Loose Change - Part IV

[Darat]

Will this never end?

Part I can be found here:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102
Part II can be found here:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57424
Part III can be found here:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58618

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Surely there've been bigger threads than this series... right?

[Shrinker]

First post. Universalseed.org!!! LOL

edit: Beaten. Dammit!!!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

First post. Universalseed.org!!! LOL

edit: Beaten. Dammit!!!
:bananalama:

[WildCat]

Just so it's in this thread, MarkyX's work:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uFNBpjZCI4 - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUZnHpkyCp4 - Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8srm5Lk4hM - Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-HmcVtiX-s - Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2MZwxJRYI - Part 5

[Dragon]

Surely there've been bigger threads than this series... right?Don't think so. I reckon these threads even outdo the "Carlos Swett Affair" (which was also related to 9/11 of course).

Hmm, I wonder where Carlos/latinjral is now? What if he were to post his "paranormal hat" video over at the Loose Change forum?
Might be worth a laugh ...

[Belz...]

Just watched part one.

My heart's beating like a rabbit.

Is it, now ?

:zzw:

[Gravy]

I was going to suggest that the old thread be ended and an new, generic 9/11 thread begun, but I guess that'll have to wait for another 5,000 posts.

[Shrinker]

I was going to suggest that the old thread be ended and an new, generic 9/11 thread begun, but I guess that'll have to wait for another 5,000 posts.
I wonder whether its time for a conspiracy theory subforum. Strictly speaking this thread should be dozens of smaller threads but General Skepticism and the Paranormal isn't quite the place.

[Darat]

Good suggestion, try floating the idea in Community or Forum Management and see what the feedback is.

[Bindamel]

The first three threads contain 11,405 posts.

So trailing behind three word story, and barely half of Top Ten List Challenge.

Pretty impressive for a "3%" thread, though!

[Dragon]

The first three threads contain 11,405 posts.

So trailing behind three word story, and barely half of Top Ten List Challenge.

Pretty impressive for a "3%" thread, though! and behind The REAL Spawn of "The Thread That Will Not Die"! (currently at 15,921) - but I wasn't thinking of fun threads. I still reckon that Loose Change Parts 1 to IV is the longest on a substantive issue.

[gumboot]

How do you determine when a new thread should be started? Is there a limit on each size?

-Andrew

[Shrinker]

Good suggestion, try floating the idea in Community or Forum Management and see what the feedback is.

It is done.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60977

[kookbreaker]

The thread that wil not die is also years old. How old it this trail? Six months?

[Darat]

The thread that wil not die is also years old. How old it this trail? Six months?

Are you suggesting that this consipracy theory will never die.... Nooooooo!!

[gumboot]

Are you suggesting that this consipracy theory will never die.... Nooooooo!!


Good CTs don't die... they just fade away...

(to be brought back up as supporting evidence for the NEXT CT - see JFK)

-Andrew

[Darat]

How do you determine when a new thread should be started? Is there a limit on each size?

-Andrew

The first "close and split" came about because there was a "natural point" in the discussion where a break seemed sensible - since then it's normally been when someone has reminded me (thanks Regnad Kcin) that once again the beast has grown rather large.

[gumboot]

The first "close and split" came about because there was a "natural point" in the discussion where a break seemed sensible - since then it's normally been when someone has reminded me (thanks Regnad Kcin) that once again the beast has grown rather large.


Gotcha... keep up the good work...:cool:

:kiwibird:
-Andrew

P.S. I always rather liked your avatar by the way...

[MarkyX]

Something to annoy Chuck Sheen with.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9904/lolsheepfn1.jpg

[chipmunk stew]

Something to annoy Chuck Sheen with.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9904/lolsheepfn1.jpg
Mark, your video is deliciously vicious. It's sad seeing the Loosers trying to defend Dylan et al and recover the moral high ground. Well done.

[MarkyX]

Yep. I wonder how people will defend Alex Jones outright lying.

[60hzxtl]

Universal Seed?

Dang! I thought it was Universal Screed! the Drive-in of Delusion!

[realitybites]

I've been IP banned, suspended, locked out, whatever over at LC, but I can ready the archives of the Loosers Speak thread. I've seen a lot of comments about the laughing at box-cutters and "firemen are stupid", etc...

Could someone bring up Dylan's insinuation that Bernard Brown sent his son to his death and then admitted to never having talked to Mr. Brown to confirm? I think that's one of the most disgusting and contemptable displays to date.

[chipmunk stew]

I've been IP banned, suspended, locked out, whatever over at LC, but I can ready the archives of the Loosers Speak thread. I've seen a lot of comments about the laughing at box-cutters and "firemen are stupid", etc...

Could someone bring up Dylan's insinuation that Bernard Brown sent his son to his death and then admitted to never having talked to Mr. Brown to confirm? I think that's one of the most disgusting and contemptable displays to date.
I brought it up this morning. Not a single comment about it from the Loosers yet. The thread is in a Northwoods/Gladio derail at the moment.

[Hellbound]

Speaking of boxcutters,

There was a link at the end of the last thread to a picture of the boxcutters used. THey aren't the little bitty "1/4" triangle of blade" things or the "razor-blade holder" things. They're the extendible blade utility knives, as I suspected earlier, razor sharp and with a blade that can extend to about 4 or 5 inches (link is at this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1812168&postcount=3574)).

[Hutch]

Well, I didn't get banned, but have recieved a Warning for saying this about the LC Forum:

The truth is, you're pip-squeeks; a bacterium on the mite on the pimple on the buttocks of the Internet.

I guess I get points for creativity in my insults...

Pressing on.

[chipmunk stew]

Speaking of boxcutters,

There was a link at the end of the last thread to a picture of the boxcutters used. THey aren't the little bitty "1/4" triangle of blade" things or the "razor-blade holder" things. They're the extendible blade utility knives, as I suspected earlier, razor sharp and with a blade that can extend to about 4 or 5 inches (link is at this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1812168&postcount=3574)).
Don't you know you can snap those blades off with the smallest flick of a finger? [/CT Who Has Never Handled a Tool in His Life mode]

[MarkyX]

And the jackasses are commenting on my youtube.

"markyX you need to come up with more evidence proving the government story. it doesn't do anything but show more "info" from other sources. sorry man keep trying"

"I don't understand what the whole thing about Mark being Gay had to do with 9/11 or debunking anything.."

Little do they realize that the video wasn't meant to debunk all myths.

[Belz...]

P.S. I always rather liked your avatar by the way...

Yeah, but I liked it first, so _I_'m supposed to get the favours, okay ?

[Hellbound]

Don't you know you can snap those blades off with the smallest flick of a finger? [/CT Who Has Never Handled a Tool in His Life mode]

They do break easy, but IMO that makes em more dangerous. Still rather face a knife.

These things will break the blade off after a stab (or a chance to, anyway), and typically carry a half-dozen to a dozen blades in the handle.

[chipmunk stew]

They do break easy, but IMO that makes em more dangerous. Still rather face a knife.

These things will break the blade off after a stab (or a chance to, anyway), and typically carry a half-dozen to a dozen blades in the handle.
Yeah, I'm sure it's no fun continuing a fight for your life with a broken-off shard of metal embedded in your neck.

[T.A.M.]

MarkyX

I watched all of your Video. Very impressive. It is gut wrenching at times, but I think if people see this after watching LC, tehy may be less taken back by his rap video, sound byte approach to the subject.

(Hats off)

[c0rbin]

I too was warned (currently at 100%) for the following "foul and offensive" stetments:

"Lesbians are the best flossers"

and

"Jane, you ignorant slut."

[Bronze Dog]

I've learned not to underestimate box cutters.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/2730/eva6.jpg

But seriously, I try not to underestimate anything sharp, especially in the hands of someone trained for violence.

I remember someone posting a link to a news story about boxcutters being used to deadly effect in a crime. Anyone know it off hand?

[gfunkusarelius]

good lord, its amazing how i will occassionally pop into these threads to see what is being discussed and things that seem so easily dismissed are still debated.
so the old boxcutter debate still has fuel.
and to make the same argument i am sure you have all seen, before 9/11 people assumed it was better to obey terrorists who claimed they would blow up the plane regardless of what they were armed with, it just wasnt worth it. the fact that these terrorists managed to slit a few throats was probably even more than they needed to do. and once they realized they were gonna die anyway, flight 93 rebelled. seems like this all makes sense (waiting for CTist to say it makes too much sense) . there is no history of hijacking that would lead me to believe peope wouldve resisted the hijackers differently than they did.
this is why i only pop in occassionally- there are almost never any new insights. just retreading the same old crap.

