Loose Change - Part IV

[Belz...]

I think this will definitley happen. I see it as preparation for the eventual release of the "100% accurate" 'Final Cut'. Of course, it won't be 100% accurate and people will be slamming it in the skeptics forum and elsewhere. Can't have skeptics negating the sales drive, can we?

I think you mean the "100%" "accurate" "final" "cut".

Or is that the ""100%" ""accurate" ""final" "cut""""

[Belz...]

Let's remember, these people have the attention span of a cow, so the only way to keep them interested in the CT is to regularly raise the "woo" level in your new video. I joke about it, at times, but I fully expect somebody to start pushing the "no-buildings" theory in the next round.

Yeah, I kinda expected that to happen about a month ago.

[Pardalis]

Ramoooooooooooone

That was him on the radio show with Corey Rowe (or was it Dylan)?

That was so funny! :D

[Pardalis]

Woo! If ever an "I'm with stupid T-shirt" was appropriate, this is that time.

That would be an "I'm with stoopid" T-shirt. ;)

[DavidJames]

Well, it appears that Mr. O'Reilly will have his shots at the 9-11 conspiracy tonight..

http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/I'm afraid to watch this. I fear drastic disruption to the space time continuum along with massive accumulation of snowballs in hell as my mind attempts to come to grips with the thought of agreeing with B'OR

[Regnad Kcin]

It's interesting to me how in one breath the CTs rant on about how the gubmint is evil, turning the USA into a police state, concocting this massive conspiracy to hide the twoof about 9/11, and in the next breath ban opposing points of view, remove posts that contradict the party line, and generally act like the very Gestapo that they rant on about. I'd type more but I've already got irony dripping onto my carpet and it's hell to get out.It's like I've said earlier in these discussions: the Loose Change forum is not for debate or discussion such as we enjoy here. It's a club, a place for fanboys with similar interests.

You would never visit a forum dedicated to, say, Ford Mustangs and be able to post much in the way of criticism or open-ended chat, 'cause they love their 'Stangs to the point of near blind devotion. Same thing with LC.Also, another golden oldie. (http://vaiden.net/rascals_files/image009.jpg)

[Joytown]

I'm afraid to watch this. I fear drastic disruption to the space time continuum along with massive accumulation of snowballs in hell as my mind attempts to come to grips with the thought of agreeing with B'OR

Funny - I had the exact same reaction. I Bill O'Reilly is anathma to pretty much everything I beleive in. Having him argue the non-CT case gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

However, regardless of what my personal opinions are about this administration, that still does not change the reality of what occured on 9-11.

-Joytown

[Mancman]

I think you mean the "100%" "accurate" "final" "cut".

Or is that the ""100%" ""accurate" ""final" "cut""""

Oh, it's going to be airtight.




As airtight as the WTC lifts, that is. ;)

[Class]

What EMP burst?
Dylan Avery brought this up. In a thread he made (can't find it now, I'm suspended) he said that in a video taken of the second impact from right by the WTC, you can see a Burger King sign flicker as the plane hits the tower.

Dylan Avery finds this sufficient evidence of an EMP blast. I am not kidding.

[Belz...]

I'm afraid to watch this. I fear drastic disruption to the space time continuum along with massive accumulation of snowballs in hell as my mind attempts to come to grips with the thought of agreeing with B'OR

I'll skip that one for the low, low price of 4 souls...

[Belz...]

Dylan Avery brought this up. In a thread he made (can't find it now, I'm suspended) he said that in a video taken of the second impact from right by the WTC, you can see a Burger King sign flicker as the plane hits the tower.

Dylan Avery finds this sufficient evidence of an EMP blast. I am not kidding.

We all know that ONLY an EMP burst could possibly cause the Burger King sign to flicker. Nothing else could possibly cause this kind of disturbance around a 110-storey building that's about to collapse. None.

[Joytown]

I ran across this fantastic site the other day and thought I'd share it here (you all may already know about this, if so, please ignore). It would make a great addition to the "additional resources" page for anyone who has a 9-11 debunking page:

At Aerospace web, they have an Ask a Rocket Scientist page: aerospaceweb.org/question/list.shtml


On the conspiracy theory page they tackle such topic as:

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Ground Effect:
aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Engine Investigation:
aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

Great stuff. Great science.

Of course they could all just be government shills.

-Joytown

[MarkyX]

Dylan Avery brought this up. In a thread he made (can't find it now, I'm suspended) he said that in a video taken of the second impact from right by the WTC, you can see a Burger King sign flicker as the plane hits the tower.

Dylan Avery finds this sufficient evidence of an EMP blast. I am not kidding.

I hope he understands that EMP is an area of effect and not an isolated corner.

I read about EMPs...we wouldn't need a mid-80s IQ wannabe filmmaker to point it out.

[Grundar]

I ran across this fantastic site the other day and thought I'd share it here (you all may already know about this, if so, please ignore). It would make a great addition to the "additional resources" page for anyone who has a 9-11 debunking page:

At Aerospace web, they have an Ask a Rocket Scientist page: aerospaceweb.org/question/list.shtml


On the conspiracy theory page they tackle such topic as:

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Ground Effect:
aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Engine Investigation:
aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

Great stuff. Great science.

Of course they could all just be government shills.




-Joytown
Just fixed the links for you.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/list.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

/Hans

[MarkyX]

I'm afraid to watch this. I fear drastic disruption to the space time continuum along with massive accumulation of snowballs in hell as my mind attempts to come to grips with the thought of agreeing with B'OR

Oh snap...

Massive BS colliding with Massive Stupidity.

Time to learn some lessons from Bert the Turtle. I'm going to need it.

[Joytown]

Just fixed the links for you.


Thanks .. I'm just a few posts shy of being able to do that myself!

There are a couple more over there I'll post here after I reach my requisite 15 ;-)

[c0rbin]

How are you, Joytown?

Welcome to the forum.

[c0rbin]

I saw another possibly familiar name commenting: crbin. Was that c0rbin from here?

::Bowing::

Indeed that is me. I guess I mistyped my Username in haste. I am afraid I am not too creative when it comes to internet handles.

[jhunter1163]

I'm going to try to get my wife to come with me to GZ this weekend.. she was a clown (seriously, with Ringling) years ago and still makes a beautiful tinfoil hat.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I hope he understands that EMP is an area of effect and not an isolated corner.

I read about EMPs...we wouldn't need a mid-80s IQ wannabe filmmaker to point it out.

<thread derail>
EMP weapons scare the crap outta me.

Wrap a copper coil around a bangalore torpedo, wire it up to a couple big capacitors and then set it off and presto, everyone in a ten block radius is living in the 1800's.

Do this in front of the New York and London stock exchanges in a synchronized attack and you could raise some serious hell (assuming the government and corporate beauracrats in charge have shown thier usual foresight in preparing for these kind of things).
</thread derail>

[MarkyX]

<thread derail>
EMP weapons scare the crap outta me.

Wrap a copper coil around a bangalore torpedo, wire it up to a couple big capacitors and then set it off and presto, everyone in a ten block radius is living in the 1800's.

Do this in front of the New York and London stock exchanges in a synchronized attack and you could raise some serious hell (assuming the government and corporate beauracrats in charge have shown thier usual foresight in preparing for these kind of things).
</thread derail>

Yep, they are indeed scary things. We rely on electricity and technology that we would probably perish without it.

Ironically, I read the information on EMPs by...dun dun dun, Popular Mechanics.

[The_Fire]

Oh snap...

Massive BS colliding with Massive Stupidity.

Time to learn some lessons from Bert the Turtle. I'm going to need it.

You mean something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0K_LZDXp0I)?:D:p

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Yep, they are indeed scary things. We rely on electricity and technology that we would probably perish without it.

Ironically, I read the information on EMPs by...dun dun dun, Popular Mechanics.

Good old PM.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281421.html

For bonus points, check the publish date. ;)

[c0rbin]

And yet the most powerful administration on the planet has to orchestrate hijackings and crash planes into buildings to gain power, money and control.

Foolishness!

[MarkyX]

Good old PM.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281421.html

For bonus points, check the publish date. ;)

Okay, not only did you find the exact article but..wow

[brumsen]

Good old PM.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281421.html

For bonus points, check the publish date. ;)
Moreover it starts with "The next Pearl Harbor..."
So this is an Obvious Smoking Gun, innit?:jaw-dropp

[DrCron]

here is my new, favorite LC quote...from Chuck Sheen:

wrt the film Loose Change:

"...a revolutionary eye-opening film."

ROFLMAO


It sure made my eyes roll

[Joytown]

How are you, Joytown?

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome! Been a lurker for ages. Decided to bite the bullet and start contributing just recently. According to the CT'ers, I have been asleep that whole time because they keep admonishing me to "wake up".

Is the whole 9/11 conspiracy movement a giant conspiracy in itself to sell more coffee?

Hey .. I'm just asking questions.

-Joytown

[c0rbin]

I think I got banned from the LC Forum.

Can anyone else post over there? If so, can you find out if I am banned?

[NDBoston]

I think I got banned from the LC Forum.

Can anyone else post over there? If so, can you find out if I am banned?

Jenabell is now an admin.

[DavidJames]

Jenabell is now an admin.
Two of the three stooges are now in place. The apocalypse is at hand.

[apathoid]

Two of the three stooges are now in place. The apocalypse is at hand.

Two?! I count at least three stooges :)

-ChuckSeed
-JohnD'oh
-SBrowne

It cant get much worse than that...:eye-poppi

[chipmunk stew]

Jenabell is now an admin.Well that explains it. I'm banned, too. Well technically I'm suspended until 2009, but we'll all be in the Halliburton camps by then, so I'm as good as banned.

edit: They also deleted the opposing views sticky from the skeptics forum. It's all going according to plan.

[c0rbin]

::sigh::

I can't even read the threads :(

Oh well, back to work.

[DavidJames]

::sigh::

I can't even read the threads :(

Oh well, back to work.The Skeptics forum seems to have been taken down, perhaps the meds got the best of jdx and he fell nose first onto his keyboard, locking the forum. I can see the other forums.

[NDBoston]

::sigh::

I can't even read the threads :(

Oh well, back to work.


Go to Unipeak.com

It hides your IP address and lets you surf wherever you like.

[c0rbin]

Go to Unipeak.com

It hides your IP address and lets you surf wherever you like.


Thanks, Beantown.

Looks like they deleted some threads? I think the banning was caused by TK0001 calling JDX out on another being erroneously banned for using an anonymous IP addy.

[chipmunk stew]

SBrowne/jenabell's avatar takes on a whole new meaning...

(For those who only lurk at LC, his avatar is a protester holding a sign that says "WAKE UP & SMELL THE FASCISM")

[Legalduck]

Dylan Avery brought this up. In a thread he made (can't find it now, I'm suspended) he said that in a video taken of the second impact from right by the WTC, you can see a Burger King sign flicker as the plane hits the tower.

Dylan Avery finds this sufficient evidence of an EMP blast. I am not kidding.

Ummm... So why wasn't the camera taking the video of the BK sign disrupted by the EMP as well?

Damn logical questions.

[ob986s]

The Skeptics forum seems to have been taken down, perhaps the meds got the best of jdx and he fell nose first onto his keyboard, locking the forum. I can see the other forums.


no the Skeptics forum is still there. I am on it now

[chipmunk stew]

Thanks, Beantown.

Looks like they deleted some threads? I think the banning was caused by TK0001 calling JDX out on another being erroneously banned for using an anonymous IP addy.
I doubt it. The banning was caused by jenabell becoming an admin. You've gotta think like a paranoid CT when dealing with these people, not a rational skeptic. They did delete some threads, though.

[Hutch]

Well that explains it. I'm banned, too. Well technically I'm suspended until 2009.

Yep, I'm done too until 2009. I wonder if they purged the Bad Astronomy folks that were doing so well (and so politely) on the Moon Hoax thread so DavidC could claim 'victory' in that topic as well.

I guess the One True Religion could not abide heretics...especially inteliigent, skeptical ones (they're always the worse, you know ;) )

Going to be a run on badges.

Edited to add--I'm locked out from home too boot. So my days on the LC Forum are done.

[Abbyas]

no the Skeptics forum is still there. I am on it now

Looks like no one has posted on it in a couple of hours, tho.

Wonder if it's all locked.

[c0rbin]

SBrowne/jenabell's avatar takes on a whole new meaning...

(For those who only lurk at LC, his avatar is a protester holding a sign that says "WAKE UP & SMELL THE FASCISM")


Don't know if he (or anyone) got a kick out of my Avatar spoof over there of his:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/6344d79fb3ae7d6.jpg

[chipmunk stew]

Looks like no one has posted on it in a couple of hours, tho.

Wonder if it's all locked.Did they boot you, too?

[chipmunk stew]

Don't know if he (or anyone) got a kick out of my Avatar spoof over there of his:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/6344d79fb3ae7d6.jpgI did. :D

[DavidJames]

Looks like no one has posted on it in a couple of hours, tho.

