a good guy to have a beer with. The conspiracy Tom is the one who OWES me a six-pack of beer.

[Gravy]

I heard back from Baaaaaybe Tom. He is also in real estate. I look forward to the mortgage-antimortgage collision when those two meet.

[60hzxtl]

"Tom Foti the musician" when you're referring to the singer.



Make sure to put Quotes around "musician".

[VespaGuy]

Does anybody still frequent the Loose Change Forums? I've been there since they were overhauled and have been on my best behaviour - no name calling, no trolling, staying in my "Skeptics Area" cage for the most part.

For some reason I can't get back on the boards this afternoon. I haven't done anything against the forum rules. The only thing I've done is to ask people to supply proof of the claims they make and sources for the quotes they supply.

If anyone still lurks over there, can you see if "A Very Sly Denial" is banned?

Thanks.

(sorry for the derail)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Does anybody still frequent the Loose Change Forums? I've been there since they were overhauled and have been on my best behaviour - no name calling, no trolling, staying in my "Skeptics Area" cage for the most part.

For some reason I can't get back on the boards this afternoon. I haven't done anything against the forum rules. The only thing I've done is to ask people to supply proof of the claims they make and sources for the quotes they supply.

If anyone still lurks over there, can you see if "A Very Sly Denial" is banned?

Thanks.

(sorry for the derail)
I think it's down atm.

[VespaGuy]

Thanks Arkan. I wouldn't normally assume "bannination" so quickly if I hadn't seen it done so often over there.

[Dog Town]

Just got back from Hawaii today. I notice they blocked the board, from public view. Is Merc( aka That onedood, and S4S here) in the process of taking the second one down, by starting all the infighting, again? Just as well, less time spent by me, laughing at them.

Gotta hand it to Merc and Lyte, they have done more damage to the LC Twoofers than we could ever hope to. Good Job!

DT

[Dog Town]

Oops... did not see the above post took! The board broke as I was posting. Conspiracy?

[chipmunk stew]

I just noticed this on the Loose Change homepage:
12/1/2006Added the Music (http://www.loosechange911.com/music.htm) section to the Loose Change tabs, which will eventually direct you to our new label, Third i Records. (http://www.thirdirecords.com/)

[Bell]

I just noticed this on the Loose Change homepage:

Ace! Lookit! New opportunity awaits!!

[SezMe]

I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?

[A W Smith]

I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?

Will a portion of a video be ok? look at the top center of 7. This was posted in the WTC7 Extensive South Side Damage Evidence (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=70999) thread started by CloudshipsRule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51FIPMlrFf4

[apathoid]

I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?


http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

Page 24 has an excellent shot of the 18 storey gash in the SW corner.

[babazaroni]

http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

Page 24 has an excellent shot of the 18 storey gash in the SW corner.

Just to be precise, the report says the sw corner damage went from floor 18, to floor 8.

[pgwenthold]

I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?


Others will provide pics, I'm sure, but I will just point out that there is something odd about the comment that "I can't come up with any good pics of the damage because it is obscured by all the smoke pouring out of the building."

Where does the smoke come from, smoke bombs? Not quite....

[Sultanist]

Fellow skeptics,

Please help!

I'm over at the Internet Infidels board. A poster questioned NIST's explanation of the Twin Tower collapses.

So in response, I posted this...
And here's a good explanation of how and why the towers collapsed.
http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm

Following that, another poster replied with this post...

Where does it provide the distribution of mass within the building? Just about every place that provides a specification says there were 100,000 tons of steel in each tower. How was this distributed among the 117 floors if you include the 7 basements. The concrete is a whole different story since NIST doesn't provide a number and various sites give different numbers. I have seen figures from 25,000 tons to more than 600,000 tons.

So how much mass was below the points of impact? How much steel had to get how hot in 56 minutes for WTC2 and 102 minutes for WTC1 and why isn't this information readily available for a building constructed before the moon landing? The firemen climbed to the 78th floor of the south tower and reported two isolated pockets of fire. There is a picture of a woman standing in the opening where the planes went in before the north tower collapsed so how was it hot enough to weaken steel?
All that starts at the bottom of the first page of this thread...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=193120

I told this gentleman JREF is the place to go to get him his answers.
Would you be so kind as to address his concerns.
I'm linking him to your thread so he will be reading what you say.

Sultanist

[edit]p.s. the thread starter's initial post (the OP) in that thread (which is Killtown's interview of the EMT) also needs debunking. So please feel free. Anything you post here I will repost over there.

[The Doc]

Start off by pointing out that there was actually 200,000 tons of steel in each tower, not 100,000 as he claims.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=WTC+200%2C000+tons&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Then you should note that NIST themselves actually state that only light fire activity was observed on the 78th floor, which is exactly the floor Orio J Palmer (The firefighter) was reporting from. The NIST fire analysis actually has graphs that show 2 isolated pockets of fire.

The fact here is that just because there were 2 isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor that could be taken down with 2 lines, doesn't mean that the fires were exclusive to that floor.

The fires were at their worst around the 83rd and 84th floors. Not the 78th.

There's so much more that could be delved into with these topics. Tell him to come and post his concerns here and we'll address them.

[~enigma~]

Start off by pointing out that there was actually 200,000 tons of steel in each tower, not 100,000 as he claims.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=WTC+200%2C000+tons&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Then you should note that NIST themselves actually state that only light fire activity was observed on the 78th floor, which is exactly the floor Orio J Palmer (The firefighter) was reporting from. The NIST fire analysis actually has graphs that show 2 isolated pockets of fire.

The fact here is that just because there were 2 isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor that could be taken down with 2 lines, doesn't mean that the fires were exclusive to that floor.

The fires were at their worst around the 83rd and 84th floors. Not the 78th.

There's so much more that could be delved into with these topics. Tell him to come and post his concerns here and we'll address them.Doc dude,
You are aware that there never was going to be anything other than a rescue effort. There wasn't any water supply to speak of. That is what I don't really follow about all these small fire claims. I mean a match can burn a wooden home (even a three story one - LOOK NO E) to the ground if the fires are unfought.