[kevin]

They do break easy, but IMO that makes em more dangerous. Still rather face a knife.

These things will break the blade off after a stab (or a chance to, anyway), and typically carry a half-dozen to a dozen blades in the handle.

MarkyX's video has a picture of a boxcutter that I assume was found in the wreckage? It used blades like these:

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/prodmeta/pg_prodmeta.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&cartCntKey=Hand+Tools%2FCutting+Tools%2FKnives+%26 +Scissors&CNTKEY=Products_2%2FHand+Tools%2FCutting+Tools%2FK nives+%26+Scissors&ProductOID=734282&BV_SessionID=@@@@1483367331.1154535104@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccgiaddihieemgicgelceffdfgidgim.0

These are the single bladed type that you can flip the blade around for two uses.

The knives were the only threat the hijackers had, however they apparently told the passengers they had a bomb on board too. The CT'ers are all ready to put their lives on the line against a boxcutter, but would they still do it if they believed there was a bomb on board too? Obviously the passengers of the last plane knew they would be dead either way so they did do it, but the first planes didn't know.

[MarkyX]

That is just a normal boxcutter.

I merely show it after the article to show that "Yeah, that little knife can cause problems"

[kevin]

ah, just saw the knife from the evidence in the trial. Yeah, those are the multi-blade types. I imagine they had different types to get on board. Or the one MarkyX had pictures of came from within the WTC or Pentagon and not the plane.

eta: heh, cross-posted.

[Matthew Best]

The knives were the only threat the hijackers had, however they apparently told the passengers they had a bomb on board too.

I'm not up on this as much as many of you, but I'm almost sure I read somewhere that in one of the cell phone calls from one of the planes, some form of gas or Mace-like substance was also mentioned. No?

[Ersby]

One thing that bothers me about the Northwoods thing is that the logic they use (US govt contemplates fake attack, attack occurs, therefore it was fake) doesn't seem to apply to the fundamentalists who attacked WTC in 1993, nor does apply to Avery himself (Avery contemplates making a fictional film, a film is made, so therefore it must be fictional. Right?)

[60hzxtl]

I'm not up on this as much as many of you, but I'm almost sure I read somewhere that in one of the cell phone calls from one of the planes, some form of gas or Mace-like substance was also mentioned. No?

Betty Ong Flt 12

Hear it from her lips here:

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.html

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

One thing that bothers me about the Northwoods thing is that the logic they use (US govt contemplates fake attack, attack occurs, therefore it was fake) doesn't seem to apply to the fundamentalists who attacked WTC in 1993, nor does apply to Avery himself (Avery contemplates making a fictional film, a film is made, so therefore it must be fictional. Right?)

Right. Given my limited knowledge of Northwoods, the plan was to fake an attack and use that fake attack as an excuse to go to war. The plan was not to carry out an attack, but do so disguised as Cubans and then go to war. This is a major difference.

Consider this analogy: a company considers hiring a group of white hat hackers to test their IT security systems. The company decides not to do so. The company then gets hacked by a group of black hat crackers. No one is going to suspect the company of doing it to themselves.

[Shrinker]

A quick reminder for the anti-CT regulars to give your thoughts here http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60977 on a dedicated Conspiracy Theory or Alternative History subforum. Initial comments are positive, but there aren't many of them.

Incidentally, while we celebrate(?) our 11,000 post monster thread, let us not forget our old friend DJ Legacy who's comprehensive set of 9/11 forums are now celebrating their 208th post. Even better, 57% of those posts are by people other than DJ Legacy himself, contributing a staggering 4 posts per day. I guess when you're all agreed on the Truth, there isn't much to talk about.

And one last plug. My Loose Change IMDB review at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0831315/usercomments is currently the top rated out of 11 entires, however a late showing by the Loosers is knocking down my score somewhat. If you haven't yet voted, please do. (It's quite a negative review btw ;))

[Regnad Kcin]

I too was warned (currently at 100%) for the following "foul and offensive" stetments:

"Lesbians are the best flossers"

and

"Jane, you ignorant slut."And yet the queen bee, Dylan Avery, can fart out some of the most offensive imaginings, and all sing hosannas.

johndoex is now a moderator. Please.

Up is down, right is left, and on is off in LC-land.

[aggle-rithm]

the fact that these terrorists managed to slit a few throats was probably even more than they needed to do. and once they realized they were gonna die anyway, flight 93 rebelled. seems like this all makes sense (waiting for CTist to say it makes too much sense) . there is no history of hijacking that would lead me to believe peope wouldve resisted the hijackers differently than they did.


Exactly. Even if I thought all I was just going to get was a nasty cut, I would prefer a trip to Cuba, or wherever I thought the hijackers were taking the plane, than to take on a psycho with a box cutter. The CTer's all act as if people then knew everything they know now.

What I would like to ask the Loosers (if only I weren't banned!) is how they would react in this hypothetical situation:

Say you are working the late shift at McDonalds. You are in the restroom washing your hands when some guy bursts in with a box cutter. He tells you to stay where you are, the store is being robbed, and he will let you go when the robbery is complete.

If he is telling the truth, then it would certainly work to your advantage to do what he says. After all, it's no skin off your neck if McDonalds gets robbed, and although it's an inconvenience, you'll come out of it unscathed and probably get the rest of the night off.

However, if he's planning on killing you, then it is best to try and fight your way past him and get the hell out of there.

It would be interesting to see how the CTer's would respond to this, since they claim to know EXACTLY what to do in a similar situation.

[MarkyX]

Hey Gravy, you might be getting an interesting email today. Let's say someone in the media wanted to contact me but I pointed them to you instead.

Hopefully your email address on the loose change guide website is correct.

[Matthew Best]

Betty Ong Flt 12

Hear it from her lips here:

vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.htm

So the claim that "the knives were the only threat the hijackers had" is actually incorrect. Not that it's terribly important in the grand scheme of things, but it seems like we should hold ourselves to higher standards of accuracy than those we're arguing with.

[gumboot]

Right. Given my limited knowledge of Northwoods, the plan was to fake an attack and use that fake attack as an excuse to go to war. The plan was not to carry out an attack, but do so disguised as Cubans and then go to war. This is a major difference.


Absolutely. One thing to remember about the CTer Northwoods link...

They primarily use it as evidence that the government has no quarms about carrying out terrorist attacks against innocent people to start a war...

In the example of Northwoods, on both counts their "evidence" fails.

1) The government DID have quarms about carrying out Northwoods, and the plan was rejected.
2) The plan did not in any way involve the killing or injuring of anyone.

Hence both pretenses of the Northwoods scenario, as presented by CTers, are false.

-Andrew

[Mongrel]

And one last plug. My Loose Change IMDB review at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0831315/usercomments is currently the top rated out of 11 entires, however a late showing by the Loosers is knocking down my score somewhat. If you haven't yet voted, please do. (It's quite a negative review btw ;))


Nice to see they're being their normal, rational and literate selves there..
if you have come here via google- or you've heard about this film from a friend- or even someone who blew a nut over the content in this film- TRUST THE COMMENTS, and download now mofo- if you thought fareignheit was at least interesting- think of this times %10.000 this film is the beginning of a rabbit hole that will intrigue you- send you into a bout of denial criticism and doubt, then you will find another dot that connects to the scheme of things.. then another and another and another.....

this video has spread more rapidly than anything else and people have slammed it before even watching it- people are scared of what they've heard about the video and the hysteria that accompanies it, you will also notice as you look deeper the effect it has had on even the most hardened skeptics- i fully expect many people aren't ready for the culture shock that will sucker punch them in the gut and you will never look at things the same way again....

WATCH AND THANK YOURSELF LATER FOR HAVING DONE-SO.

if the media is reading this comment this film has rewired my mind and re-burned all the neural connections that have defined my reality- me and millions of other people (theres a reason its getting no coverage) even if you watch this once eventually the denial will be replaced somewhere down the road- i seen it happen too many times...

[pgwenthold]

Exactly. Even if I thought all I was just going to get was a nasty cut, I would prefer a trip to Cuba, or wherever I thought the hijackers were taking the plane, than to take on a psycho with a box cutter. The CTer's all act as if people then knew everything they know now.


And I like to point out that, when people DID know what we know now, they in fact DID revolt and overtake the hijackers. Of course, CTers deny that happening, too.

So when passengers didn't fight back, they should have. And when they did fight back, they didn't. Only in the CT world.