Wonder if it's all locked.The skeptics forum disappeared came back and disappeared again from the LC index page. Perhaps the little children have tired of the fight, given up, taken their bat and ball and retreated under mommies skirt.

[Abbyas]

Did they boot you, too?

Nope.

Although in the LC lounge, they were discussing Gravy's post re: GZ and posted the picture of me.

At first I was nervous, but then I realized that when you are as awesome as I am, you're gonna catch some flak and people who don't like you will post your photo.

This is just my first step in my plan for Fame and Global Domination.

Abby fer prez, 2025. (Yes, I know it's not an election year, but there will be a special one just for me.)

[Abbyas]

DavidJames, you should be flattered.

When I click on my favorites link to the LC skeptics board, I see this

Loose Change Forum->September 11, 2001 Sites->DavidJames is an Idiot ;)

The skeptics board has been renamed in your honor.

[c0rbin]

Abby,

Since you are obviously a government shill, on the payroll and all, you can change the rules and burn the constitution as you see fit.

Afterall, we are all part of the NWO!!!

[Mancman]

I'm banned too. 40 posts. No warning, no message, no explanation.

Can I have my badge?

I was 'Squibley' in case anybody cares.

Edit: An IP ban as well, and I'm on a proxy so several thousand residents of Manchester are now blocked out. Wahey!

[DavidJames]

DavidJames, you should be flattered.

When I click on my favorites link to the LC skeptics board, I see this

Loose Change Forum->September 11, 2001 Sites->DavidJames is an Idiot ;)

The skeptics board has been renamed in your honor.I'm torn between blushing with humility and flushed with pride.

[DavidJames]

DavidJames, you should be flattered.

When I click on my favorites link to the LC skeptics board, I see this

Loose Change Forum->September 11, 2001 Sites->DavidJames is an Idiot ;)

The skeptics board has been renamed in your honor.I see

Abby need new clothes

Okay, I need to give them a bit of credit for using their maturity level to have some fun.

[ob986s]

Ummm... So why wasn't the camera taking the video of the BK sign disrupted by the EMP as well?

Damn logical questions.


watch this video (linked in the LC Nuke thread) they show a small video artifact and claim that this is from the EMP, I am not kidding. The entire video is only 3-4 minutes long, it is a trailer for a larger movie coming out in September. I can not believe how much stupid these people can cram into 3 minutes. My favorite part is their "20 reasons why it was a WMD" this would be great comedy if it were not about such a serious matter.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3211807290597119388&q=wmd+at+the+wtc

edited to add link

[Abbyas]

Abby need new clothes

Really?

They weren't happy with my gray tank and jeans ensemble? Well, then, I'm forced to agree with them that 9/11 was an inside job. And next week, I'll wear prada.

[The_Fire]

I am trying to determine wether to laugh or to cry.
If you "yanks" really have to rely on these people, whom seem to have gotten to late to the que when intelligence and common sense were passed out, for the future of your country, I predict the US getting walled in to prevent anyone from escaping. If I were you, I would get out while I could.

A nuke?! These guys should have listened more carefully during those pesky science classes.......

[c0rbin]

There was a YouTube video posted in the Skeptic forum that was something like "In their Own Words" It had an interview with the Ryan guy from UL and some day-of news reports.

Does anyone have the link for this?

[NDBoston]

Really?

They weren't happy with my gray tank and jeans ensemble? Well, then, I'm forced to agree with them that 9/11 was an inside job. And next week, I'll wear prada.


I might come in all Armani Saturday. That and the fact I worked with SSB at 7WTC on 9/11 clearly shows I was paid off to keep my silence on what really happened.

[DavidJames]

Really?

They weren't happy with my gray tank and jeans ensemble? Well, then, I'm forced to agree with them that 9/11 was an inside job. And next week, I'll wear prada.Yes. That jenabell sure has a sense of humor and was clearly jealous of your ensemble.

[c0rbin]

I am trying to determine wether to laugh or to cry.
If you "yanks" really have to rely on these people, whom seem to have gotten to late to the que when intelligence and common sense were passed out, for the future of your country, I predict the US getting walled in to prevent anyone from escaping. If I were you, I would get out while I could.

A nuke?! These guys should have listened more carefully during those pesky science classes.......

A ) The US is not the only country peppered with Lunacy.
B ) These people are not the future of our country

[Abbyas]

I might come in all Armani Saturday. That and the fact I worked with SSB at 7WTC on 9/11 clearly shows I was paid off to keep my silence on what really happened.

You could show up in paper bags and a barrell. You tell them that second sentence, they will one hundred percent believe that you are being paid to be there.

[MarkyX]

Skeptics forum is gone.

[Darth Rotor]

Mike, a couple of things, actually three.
Mark Bigham was seated in row 4 which wouldve been First Class, also his aunt was apparently a UA flight attendant. To me, that signals a buddy pass.
Also, he almost missed the flight so he didnt beat the 5 minutes paperwork deadline.
Thats 2 very good reasons he wouldnt be on the list.
This bothers me. The FAA requires a complete manifest of all flights that take off with passengers on them. Where would the corrected manifest be? I suspect the gate agents would have one, which begs the question:

What happened to the final list the gate personnel created afte the last passenger finally got on board?

DR

[MarkyX]

Look at this..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4473209961958916048

Jason looks so ..stupid with his wannabe badass look.

[mrfreeze]

The forum is still there, but it is limited to the "Loose Change Debating Forum" and all posts have to be approved by a moderator. And all but 4 threads are gone. I made a post asking what the hell happened, but no idea if it will go through. I don't think I will get banned just yet since I haven't and have no plan of doing anything to piss off the mods.

*edit 1*I was wrong. They only did this as a preemtpive measure to getting rid of the board entirely. Apparently we are no longer wanted over there. I did invite any who wanted to have a (mostly) civil debate to stop by, although I have no idea if any actually would.

*edit 2* both my posts on the matter were deleted. I'm not sure if this was to clear the thread before it gets locked, if it was to keep me from mentioning the JREF, or if it was just to erase my points before banning me. Either way go figure.

[The_Fire]

A ) The US is not the only country peppered with Lunacy.
I know, but ours usually ends up in asylums or bunks with Moses Hansen (local religious nutcase).


B ) These people are not the future of our country
I really, really hope not. For your sake and for the sake of the rest of the world!

*rant alert not directed at corbin*

Have these maroons not heard about the sideeffects of a nuke going off?!

Nevermind the radioactive fallout, but there's also things like radiation which tends to be rather sever and have some rather nasty sideeffects on the human body which CAN NOT be explained away! Radiation disease is NOT cureable and would have caused several deaths either immidiately or over a stretch of several weeks with hair failing out, rapidly declining immunesystems due to the bloodcells dying even before they leave the bonemarrow etc. Especially amongst those close to the towers when they feel, including the firefighters INSIDE the stairwell!
Radiation of that magnitude DOESN'T stop for concrete or metal less that 12 feet thick!

Nuclear winter?! Pulverised concrete?! It's called "plaster" and is usually used in a little thing called "drywalling" you pathetic....
Cone of destruction?! Someone have been watching too much sci-fi! AFAIK it's not humanly possible to limit a nuke like that! It would melt the ****** controldevice directly on firing! And where's the flash?!
There's at least one camera directed at the tower when it falls and that should have caught the flash of the charge going of! Not to mention the gammaglimpse which would have fried any kind of celloid in the vicinity.

The "warhead" needed for this would be small, but jeez louise! That DOESN'T limit the sideeffects!

Empty sprinklers? No ****, sherlock! It was used on those raging fires!
And people WEREN'T vaporised! There were remains found!

And that brown colour? Could it be all those particles of debris flying through the air?!

Expanding clouds? Ever heard of "airpressure", Einstein?! All that air from all those nice officedecks had to go SOMEWHERE! Which also explains the flying debris, idiot!

ETA:
Tritium link 1 (http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1678&context=lbnl)
Tritium link 2 (http://www.llnl.gov/tid/lof/documents/pdf/241096.pdf)

[Mancman]

Have these maroons not heard about the sideeffects of a nuke going off?!

Nevermind the radioactive fallout, but there's also things like radiation which tends to be rather sever and have some rather nasty sideeffects on the human body which CAN NOT be explained away! Radiation disease is NOT cureable and would have caused several deaths either immidiately or over a stretch of several weeks with hair failing out, rapidly declining immunesystems due to the bloodcells dying even before they leave the bonemarrow etc. Especially amongst those close to the towers when they feel, including the firefighters INSIDE the stairwell!
Radiation of that magnitude DOESN'T stop for concrete or metal less that 12 feet thick!


Indeed. Those 14 people found alive at the bottom of the WTC1 stairwell would never, ever have survived. And we would not have reports of lung damage to clean up workers, but thousands of deaths due to an array of nasty cancers, and the nuclear fallout would still contaminate the area to this day, killing hundreds of thousands of people who live in, work in and visit Manhattan.

But who cares about those annoying little 'realities' when you can bukkake everyone with stupid all over again and sell a few more DVDs?

[Joytown]

Skeptics forum is gone.

Leaving us only the regular forums over there, I guess. I'm sure the denizens over there will love the arrival of rational thought, challenged assertions, and critical thinking into their monotone world of 9-11 conspiracy groupthink.

-Joytown

[Hutch]

A pity I cannot post anymore. Given what everyone is reporting, I would post just one word and take my leave (it would be promptly removed by the LC Ministry of Truth, but maybe a few would see it and reflect).

Kristallnacht

Thats' all--thats' enough.

So they are left to soil their playpen by themselves now--I predict after about a week of congratulating themsleves the infighting and backbiting will begin, as will the schisms and bannings. Revolutions do tend to turn upon themselves, and the LC'ers sure seem to consider themselves revolutionaries...

We shall see.

[Joytown]

More goodness from the Aerospaceweb "Ask a Rocket Scientist" webpage:


How fast was the second aircraft to hit World Trade Center going?
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0044a.shtml

What can plane manufacturers do to prevent hijackings like those at the WTC and Pentagon:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0044b.shtml

"One of the clever moves made by the hijacking pilots on at least some of the aircraft was to remove the circuit breakers for the transponders."

"It has been hypothesized that the hijackers may have also disabled the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) in the same manner. Such an action would make it more difficult for investigators to piece together how the hijackers did what they did. In any event, it would seem to be a good idea to eliminate the dependence on circuit breakers and make these devices impossible to disable during flight."

-Joytown

ETA: Yay .. I can finally post links!

[60hzxtl]

watch this video (linked in the LC Nuke thread) they show a small video artifact and claim that this is from the EMP, I am not kidding. The entire video is only 3-4 minutes long, it is a trailer for a larger movie coming out in September. I can not believe how much stupid these people can cram into 3 minutes. My favorite part is their "20 reasons why it was a WMD" this would be great comedy if it were not about such a serious matter.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3211807290597119388&q=wmd+at+the+wtc

edited to add link

Wait - #13

Winter Garden hit by 22 foot steel beams ejected 600' from WTC 1?????


There goes the "in its own foot print" mantra.

#17 Rubble Height only 10 % of original instead of 33% for normal demolition.


See above. And while you are at it, it is not the height above street level, its the height above the foundation hole that went down 7 stories.

# 19 "decontamination" procedure seen at WTC with hi-pressure water spraying.


See # 5 - that's how they put out fires. The ones that burned until December

# 9 contradicted by # 12. Yup - cell phones and TV all in the WTC What did you think was in there? Keebler Cookies?

# 20 Uh, where were the tanks?

Another film made by a genius who wasn't there. Can't keep his story straight in a 3 minute film.


I spent an awful lot of time across the street in St. Paul's begining 5 days after. Ate a lot of meals there. Haven't noticed any radiation problems. (My hair was falling out along time before 9/11!)

[T.A.M.]

The funniest thing will be what it does to JohnDoeX. What on gods earth is he gonna do now, with the power limited to axing those who support his views, and noone else. He'll shrivel...Im melting, im melting, Im melting....

[T.A.M.]

I see August 15th as a release date for "Debunking the 9/11 Myths" the book from Popular Mechanics. I'll be ordering of Amazon on that day...

[negativ]

I am also fairly convinced that John Doh is not a pilot, for completely subjective reasons.

The main one is that he uses ENTIRELY too much jargon and acronyms. I have worked for 15 years in a technical field that is pretty well boiling over with acronyms and jargon, and I don't think even the nerdiest nerd among us here at Nerdville use that much jargon even when it's just insider shop-talk. Certainly we don't inflict it upon Others, unless we're trying to be intentionally obscure and/or appear smarter than we really are.

[CurtC]

Leaving us only the regular forums over there, I guess. I'm sure the denizens over there will love the arrival of rational thought, challenged assertions, and critical thinking into their monotone world of 9-11 conspiracy groupthink.
Don't count on hanging around too long if you try that. This was posted in the LC Lounge forum by administrator turturis:
the skeptics forum is no longer.

we arent catering to trolls, shills, or general havoc wreakers.

if you have a problem with this please leave.
if you want to research use http://google.com
if you want to debate find another forum
if you want to complain...tough

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Turt

[kevin]

I am also fairly convinced that John Doh is not a pilot, for completely subjective reasons.

