Loose Change - Part IV

[jhunter1163]

How do you model 4" rebar on 3-foot centers using graham crackers and gummi bears? I'd think Twizzlers would be the candy of choice for that purpose.

[realitybites]

How do you model 4" rebar on 3-foot centers using graham crackers and gummi bears?
Peanut butter icing.

[kookbreaker]

"The problem with this method of modeling is that I kept eating it."

[chipmunk stew]

Peanut butter icing.Don't forget to mix in some Pop Rocks for squibbing.

[jhunter1163]

So.. you'd throw a paper airplane into this structure with a ladyfinger firecracker on board to CONCLUSIVELY prove that the towers could not have been brought down by the explosion alone or by the action of the paper fire melting the Twizzlers. You need the Pop Rock squibs to set off the Sterno/thermite to cause the structure to fail. Sounds ironclad to me. Get Dylan Avery on the phone. Maybe this can make it into Loose Change, The Painful Circumcision Cut.

[60hzxtl]

Get Dylan Avery on the phone. Maybe this can make it into Loose Change, The Painful Circumcision Cut.

Does that mean there is no end to this. . . .oh never mind!

[chipmunk stew]

The Deniers are getting cocky about Killtown's avoidance of confrontation with Gravy over here.

Here's Ally from the British 9/11 Denial Campaign:
"Killtown kickin ass on JREF"--
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3216

And Killtown seems to believe he's got Gravy dead to rights:
"Bitch Slappin' Gravy!"--
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10633&view=findpost&p=6714713

Both threads carry an invitation to pay us a visit...*rubs hands together and licks chops greedily*

Is this like when Bush supporters claimed that he won his campaign debates because he didn't end up curled up on the ground sucking his thumb and whimpering?

[R.Mackey]

I'd say that Baghdad Bob is a more apt analogy.

Regardless, I'd like to see some honest debate for a change. They're all welcome here.

[juryjone]

How do you model 4" rebar on 3-foot centers using graham crackers and gummi bears? I'd think Twizzlers would be the candy of choice for that purpose.
It's 3" rebar on 4' centers. I think if you change your calculations accordingly you will find that Twizzlers are totally inadequate for these structural purposes. I prefer Pixy sticks myself.

[chipmunk stew]

I'd say that Baghdad Bob is a more apt analogy.
Heh. Yeah, that's a much better fit:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/baghdad_bob.jpg

[realitybites]

It's 3" rebar on 4' centers. I think if you change your calculations accordingly you will find that Twizzlers are totally inadequate for these structural purposes. I prefer Pixy sticks myself.
Well that changes the structural dynamic immensely. Peanut butter icing would obviously not suffice.

Instead, use dollops of CoolWhip Lite. It's a good thing.

[kookbreaker]

Looks like we got another guy using the scientific method (http://www.freewebs.com/democraatus/page04.htm) to model the collapses.

I've been burned on this stuff before (see the Hufschmid video the other day for example), so I'm not going to automatically believe this is serious. But if you check his earlier posts (http://www.freewebs.com/democraatus/page01.htm), it looks like Spooked 911 may have met his match.

Paper columns? The cheapskate could have at least splurged for an old set of one of these:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/GPSearsTowerSet.jpg

[defaultdotxbe]

Paper columns? The cheapskate could have at least splurged for an old set of one of these:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/GPSearsTowerSet.jpg

hey, thats the sears tower! i want one!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/defaultdotxbe/IMG_0020.jpg
i made that out of backup tapes at work

[kookbreaker]

hey, thats the sears tower! i want one!


We all do!

i made that out of backup tapes at work

Slow day at work?

[T.A.M.]

Gravy;

you will be "pleased to know" that Shaittown...I mean Killtown, is over at LC Forum posting on a thread he has labeled as "bitch Slappin Gravy". In it he leaves the impression that he has been kicking your ass over here. He also claims you can get banned within 5 minutes for mentioning the "consipracy of Silence" article/video.

Not surprising, just annoying...

[Pardalis]

hey, thats the sears tower! i want one!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/defaultdotxbe/IMG_0020.jpg
i made that out of backup tapes at work

Is that your porn collection? :D

[CurtC]

i made that out of backup tapes at work
Drop a heavy bucket on it and see what it does!

[60hzxtl]

Drop a heavy bucket on it and see what it does!

See: entropy

Tapes topple over. . .


(What's that one third from the bottom, 'Blondie Pays the Rent'.????)

[Dog Town]

The more I see of the "Contradictory Theorists", and see their" Beliefs" picked apart! The more I think, we are watching the worlds longest slow mo version, of a Jenga Game!

DT

[mrfreeze]

Gravy;

you will be "pleased to know" that Shaittown...I mean Killtown, is over at LC Forum posting on a thread he has labeled as "bitch Slappin Gravy". In it he leaves the impression that he has been kicking your ass over here. He also claims you can get banned within 5 minutes for mentioning the "consipracy of Silence" article/video.

Not surprising, just annoying...

Really? I seem to remember starting a thread about that very video after not finding any decent info on it, and I'm still here. Go figure.

[T.A.M.]

Well, as I said, Killtown is claiming it.

[Johnny Pixels]

Gravy;

you will be "pleased to know" that Shaittown...I mean Killtown, is over at LC Forum posting on a thread he has labeled as "bitch Slappin Gravy". In it he leaves the impression that he has been kicking your ass over here. He also claims you can get banned within 5 minutes for mentioning the "consipracy of Silence" article/video.

Not surprising, just annoying...

So, about thus "conspiracy of silence video"...

What? Pack my bags? I'm what? Banned?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So, about thus "conspiracy of silence video"...

What? Pack my bags? I'm what? Banned?

The wiki article indicates it was a documentary produced for The Discovery Channel and subsequently failed to air. Those of a CT inclination claim it was due to outside pressures wanting to keep the story under wraps. Personally, I think it was because someone clued Discovery to the fact that by the time it was going to air (May 3, 1994), it had already been thrown out of court as a hoax (July 23, 1990)

[T.A.M.]

Here is a good one...The latest over at LC, via team8plus, is that there were "doubles" of Atta and Al-Shehri. Take a look at the nonsense they are promoting as a "Great find".

Team8Plus Doubles of Hijackers bunk (http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3637.last)

[Dog Town]

Here is a good one...The latest over at LC, via team8plus, is that there were "doubles" of Atta and Al-Shehri. Take a look at the nonsense they are promoting as a "Great find".




Would John Dohh 2 , be the said pilot*snicker* from LC?

[Stellafane]

Here is a good one...The latest over at LC, via team8plus, is that there were "doubles" of Atta and Al-Shehri. Take a look at the nonsense they are promoting as a "Great find".

Team8Plus Doubles of Hijackers bunk (http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3637.last)

Hey, why stop at doubles? Why not triples? Quadruples? Whole groups of them -- a flock, a herd, a gaggle? (What exactly would you call a collection of terrorists? I'd suggest a "murder" if the word wasn't already co-opted by crows.)

It must be fun to live in a world unencumbered by reality.

[Stellafane]

Gravy;

you will be "pleased to know" that Shaittown...I mean Killtown, is over at LC Forum posting on a thread he has labeled as "bitch Slappin Gravy". In it he leaves the impression that he has been kicking your ass over here. He also claims you can get banned within 5 minutes for mentioning the "consipracy of Silence" article/video.

Not surprising, just annoying...

Really? I didn't know "bitch slapping" was CT jargon for running away like a squirrel with its tail on fire when (per Killtown's own invitation) Gravy starts a thread to ask Killtown questions. The only slapping I hear is of Killtown's terrified feet slapping the pavement as he flees as fast as he can from having to face Gravy. Then again, such cowardice has a long legacy at LC -- a DJLegacy to be precise.

[mrfreeze]

Really? I didn't know "bitch slapping" was CT jargon for running away like a squirrel with its tail on fire when (per Killtown's own invitation) Gravy starts a thread to ask Killtown questions. The only slapping I hear is of Killtown's terrified feet slapping the pavement as he flees as fast as he can from having to face Gravy. Then again, such cowardice has a long legacy at LC -- a DJLegacy to be precise.

Oh come on. Legacy's cousin said he was coming back! He must have just gotten detained and locked up in a FEMA prison camp before he could get here and BLOW THE LID OFF of Gravy's lies. You shill.

[Brainster]

Hey, why stop at doubles? Why not triples? Quadruples? Whole groups of them -- a flock, a herd, a gaggle? (What exactly would you call a collection of terrorists? I'd suggest a "murder" if the word wasn't already co-opted by crows.)

It must be fun to live in a world unencumbered by reality.

Obvious question here: What were the doubles used for? Were they the ones who actually hijacked the planes and flew them into the buildings? That's going to make for some massive amendments to Loose Change.

Of course, the answer is (as usual) that the Deniers don't really have any rational reason for the doubles, it's just something that they can say is "very suspicious" (followed by the headshaking emoticon).

[Stellafane]

Oh come on. Legacy's cousin said he was coming back! He must have just gotten detained and locked up in a FEMA prison camp before he could get here and BLOW THE LID OFF of Gravy's lies. You shill.

You gotta admit, that whole thing was good for a lot of laughs (his cousin??. How the dude ever summoned the nads to even use a computer again after being so thermonuclearly humiliated escapes me.

[Stellafane]

Obvious question here: What were the doubles used for? Were they the ones who actually hijacked the planes and flew them into the buildings? That's going to make for some massive amendments to Loose Change.

Of course, the answer is (as usual) that the Deniers don't really have any rational reason for the doubles, it's just something that they can say is "very suspicious" (followed by the headshaking emoticon).

Come on, it's obvious: they can just use the same hijackers to pilot planes that don't run into buildings that they're going to blow up with Thermite. I'm sure no one will notice when they run Atta's picture again and blame him for yet another terrorist act. You know the old saying -- a terrorist in the hand is worth two for GW Bush...

[mrfreeze]

So now it seems that V for Vendetta is the movie that is going to blow the lid off the conspiracy. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10597
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10672

I don't have the heart to tell them that the Wachowski's changed the film to be a not so subtle anti-bush piece on purpose, and that's why Moore wanted his name off of it.

[Class]

So now it seems that V for Vendetta is the movie that is going to blow the lid off the conspiracy. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10597
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10672

I don't have the heart to tell them that the Wachowski's changed the film to be a not so subtle anti-bush piece on purpose, and that's why Moore wanted his name off of it.

Didn't you know that V for Vendetta was a documentary? Same with The Matrix, A Scanner Darkly, and Oliver Stone's JFK.

[Dog Town]

I don't have the heart to tell them that the Wachowski's changed the film to be a not so subtle anti-bush piece on purpose, and that's why Moore wanted his name off of it.

Nope, that will just fit nicely into their little fictional contradiction!
They could only give us clues! V is one big clue! Yeah..... Wach Bros(incert the WOOOOO wave here)!

DT

[gumboot]

That paper tower experiment would be perfect if the WTC had ten floors, each 41 metres high, held up by giant hollow round columns 41 metres long and 8 metres wide, made of rubber.

Almost like reality...

-Andrew

[MarkyX]

Didn't you know that V for Vendetta was a documentary? Same with The Matrix, A Scanner Darkly, and Oliver Stone's JFK.

Do not get me started with V for Vendetta.

Could've been a really great film, but since the idiots behind the Matrix were part of it, all I seen was a bunch of unrealistic dialogue with a guy under a mask trying to sound intelligent and poetic.

They could've justs stuck with the original comic. Example: He calls himself V because he has no name. That's it, no "Vengeance" or long list of words.

It was a movie for the anti-bush crowd to masturbate too, nothing more. Every scene was based on bashing Bush instead of bringing something reasonable to the table. As one writer to the next, I say the W brothers are overrated and its thanks to morons like them who hijacked the concept of art and made it into a political soapbox. But hey, it's freaking hollywood. When was the last time they had a good movie that made people think?

[SRW]

re-rail


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10256&st=30

pg two is the capper!

See it before it disappears, gets revised, recut, done over, edited, revamped. amended, changed, or even, loosely changed!


Sundance is his new priority. (unless the chemtrails take him out first. . . )

But I'm not out to make money. . .

Theatrical release next - come pay to see what you've seen for free!

Is this gone or do I just need to use my super powers to see it?

[mrfreeze]

Holy hell. Does this qualify them for cult status yet?

Class, MSM, here a few points regarding our behaviour on this forum.

An excerpt from Tips for Building a Truth Movement
#8
Treat all those who are constantly negative, always attacking LTW, Loose Change and other truthers, as spooks or shills. Report them. Avoid playing into their hands by engaging with them.

#10
Always remember that the stakes are very, very high for those in power. They will do whatever they can to get you to go back to sleep. Infiltrating forums is the very least that they will do. So stay focused on spreading truth and be not dismayed by what you see on this forum.

#11
Constructive criticism is a thinly veiled attack. Comments such as "I'm only telling you this <for your own good/the good of the truth movement/etc> belong to the shills. Don't do it. Dylan Avery knows how to conduct himself. Support him. Full stop.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9599&view=findpost&p=6725749

Do not ever question the leader! Anyone who says we got something wrong is a tool of the government! They fear the truth!

[Regnad Kcin]

Looks very close to cultish to me. But then it has for some time.

[hellaeon]

is that experiement for real

this is a joke and I dont get it right?

[WildCat]

is that experiement for real

this is a joke and I dont get it right?
I can't get his last page to load, so I don't know. :confused:

[T.A.M.]

D.A. and his crew are so much about the fame and money, and not about the movement.

Right now, he embraces the movement, because it is the vast majority of his admirers and fan base. Let me tell you, if through some lightning strike, he becomes famous in the Hollywood set, you watch how quickly he dumps the CT Truth group, and moves on to make real movies...

[SRW]

I can't get his last page to load, so I don't know. :confused:
No punch line so I don't think the guy knows he is a loon. I does show conclusively that building skyscrapers out of paper is foolish, and are no protection against cement filled buckets.

I wonder what it's like to live in such a world where things like this are possible. Something like paranoid schizophrenia land? Ted Kizinsky<sp> world?

[MarkyX]

D.A. and his crew are so much about the fame and money, and not about the movement.

Right now, he embraces the movement, because it is the vast majority of his admirers and fan base. Let me tell you, if through some lightning strike, he becomes famous in the Hollywood set, you watch how quickly he dumps the CT Truth group, and moves on to make real movies...

Trust me, no one is going to touch this kid with a ten foot pole. It would have to be a studio very desperate (considering how the industry is slowing dying off, that's his chance)..

The fact that there is so much information out there debunking his facts and he has demostrated on more then one occassion that he doesn't even have basic research skills, I would be really shocked if someone actually picked him up. He doesn't have the editing skills of Michael Moore to BS his way.

[tsig]

Looks very close to cultish to me. But then it has for some time.

Seems to me the deniers must be paid shills of the Terrorists. What has Al-Queda paid dylan avery to spread these lies?

Only asking questions.

Propoganda Ninja. lol

[Class]

D.A. and his crew are so much about the fame and money, and not about the movement.

Right now, he embraces the movement, because it is the vast majority of his admirers and fan base. Let me tell you, if through some lightning strike, he becomes famous in the Hollywood set, you watch how quickly he dumps the CT Truth group, and moves on to make real movies...

Any attempt to ask Dylan Avery who offered him a seven figure contract in a particular thread is met with hostility by a poster named Daniels (same lunatic mentioned in mrfreeze's post) who is on the verge of guzzling the whole jar of Kool-Aid. I'm going to ask Dylan in a PM now because seeing Daniels express his level of devotion is downright scary.

[Brainster]

Seems to me the deniers must be paid shills of the Terrorists. What has Al-Queda paid dylan avery to spread these lies?

Only asking questions.

Propoganda Ninja. lol

There exists the very real possibility that they may at some time get paid by wealthy Saudis/other Arabs. Remember that Scott Ritter's documentary (Shifting Sands) was paid for by allocations of Saddam's oil money under Oil for Food; as far as I know without Ritter's knowledge.

Similarly, the Loosers may not even know it--if a Saudi investor comes along and offers money to a studio to finance a certain picture's release? Or if they get an order for 50,000 DVDs at the individual price.

There was a History Channel show yesterday on Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories, and one of the historians interviewed noted that the effect of Pearl Harbor CTs is to diminish the blame towards the Japanese, and shift some of it to FDR. Are there any people who might like to diminish or eliminate the blame towards Muslims/Arabs/Islamofascists for 9-11?

[Gravy]

Looks like we got another guy using the scientific method (http://www.freewebs.com/democraatus/page04.htm) to model the collapses.
That is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Even funnier is that he points out his "audience" in one photo.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e2c61b5fe31.jpg


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e2c61b8eff4.jpg

Even funnier than that:

Well, we may wish to draw some conclusions from the experiment.