[The Doc]

Doc dude,
You are aware that there never was going to be anything other than a rescue effort. There wasn't any water supply to speak of. That is what I don't really follow about all these small fire claims. I mean a match can burn a wooden home (even a three story one - LOOK NO E) to the ground if the fires are unfought.

Yeah I know that. But in the hypothetical situation that water and lines were available to fight the fire - it would have been much, much more than 2 lines for 2 pockets of fire on 1 floor.

I see what you are saying though.

[~enigma~]

Yeah I know that. But in the hypothetical situation that water and lines were available to fight the fire - it would have been much, much more than 2 lines for 2 pockets of fire on 1 floor.

I see what you are saying though.
Anybody want to do a quick calculation on the water pressure needed to run just one line up 78 floors and still have enough pressure left to fight a fire? I mean woologic is really funny...

[Gravy]

The figure of 100,000 tons of steel per tower is approximately correct.

[The Doc]

The figure of 100,000 tons of steel per tower is approximately correct.

Oh crap lol. My bad.

200,000 for both, not each.

[~enigma~]

The figure of 100,000 tons of steel per tower is approximately correct. Hey Padwan Roberts,

Have you heard any 'estimate' of what the PSI required to run one line up 78 storys to fight a fire would be?

[The Doc]

Hey Padwan Roberts,

Have you heard any 'estimate' of what the PSI required to run one line up 78 storys to fight a fire would be?

I can imagine it would be huge.

[~enigma~]

I can imagine it would be huge.
Yeah but an exact number would be a great way to shut the woowoos up so they cant' argue that claim. Baseless really since I doubt that any fire trucks in NYC would be able to pump water almost 1000 feet and retain enough pressure to effectively fight anything bigger than a single match.

[Gravy]

One FDNY high pressure pumper truck, with an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi, was in theory capable of supplying the standpipe system in one tower, if somehow the gravity tanks and manual firefighting pumps couldn't supply water to the needed floors but the standpipe system below was intact. That's not a great deal of water, though.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what pressure would be needed for a hose run of that length (winding around the stairs). I don't know if hoses are built to take such pressure even if such a run was possible. I know some standard fire hoses are tested for a working pressure of 400 psi (burst pressure would be much higher), but I don't know what the FDNY standard was. Special high-pressure hoses are used to connect high-pressure pumpers to standpipes, but those aren't the type of hoses carried as rollups.

[Mr.D]

Have you heard any 'estimate' of what the PSI required to run one line up 78 storys to fight a fire would be?


Time to pull out the back of the envelope again.

Density of liquid water is approx 1000 kg / m^3.
WTC height is 1,368 ft.

So, the mass of a column of water 78 WTC stories high is

M =~ (1368 ft / 110 stories) * 78 stories * (1000 kg / m^3)
M =~ 295667 kg / m^2

Which puts a pressure of

P =~ 651834 lbs * (2.54 / 100)^2
P =~ 420 lbs / in^2

at the bottom.

So, a water pump would have to have an output pressure of 420 PSI just to "hold up" a static column of water that tall.

I haven't been able to google any minimum pressure@flow rate numbers for effective firefighting, but you'd have to have at least that much pressure at that flow rate left after you account for flow resistance through ~1000 ft of pipes and hoses.

I'm not up on my fluid dynamics, but just going just from that 420 PSI number, and google-assisted guestimating of 1000's of GPM, I'm pretty confident that the NYFD doesn't have any mobile (in the sense that a firetruck is mobile) pumps capable of pushing enough water fast enough from the ground floor to put out more than small, isolated fires.

ETA: Or instead of spending half an hour researching, writing, double-checking and editing, I could just wait for Gravy to consult his "Reference Binder of Doom" (+5 to hit CT'ers) :D :blush:

[~enigma~]

One FDNY high pressure pumper truck, with an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi, was in theory capable of supplying the standpipe system in one tower, if somehow the gravity tanks and manual firefighting pumps couldn't supply water to the needed floors but the standpipe system below was intact. That's not a great deal of water, though.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what pressure would be needed for a hose run of that length (winding around the stairs). I don't know if hoses are built to take such pressure even if such a run was possible. I know some standard fire hoses are tested for a working pressure of 400 psi (burst pressure would be much higher), but I don't know what the FDNY standard was. Special high-pressure hoses are used to connect high-pressure pumpers to standpipes, but those aren't the type of hoses carried as rollups.I read that the hose carried by each fireman was a 30 foot length and the intention behind that was to knock aside fire to allow egress to those being rescued. All i know is the claim that there could have been firefighting done is in itself ludicrous.

[~enigma~]

Time to pull out the back of the envelope again.


So, a water pump would have to have an output pressure of 420 PSI just to "hold up" a static column of water that tall.

I haven't been able to google any minimum pressure@flow rate numbers for effective firefighting, but you'd have to have at least that much pressure at that flow rate left after you account for flow resistance through ~1000 ft of pipes and hoses.

I'm not up on my fluid dynamics, but just going just from that 420 PSI number, and google-assisted guestimating of 1000's of GPM, I'm pretty confident that the NYFD doesn't have any mobile (in the sense that a firetruck is mobile) pumps capable of pushing enough water fast enough from the ground floor to put out more than small, isolated fires.

ETA: Or instead of spending half an hour researching, writing, double-checking and editing, I could just wait for Gravy to consult his "Reference Binder of Doom" (+5 to hit CT'ers) :D :blush:
Thank you....now can we tatoo this on the forehead of the next woo that makes the idiot isolated fire claim?

[Mr.D]

Thank you....now can we tatoo this on the forehead of the next woo that makes the idiot isolated fire claim?


I dunno. Gravy's binder probably has way too many pages to tattoo on a forehead.