The main one is that he uses ENTIRELY too much jargon and acronyms.

I had the same thought, and he uses his knowledge of acronyms as proof of his superiority. I'm in computers and I don't hear people talk like that. I've hung out with cops and don't hear them talk like that either. I've hung out with emergency room nurses and don't hear them talk like that. Just not buying it that pilots use it that much either....

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

A pity I cannot post anymore. Given what everyone is reporting, I would post just one word and take my leave (it would be promptly removed by the LC Ministry of Truth, but maybe a few would see it and reflect).

Kristallnacht

Thats' all--thats' enough.

So they are left to soil their playpen by themselves now--I predict after about a week of congratulating themsleves the infighting and backbiting will begin, as will the schisms and bannings. Revolutions do tend to turn upon themselves, and the LC'ers sure seem to consider themselves revolutionaries...

We shall see.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought, "Night of the Long Knives" when this first started today.

[kevin]

# 19 "decontamination" procedure seen at WTC with hi-pressure water spraying.


Not sure about hi-pressure water (except perhaps for cleaning or to cover a large area) but water is one way to keep asbestos from becoming airborne and then inhaled. That would certainly qualify as decom.

[Darth Rotor]

A Port Authority document indicated that the impact of a Boeing 707 aircraft flying at 600 mph was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, the investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and were thus unable to verify the assertion that “…such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.” Since the ability for rigorous simulation of the aircraft impact and of the ensuing fires are recent developments and since the approach to structural modeling was developed for this Investigation, the technical capability available to The Port Authority and its consultants and contractors to perform such an analysis in the 1960s would have been quite limited.
A 707 at 600 mph (rougly 520 knots) impacting on what floor? That whole three page paper smells of fish for a few reasons. The design assumption most likely is that an airliner would be a bit low on altitude, or lost in bad weather and hit one of the top floors of the building. That probably would not get the cascading pancaking of the floors below started. You don't chop a tree down by using the ax on the top, but down low. You will note that the second aircraft hit considerabely lower on the building than the first, and IIRC, the second building fell first. (Sorry if I recall incorrectly.) Both hit well below the top floors.

Now, if the design spec (an affordable one) was to withstand an airplane typically flying at those speeds in and around the New York Approach Control's air space, you would model it for between 200 and 300 knots, per FAA Air Traffic Control Regulations for approach or takeoff. The odd take off that went haywire (think pilots with vertigo, bad weather, electrical failure of flight instruments) is not travelling at 520-600 knots.

The design difference in strength, and cost, would be immense due to the
KE = "1/2*m*V^2" (where KE is Kinetic energy, m = mass and V = velocity)

energy transfer at impact. I don't see any civil engineer, nor an architect, over desiging a building that way and keeping the contract.

For What It's Worth

DR

[Kent1]

Don't count on hanging around too long if you try that. This was posted in the LC Lounge forum by administrator turturis:

I'm certainly seeing an increased frustration amoung the CT'ers.
A delay in the movie and now this...sounds like trouble in the LC camp.

[Darth Rotor]

It is possible they're using plastic reinforcement or fiber reinforcement instead of rebar, but that isn't very common except in special cases.
I don't think so, not in 1970. I'd bet on the conventional method, due to cost and schedule.

Then again, "Plastics, Ben." ;)

DR

[MarkyX]

Okay, now I need to do a Nazi picture.

[T.A.M.]

I think you'll find posting way down over at LC now. Who will Jennabell and JohnDoeX argue with. Just as well...leave them to their flawed research. I think with the new PM book due out, and with others catching on to their crap, it won't be long before their house of cards comes crumbling down...

[apathoid]

I am also fairly convinced that John Doh is not a pilot, for completely subjective reasons.

The main one is that he uses ENTIRELY too much jargon and acronyms. I have worked for 15 years in a technical field that is pretty well boiling over with acronyms and jargon, and I don't think even the nerdiest nerd among us here at Nerdville use that much jargon even when it's just insider shop-talk. Certainly we don't inflict it upon Others, unless we're trying to be intentionally obscure and/or appear smarter than we really are.


Spot on! I've been convinced since I read his first post. When I first asked him what he flew, he said something to the effect of "MEI CFII ATP - do you know what that means? look it up " I knew exactly what it meant, but thats not something an airline pilot 20 years removed from earning those certificates would say. Later he said something like "I have XXX hours on the Honeywell XXXX" Uhhh, those arent airplanes, jonny boy!

[T.A.M.]

It is funny, with all the times he pointed to "evidence" on things, that he never once provided a scan of his licence, or credentials, or anything.

JohnDoeX, if your out there, that would be a great start to proving you are actually an expert on the field you claim to be, as well as some recent photos fo you next to one of your current planes.

[kevin]

A 707 at 600 mph (rougly 520 knots) impacting on what floor?

Only the summary is available, not the actual calcs so this isn't known. A later study was done for an impact at the 80th floor, but it was to analyze building sway only.

I don't see any civil engineer, nor and architect, over desiging a building that way and keeping the contract.

Do you know many structural engineers? All the ones I know (and I work for an engineering company) would exactly overdesign a building that way. Architects don't design structural systems for buildings so they would not do so.

The building was designed to withstand wind forces larger than the building codes required, so they had already overdesigned there.

[sleahead]

Yep, I'm done too until 2009. I wonder if they purged the Bad Astronomy folks that were doing so well (and so politely) on the Moon Hoax thread so DavidC could claim 'victory' in that topic as well.

I guess the One True Religion could not abide heretics...especially inteliigent, skeptical ones (they're always the worse, you know ;) )

Going to be a run on badges.

Edited to add--I'm locked out from home too boot. So my days on the LC Forum are done.

Hutch, I'm stunned. You and Dylan were getting on so well. Remember that sweet PM he sent you after the museum debacle just two days ago?. Now I see that PM as a cynical attempt to distance himself from the purge that he knew was coming.

[MarkyX]

Anyone got a link to that "We won't cater to skeptics" anymore, essentially acting like nazis?

[defaultdotxbe]

Anyone got a link to that "We won't cater to skeptics" anymore, essentially acting like nazis?
just to shine them on i should tell them to hotlink the skeptics forum to SLC, lol

[kevin]

I don't think so, not in 1970. I'd bet on the conventional method, due to cost and schedule.

Then again, "Plastics, Ben." ;)

DR

I was referring to the picture of the NEW building going up that had a concrete core -- it's being built now. A comment was made that it didn't have rebar in concrete and I doubted it.

The WTC did not have a concrete core, so no reinforcement of any kind there.

[mrfreeze]

Considering that anybody who would argue with him is now banned, I somehow doubt JDX cares about if he can prove his credentials anymore.

[Darth Rotor]

Only the summary is available, not the actual calcs so this isn't known. A later study was done for an impact at the 80th floor, but it was to analyze building sway only.



Do you know many structural engineers? All the ones I know (and I work for an engineering company) would exactly overdesign a building that way. Architects don't design structural systems for buildings so they would not do so.

Sure, but architects typically have a significant input on the final design.

A decade or so ago, I served with a few Navy Civil Engineers, reservists, who worked in building construction in their civilian jobs. It's been a few years since I spoke with any of them.

My remark on the design is that designing for a (load * safety factor) based on an expected approach speed of a 707 (200-300 knots) requires roughly One Fourth of the strength (well, ability to absorb the impact load and recover) of a design for a bit over twice the speed. The (higher impact spec * safety factor) would tend to increase material and cost siginficantly.

I learned a bit about safety factors in my Mechanical Engineering days, but I am not a civil engineer so I am left groping a bit at skyscraper design. Bridge trusses, our favorite model, aren't that good of a comparison.

Applying safety factors is an art, and is an exercise in Risk Management. (Are you an engineer, or another sort of engineering firm employee?) Cost/risk decisions happen on any construction project. The WTC designers obviously applied a generous safety factor to the design, whatever the final spec, as witnessed by the fact that the buildings took an impact load coming in at 400+ to 500+ knots -- and stood. The fire (per previous comments and NIST investigation) provided the critical chink in the armor of the structure's strength.

DR

[Class]

watch this video (linked in the LC Nuke thread) they show a small video artifact and claim that this is from the EMP, I am not kidding. The entire video is only 3-4 minutes long, it is a trailer for a larger movie coming out in September. I can not believe how much stupid these people can cram into 3 minutes. My favorite part is their "20 reasons why it was a WMD" this would be great comedy if it were not about such a serious matter.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3211807290597119388&q=wmd+at+the+wtc

edited to add link
Gotta love how at 1:45, reason #4 is written as "Ponds of molten metal in basements of WTC 1, 2 & 7." but is read as "Ponds of molten steel...". Emphasis mine.

I closed the movie shortly after that, I was already feeling sick.

[Kent1]

I saw this at a CT site LOL!!

http://www.pumpitout.com/phone_calls/benjamin_chertoff.mp3

For the second time Ben Chertoff is NOT a cousin of Department of Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff.
LOL!

[T.A.M.]

Kent1:

You mean for the 5002nd time...lol

Class etcs..

It is funny that there new theory is that an WMD was used. So they could get one into the WTC unnoticed, but couldn't get any into a bunker or building anywhere in iraq...ya....okie dokie

[Johnny Pixels]

I can't believe they actually just ditched the skeptic forum. Well I can, but I can't believe they actually were so hypocritical to ban any dissenting views and turn the whole of the forum into a pat-on-the-back-society.

[T.A.M.]

This guy at Pumpitout.com, he is perfect for the CT crowd. They all remind me of a bunch of godamn highschool kids...oh wait, i forgot, they are a bunch of highschool kids...

[T.A.M.]

Well apparently Johndox is still over at LC, and is causing a bit of a stir in the Lounge (guess JDX hasnt gotten to it yet).

Apparently they've been going on about a call that "Shure", who apparently is the guy who runs pumpitout.com, made to FEMA. Well he was drunk at the time, so he made a complete idiot of himself, and Johdox is calling him on it. So Johndox asks him for his phone number, and "Shure" has published it there...I wonder where this will end up...

[mrfreeze]

You forgot to mention that I personify what's wrong with this country.

[gumboot]

Wow... that "mini-nuke" in a cone-of-destruction...

That's just... wow.

It has shot straight to the top echelons of stupid.

-Andrew

[T.A.M.]

Who forgot to mention it?? Was that sarcasm...very dry...lol

[mrfreeze]

Never mind, I sometimes fail at the whole "making a coherent post" thing. Stupid midnight shifts.

So in that case I'll mention it myself: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9926 Since I don't believe that the country has turned to bs in the past 5 years, I personify what's wrong with it's citizenry.

[Johnny Pixels]

Just thought I'd highlight this thread, to make sure it's not just me getting in a huff over nothing:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3025

I was under the impression that moderators were supposed to be neutral in cases like this.

[Brainster]

Just got an amusing email from someone on the board of a Public Access TV station. They want "my" approval to show Loose Change on their channel. My thought is to write back and thank them for their interest, but it has been brought to our attention that the film is riddled with inaccuracies and mistakes, and so we would prefer if they hold off for now.

:)

[defaultdotxbe]

My thought is to write back and thank them for their interest, but it has been brought to our attention that the film is riddled with inaccuracies and mistakes, and so we would prefer if they hold off for now.

:)
do it, or send them a copy of Screw Loose Change

[Dog Town]

Hey all! Just watched the cat from 911 debunk, on O Reiles! He said again that 77 hit the pent at 500. I also just read in the aerospace post, that is was going 350. Damn that's got me. Aerospace cites their speed from the,orange, balck box. Hmmm. Any thoughts. I know you will! Thanx.

Brain;
Link them to Marky flick as well!

[mrfreeze]

Holy ****! JFK resigned as admin over the deletion of the skeptics board! http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9929

[Brainster]

do it, or send them a copy of Screw Loose Change

Hmmm, maybe combine the ideas--send them the email and say we'll mail them an early look at our Final Cut? Markyx, can you put together a DVD of your film?

[Hutch]

Hutch, I'm stunned. You and Dylan were getting on so well. Remember that sweet PM he sent you after the museum debacle just two days ago?. Now I see that PM as a cynical attempt to distance himself from the purge that he knew was coming.

Could be, depends on how much hands-on dylan is there. If he was responsible for making johndoex and jennabell mods then he would be a fool not to know what was coming. OTOH, if Roxdog made them mods, then either he didn't know or could play the innocent.

Either way, I'm done with him. At least until LC:FE comes out sometime...

I still wonder if Mr. Avery mounted this horse thinking it would lead him to "fortune and glory, kid; fortune and glory" and now realizes he's on the back of a bucking bull that won't let him off and would turn on him n a second if he did dismount. If he doesn't feel that way yet, I suspect it won't be long in coming...

[60hzxtl]

Just got an amusing email from someone on the board of a Public Access TV station. They want "my" approval to show Loose Change on their channel. My thought is to write back and thank them for their interest, but it has been brought to our attention that the film is riddled with inaccuracies and mistakes, and so we would prefer if they hold off for now.