[c0rbin]

So when passengers didn't fight back, they should have. And when they did fight back, they didn't. Only in the CT world.


I am a fan of succinct language and I intend to make this line my Loose Change sig.

Thanks!

[defaultdotxbe]

one that that annoys me about northwoods is how the loosers cherry-pick how the use it

Northwoods was planned

---sets govt precedent of planning fake terror campaigns

Northwoods was rejected

---does not set govt precedent of rejecting fake terror campaigns

And one last plug. My Loose Change IMDB review at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0831315/usercomments is currently the top rated out of 11 entires, however a late showing by the Loosers is knocking down my score somewhat. If you haven't yet voted, please do. (It's quite a negative review btw )
ive noticed you can vote multiple times there, about once every 10-15 minutes

[Johnny Pixels]

I've just been rading Chipmunk Stew's thread on LC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9443) about Islamic Terrorism, and the responses from the CT nuts are starting to convince me that they hold on to their beliefs partly because they are scared of the unknown enemy. They try to talk themselves into believing that Islamic extremists are merely products of US foreign policy. They don't seem to want to accept that someone could hate them unconditionally. By switching the blame to the goverment they switch the fear to something they can see and understand. The best analogy I can think of is sleeping with the light on when there's a spider in your room, because as long as you can see where it is, you can see what it's up to and you can keep away from it. As soon as it disappears behind something then it becomes scary, because you don't know where its going or what it wants to do, because you don't know how spiders think.

Unless of course you aren't scared of spiders, then you substitute spider with crab, or badger, or Darat, or whatever your particular phobia is.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my freinds.
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was.
And they'll continue reading it forever just because...

[MarkyX]

I've just been rading Chipmunk Stew's thread on LC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9443) about Islamic Terrorism, and the responses from the CT nuts are starting to convince me that they hold on to their beliefs partly because they are scared of the unknown enemy. They try to talk themselves into believing that Islamic extremists are merely products of US foreign policy. They don't seem to want to accept that someone could hate them unconditionally. By switching the blame to the goverment they switch the fear to something they can see and understand. The best analogy I can think of is sleeping with the light on when there's a spider in your room, because as long as you can see where it is, you can see what it's up to and you can keep away from it. As soon as it disappears behind something then it becomes scary, because you don't know where its going or what it wants to do, because you don't know how spiders think.

Unless of course you aren't scared of spiders, then you substitute spider with crab, or badger, or Darat, or whatever your particular phobia is.

Hey, he is using the link I sent him :)

[Grundar]

I just wanted to add a comment about attacking a guy with a box cutter. Wasn't there five hijackers on the plane and I would imagine that at least two of them kept an eye on the passengers. There is a difference between attacking one guy or up to four guys.

/Hans

[MarkyX]

Oh man, I just looked at this thread.

IGNORANCE.


On July 3rd 1979, the CIA gave birth to Islamic Fundamentalism when president Jimmy Carter signed a directive for United States intelligence to provide radical Islamic thinking and arms to Afghanistan fighters before the soviet union invaded. Read Zbigniew Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard.


No no no no no no no no no!

Islamic Fundamentalism has been around for a very long time, but against Western culture started in 1928, before CIA or Israel was made. MUSLIM. BROTHERHOOD.

This type of idiocy only leads to one conclusion: Chuck Sheen is Charlie Sheen's brother.

As for terroristins hating our freedom, well...dumb delivery, but let's just say terrorists think that our freedoms are flaws and sins.

- Women have the right to wear as little or as much as they want. Under Islam, no go.

- We are materialistic bastards. Men can't wear gold rings under Islam.

- Church and State are seperate. Islamic exteminists see church running the government.

I wish I can post there, but they will lynch me at the spot.

I do know that the United States had their hand involved when Osama Bin Laden was against the soviets. It was mainly weapons and funding through Pakistani intel. Not sure if it was the United States that supported it, or under the CIA in secret.

Either way, Chuck Sheen is an ignorant bastard.

[Brainster]

Exactly. Even if I thought all I was just going to get was a nasty cut, I would prefer a trip to Cuba, or wherever I thought the hijackers were taking the plane, than to take on a psycho with a box cutter. The CTer's all act as if people then knew everything they know now.

What I would like to ask the Loosers (if only I weren't banned!) is how they would react in this hypothetical situation:

Say you are working the late shift at McDonalds. You are in the restroom washing your hands when some guy bursts in with a box cutter. He tells you to stay where you are, the store is being robbed, and he will let you go when the robbery is complete.

It would be interesting to see how the CTer's would respond to this, since they claim to know EXACTLY what to do in a similar situation.

Dylan would laugh in their face. Professor Fetzer would beat them to death with a toilet paper roll.

[Brainster]

I just wanted to add a comment about attacking a guy with a box cutter. Wasn't there five hijackers on the plane and I would imagine that at least two of them kept an eye on the passengers. There is a difference between attacking one guy or up to four guys.

/Hans

Assume two pilots in the cockpit (redundancy), and three muscle outside (except of course for Flight 93, where the hijackers were short one man). All were trained in hand-to-hand combat in close quarters.

[realitybites]

Assume two pilots in the cockpit (redundancy), and three muscle outside (except of course for Flight 93, where the hijackers were short one man). All were trained in hand-to-hand combat in close quarters.
Yeah, but no way they coulda' stood up to my Samsonite carry-on with special pull out handle bar that doubles as a terrorist slayer.

Woulda' been nice to finally get some use out of that feature, eh Jimmy?

[Regnad Kcin]

...this video has spread more rapidly than anything else and people have slammed it before even watching it- people are scared of what they've heard about the video and the hysteria that accompanies it, you will also notice as you look deeper the effect it has had on even the most hardened skepticsWell, the effect it had on this "hardened skeptic" (please) was to reevaluate my apparently very conservative estimate of how many people there are in the world who need help tying their shoelaces.

[60hzxtl]

Assume two pilots in the cockpit (redundancy), and three muscle outside (except of course for Flight 93, where the hijackers were short one man). All were trained in hand-to-hand combat in close quarters.


I don't care if the pilots were all trained karate masters - their first responsibility is to their passengers.

You can't park the plane and have a fist fight.

If the pilots over powered the hijackers, and passengers were killed, and the planes landed safely, the pilots would be held responsible for those deaths, even if more passengers lived than died.

Maybe the loosers don't get the idea of responsibility - you need a job to get the idea.

[chipmunk stew]

Hey, he is using the link I sent him :)
w00t!
Thanks, Mark. This is a really good documentary, folks. It demonstrates exactly why distracting ourselves from the threat of Islamic terrorism (by shifting the blame, for instance) is a perilous game.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=obsession

[Grundar]

I don't care if the pilots were all trained karate masters - their first responsibility is to their passengers.

You can't park the plane and have a fist fight.

If the pilots over powered the hijackers, and passengers were killed, and the planes landed safely, the pilots would be held responsible for those deaths, even if more passengers lived than died.

Maybe the loosers don't get the idea of responsibility - you need a job to get the idea.
I think He was talking about the hijackers. :)

/Hans

[Hutch]

I wish I can post there, but they will lynch me at the spot.

Yes, but it would be a glorious death! :cool: :D

I do know that the United States had their hand involved when Osama Bin Laden was against the soviets. It was mainly weapons and funding through Pakistani intel. Not sure if it was the United States that supported it, or under the CIA in secret.

There is a marvelous book out there called "Charlie Wilson's War" about the Texas Congressman and how he helped haul us in the Afghan war against the Soviets. Very interesting reading, IMHO.

Either way, Chuck Sheen is an ignorant bastard.

Of that, there can be no doubt. I have already called me chuck(Minister of Truth)sheen for his blatant editing of posts over there. I'd call him Mr. Goebbels but he'd ban me (once somebdy explained to him who Goebbels is)

[MarkyX]

Good news guys..

9/11 Deniers Speak is going to be on Google Video quite soon.

[defaultdotxbe]

I do know that the United States had their hand involved when Osama Bin Laden was against the soviets. It was mainly weapons and funding through Pakistani intel. Not sure if it was the United States that supported it, or under the CIA in secret.

IIRC the US govt only aided afghani natives (IE taliban) against the soviets, not foreigners like (saudi arabian) OBL

of course the taliban could have in turn handed US aid to OBL, but thats beside the point



was anyone complaining during the cold war about us fighting our old (WW2) ally the USSR? the enemy of my enemy is my freind, no?

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."
-Winston Churchill

[Belz...]