[Mr. Skinny]

One FDNY high pressure pumper truck, with an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi, was in theory capable of supplying the standpipe system in one tower, if somehow the gravity tanks and manual firefighting pumps couldn't supply water to the needed floors but the standpipe system below was intact. That's not a great deal of water, though.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what pressure would be needed for a hose run of that length (winding around the stairs). I don't know if hoses are built to take such pressure even if such a run was possible. I know some standard fire hoses are tested for a working pressure of 400 psi (burst pressure would be much higher), but I don't know what the FDNY standard was. Special high-pressure hoses are used to connect high-pressure pumpers to standpipes, but those aren't the type of hoses carried as rollups.
I doubt that there is a fire engine capable of delivering 700 psi at any flow. Most stationary fire pumps deliver between 1,000 - 1,500 gpm at 100 - 150 psi. I would imagine that fire engines might have a 2,000 gpm at 175 psi or something around that, but I doubt it would approach 420 psi (I areee with Mr. D's calcs), much less 700 psi. Sorry, my google-fu is weak or I'd give you a cite on this claim.

Anyhow, a fire on the 78th floor could not have been fought with hose lines laid from the fire engines at street level, IMHO. Either a gravity fed system and/or a standpipe with booster pumps would have been required.

Does anyone know if those systems were disabled by the inital crash?

[njslim]

FDNY has several high pressure pumpers using triple stage pumps (most
apparatus use two stage or even single) - Engine 6 "CHINATOWN TIGERS"
was one of these units (have the memorial T shirt listing the members who
died on 9/11) The high pressure pumpers are designed to tie into the sprinkler/standpipe systems to boost the pressure in these systems. High rise buildings (and many smaller buildings) have fire pumps in their mechanical
rooms to pump water into the sprinkers and stairway standpipes. Most fire
hoses (2 1/2 - 3" diameter) are rated at 400 psi working pressures - NFPA
regs require that all hose carried be tested annually (bitch of a job!). I
believe we still carry some hose rated at 600 psi. Because many apparatus
now carry large diameter (4 - 5") which can carry greater volumes of water
at lower pressures the need for high pressure hoses for long hose lays at
high pressure to maximize water volumes is diminished. FF for operations in
large or tall structures carry high rise kits of rolled hose ("donuts" or in FDNY
speak "rollups") 2 1/2" hose, which is what FDNY uses for high rise comes
normally in 50 ft lenghts (can get smaller). High rise kits also contain tools
(hose wrenches, couplers for differing thread gauges or genders (male-male,
female-female couplers) . The fires in the 78th floor sky lobby described by
Chief Palmer even if crews could reach would not know if water was available
to fight - assuming that pipes are intact and water supply from tanks above
is available. As other posters have demonstrated pumping water from street
would need pressures over 400psi just to overcome gravity "head" pressure
(.445 psi per foot).

[~enigma~]

O great njslim, I applaud your very informative post and give you many thanks. As a few people here asked, the NIST report does state that the water supply was severed by the impact of the planes.

FDNY has several high pressure pumpers using triple stage pumps (most
apparatus use two stage or even single) - Engine 6 "CHINATOWN TIGERS"
was one of these units (have the memorial T shirt listing the members who
died on 9/11) The high pressure pumpers are designed to tie into the sprinkler/standpipe systems to boost the pressure in these systems. High rise buildings (and many smaller buildings) have fire pumps in their mechanical
rooms to pump water into the sprinkers and stairway standpipes. Most fire
hoses (2 1/2 - 3" diameter) are rated at 400 psi working pressures - NFPA
regs require that all hose carried be tested annually (bitch of a job!). I
believe we still carry some hose rated at 600 psi. Because many apparatus
now carry large diameter (4 - 5") which can carry greater volumes of water
at lower pressures the need for high pressure hoses for long hose lays at
high pressure to maximize water volumes is diminished. FF for operations in
large or tall structures carry high rise kits of rolled hose ("donuts" or in FDNY
speak "rollups") 2 1/2" hose, which is what FDNY uses for high rise comes
normally in 50 ft lenghts (can get smaller). High rise kits also contain tools
(hose wrenches, couplers for differing thread gauges or genders (male-male,
female-female couplers) . The fires in the 78th floor sky lobby described by
Chief Palmer even if crews could reach would not know if water was available
to fight - assuming that pipes are intact and water supply from tanks above
is available. As other posters have demonstrated pumping water from street
would need pressures over 400psi just to overcome gravity "head" pressure
(.445 psi per foot).

[Mr. Skinny]

FDNY has several high pressure pumpers using triple stage pumps (most
apparatus use two stage or even single) - Engine 6 "CHINATOWN TIGERS"
was one of these units (have the memorial T shirt listing the members who
died on 9/11) The high pressure pumpers are designed to tie into the sprinkler/standpipe systems to boost the pressure in these systems.
Do you know the output flow and pressure from Engine 6?

(.445 psi per foot).
I always use 0.433 ppf.

[Gravy]

I doubt that there is a fire engine capable of delivering 700 psi at any flow. It does sound like an improbable figure, but I wasn't making it up. The FDNY high-pressure pumpers in use as of 9/11/01 had an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi.

[The Doc]

This document will back Gravy's figure up
http://sageauthoring.com/fdny/construction/hr01.pdf

Page 15

Fire
Floors

Floors
101 - 110

Controlling Nozzle
650 psi

Fog Nozzle
700 psi

[Mr. Skinny]

It does sound like an improbable figure, but I wasn't making it up. The FDNY high-pressure pumpers in use as of 9/11/01 had an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi.
I didn't think you were making it up, Mark. Your original statement mentioned it to be a theoretical pump flow/press (at least the way I intrepreted it), and my experience has all been with conventional pumpers of 1-2,000 gal pumpers like those mentioned in Doc's document below.

So, I'm now smarter than I was last night. :)

This document will back Gravy's figure up
http://sageauthoring.com/fdny/construction/hr01.pdf

Page 15

Fire
Floors

Floors
101 - 110

Controlling Nozzle
650 psi

Fog Nozzle
700 psi
Thanks, Doc. Page 8 lists a requirement for one pumper with a 500gpm @ 700 psi. flow.

Anyhow, appreciate that your google-fu and patience was better than mine.

[njslim]

Pumpers are rated at the maximum gallonage of water which can pump (ie
2000 gpm like our 2001 Pierce) - this is dependent on how pump is configured
volume vs pressure. Our pump is a 2 stage design which has twin impellers
Setting for gallonage the impellers pump in parallel to push the maximum
amount of water, in pressure impellers are arranged in series to boost
pressure. The consequence is that the gallonage is halved - twice the
pressures, half the volume (gallons). The FDNY high rise pumpers have
3 stage pumps, unfortunately don't know too much on how pump flow
hydraulics, pressure vs gallonage of these models.