:)


Better yet, encourage them to show it, but add the caveat that the footage contained in it might be infringing on copyrights of others and subject the Public Access Station to liabilities from the rightful owners:dig:


P.S. the minimum copyright infringment settlement is $10K per instance.

[Brainster]

Could be, depends on how much hands-on dylan is there. If he was responsible for making johndoex and jennabell mods then he would be a fool not to know what was coming. OTOH, if Roxdog made them mods, then either he didn't know or could play the innocent.

Either way, I'm done with him. At least until LC:FE comes out sometime...

I still wonder if Mr. Avery mounted this horse thinking it would lead him to "fortune and glory, kid; fortune and glory" and now realizes he's on the back of a bucking bull that won't let him off and would turn on him n a second if he did dismount. If he doesn't feel that way yet, I suspect it won't be long in coming...

Riding the tiger is easy; it's getting off that can be tricky. :)

[Dog Town]

Never mind. I skim to fast at times.The aerospace does not state that. It is Russ Pickering.

[gumboot]

I still wonder if Mr. Avery mounted this horse thinking it would lead him to "fortune and glory, kid; fortune and glory" and now realizes he's on the back of a bucking bull that won't let him off and would turn on him n a second if he did dismount. If he doesn't feel that way yet, I suspect it won't be long in coming...


There's something a little morbidly fascinating about watching the LC forums. I only jumped in recently, but after having one serious line of research spammed with endless messy websites that claim "Operation Northern Vigilance" was an exercise, I pretty much gave up on discussing evidence.

I became a social commentator instead... :p

The LC story seems to be very much like a micro-version (in tame scale) of Nazism. A doctrine is created. The doctrine is embraced. The doctrine gets out of control. The followers of the doctrine find themselves mired, turn on everyone that dissents (including their own) and establish an absolute facsist dictatorship.

It is an interesting study into human behaviour...

The LC boards are quite literally the web forum equivelant of a Nazi state. In ideology, and in deed. Frankly, I'm happy to be cast out whilst telling them this. Better that than remaining under their rules.

-Andrew

P.S. Besides, if I want a fight, I'll just go post in one of the Politics Threads here... ;)

[T.A.M.]

I noticed that JFK is still showing as an Admin, so even though he reisgned in public, he has posted 3 times afterward, and his avatar still shows "Administrator"

Just a note.

[MarkyX]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-2967276362246845611&q=obsession

It's back up.

[Regnad Kcin]

the skeptics forum is no longer.

we arent catering to trolls, shills, or general havoc wreakers...Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your friend's eye."

[WildCat]

The LC boards are quite literally the web forum equivelant of a Nazi state. In ideology, and in deed. Frankly, I'm happy to be cast out whilst telling them this. Better that than remaining under their rules.

I love hdogs response to your last post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9937&view=findpost&p=6567046):
These owners of this board pay the bills and make the rules, get it?

Moron.
Uh, no moron.. it's an InvisionFree board... get it? Free.

[kevin]

Sure, but architects typically have a significant input on the final design.

Not on the structural components that hold their design together. The plans have to be stamped by a structural engineer. The architect will work with the engineers, but the engineer is the one that ensure that building will stand.
eta: more importantly the structural engineer is the one that bears responsibility. Check who lost their license in the Hyatt Regency skywalk collapse in Kansas City. It wasn't the architect.

My remark on the design is that designing for a (load * safety factor) based on an expected approach speed of a 707 (200-300 knots) requires roughly One Fourth of the strength (well, ability to absorb the impact load and recover) of a design for a bit over twice the speed. The (higher impact spec * safety factor) would tend to increase material and cost siginficantly.

Your assuming the design was done strictly to handle the impact of the aircraft and failing to take into account there may have been other, more likely events, that they did design for that made the building able to take a full on impact. It could very well be that:
(higher impact spec * safety factor) < (high wind load spec * safety factor)

The wind loads they designed for were higher than needed. Although wind load is different than a (comparatively) point impact of a plane, beefing up the design for higher wind loads would also increase the ability of the building to absorb the impact of a plane. Furthermore, the wtc design was to transfer as little load to the core as possible, meaning the outer surface had to take much more load than a typical building, again beefing up that suppport system (and reducing the interior system, opening up more rentable space.)

Remember this building did take an impact from a 500 mph 767 and stay standing. The 3 page summary claimed it could take a 600 mph 707 strike and remain standing. I see no reason to doubt this.

[Joytown]

Welp .. i it appears I've been banned from the LC boards too.

I think what happened is that a lot of news agencies are picking up their story and they are starting to see an influx of new readers driven there. I think they just wanted to ban all the opposing points of view and get rid of that pesky skeptics forum so they didn't have to explain all the inconvenient facts that didn't jibe with their "truth".

Should be interesting though, since they don't have us to actually fact check for them. Wait til the MSM realizes that they're a bunch of frauds who do little to no poor research, rely on authoritative statements from "scientists" far outside their own discipline, and who have absolutely no plausible alternatives for the events of 9/11.

Asking questions, my butt.

[gumboot]

I love hdogs response to your last post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9937&view=findpost&p=6567046):

Uh, no moron.. it's an InvisionFree board... get it? Free.


I find their "whoever owns the place makes the rules" line of thought laughable.

A company that owns a carpark building can just randomly tow away any cars from the building that they don't like the colour of.

But they should expect the owners of those cars to make some pretty strong comments in response...

-Andrew

[Brainster]

I love this part of the explanation (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9937&view=findpost&p=6564927) for closing the Skeptic's Forum:

There is a difference between someone who is willing to consider the big picture and how all the clues fit together and someone who can't bring themselves to entertain the idea that the world is more complicated than prime time television allows.

Heh, yeah, the world is much more complicated than prime time television; why, it's as complicated as major motion pictures like Capricorn One, Three Days of the Condor, and JFK.

[rwguinn]

Sure, but architects typically have a significant input on the final design.

A decade or so ago, I served with a few Navy Civil Engineers, reservists, who worked in building construction in their civilian jobs. It's been a few years since I spoke with any of them.

My remark on the design is that designing for a (load * safety factor) based on an expected approach speed of a 707 (200-300 knots) requires roughly One Fourth of the strength (well, ability to absorb the impact load and recover) of a design for a bit over twice the speed. The (higher impact spec * safety factor) would tend to increase material and cost siginficantly.

<<<snipped saftey factor stuff--rwg>>>
DR Archetects may have a say, but structural engineers have to determine if it is safe. They are the ones whose name and stamp are on the final drawings and inspection documents.
also:
Under what circumstances would any civialian aircraft be doing much more than 250-300kt at 1300 feet AGL? Even with the altimeter really screwed up, generally one would reach 500+kt only at altitude--you use up a lot of energy climbing, thus lower airspeed, and who in their right mind descends at high speed?

[njslim]

19 "decontamination" procedure seen at WTC with hi-pressure water spraying.

People ferried across the Hudson to Liberty State Park in Jersey City were
"Decon" by various FD Haz Mat squads (Newark, Jersey City, Nutley). Over
5,000 people were treated here. One of my buddies on the scene told of
one well endowded woman stripping down for the decon (being washed
down with water from fire hose) - pity didn't get any pictures

[60hzxtl]

19 "decontamination" procedure seen at WTC with hi-pressure water spraying.

People ferried across the Hudson to Liberty State Park in Jersey City were
"Decon" by various FD Haz Mat squads (Newark, Jersey City, Nutley). Over
5,000 people were treated here. One of my buddies on the scene told of
one well endowded woman stripping down for the decon (being washed
down with water from fire hose) - pity didn't get any pictures


No doubt - but the implication of the video is that it was because of Nuclear contamination, not just demo crud.

[Regnad Kcin]

...I personally find many (but not all skeptics) very arrogant, intellectual "jocks".Clever. Of course, as the great jock Dizzy Dean once said, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

You know that virtually every post in the Loose Change thread over at JREF is about self-congradulations and being "1-up"? They are also really blind to it. Reflective thinking doesnt seem to come easy to them.Spare me the diagnosis, doc. How can someone, or for that matter many people, be "blind" to something you have created out of your imagination?

The thousands upon thousands of posts created here on this topic contain a high level of thoughtful, analytical content. (Certainly much more than this silly little so-called "conspiracy" deserves.) Nevertheless, this is an open, lightly-moderated forum, so there's always going to be some content that some find foolish or ill-advised. Nevertheless, you want to play sanctimonious? Fine. I'll give you something to feel warm & cuddly about:

How dare you, in the midst of a forum (LC) created and populated by liars and simpletons, have anything but the mildest criticism for certain JREF posters? This forum, with its even-handed and fair moderation, is one of the preeminent sites for considered analysis on a wide variety of issues. It has no agenda nor cause, other than the desire to promote and apply critical thinking to all manner of topics.

Quite a few advocates of certain or all aspects of these alternate 9/11 conspiracy theories have come here, hoping to play in the big leagues. They quickly learned that their incomplete, flawed, and puerile musings can't and won't cut it.

Middle-eastern anarchists at the direction of Osama bin Laden carried out a religious-inspired plot to do harm to places and people they consider enemies. That's it. You and others like you can stamp your feet and cry to mama 'til the end of time, and it won't change that simple fact. And whining about the big, bad JREFers who've been around and around and around with "Loose Change" and other inanity is simply unseemly. Best to stop.

A Moderator / Admin is a very important position on a forum - I have been one on a board for 5 years. To cut off an entire area of the forum without even discussing it is, at the very least, incredibly impolite. There is always a big group of lurkers on any forum - for many lurkers, fora are very important to them - they follow debates closely, the actions of Mods and Admins are seen as very important examples of the Forum "culture". I believe in what Deming said "Drive out fear!" - You know I feel a little right now? A little "Hey they might ban me too..."Welcome to the lie that is the "truth."

[mrfreeze]

I actually had a couple interesting pms from Searcher, let me see if he will give permission for me to post them.

[gumboot]

Heh, yeah, the world is much more complicated than prime time television; why, it's as complicated as major motion pictures like Capricorn One, Three Days of the Condor, and JFK.


I remember when I first started studying cinematography at film school, the first lesson was on "Black Box Theory".

Basically, it's the theory by which all electronic media devices work. It is a very simple theory:

INPUT SIGNAL = X
BLACK BOX CONVERTS X TO Y
OUTPUT SIGNAL = Y

That's really all there is to understanding how televisions, cd players, dvd players, cameras, etc... work.

For example a film camera:

Input = light
1st Black Box (lens) converts light to focused light
Output = focused light

Input = focused light
2nd Black Box (gate) converts focused light to image on celluloid
Output = image on celluloid

Or a video camera:

Input = light
1st Black Box (lens) converts light to focused light
Output = focused light

input = focused light
2nd Black Box (CCD) converts focused light to electrical pulse
output = electrical pulse

input = electrical pulse
3rd Black Box (recorder) converts electrical pulse to magnetic pattern on tape
output = magnetic pattern on tape

And so on...

What I learnt from this is life isn't complicated at all. Sure, it APPEARS complicated. But only because it's made up of a lot of componants. The individual componants can be understood in very simple terms. Once you understand all these simple individual componants, suddenly the overall system becomes very simple (just as a video camera becomes simple once you understand it's just three black boxes).

Of course there's always more details to be learned - there's aperture size and focal point and shutter speed and CDD size and a myriad of other factors. But these aren't necessary to understand how the overall system works.

Life is the same. It's very easy to understand the collision of an airliner with a building if you first understand the various componants. They can be understood very simply. Of course, you can take a more indepth look at all the details, and get a much more precise understand of it - such as by being a Structural Engineer and creating a computer simulation, but this will simply add detail to the more simple overall structure of the event.

Now, I'm not a Structural Engineer, so I don't bother with those details - half of them are beyond my understanding anyway. I can tell from looking at the simple overview that it all makes sense.

In contrast the CTers ignore the overview, and instead go straight for the details - the tiny bits and pieces that they lack the expertise to understand.

And the reason they obsess over them is because the "big picture" doesn't hold any water. Compare:

Al Qaeda, a fanatical religious terrorist organisation, executed a plan in which nineteen members took advantage of western freedoms to hijack four commercial airliners and crash them into buildings in the USA as a demonstration of their hatred of the west.

AND

The United States government, working as a front for a broader global network of powerful individuals who control a multitude of corporates and national governments, staged an attack on their own nation in two elements.

THE EXECUTION
Pre-planted explosives were used to destroy a number of buildings in New York City, whilst a military drone weapon was fired into the Pentagon building. This stage of the operation was carried out by the USSS, DoD, CIA, and a private demolition company.

THE DECEPTION
Simultaneously, advanced technologies were exploited to fool the world population into believing the attack had been carried out by terrorists who hijacked commercial airliners. These technologies included, but were not limited to; voice morphing, holographic projection, real time insertion of computer imagery into broadcast images, mind control, and automated flight control.
An elaborate ruse involving distorted timelines, misdirected orders, and military exercises ensured a scenario of chaos on the day of the attack to explain the government's failure to prevent the attack.
This stage of the operation was carried out by a combination of dozens of government organisations at both the Federal and State level.