First of all, no measurable resistance was given by the structure. The heavy weight fell to the ground as fast as in free fall.

Second, the tower did manage to divert the bucket's direction. The bucket started to tilt and was diverted from the structure to fall down almost next to it.

http://www.freewebs.com/democraatus/page06.htm

[Regnad Kcin]

Whoa! Give that man a PhD, quickly!

[gumboot]

That is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Even funnier is that he points out his "audience" in one photo.
Even funnier than that:


Did anyone else notice how the top two floors of the building bounced back up after the bucket had been past?

I don't think the WTC was going to do that.

Laughs aside, I'd actually be very curious to see someone make an accurate scale model of the WTC as per design specs out of a relevant material, and do some tests.

(Not that I'd expect such a test to necessarily reflect the larger model, but it would be interesting).

So what I mean is, for example, a stucture with a certain degree of brittle-ness in the material. A structure that can "Sag" under heat (some sort of plastic maybe?). A structure with join points that accurately reflect the relative strength of the action join points (none of this using wide sticky tape on a paper structure!).

-Andrew

[Belz...]

hey, thats the sears tower! i want one!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/defaultdotxbe/IMG_0020.jpg
i made that out of backup tapes at work

That's a lot of gigabytes...

[Belz...]

It was a movie for the anti-bush crowd to masturbate too, nothing more. Every scene was based on bashing Bush instead of bringing something reasonable to the table. As one writer to the next, I say the W brothers are overrated

Don't get me started on the SECOND matrix movie...

But hey, it's freaking hollywood. When was the last time they had a good movie that made people think?

Hey, hey, now. Don't bash the movie business. Entertainment first. If you want to think, read the skeptical enquirer.

[Belz...]

Holy hell. Does this qualify them for cult status yet?


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9599&view=findpost&p=6725749

Do not ever question the leader! Anyone who says we got something wrong is a tool of the government! They fear the truth!

:jaw-dropp

Reminds me of the movie "they live". Putting you back to sleep... right... :rolleyes:

[Belz...]

That is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Even funnier is that he points out his "audience" in one photo.

Hilarious. Look at their faces.

KID: "What's daddy doing, mom ?"
MOM: "D... don't ask, sweety... don't ask!"

Of course, christophera could spot the concrete in their teeth if he were here.

[60hzxtl]

Holy hell. Does this qualify them for cult status yet?


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9599&view=findpost&p=6725749

Do not ever question the leader! Anyone who says we got something wrong is a tool of the government! They fear the truth!


It would be almost funny - particularly when they use this line:

Tips for Building a Truth Movement



:seroflmao:

[MarkyX]

Hhahahahahahah

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/150806watchedvids.htm

The london terrorists apparently watched Loose Change and other videos.

So when will Dylan and Alex be arrested for working with the enemy? :D

[60hzxtl]

Hhahahahahahah

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/150806watchedvids.htm

The london terrorists apparently watched Loose Change and other videos.

So when will Dylan and Alex be arrested for working with the enemy? :D

As Do-Over_Dylan says, its been watched by millions!

Osama's Alibi Dylan Avery!

[brodski]

The london terrorists apparently watched Loose Change and other videos.

After watching LC did the London bombers begin to doubt their own existence?
Or did they start hanging round St James' park hoping to collect payment from a man in a bowler hat feeding the ducks?

[Kent1]

Warning some of these are very disturbing!


NYC Releases More Sept. 11 Calls
List Includes 10 Unreleased 911 Messages From World Trade Center

(AP) NEW YORK The city is releasing more than 1,600 previously undisclosed Sept. 11 emergency calls - several by rescuers who later were killed - after fire department officials said they discovered hundreds of internal dispatches of firefighters who went to rescue people from the burning World Trade Center.

The 1,613 calls being made public Wednesday also include 10 previously unreleased 911 calls made by people trapped in the twin towers, although those calls will include only the voices of the operators who heard their pleas.


http://wcbstv.com/national/topstories_story_228010652.html

[NDBoston]

Christopher Bollyn of American Free Press claims to have been beaten by the police and now wants political asylum in Norway or Switzerland. I only wish this was true.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=91920

[CurtC]

"... by the ADL-trained local police."

Does Bollyn mean the Anti-Defamation League? Man, is that guy nutso.

[tacodaemon]

Looks like Popular Mechanics just started up a 9/11 myths blog (http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog/911mythsblog) to accompany/promote the new book.

You sure have to scroll down a bit to get to the actual blog part of the page though.

[Class]

It would be almost funny - particularly when they use this line:

Tips for Building a Truth Movement



:seroflmao:

That thread got my account deleted.:(

[Kent1]

That thread got my account deleted.:(
This is real?:eek:
#11
Constructive criticism is a thinly veiled attack. Comments such as "I'm only telling you this <for your own good/the good of the truth movement/etc> belong to the shills. Don't do it. Dylan Avery knows how to conduct himself. Support him. Full stop.

[Dog Town]

This is real?:eek:
#11
Constructive criticism is a thinly veiled attack. Comments such as "I'm only telling you this <for your own good/the good of the truth movement/etc> belong to the shills. Don't do it. Dylan Avery knows how to conduct himself. Support him. Full stop.

Would love ta see the rest of that list! Anyone? Me no LC avail! Banned!

DT

[mrfreeze]

Well it seems Thomas Keane from the 9/11 comission will be on The Daily Show tonight, and the CTers are all spooging themselves with the hope that Jon Stewart will finally show his support for their cause and rip him a new one. It's 5:22 here right now, and the show airs at 11. My guess is that by 11:30 Jon Stewart will be getting cursed as a traitor and a shill. Either that or "He wanted to expose the troof, but his evil producers were told to not let him by the gubmint.

[CurtC]

Kean was also the guest on Fresh Air today. I heard the teaser for it on my drive to work, but didn't get to listen. Yet. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5657369)

I don't get whatever channel The Daily Show is on, so please report back!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Kean was also the guest on Fresh Air today. I heard the teaser for it on my drive to work, but didn't get to listen. Yet. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5657369)

I don't get whatever channel The Daily Show is on, so please report back!

Was that the interview with the author of Looming Tower: The Road to 9/11?

[60hzxtl]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10556&st=60


Per Merc:

QUOTE (kikapurider @ Aug 16 2006, 06:10 PM)
So on a hot day in Southern California, what's the temperature at 30,000 feet altitude?


Not cold enough to freeze water vapor and suspend it in mid air, while it descends and spreads leaving **** all over our cars, my friend.


Ha ha ha ha! Better bring your long johns to 30 Grand my friend! It's gonna be chilly!

[Brainster]

Here's a post by a guy suggesting that LCFC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9310) have more information about the Pakistani intelligence service.

ISI used as a proxy to fund the hijackers and control them, Gen Mahmoud Ahmad ordering Omar Shaeik Saed to wire Atta $100,000 thru Standard Chartered Bank(housed in WTC7), the Randy Glass recordings of CIA assets meeting with Pakistani ISI officials and arms dealers in 1999 discussing the 9/11 plans("those towers are going to come down"), Omar Saaed 's links to the ISI and CIA, KSM being a known ISI asset, the real reason Daniel Pearl was killed(linking ISI to al Qaeda and 9/11) the Porter Goss connection, etc.

There's a lot of "yeah, that rocks" in the replies. Of course, there is one little problem with including this stuff.

What hijackers? Loose Change posits that the hijackings never happened. So even if (and I doubt it strongly) the head of the ISI wired $100,000 to Atta, as is alleged, how do you tie it into 9-11 without acknowledging the hijackers?

Or are we going to get a truly massive "do-over" on this?

[MarkyX]

Let's not forgot this stupid theory is by AN ANONYMOUS SOURCE.

There is no confirmation whatsoever.

[Johnny Pixels]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10556&st=60


Per Merc:

QUOTE (kikapurider @ Aug 16 2006, 06:10 PM)
So on a hot day in Southern California, what's the temperature at 30,000 feet altitude?


Not cold enough to freeze water vapor and suspend it in mid air, while it descends and spreads leaving **** all over our cars, my friend.


Ha ha ha ha! Better bring your long johns to 30 Grand my friend! It's gonna be chilly!

Duh, it must be hot up there, or the Space Shuttle wouldn't need heat shields to re-enter the atmosphere :p

[WildCat]

:jaw-dropp

Reminds me of the movie "they live". Putting you back to sleep... right... :rolleyes:
Put on the glasses!!! :D

BTW, the fight in the South Park "Cripple Fight" episode was based on that. Put on the hat, Timmy...

[WildCat]

Duh, it must be hot up there, or the Space Shuttle wouldn't need heat shields to re-enter the atmosphere :p
All that snow on top of Kilimanjaro is just part of the psy-ops campaign. It's really made of soap flakes, because it is really 80 degrees up there. Because it's just a few degrees south of the equator... right?

Man the troothers are a stupid bunch... :boggled:

[Johnny Pixels]

All that snow on top of Kilimanjaro is just part of the psy-ops campaign. It's really made of soap flakes, because it is really 80 degrees up there. Because it's just a few degrees south of the equator... right?

Man the troothers are a stupid bunch... :boggled:

That's Chemtrail residue on them thar hills!

[negativ]

I don't know if I'm banned or what.

I posted a thread in the LC forum lounge compairing - in a rather hasty and shoddy manner, I admit - the "Truth Movement" to a destructive doomsday cult as described by the people at religioustolerance.org.

The usual suspects told me I Just Couldn't Handle The Truth<tm>, and one guy even called me "a shill" (I guess that means I'm paid by The Eeeevil Neo-Con Patrio-Psychotic Anarcho-Materialist NWO Media TheoCretins who REALLY planned and carried out 9/11) and implied that once The Truth<tm> came out, I would be among the first to face the firing squads, Mussolini-style. I guess.

However, my infamy was short-lived. After spending most of the day out and about tending to various errands in computer-free zones (read: planting evidence in various False-Flag Operations I'm not allowed to talk about, but which some 20 year old kid will find by using Google) I came back to find that I was no longer able to post in my thread. I didn't get any msgs about being banned, or suspended, or whatever. Just can't post.

It doesn't seem to be locked, either. Oh well.

If anyone cares for some short-duration amusement, the thread is here. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10734)

[Johnny Pixels]

I don't know if I'm banned or what.

I posted a thread in the LC forum lounge compairing - in a rather hasty and shoddy manner, I admit - the "Truth Movement" to a destructive doomsday cult as described by the people at religioustolerance.org.

The usual suspects told me I Just Couldn't Handle The Truth<tm>, and one guy even called me "a shill" (I guess that means I'm paid by The Eeeevil Neo-Con Patrio-Psychotic Anarcho-Materialist NWO Media TheoCretins who REALLY planned and carried out 9/11) and implied that once The Truth<tm> came out, I would be among the first to face the firing squads, Mussolini-style. I guess.

However, my infamy was short-lived. After spending most of the day out and about tending to various errands in computer-free zones (read: planting evidence in various False-Flag Operations I'm not allowed to talk about, but which some 20 year old kid will find by using Google) I came back to find that I was no longer able to post in my thread. I didn't get any msgs about being banned, or suspended, or whatever. Just can't post.

It doesn't seem to be locked, either. Oh well.

If anyone cares for some short-duration amusement, the thread is here. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10734)

I got that. My posting permissions have been removed, and have been for several weeks. No great loss though. It cuts down on my stress level if I don't post there.

[mrfreeze]

Why doesn't everyone pull out of there and just watch them crumble as they have no one left to fight with but themselves?

[defaultdotxbe]

Why doesn't everyone pull out of there and just watch them crumble as they have no one left to fight with but themselves?

we did for the most part, thats what brought killtown and crew over here and that gypsy to my forum

[tsig]

There exists the very real possibility that they may at some time get paid by wealthy Saudis/other Arabs. Remember that Scott Ritter's documentary (Shifting Sands) was paid for by allocations of Saddam's oil money under Oil for Food; as far as I know without Ritter's knowledge.

Similarly, the Loosers may not even know it--if a Saudi investor comes along and offers money to a studio to finance a certain picture's release? Or if they get an order for 50,000 DVDs at the individual price.

There was a History Channel show yesterday on Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories, and one of the historians interviewed noted that the effect of Pearl Harbor CTs is to diminish the blame towards the Japanese, and shift some of it to FDR. Are there any people who might like to diminish or eliminate the blame towards Muslims/Arabs/Islamofascists for 9-11?


I really was'nt saying that they sleep with thier pigs, just that we make them deny it.

Accusing others of being shills is so common on LC I thought we could use the same tactic.

[Dog Town]

From TrueAmerican @ATS
Speaking for myself now, from what I have seen come and go on letsroll911.org, I would say that one of the latest overall conclusions I have arrived at about the jets striking the towers is that there had to be preplanted explosives in the building, not only to take the towers down, but, well also to assist the entry of the planes into the building. I believe that we have actual proof of this, but if I said any more about what we believe may be the truth, I could end up spoiling a certain new video coming out about it, so I won't!
One more
Besides, I've actually got a video that shows the missile in air prior to impact. You will find out soon enough.


Could this be part of LCFC The Final Insult?

DT

[MarkyX]

Why doesn't everyone pull out of there and just watch them crumble as they have no one left to fight with but themselves?

Duuude.

Shh, don't let our secret it. We didn't "pull" anything, got it? :boggled:

[Darth Rotor]

QUOTE (kikapurider @ Aug 16 2006, 06:10 PM)
So on a hot day in Southern California, what's the temperature at 30,000 feet altitude?
Not cold enough to freeze water vapor and suspend it in mid air, while it descends and spreads leaving **** all over our cars, my friend.
On a standard day, add +15 deg Celsius for surface temp in LA at the beach (Sea Level) to let T(LA) = 30 deg Celsius. Assume the adiabatic lapse rate ( -2 deg C per 1000')

That puts the temp a -60 + 30 = -30 degrees C.

Cold enough to freeze beer, or to make a Canadian put on a sweater. :D

DR

[TjW]

On a standard day, add +15 deg Celsius for surface temp in LA at the beach (Sea Level) to let T(LA) = 30 deg Celsius. Assume the adiabatic lapse rate ( -2 deg C per 1000')

That puts the temp a -60 + 30 = -30 degrees C.

Cold enough to freeze beer, or to make a Canadian put on a sweater. :D

DR
Or if you're lazy like I am, you can go to:http://www-frd.fsl.noaa.gov/mab/soundings/java/plot_soundings.cgi?airport=riv&start=latest&n_hrs=3.0&startSecs=1013277600&endSecs=1013288400&data_source=MAPS

and find out what the temp is at most altitudes up to about 45000 feet.
Today, over Riverside at 30000 feet, it was 11F, plenty cold enough to freeze water.
One day in 1987, it was 103 F on the ground, and 12000 feet higher I had ice crystals sticking to my harness.

[60hzxtl]

One day in 1987, it was 103 F on the ground, and 12000 feet higher I had ice crystals sticking to my harness.


Under canopy or in freefall? - (you know the real kind!)

[CurtC]

One day in 1990, it was about 95 on the ground, and 9000 feet higher it was cold. Don't know exactly how cold, but I remember the wind rushing against my face caused tears to pool up in my goggles and make it hard to see.

About 40 seconds later was when my C2 vertebra got broken.

[Earl The Tall]

One day in 1990, it was about 95 on the ground, and 9000 feet higher it was cold. Don't know exactly how cold, but I remember the wind rushing against my face caused tears to pool up in my goggles and make it hard to see.

About 40 seconds later was when my C2 vertebra got broken.

Ouch.

[CurtC]

Christopher Bollyn of American Free Press claims to have been beaten by the police and now wants political asylum in Norway or Switzerland. I only wish this was true.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=91920

Here is the arrest report. (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2725/bollyn1nk2.jpg)

[kookbreaker]

Here is the arrest report. (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2725/bollyn1nk2.jpg)

Its got a William Cooper feel to it, don't it?

[Belz...]

Cold enough to freeze beer, or to make a Canadian put on a sweater. :D

DR

Barely.

[smother]

Hey there - I have been following this forum since watching Loose Change for the first time. I have actually read about 50% of the posts regarding Loose Change. You sure have been busy bees :)

I have come to the realization that maybe Dylan, Jason and Korey are actually just salesmen. They know the value of a neat looking website, a spooky "documentary" and the power of belief. You can sell anything to a "truth seeker" - a true believer is like a sheep following the shepherd.

Did you know that they've sold more than 100.000 copies of their DVD? And who knows how many T-shirts, bumper stickers and posters?