[Mr. Skinny]

Thanks, slim. I see I have much to learn about mobile fire engines.

As an aside, but still applicable to the topic; do you know if the pumps on trucks are run at "churn" for their acceptance tests? That is, are they required to be capable of producing 120% of rated flow and pressure?

If so, would an engine operator on scene at a fire every run the truck pump at churn if the demand called for it, or is that against procedure?

[njslim]

One of the worse things can do is cavitate a pump - run it at such speeds
that the impeller actually create steam bubbles as the blades contact the
water. Sounds like someone threw bunch of gravel in pump - afterwards would have to replace the impellers. You can actually begin to boil the
water in the pump if run it long enough without suffiecent water flow through
the pump to cool it. Pumps have tempature gaugues to tell operator the
temp of the water in the pump. Operators have series of gaugues telling
what inlet presure of water coming in - how to be careful dont overrun the
water flow coming in. Called pulling a vacuum. Gaugue to tell you outlet
pressure from pump, throttle control to speed up/down the pump. Also
have a laminated chart of pressures depending on size of lines and tips
being used - 110-135psi for 1 3/4 hand lines, 70-80 psi for 2 1/2 hand lines
50 psi for deck gun (master stream)

[Mr. Skinny]

One of the worse things can do is cavitate a pump - run it at such speeds
that the impeller actually create steam bubbles as the blades contact the
water. Sounds like someone threw bunch of gravel in pump - afterwards would have to replace the impellers. You can actually begin to boil the
water in the pump if run it long enough without suffiecent water flow through
the pump to cool it. Pumps have tempature gaugues to tell operator the
temp of the water in the pump. Operators have series of gaugues telling
what inlet presure of water coming in - how to be careful dont overrun the
water flow coming in. Called pulling a vacuum. Gaugue to tell you outlet
pressure from pump, throttle control to speed up/down the pump. Also
have a laminated chart of pressures depending on size of lines and tips
being used - 110-135psi for 1 3/4 hand lines, 70-80 psi for 2 1/2 hand lines
50 psi for deck gun (master stream)
Great info, slim.

I was aware of the cavitation issue. I don't think a pump is supposed to cavitate at 120% though.

All the other info on fire engine trucks is rather fascinating to me. Makes me want to go learn how to operate one!

[Iggy]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!

[MikeW]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked...
By David Ray Griffin, though. I don't think that'll help quite as much as you believe.

[Gravy]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!Nah. I have a spy who saw the same preview. Different dog, same steaming pile. You will not be a single step closer to your goal at the end of 2007 than you are now, because you have absolutely no evidence to support your claims. Thanks for stopping by and giving us a laugh, though!

[jon]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!

Explosive interviews. Wow - do you mean people have known about smoking guns all this time, but waited until the final cut of Loose Change to tell the world :jaw-dropp And Dylan's sitting on this proof until he can get a studio to pay for a cinema release...you'd think he'd want to release it sooner so we can remove those he's proved to be mass murderers from government more quickly. Oh well, he's got to pay the bills somehow, I guess.

C'mon - if the film really proves what you think it does, it'll change history. Someone leak a copy onto youtube or bittorrent. Go on, I dare you...I mean, the world really can't wait :D

[Brainache]

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!

Yep they broke it alright. Smashed it to pieces. They broke the truth so bad that even its mother wouldn't recognise it.

[GlennB]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!

Wow. It's not due out till 9/11/07, last I heard (The Guardian)
And you're in the UK!
You're a privileged source indeed.

[Coritani]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!

I'm sure that twoofers said something similar to that about LC2E. And look what happened to that.

[HyJinX]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!

I think you've mistaken "Loose Change Final Cut" for "Loose Women Finally Here"...aren't you? IMMENSE?...probably...but it has nothing to do with 9/11 or the truth. EXPLOSIVE?...sure...but nothing to do with thermite/ate. The only thing alight is your flashlight under your covers after you're sure that mommy has gone to bed.

Nice try though. Get to bed...you have school in the morning.

Nighty Night.

[The Silver Shadow]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!
Broke, by which it means that the money will dry up.

Even if it goes into theatres, the film is more likely to break rather than make. Dylan's gambling in a losing hand...

[T.A.M.]

Explosive interviews. Wow - do you mean people have known about smoking guns all this time, but waited until the final cut of Loose Change to tell the world :jaw-dropp And Dylan's sitting on this proof until he can get a studio to pay for a cinema release...you'd think he'd want to release it sooner so we can remove those he's proved to be mass murderers from government more quickly. Oh well, he's got to pay the bills somehow, I guess.

C'mon - if the film really proves what you think it does, it'll change history. Someone leak a copy onto youtube or bittorrent. Go on, I dare you...I mean, the world really can't wait :D

This is something I often bring up with the truth crowd, in particular Lyte and Merc, who also claim to have evidence that will prove to the entire world 9/11 was an inside job...

If that is true, than you are guilty, right now, of concealing evidence of a crime. That in itself is a crime, as is hampering or tampering with an crime investigation. You see, the investigation of 9/11 is still on going. The case hasnt been closed, so if you, and LTW, and Merc, and Lyte are withholding evidence in that investigation, even for a day, or a week, you are committing a crime yourselves.

TAM:)

[Mr. Skinny]

This is something I often bring up with the truth crowd, in particular Lyte and Merc, who also claim to have evidence that will prove to the entire world 9/11 was an inside job...
That's OK in a general sense, I suppose. I wouldn't feel too threatened by it though if I were Lyte or Merc. First you need to find someone willing to prosecute.


If that is true, than you are guilty, right now, of concealing evidence of a crime. That in itself is a crime, as is hampering or tampering with an crime investigation. You see, the investigation of 9/11 is still on going. The case hasnt been closed, so if you, and LTW, and Merc, and Lyte are withholding evidence in that investigation, even for a day, or a week, you are committing a crime yourselves.

Well, even if it's true, they aren't guilty until convicted by a jury.