The purpose of these attacks was to enable the government to crush civil liberties and impose a totalitarian regime to use as a launching pad from which to conquer the entire world. To accomodate this early "advance" forces were deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq. Artificial generation of instability in these nations has enabled the establishment of permanent military bases from which to launch the future more widespread invasion of further territories.

Now. Which of these two above "overview" summaries records higher on the BS meter?

-Andrew

EDIT. To fix bad writing.

[gumboot]

Does anyone know the website of the nutball who does the super-enlargment of blemishes in WTC photos to prove there are alien space ships with reptilian pilots?

My flatmate simply refuses to believe anyone proposes such an explanation. She thinks I made it up.

-Andrew

[mrfreeze]

Can someone do me a favor and let "Painter" know that I got suspended out of nowhere and without warning, so I won't be able to reply to him until the 10th?

[MarkyX]

Just got this in the mail!


There are actual photos of the vault from the outside and the INSIDE ~ showing the gold and silver that was recovered. Also, the people who were there (taking the photos and doing the recovery work) say that although the NY Post reported that the goods were removed in a day, it actually took a week, but the police thought that was the best advertising they could get so they didn't correct them

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/5964/bankvaultpn4.jpg

http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_01.html

Nova Scotia Bank Vault

RICH GARLOCK: Some currency vaults owned by Citbank and Chase were badly damaged or burned in the fires that raged for 20 hours after the attack. The Nova Scotia bank vault, however, built inside the old Hudson-Manhattan terminal under WTC 4, was perfectly intact, albeit wet. FEMA's Miami Task Force marked the vault as searched on the 13th of September. We didn't go in to retrieve the metals until late October when we were able to clear a truck ramp with access to the area below WTC 7.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4351/bankvaultinteriorvo4.jpg

http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html

RICH GARLOCK: The vault was huge — two levels, 3,000 square feet each. When they opened the door, I realized why it was so big: there was a lot of gold and silver. The silver bars were like large loaves of bread, only they weighed about 70 pounds. The gold was smaller, but also very heavy, about 28 pounds each. It was around Halloween and I joked that I was going to come dressed as a Brinks guard. The team did a test run with the Brinks truck to make sure that it had the clearance, driving it up and then back out. The next morning the New York Post reported the vault had been emptied. In fact, it took a week to remove. The police said, "Hey, we couldn't have better publicity."

[60hzxtl]

Just got this in the mail!


Ah Man!

Don't tell Dylan, he's going to have to change the whole premise of his caper movie!

[WildCat]

Just got this in the mail!
I linked to that a few times in this massive thread. Obviously the conspirators missed that lode.

[MarkyX]

Dumbest. Hate. Mail. Ever.

He posted this on YouTube profile as well. He is 19 years old.


U ignorant **** where u ****n droped on ur head when u were a baby or somthing, or where u raped by ur dad on christmas eve when ever he dressed up as santa claus and you sat on his lap under a blanket nAKED. But getting to the point here and off about u getting raped every day by ur dad u take a good logical video that makes sense to whoever watches it and u try to trash it with ur gay comments and also trying to act smart in the process, Just face it u like a guy who looks like a ****n monkey u ignorant twat you have no life and I also hate to tell you but you suck and u will die at a early age just because no one likes you or u might live a long time and be a outkast of human life and eventually u will lead to the demise of this race as we know it Ur a ****N GAY ASS **** UR REALLY A TRUE BALL LICKER LOOSE CHANGE I BELIVE IT AND BECAUSE U TRYED TO SPILL OUT UR OWN STUPID PROPAGANDA. U SUck.

PS: IF I EVER SEE YOU U BETTER NOT LET ME CATCH U STANDING UP WHEN U PEE.

[T.A.M.]

Nice to see another literate, intelligent, well spoken LC fan...lol

[SRW]

This I a record for me, Three posts in a row and not one deleted. They must be too busy purging everyone else.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9496&view=findpost&p=6569827

[Regnad Kcin]

Dumbest. Hate. Mail. Ever.

He posted this on YouTube profile as well. He is 19 years old.Well, you can't argue with that! Where do I sign up for the conspiracy?

[WildCat]

It is fun watching that forum self-destruct. Like a slow-motion train wreck.

[defaultdotxbe]

and be a outkast of human life
thats gotta be some sort of trademark infringement, lol

[T.A.M.]

It is the hypocritical nature of it that bothers me. I mean if the point of their site was purely for promotion of the movie, then why bother putting up the skeptics forum in the first place. Now they've made themselves look like fascists, when they didnt really have to.

[CurtC]

OK, how about this for an opening post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9963):
Everybody post your most convincing images related to 9/11 bull

...Skeptics can easily blow off words, but if you show them a picture it's much harder for them to do that

Yes, we skeptics might just blow off their words, but we can't argue with pictures! And videos must be hundreds of times better!

So when we discuss topics over here, would you say we use more words, or pictures? Over at my other favorite message board, the Straight Dope Message Board, they don't even have the caability to post pictures, and they still manage to have a pretty high level of discourse. Funny that.

[JamesB]

OK, how about this for an opening post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9963):


Yes, we skeptics might just blow off their words, but we can't argue with pictures! And videos must be hundreds of times better!

So when we discuss topics over here, would you say we use more words, or pictures? Over at my other favorite message board, the Straight Dope Message Board, they don't even have the caability to post pictures, and they still manage to have a pretty high level of discourse. Funny that.

I find it amusing that they argue the building fell into its own footprint, thus it was a controlled demolition, while simultaneously arguing that the debris was flung so far out, that it must also be a controlled demolition. Which is it?

[gumboot]

For the record,

I've taken a look at the analysis of the photo of the UA 93 mushroom cloud which CTers claim is a bomb and too big... or something...

I did my own analysis and the smoke matches perfectly what I'd expect from such an event at such a distance. The smoke cloud has a maximum width of 600 metres, with the central column rising about 60 metres wide, about 180 metres downwind (in the direction of flight) of the impact point.

Given the 10 MPH wind speed at the time this matches where I'd expect the cloud to be about 40 seconds after impact (or about 32 seconds after the photographer heard the impact). Smoke clouds size, expansion, colour, density, etc... is consistant, 40s post-event, with all other fireballing air crashing I have seen video of.

-Andrew

[Blackadder_no]

Wow...

I've never even made a single post at the LC forum, and I've been banned as well! :boggled:
(That has to qualify for a badge, right?)

Incidentially, my username over there was Baldrick - which may indicate that someone over there has seen me here (all 7 posts...) and made the Blackadder/Baldrick connection.

Yup, it's nazism all right...

[Dazed]

They might also have just banned the range of ips in which you reside, or the domain. Funny you should concoct some elaborate conspiracy theory to explain it.

[Shrinker]

Wow, I wonder if there's anyone left. My alter-ego Blinker just got banned too. I had two posts, both a little cheeky, but both made nearly two weeks ago in a fairly obscure thread. They must be actively searching for skeptics to ban! I guess somebody's getting addicted to the thrill of it.

[Obviousman]

It's a wide IP ban, all right.

No-one on the SSSF board (has members from all around Australia) can even see the board. People who have never been there are banned. At this time, it would appear that no-one in Australia can see the board.

Fascism in action.

[gumboot]

No-one on the SSSF board (has members from all around Australia) can even see the board. People who have never been there are banned. At this time, it would appear that no-one in Australia can see the board.

Fascism in action.


I guess they didn't like my comments about the Night of the Long Knives...

:rolleyes:

I have been perma-banned too.

:D

-Andrew

[Dazed]

I just created an account there alright.

I don't see what the big deal is.

[gtc]

It's a wide IP ban, all right.

No-one on the SSSF board (has members from all around Australia) can even see the board. People who have never been there are banned. At this time, it would appear that no-one in Australia can see the board.

Fascism in action.

I'm an Aussie, I could get in this morning, but can't now. I have never been registered there or posted.

Wow...

I've never even made a single post at the LC forum, and I've been banned as well! :boggled:
(That has to qualify for a badge, right?)

Incidentially, my username over there was Baldrick - which may indicate that someone over there has seen me here (all 7 posts...) and made the Blackadder/Baldrick connection.

Yup, it's nazism all right...

They might also have just banned the range of ips in which you reside, or the domain. Funny you should concoct some elaborate conspiracy theory to explain it.

Is it really a conspiracy theory for him to say that they may have banned him because they linked his two user names? If so, why is it worse than thinking that they may have banned his IP address?

[gumboot]

Is it really a conspiracy theory for him to say that they may have banned him because they linked his two user names? If so, why is it worse than thinking that they may have banned his IP address?


I doubt they linked his names...

They didn't click to mine...

Gumboot... rubber_boot.

And when johndoex asked for someone to ask him "anything" about flight he totally missed my joke when I asked:

"What is the air speed velocity of a fully laden swallow in flight?"

Thus demonstrating he is not familiar with classic British humour...:D

Those kids have probably never heard of Blackadder...

:cool:

-Andrew

[gtc]

I just created an account there alright.

I don't see what the big deal is.

I can't create an account. In fact, I can't get past a message which says 'Sorry, you are not permitted to use this board'.

I wonder why you have access and we don't.

[gtc]

I doubt they linked his names...

I doubt it too. What Dazed posted does make more sense. But that doesn't mean Blackadder was posting a conspiracy theory, as Dazed implied.

[Obviousman]

I can't create an account. In fact, I can't get past a message which says 'Sorry, you are not permitted to use this board'.

I wonder why you have access and we don't.

Yep, it would seem that no Australians can post there. That might not be correct, but I haven't seen someone in Australia that has been able to even SEE the board since this morning (or thereabouts) as yet.

[gumboot]

Well...

They made it quite clear they were going to get rid of all skeptics. In fact they even admitted they'd been talking about it for a few weeks...

Technically it *is* a conspiracy... (well, it's not exactly secret... but hey...)

-Andrew

[gumboot]

It's not just Australia...

Myself and my friends have tried with three different New Zealand ISPs. All are blocked (none of these other people have ever been to the site before).

I can't believe they blocked the whole country just coz I said they were behaving like facists.

-Andrew

ETA. I think I've done a great service to my nation by preventing any future kiwis from stumbling into their garbage.

[Dazed]

To presume that they would go to such intense scrutiny is an unneccessary leap. I know its nice to be "persecuted" for your idealogical prowess, but manufacturing that persecution is pretty lame.

Fact is, they didn't all come over to the board and cross reference all the usernames with old Rowan Atkins shows, but you'd like to imply as much, as it jives with your notion of an archetypal conspiracy theorist.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Death to the tinfoil hatters and all. I just felt obligated to respond to GTCs question.

[Ramooone]

im in nyc and im banned as well

[gtc]

I don't understand what you are trying to say Dazed.

We have the following evidence:
1) No known persons, with Australian or NZ IPs are able to access the board.
2) Numerous skeptics have been banned in recent days and much content has been deleted.

Now we have some theories to explain that:
1) Someone banned Australian and NZ IPs to stop particular skeptics from going to the board.
2) Someone has connected Blackadder's accounts (this doesn't require cross referencing Rowan Atkinson comedies, simply recognising that both users have similar styles and Blackadder related names.

Neither reflects a persecution complex and neither is hugely unrealistic.

I don't know why we can't access the forum. It could be any number of reasons. If you had not said that you could access the site, then I would have probably thought that the whole site was down. As it stands, my suspicion is that they have banned all non-US IPs, but this just a hunch. (edited to add: this doesn't accord with what Ramoone says).

Dazed, since you can access the forum, is there anything mentioned there about why certain IPs can no longer access it?

[Obviousman]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum?

1. Australia
2. Yes
3. Yes

[gtc]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum?

1) Australia.
2) No, but visited from this computer.
3) Yes.

[Dazed]

Meh. Anyway, I wanted to ask a question here.

What is the generally accepted cause of those "squibs" in so many of the pictures and videos?

[sleahead]

I'm in Britain and I can't even see the board. Let me remind you all of Dylan's words, just three days ago, in a post by Hutch:

Well I'll be a Guinness-Hating Irishman...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...but I'm going to have to say something nice about Dylan Avery here.

You know about my thread with him a couple of pages back (less than 24 hours ago) where I challenged him on his "proof" and he published my IP.

We, he did pull that and I told him by PM (with concurrence from the JREF poster) that his IP posting had been reported-I felt that since he had pulled it (pun intended) that I owed him at least that much notification.

So I get a PM back from him Firday (read it this morning), whch says in part:


Sir,
Thank you for the heads up. Again, I apologize for how things happened, but a lot of people come in here with fists swinging and it's hard to differentiate sometimes.



I'm glad that, although you disagree with our premise, we can have a rational conversation. On that note, all I say to you, sir, is that you are obviously an intelligent and honorable person. By implying that the United States Government might have had a hand in the attacks, I am not implicating the entire government......and the fact of the matter is that government employees are, for the most part, good people who just want to come home from work to their families after a long day.


And then a bit of a shocker:


P.S. Quest banned your home IP? I'll take care of those ASAP. again, thanks for engaging in intelligent debate.