Maybe they are just pulling our legs. No question they have effectfully cornered the market for conspiracty theories. They have all the buzz right now and a huge "herd" of gullible males between 15 and 25. Why not prey on them?

[pgwenthold]

Well it seems Thomas Keane from the 9/11 comission will be on The Daily Show tonight, and the CTers are all spooging themselves with the hope that Jon Stewart will finally show his support for their cause and rip him a new one. It's 5:22 here right now, and the show airs at 11. My guess is that by 11:30 Jon Stewart will be getting cursed as a traitor and a shill. Either that or "He wanted to expose the troof, but his evil producers were told to not let him by the gubmint.

So what has been the response?

(in case you missed, the idea of a CT never even came up; nothing Stewart said during the show would make anyone think he even entertains the possibility of a CT. I'm guessing their response: he used to work for Keane and is therefore a lackey)

[Class]

Hey there - I have been following this forum since watching Loose Change for the first time. I have actually read about 50% of the posts regarding Loose Change. You sure have been busy bees :)

I have come to the realization that maybe Dylan, Jason and Korey are actually just salesmen. They know the value of a neat looking website, a spooky "documentary" and the power of belief. You can sell anything to a "truth seeker" - a true believer is like a sheep following the shepherd.

Did you know that they've sold more than 100.000 copies of their DVD? And who knows how many T-shirts, bumper stickers and posters?

Maybe they are just pulling our legs. No question they have effectfully cornered the market for conspiracty theories. They have all the buzz right now and a huge "herd" of gullible males between 15 and 25. Why not prey on them?

Yep, Dylan Avery and the Louder Than Words crew has made a business off the deaths of thousands.

By the way, welcome to the forum. :)

[60hzxtl]

Welcome smother,

Some of us should wear Audit Dylan Avery shirts to the WTC on 9/11/06

The Kidz is havin a kontest over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10696

I encourage the non banned and talented to join in.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hey there - I have been following this forum since watching Loose Change for the first time. I have actually read about 50% of the posts regarding Loose Change. You sure have been busy bees :)

I have come to the realization that maybe Dylan, Jason and Korey are actually just salesmen. They know the value of a neat looking website, a spooky "documentary" and the power of belief. You can sell anything to a "truth seeker" - a true believer is like a sheep following the shepherd.

Did you know that they've sold more than 100.000 copies of their DVD? And who knows how many T-shirts, bumper stickers and posters?

Maybe they are just pulling our legs. No question they have effectfully cornered the market for conspiracty theories. They have all the buzz right now and a huge "herd" of gullible males between 15 and 25. Why not prey on them?

It's not unlike the buildup that was used to the release of The Blair Witch Project.

[chipmunk stew]

It's not unlike the buildup that was used to the release of The Blair Witch Project.
I'm fairly certain there are still people who think that was real.

[Belz...]

Hey there - I have been following this forum since watching Loose Change for the first time. I have actually read about 50% of the posts regarding Loose Change. You sure have been busy bees :)

Only 50% ? You need to work much harder (about twice as hard, in fact,) because that means you might have missed HALF of my glorious posts!!!

Welcome ;)

[smother]

Thanks a lot for the welcome.

I need to pay my respect to you all. There is nothing like facts, credible sources and expert testimonies when debunking CT's. And it has been a pleaure watching everyone of the myths being debunked.

[mrfreeze]

So what has been the response?

(in case you missed, the idea of a CT never even came up; nothing Stewart said during the show would make anyone think he even entertains the possibility of a CT. I'm guessing their response: he used to work for Keane and is therefore a lackey)

Actually no one has brought up how he slipped that he used to work for him. Several people are now saying he is a shill or a coward, others are calling him a "gatekeeper" whatever the hell that means, and one guy took my bait that he didn't say anything because he was born a jew and must be part of the zionist conspiracy.

Now I just wish Colbert had interviewed him too so they would know both of them think they are nuts.

[pgwenthold]

Actually no one has brought up how he slipped that he used to work for him. Several people are now saying he is a shill or a coward, others are calling him a "gatekeeper" whatever the hell that means, and one guy took my bait that he didn't say anything because he was born a jew and must be part of the zionist conspiracy.

Has no one ever ventured the thought that he just doesn't believe the CT stuff?

I know they were all jazzed at the possibilty that he would buy their nonsense, but what would be wrong with just admitting that, I guess he doesn't?

For some reason, they need to assert that he really _does_ believe it, but just won't talk about it?

[Class]

Loose Change 2nd Edition Recut is out: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10862&st=0&#entry6760678

[chacal]

They really did great job in correcting all the errors for this recut. I can only find one minor error: The film suggests that the whole thing was some kind of massive web of conspiracies. They only need to correct that one error for the Final cut for it to be rock solid.

[Brainster]

Actually no one has brought up how he slipped that he used to work for him. Several people are now saying he is a shill or a coward, others are calling him a "gatekeeper" whatever the hell that means.

The concept of the gatekeeper is that the conspiracy theory is being kept from entering the mainstream by people like Amy Goodman, Daily Kos, Noam Chomsky, David Corn, etc., who refuse to give credence to the 9-11 theories (indeed in the latter two cases, they actively dismiss them as nonsense).

[smother]

In the recut version flight 77 has Rolls Royce engines and not Pratt&Whitney. It's a great thing Dylan is still learning something new every day. After 3 years of intensive 9/11 research he has now discovered one of the basic and easy-to-find facts about 9/11. Very good, Dylan. Nice job.

However Dylan seems unable to connect the dots. He still believes the "no plane hit the Pentagon" theory. Maybe I am asking too much.

[Submersible]

They really did great job in correcting all the errors for this recut. I can only find one minor error: The film suggests that the whole thing was some kind of massive web of conspiracies. They only need to correct that one error for the Final cut for it to be rock solid.


I can't believe it.
It's just hard to imagine that after they blew the basement out of WTC 1&2 by crashing jets into the 75-80th floors of the structure, that they still had enough pixie dust left to turn FEMA into the world's fastest I-BEAM recovery , shipping, and REcycling machine.

I'm brand new here and only read the first and last pages of this thread,
but it sounds like the majority of you believe that God/Allah was willing to give those 19 "martyrs" ... THAT much pixie dust.

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

The Pentagon = Not one single image showing evidence of a 757 on approach, inside or outside of the building as it burned nor in the debris. This 757 supposedly "vaporized" also.

WTC 2 = A firechief was on the 78th floor calling for 2 engine companies and 2 hose lines on the floor where the plane crashed, the same place where the inferno raged that blew the basement out of the superstructure. You will hear him just like many other fireman report "explosions" between the time the towers were struck by the planes, and one group of them reported a series of explosions as the structure literally FELL down.

WTC 1 = Over 150 of the 346 FDNY men and women that died that day, did so because they could not hear the evacuation orders after the basement blew out of WTC 2, but the repeater worked because it picked up the radio traffic from tower 2. The FDNY fire commissioner has not asked any questions or shown any interest into the tapes released by the Port Authority that basically blew him and the mayor's signed "closed case" out of the water.

Regardless, if you want to blame the 8 or 9 biggest MIRACLES of our lifetime on the Muslim people that flew the planes on 9-11...
just remember that THEY are going to get the credit and recognition for having THAT MUCH POWER.

Unfortunately FEMA removed and destroyed all of the evidence before we could broadside the two most devout groups of people and inject our all powerful war MACHINE into their somewhat peaceful 1400yr. old Holy war, so it will be 50 or 60 years until we are able to teach our children what part of this 'history' to learn and believe.

Maybe you believe that Osama Bin Laden is the one who handed out all of that special pixie dust, and it doesn't matter how many women and children get in OUR way of hunting him down and "smoking him out of his hole". :jaw-dropp
speakng of a hole,
I just can't believe that the top portion of the towers that came crumbling down could turn three or four sub-level floors into DUST and blow all of that material out of the ground.
Since I can't post images yet, google this... (washington gndzero) ..
there is only one result if you want to SEE what I'm talking about.
The images suggest a massive web of conspiracies. FEMA removed everything from Ground Zero to protect the REAL terrorist by destroying all of the structural evidence.

:boxedin: unless your still going with the pixie dust theory.

[twinstead]

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

Lots of parroting of conspiracy web sites, very little original thinking, but this one right off the bat is totally false.

Perhaps you can tell us about all the first responders you have interviewed who can verify your claim that "little or NO" evidence remained?

Perhaps you haven't seen the pictures of the wreckage. Perhaps you have a typically cartoonish expectation of what should happen when a plane crashes into the ground at 500 mph. Who knows?

Maybe you should have read more of the thread.

[kookbreaker]

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.


Only if you fail to look hard enough. PLenty of body parts were recovered, as well as plane parts. Crashes tend not to leave much.


The Pentagon = Not one single image showing evidence of a 757 on approach, inside or outside


Like it or not, the entire world isn't being videotaped. The Pentagon preferred live security to camera. Why don't you ask the hundreds of witnesses.


of the building as it burned nor in the debris. This 757 supposedly "vaporized" also.


It disintigrated, but 'vaporized' is a CT myth. There are plenty of photos of airplane parts.


WTC 2 = A firechief was on the 78th floor calling for 2 engine companies and 2 hose lines on the floor where the plane crashed,


The major fire was above that floor. Read the NIST work.


the same place where the inferno raged that blew the basement out of the superstructure. You will hear him just like many other fireman report "explosions" between the time the towers were struck by the planes, and one group of them reported a series of explosions as the structure literally FELL down.

Explosions does not equal bombs.


WTC 1 = Over 150 of the 346 FDNY men and women that died that day, did so because they could not hear the evacuation orders after the basement blew out of WTC 2, but the repeater worked because it picked up the radio traffic from tower 2. The FDNY fire commissioner has not asked any questions or shown any interest into the tapes released by the Port Authority that basically blew him and the mayor's signed "closed case" out of the water.

This is a matter handled without conspriacy mongering, and your account is pretty far off base.


Regardless, if you want to blame the 8 or 9 biggest MIRACLES of our lifetime on the Muslim people that flew the planes on 9-11...
just remember that THEY are going to get the credit and recognition for having THAT MUCH POWER.

They took advantage of our weaknesses. Why is that hard for you to accept?


Unfortunately FEMA removed and destroyed all of the evidence


Bull.


before we could broadside the two most devout groups of people and inject our all powerful war MACHINE into their somewhat peaceful 1400yr. old Holy war, so it will be 50 or 60 years until we are able to teach our children what part of this 'history' to learn and believe.

Maybe you believe that Osama Bin Laden is the one who handed out all of that special pixie dust, and it doesn't matter how many women and children get in OUR way of hunting him down and "smoking him out of his hole". :jaw-dropp
speakng of a hole,
I just can't believe that the top portion of the towers that came crumbling down could turn three or four sub-level floors into DUST and blow all of that material out of the ground.


More standard dreck.


Since I can't post images yet, google this... (washington gndzero) ..
there is only one result if you want to SEE what I'm talking about.
The images suggest a massive web of conspiracies. FEMA removed everything from Ground Zero to protect the REAL terrorist by destroying all of the structural evidence.


If FEMA removed everything, then why does NIST have so many important pieces.


:boxedin: unless your still going with the pixie dust theory.

I'm going with what the Engineers around the world say happened, not some cream-dream of a bored film student.

[ob986s]

:boxedin: unless your still going with the pixie dust theory.

funny thing about the pixie dust theory, there is just as much solid evidence for the use of actual pixie dust as there is solid evidence of 9/11 being an inside job

welcome to the forum

Jon

[Darth Rotor]

I can't believe it.

I invite you to look at the flight path from the FDR recovered from Flight 77. There is a link to it in this forum. You can't recover a Flight Data Recorder from a Plane that wasn't there.

Until you do that, I suggest you read more and post less.

DR

[WildCat]

I can't believe it.
It's just hard to imagine that after they blew the basement out of WTC 1&2 by crashing jets into the 75-80th floors of the structure, that they still had enough pixie dust left to turn FEMA into the world's fastest I-BEAM recovery , shipping, and REcycling machine.
I can see you're new here. You'll have to do better than make claims. Back them up.

I'm brand new here and only read the first and last pages of this thread,
but it sounds like the majority of you believe that God/Allah was willing to give those 19 "martyrs" ... THAT much pixie dust.
Actually many of us here are atheists, and I's bet none of us believe in "pixie dust", whatever that is.

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.
Oh dear, where did you hear this? In fact, all 40 of the passengers and crew were identified (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/26/national/main502203.shtml), many through dental records. Hard to do that if they were "vaporized" as you claim. The remains of 4 others w/ distinct DNA profiles were also recovered - those were the hijackers, whose relatives declined to give DNA samples to confirm their identities.

Also: (http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/970609/detail.html)


After the crash about 10 a.m. Sept. 11, FBI officials said they expected the work at the site to take three to five weeks. On Monday, Crowley said good weather and a large number of workers -- as many as 1,500 in less than two weeks' time -- allowed the work to go more quickly. He said that the biggest piece of the aircraft which was found was a piece of the outer portion of the fuselage, which measures about 6 feet by 7 feet and included four windows. The heaviest piece found was a part of an engine fan weighing about 1,000 pounds, Crowley said.
Funny definition of "vaporized" you have there.

The Pentagon = Not one single image showing evidence of a 757 on approach, inside or outside of the building as it burned nor in the debris. This 757 supposedly "vaporized" also.
There you go again w/ the vaporized stuff - where do you get this? As far as approach (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/12/911.controllers/index.html):
Minutes later at Washington's Reagan National Airport, controllers also watched as American Flight 77 aimed right at them, then made a 360 degree turn and smashed into the Pentagon.
As far as remains go (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A61202-2001Nov20?language=printer):
Investigators have identified remains of 184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77 or inside the Pentagon, including those of the five hijackers, but they say it is impossible to match what is left with the five missing people.

WTC 2 = A firechief was on the 78th floor calling for 2 engine companies and 2 hose lines on the floor where the plane crashed, the same place where the inferno raged that blew the basement out of the superstructure. You will hear him just like many other fireman report "explosions" between the time the towers were struck by the planes, and one group of them reported a series of explosions as the structure literally FELL down.
You'll have to translate all that for me as far as what meaning I'm supposed to get out of it. Try to be specific.
WTC 1 = Over 150 of the 346 FDNY men and women that died that day, did so because they could not hear the evacuation orders after the basement blew out of WTC 2, but the repeater worked because it picked up the radio traffic from tower 2. The FDNY fire commissioner has not asked any questions or shown any interest into the tapes released by the Port Authority that basically blew him and the mayor's signed "closed case" out of the water.
see above.

Regardless, if you want to blame the 8 or 9 biggest MIRACLES of our lifetime on the Muslim people that flew the planes on 9-11...
just remember that THEY are going to get the credit and recognition for having THAT MUCH POWER.
There were 8 or 9 miracles on that day? What are they? And you say Muslims performed these miracles?

Unfortunately FEMA removed and destroyed all of the evidence before we could broadside the two most devout groups of people and inject our all powerful war MACHINE into their somewhat peaceful 1400yr. old Holy war, so it will be 50 or 60 years until we are able to teach our children what part of this 'history' to learn and believe.
Wow. Just... wow! :boggled:

Maybe you believe that Osama Bin Laden is the one who handed out all of that special pixie dust, and it doesn't matter how many women and children get in OUR way of hunting him down and "smoking him out of his hole". :jaw-dropp
OBL now has pixie dust? What does it do?

speakng of a hole,
I just can't believe that the top portion of the towers that came crumbling down could turn three or four sub-level floors into DUST and blow all of that material out of the ground.
Since I can't post images yet, google this... (washington gndzero) ..
there is only one result if you want to SEE what I'm talking about.
The images suggest a massive web of conspiracies. FEMA removed everything from Ground Zero to protect the REAL terrorist by destroying all of the structural evidence.
Perhaps you should consult some real structural engineers or demolitions experts to help you understand. You obviusly have not done so. Do you currently believe that OBL's "pixie dust" did all this? I have to get some of that for next July 4th!

:boxedin: unless your still going with the pixie dust theory.
Now I'm confused, I thought you were the one w/ the pixie dust theory? I never heard of it before, could you share it here?

[Regnad Kcin]

Submersible:

While a daunting task, you may just enjoy taking the time to peruse all the "Loose Change" threads (as well as the peripherals). Unless you are operating under confirmation bias (http://www.answers.com/topic/confirmation-bias), you will find all major "questions" regarding September 11th have been raised and adequately addressed. In short, what happened happened. No "inside job" conspiracy whatsoever.

The JREF is a place dedicated to critical thinking and its application to all manner of subjects. Please also browse around and enjoy the various subforums. And welcome.