It's an intresting argument for arguments sake, but it's not going to convince them to stop doing what they are doing. *shrug*

[jon]

This is something I often bring up with the truth crowd, in particular Lyte and Merc, who also claim to have evidence that will prove to the entire world 9/11 was an inside job...

If that is true, than you are guilty, right now, of concealing evidence of a crime. That in itself is a crime, as is hampering or tampering with an crime investigation. You see, the investigation of 9/11 is still on going. The case hasnt been closed, so if you, and LTW, and Merc, and Lyte are withholding evidence in that investigation, even for a day, or a week, you are committing a crime yourselves.

TAM:)

Even aside from the legal situation, if Avery really has evidence proving an inside job there's an ethical imperative to release it *now*. People are currently dying and suffering because of the belief that Al Qaeda was behind 9/11; the longer he delays the more blood there is on his hands. If Avery holds off releasing his Proof because he wants to make money from a film deal or he's worried about a few debunkers, Avery's a scum sucking bottom dweller.

On the other hand, LC-final cut might be the same big, steaming pile of BS that the other films were. In that case, it's a (another) insult to all those who were murdered on 9/11. Doing this a 3rd time means that Avery is a scum sucking bottom dweller.

Have I missed any alternatives here :D

[Mr. Skinny]

Even aside from the legal situation, if Avery really has evidence proving an inside job there's an ethical imperative to release it *now*. People are currently dying and suffering because of the belief that Al Qaeda was behind 9/11; the longer he delays the more blood there is on his hands. If Avery holds off releasing his Proof because he wants to make money from a film deal or he's worried about a few debunkers, Avery's a scum sucking bottom dweller.


Again, this argument certainly takes the moral high ground, but I'd be interested to see if any of the lawyers on this forum would take on the case charging any truther with withholding evidence of crimes comitted by the US government.

ETA: I realize I disregarded the first few words of your post...but the legal argument is the interesting point to me. Sorry.

[T.A.M.]

The legal criminal aspect of the argument, was merely a vehicle to convey the amorality of all that these "truth" videographers do and create.

I agree with you, skinny, that pratically, it is an empty threat to accuse them of a crime, but in a moral sense, it is exactly what they are guilty, IN MY EYES, of.

Cheers

TAM:)

[Mr. Skinny]

The legal criminal aspect of the argument, was merely a vehicle to convey the amorality of all that these "truth" videographers do and create.
That's what I sorta thought, TAM

I agree with you, skinny, that pratically, it is an empty threat to accuse them of a crime, but in a moral sense, it is exactly what they are guilty, IN MY EYES, of.

Cheers

TAM:)
Thanks for responding, TAM.

[R.Mackey]

I have just seen a secret preview of Loose Change Final Cut and it is IMMENSE. All of it's facts have been checked and it also includes some explosive interviews that are going to set 9/11 Truth alight.

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!
You're kidding, right?

Loose Change was a fact-free, clumsy, "pod"-ridden piece of garbage. So bad, in fact, it had to be redone.

So we got Loose Change: Second Edition. It removed the pod nonsense, since apparently even potheads in Upstate couldn't believe that one, but still made no sense at all. We keep asking if there's even one claim they made in that bit of video that was true, and we haven't found one yet.

And you think Loose Change III: Return of the Troothers is going to be different?

I believe we're all familiar with the following expression: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

And here you are, lining up to be fooled for a third time. Congratulations.

[Dog Town]

2007 is going to be the year 9/11 Truth truly broke!

5355

You got the broke part right! As in broken...but you six to twleve percenter's, don't rate much anywho!

[~enigma~]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Reminds me of good ole George when he said...fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again. :)

[R.Mackey]

Reminds me of good ole George when he said...fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again. :)

A lot of people use that as evidence that W just isn't that bright. Well, that's unfair. It could simply be that he can't read the teleprompter very well.

Back to Loose Change III: Loosers in Paradise, it occurs to me that, perhaps, they have checked all of their facts.

There probably weren't any to check.

:Banane51: Hiyooo! Thank you, thank you! Remember to tip your server, folks, you've been great.

[Dog Town]

Remember to tip your server, folks...

This is always worth repeating. I will add the word, well.

[Josh Redstone]

And here you are, lining up to be fooled for a third time. Congratulations.

Four times if we count Loose Change 2nd Edition: Re-cut :D

[Iggy]

Loose Change Final Edit os gonna be shown at the Cannes Film Festival. Yesssssssssss!

[Iggy]

You Reffers are gonna be covered from head to toe in smeggy egg.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Loose Change Final Edit os gonna be shown at the Cannes Film Festival. Yesssssssssss!
So?

[Iggy]

I cant post a link to the Final Edit but....

[LashL]

Loose Change Final Edit os gonna be shown at the Cannes Film Festival. Yesssssssssss!

I wouldn't count on that if I were you.

[Iggy]

Cannes would be a mighty fine podium for the movie.

[aggle-rithm]

Loose Change Final Edit os gonna be shown at the Cannes Film Festival. Yesssssssssss!

Well, they ate up "Farenheit 911". Of course, that had some production value, but I'd guess anything vaguely anti-American would go over big there.

[Iggy]

Aaron Rosso gave a great interview the other day detailing insider information about 9/11. Did anybody see it?

[aggle-rithm]

I wouldn't count on that if I were you.

It took Ireland by storm, didn't it? ;)

[aggle-rithm]

Aaron Rosso gave a great interview the other day detailing insider information about 9/11. Did anybody see it?

No, but I'm going to reserve judgement on it being a "great interview".

[Iggy]

This is from last week's Guardian newspaper

'They're all forced to listen to us'


It began as a tiny internet film attacking the 'lies' surrounding 9/11. Now, millions of people have heard its message. Like it or loathe it, you can't ignore Loose Change, says Ed Pilkington

Friday January 26, 2007
The Guardian

At the end of the journey is a white clapboard cabin surrounded by muddy fields and a couple of dilapidated sheds. Inside, the house is sparsely furnished with plastic chairs and a worn brown carpet. Three young men in their early 20s are sitting around on a futon in the back bedroom watching Family Guy, the animated TV show, on a large plasma screen and playing with a puppy. On the desk in front of them are three computer screens showing, incongruously, the skyline of Manhattan in segments, like a 21st-century triptych.
At first glance, this seems an unlikely setting for what can reasonably be called a revolution in film distribution. There is nothing Beverly Hills about this room, or the twentysomethings sitting around in it. But when you stop to reflect, it is the perfect setting for the command-post of a phenomenon that has turned normal movie logistics on their head, challenged assumptions about documentary film-making and journalism, and created an army of hundreds of thousands of devoted "info warriors".