I've just been rading Chipmunk Stew's thread on LC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9443) about Islamic Terrorism, and the responses from the CT nuts are starting to convince me that they hold on to their beliefs partly because they are scared of the unknown enemy. They try to talk themselves into believing that Islamic extremists are merely products of US foreign policy.

I see he's been suspended.

Of course, Chipmunk didn't help his cause by using some rather harsh words in regards to muslims. "hate speech", as they've called it.

On the other hand, the clearly anti-semitic tones of some parts of their site seems to be ignored, no ?

[Belz...]

thread on LC (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9443)

Oh, my. JohndoeX continues to lay his golden nuggets:





Whats a Kuffar?
It is the arabic word for someone who is not a muslim.
I thought that was infadel?
It would be if arabs spoke English.

[defaultdotxbe]

I'm sorry, Chuck, I have to point this out again because it's extremely distracting to me, and I'm having a hard time really reading your posts. I find your sig, with Condi Rice in blackface, very offensive.

Too bad. I'm not the artist and I can't change it. Apparently it's illustrating the fact that Condi like Powell is disenfranchising black people by supporting corruption. Black people have a horrible history of opression and she should learn how to sanctify the importance of that struggle and lesson, not create new struggles for people around the world. People need to spread knowledge, love and peace not ignorance.
am i reading chucky wrong or is he saying that because powell and rice are black they shoudl liberal CT wackos like mckinney? how is that not racist?

[MarkyX]

I wonder if Sheen thinks Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman are also part of the "problem"

If Martin Luther King Jr Speech, a highly respected individual among his peers, were around, he would choke at the state of black community today.

Again, ignorant jackass.

[defaultdotxbe]

i think internet is on vacation, all my usual sites are dead, no discussion going on

i spent the last 20 minutes on digg burying stories on loose change, lol

[T.A.M.]

I think the fact that most of the LC guys left the SLC and SLC forum leave little to be said, but to comment on new findings, as there are few to have the old arguments with, and noone likes preaching to the choir.

[T.A.M.]

I expect we'll get some new stuff now though. The Commission's admission that they suspect lying from the FAA and Norad was big enough to get mentioned on CNN by Jack Mcafery (spelling). I am sure the LC guys are going hog wild over it, even though it leaves them in a pickle as too who the bad guys are.

[Brainster]

Hot Air's got it (http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/08/02/video-loose-change-director-chuckles-over-flight-93/):

Watch all of this one, seriously. At least to the part where he accuses a father whose 11-year-old son died on Flight 77 of having had advance knowledge of the plot.

Little Green Footballs says (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21900&only&rss):

Dylan Avery, the evil creep who made the 9/11 conspiracy film Loose Change, is caught on tape laughing at the heroes of Flight 93, and suggesting that the father of an 11-year old boy who died on 9/11 was in on the “plot:” “Loose Change” director chuckles over Flight 93.

These are among the biggest blogs in the country. I don't know, but it's possible that James had something to do with this getting picked up at Hot Air.

Check out some of the comments on those blogs as well; If I were Dylan Avery, I wouldn't want to meet any of the people who've seen this film. To a certain extent we're callous about this stuff because we're used to these dopes making jokes about the passengers. Don't get me wrong, that's the whole reason I agreed when James approached me about doing SLC. But you know how it is; you go nuclear the first time and after that it's just an annoyance. These folks have just gone nuclear.

BTW, these blogs are conservative/Republican oriented, so you may see some negative comments about liberals, because the assumption is that these guys must be liberal. We know better--they're nutbars of various political persuasions. Reynolds seems to be a legit conservative, as does Stephen Jones. Fetzer's clearly a liberal. Alex Jones is probably a libertarian. So it does run the gamut.

Kudos to Markyx and to Gravy, whose "Loose Change Creators Speak" was the source for much of this film. Great job, guys!

[T.A.M.]

JohndoeX is a godamn creep. He is freakin powerfilled over there now, acting like he is the dictator of the LC skeptic forum.

Funny thing is, appart from flying related questions, I don't think he has ever offered any evidence or proof on any aspect of 9/11.

He is a twit

[gumboot]

IIRC the US govt only aided afghani natives (IE taliban) against the soviets, not foreigners like (saudi arabian) OBL

of course the taliban could have in turn handed US aid to OBL, but thats beside the point


Not entirely... the Taliban didn't turn up until 1996, well after the Soviets withdrew and CIA support ended.

The CIA and MI6 involvement was channelled through the ISI, but Operation Cyclone involved the training of tens of thousands of Islamic Radicals in the USA and Pakistan.

Bear in mind that at this stage OBL and his Mijahedeen were not terrorists. They had only fought against the Soviet Army, not civilians.

It is also good to point out that the US strategy was to drag the USSR into a Vietnam-like war. They figured that the oppressive communist regime would not survive such a war (unlike America's free democratic society). In particular they hoped it would weaken the USSR's grip on eastern Europe. You have to think back to the time period. Nuclear War was a high probability, and if the Cold War went on long enough, some felt it was inevitable. What's the sin of helping train a few fundi Islamic fighters (who it was considered posed no threat to the USA) if it means removing the thread of global Nuclear War?

And did the strategy work? Well the last Soviet troops withdrew in defeat from Afghanistan in February 1989. The following November the Berlin Wall was torn down...

-Andrew

[chipmunk stew]

I see he's been suspended.

Of course, Chipmunk didn't help his cause by using some rather harsh words in regards to muslims. "hate speech", as they've called it.

On the other hand, the clearly anti-semitic tones of some parts of their site seems to be ignored, no ?
Yeah, about that post:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9443&view=findpost&p=6470604
The point I was trying to make (badly, apparently) would have been better stated: "You must think Arabs are a bunch of brown desert monkeys incapable of having their own agenda, who have to be the puppets of the evil white geniuses." (I also get this feeling when people talk about how absurd it is that a group of "Arab cave-dwellers" could have pulled off the 9/11 attacks.)

It was in response to the idea that Islamic terrorism is entirely the brainchild of Western intelligence, and that the radical Muslims involved are mere pawns, victims of the evil [insert favorite group of puppetmasters here] just like the rest of us. The reality, as most of us here recognize, is not nearly so one-sided, and the radical Islamist groups clearly used the West at least as much as the West used them.

I apologize for the use of the phrase.

edit: Would someone kindly post this over in that thread?

[T.A.M.]

Here is a quote from a commenter at "Hot Air" after watching MarkyX's film:

"Is it wrong to feel hate?

I’m sitting here literally shaking, my eyes welling up with tears, because I am so full of hate right now.

I wish I hadn’t listened to that.

God help me, but I hate them. I. Hate. These. People.

I have more respect for the terrorists than I do for people like this. I really do.

An open challenge to these creatures: I will meet any of you, any time, any place. I’m a whopping 5′8″ tall and closer to 40 than 30. I won’t even bring a box cutter with me. In fact, you can bring one. Bring two.

And we’ll see if you can back up that evil, abhorrent ******** you’re spewing.

But be warned: I’m going to find that father, you know, the one you think sent his son to his death while he played golf … he’s going to come and watch. We may pick up Lisa Beamer and Ted Olson on the way. They’ll bring lawn chairs. Some popcorn. A video camera.

And we’ll talk. Just you and I. We’ll talk about how tough you are, about how brave and courageous you would have been if it had been your plane, your child’s plane.

Let’s talk, shall we, tough guys?"


I'd say you hit the Mark, MarkyX...I think the intesity level has gone up a few notches....

[JamesB]

IIRC the US govt only aided afghani natives (IE taliban) against the soviets, not foreigners like (saudi arabian) OBL

of course the taliban could have in turn handed US aid to OBL, but thats beside the point



was anyone complaining during the cold war about us fighting our old (WW2) ally the USSR? the enemy of my enemy is my freind, no?

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."
-Winston Churchill

The Taliban did not fight in the war against the Soviets. They weren't formed until the mid 90s, mostly from Afghan students studying in Pakistani madrassas. Thus the name Taliban, coming from the Arabic word for student, "Talib"

[JamesB]

Hot Air's got it (http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/08/02/video-loose-change-director-chuckles-over-flight-93/):



Little Green Footballs says (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21900&only&rss):



These are among the biggest blogs in the country. I don't know, but it's possible that James had something to do with this getting picked up at Hot Air.

Check out some of the comments on those blogs as well; If I were Dylan Avery, I wouldn't want to meet any of the people who've seen this film. To a certain extent we're callous about this stuff because we're used to these dopes making jokes about the passengers. Don't get me wrong, that's the whole reason I agreed when James approached me about doing SLC. But you know how it is; you go nuclear the first time and after that it's just an annoyance. These folks have just gone nuclear.