[MarkyX]

Loose Change Recut is out..

Should I?

[mrfreeze]

Yes. Screw Loose Change is what kept a few of my friends from going down the woo path.

[Brainster]

In the recut version flight 77 has Rolls Royce engines and not Pratt&Whitney. It's a great thing Dylan is still learning something new every day. After 3 years of intensive 9/11 research he has now discovered one of the basic and easy-to-find facts about 9/11. Very good, Dylan. Nice job.

However Dylan seems unable to connect the dots. He still believes the "no plane hit the Pentagon" theory. Maybe I am asking too much.

He's pretty much locked in now; if he abandons any of the major points in LC2 he'll have to answer critics both in the CT crowd and the skeptic crowd. I did notice that he corrected some minor errors--he now pronounces McNamara as "MacNamara" and not "MickNamara".

[Submersible]

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

Lots of parroting of conspiracy web sites, very little original thinking, but this one right off the bat is totally false.

Perhaps you can tell us about all the first responders you have interviewed who can verify your claim that "little or NO" evidence remained?

Perhaps you haven't seen the pictures of the wreckage. Perhaps you have a typically cartoonish expectation of what should happen when a plane crashes into the ground at 500 mph. Who knows?

Maybe you should have read more of the thread.

Maybe you could scarfe up a few of those pictures that have body parts in them? The images results that I've seen show a group of men in slicker suits standing around scratching their watches and winding their assess.
Why would it be necessary for me to seek out and interview those men?
Wouldn't it be much more realistic for them or the coroner to report their findings to the government or the people?
Unfortunately for the moment I can't give you any of my cartoonish expectations of what supposedly happened when Flight 93 crashed, but I'm sure your familiar with the image containing ONE PUFF of smoke rising over a red barn in Shanksville ? ?
Beavis and Butthead wouldn't fall for this Mickey Mouse is a magic Muslim story as far as I can see.

And yes, it usually is wise to read more and talk less around a strange group of people.


Only if you fail to look hard enough. PLenty of body parts were recovered, as well as plane parts. Crashes tend not to leave much.

Not to be morbid, but do you have any photographs that show evidence of bodies recovered at or around the crash site of flight 93.

Like it or not, the entire world isn't being videotaped. The Pentagon preferred live security to camera. Why don't you ask the hundreds of witnesses.

"They" recovered videotape from the convience store and a hotel and the DMV... supposedly, according to the Loose Change video. And if none of those exist, how could the only footage they let us see NOT contain a clear image of a 757 as it approached the pentagon. What was it, about 3 months ago when they finally released ONE more clip from their video tapes and it had nothing on it that resembled a 757.
Like it or not, I demand more peace of mind for my family than what is being offered by the USG.

The major fire was above that floor. Read the NIST work.
According to the Port Authority tapes this fireman was on the floor where the plane entered the building. For some reason his voice and his request for help overrule the NIST work. Just like I'm a big fan of the images that have been offered from all angles of this spectrum compared to the massive amount of bovine excrement offered in writing by the so called "experts".

This is a matter handled without conspriacy mongering, and your account is pretty far off base.
It's been about 4 months since I listened to the tapes, I do know that the fire commissioner has not questioned or re-opened the investigation into the death of 346 fireman, even after the P.O. tapes proved that the repeater was not to blame for the high amount of deaths.

They took advantage of our weaknesses. Why is that hard for you to accept?
Because 'they' haven't touched us since, and our military has been tromping wide open through their women children and homeland not long after FEMA got finished recycling all of the incriminating evidence against them.

I'm going with what the Engineers around the world say happened, not some cream-dream of a bored film student.
Watch the video agaon but this time put it on mute.
The FDA can find scientist from around the world to say that aspartame is safe for human consumption, when it contains a healthy dose of methanol and formaldehyde. fact.

"We the people" are not on the same team as the USG anymore , that's all I'm trying to say.

[Regnad Kcin]

Submersible:

Your post directly above contains many errors of reasoning. Do you know that?

[Mancman]

According to the Port Authority tapes this fireman was on the floor where the plane entered the building. For some reason his voice and his request for help overrule the NIST work. Just like I'm a big fan of the images that have been offered from all angles of this spectrum compared to the massive amount of bovine excrement offered in writing by the so called "experts".


No. He was on the 78th floor, where the wingtip struck. Take a look at the photo, there is no smoke coming from floor 78:
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/WTC2Floors_b.jpg

It was in fact the very lowest fire affected floor. If that had 'two isolated pockets of fire', then I imagine the floors above must have been a in really bad way.

[rwguinn]

"I fly a starship
Across the universe divine
and when I reach the other side...
...
and I'll be back again, and again, and again....."
Highwayman--Cash, Kristopherson, Nelson, Jennings
actually, they're not that sophisticated, it more like
"here we go 'round the mulberry bush..."

[twinstead]

"We the people" are not on the same team as the USG anymore , that's all I'm trying to say.


No, you're trying to say that it's okay to take a healthy dose of ideological bias, throw in some conjecture, half truths, rumor, and paranioa, mix well, and call it smoking gun proof of a conspiracy.

It's not

[Gravy]

I can't believe it.

Welcome to the forum, Submersible.

I don't have time to respond to each of your points. They've all been covered here before. I'll give you a start with the first, since I happen to have the document open on my desktop. Please review this evidence about flight 93 and let us know if it changes your understanding of that crash.

Thanks,
Gravy

At Shanksville, which was by far the smallest of the three crash scenes, over 1,100 people from 74 agencies and organizations were on the scene.

On 9/11 alone, these included:

• 8 Police Departments
• 7 EMS Services
• 8 Fire Departments
• 10 Emergency Management Agencies
• NTSB
• ATF
• FBI
• CISM
• Red Cross
• United Airlines

Some information from, and about, agencies that were on the scene.
http://www.epa.gov/region7/news_even...y/flight93.pdf
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/emerg...es/091201a.htm
http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/sp/s..._ch3_grant.pdf
http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/qr/qr157/qr157.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...b/s_12940.html

Then there's the fact that most of the plane was recovered, was examined for signs of explosives by the FBI, and was turned over to United Airlines (except for the black boxes, which went to the NTSB).
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...cene0925p2.asp
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/2...ite/index.html

Remains from every victim were recovered and positively identified. Wallace Miller of the Somerset County Coroner's Office was on his hands and knees for two weeks collecting remains.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...ry/3972571.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

Two of the country's top forensics experts were on the scene: Paul Sledzik, who led the Flight 93 Disaster Mortuary Team, and Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat, who was Wallace Miller's chief scientific advisor.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...dzik0925p3.asp

The personal effects of most victims were recovered and returned to the families.
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/f...7flight93.html

The phone calls made from the plane:
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...s/P200055.html (includes seating assignments and seats where Airfone calls were made.)
http://www.s-t.com/daily/09-02/09-10-02/a02wn022.htm
Photo of Airfone from flight 93 crash scene
http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID=28

The Air Traffic Control recordings and accounts.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc08.pdf
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...b/s_90223.html

The Cockpit Voice Recorder recording transcript
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200056T.pdf
Photo of CVR: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200065.html

The Flight Data Recorder recording.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc04.pdf
Photo: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200066.html

The NORAD recordings.
http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

The numerous witnesses on the ground.
http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_eyewitness.html

The 300 volunteers who collected debris and remains in the final sweep three weeks after the crash.
http://www.epa.gov/region7/news_even...y/flight93.pdf

Photos of the crash scene, debris, and personal effects.
http://www.epa.gov/region7/news_even...y/flight93.pdf
http://pittsburgh.about.com/library/...light_93-5.htm
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/
http://americanhistory.si.edu/septem...fferphoto.html http://911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.html
http://www.heinz.org/files/h-spring05-SacredGround.pdf
http://www.september11news.com/Flight93.htm
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200068.html
P200069

Hijacker identification from the crash scene:
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00108.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00101.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00102.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00103-2.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00105-08.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00109.html

Val McClatchey's photo (certified as authentic by the FBI's examination of her camera's memory card.)
http://www.shanksvillememorial.com/endofserenity.html

The Falcon 20 crew's report.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...rjetnat5p5.asp

The C-130 crew's report
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=FCVRkA...ch=Shanksville

*****

40 Lives, One Destiny.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...ainstoryp7.asp

*****

Some contact information for flight 93 crash scene responders.

Shanksville Volunteer Fire Co
Shanksville, PA 15560
(814) 267-4737
Terry Schaffer, Fire Chief
Rick King, Assistant Chief

Somerset County Coroner's Office
555 Tayman Avenue, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-6900
Wallace Miller, Coroner

Somerset County Emergency Services
100 East Union Street, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-1515

WESTMORELAND COUNTY
DEPARTMENT OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT
12 Court House Square
Greensburg, PA 15601
724-600-7300

Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency
Harrisburg, PA 17101
(717) 651-2001

Paul Sledzik, Curator Disaster Mortuary Team Main
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology National Museum of Health and Medicine
(He led flight 93 DMORT investigation)
202-782-2204 sledzik@email.afip.osd.mil

Disaster Mortuary Team Main office: 1-800-USA-NDMS, ext. 205
DMORT Region 3 office (includes Pennsylvania) 410-676-4600

Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat
Director, Applied Forensic Sciences Department
Mercyhurst College
501 E. 38th St.
Erie, PA 16546
dirkmaat@mercyhurst.edu
(814) 824-2105

[Submersible]

In short, what happened happened. No "inside job" conspiracy whatsoever.

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

Pardon me for not going back through this thread and seeing if anybody showed you guys the before and during images of tower 7 as the basement flew out from underneath it.

Bye bye tower 7, bye bye CIA.

Somebody here please explain when and how the CIA was 'born' and I'll shut up and go the other way., please !

[defaultdotxbe]

Wouldn't it be much more realistic for them or the coroner to report their findings to the government or the people?
he did, wally miller found over 1500 body parts, as claimed in his report

Not to be morbid, but do you have any photographs that show evidence of bodies recovered at or around the crash site of flight 93.
if you saw pictures would it change your mind or would you just call it fake?

"They" recovered videotape from the convience store and a hotel and the DMV... supposedly, according to the Loose Change video.
yes, they did get those tapes, but they likely dont show anything (as a convience store or hotel owner would you point your security cameras at a building a mile away or to your own property?

What was it, about 3 months ago when they finally released ONE more clip from their video tapes and it had nothing on it that resembled a 757.
it has nothing resembles anything not a 757 either

According to the Port Authority tapes this fireman was on the floor where the plane entered the building. For some reason his voice and his request for help overrule the NIST work. Just like I'm a big fan of the images that have been offered from all angles of this spectrum compared to the massive amount of bovine excrement offered in writing by the so called "experts".
you obviously didnt read the NIST report, the fires on floor 78 had burned out by then, the floors above had the worst fires (maybe thats why he stopped on floor 78 and didnt go any higher?)

It's been about 4 months since I listened to the tapes, I do know that the fire commissioner has not questioned or re-opened the investigation into the death of 346 fireman, even after the P.O. tapes proved that the repeater was not to blame for the high amount of deaths.
perhaps the heard the evacuation order but didnt HEED the evacuation order. it wouldnt surprise me in the least to learn the the firemen refused to evacuate a building that still had civilians in it

Because 'they' haven't touched us since
you say that as if we havent increased our awareness of threats, if i put my arm around your shoulder in a freindly manner then sucker-punch you in the gut, what are you going to think next time i put my arm on your shoulder?

[Gravy]

Maybe you could scarfe up a few of those pictures that have body parts in them? The images results that I've seen show a group of men in slicker suits standing around scratching their watches and winding their assess.
No, Submersible, they investigated the crime scene and collected every scrap of human remains they could find. Would you like to have had that job? It's not a good idea to compound ignorance with rudeness. Please do your homework.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044cee5fd97a51.jpg

[WildCat]

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

Pardon me for not going back through this thread and seeing if anybody showed you guys the before and during images of tower 7 as the basement flew out from underneath it.

Bye bye tower 7, bye bye CIA.

Somebody here please explain when and how the CIA was 'born' and I'll shut up and go the other way., please !
This would go much easier if you would just pick one topic at a time. You may find it hard to believe, but we've been through all of this many times over now. WTC7, pods, CGI, dancing Israelis, thermite, global hawks, missiles, etc etc etc.

Why don't you just throw your best piece of evidence at us? I guarantee you we've covered it before.

[defaultdotxbe]

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

it was hit by tons of falling debris

it had damage to the southwest corner

it had a huge hole (20 stories high about 1/4 of the way deep into the building) on the south side

it was visibly leaning to the south for hours before it collapsed

the "sack of hammers," as you put it, hit WTC7 squarely on the head

[T.A.M.]

Beyond the fact that the new recut version has lost about 80% of its impact via what he has had to remove or reword, I would say that some of the funniest crap in there, is when he shows the outlines of the Boeing 757 in two different pictures. Now I am assuming that when looking at the same section of the building, where the jet hit, that he would have the outline of the about to impact jet at the same height....but no. In one picture, he has the jet just above the ground, then in the very next photo, which he even nicely cross disolves for us, the outline of the jet is about 8 feet above ground. Of course, he has to do this, because that is the only way the "16 Foot Hole" theory, which yes boy sand girls he still tries to sell, will even seem plausible.

[Gravy]

Hey there - I have been following this forum since watching Loose Change for the first time. I have actually read about 50% of the posts regarding Loose Change. You sure have been busy bees :)

I have come to the realization that maybe Dylan, Jason and Korey are actually just salesmen. They know the value of a neat looking website, a spooky "documentary" and the power of belief. You can sell anything to a "truth seeker" - a true believer is like a sheep following the shepherd.

Did you know that they've sold more than 100.000 copies of their DVD? And who knows how many T-shirts, bumper stickers and posters?

Maybe they are just pulling our legs. No question they have effectfully cornered the market for conspiracty theories. They have all the buzz right now and a huge "herd" of gullible males between 15 and 25. Why not prey on them?
Welcome to the forum, Smother.

Do you have a reference for that 100,000 sold claim? I'd be shocked if that were true, considering that it's available for free.

[Brainster]

I can't believe it.
It's just hard to imagine that after they blew the basement out of WTC 1&2 by crashing jets into the 75-80th floors of the structure, that they still had enough pixie dust left to turn FEMA into the world's fastest I-BEAM recovery , shipping, and REcycling machine.

You do understand that the fireball which was so visible outside the building, was also inside the building, and that when the two planes (especially AA 11, which hit more directly) punctured the building's core that those fireballs traveled quickly down the elevator shafts?

I'm brand new here and only read the first and last pages of this thread, but it sounds like the majority of you believe that God/Allah was willing to give those 19 "martyrs" ... THAT much pixie dust.

Que?

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

False (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200061.html).

The Pentagon = Not one single image showing evidence of a 757 on approach, inside or outside of the building as it burned nor in the debris. This 757 supposedly "vaporized" also.

Another falsehood (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200045.html). (Graphic photo)

WTC 2 = A firechief was on the 78th floor calling for 2 engine companies and 2 hose lines on the floor where the plane crashed, the same place where the inferno raged that blew the basement out of the superstructure. You will hear him just like many other fireman report "explosions" between the time the towers were struck by the planes, and one group of them reported a series of explosions as the structure literally FELL down.

Explosions do not always indicate "explosives". In a fire, a soda can, or an aerosol container can and will become explosive. Anyway, if so many firemen are convinced that explosives brought down the buildings, why are so few of them involved with 9-11 Denial?

WTC 1 = Over 150 of the 346 FDNY men and women that died that day, did so because they could not hear the evacuation orders after the basement blew out of WTC 2, but the repeater worked because it picked up the radio traffic from tower 2. The FDNY fire commissioner has not asked any questions or shown any interest into the tapes released by the Port Authority that basically blew him and the mayor's signed "closed case" out of the water.

This is a valid poiint. Congratulations! You did better than Dylan Avery!

Regardless, if you want to blame the 8 or 9 biggest MIRACLES of our lifetime on the Muslim people that flew the planes on 9-11...
just remember that THEY are going to get the credit and recognition for having THAT MUCH POWER.

Where are the miracles? Methinks you are racist against Muslims, since you believe they could not have been capable of such amazing acts.

Unfortunately FEMA removed and destroyed all of the evidence before we could broadside the two most devout groups of people and inject our all powerful war MACHINE into their somewhat peaceful 1400yr. old Holy war, so it will be 50 or 60 years until we are able to teach our children what part of this 'history' to learn and believe.

FEMA did not remove and destroy all the evidence. And who are these "two most devout groups of people"?