This is the bedroom of Dylan Avery, the director and creator of Loose Change, the most successful movie to emerge from what followers call the 9/11 Truth Movement. More commonly, they are referred to as conspiracy theorists. They believe - or rather, they insist they can prove - that the attacks in New York and Washington on September 11 2001 were not the work of Osama bin Laden, but of elements within the US government itself. They reject the term "conspiracy theorists", arguing that if you accept the official line on 9/11 you have in any case signed up to a theory about a conspiracy - an al-Qaida conspiracy.

Many people find the world of such anti-establishment sceptics, to use polite terminology, deeply suspect and verging on the offensive. A few of the families of the victims of 9/11 have said as much to the Loose Change crew, although Avery says many more have offered support. But push aside any instinctive distrust there might be about what they are saying - we'll come back to that later - and consider for a moment its impact.

The movement of 9/11 sceptics has had an astonishing success in sowing doubt across the US. Recent polls suggest more than a third of Americans believe that either the official version of events never happened, or that US officials knew the attacks were imminent, but did nothing to stop them.

That's an impressive statistic in itself. Now look at the success Loose Change has had. Google Video acts as a portal for the movie, where you can also see the running tally of the number of times it has been viewed since last August. As I write, it stands at 4,048,990. By the time you read this, it will have risen considerably higher. On top of that, the movie was shown on television to up to 50 million people in 12 countries on September 11 last year; 100,000 DVDs have been sold and 50,000 more given away free. Then there are many more who have watched the film but are never counted, as a result of the active encouragement the film-makers give their supporters to burn the movie and distribute it to their friends. Avery says 100 million people - "easy" - have seen it. That may be an exaggeration, but it's fair to say that something extraordinary is going on.

The Loose Change story begins in May 2002 on the opening night of a Mediterranean restaurant in Oneonta where Avery, then aged 19, is working as a dishwasher. A friend of the owner, James Gandolfini (aka Tony Soprano), is a guest at the party and Avery gets chatting with him. "We started talking about movies and *," Avery recalls. "Gandolfini told me, if you want to do something that matters, you have to talk to the entire world. You have to have something to say."

Avery had just finished high school. He'd long been a film buff, a fan of Tarantino, Fight Club and The Matrix. He was inspired to begin writing a novel/film-script. He began toying with the idea of a fictional work that would explore the fantasy that 9/11 hadn't been carried out by 19 Arabs with box-cutters, but by the American government as an attack on the minds of its own people. At that point, he was writing pure fiction. But as he began researching September 11 for background to the story, he began to come across evidence that made him change direction. All the footage and the eyewitness accounts he gathered, he says, "just didn't add up".

The second of the three twentysomethings enters the scene. He is Korey Rowe, now aged 23 and Dylan's best friend from Oneonta. Five years ago, Rowe joined the army because he had nothing better to do and he'd heard the golf was good at training camp. Then 9/11 happened and "everything went crazy". He was posted to Afghanistan for six months and later for a year to Iraq. Rowe extracted himself from the military in 2005 and joined Avery full-time in making Loose Change. By now, it was taking shape as a part fiction, part reality movie, but eventually they decided they had enough material to go all-out as a documentary.

The first edition of Loose Change, running at 30 minutes and produced on a battered Compaq Presario laptop (price $1,500), was finished in April that year. The second, longer, edition - the one currently available on the internet - came out in September 2005 with the help of a third partner and fellow Oneonta resident, Jason Bermas, aged 27.

Entirely self-taught, and without a single journalistic qualification between them beyond a couple of media courses Jason sat at college, the three men have sought to take on the combined might of the Bush administration, the FBI, the CIA and the mainstream media. If viewer statistics are a measure of success, they have to no small degree prevailed.

One can speculate as to the reasons for their success. September 11 was such an overwhelming event that many people have been open to the wilder accounts of what lay behind it. The reaction of the Bush administration - Afghanistan, Iraq, Guantánamo, terror clampdowns within America - have generated profound fears about the president's intentions. And this openness to - even need for - alternative explanations has come at just the moment when the internet has made it possible for such theories to be disseminated rapidly and widely.

The power of the film is that it lays down layer upon layer of seemingly rational analysis to end up with a conclusion many would find incredible. It is compiled from original footage from numerous news sources, narrated in Dylan's mild, almost monotone voice, and backed by an soundtrack from DJ Skooly and others that induces a sense of the ominous.

And so to the message. The Twin Towers in New York didn't fall as a direct result of the planes hitting them and the fire that ensued; they were brought them down in a series of controlled explosions. George Bush's brother, Marvin, sat on the board of a company that insured the towers.

"I think what happened to the World Trade Centre was simple enough," Avery says in the film. "It was brought down in a carefully planned controlled demolition. It was a psychological attack on the American people and it was pulled off with military precision."

Flight 77, which supposedly flew into the Pentagon, could not have flown at that speed without going into a tailspin. There is no sign of any parts of an aeroplane in footage of the crash site, and the building looked as though it had been hit by a missile. Meanwhile, Donald Rumsfeld was safe on the other side of the Pentagon.

Flight 93, said to have come down in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania, never did crash there. Instead it landed in Cleveland airport shortly after the airport had been evacuated. The emotive phone calls by the so-called passengers to their relatives before they "died" were staged.

There are several flaws in the argument. The list of those who would have to have been party to the plot is implausibly long for it to have remained secret, from Bush himself to Rumsfeld and Cheney and the FBI and Pentagon ... and on and on. Much of the supporting evidence in the film was taken in the first minutes and hours after the attacks, when confusion reigned. And George Bush may be a disastrous and dishonest president, but would he be capable of such a monstrous act?