BTW, these blogs are conservative/Republican oriented, so you may see some negative comments about liberals, because the assumption is that these guys must be liberal. We know better--they're nutbars of various political persuasions. Reynolds seems to be a legit conservative, as does Stephen Jones. Fetzer's clearly a liberal. Alex Jones is probably a libertarian. So it does run the gamut.

Kudos to Markyx and to Gravy, whose "Loose Change Creators Speak" was the source for much of this film. Great job, guys!

It wasn't me, I have been too busy to do an publicity. Allah at Hot Air is a fan of the site though, so he runs stuff all the time. Mark did a great job, it should get plenty of play.

[defaultdotxbe]

Hot Air's got it (http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/08/02/video-loose-change-director-chuckles-over-flight-93/):



Little Green Footballs says (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21900&only&rss):



These are among the biggest blogs in the country. I don't know, but it's possible that James had something to do with this getting picked up at Hot Air.

Check out some of the comments on those blogs as well; If I were Dylan Avery, I wouldn't want to meet any of the people who've seen this film. To a certain extent we're callous about this stuff because we're used to these dopes making jokes about the passengers. Don't get me wrong, that's the whole reason I agreed when James approached me about doing SLC. But you know how it is; you go nuclear the first time and after that it's just an annoyance. These folks have just gone nuclear.

BTW, these blogs are conservative/Republican oriented, so you may see some negative comments about liberals, because the assumption is that these guys must be liberal. We know better--they're nutbars of various political persuasions. Reynolds seems to be a legit conservative, as does Stephen Jones. Fetzer's clearly a liberal. Alex Jones is probably a libertarian. So it does run the gamut.

Kudos to Markyx and to Gravy, whose "Loose Change Creators Speak" was the source for much of this film. Great job, guys!
theres a few links to the LGF post on digg
http://digg.com/search?s=loose+change+chuckles

[MarkyX]

To be honest, I wish they didn't post so early. Most people are viewing only part 1 and thinking that's the entire movie!

[T.A.M.]

It would be nice if someone with an account at Hot Air or LGF would post a link to the LC skeptics Forum. If they think the movie got them mad, let them read a few comments over there.

[chipmunk stew]

To be honest, I wish they didn't post so early. Most people are viewing only part 1 and thinking that's the entire movie!
Don't worry, the rest will circulate quickly. Part 1 is enough to get people really steamed, anyway.

[chipmunk stew]

Yeah, about that post:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9443&view=findpost&p=6470604
The point I was trying to make (badly, apparently) would have been better stated: "You must think Arabs are a bunch of brown desert monkeys incapable of having their own agenda, who have to be the puppets of the evil white geniuses." (I also get this feeling when people talk about how absurd it is that a group of "Arab cave-dwellers" could have pulled off the 9/11 attacks.)

It was in response to the idea that Islamic terrorism is entirely the brainchild of Western intelligence, and that the radical Muslims involved are mere pawns, victims of the evil [insert favorite group of puppetmasters here] just like the rest of us. The reality, as most of us here recognize, is not nearly so one-sided, and the radical Islamist groups clearly used the West at least as much as the West used them.

I apologize for the use of the phrase.

edit: Would someone kindly post this over in that thread?
Whoever "Cheeseburger Picnic" is, thanks.

[Regnad Kcin]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1814764&postcount=80

Is it wrong to feel that a bit of poetic justice is in store for our Mr. Avery? For surely he is up to his neck in something that will follow him for the rest of his days.

[aggle-rithm]

Yeah, about that post:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9443&view=findpost&p=6470604
The point I was trying to make (badly, apparently) would have been better stated: "You must think Arabs are a bunch of brown desert monkeys incapable of having their own agenda, who have to be the puppets of the evil white geniuses." (I also get this feeling when people talk about how absurd it is that a group of "Arab cave-dwellers" could have pulled off the 9/11 attacks.)


I knew what you meant here. Randi made a similar point in "Flim-Flam", where he said people believe aliens built the pyramids because there's no way the brown-skinned natives could have done it.

[gumboot]

w00t!
Thanks, Mark. This is a really good documentary, folks. It demonstrates exactly why distracting ourselves from the threat of Islamic terrorism (by shifting the blame, for instance) is a perilous game.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=obsession

:( :eek: :eye-poppi :jaw-dropp

That is one powerful documentary...

Kinda scary...:boxedin:

Anyone know where that page on tips for downloading videos is? Was it 911myths or another site? I can't find the page... :(

-Andrew

[Gravy]

Anyone know where that page on tips for downloading videos is? Was it 911myths or another site? I can't find the page... :(

-Andrew
Marky says it'll be up on Google Video soon. You can download it as one file then.

[T.A.M.]

Seems the video link over at Hot Air has been removed. Not sure why. Anyone know. JamesB??

[T.A.M.]

Found it...seems it has been moved to "Top Picks" section over there. Here is new link

http://hotair.com/archives/top-picks/2006/08/02/video-loose-change-director-chuckles-over-flight-93/

[WildCat]

Found it...seems it has been moved to "Top Picks" section over there. Here is new link

http://hotair.com/archives/top-picks/2006/08/02/video-loose-change-director-chuckles-over-flight-93/
Update: You can’t have your pudding if you don’t eat your meat (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2070972464271621938).
Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah... over here (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1791257&postcount=360). :D

[gumboot]

Marky says it'll be up on Google Video soon. You can download it as one file then.


No, I mean the page someone made up that tells you *how* to download videos from various formats...I don't know how to download from google...:o

-Andrew

[Brainster]

No, I mean the page someone made up that tells you *how* to download videos from various formats...I don't know how to download from google...:o

-Andrew

Here you go (http://www.911myths.com/html/downloading_videos.html).

[R.Mackey]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1814764&postcount=80

Is it wrong to feel that a bit of poetic justice is in store for our Mr. Avery? For surely he is up to his neck in something that will follow him for the rest of his days.
Not really. They had plenty of warning. Even issued... what, two corrections to their "documentary?"

Most people wouldn't have been given a second chance. A subject like this, so highly emotionally charged, should have invited caution and (at minimum) ethics in reporting.

Given their crassness on tape, and outbursts like Dylan's LGF tirade, I imagine they wanted it like this. A CT'er's "jihad" mentality, if you will. Well, be careful what you wish for...

[Woody-]

This is the easiest way I have found to grab videos off of Google or youtube.

http://javimoya.com/blog/youtube_en.php

If you use Firefox they have an exstension you can install so all you have to do is click a button on your browser.


PS alot of the videos you get this way are .flv format so you need a player that can handle them. I use the VLC player, you can get it here.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

[kevin]

No, I mean the page someone made up that tells you *how* to download videos from various formats...I don't know how to download from google...:o

-Andrew

Google's easy, there's a drop-down on the right that lets you pick a format and a button that starts the download.

I usually download the version for iPod because that is playable in Quicktime. Not sure what the Mac/Windows format is.

[kevin]

This is the easiest way I have found to grab videos off of Google or youtube.

Google has a button on the page you can use to download....

[kevin]

You can digg the story too, try and get it on the front page:

http://digg.com/political_opinion/Loose_Change_Director_Chuckles_over_Flight_93_brai n_dead_9_11_denier

[Woody-]

Google has a button on the page you can use to download....


Yes, but they want you to install their google video player before you can view it. Also the page I linked to lets you download videos from about 20 or 30 different sites around the net, not just google.

[Childlike Empress]

Is it wrong to feel hate?

I’m sitting here literally shaking, my eyes welling up with tears, because I am so full of hate right now.

I wish I hadn’t listened to that.

God help me, but I hate them. I. Hate. These. People.

I have more respect for the terrorists than I do for people like this. I really do.
Insane.

[gumboot]

:D

Thanks everyone. I am equipping myself for future projects....

-Andrew

ETA. I have installed the firefox plugin and am downloading the google video in avi format :D Also have "SUPER" so I can convert any other footage I discover...

Hmmm... need to buy a new hard drive...

[T.A.M.]

I know you quoted from my post CLE, but please remember, I didn't post those words, i was quoting someone else from another site, and I posted them as a "Quote" myself.

[Childlike Empress]

I know you quoted from my post CLE, but please remember, I didn't post those words, i was quoting someone else from another site, and I posted them as a "Quote" myself.
That's why i added (quoted by) to the Quote.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Insane.

You haven't seen the video, have you?

[MarkyX]

:D

Thanks everyone. I am equipping myself for future projects....