Maybe you believe that Osama Bin Laden is the one who handed out all of that special pixie dust, and it doesn't matter how many women and children get in OUR way of hunting him down and "smoking him out of his hole".

Confusing two issues. You can argue against the Afghanistan war without engaging in 9-11 Denial (although you'll be pretty lonely).

speakng of a hole,
I just can't believe that the top portion of the towers that came crumbling down could turn three or four sub-level floors into DUST and blow all of that material out of the ground.

How do you know what happened to the three or four sub-level floors?

Since I can't post images yet, google this... (washington gndzero) ..
there is only one result if you want to SEE what I'm talking about.
The images suggest a massive web of conspiracies. FEMA removed everything from Ground Zero to protect the REAL terrorist by destroying all of the structural evidence.

Wow, a picture taken maybe six-nine months after 9-11? Are you aware that the rubble was taken to Freshkills and poured over by investigators?

[T.A.M.]

even better, is when he is describing a cordite explosion...once again he is describing the explosion at the pentagon as a "small silvery flash" while his own picture, for all to see, has this huge yellowy orange fireball on it...lol

[T.A.M.]

I've got a question. In the new LC, the quote Dylan uses about the hotel tapes for the Pentagon crash, states that, "The Hotel Employees sat and watched the film in horror several times before the FBI confiscated it."

Seems the EASIEST thing in the world would be to track down these employees and ask them what was on the tape...was it a plane, or a missile...how come a sleuth like D.A. and crowd havnt done that??

[Dog Town]

Seems the EASIEST thing in the world would be to track down these employees and ask them what was on the tape...was it a plane, or a missile...how come a sleuth like D.A. and crowd havnt done that??

What and do research? It would also blow a third of his fiction!

[defaultdotxbe]

I've got a question. In the new LC, the quote Dylan uses about the hotel tapes for the Pentagon crash, states that, "The Hotel Employees sat and watched the film in horror several times before the FBI confiscated it."

Seems the EASIEST thing in the world would be to track down these employees and ask them what was on the tape...was it a plane, or a missile...how come a sleuth like D.A. and crowd havnt done that??

according to LC2 they were told not to talk about what they had seen (although i doubt they would have remained silent if it was obviously not a 757....but hey, add them to the "conspirators" list)

[kookbreaker]

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?


Seven hours of raging, completely unfought fire, will do nasty things to a building's structure. Y'all seem to forget that little detail.

[kookbreaker]

Watch the video agaon but this time put it on mute.
The FDA can find scientist from around the world to say that aspartame is safe for human consumption, when it contains a healthy dose of methanol and formaldehyde. fact.


And your tap water contains a healthy dose of Chlorine. You don't impress me with scaremongering.


"We the people" are not on the same team as the USG anymore , that's all I'm trying to say.

And I'm trying to tell you that whatever our government's interst in us or lack therof is not aided by fools like you MAKING UP SH**** FANTASIES ABOUT CONSPIRACIES.

[T.A.M.]

Article about previous buildings collapsing due to fire (http://www.fpemag.com/archives/article.asp?issue_id=27&i=153)

Any thoughts??

Oh and those hotel employees...how does he know they were told not to talk? who said this, and if so, who asked them the questions that they were forced to refuse to answer...anonymous claims...

[kookbreaker]

Because 'they' haven't touched us since,


It was a one-shot tactic. They won't be able to use it again. Meanwhile, we've been breaking up the support and backbone of Al-Queda.

[Brainster]

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

Nope. It was damaged by the collapse of WTC 1 (North Tower). I've got some pretty pictures here (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/wtc-7.html). There were also numerous fires raging in the building, possible fueled by diesel tanks in the building which were intended to power generators in the event of a blackout. From pictures I have seen the worst fires were on the 7th floor, which is crucial because floors 5-7 were where the loads from the upper floors were transferred to the electrical power substation atop which the building was constructed.

Pardon me for not going back through this thread and seeing if anybody showed you guys the before and during images of tower 7 as the basement flew out from underneath it.

Just an amusing turn of language there, or are we supposed to refute the flying basement theory?

Bye bye tower 7, bye bye CIA.

Yes, the federal government wanted to get rid of a CIA office. Hey, I remember that movie!

Somebody here please explain when and how the CIA was 'born' and I'll shut up and go the other way., please !

The CIA morphed out of the OSS (Office of Strategic Services), a World War II intelligence gathering unit. Originally known as the Central Intelligence Group, it was formally established by the National Security Act of 1947.

[kookbreaker]

"They" recovered videotape from the convience store and a hotel and the DMV...


And why, exactly, do you expect these videos to have anything? Convenicne stores typically have their cameras pointed and focused close, same with hotels, DMVs aren;t much different. Do you think commercial properties are in the habit of pointing their secutiry buildings at public buildings in the hopes that something will happen?



Very easily: They were simple cameras designed to watch the parking lot. They took only 1 pic per second or so.

[QUOTE]
What was it, about 3 months ago when they finally released ONE more clip from their video tapes and it had nothing on it that resembled a 757.


So? Seems like the Pentagon cameras didn't capture much.


Like it or not, I demand more peace of mind for my family than what is being offered by the USG.

You might start by not making up government boogey-men and scaring your children with this nonsense.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The schedual for Friday, August 18, 2006, at 8:30 a.m. (EDT) for the CBC Radio show "The Current" says:
"Conspiracy theories still swirl about the events of September 11th. This morning, The Current looks at what those theories say about U-S politics and culture."

The Current is non-Woo and is usually pretty good. It is not a phone-in show and has researchers who actually try and find the truth (whatever that may be).

The show's website is <ht tp:/ /ww w.cbc. ca/the current/ > (without the spaces, of course).

It is available via the i'net and on Sirius (the satellite radio service -- I don't know about availability on the star).

The promo I heard implied that some of the "Scholars for Truth" would be interviewed.

Gord

[Submersible]

Most of those links didn't work but it did change my perception some, thanks Gravy.


The Pentagon = Not one single image showing evidence of a 757 on approach, inside or outside of the building as it burned nor in the debris. This 757 supposedly "vaporized" also.


Another falsehood. (Graphic photo)

They did have people inside the building didn't they ?

This is a valid poiint. Congratulations! You did better than Dylan Avery!

How can he pretend as if the Port Authority tapes that were released in 11-04 didn't make him and the mayor both appear to be part of the cover-up ?

No, Submersible, they investigated the crime scene and collected every scrap of human remains they could find. Would you like to have had that job? It's not a good idea to compound ignorance with rudeness. Please do your homework.
I've had that job, not on such a large scale, but I've had that job.
It's not as if our media protects U.S. from the gore of war and life that takes place around the world and in this country, so why are there no, or very few images of human remains on these two crash scenes ?

If one body remained intact inside of the pentagon then the rest of them couldn't have burned away.

Why don't you just throw your best piece of evidence at us? I guarantee you we've covered it before.

did you google that image of Ground Zero?
How could the foundation fail to support the falling debris ?

[defaultdotxbe]

It's not as if our media protects U.S. from the gore of war and life that takes place around the world and in this country, so why are there no, or very few images of human remains on these two crash scenes ?
crime scenes are sensative areas, they geenrally dont let the media run around all over the place

If one body remained intact inside of the pentagon then the rest of them couldn't have burned away.
this assumes conditions were identical everywhere, and that soemthign 50 feet form the crash would be burned the same amoutn as soemthing 5 feet from the crash

How could the foundation fail to support the falling debris ?
ive calculated this before, when the 79th floor hit the 78th floor it excerted a force of roughly 9 million tons, this force only grew larger as the collapse progressed

[Submersible]

The CIA morphed out of the OSS (Office of Strategic Services), a World War II intelligence gathering unit. Originally known as the Central Intelligence Group, it was formally established by the National Security Act of 1947.

Who did they gather ?

Yes, as you can see from the photo below, WTC 7 was severely damaged:

Here's a graphic estimate of how much of the building was actually damaged by the impact of Tower One:


That image you have posted in your blog showing the damage to tower 7 is FAR from realistic.

Yes, the federal government wanted to get rid of a CIA office. Hey, I remember that movie!

It was all a dream.

[defaultdotxbe]

That image you have posted in your blog showing the damage to tower 7 is FAR from realistic
perhaps you should show us a picture that is more realistic? will it also be based on fire fighters reports of the scene?

[kookbreaker]

That image you have posted in your blog showing the damage to tower 7 is FAR from realistic.


Do you have any proof of this claim whatsoever?

[T.A.M.]

Through a tonne of footage and through numerous testimony, it is fact that the tower impacts and colapses caused millions of pieces of paper to fall to the ground....so.

If you wanted to eliminate the paper trails of various "entities" how would you best go about it...

que Jeopardy music.....

Dum dadumdumdum dum dum..boom bang.

(1) Shred it all
(2) Blow up the building it is stored in, releasing millions of pieces of paper (incriminating papers included) into the air for the public to see, and potentially read...

Your answers please...

[Regnad Kcin]

...If one body remained intact inside of the pentagon then the rest of them couldn't have burned away...Your few posts so far contain so much flawed reasoning, it's difficult to wade through them. The portion above, for example. Can you not see the error?

[Earl The Tall]

supposedly, according to the Loose Change video. And if none of those exist, how could the only footage they let us see NOT contain a clear image of a 757 as it approached the pentagon.

Very easily: They were simple cameras designed to watch the parking lot. They took only 1 pic per second or so.

Plus most camera's in terms of sercurity would point in the direction of the building and not the surrounding area. And the Pentagon uses live sercurity for the most part.

[Regnad Kcin]

That image you [Brainster] have posted in your blog showing the damage to tower 7 is FAR from realistic.And you know this...how? In answering, I'd appreciate you including your qualifications.

[Gravy]

Most of those links didn't work but it did change my perception some, thanks Gravy.

AAARGH! Thanks for letting me know. It's the ones with the ellipses (...) in them, which were cut and pasted from another post. They all worked yesterday. I'll fix them.

[gumboot]

I'm fairly certain there are still people who think that was real.

The difference is Blair Witch Project was a totally manufactured event cleverly presented and marketed in such a way that it appeared to be true...

On the other hand LC is... oh... wait...

-Andrew

[gumboot]

others are calling him a "gatekeeper" whatever the hell that means

:eek:

Don't let him near the key master. Then we'll be in REAL trouble.

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Submersible,
This post contains most of the same links, and they work. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1851343&postcount=177

[defaultdotxbe]

The difference is Blair Witch Project was a totally manufactured event cleverly presented and marketed in such a way that it appeared to be true...

On the other hand LC is... oh... wait...

-Andrew

ever see alien abduction: incident in lake county?

same deal (but better than blair witch IMO)

[Earl The Tall]

ever see alien abduction: incident in lake county?

same deal (but better than blair witch IMO)

No, but I have heard about it. Is that the one where the family has a shoot out with the aliens?

[JamesB]

Heh, he change the Burlingame part to "an ex-Navy pilot before retiring" participated in an earlier version of MASCAL. I guess Dylan has been reading SLC.

This whole thing is silly anyway. MASCAL is short for Mass Casualty, it is an exericise to practice the emergency response to a catastrophic event, not a rehearsal of the event itself.

[CurtC]

If one body remained intact inside of the pentagon then the rest of them couldn't have burned away.
I didn't see exactly what this was responding to, but I don't think any of the bodies from flight 77 would have remained intact. I have seen some of the pictures from the Pentagon showing burned bodies, but I was assuming that these were of people who worked in the Pentagon and were killed by the fireball. Am I wrong about that?

[Gravy]

I didn't see exactly what this was responding to, but I don't think any of the bodies from flight 77 would have remained intact. I have seen some of the pictures from the Pentagon showing burned bodies, but I was assuming that these were of people who worked in the Pentagon and were killed by the fireball. Am I wrong about that?
That's what I've always assumed.

[JamesB]

I didn't see exactly what this was responding to, but I don't think any of the bodies from flight 77 would have remained intact. I have seen some of the pictures from the Pentagon showing burned bodies, but I was assuming that these were of people who worked in the Pentagon and were killed by the fireball. Am I wrong about that?

At the Moussaoui trial they introduced into evidence a flash presentation that shows the location of all the bodies, and body parts of the victims at the Pentagon. The passengers on the plane were pretty torn up. For some reason this was left out of the Loose Change recut.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/pentagon-victims.html

[gumboot]

I can't believe it.

:boxedin: unless your still going with the pixie dust theory.


Submersible,

Firstly, welcome to the forum. Secondly, some advice. The people here are incredibly polite and open-minded people (except when it comes to politics, don't go there... :p) with a great deal of integrity.

If you approach your points of discussion while displaying respect for these individuals, they will be fair and reasonable in their discussion.

However, please remember at all times, this particular topic has been thoroughly discussed. I myself feel fairly confident to rebut all of your points purely from memory, and my knowledge of these events is utterly dwarfed by some of the "heavy weights" here.

Furthermore, they WONT just rebut you off the top of their heads. They will carefully and precisely present well-resourced and hard-researched evidence from numerous outside sources.

Many here have particular expertise in various aspects of 9/11, and many here work, or have worked in the various professions in question.

If you wish to discuss this topic here, I gently suggest you do your homework. Because we have done ours.

And one last piece of advice.

Although for most people 9/11 was a detached event happening on a TV screen, for some of our forum members the event was very real. Many live in New York and witnessed the event - and the aftermath - first hand. Others here lost friends and family on September 11. Conspiracy or not, their loved ones HAVE been taken from them.

Due respect for the victims would be appreciated.

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while. The 9/11 Commission report says that flight 77 hit the Pentagon at 530 mph (460 knots).

Somewhere along the way, information began spreading that the FDR showed the speed as 345 mph, although I've never seen the FDR transcript, and I haven't found the source of that info.

But according to the recently released flight path info, which is based on the FDR readings and radar data, flight 77 did hit the Pentagon at approximately 530 mph.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf

Does anyone know where the figure of 345 came from? Anyone know if the FDR transcript has been released? And perhaps the speed is "approximately" 530 because that part of the data was unrecoverable?

[defaultdotxbe]

Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while. The 9/11 Commission report says that flight 77 hit the Pentagon at 530 mph (460 knots).

Somewhere along the way, information began spreading that the FDR showed the speed as 345 mph, although I've never seen the FDR transcript, and I haven't found the source of that info.

But according to the recently released flight path info, which is based on the FDR readings, flight 77 did hit the Pentagon at 530 mph.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf

Does anyone know where the figure of 345 came from?

could be an airpseed/groundspeed thing, not really sure

[mrfreeze]

The lone skeptic moderator has been removed, one wonders how long before he is banned. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10841&view=findpost&p=6765000

[Dog Town]

Somewhere along the way, information began spreading that the FDR showed the speed as 345 mph, although I've never seen the FDR transcript, and I haven't found the source of that info.


Does anyone know where the figure of 345 came from?

Here's where I first saw it
I am researching Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. The aircraft was a Boeing 757-200 traveling 345 mph according to the flight data recorder. Because of damage to light poles about 1500 feet from the building, the leading edge of the wing was about 15-18 feet off the ground at this location. The impact damage at the building is contained below the slab of the second floor, which is 14 feet high. Nothing hit the lawn prior to the building facade. How would ground effect have been overcome for this scenario?
- Russell Pickering
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

[Gravy]

Here's where I first saw it

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml
Thanks. I'll email Russell if I don't see the source on his site.

ETA: apparently this comes from a Fox News story, which gets other details wrong, so I'm sticking with the 530 figure until I see evidence otherwise.
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/345.htm

[Obviousman]

Here is a link for the official history of the OSS:

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/oss/index.htm

[Gravy]

There's a self-proclaimed "sock puppet expert" on Letterman now. (Puppetry, not internet decption). :D

[Dog Town]

Eagles/Ravens NFL Ch.

[Submersible]

Firehouse Magazine
FDNY 9/11 Tapes Revisited: New Questions
Port Authority Analysis Contradicts City Report


Updated: 12-23-2002 09:54:50 AM

For much of the last year, New York City has said the devastating breakdown in fire communications at the World Trade Center was largely caused by the failure of an electronic device in the complex called a repeater, which was designed to boost radio transmissions in high rise buildings.



...snip...

wikipedia : CIA

In its creation many disposed Nazi operatives were recruited to become agents, they were offered financial packages and promised to be exempt from trial for their war crimes committed in World War II. This was a result of Operation Paperclip. Rear Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter was appointed as the first Director of Central Intelligence.

It has now been firmly established (see references below) that the OSS actively recruited and protected many high ranking Nazi officers immediately following World War II, a policy that was carried on by the CIA.[12] These included, the CIA now admits, the notorious "butcher of Lyon" Klaus Barbie, Hitler's Chief of Soviet Intelligence General Reinhard Gehlen, and numerous less-renowned Gestapo officers.