And so it is; I am back on from home on LC, which will decrease my need for workplace posting.

It appears young Mr. Avery can put hubris aside now and then and act relatively reasonable; his ideas are still high-grade bovine fecal matter, IMHO, but it does appear that maybe he isn't the mindless idealogue that some of his more rabid followers over there are.

Of course, we'll see the next time I cross him on an argument...

I'm sure everyone here engaged in an intelligent debate and now they, like Hutch, are banned.

[Obviousman]

Meh. Anyway, I wanted to ask a question here.

What is the generally accepted cause of those "squibs" in so many of the pictures and videos?

Well, i can't speak as any type of expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

To my knowledge, they are expellation of air / dust / etc from floors as they underwent collapse.

I'm sure someone else will be able to give you a better answer.

[gtc]

Meh. Anyway, I wanted to ask a question here.

What is the generally accepted cause of those "squibs" in so many of the pictures and videos?

This post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1532595&postcount=443) seems to be the standard thinking.

I got this from Gravy's index.

He has indexed many of these threads in a spreadsheet. You can find the link, along with several of his excellent resources in his signature.

Edited to add, Obviousman's post is the consensus.

[gumboot]

Meh. Anyway, I wanted to ask a question here.

What is the generally accepted cause of those "squibs" in so many of the pictures and videos?


As the weight of collapse compresses floors together all the air in those floors has to go somewhere. Path of least resistance is through the holes left after the windows disintegrate under frame stress.

Any light weight debris (paper, dust, etc...) is going to be carried out those windows along with the air, thus giving the impression of "squibs".

(Incidentally "squibs" are a special effect used in the film industry to fake explosive bullet hits... oh the irony...)

-Andrew

ETA... Oh, they bet me to it. Twice. :p

[Obviousman]

More people from Australia report being unable to view the board.

A poster in Germany also reports getting the "banned" (i.e. you are not permitted...) message.

[Matthew Best]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum?

1. England
2. No
3. Yes

[gumboot]

I'm sure everyone here engaged in an intelligent debate and now they, like Hutch, are banned.


To be fair, once it was clear how things were being run on LC (I had just figured you guys always exaggerated... :p) I didn't exactly engage in intelligent debate...

:rolleyes:

-Andrew

[gumboot]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum?

1. New Zealand
2. Yes
3. Yes

-Andrew

[Dazed]

"Proving that the "squibs" are just material being ejected from the floors collapsing within the building."

That's what my logic would say, if it took into account the highly localized and regular patterns of them. I haven't been able to scare up any other adequate explanations either.

That doesn't seem a sufficient answer.. when you look at it in context. Most of the squibs are very far below the collapse point and seem to be blowing out through the area of about 1 window. To get this from air compression must have had something to do with the elevator shafts, but even then it seems like all the windows on the mechanical floors, where the elevator shafts ended, should have been blowin out, rather than just 1 or 2 with pure straight jets shooting out.

[sleahead]

In answer to Obviousman's survey:

1. Britain
2. Yes
3. Yes

[Dazed]

To clarify, I'm saying I don't think that explanation takes into account the distance of the squibs from the collapse point. One would postulate that if it was a phenomenon due to air pressure then the floors above the "Squibs floors" should be exhibiting it as well, no?

Further, how would the pressure become so localized, so as to blow out 1 or 2 windows and not the rest?

[Dazed]

Not to insult your intelligence or anything, I'm simply submitting something which I feel is inadequately explained for skeptical review.

[Obviousman]

"Further, how would the pressure become so localized, so as to blow out 1 or 2 windows and not the rest?"

Well, because once the build up of pressure has a release / exit, the same force is not exerted on the remaining windows.

[gumboot]

To clarify, I'm saying I don't think that explanation takes into account the distance of the squibs from the collapse point. One would postulate that if it was a phenomenon due to air pressure then the floors above the "Squibs floors" should be exhibiting it as well, no?

Further, how would the pressure become so localized, so as to blow out 1 or 2 windows and not the rest?


That's exactly why NIST, in their report, only gave a hypothesis for a possible collapse sequence, rather than producing concrete findings.

Once those damaged floors gave way the entire building became a live load consisting of millions of elements. It's quite simply impossible to calculate where all those elements are going to go.

Seemingly random things just happen.

We can't see what's happening internally, remember. We don't know what has collapsed internally, where it is collapsing, etc.

-Andrew

[sleahead]

Furthermore, what we are seeing in these pictures is collapse followed by "squibs". In a demolition, you get squibs followed by collapse.

[Jocce]

There's one thing I haven't seen adressed in all the silly claims LCers make and that is the stunt tricks the pilot would have to peform to make the attack at Pentagon. With a few hundred hours of Cessna flying (and thanx to good friends, some jetfighter/airbus simulator testdriving) I was adressing this on a swedish board where I sometimes debate LCers. Here's a translation of my post on the subject if anyone is interested:


There is a lot of talk about the unreal precisionflying it would take to attack the Pentagon with a Boeing 757. Many claim that it would be impossible for a pilot with experience only from single engine Cessnas and a 757 simulator. In my experience the reported flying fits very well how an unexperienced pilot would behave.

First of all, if you claim that it would take enormous precision to fly like this, you take for a fact that the pilot intended to fly exactly like that. But do we know that? Wouldn't it have been easier to just point the nose down and krash in the middle of the pretty big target Pentagon makes from the air? Why make a 270 descending turn and aim for the wall? Why use that much harder approach?

I can very well imagine that a pilot with experience mainly from slow Cessnas would grossly underestimate the speed at which a jetplane travels and therefore overshoot the approach to the Pentagon. He then has to make a gentle descending turn, not banking to hard since he's unexperienced with the aircraft. Finally he almost comes in too low and struggles to keep the plane flying until he hits his target.

Some of you might wonder why I said "gentle descending turn" in that last paragraph. Most stories claim that he was basically spiralling down, almost going into a spin. Let's do some math to clear that up. First the data we need to work with. Here's a quote containing what most people, LCers or not, agree is correct:


Radar data shows Flight 77 crossing the Capitol Beltway and headed toward the Pentagon. However, the plane, flying more than 400 mph, is too high when it nears the Pentagon at 9:35 a.m., crossing the Pentagon at about 7,000 feet up. [CBS News, 9/21/2001; Boston Globe, 11/23/2001] The plane then makes a difficult high-speed descending turn. It makes a "downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn is so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there [is] no fight for control going on."
Source: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=aa77



1. To better understand speeds here in sweden I start by converting from miles per hour (mph) to meters per second (m/s). The highest speed I heard someone claim is 500 miles per hour so let's use that.
500 mph = 224 m/s (1 mph = 0.44704 m/s)

2. How far will you travel in 2.5 minutes, flying at 224 m/s.
224 m/s * 150 sek =33 600 m

3. What's the diameter of the 33 600 meter long circle you're flying in then?
Diameter = Circumference/pi = 33600/pi = 10695 m

Let's stop and think about this. The plane makes a turn on a circle with 10 km diameter. Isn't that very far from the spiralling stunttricks that some claim?

4. Rate of turn, ie. how many degrees per second is the plane turning and what is normal?
The plane turns 270 degrees in 2.5 minutes.
270 degrees / 150 sec = 1.8 degrees/sec

Searching google we find that a standard rate turn (yes, there is something like that) is 2-3 degrees per second. This means the plane banked less than what is normal. That leads to the conclusion that there were no high G-forces involved as some have claimed.

5. Rate of descent and what is standard? The plane descended 7000 feet in 150 sec.
7000 feet=2 134 m
2134m / 150 sek = 854 m/min

Recommended rate of descent at an airspeed of 130 m/s is 548 m/min which really doesn't matter. The airplane doesn't care if you fly upwards or downwards. Strain on the construction is caused by acceleration (change of velocity) and the only way to get that strain here would be to make a steep turn (which is not done as seen above). Max speed for Boeing 757 is 590 mph and that wasn't exceeded so we're ok here also (http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=252) .

In conclusion all values seem to be well within what the aircraft is built for and the rate of turn is even slower than standard. Very far from the dramatic stunt tricks that some claim. But why would some experienced pilots claim that these maneuvers are impossible? Well, if someone asked me if I thought that it was possible for a pilot like me to spiral down in high speed from 7000 feet, return to level flight a few meters above the ground and hit a ground target, I would also have to say I highly doubt that.


The only responses I got to this post were links to articles where someone claim it would be impossible to spiral down bla bla bla...DUH!

[Grundar]

In answer to Obviousman's survey:

1. Sweden
2. No, just reading them
3. Yes, need a log in to view the board and I have no interest in getting a user there.

/Hans

[Mancman]

To clarify, I'm saying I don't think that explanation takes into account the distance of the squibs from the collapse point. One would postulate that if it was a phenomenon due to air pressure then the floors above the "Squibs floors" should be exhibiting it as well, no?

Further, how would the pressure become so localized, so as to blow out 1 or 2 windows and not the rest?

I'd expect it to be exhibited on floors where the air had a direct path to the open floorspace, for example where a stairwell door was been left open or there was a damaged liftshaft door, or some kind of venting equipment. It's worth nothing that in the particular photo the squibs appear to be exactly central to the faces of the building - directly in line with the main hallways in the core:
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_dem23/core-columns.jpe

Perhaps air entering floors would have travelled down these hallways in a concentrated blast, picking up ceiling tiles, chairs, desks, lightweight material, and thrown it through the window directly in the way of this blast.
Though it could also have dispersed evenly around the floor as it entered the open floorspace between the core and perimeter, in which case the central nature of those particular jets is quite odd.

It is fun watching that forum self-destruct. Like a slow-motion train wreck.

And we all got chucked off at the last station for arguing with the conductor. :rolleyes:

[Gravy]

To clarify, I'm saying I don't think that explanation takes into account the distance of the squibs from the collapse point. One would postulate that if it was a phenomenon due to air pressure then the floors above the "Squibs floors" should be exhibiting it as well, no?

Further, how would the pressure become so localized, so as to blow out 1 or 2 windows and not the rest?
Hi, dazed.
A couple of points about the "squibs:"

1) Please use video, not still photos, when analyzing them.

2) The air pressure does not have to be "localized." A logical explanation for the "squibs" appearing randomly on non-mechanical floors is that those random windows were cracked, broken, or otherwise compromised.

3) The large "squibs" near the top are clearly material flowing out of the building, not being blasted out. Run the videos back and forth. It's obvious the material is flowing at the rate at which the top is falling. Look up the velocities of common demolitions explosives. You'll see that these are not explosions.

4) The "squibs" are ejected more energetically as the collapses proceed downward. Again, not an effect you'd see with explosives.

5) Building demolitons do not involve setting off random explosive charges here and there on random floors.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum?

1.) Canada

2.) Yes

3.) Yes. Banned once as Sword of Truth (for winning an argument with JDX), suspended and had posting ability removed as Captain Moroni (again, for winning an argument with JDX). Now banned as Cpt Moroni as well, deleting cookies to view the forum no longer works either.

[Ersby]

1. England.
2. No.
3. Yes.

[Gravy]

There's one thing I haven't seen adressed in all the silly claims LCers make and that is the stunt tricks the pilot would have to peform to make the attack at Pentagon. With a few hundred hours of Cessna flying (and thanx to good friends, some jetfighter/airbus simulator testdriving) I was adressing this on a swedish board where I sometimes debate LCers. Here's a translation of my post on the subject if anyone is interested:
The only responses I got to this post were links to articles where someone claim it would be impossible to spiral down bla bla bla...DUH!
Thanks for that analysis, Jocce. I suggest that to test this theory, we charter a 757 and fill it with Pentagon no-planers, with JohndoeX at the controls. The passengers will be perfectly safe, because, as JohndoeX knows, it's impossible to make a 757 turn, descend, and crash. The experiment would be done over the ocean, not over a city, of course.

[Gravy]

I have been perma-banned too. :D
Can you blame them for taking precautions? It's hard to believe that with all those sheep around, there aren't plenty of sheeple with internet access in New Zealand.
:sheep:

[Legalduck]

This was just posted over at the Onion

"New Oliver Stone 9/11 Film Introduces 'Single Plane' Theory"

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51367

It sound like it came right from loose change:D

[Belz...]

Well that explains it. I'm banned, too. Well technically I'm suspended until 2009, but we'll all be in the Halliburton camps by then, so I'm as good as banned.

edit: They also deleted the opposing views sticky from the skeptics forum. It's all going according to plan.

Don't these peolpe have an irony meter ?

[chacal]

This was just posted over at the Onion

"New Oliver Stone 9/11 Film Introduces 'Single Plane' Theory"

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51367

It sound like it came right from loose change:D


mm interesting, there might be something to this "magic plane theory"

[Belz...]

watch this video (linked in the LC Nuke thread) they show a small video artifact and claim that this is from the EMP, I am not kidding. The entire video is only 3-4 minutes long, it is a trailer for a larger movie coming out in September. I can not believe how much stupid these people can cram into 3 minutes. My favorite part is their "20 reasons why it was a WMD" this would be great comedy if it were not about such a serious matter.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3211807290597119388&q=wmd+at+the+wtc

edited to add link

"Sub 100-micron pulverisation of 99% of concrete in floors"

"20% of WTC dust is made up of metals in atomic sizes"

Where DO they get this data ?