The three men have instant answers to any objections you can throw at them. There may have been a lot of people involved - they think about 100 - but only a handful of those would have known the full plot. As for Bush acting heinously, haven't leaders the world over proven themselves capable of monstrous acts?

There's a futility to arguing with them that even they recognise. "You can't stop this, you can't hold us back," Jason says. "Many outlets have tried to ignore us, but in the end they are all forced to listen to us because their viewers are demanding it." He is right. The exponential growth of Loose Change is gradually forcing the film on the mainstream media. Though it began as an internet phenomenon, its biggest spikes have come, significantly, after the film gained airplay on old media platforms such as Air America and Pacifica radio stations, local Fox TV outlets and on stations around the world, including state outlets in Belgium, Ireland and Portugal. So far though, no British channel has been rash - or as the film-makers would see it, brave - enough to bite.

"This is unlike anything I have worked on," says Tim Sparke of MercuryMedia, which handles international distribution for the film. "It has forced millions of people to question whether they can trust big media, and by bypassing the broadcasters through internet distribution it has altered the media power balance profoundly. With a little money and passion, anyone can make an important film."

The final test for Avery and co is yet to come. They are putting together Loose Change: the Final Cut using an upgraded Power Mac G5 (price $5,000). They have filmed original interviews with Washington players, employed lawyers to iron out copyright issues with borrowed footage, commissioned 3D graphics from Germany, and recruited a theology professor to act as fact-checker and consultant. The end result, they hope, will be seen at Cannes and have a cinema release in America and across the world on the sixth anniversary of 9/11.

If that happens, they will have squared the circle. The underground film-makers will have come up for air, exposing millions more people to their argument - and themselves to intense scrutiny. Stand back and enjoy the fireworks.

[jon]

I cant post a link to the Final Edit but....

So they've got a 'final cut' that 'proves' 9/11 was an inside job. People are dying *now* because of the belief that Al Qaeda did it, but Dylan et al are going to wait a good while before they release the evidence (it'll preview at Cannes?) And no truther's going to leak the film (or script) in the meantime? How many people will you allow to die while we're waiting for your 'proof'?

Also, aren't you worried that the evil governments who planned 9/11 take action in the meantime - what would it take to erase LC-FT, killing a few hundred people maybe and trashing a few dozen copies of the film? Or maybe the NWO will launch a preemptive coup?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

You know what would be even better than Cannes? If they published portions of their work in this (http://www.asme.org/Publications/Journals/) or this (http://www.sciam.com/).

[Iggy]

So they've got a 'final cut' that 'proves' 9/11 was an inside job. People are dying *now* because of the belief that Al Qaeda did it, but Dylan et al are going to wait a good while before they release the evidence (it'll preview at Cannes?) And no truther's going to leak the film (or script) in the meantime? How many people will you allow to die while we're waiting for your 'proof'?

Also, aren't you worried that the evil governments who planned 9/11 take action in the meantime - what would it take to erase LC-FT, killing a few hundred people maybe and trashing a few dozen copies of the film? Or maybe the NWO will launch a preemptive coup?

Look in the mirror, you guys have been whitewashing the US Government's involvement with 9/11 from the start. YOU are the monsters with blood on your hands. I do not know how you can sleep at night.

[Firestone]

I do not know how you can sleep at night.We can, because we have good company ... :)

[Iggy]

Read the following resent article, it's all about you and the American mindset.

'The Rise Of The Fourth Reich

Everyone likes to say, "Hitler did this", and, "Hitler did that". But the truth is Hitler did very little. He was a world class tyrant, but the evil actually done by the Third Reich, from the death camps to WW2 was all done by German citizens who were afraid to question if what they were told by their government was the truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to themselves that they were afraid to question the government, refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed Hitler into national disaster.

[Firestone]

Read the following resent article, it's all about you and the American mindset.You are aware that many here are not Americans, are you?
(Not that it really matters ...)

'The Rise Of The Fourth Reich

Everyone likes to say, "Hitler did this", and, "Hitler did that". But the truth is Hitler did very little.
:words:
You are aware that Dylan Avery will participate in the "Accountability Conference" to be hosted by a holocaust denier, are you?

Are you going to confront the holocaust deniers in the "Truth Movement" with your "Hitler-literature"? :rolleyes:

[8den]

Cannes would be a mighty fine podium for the movie.

Okay I feel like I'm telling a puppy its not christmas. Just because its being shown in Cannes doesn't mean squat. Yes they're taking it to Cannes this doesn't mean there's going to be a gala screening on the Rue D'antibes, with Dylan, Rowe and Korey in tux's escorting Lynsay Lohan, Paris and Britney, while Scorcese, De Palma, and Alan Parker give them a standing ovation.*

Thousands of people bring their film, or idea for a film to Cannes, it's a meat market (literaly theres a porno festival that takes place as a subpart of the festival) for film markers, they set up ****** stalls, in corners of hotel lobbies, and try and convince distributors to buy the film. It goes on from dawn to dusk, and beyond as filmakers try and wrangle their way into the parties to convince distributors to buy their film. Good films, bad films, fiction and documentary, thousands are brought to Canners every year and most sink without a trace.

Saying you're going to Cannes, it's like riding a greyhound bus to LA, getting off the bus, running to a pay phone and ringing all your friends and telling them "I did it! I made it in Hollywood!". Nope kiddo you made it to Hollywood. You gots along way to go before you make it in Hollywood.

Seriously theres no achievement here Iggy.



*I think our tragic trio wake up every morning with a hardon after having this dream.

[Iggy]

This is the year of TRUTH.

[Firestone]

This is the year of TRUTH.Probably.

Once the NIST-report about WTC7 is out, all major questions regarding the actual events will be answered.

Then it will be the time to look at the deeper political causes and effects of the attacks, but that is for another forum.

Of course I talk about the truth, not your "TRUTH".

[Iggy]

Here is a 10 minute preview of the newly updated 9/11 Hoboken movie.

Subject: Fw: A short video on 9/11

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6333886887490767906&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6333886887490767906&hl=en)

This is the 10 minute version from the new DVD, HOBOKEN TV136

Hoboken TV136 is a fast-paced, step-by-step look at what really happened ... all » on 09.11.01 in New York City.