"We came to the conclusion that arguing about the different versions was not a fruitful exercise,"

[Gravy]

Firehouse Magazine
FDNY 9/11 Tapes Revisited: New Questions
Port Authority Analysis Contradicts City Report

"We came to the conclusion that arguing about the different versions was not a fruitful exercise,"

A suggestion: when printing long quotes, tell us why they're significant. Earlier you said,

How can he pretend as if the Port Authority tapes that were released in 11-04 didn't make him and the mayor both appear to be part of the cover-up ?
Did you introduce the quote above as evidence of a cover-up? If so, can you be more specific?

Also, are you aware that another 1,600 FDNY 9/11 calls were released today?

[Regnad Kcin]

Submersible,

Firstly, welcome to the forum. Secondly, some advice. The people here are incredibly polite and open-minded people (except when it comes to politics, don't go there... :p) with a great deal of integrity.

If you approach your points of discussion while displaying respect for these individuals, they will be fair and reasonable in their discussion.

However, please remember at all times, this particular topic has been thoroughly discussed. I myself feel fairly confident to rebut all of your points purely from memory, and my knowledge of these events is utterly dwarfed by some of the "heavy weights" here.

Furthermore, they WONT just rebut you off the top of their heads. They will carefully and precisely present well-resourced and hard-researched evidence from numerous outside sources.

Many here have particular expertise in various aspects of 9/11, and many here work, or have worked in the various professions in question.

If you wish to discuss this topic here, I gently suggest you do your homework. Because we have done ours.

And one last piece of advice.

Although for most people 9/11 was a detached event happening on a TV screen, for some of our forum members the event was very real. Many live in New York and witnessed the event - and the aftermath - first hand. Others here lost friends and family on September 11. Conspiracy or not, their loved ones HAVE been taken from them.

Due respect for the victims would be appreciated.

-AndrewAn excellent, well-stated post, with one glaring error: you greatly minimize your significant contributions.

[Regnad Kcin]

Firehouse Magazine
FDNY 9/11 Tapes Revisited: New Questions
Port Authority Analysis Contradicts City Report

<snip>You have been greeted and directly addressed. No harm if you choose to ignore this. However, if you are going to be a mass-quoter or a link-citer, you simply won't get far. That's not how debate works.

How 'bout returning to one single point you've asserted and stick to that for awhile?

[Gravy]

An excellent, well-stated post, with one glaring error: you greatly minimize your significant contributions.
Agreed. I can't think of anyone more knowledgeable about these issues than Andrew.

[CurtC]

So that's it? The conspiracy consists of fire officials in New York who didn't properly investigate the system failures in the radio systems they had been using in 2001? Boy, that's front-page stuff.

And that the OSS in its early days recruited some former Nazi officers?

[Submersible]

Also, are you aware that another 1,600 FDNY 9/11 calls were released today?

What are they good for?
If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?

Boy, that's front-page stuff.
For some reason I believe some of you may think I was trying to impress or convince you of something different than you already believed.

For the most part I have just been questioning myself.

SOME ?

[Gravy]

Perhaps you can explain what the conspiracy is that you're obliquely referring to.

[Gravy]

What are they good for?
It was you who just made a long post about communications in the WTC. I thought you'd be interested to know that many more of those communications were just released. If you're not interested in them from a research standpoint, perhaps you can benefit from a human interest standpoint.

If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?
If that "knowledge" is based on the information currently being spread by the "truth movement," "we the people" will need to do a lot of work to educate those people about the facts.

For some reason I believe some of you may think I was trying to impress or convince you of something different than you already believed.

For the most part I have just been questioning myself.

SOME ?
This is a forum where logic, evidence, and clear, critical thinking are expected. Random thoughts or questions aren't terribly productive unless accompanied by explanations of why you think they're worthy of consideration.

Have you had a chance to look at some of those flight 93 links?

[steve s]

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

Please look at the this photo. (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w941031.htm) It's of a plane crash in Indiana on October 31, 1994. Please point out where the bodies are. For that matter, point out where are the seats, the luggage the engines........
The word "obliterated" comes to mind.




I just can't believe that the top portion of the towers that came crumbling down could turn three or four sub-level floors into DUST and blow all of that material out of the ground.


Just because you can't believe something doesn't mean it ain't so. If the top portion had no trouble collapsing 70+ floors of the tower, why in the world would it have any trouble collapsing four sub-floors?

Steve S.

[Regnad Kcin]

What are they good for?The phone transcripts are a reminder of the human element of the tragedy. Something that can be forgotten, especially when CTers routinely speak of "the government," as if it were a thing, a machine.

If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?That kind of a percentage would only serve to further show how "you can fool some of the people some of the time."

Friend, there are only two ways anyone can "come to a conclusion" about something: they are presented with factual, verifiable evidence, or misled with lies and innuendo. Which would you like to provide?

[JamesB]

Same old bull. I don't remember if they said this in the last version, but I just noticed Dylan said, "The presidents brother, Marvin Bush, was board of directors for Securacom."

Wow, he was the entire board of directors, that is impressive.

And the $167 billion in gold is down to less than $1 billion. The Loose Change boys stole $166 billion in gold!!

[Brainster]

On Sept. 11, it did not seem to be working well to Battalion Chiefs Joseph Pfeifer and Orio Palmer, two of the first chiefs to respond. They tested their radios but could not hear each other, an effort that was recorded by the repeater tape.

In the time that I've been digging into this stuff, this issue and the air quality issues post 9-11 are the only ones that I haven't seen turn into mush once you investigate them. But of course the coverup here is similar to the one exposed in the current Vanity Fair--of ordinary mistakes and confusion, not some vast plot by the government to goad us into war.

Regarding the CIA/OSS, yes, we recruited a lot of former Nazis, because the assumption in the minds of many was that we might be back in war with our former allies the Soviets in a short period of time, and guess who had the best intelligence and contacts on Mr Stalin and his friends. We also grabbed up the best scientists--Werner von Braun for example. Everybody knew he had designed the V2 rockets which so terrorized Britain during the war.

[smother]

Welcome to the forum, Smother.

Do you have a reference for that 100,000 sold claim? I'd be shocked if that were true, considering that it's available for free.

Yes. I actually do. It was on german TV channel ZDF. However, I'm not able to post links here.

www zdf de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/30/0,4070,3968318-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Put dots between www and zdf and zdf and de.

If you like I can give you a brief translation (I have a little knowledge of german)

[Brainster]

What are they good for?

Uh, you know, firsthand evidence from people on the scene? The stuff you found compelling when it came to how they could knock down the fire with two lines?

If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?


What does a poll have to do with it? 38% of the people believe that the government is hiding the existence of intelligent beings from another planet. If you can convince the right people--like maybe a congressman or 218, then you can do something. If you really think that a mob in the streets is going to rise up and grab George Bush from the White House and tear him to pieces then you are sadly mistaken; they will be shot coming over the fence and I would applaud the Secret Service for doing it. We have three methods (short of natural death/incapacitation) of getting rid of a president that are legitimate: Impeachment, General Election, and Term Limits.

For some reason I believe some of you may think I was trying to impress or convince you of something different than you already believed.

For the most part I have just been questioning myself.

I have a hard time reconciling the last two paragraphs with the one above. Let's play a little game here. Suppose--just suppose--that you're really on the fence. Then what would you suggest "We the people" do if a poll came out showing 50% thought Bush did it? I'd hope you'd be suggesting that we not do anything hasty, because after all, you've just been questioning yourself?

[Brainster]

Yes. I actually do. It was on german TV channel ZDF. However, I'm not able to post links here.

www zdf de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/30/0,4070,3968318-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Put dots between www and zdf and zdf and de.

If you like I can give you a brief translation (I have a little knowledge of german)

As I've said before, they may have sold licenses, 50-pack spindles, etc. And I suspect they're still inflating it quite a bit when they talk about it. Charles Goyette (antiwar, libertarian talk show host) was interviewing Jason Bermas the other day and Goyette claimed that 100 million people had seen it, which is of course nutty.

But you know how it is--buzz breeds buzz breeds sales.

[Gravy]

Yes. I actually do. It was on german TV channel ZDF. However, I'm not able to post links here.

www zdf de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/30/0,4070,3968318-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Put dots between www and zdf and zdf and de.

If you like I can give you a brief translation (I have a little knowledge of german)
Thanks. I don't believe that figure at all. I'd be very surprised if they've sold a tenth of that amount, even considering their offer of $3 "bare" copies for bulk sales .

[Gravy]

As I've said before, they may have sold licenses, 50-pack spindles, etc. And I suspect they're still inflating it quite a bit when they talk about it. Charles Goyette (antiwar, libertarian talk show host) was interviewing Jason Bermas the other day and Goyette claimed that 100 million people had seen it, which is of course nutty.

But you know how it is--buzz breeds buzz breeds sales.
Yeah, and Avery believes that "pretty much everyone" in the entertainment industry has seen it.

[smother]

One of the most obscure moments in Loose Change is when they try to compare the Pentagon damages with the damages done by a Tomahawk cruise missile to the house of Milosevic. And then Dylan narrates: "See any similarities?"

My answer: No. None at all. The house of Milosevic hasn't a single burn mark on it - only an entrance hole.

Later the incoherence reaches new levels (this is a direct quote from the movie - there are no pauses in the quote). It is about the reason for the WTC 7 collapse

Official explanation: falling debris from the twin towers created an internal fire that ignited several fuel tanks inside the building. If this is true then it would be the third steel framed building in history to collapse from a fire. The first two would be the twin towers
Huh? He just said that "falling debris from the twin towers" hit WTC7. So it did not collapse from a fire. It collapsed from a fire AND falling debris. Furthermore, it is an outright LIE that no steel framed building prior to WTC collapsed from a fire. I cannot believe the nerve of those kids.

EDIT: due to bad spelling and grammar (sorry guys - English is not my first language, so expect more of this in the future)

[gumboot]

In regards to the FDNY radio transmissions...

This is something I've looked into a fair bit. IIRC, when Chief Pfeifer arrived at the North Tower (he witnessed AA11 hitting the tower and called in the first three alarms) the repeater system appeared not to work. From memory, it was concluded later that it had simply been overloaded by the mass of traffic.

In any event, Pfeifer made the split-second sort of decision that people have to make in these sorts of situations. They chose to go with the hand-held walkie talkies.

At that moment they didn't know the building would collapse around them. It would be a decision that would cost the lives of hundreds of firemen - including Pfeifer's own brother. My heart aches when I consider how he must feel (especially in the post mortum of the operation where the investigators laid the key decision at his feet).

As such many firemen in the North Tower could not be contacted. In the hour before the North Tower collapsed there were six FDNY radio communications indicating imminent building collapse. At the same time the NYPD helicopter was reporting critical information about the structure's imminent failure, but again because of communication problems, the firemen in the building would never be told.

Over three hundred firemen and police officers headed into that inferno, heedless of their own risk, determined to rescue civilians. And because of poor equipment, they never came out.

Now, Submersible, I would LOVE to hear how you think this tragedy is evidence of a government operation?

Also, for the sake of accuracy, I'd like to add that the "a fire chief" on the 78th Floor was none other than Chief Palmer. His radio report runs like so:

... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones.

"10-45 Code One" is the FDNY radio code for a fatality. This call was placed at 0952 - 49 minutes after UA175 hit the tower. Seven minutes later the tower collapsed.

It should be pointed out that the 78th floor was the Sky Lobby, and at the moment that UA175 hit the South Tower, it was full of people evacuating the building. An estimate of between 50 and 200 people were killed instantly when the left wing ripped through the floor spilling a fireball of jet fuel and turning the marble wall panels, elevator floors, and pieces of aircraft in shrapnel.

I would imagine, being a sky lobby, there wasn't much burnable office furniture on the 78th floor, so once that jet fuel was burned out, there would be nothing left to burn.

Even so, when Palmer reached the sky lobby the scene before his eyes must have resembled a slaughter house.

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Great points, gumboot. I hadn't realized that the 78th was a sky lobby. Having been in that lobby, I can attest that there wan't a great amount of flammable material there. Lots of stone, glass, stainless steel, etc.

[Blackadder_no]

Well, I watched as much of the recut as I could bear (10 minutes or so), and I must say, he keeps hitting new lows when it comes to bad taste. Particularly that totally out-of-place music when people are running from the dust clouds, and the comments about the Helios crash; "...engines, bodies. Catch my drift?" I had to stop watching there for fear of hurting my computer.

And still, nothing even remotely revolutionary. I am reminded of a quote from "Prisoner of Azkaban":
"Brilliant, Snape - once again you've put your keen and penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion.

[gumboot]

Great points, gumboot. I hadn't realized that the 78th was a sky lobby. Having been in that lobby, I can attest that there wan't a great amount of flammable material there. Lots of stone, glass, stainless steel, etc.

Cool. I was pretty confident one of you guys would have been to that spot and would be familiar with it.

And thanks for your kind words earlier. I owe a great deal of my knowledge to the work you and MarkyX have done in particular! It's pretty easy to soak up the facts when you guys have done all the hard yards.

-Andrew

ETA. I probably just missed it, but is there a link to the new version of LC?

[Big Les]

Guys, can anyone that can be bothered (and I completely understand if you can't) please cast an eye over this thread on another forum (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=817734#post817734) and let me know if I'm missing any obvious counterarguments?

I'm Jonathan S. Ferguson on there, and although I seem to have several moderators on my "side", none of us are as experienced in shooting down (pun intended) CTs as you guys.

PS - I'm not a sword-wielding maniac (not that the other posters there are); I work in the heritage sector!

[gumboot]

Guys, can anyone that can be bothered (and I completely understand if you can't) please cast an eye over this thread on another forum (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=817734#post817734) and let me know if I'm missing any obvious counterarguments?

I'm Jonathan S. Ferguson on there, and although I seem to have several moderators on my "side", none of us are as experienced in shooting down (pun intended) CTs as you guys.

PS - I'm not a sword-wielding maniac (not that the other posters there are); I work in the heritage sector!

Greetings.

You seem to have managed very well on your own. :)

I would only add a few things. One, my a professional point of view, is the shots of the Pentagon lawn are taken at an extreme distance on a very long lens.

Long lenses "compact" the Z axis, producing an effect called "foreshortening". In laymans terms, it becomes difficult to judge how far away objects in the frame are.

Obviously, as closer objects appear larger, this also means a sense of scale can be very deceiving - unless you're looking at objects you're very familiar with such as people.

The end result on the Pentagon pictures is the grass lawn appears to be directly in front of the building, however there's actually considerable distance between the edge of the foam area and the building itself.

Now on to my non-professional opinion:

In high speed collisions, the small componants that make up a large object like an aircraft take on the same properties as particles of water. When the aircraft punches a hole in the building, much of the wreckage "flows" through the hole.

Their photos are all outside the lawn. One would not expect significant amounts of debris, because most of it would be INSIDE the building.

Of course there is ample debris outside to prove the existence of the aircraft on the lawn anyway...

Hope that helps, from one sword lover to another.

-Andrew

[Big Les]

It does, thank you. I'll incorporate your comments if that's OK.

I think just about every forum on the web has some sort of "lok @ this vid, maks u think, dunnit?" type thread. It's like starting from square one when you've been hanging out here!

[gumboot]

It does, thank you. I'll incorporate your comments if that's OK.

Please do. :)

-Andrew

[Big Les]

Please do. :)

-Andrew

Done! Partly paraphrased, part quoted anonymously. Quite timely it was too. Thanks again for your help. It's interesting how defensive that last guy has got over questions over his credentials. If he's posting unsubstantiated claims, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask on what basis he makes them. I see "basis" as either links to legitimate sources, a reasoned and logical argument, or at least some proof that he is speaking from an engineering, photo-interp, or related background.

[chipmunk stew]

Article about previous buildings collapsing due to fire (http://www.fpemag.com/archives/article.asp?issue_id=27&i=153)

Any thoughts??
Interesting. Here's the full NIST report:
http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire02/art028.html
This report was completed in 2002, so it doesn't include the Windsor tower in Madrid (2005).

It won't convince a hardcore Denier, since none of the other steel-structure building fires led to a global collapse. But it destroys the idea that it's impossible for ordinary office fires to warp steel and cause massive damage.

[60hzxtl]

Great points, gumboot. I hadn't realized that the 78th was a sky lobby. Having been in that lobby, I can attest that there wan't a great amount of flammable material there. Lots of stone, glass, stainless steel, etc.