-Andrew

ETA. I have installed the firefox plugin and am downloading the google video in avi format :D Also have "SUPER" so I can convert any other footage I discover...

Hmmm... need to buy a new hard drive...

The AVI might not work with the plugin. I know what you're talking about.

If you want a really high res version, I can ask the guy who uploaded it to give it to you. He originally posted on the Protest Warrior boards on his website (very anti-islamic) and I suggested to him that if he wanted a wider audience, he should put it up Google video (is there something that I am NOT behind when pwning the truth movement ;) )

So again, if you want really want, I can try to hook you up.

[Brainster]

You haven't seen the video, have you?

Hey, now we call all play Chuck Sheen! ;)

[Childlike Empress]

You haven't seen the video, have you?
What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity. If i were a religious person, i would add: amen.

This is getting really ugly. :(

[MarkyX]

Dylan bought this to himself.

Don't even pretend he is an innocent victim. We didn't put a gun at his head while he was laughing at the idea of sharp knives used to hurt people or suggesting Berand Brown Senior wanted to kill his 11 year son.

If jackasses like Alex Jones can tell people that their government worships a giant owl and he runs a site called Arnold Exposed, I am allowed to do the same thing to them. Maybe it's time Dylan and his little petshop crew learn that others can abuse Freedom of Speech as well.

[Brainster]

Insane.

No, actually that seems to be a quite normal reaction (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21900_Loose_Change_Director_Chuckles_over_F light_93#comments). What's insane is applauding these creeps.

[Regnad Kcin]

What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity. If i were a religious person, i would add: amen.

This is getting really ugly. :(You have a bit of nerve. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1802080&postcount=3076)

[JamesB]

What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity. If i were a religious person, i would add: amen.

This is getting really ugly. :(

You cannot kill Dylan Avery, he would just laugh in their face!

[defaultdotxbe]

yes the world is run by a bunch of glorified frat boys

anyone else think of balls and shaft from the movie PCU?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity. If i were a religious person, i would add: amen.

You and I have something in common, we both hope that no actual human beings ruin thier lives for the ultimate cheap shot on Dylan.

But I'm afraid that the only person mongering hatred of Dylan Avery is Dylan Avery.

This is getting really ugly.

Take that up with Dylan, he's the one who needs to grow the @#$% up.

[gumboot]

So again, if you want really want, I can try to hook you up.


Oooh, call me interested. :D

Yeah, it downloaded the avi from google as an html file...:confused: but a quick change of file extension fixed that.

-Andrew

[gtc]

What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity. If i were a religious person, i would add: amen.

This is getting really ugly. :(

Nowhere in that quote does the person who says that he hates Dylan Avery say that he wants to harm Dylan Avery.

I abhor the way you categorise someone who has a strong reaction to Loose Change as being an insane redneck. Yet I have no desire to kill or injure you.

Maybe you should watch the video and tell us what you think about Dylan Avery (and company), their beliefs and actions.

[R.Mackey]

What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity. If i were a religious person, i would add: amen.

This is getting really ugly. :(
Any imagined hidden agenda aside, I actually agree with CLE here.

Avery et. al. are reprehensible, idiotic goons who accuse and slander hundreds, from figures in the public eye to grieving widows, resistant to any temperance from logic, science, or common sense, hell-bent on propagating lies of monumental infamy solely to stoke their egos and line their pockets.

Nonetheless, they are not remotely in the same league as the terrorists themselves -- the very real, tangible, barbaric terrorists that only the most deluded could pretend don't exist. The terrorists are the ones who made so many unfortunate people victims. For the terrorists, I wish nothing less than fair and humiliating trial followed by a lifetime of imprisonment, if not ignominious death on a bleak battlefield.

For Avery and company, I'm thinking a stiff lawsuit, exposure for the frauds that they are, and expulsion back to flipping burgers. But not violence.

As angry as they make us, let us not lose perspective. I suspect many of them are mentally ill and not in complete control of their actions.

ETA: Spelling. Also this refers to comments quoted from elsewhere that suggest violence, not any specific JREF members, if that was unclear.

[The_Fire]

I'm not up on this as much as many of you, but I'm almost sure I read somewhere that in one of the cell phone calls from one of the planes, some form of gas or Mace-like substance was also mentioned. No?

I recently taped a National Geographic 4-episode series on 9/11. They DID mention maze. There were also a recording of one of the highjackers, Atta (the idiot managed to hit the wrong switch when adressing the cabin and ended up broadcasting to the tower as well), claiming that they were going to return to the airport and that if everyone kept calm, it was going to be ok. In other words: The typical normal highjack scenario where "Keep Calm" were sure to keep you alive. Add to that the threat of a bomb and the sight of a passenger/stewardess (depending on which aircraft you were on) bleeding to death on the isle due to a cut throat and I would think that most people would do their utmost to keep out of these idiots way.

The only reason why flight 93, according to the series, managed to fight back, were because several passengers had been in contact with their loved ones and figured out what was happening due to a take-off delay.

What I also found interesting was that the pilot-highjackers didn't just have a cesna-certificate. They also had several hours of simulated flight on real 747 flight simulators behind them (they claimed to wanting to get a certificate) which is much better at simulating the real thing than what the average game-sim is capable of right down to the stick-feedback.

[Abbyas]

This was posted by chucksheen over in LC forum land re: someone asking about the new videos:

The author is MarkyX, the next gravy.

If MarkyX gets to be the next Gravy, then I get to be the next fat man in a suit that that Avery sees talking into a cell phone all the time.

[T.A.M.]

Violence is wrong, so no violence it not the answer here, although on rare occasions in this life, it is needed.

If the young brat pack that created Loose Change would simply retract the movie, and then recreated it with at least somewhat solid facts, that might be a start. So would keeping their horrible mouths shut, or at least respectful of the parties involved in 9/11

[Belz...]

I apologize for the use of the phrase.


For what it's worth, I had a feeling that was the reason why you posted that. Of course, no one on the LC forum has any ounce (or milliliter) or common sense.

[Belz...]

To be honest, I wish they didn't post so early. Most people are viewing only part 1 and thinking that's the entire movie!

You should put links to it in your sig, MarkyX.

[Belz...]

What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering.

You don't ? How about speaking against the US government by calling them mass murderers ? Isn't that hate mongering ?

[Belz...]

If MarkyX gets to be the next Gravy...

The NEXT Gravy ? I hope Gravy realises that there can only be one, and that this means ritual sacrifice.

[Stellafane]

Insane.


Interesting...I've often seen posts without signatures. But this is the first signature I've seen without a post.

[Stellafane]

What does this have to do with my statement? No, i haven't seen it and i will not. I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity. If i were a religious person, i would add: amen.

This is getting really ugly. :(

Did you think it was "insane" when johndoex threatened to shoot billzilla? Did you similarly admonish him at the LC forum?

[Gravy]

The NEXT Gravy ? I hope Gravy realises that there can only be one, and that this means ritual sacrifice.
My fat man has you down in his book.

[kevin]

If MarkyX gets to be the next Gravy, then I get to be the next fat man in a suit that that Avery sees talking into a cell phone all the time.

Do fat men in suits regularly chase after firemen?

[MarkyX]

The NEXT Gravy ? I hope Gravy realises that there can only be one...

http://www.angelic.org/highlander/img/np-ap.jpg

[kevin]

Yes, but they want you to install their google video player before you can view it. Also the page I linked to lets you download videos from about 20 or 30 different sites around the net, not just google.

No they don't, just pick a different format. I download the iPod version and play it back in quicktime. It's just a standard MP4 file.

For other sites your link is great, it just doesn't seem worth copying the URL, going to the other site and waiting for it to pull the video from google then give it to you (and I bet their bandwidth isn't as large as google's....)

[brumsen]

I know the intention and i don't like hate mongering. I really wish from my heart of hearts that none of these insane rednecks kills or injures Dylan Avery. I wish that for the self-satisfied Dylan, the self-satisfied MarkyX, your country and humanity.

This is getting really ugly. :(
I most definitely agree. (I have watched the first part, and am currently undecided whether to watch the rest.)

I think much of the stuff done by people on this board is fairly decent as a response to Loose Change, but I feel that performing character assassination - even if the people targeted lend themselves to it quite easily because of what they say - is really not the way to go. Really Not.

Do you really expect the discussion to become any better by cranking up the sentiments? Answer honestly, now.

[Bronze Dog]

I always make it a point to avoid talking about what I think my opponents are like in unrelated ways. For instance, I may have my suspicions about Loosers' employment level, but I won't waste time on them.