[aggle-rithm]

Read the following resent article, it's all about you and the American mindset.

'The Rise Of The Fourth Reich


There are so many things wrong with this article, I don't know where to start. But here's the thrust of it:


But in truth, by the 1930s, the German people had become civilized and tamed, culturally obsessed with fine details in both science and society. Their self-image of bravery was both salve and slavery. Germans were required to behave as if they were brave, even when they were not.

It's easy to look back and realize what a jerk Hitler was. But at the time, Hitler looked pretty good to the German people, with the help of the media. He was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. The German people assumed they were safe from a tyrant. They lived in a Republic, after all, with strict laws regarding what the government could and more importantly could not do.



But in truth, by the dawn of the third millennium, the American people have become civilized and tamed, culturally obsessed with fine details in both science and society. Their self-image of bravery is both salve and slavery. Americans are required to behave as if they are brave, even when they are not.

The American people assume they are safe. They live in a Republic, after all, with strict laws regarding what the government can and more importantly cannot do.

These comparisons are just words. There is no depth to them.

Germany's "Republic...with strict laws regarding what the government could and more importantly could not do" was less than ten years old when Hitler came to power. It wasn't formed by consent of the people, but forced on them by the victors of WWI. The government was fragmented into dozens of political parties, the economy was in chaos, and thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people lost their life's savings because of the government's reckless fiscal decisions.

Hitler came along and promised strength and unity, and the people were desperate enough to listen to him. Even so, it took an extraordinary sequence of chance events to sweep Hitler into office. He was granted a place on the cabinet by Hindenburg, who recognized him as the dangerous man he was and thought he could control him by keeping him close. Unfortunately, Hindenburg died, and the rest is history.

There is no comparison between this situation and what we have today in the US. The American people weren't desperate for someone to save them when they elected GW Bush, most people were pretty apathetic about who they voted for. The US government is no shaky experimental construct, it's been around for over two centuries. Despite fears of outsourcing and downsizing, the economy is booming. No one is seeing their life savings wiped out by a weak dollar, or paying billions of dollars for a sandwich, as they did in Germany. And while there is some gridlock between the two major political parties in America, it is nothing like the chaos that reigned in German politics in the 1930's.

Please, before you copy and paste a long article here, check it out to see if its arguments has merit. These clearly don't.

[uk_dave]

Read the following resent article, it's all about you and the American mindset.

'The Rise Of The Fourth Reich

Everyone likes to say.............

I don't see a source linked or an author credited, so I assume you wrote that yourself..... right?

[stateofgrace]

Look in the mirror, you guys have been whitewashing the US Government's involvement with 9/11 from the start. YOU are the monsters with blood on your hands. I do not know how you can sleep at night.

I sleep well at night because I am not the one accusing innocent people of mass murder. I am not the one pissing on the graves on the victims nor am I the one that believes hideous theories that have no factual backing.

I am not the one producing a movie full of lies and distortions and selling it on to gullible fools who believe they are saviours of humanity. The same fools that accuse anybody who has opposing views to them of being monsters.

[Firestone]

I don't see a source linked or an author credited, so I assume you wrote that yourself..... right?No no ...

Shrewd as only a real Truther can be, he left a hidden clue to the author in his next post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2304877&postcount=4992).

These Truthers outsmart us all the time. :(

[CptColumbo]

I think if you do some research you'll find that Hitler signed very few orders after Hindenberg's death. In fact, when asked to, he refused to put many of his orders in writing. Instead he preferred to give his orders verbally and/or have someone else put it in writing.

[The Silver Shadow]

Cannes would be a mighty fine podium for the movie.
Except that you should see the conditions for releasing a film at Cannes. I would be interested in points 1 and 4 under "Conditions".

http://www.festival-cannes.org/pratique/inscription/form.php?langue=6002

Since the concept of Loose Change has already been out on the internet, it should technically not be allowed to play because it's been done before.

Also, you should keep in mind that once it's sent to Cannes, there is no guarantee that it will be selected to view because thousands of films get sent to Cannes, and only a few will make it. Since Loose Change has no real credibility and all the assumptions made in the film have been debunked, then it's really a cause that doesn't interest anyone.

[8den]

Except that you should see the conditions for releasing a film at Cannes. I would be interested in points 1 and 4 under "Conditions".

http://www.festival-cannes.org/pratique/inscription/form.php?langue=6002

Since the concept of Loose Change has already been out on the internet, it should technically not be allowed to play because it's been done before.

Also, you should keep in mind that once it's sent to Cannes, there is no guarantee that it will be selected to view because thousands of films get sent to Cannes, and only a few will make it. Since Loose Change has no real credibility and all the assumptions made in the film have been debunked, then it's really a cause that doesn't interest anyone.


Silver I really don't think they're trying to get it into offical competition, even dylan cannot be that arrogant. As I said thousands of films are shown in Cannes, people rent tiny cinemas or makeshift ones, in hotel conference rooms, anywhere where there is a wall, some chairs and room for a projector.

[jon]

Look in the mirror, you guys have been whitewashing the US Government's involvement with 9/11 from the start. YOU are the monsters with blood on your hands. I do not know how you can sleep at night.

Look, I've been reasonably active (though there's always more you could do, etc...) in campaigning against some of the supposed responses to 9/11. I was quite hopeful when I watched LC - but, when I double-checked claims made in the film, I didn't find a single claim that was a) anything novel and b) I could be at all confident was not BS. If you've got new claims and evidence that aren't BS, you've got a duty to present it now - so we can take action against those you say are behind 9/11. Remember, every day you wait more people die (and every lie you tell a kitten gets it :D )

So, even if you can't rip a DVD and put that online, why don't you put out a summary of all the compelling claims in LCFC - obviously, you're best contacting the cops, but you could always post on this forum to... Remember, every day that you wait there are more people dying.

btw, I'm serious about the risks of LCFC being destroyed. If you really believe there's a massive conspiracy, you need to get your proof out ASAP. Once its been distributed via bittorrent, it's in the public domain; for now, though, the NWO would only need to kill a relatively small number of people to maintain their cover-up.