Both the 44th Fl and the 78th were sky lobbies. A floor full of elevator banks to change to a higher floor. Not unlike an express train station - when I worked on the 74th floor of the North Tower I would change at 44 - there was a bar there, called the Sky Dive, and no major offices. 78 was the lobby to the prestige offices, lots of marble, some artwork, an information receptionist - no bar. It could take you 10 minutes of commuting and elevator changing within the building from the lobby to your desk.

I point this out because the CT crowd who sit anywhere else in the world, who were never there, and have still never been there, have no clue as to the size and scope of the WTC, when they pull out the "fell in footprint" "fires almost out" and "caused a building across the street to fall down".

The fires were still smoldering in DECEMBER, and you already heard crackpot stuff about "those are the bodies burning" from the morbid tourists. If the CT crowd had thier way they would still be picking up one girder at a time and saying "yep, look at that, I've never seen anything like that before! Common sense says <fill in goofy idea in the blank> yep put it in the pile. . "

[Belz...]

According to the Port Authority tapes this fireman was on the floor where the plane entered the building. For some reason his voice and his request for help overrule the NIST work.

Interesting. Do you deny the pictures that clearly show fires raging on pretty much all the floors above the impact point (see image below) ?

Just like I'm a big fan of the images that have been offered from all angles of this spectrum compared to the massive amount of bovine excrement offered in writing by the so called "experts".

Structural engineers are "so-called" experts ?

Because 'they' haven't touched us since, and our military has been tromping wide open through their women children and homeland not long after FEMA got finished recycling all of the incriminating evidence against them.

Well, I for one am happy that "they" haven't touched us since. But I don't see how the fact that they didn't proves that they didn't on 9/11.

[Belz...]

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

I do believe it was on fire, Sub:

[gumboot]

Article about previous buildings collapsing due to fire (http://www.fpemag.com/archives/article.asp?issue_id=27&i=153)

Any thoughts??


Interesting find. I find one thing really interesting, it doesn't appear to mention the Kader Toy Factory Fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Toy_Factory) - an example of 3 4-storey steel-frame buildings that suffered global collapsed within 15 minutes of being engulfed with flames.

There is an excellent case study on the fire here (http://www.ilo.org/encyclopedia/?doc&nd=857100058&nh=0&ssect=0).

This is an important one to compare to the WTC because the steel had not been coated in fire-proofing. What began as a very small localised fire ultimately claimed three entire buildings and 188 lives (the worst accidental industrial fire in modern history).

It's not one where we have to dandy around with "all the steel bits collapsed" this entire thing just utterly collapsed in no time (I think the second building stood a total of 15 minutes).

-Andrew

[Cuddles]

Because 'they' haven't touched us since, and our military has been tromping wide open through their women children and homeland not long after FEMA got finished recycling all of the incriminating evidence against them.

Not heard of the London bombings then? Or the recent liquid explosive plot? Or the people getting shot every day in Iraq and Afganistan?

[Gravy]

Guys, can anyone that can be bothered (and I completely understand if you can't) please cast an eye over this thread on another forum (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=817734#post817734) and let me know if I'm missing any obvious counterarguments?

I'm Jonathan S. Ferguson on there, and although I seem to have several moderators on my "side", none of us are as experienced in shooting down (pun intended) CTs as you guys.

PS - I'm not a sword-wielding maniac (not that the other posters there are); I work in the heritage sector!

Les, in addition to your good comments and those of gumboot, I would refer them to Hal Bidlack's comments this week in this thread: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1849603&postcount=1 He was there, and it's important to remember that these events did, and do, affect real people.

Following is a recent email I sent about Pentagon issues. Note the links to photos of a huge amount of debris on the lawn in the second paragraph: the post you responded to specifically said there was none. Feel free to use this all or in part.

*****

It sounds like you're relying on CT sites that tell you the damage made by the impact amounted to a single 16-foot hole. That is completely wrong. The hole extends along the wing line left, and especially, right, of the fuselage hole. It is not a cookie-cutter hole: that simply cannot happen with a reinforced concrete building. Note in the following picture the total destruction of masonry and the reinforced columns broken and bent in the direction of impact (the plane came in from the right of the picture): http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044ca9183f1f5c.jpg

Here's a higher-resolution version of that photo without the graphic overlay: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/6.jpg

No debris on the lawn? That couldn't be less true. Many people who make this claim show a photos of the lawn far to the right of the heliport. Flight 77 entered the scene from the far right, and most of the debris that was ejected outward went to the left, covering the heliport and the lawn to the left of the impact point.
Why don't CTs show these photos?
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e5acd97bcc7.jpg
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e5acd9b75a6.jpg
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e5acd9e4fea.jpg[
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e5ad1fb1eb4.jpg
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e5add2ebf1b.jpg

Just released are the flight 77 Flight path analysis, which contains detailed information. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf

And the Air Traffic Control transcripts were also released: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc06.pdf

Summary of Flight 77 depicting: the identity of pilots and flight attendants, seat assignments of passengers, and telephone calls from the flight
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200054.html

Of course, for anyone interested in the damage to the Pentagon, the ASCE's Pentagon Building Performance Report is essential reading: http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf

From page 35: "The width of the severe damage to the west facade of the Pentagon was approximately 120 ft (from column lines 8 to 20).

More 757 debris? There are hundreds of photos and several videos showing a huge assortment of debris. Here is a montage with a small sampling: http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044ca98bc1035d.jpg

Many debris photos at 911myths.com http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html

And how about the dozens of eyewitnesses accounts of the crash? For your claim to be true, all of theirs must be false.

http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html
http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoud.../witnesses.htm

Notice that many of those witnesses specifically mention seeing a huge American Airlines jet hit the Pentagon.

How about the account of the C-130 pilot who saw both the flight 77 attack and the aftermath of flight 93? Lying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCVRkAkC8n4&search=Shanksville

Photos from witness Steve Riskus, seconds after the crash (he gives his contact info, but be nice: he gets a lot of email): http://www.criticalthrash.com/terror.html

Next, you need to remember that the remains of every flight 77 victim but one (a two-year-old) was recovered and positively identified by forensics experts. Personal effects of many survived the crash and fires and were returned to the victims' families.

Articles on Pentagon disaster morgue operations and victim identification:
http://ndms.chepinc.org/data/files/3/266.pdf and http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6_48/national_news/12279-1.html

Memorial photos of the victims: http://www.animaladvocacy.net/911memorial.html

Phone calls from flight 77, from the 9/11 Commission Report: http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm

At 9:12, Renee May called her mother, Nancy May, in Las Vegas. She said her flight was being hijacked by six individuals who had moved them to the rear of the plane. She asked her mother to alert American Airlines. Nancy May and her husband promptly did so.

At some point between 9:16 and 9:26, Barbara Olson called her husband, Ted Olson, the solicitor general of the United States. She reported that the flight had been hijacked, and the hijackers had knives and box cutters. She further indicated that the hijackers were not aware of her phone call, and that they had put all the passengers in the back of the plane. About a minute into the conversation, the call was cut off. Solicitor General Olson tried unsuccessfully to reach Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Shortly after the first call, Barbara Olson reached her husband again. She reported that the pilot had announced that the flight had been hijacked, and she asked her husband what she should tell the captain to do. Ted Olson asked for her location and she replied that the aircraft was then flying over houses. Another passenger told her they were traveling northeast. The Solicitor General then informed his wife of the two previous hijackings and crashes. She did not display signs of panic and did not indicate any awareness of an impending crash. At that point, the second call was cut off.

And how about the hundreds of first responders and investigators who were on the scene the first day? It's absurd to suggest that they were all deceived or are part of a coverup.

the Pentagon security staff
the DOD Honor Guard
the Pentagon Medical Unit,
the Pentagon 3-person Crash Response Team
the Pentagon Defense Protective Service,
Four U.S. Army Chaplains
One Catholic Priest (Stephen McGraw)
the Arlington County Fire Department,
the Arlington County Sheriff's Department,
Arlington County Emergency Medical Services
the Arlington, VA Police Department,
Fairfax County Fire & Rescue,
Montgomery County Fire & Rescue,
Alexandria, VA Fire & Rescue
District of Columbia Fire & Rescue
the Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit
the Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team
the Fort Myer Fire Department,
the Arlington County SWAT Team,
the Virginia State Police,
the FBI's Evidence Recovery Teams,
the National Transportation Safety Board Investigators
American Airlines representatives
the HHS National Medical Response Team,
the FBI Hazmat Team,
the EPA Hazmat Team,
the FEMA Incident Support Team,
the FEMA Emergency Response Team,
the FEMA Disaster Field Office.
the FEMA Virginia-1, Virginia-2, Maryland-1 and Tennessee-1 Task Forces
the US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach, Fairfax County and Montgomery County,
the National Naval Medical Center CCRF
Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams,
the Virginia Department of Emergency Management
the U.S. Army 54th Quartermaster Company Mortuary Staff
the U.S. Army 311th Quartermaster Company Mortuary Staff
the U.S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
the American Red Cross,
the United States Secret Service,
the C-130H crew

Have you attempted to contact any of the 8,000 people who were on the scene after the crash? If you still have doubts, please do so.

As for the question, "Where are all those Pentagon video cameras?" the answer is that the Pentagon uses live security – human beings –*for its perimeter security. Here's a post on the BAUT forum from a Pentagon employee who was there on 9/11. http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=746514&postcount=173 An excerpt:"Why isn't there more video? Without telling too much of what I know of Pentagon security, you would be suprised how few cameras there are outside the building. Humans actively patrolling a building's perimeter are a tad more effective than dozens of monitors which may or may not be watched at any given moment."

A brief look at the ridiculous "A missile hit the Pentagon" theory

1) No missile was seen by anyone
2) No missile debris was found
3) Missiles do not carry thousands of gallons of jet fuel
4) Missiles do not carry the remains of flight 77 passengers
5) Missiles do not carry tons of 757 debris
6) In the photo below, the yellow dots indicate the broken light poles. The red line indicates the path a missile would have to take in order to knock them over. Or, the missile would have to have a wingspan of over 100 feet. http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044caa801aabf4.jpg

An examination of numerous Pentagon/flight 77 questions at 9/11myths.com http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon.html

A detailed examination of the Jet engine pieces found at the Pentagon http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

A Boeing 757 struck the Pentagon: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single.php?post=816414

[apathoid]

Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while. The 9/11 Commission report says that flight 77 hit the Pentagon at 530 mph (460 knots).

Somewhere along the way, information began spreading that the FDR showed the speed as 345 mph, although I've never seen the FDR transcript, and I haven't found the source of that info.

But according to the recently released flight path info, which is based on the FDR readings and radar data, flight 77 did hit the Pentagon at approximately 530 mph.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc02.pdf

Does anyone know where the figure of 345 came from? Anyone know if the FDR transcript has been released? And perhaps the speed is "approximately" 530 because that part of the data was unrecoverable?

Gravy, I think the 345 mph fallacy started here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34412,00.html

According to data on the recorder, the plane was going 345 miles per hour when it crashed at about 9:30 Tuesday morning

I think its possible(actually I'd bet a paycheck on it) that the Fox reporter didnt know what the investigator was talking about and misinterpereted what he was hearing. Maybe at 0930, AA 77 was doing 345 kts because it this time, it was at 7,000' 38 miles away still.

[JamesB]

One of the most obscure moments in Loose Change is when they try to compare the Pentagon damages with the damages done by a Tomahawk cruise missile to the house of Milosevic. And then Dylan narrates: "See any similarities?"

My answer: No. None at all. The house of Milosevic hasn't a single burn mark on it - only an entrance hole.

Later the incoherence reaches new levels (this is a direct quote from the movie - there are no pauses in the quote). It is about the reason for the WTC 7 collapse


Huh? He just said that "falling debris from the twin towers" hit WTC7. So it did not collapse from a fire. It collapsed from a fire AND falling debris. Furthermore, it is an outright LIE that no steel framed building prior to WTC collapsed from a fire. I cannot believe the nerve of those kids.

EDIT: due to bad spelling and grammar (sorry guys - English is not my first language, so expect more of this in the future)


That and the plane cut a path of destruction 310 feet through the Pentagon. The cruise missile that hit Milosevic did not, explode, go through the building, continue another 100 meters and explode again.

In the original version 2 they talk about a cruise missile attack against the Pentagon, while showing video of a shoulder launched anti-tank missile. In this version they show what appears to be a the Harpoon anti-ship missile. Well, they are closer at least, they will get it right someday...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Gravy, I think the 345 mph fallacy started here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34412,00.html



I think its possible(actually I'd bet a paycheck on it) that the Fox reporter didnt know what the investigator was talking about and misinterpereted what he was hearing. Maybe at 0930, AA 77 was doing 345 kts because it this time, it was at 7,000' 38 miles away still.

Possible, but 345 kts comes out to ~397 mph.

[Matthew Best]

That's as may be, but this is Fox News we're talking about.

[kevin]

Possible, but 345 kts comes out to ~397 mph.

You expect Fox News to be able to convert knots to mph? Besides it was 38 miles still. I thought the flight data released showed it accelerated as it approached, so the striking speed would've been higher.

[realitybites]

(sorry guys - English is not my first language, so expect more of this in the future)

Welcome to the forum Smother. If you haven't already and you're feeling chuffed today, head on over to the LC forums (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?act=idx), look for a thread in which JohnDoe has posted (shouldn't be hard), and lay down a couple of the points you've brought up here.

I'm curious to see how long it takes for him to ask "Are you American?", and then ban you for being a foreigner who's attempting to silence him from questioning his own government.

He's silly that way.

[apathoid]

Possible, but 345 kts comes out to ~397 mph.

Actually, depends on whether the FDR is recording True Airspeed, Grounspeed(TAS with wind), or Indicated Airspeed. At 7000', 345 kts IAS, becomes 393 kts TAS, which is 456 mph, assuming no wind. I cant expect Fox News to get all this right as kevin said.

From reports I've read, AA77 was doing around 400 mph(kts?) as Hani disconnected the autopilot at 7000'. If AA77 struck at 345 mph, or 297 kts, she was at flight idle with spoilers deployed. The 757 is a slick airplane and really cant decel while descending unless the engines are idled and lift dumping devices(spoilers) deployed.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Actually, depends on whether the FDR is recording True Airspeed, Grounspeed(TAS with wind), or Indicated Airspeed. At 7000', 345 kts IAS, becomes 393 kts TAS, which is 456 mph, assuming no wind. I cant expect Fox News to get all this right as kevin said.

From reports I've read, AA77 was doing around 400 mph(kts?) as Hani disconnected the autopilot at 7000'. If AA77 struck at 345 mph, or 297 kts, she was at flight idle with spoilers deployed. The 757 is a slick airplane and really cant decel while descending unless the engines are idled and lift dumping devices(spoilers) deployed.

Ah, thanks much for the edification. :)

[Obviousman]

Yeah,but you're wrong and I'm right.

A friend of a friend of someone who knows a guy who worked in a shop where he met a guy who said that 9/11 was a fake.

That's good enough for me!

:eek:

[DavidJames]

More fun at LC...http://www.snakesonaplane.com/


Thats the same signal as the Red Cross, but originally a symbol of the Illuminati.... Yep.

They don't hide anything from us, it's all in plain view. It's part of the ritual, you have to let your victims know what you're doing to them.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

More fun at LC...

A nice explanation you could pass along to them, http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html , not that they will listen.

[DavidJames]

A nice explanation you could pass along to them, http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html , not that they will listen.Would if I could, but I hold active memberships in the Illuminati and NWO and therefore banned from contaminating the "trooth" at LC.

[apathoid]

More fun at LC...

That must be JohnD'oh. He's the one that claims the NWO made Denver International resemble a swastika, clearly forgetting the small fact that the Neo-Nazis are on his team..

[DavidJames]

That must be JohnD'oh. He's the one that claims the NWO made Denver International resemble a swastika, clearly forgetting the small fact that the Neo-Nazis are on his team..No, not JDX, a couple known as Imani T Misfit & specimen0420.

I live in CO and have read his nutty comments about DIA - he's a first class loon.

[Darth Rotor]

You expect Fox News to be able to convert knots to mph? Besides it was 38 miles still. I thought the flight data released showed it accelerated as it approached, so the striking speed would've been higher.
The FDR showed the throttles advancing to full power a bit less than a minute before impact. At the (roughly) 5 degree "dive" or "approach" angle I calcultated in another post (with John somebody) from the plot (2000 feet descent to impact in roughly 4 nm from the end of the 360 degree turn) and in a clean configuration, I don't know if a 757 would accelerate to 430 knot or 460 knots in a minute (I'd have to ask a 757 pilot) but it would still be accelerating at impact. I don't have a fine enough resolution on the graph from the NTSB release to do a modest time distance guess. I also don't know if during the original descent from 7500 feet the pilot wasn't accelerating during the turn, or descending at constant airspeed (which is the normal way to descend and airliner when you aren't trying to use it as a missile.)