[Belz...]

Don't count on hanging around too long if you try that. This was posted in the LC Lounge forum by administrator turturis:

Humm: "if you want to debate find another forum"

Yep, LC is for back-patting only. Find your OWN forum!

[Stellafane]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum?

1. USA (Vermont to be precise)
2. Yes
3. Yes

Are they just banning everyone they don't already know? I created an account two months ago, made one innocuous, non-skeptic post that bothered no one, then just let the account sit. Everything was fine until this AM, when I got the "not permitted" message.

I suppose it's possible they finally figured out my username was an anagram for "Dylan is nuts," but somehow I suspect something else is going on.

[WildCat]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum?
1. USA
2. No
3. Yes

The ban seems to be casting a wide net. Is it possible they banned all IP's that have come there from the JREF and other skeptic sites?

Oh well, I think this is a clear victory for us. We have basically shut down their little site for all practical purposes, as no one seems to be able to view it!

[60hzxtl]

Humm: "if you want to debate find another forum"

Yep, LC is for back-patting only. Find your OWN forum!

But, but, but the Cult Leader said this:

5.24.2006
Do something.
Ok, the vote is unanimous. Comments are gone permanently. If you really want somewhere to shoot your mouth off, again, that's what the forums are for. Go nuts.

If you guys really knew what went on behind the scenes 24-7, and if you actually took the time to meet us in person before drawing conclusions about us or our work, then your assinine websites and your "Viewer Guides" would drop off the radar pretty damn quick

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/05/do-something.html



I guess you can't organize anarchists for very long.



Oh well, I think this is a clear victory for us. We have basically shut down their little site for all practical purposes, as no one seems to be able to view it!


Could it be that the complaints about the moderation and IP posting were heard?

[EvilBiker]

In answer to Obviousman's survey:

1. South Africa
2. Yes.
3. Yes.

Badges all used up yet?

On the good side, my blood pressure should return to normal pretty soon.

[Belz...]

I guess they didn't like my comments about the Night of the Long Knives...

:rolleyes:

I have been perma-banned too.

:D

-Andrew

I don't get it. I can't see the board over there but I never posted on LC or even registered.

[gumboot]

This was just posted over at the Onion

"New Oliver Stone 9/11 Film Introduces 'Single Plane' Theory"

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51367

It sound like it came right from loose change:D


For some retarded reason I didn't click that it was the Onion... so as I read the beginning of the article I thought it was for real...:o

Well, I mean, you never can be sure with Oliver Stone...

-Andrew

[EvilBiker]

I don't get it. I can't see the board over there but I never posted on LC or even registered.

They're circling the wagons, and you're on the wrong side of the battlements, mate!

[Brainster]

It is the hypocritical nature of it that bothers me. I mean if the point of their site was purely for promotion of the movie, then why bother putting up the skeptics forum in the first place. Now they've made themselves look like fascists, when they didnt really have to.

You know how it is, they made a movie that seems to hold together if you squint just right and you're predisposed to believe what the director is telling you, and you don't have any inclination to follow up, you just want to indoctrinate others into the cult of Dylan.

I remember they invited James and me over to their forum back in May, full of brio and elan. And banned us after about 5 posts, none of which were abusive and all of which were substantive. Boom, we were gone.

They're running out of steam. Look at the number of people on the Forum. That's one thing they can't (or haven't figured out the need to) hide. They believe 9-11 is getting popular, but if you look at a graph of the membership list on their forum it's going up arithmetically, not geometrically, and it's even starting to slow in that respect.

[chran]

This might be an interesting survey.

1) What country do you reside in?

2) Have you ever been a member of the Loose Change Forum?

3) Do you find yourself currently banned there / unable to access (or view) the forum? 1) Denmark
2) No, but I've read them, following links from this forum
3) Yes

[brumsen]

In answer to Obviousman's survey:

1. Belgium
2. Yes.
3. Yes.

Now why should I have been banned?! I only ever made one post, a couple of months ago.:confused:

Looks more to me like the whole board was shut down.

[twinstead]

In answer to Obviousman's survey:

1. USA
2. NO, but lurked
3. Yes

[MikeW]

My survey response:

1) England
2) No
3) Yes

[chipmunk stew]

Looks more to me like the whole board was shut down.
Yeah, I think you're right. I've emailed to ask what's going on but haven't heard back yet (it was only about an hour ago).

forum@loosechange911.com
dylan@loosechange911.com
korey@loosechange911.com
jason@loosechange911.com

[chran]

The board is open to me again now. Don't know what's going on :confused:

[brumsen]

The board is open to me again now. Don't know what's going on :confused:
Same for me.

[Ersby]

Yep, back up for me too.

[chipmunk stew]

The board is open to me again now. Don't know what's going on :confused:

The whole board was down:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9965&view=findpost&p=6573960


Looks like we may have been hacked. All fixed now... enjoy...

(Although i noticed JREFers thought they were all banned...lol... who is the CTer now? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60976&page=23 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60976&page=23) )


http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/000110A/http/67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/laughing1.gif


http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/000110A/http/67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/cheers.gif

Well, John, as you know many of us were banned, so it was a reasonable suspicion.

[MarkyX]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7227410814379806181

Bill O'Reily.

[negativ]

Not banned (yet), but I did have my post asking whether they were a research community or a religion edited.

A little later, ChuckSeed has this to say:

The forum is under heavy moderation and preparation for the next level of truth now that the gates are wide open.

Has a sort of Heaven's Gate ring to it.

[Hutch]

Back in. This is getting really weird, even for LC...

Edited to add--I can see the board, but I am still suspended until 2009...

[Ersby]

Although i noticed JREFers thought they were all banned...lol... who is the CTer now?
Actually we took a survey to collect data to see the extent of the problem before we made any conclusions.

[negativ]

impertinant thought: Do the LCers really envision a future where they stand before the whole world, and just like in Scooby Doo cartoons, rip the rubber masks off of bin Laden and Zawahiri to reveal that it was really just Bush and Cheney the WHOLE TIME, whereupon Bush & Cheney will be led away in handcuffs muttering, "... and we would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those MEDDLING KIDS!"

Do they REALLY believe it's either that, or the Haliburton death camps that await us?

I wish I had some animation skills, because I could make an awesome Scooby Doo parody based on Dylan, Korey, & Friends.

[DavidJames]

JDX has locked the lounge thread about why the skeptics forum was shut down.

We will not tolerate views different from our own.
We will not tolerate discussion of why.
We are seeking the truth.
We are fighting the oppression brought on by the NWO, by banning those who disagree.

Makes sense :rolleyes:

anyone know what the medical term is for someone who lacks the "irony" gene?

[T.A.M.]

Just a note. The LC guys bombed the CNN poll yesterday next to Barrets Interview...

The poll:

Do you believe alternative theories for the September 11, 2001, attacks are credible?

Result so far 73% Yes, 27% No

I was reading a post on LC forum, and they were telling all their members to go vote.

I sent an email to CNN feedback letting them know what was going on....for what it is worth.

Having your opinion is one thing, but skewing poll results is criminal.

LC Forum skewing the vote (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9860)

Here is the vote page if you wish to show your pov (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/08/06/sept11.theories.ap/index.html)

[T.A.M.]

They are showing all the signs of an organization/group about to implode or self destruct.

[kookbreaker]

anyone know what the medical term is for someone who lacks the "irony" gene?

Irony-Impaired is what the International Irony Deficiency Agency likes to have it called, as opposed to the more cruel term: I-tard.

[DavidJames]

I'm so glad I can continue viewing loose change. I just saw a post in the LC Lounge reprinting a letter from two women in Amman.We would like to announce our resignation from Fox News in Amman. Although we never actually worked for your organization...As a sympathetic gesture I also announce my resignation from Fox News. I would also like to take this opportunity to resign from...

CNN
MSNBC
Al Jazeera
The Republican Party
The Democratic Party
The United States Army
Manchester United
The New World Order
The New York Yankees
The Fortune 500
The Indianapolis 500

More resignations will be forthcoming

I urge all of you to join me in support of those brave women...

[MarkyX]

They are showing all the signs of an organization/group about to implode or self destruct.

I'm interested as to what signs.

[c0rbin]

This quote, repeated often in the "Why close the Skeptics Forum..." thread at LC has a chillingly Orwellian tone:

"...preparation for the next level of truth..."

The Next level?? Is this the "Do-Over" mind set?

Anyway:

1) USA, Texas
2) Yes
3) Yes

[jhunter1163]

The "Truth" movement, IMO, is about to become a victim of their own "success". They've attracted just enough attention from MSM to get critically examined and shown publicly to be (rule8)tards. After the public crucifixion, they'll be shackled to the Stone of Everlasting Shame and sent back to whatever hole it is they crawled out of. I hope this happens soon.

[60hzxtl]

I would also like to take this opportunity to resign from...

CNN
MSNBC
Al Jazeera
The Republican Party
The Democratic Party
The United States Army
Manchester United
The New World Order
The New York Yankees
The Fortune 500
The Indianapolis 500

More resignations will be forthcoming

I urge all of you to join me in support of those brave women...

Don't forget the Mugwumps!

[Belz...]

The whole board was down:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9965&view=findpost&p=6573960



Well, John, as you know many of us were banned, so it was a reasonable suspicion.

Yeah, it's not like it was far-fetched!

[chacal]

Do they REALLY believe it's either that, or the Haliburton death camps that await us?



Oh sure, some do. It makes sense if you apply the three laws of conspiracy theory ... that I just made up:)


1. A conspiracy theory can never be proven wrong for any evidence against it only ads another layer to it.

2. Any actions against a conspiracy theory only add validity and credence to the theory.

3. The less evidence there is for the conspiracy theory, the stronger and bigger the conspiracy.


Feel free to add.

[T.A.M.]

Signs:

1. Closing doors to debate
2. Multiple spokepersons, contradicting each other
3. Groups within the main group refuting each other and not supporting each other (look at the no-planer group, not supporting the rest of the group)
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9948

For starters

[T.A.M.]

I suggest, that every body here, who believe sin honest polling (i know, i know), write an email to CNN feedback, telling them what is going on wrt the cyberbombing of that poll by the LC group.

[jhunter1163]

I'm resigning from:

The KKK
The John Birch Society
The Church of Scientology
NAMBLA
The Hitler Youth
The Sandinistas

Though I never belonged to any of those organizations...

(edit) TAM: Done.

(edit) Anyone think Dylan would be interested in a really elaborate tinfoil hat? (tricorn w/feather, like George Washington wore)

[Hellbound]

Irony-Impaired is what the International Irony Deficiency Agency likes to have it called, as opposed to the more cruel term: I-tard.

Actually, kook, this particular case appears to be more of an auto-ironophilic disorder, rather than an irony deficiency. Irony abounds, but seems to be self-directed and the sufferer oblivious.

[Darth Rotor]

Check who lost their license in the Hyatt Regency skywalk collapse in Kansas City. It wasn't the architect.
Good point.
Your assuming the design was done
No, I am not, don't put words into my mouth please
strictly to handle the impact of the aircraft and failing to take into account there may have been other, more likely events, that they did design for that made the building able to take a full on impact. It could very well be that:
(higher impact spec * safety factor) < (high wind load spec * safety factor
The wind loads they designed for were higher than needed. Although wind load is different than a (comparatively) point impact of a plane, beefing up the design for higher wind loads would also increase the ability of the building to absorb the impact of a plane. )
No question about the underlined part. It is a bit of a red herring to focus only on the impact load of X aircraft and X speed, since that is but ONE consideration of design, strength, method, and material.

But again, what do you mean by "higher than needed" here? Was the presumed wind load a Nor'Easter, a Cat II Hurricane with gusting wind (dynamic load shifting) or sustained wind? And then, per my above comment, what safety factor applied? Given the immense sail area of the WTC's two towers, the distributed load of a Cat II Hurricane, with gusting winds, is no small change (on a vertical cantilever) to design for . . . and then you choose a safety factor to apply. If you are asserting that the WTC was designed with a generous saftey factor, I'd have to agree, given the punishment they both took and basically remained standing until the structural members were weakened by thermal fatigue.

Kevin, I am far more familiar with aircraft design than building design, but the process of coming up with a sound final design is similar. The tradeoffs you make, the money you have, and the materials available, as well as the method of load distribution. Weight is of course immensely important with aircraft design and material selection, but COST is always a variable, and a factor that professionals in the field have to consider.