You know, this may not be typical, but I've noticed that Loosers of all stripes tend to think that skeptics like us are all wealthy fat cats getting kickbacks from the Illuminati, while we often have suspicions that they live on the opposite end of that wealth spectrum.

[Gravy]

I most definitely agree. (I have watched the first part, and am currently undecided whether to watch the rest.)

I think much of the stuff done by people on this board is fairly decent as a response to Loose Change, but I feel that performing character assassination - even if the people targeted lend themselves to it quite easily because of what they say - is really not the way to go. Really Not.

Do you really expect the discussion to become any better by cranking up the sentiments? Answer honestly, now.

Brumsen, "character assassination" makes it sound as if it's wrong to point out what these people proudly, defiantly say over the public airwaves. If they had any character, it committed suicide long ago. They are despicable.

[brumsen]

I notice that you ignore my last question, gravy.

[twinstead]

These puerile "truth seekers" NEED to be exposed--and not just for some brownie points in a debate raging in cyberspace.

The disrespect and arrogance they show astounds me.

[Gravy]

I notice that you ignore my last question, gravy.
I think the answer is right there, Brumsen. Could these monumental pricks do more to "crank up the sentiments" of thinking, caring people? I'm going to point that out every single time I see it.

What's your problem with that?

[brumsen]

These puerile "truth seekers" NEED to be exposed--and not just for some brownie points in a debate raging in cyberspace.

The disrespect and arrogance they show astounds me.
So what is this all about. Exposing the characters, or exposing the lies they are presumably telling? I would have thought the last. That's debunking. That's mostly not what MarkyX is doing in the video.

[Gravy]

So what is this all about. Exposing the characters, or exposing the lies they are presumably telling? I would have thought the last. That's debunking. That's mostly not what MarkyX is doing in the video.
Reading the comments from people who are newly exposed to this material, it seems they're furious at what's being said. Good.

[Cuddles]

So what is this all about. Exposing the characters, or exposing the lies they are presumably telling? I would have thought the last. That's debunking. That's mostly not what MarkyX is doing in the video.

The lies have been exposed, but people chose to ignore this. Pointing out the sort of person they are listening may help them recognise the lies for what they are.

[twinstead]

So what is this all about. Exposing the characters, or exposing the lies they are presumably telling? I would have thought the last. That's debunking. That's mostly not what MarkyX is doing in the video.

I don't 100% agree with MarkyX's method perhaps, but it is borne out of frustration that we all feel, and that I can understand. The only thing worse than an unqualified group using half-truths, bad science, lies, rumor, emotion, and ideology to accuse people of mass murder, is a group doing it in an arrogant, condescending, and disrespectful way.

How do you think the family of the victims of that day feel about it?

[brumsen]

I'd say you hit the Mark, MarkyX...I think the intesity level has gone up a few notches....

Could these monumental pricks do more to "crank up the sentiments" of thinking, caring people?

Reading the comments from people who are newly exposed to this material, it seems they're furious at what's being said. Good.

So errm who cranks up the intensity level here?

The lies have been exposed, but people chose to ignore this. Pointing out the sort of person they are listening may help them recognise the lies for what they are.

I take it that that's a 'yes' to my question "do you really expect the discussion to improve as a result of this character assassination?". Oh dear. I have nothing more to say to this :jaw-dropp

[Belz...]

My fat man has you down in his book.

Who ?

http://www.angelic.org/highlander/img/np-ap.jpg

What the...

[MarkyX]

I most definitely agree. (I have watched the first part, and am currently undecided whether to watch the rest.)

I think much of the stuff done by people on this board is fairly decent as a response to Loose Change, but I feel that performing character assassination - even if the people targeted lend themselves to it quite easily because of what they say - is really not the way to go. Really Not.

Do you really expect the discussion to become any better by cranking up the sentiments? Answer honestly, now.

You have to understand brumsen, that Dylan, Alex Jones, and other members of the 9/11 Deniers have already stated their positions by their actions. Alex Jones makes videos labelling the government as devil worshippers who sacrifice children to a huge owl. Dylan Avery refuses to debate with Mark Robets, endores the action of his admins banning second opinions, and is making a documentary using already DEBUNKED logic and non-experts on a day of memorial.

Simply put, they don't want opponents. They don't want to debate. They are not interested in facts, but character assassination that an audience is willing to pay for.

Look at Alex Jones' movie and you can see his political side pop up like a children's book. He claims to be a patriot but dislikes every aspect from his country, whether it's the police officers (can't have above 80 IQ to join) or Sports (GUMBERMENT PLOT).

The Loose Change crew...Dylan couldn't even hit 2nd tier film school and was a well-known troll in Little Green Footballs suggesting a coverup before his movie was released. He was against the GUMBERMENT since day 1 of his movie.

Then we look at the low level masses. Kids or adults ignorant of history or refuse to do their own research. They look for bits of evidence and twist it so they can yell "Inside Job, Inside Job", and slap yet another BUSH = HITLER image on their god damn myspace. If these theorists actually read Debunking911, Myths911, Screw Loose Change blog, and my SCL video site, they wouldn't be a movement.

How many times has Mark Roberts, Brainster, JamesB, and other members around here been accused of working for the government? I used to get a threat EVERY SINGLE DAY a few weeks ago.

They don't want to debate, they don't want to research, and they don't respect the victims (lol Mark Bingham). They are into the theories mainly for character assassination, whether it is another reason to compare Bush to a lovable German leader or government officials working for an owl.

Character assassination is the only language they understand and yesterday, I spoke it clearly to them.

[Gravy]

So errm who cranks up the intensity level here?



I take it that that's a 'yes' to my question "do you really expect the discussion to improve as a result of this character assassination?". Oh dear. I have nothing more to say to this :jaw-dropp
How is anyone's character being assassinated? Are you defending what these creeps say?

eta: Want to know what character assassination is? Insinuating that Bernard Brown deliberately sent his son to die on flight 77. Again, why does it offend you that we point these things out?

[brumsen]

Character assassination is the only language they understand and the only language they are willing to speak. And yesterday, I spoke it clearly to them.
Like you, I am sorry at how ugly it all has become. But now look: you have allowed these threats and insults to get to you, and have lowered yourself to the same level. Is that what you wanted?

The US have a Very Serious problem here. Insufficient level of education to enable the masses to see through nonsense conspiracy mongering; and a government that trades in cover-ups and intransparency. Quite an explosive combination.

[Gravy]

Like you, I am sorry at how ugly it all has become. But now look: you have allowed these threats and insults to get to you, and have lowered yourself to the same level. Is that what you wanted?

Again, how is anyone's character being assassinated by them being quoted in context?

[brumsen]

How is anyone's character being assassinated? Are you defending what these creeps say?
No.

eta: Want to know what character assassination is? Insinuating that Bernard Brown deliberately sent his son to die on flight 77. Again, why does it offend you that we point these things out?
Character assassination, in my book, is making somebody black and thus suggesting that they can't be saying anything true.
They may be despicable, I don't care; what help is it to point it out?

The Bernard Brown thing: it is a claim for which he basically immediately admits that he has no basis for it. OK - just a baseless claim then. Perhaps a despicable one to make, but yet again I don't see what good it does to point that out.

[MarkyX]

Like you, I am sorry at how ugly it all has become. But now look: you have allowed these threats and insults to get to you, and have lowered yourself to the same level. Is that what you wanted?


Of course not, but you make it sound like this was my first option that I picked (points to his signature).

It has come down to this though. This wouldn't have happened if Dylan did respectable research and the movement was willing to debate instead of label. Comparing me to Hitler (or saying I'm worse) while masturbating at the thought of slitting my throat does NOT win you brownie points.

[Brainster]

I most definitely agree. (I have watched the first part, and am currently undecided whether to watch the rest.)

I think much of the stuff done by people on this board is fairly decent as a response to Loose Change, but I feel that performing character assassination - even if the people targeted lend themselves to it quite easily because of what they say - is really not the way to go. Really Not.

Do you really expect the discussion to become any better by cranking up the sentiments? Answer honestly, now.

Any movement which aspires to national prominence and recognition must police itself. This, the 9-11 Denial Movement has refused to do, opting instead for the big tent strategy. But you can't complain then when we point out the extremists in your midst, just as Republicans can't complain when Democrats point to Ann Coulter and Pat Robertson.