The initial speed estimates may have been based on a gear down configuration, which considerably increases drag and reduces max speed.

One could estimate pretty closely based on film footage that was time tagged in tenths of seconds, and expert displacement measuring, but I don't know if that was done, or if such film exists.

At impact, the critical dimension is groundspeed, speed relative to the ground/fixed building's frame of reference, not airspeed.

DR

[jhunter1163]

David, do you mean that the Troofers are implying that there were mother(rule8)ing snakes on those mother(rule8)ing planes on 9/11?

If so, that's a new low even for them.

[apathoid]

The FDR showed the throttles advancing to full power a bit less than a minute before impact. At the (roughly) 5 degree "dive" or "approach" angle I calcultated in another post (with John somebody) from the plot (2000 feet descent to impact in roughly 4 nm from the end of the 360 degree turn) and in a clean configuration, I don't know if a 757 would accelerate to 430 knot or 460 knots in a minute (I'd have to ask a 757 pilot) but it would still be accelerating at impact. I don't have a fine enough resolution on the graph from the NTSB release to do a modest time distance guess. I also don't know if during the original descent from 7500 feet the pilot wasn't accelerating during the turn, or descending at constant airspeed (which is the normal way to descend and airliner when you aren't trying to use it as a missile.)

The initial speed estimates may have been based on a gear down configuration, which considerably increases drag and reduces max speed.

One could estimate pretty closely based on film footage that was time tagged in tenths of seconds, and expert displacement measuring, but I don't know if that was done, or if such film exists.

At impact, the critical dimension is groundspeed, speed relative to the ground/fixed building's frame of reference, not airspeed.

DR

Good points DarkRotor. Dont forget that the airplane was full of fuel, meaning it would accel faster in a descent. I think its perfectly reasonable to expect a 757 to accelerate from 430 kts to 460 kts in a descent at around 2000 fpm, even at idle.

I've talked to pilots about VNAV(autopilot speed/alt mode) disconnects because the airplane simply couldnt slow to meet the VNAV constraint even at flight idle.

[jhunter1163]

And no disrespect is intended to the victims of 9/11.

I lost a very good friend that day.. spoke to her nearly every day for a year and a half on the phone, though we never met in person. When the going got tough and I needed to call the home office, she was there, with a smile and a kind word to keep me going in the midst of the madness. She was just 23, had a nice husband and a baby girl, and her whole life in front of her.

CTists get numbed to that number, 2,739, but they were people, every one of them, with lives and families and friends. I know that many of the posters here were touched in the same way by this national tragedy, and with far more wrenching stories than mine. So, as has been said before but can't be reiterated too often, let's never lose sight of what happened that day, and who our REAL enemies are.

[realitybites]

David, do you mean that the Troofers are implying that there were mother(rule8)ing snakes on those mother(rule8)ing planes on 9/11?

If so, that's a new low even for them.
The snakes (much like the phone calls) were faked.

[pgwenthold]

Good points DarkRotor. Dont forget that the airplane was full of fuel, meaning it would accel faster in a descent.

Why is that?

[DavidJames]

David, do you mean that the Troofers are implying that there were mother(rule8)ing snakes on those mother(rule8)ing planes on 9/11?

If so, that's a new low even for them.:) No, I don't believe they are implying that. It's more like they see everyone except themselves as part of the conspiracy.

[Gravy]

Why is that?
Heavier.

[Gravy]

Good points DarkRotor. Dont forget that the airplane was full of fuel, meaning it would accel faster in a descent. I think its perfectly reasonable to expect a 757 to accelerate from 430 kts to 460 kts in a descent at around 2000 fpm, even at idle.
And for the last 30 seconds he was at nearly full-throttle, according to the recently-released report.

[rwguinn]

Heavier.
a 10 pound ball and a 5 pound ball dropped from the same height will have the same speed at impact.
And a 10000 lb fuel load requires more acceleration to increase its speed than a 5000 lb fuel load.
Gravity alone won't do it.

[Gravy]

a 10 pound ball and a 5 pound ball dropped from the same height will have the same speed at impact.
And a 10000 lb fuel load requires more acceleration to increase its speed than a 5000 lb fuel load.
Gravity alone won't do it.
Ah, but what if they had wings?

[Cuddles]

a 10 pound ball and a 5 pound ball dropped from the same height will have the same speed at impact.
And a 10000 lb fuel load requires more acceleration to increase its speed than a 5000 lb fuel load.
Gravity alone won't do it.

A 10000lb aircraft will have the same air resistance as a 5000lb aircraft but a larger force from gravity, therefore it will accelerate faster.

[apathoid]

And for the last 30 seconds he was at nearly full-throttle, according to the recently-released report.

I saw that. I think the airplane was likely doing 345 kts at 7000', decending on down to 2000' increased its speed to 400 kts or more, at that points Hani firewalling the throttles, still in a descent, increased its speed to 460. The last 4 miles he descended the remaining 2000'. Thats a fairly steep descent, over -4000 fpm, I'm a little suprised he wasnt going quite a bit faster than 460..
I wish they'd go ahead release the FDR plots now that the trials over.

[rwguinn]

A 10000lb aircraft will have the same air resistance as a 5000lb aircraft but a larger force from gravity, therefore it will accelerate faster.


I bow to your superioror knowledge.
I surrender my Engineering degree, 40 years of physics study, Professional license, and 350 years of physical science accumilation since Gallileo to your hands.

[R.Mackey]

Peace, you guys. The fully-fueled aircraft will have a higher terminal velocity, as being denser increases its effective ballistic coefficient.

But it is also correct to say that the lighter aircraft will accelerate quicker in response to thrust of engines being spooled up.

It's hard to guess, off the top of one's head, which will hit faster. It will depend on airspeed and whether inertia or drag is dominant. At high speed, drag is dominant. At steady-state (diving), the fully-loaded plane will have a higher top speed, but it might take longer to get there. Flat and level, top speeds will be the same.*

I wouldn't expect the difference to be much, in any event.

*: More or less. L / D = T / W and all that. Wing efficiency becomes a factor...

[rwguinn]

Peace, you guys. The fully-fueled aircraft will have a higher terminal velocity, as being denser increases its effective ballistic coefficient.

But it is also correct to say that the lighter aircraft will accelerate quicker in response to thrust of engines being spooled up.

It's hard to guess, off the top of one's head, which will hit faster. It will depend on airspeed and whether inertia or drag is dominant. At high speed, drag is dominant. At steady-state (diving), the fully-loaded plane will have a higher top speed, but it might take longer to get there. Flat and level, top speeds will be the same.*

I wouldn't expect the difference to be much, in any event.

*: More or less. L / D = T / W and all that. Wing efficiency becomes a factor...

I totally agree with that. I disagree with Cuddles statements, which are mathematically and physically false.

[gumboot]

I bow to your superioror knowledge.
I surrender my Engineering degree, 40 years of physics study, Professional license, and 350 years of physical science accumilation since Gallileo to your hands.

The descent of the aircraft is not determined by gravity because an aircraft is not in free-fall. You must consider aerodynamics.

To maintain altitude, an aircraft must generate enough lift to maintain the aircraft's weight in the air. The lighter the aircraft, the less lift is required - hence why a 747 needs a long runway and a high rotate speed, whereas a Cessna 172, for example, requires a much shorter runway and lower rotate speed.

A fully laden aircraft requires more lift than one with little fuel on board. As such, given a full and an empty aircraft, both in the same attitude at the same thrust level, the heavier aircraft will descend faster - because the shortfall in required lift will be greater.

-Andrew

[negativ]

I'm sorta starting to be able to laugh at the LC people. Mostly though, they still only make me angry.

Luckily, though, my church has some resources I've found theraputic, one of which is this sound clip (http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/ears/soundz/01HOLE/CONSMELL.wav).

[CurtC]

I also wouldn't expect much difference due to the fuel load. The heavier weight would help get over some of the air drag, but it would also be harder for the engines to accelerate.

A data point: at full throttle, a fully-loaded airliner accelerates from zero to takeoff speed (what, 150 kts?) in about 40 seconds. This is going on level ground, without the benefit of a descent, and there is some increased resistance due to rolling tires, and the wind drag of the gear and flaps. In a clean configuration, in a descent, at full throttle, I would expect it to accelerate at a similar rate.

[apathoid]

Peace, you guys. The fully-fueled aircraft will have a higher terminal velocity, as being denser increases its effective ballistic coefficient.

But it is also correct to say that the lighter aircraft will accelerate quicker in response to thrust of engines being spooled up.

It's hard to guess, off the top of one's head, which will hit faster. It will depend on airspeed and whether inertia or drag is dominant. At high speed, drag is dominant. At steady-state (diving), the fully-loaded plane will have a higher top speed, but it might take longer to get there. Flat and level, top speeds will be the same.*

I wouldn't expect the difference to be much, in any event.

*: More or less. L / D = T / W and all that. Wing efficiency becomes a factor...

Yeah, when I brought this up, I was strictly speaking from my experience talking to 767/757 pilots about VNAV autopilot overspeed disconnects, which typically happen when a fully loaded aircraft is descending and simply cannot slow down or even maintain speed.
With a level attitude, I'd imagine the fully loaded airplane will need more thrust to maintain speed and this certainly is this case when climbing. A fully loaded plane airplane can't climb or accel nearly as fast as as empty one.

[rwguinn]

The descent of the aircraft is not determined by gravity because an aircraft is not in free-fall. You must consider aerodynamics.

To maintain altitude, an aircraft must generate enough lift to maintain the aircraft's weight in the air. The lighter the aircraft, the less lift is required - hence why a 747 needs a long runway and a high rotate speed, whereas a Cessna 172, for example, requires a much shorter runway and lower rotate speed.

A fully laden aircraft requires more lift than one with little fuel on board. As such, given a full and an empty aircraft, both in the same attitude at the same thrust level, the heavier aircraft will descend faster - because the shortfall in required lift will be greater.

-Andrew

Again, no problem.
That was NOT what was originally said.

Originally Posted by apathoid http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1855422#post1855422)
Good points DarkRotor. Dont forget that the airplane was full of fuel, meaning it would accel faster in a descent.
and from cuddles

A 10000lb aircraft will have the same air resistance as a 5000lb aircraft but a larger force from gravity, therefore it will accelerate faster.

[apathoid]

I also wouldn't expect much difference due to the fuel load. The heavier weight would help get over some of the air drag, but it would also be harder for the engines to accelerate.

A data point: at full throttle, a fully-loaded airliner accelerates from zero to takeoff speed (what, 150 kts?) in about 40 seconds. This is going on level ground, without the benefit of a descent, and there is some increased resistance due to rolling tires, and the wind drag of the gear and flaps. In a clean configuration, in a descent, at full throttle, I would expect it to accelerate at a similar rate.

All very true. But desending, the fully loaded airplane's extra weight(not drag) speeds it up at any given descent rate. The opposite is true for a climb..

[60hzxtl]

Look! Its our hero Do Over Dylan the cartoon character, with his buddies, and the Clenched Fist Salute!

(Uh, does it matter which fist?)

Those signs in the background are just ripe for monkeying with - maybe there will be alternate ones at GZ:

Ask stupid questions of unqualified people. Obfuscate for Peace. No Justice! No Pizza!

http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/

Oh, and by the way, big sale on T-Shirts - marked down 2 Bucks!

Honor the Fallen!

[Abbyas]

Clenched Fist Salute!

One tin soldier rides aloooooone.

Good lord, they imply that Firefighters are complicit in the cover up of the attacks, especially those that knew that WTC7 was going to fall, and they don't expect hubbub? Do they really see themselves as some sort of Malcom X?

Do these guys even have a permit to march?

[pgwenthold]

Heavier.

Are you suggesting that things that are heavier fall faster?

[Hellbound]

Are you suggesting that things that are heavier fall faster?

IN air, and given that all other factors are equal, I'll say it (for the case of intact airplanes under powered flight).

Because it's true. The higher density means that a greater force from gravity acts on it, but this is cancelled by the greater weight (so acceleration is identical). However, the force applied from drag (air resistence) as well as the amount of lift (from the wings) are identical...while the weight (more accurately, mass) are higher. Therefore, the wings provide less upward acceleration, and the drag produces less deceleration.

So the plane "falls" (more accurately, descends) faster.

[Gravy]

Are you suggesting that things that are heavier fall faster?
Planes, and other things that glide as they fall, do.

[apathoid]

Are you suggesting that things that are heavier fall faster?

This has nothing to do with freefall.

I guess I need to clarify. We have:

Airplane 1: A 757, at 80 tons, descending at idle at 2000 fpm starting at 400 mph
Airplane 2: A 757, at 125 tons, descending at idle at 2000 fpm starting at 400 mph.

The extra weight will will cause airplane 2 to speed up because more gravity is pulling it down, the rate of descent is the same in both cases. Again, this has nothing to do with freefall velocity.

[Hellbound]

This has nothing to do with freefall.

I guess I need to clarify. We have:

Airplane 1: A 757, at 80 tons, descending at idle at 2000 fpm starting at 400 mph
Airplane 2: A 757, at 125 tons, descending at idle at 2000 fpm starting at 400 mph.

The extra weight will will cause airplane 2 to speed up because more gravity is pulling it down, the rate of descent is the same in both cases. Again, this has nothing to do with freefall velocity.

I'd argue that it's not so much gravity, but that the opposing forces that are based on the shape/structure (rather than mass), such as drag and lift, produce identical forces that act on a larger mass.

Gravitic force increases, yes, but acts a higher mass, and the effects cancel out.

[Darth Rotor]

The descent of the aircraft is not determined by gravity because an aircraft is not in free-fall. You must consider aerodynamics.

To maintain altitude, an aircraft must generate enough lift to maintain the aircraft's weight in the air. The lighter the aircraft, the less lift is required - hence why a 747 needs a long runway and a high rotate speed, whereas a Cessna 172, for example, requires a much shorter runway and lower rotate speed.

A fully laden aircraft requires more lift than one with little fuel on board. As such, given a full and an empty aircraft, both in the same attitude at the same thrust level, the heavier aircraft will descend faster - because the shortfall in required lift will be greater.

-Andrew
rwguinn is in the right.

Vertical speed and velocity vector are not the same for an aircraft that still has lift. The aircraft was not falling vertically, it was flying a roughly 5 degree glide slope.

Given the overall weight of the aircraft, the marginal difference in airspeed vector due to fuel would account for a knot or three (five?) of difference in airspeed in a shallow dive like that. The nose/pitch attitude, and angle of attack on the arifoils (below the horizontal) would have more to do with that, as you'd get additive thrust from gravity (a small resultant vector) to add to the thrust from the engines. Less than a percent, if impact was at 400+ knots.

The Kinetic Energy at impact would be calculated at the point of impact to include the vector sum of the forces along the line of travel: gravity's contribution to this is minimal, since the plane had lift, and plenty of it, all the way to impact. Lift is a force that counteracts gravity, or generally works in opposition to gravity.

DR

[Hellbound]

Vertical...<good stuff>...gravity.

DR

I'd agree with this, too. BUt I'm mainly concerned with proof of concept :)

[Darth Rotor]

Planes, and other things that glide as they fall, do.

The general equation is

Power + Attitude = Performance for as long as the airfoils are above stall speed.

DR

[apathoid]

I'd argue that it's not so much gravity, but that the opposing forces that are based on the shape/structure (rather than mass), such as drag and lift, produce identical forces that act on a larger mass.

Gravitic force increases, yes, but acts a higher mass, and the effects cancel out.

Yeah, I dont doubt you're right. But I always thought drag opposed thrust and lift opposed weight. Meaning more weight wouldnt necesarily lead to more drag, thus not slowing the plane down.

[Hellbound]

Yeah, I dont doubt you're right. But I always thought drag opposed thrust and lift opposed weight. Meaning more weight wouldnt necesarily lead to more drag, thus not slowing the plane down.

Well, drag is based on area and shape, not weight, so weight shouldn't increase drag. Because the plane is more massive, the drag (which exerts the same amount of force as on a similar plane with a lighter load) has more mass to decelerate, so slows it at a lower rate. Basically, all this boils down to is the heavier plane has more inertia.

But drag opposes thrust is correct, and gravity opposes lift is correct, but only in perfectly horizontal flight. As you raise the nose you have thrust and lift opposing drag and gravity. As you nose down you have thrust and gravity opposing drag and lift.