There is also the fine art of determing the point of diminishing returns in "adding this much better performance/strength/rigidity/what have you" and adding ______ cost to achieve that increase.
Furthermore, the wtc design was to transfer as little load to the core as possible, meaning the outer surface had to take much more load than a typical building, again beefing up that suppport system (and reducing the interior system, opening up more rentable space.)
Sounds like a smart design, for anyone with an eye on the budget, long term. :) The argument seems to be semantic, in part, and your use of the term "over designed." The method isn't the issue, the design spec and your assertion "that it was over designed" versus my estimation that desiging to an unrealistic base specification would not have made the cut in the bidding process.
Remember this building did take an impact from a 500 mph 767 and stay standing. The 3 page summary claimed it could take a 600 mph 707 strike and remain standing. I see no reason to doubt this.
We seem actually to be in violent agreement, except for a little bit of post hoc ergo prompter hoc on your part right there, and one small point of view differential.

You seem to be presuming a 600 mph spec, with no evidence that it was more than an issue raised. The base spec (for airborne hazards, and thus only one of many specs per your excellent point earlier on) and the applied safety factor, whereas I find it more likely to have been based on the airspeed of an airliner in the Terminal phase of a flight: approach and take off speeds. (Remember, this was going on in the 1960's, before the Hijacking to Cuba craze, and certainly before the Rag Heads began to hijack planes all over the Middle East in the 1970's)

I think we have beaten this horse to death, Kevin. Thanks for your insights, I have learned a bit in the process. :D That is a Good Thing(TM).

DR

[T.A.M.]

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/536/239/1600/cnnpollskew.jpg

Here are the latest results of the cyberbomb

[Brainster]

I suggest, that every body here, who believe sin honest polling (i know, i know), write an email to CNN feedback, telling them what is going on wrt the cyberbombing of that poll by the LC group.

I'm sure they know darn well what's going on. Those types of polls get hacked all the time, which is why they make sure to note that it's not scientific. Alex Jones whips out the Anderson Cooper "poll" that shows 90% of the public are CT nutjobs at every opportunity.

Remember, CNN is in the eyeballs business. And the cyberbombing brings eyeballs to their site.

[Brainster]

Unfortunately, the show's already over. I wasn't sure if we'd be discussing politics or 9-11 (this is a regular gig for me), but I was on for 10 minutes this morning with Allman and Smash in the Morning on 97.1 FM in St. Louis.

As it worked out they wanted to talk 9-11. They mentioned having seen the 9-11 Deniers Speak video, and specifically noted their anger at Dylan's claim that Bernard Brown sent his son to die. They also said that Dylan or one of the other Loosers was supposed to appear on their show but backed out. Combined with all the other stuff we've seen, it sounds to me like they're opting for the turtle strategy.

[CurtC]

anyone know what the medical term is for someone who lacks the "irony" gene?
How about "Irony-Poor Blood"?

"My CT - I think I'll keep him."

Aplologies if you're not old enough, or American enough, to get the reference.

[T.A.M.]

Irony Deficient Anemia

Trisomy 911

[Johnny Pixels]

I'm so glad I can continue viewing loose change. I just saw a post in the LC Lounge reprinting a letter from two women in Amman.As a sympathetic gesture I also announce my resignation from Fox News. I would also like to take this opportunity to resign from...

CNN
MSNBC
Al Jazeera
The Republican Party
The Democratic Party
The United States Army
Manchester United
The New World Order
The New York Yankees
The Fortune 500
The Indianapolis 500

More resignations will be forthcoming

I urge all of you to join me in support of those brave women...

Don't resign from the Indy 500, keep going til you get black flagged. That way you can rake up some more corporate sponsor money for all the extra time you're on TV, and use it to fund your shady activities. You shill. :p

[Legalduck]

anyone know what the medical term is for someone who lacks the "irony" gene?

Religious? :p

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So, which of their prescious video presentations is most important to tackle next?

[gumboot]

You seem to be presuming a 600 mph spec, with no evidence that it was more than an issue raised. The base spec (for airborne hazards, and thus only one of many specs per your excellent point earlier on) and the applied safety factor, whereas I find it more likely to have been based on the airspeed of an airliner in the Terminal phase of a flight:


Another thing to consider about this 600 MPH figure...

I have serious doubts about a 707 being capable of achieving 600MPH at such a low altitude.

With air that dense I suspect at that speed the amount of lift generated would rip the wings off.

-Andrew

[kevin]

But again, what do you mean by "higher than needed" here?


http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_wind_loads.htm

As reported today, the clarified original design wind load estimates all exceed those established by the New York City building code prior to 1968 (when the WTC towers were designed) and through 2001 (when the towers were destroyed). The values also are higher than those required by other selected building codes of the era, including the relevant national model building code.

a minimum cost design would've used the bare minimum wind loading as prescribed by code.

[kevin]

Another thing to consider about this 600 MPH figure...

I have serious doubts about a 707 being capable of achieving 600MPH at such a low altitude.

With air that dense I suspect at that speed the amount of lift generated would rip the wings off.

-Andrew

Such realities rarely enter into these types of "worst-case" analysis. They would most likely call up the manufacturer, ask for the loaded weight and the maximum speed (at any height) and the cross-sectional area. They would then use the maximums available to them in the analysis.

The NIST report indicates the existance of a document that summarizes the results of analysis done of the impact of a Boeing 707 flying at 600mph and that the building would survive. From the wording they use it indicates to me that they took their existing design and did a "what if" scenario. The building passed that scenario. This doesn't mean the building was designed to take such an impact, it means that what they did design for (live load/dead load, wind load, etc....) allowed it to take such an impact.

There is no indication of what they would've done had it failed this basic analysis. Would they have beefed up the design so it could take that impact? They didn't have to so we'll never know.

[Darth Rotor]

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_wind_loads.htm
a minimum cost design would've used the bare minimum wind loading as prescribed by code.
The the "bare minimum" isn't a criterion to establish "more than needed." Nor did I anywhere in my discussion imply a design assumption of "meets the minimum, and is therefore "good enough" in any of my remarks. You may have inferred that, and perhaps my prose wasn't lucid enough. To me, overdesign occurs in the region of marginal returns discussed a post or two previous of mine. There is often a bit of ground between "bare minimum" and "we are past the point of diminishig returns" which gets to the art of assessing and agreeing on the correct safety factor, design, etc. Thanks for the link, in any case. If the impact at 520 knots (a "point" dynamic load) comes out, after modeling and load distribution analysis, to be a lesser included case of the load distribution required for an assumed case of wind speed/gust/loading, (* safety factor) then it would not be a critical design criterion. Likewise an impact speed of 200-300 knots.

"More than the bare minimum" and "more than needed" are not equivalent terms. Again, we seem to have gotten into a quibble over semantics, and of course the relative importance of an architect. :cool:

DR

[MarkyX]

Unfortunately, the show's already over. I wasn't sure if we'd be discussing politics or 9-11 (this is a regular gig for me), but I was on for 10 minutes this morning with Allman and Smash in the Morning on 97.1 FM in St. Louis.

As it worked out they wanted to talk 9-11. They mentioned having seen the 9-11 Deniers Speak video, and specifically noted their anger at Dylan's claim that Bernard Brown sent his son to die. They also said that Dylan or one of the other Loosers was supposed to appear on their show but backed out. Combined with all the other stuff we've seen, it sounds to me like they're opting for the turtle strategy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/DuckandCover.jpg/250px-DuckandCover.jpg

EDIT: Anywhere where I can listen to these interviews? I'm glad my video is getting loads of exposure and I get all horny when 9/11 Deniers squirm. Unfortunately, it has destroyed my sex life :(

[CptColumbo]

Someone here posted a link to a video that shows the tower taking as long as 30 seconds to collapse. Rather than look through this whole thread, could you please repost it?

Thank you.

[Belz...]

Someone here posted a link to a video that shows the tower taking as long as 30 seconds to collapse. Rather than look through this whole thread, could you please repost it?

Thank you.

You've gotten lazy in your old age, mister Columbo. ;)

[kevin]

Someone here posted a link to a video that shows the tower taking as long as 30 seconds to collapse. Rather than look through this whole thread, could you please repost it?


I won't belittle your age and/or laziness.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=65460757734339444&q=9%2F11+eyewitness

it was in the other thread about "realistic explanations"

[rikzilla]

Daughter: "Daddy, what do you at work?"
JayRef: "Well sweetheart, one of this things I do is that I go onto these internet message boards. There are these people called 'Truthseekers'. I argue with them just for the sake of it."
Daughter: "Oh. Why do you do that, Dad?"
JayRef: "Well, it's actually fairly easy work, especially when you've irritated them. Sometimes they say to me that I have no conscience and that I don't care that the organisation I work for is responsible for the slaughter of thousands of people."
Daugther: What's a conscience Dad?
JayRef: I'm not really sure. I think it's got something to do with telling the truth, rather than pretending to tell the truth."
Daughter: "But isn't it naughty to pretend that you are telling the truth?"
JayRef: "Well, it depends. When a group of people look like they are going to expose a global criminal network, the people who run the organisation I work for start to get worried."
Daughter: "I don't really understand what you mean."
JayRef: "Well, I am afraid, that if I didn't lie to these truthseekers, you wouldn't be able to eat or have any toys or anything."
Daughter: "Oh!"
JayRef: "Yes - it's true."
Daughter: "....but Daddy, if you lie in your work, how do I know when you are telling me the truth?"
JayRef: "Because you are my daughter - I will always tell you the truth."
Daughter: "But Dad, if I was to go onto one of thost internet message boards, would you lie to me there?"
JayRef: "Ummm.... Errrr.... Of course not Sweetheart...."

The above strange and elaborate strawman is brought to you by The British wing of the TROOTHER Party (http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2980&start=15)

Making the mediocre feel better about themselves one fallacy at a time.

-z

[Johnny Pixels]

The above strange and elaborate strawman is brought to you by The British wing of the TROOTHER Party (http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2980&start=15)

Making the mediocre feel better about themselves one fallacy at a time.

-z

Oh I see, I've been wondering who...:D

[negativ]

I just put in for my ban over there with this:
9/11 truth is VIRAL.

And so is everything else on the internet. This is the reason we have Snopes.com, because as this site so readily proves, thousands of people are willing to believe anything they read on the internet.

Now, I know I'll get banned for saying this, because you guys tolerate even less dissent than Scientologists, and that's saying a lot.

Nevertheless, I will now write words that I fully expect you to remember for the rest of your lives.

I assure you that there will never, ever, ever come a time when anyone reading this is, in the words of one hysterical poster in this very thread, "waiting in line for your food ration at the concentration camp". No matter how much you might secretly long for this type of martyrdom, it will NEVER COME TO YOU.

I further assure you that there will never, ever, ever come a time -- contrary to your most cherished fantasies though it may be -- when you (collectively) stand before the world and, just like in the Scooby Doo cartoons, rip the rubber masks off bin Laden and Zawahiri only to discover that it was really just Bush and Cheney the WHOLE TIME, causing them to mutter as they are led away in handcuffs, "... and we'd have gotten away with it too, if not for those MEDDLING KIDS!!"

Finally, I will assure you that years down the road, you will be looked upon by the vast majority of the world as the kooks you are unable to recognize yourselves to be. That's right, you heard right: you will be mentioned in the same chapter as flat-earthers, witch burners, holocaust deniers, UFO abductees, and the Elvis-faked-his-death guys.

But that's OK. Especially in times like these, human sanity thrives on levity and cheap entertainment, and you guys provide it by the bushel, free of charge even. For that, if nothing else, you are to be commended.

It's not even all that great, but if that doesn't get me banned, nothing will.

[T.A.M.]

Daughter: Daddy, why do you never spend anytime with me?
Truther Daddy: Well because I am busy collecting evidence and heresay from laymen inorder to bring down the people who run our country.
Daughter: Why Daddy?
Truther Daddy: Because there is no REAL evidence to bring them down darling, so I have to get what I can, or fabricate it. Like that CNN poll I told you about. You know, the one Daddy and his friend went to over and over again to change the results.
Daughter: But isn't that dishonest Daddy?
Truther Daddy: Are you really my daughter, or are you a CIA plant?

:)

[Ramooone]

its funny how they're so anti-bush yet they follow his policies so well.

closing the skeptics forum, why not just say:
"if you're not with us you're against us"

[chipmunk stew]

Gravy, Dylan finally figured out who you are. Aren't you relieved? It must have been hell for you, not knowing.

"gravy" aka MarkyX aka Mark Iradian aka Mark Roberts aka ... you get the picture ... is now showing up at Ground Zero on a weekly basis and starting fights with NY9-11Truth, provoking the cops to clear the area.

there's alot more to discuss, but the fact is, this man is out to infiltrate and provocateur the movement. he is a 40-something balding man who should have a life and family of his own, and is instead spending his own time, energy and money into harassing key members and gatherings of the 9-11 movement.

concerned "Tour Guide" or professional trouble maker? who knows. i'm sure he's reading this right now thinking of a clever response to it. the best he'll do is bring up my Jack Blood interview again. which I've already explained and apologized for.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9992&view=findpost&p=6577801

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I am announcing my resignation from:

The Alberta Social Credit Party Board of Directors
The Canadian Conservative Reform Alliance Party (CCRAP, the media up here had a field day with that name)
The Debbie Gibson Fan Club
The Swedish Bikini Team (LC bastards told them I'm not swedish :p )
The 357th Black Helicopter Squadron