Yes, the discussion will become better by cranking up the sentiments. Why? Because Fetzer and Avery and Rowe and Bermas need to learn where the hot buttons are that tick everybody off. I watched through 3/4 of Loose Change the first time, just rolling my eyes. And then they started on Flight 93 and the cellphone calls and I hit the roof.

BTW, this video is now all over the blogs. Dylan's finally getting the attention he wanted. I assume and hope that the only damage will be to his ego and reputation.

[c0rbin]

The Taliban did not fight in the war against the Soviets. They weren't formed until the mid 90s, mostly from Afghan students studying in Pakistani madrassas. Thus the name Taliban, coming from the Arabic word for student, "Talib"

Indeed.

A good book (a little dry, though stuffed with reasoned, on-the-ground info) is "Taliban: Islam, Oil and the New Great Game in Central Asia."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1860648304/sr=1-5/qid=1154614861/ref=sr_1_5/102-8340032-4412127?ie=UTF8&s=books

It covers briefly the historical background, Afgahnistan's history, the rise of the Taliban and touches on OBL.

Ahmed Rashid is a journalist by training and the writing never veers from that background. It possible suffers a bit from that dry-ness as a read, but like I said, full of good info--fact-based and strait-forward

[brumsen]

Of course not, but you make it sound like this was my first option that I picked (points to his signature).
Did I? Not intentionally, anyway. Then again, I don't see the difference that it makes. My point remains.

[Gravy]

They may be despicable, I don't care; what help is it to point it out?
They claim to be making a documentary. I have heard them claim that it's "100% true."

The Bernard Brown thing: it is a claim for which he basically immediately admits that he has no basis for it. OK - just a baseless claim then. Perhaps a despicable one to make, but yet again I don't see what good it does to point that out.
See above. When somone claims to be making a documentary about something as serious as 9/11 but chooses to make wild accusations and chooses not to do the least bit of fact-checking, and claims to have sympathy for the victims while continually smearing them, I think that should be pointed out.

That's not character assassination. That's presenting reality. No one is putting words in their mouths.

[brumsen]

Yes, the discussion will become better by cranking up the sentiments. Why? Because Fetzer and Avery and Rowe and Bermas need to learn where the hot buttons are that tick everybody off. I watched through 3/4 of Loose Change the first time, just rolling my eyes. And then they started on Flight 93 and the cellphone calls and I hit the roof.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand your explanation.

[brumsen]

That's not character assassination. That's presenting reality. No one is putting words in their mouths.
It is presenting reality in a certain way with a certain intention; namely to use things they say which are likely to stir up emotions in order to cast doubt on other things that they also say. I don't think the intention is right.

I wasn't accusing anybody of putting words in their mouths.

[Stellafane]

So errm who cranks up the intensity level here?



I take it that that's a 'yes' to my question "do you really expect the discussion to improve as a result of this character assassination?". Oh dear. I have nothing more to say to this :jaw-dropp

Fine sentiments -- have you similarly chastised johndoex in the LC forum for threatening to shoot billzilla? Because in my book, that's vastly worse than anything I've encountered in this forum. Or is there one set of decorum rules for CT'ers, and another, far stricter one for everyone else?

Really, this "holier than thou" act is getting a bit tired, brumsen.

ETA: Since CT'ers are accusing literally hundreds (if not thousands) of people of mass murder with absolutely no proof, even a father of murdering his own son, doesn't that by itself constitute character assassination? Thus by your lights, CT'ers shouldn't even be doing what they're doing?

[brumsen]

Fine sentiments -- have you similarly chastised johndoex in the LC forum for threatening to shoot billzilla? Because in my book, that's vastly worse than anything I've encountered in this forum. Or is there one set of decorum rules for CT'ers, and another, far stricter one for everyone else?

Really, this "holier than thou" act is getting a bit tired, brumsen.
Are you suggesting I should become active in another forum in order to do this chastising? Get involved in another discussion just to do that? I am not policing the whole internet, thanks.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I most definitely agree. (I have watched the first part, and am currently undecided whether to watch the rest.)

I think much of the stuff done by people on this board is fairly decent as a response to Loose Change, but I feel that performing character assassination - even if the people targeted lend themselves to it quite easily because of what they say - is really not the way to go. Really Not.

Do you really expect the discussion to become any better by cranking up the sentiments? Answer honestly, now.

I think this is worthy of a thoughtful response. First, let me start by clarifying what "character assassination" is:

Character assassination
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Character assassination is an intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation of a particular person, whether living or a historical personage, in such a way as to cause others to develop an extremely negative, unethical or unappealing perception of him or her. By its nature, it involves deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person. For living individuals, this can cause the target to be rejected by his or her community, family, or members of his or her living or work environment. Such acts are typically very difficult to reverse or rectify, therefore the process is correctly likened to a literal assassination of a human life. The damage sustained can be life-long and more, or for historical personages, last for many centuries after their death.

In practice, character assassination usually consists of the spreading of rumors and deliberate misinformation on topics relating to one's morals, integrity, and reputation.

In politics, perhaps the most common form of character assassination is the spread of allegations that a candidate is a liar. Other common themes may include allegations that the candidate is a bad or unpopular member of his family, has a bad relationship with his spouse or children, is disrespected by his former co-workers, or routinely engages in disturbing, socially unacceptable behavior, such as sexual deviancy. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_assassination

Now, by that definition, I don't think what MarkyX put together qualifies as character assassination. We can discuss this aspect further if you disagree with my assessment.

What these leaves us with is the question of whether fighting the 9/11 CT'ers using their own methods of propoganda, multi-media, and presentation is the right thing to do. Though I am not 100% sold on the idea, I think it has merit. Reason being; the appeal of their productions is to a target audience. This is not the same audience as the "Scholars for Truth" or other, more academic, aspects of the movement.

Since this is the case, I think our best bet at getting people to at least realize that LC and its ilk are not the be all, end all, of information on the subject is to produce material that has the same appeal, but shows this. We've seen clearly on the LC board, and from CT'ers who have come here that countering movies with hard science, though accurate, doesn't get through very well. If it did, we would be facing off against Jones and the other Scholars. We can keep presenting the hard science, the facts, the "boring" part of understanding what happened, but for some we are going to have to break through the glitz and get them to consider that there is more information before we can begin presenting that information. One way to do so, is to show that Dylan, et al's, actions are not as altruistic and pure as they try to make it seem.

Additionally, I don't think we're falling into the trap of using ad hom attacks because the information being presented about the movement is relevent. Dylan talking from both sides of his mouth, AFP's history revisionist ties, etc These directly affect the credibility of what they say.

Just my US$0.02

[Stellafane]

Are you suggesting I should become active in another forum in order to do this chastising? Get involved in another discussion just to do that? I am not policing the whole internet, thanks.

If you have any interest in truly improving the tone of discourse, you will indeed go to the Loose Change forum and chastise them there. Othrwise, your motives for posting here are very suspect. Why tell one side they need to improve their manners, and not the other side, who is guilty of far more frequent and serious transgressions? It appears you're yelling at us, and doing absolutely nothing to similarly improve the behavior of CT'ers. Seems a little one sided to me. Why come here at all then?

[T.A.M.]

The fact is that there is a lot of frustration here as well, mainly because anyone who goes over to LC forum and tries to make legitimate points is immediately either banned, or is attacked to the point where they say something that gets them banned. As well, the mods over there PURPOSELY alter links posted by 9/11 debunkers, so visitors over there never get to see our side of the arguments.

As well, I agree that the general public needs to see from what perspective, and from what motives, the creators of such an Influencial movie as LC are coming from. If that means exposing their own character assassination (MarkyX video, for the most part is simply playing audio and video that that group recorded themselves.), then so be it.

[pgwenthold]

I take it that that's a 'yes' to my question "do you really expect the discussion to improve as a result of this character assassination?". Oh dear. I have nothing more to say to this :jaw-dropp

If "character assassination" brings more people into the discussion that weren't there before, then isn't that an improvement?

It would be one thing if character assassination was all there was. Their arguements have already been dismantled, pretty much sentence by sentence, in addition to all the discourse at SLC and 911myths. That is already there, and in the end, that is the meat of the matter.

What MarkyX is doing is bringing more people to the table to eat. And they come hungry.

[kookbreaker]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand your explanation.

It means that if the 911 deniers get enough flak from videos like this, they will learn to rein in their little cutsey quips that make their fellow deniers laugh, but insult the victims of that day.

Examples:

'People are secondary' - Dylan Avery

This means that there is a massive gap in the story he has come up with and rather than answer it, he tries to minimize it with this comment. It is an insult to those who died on the planes. Bad behavior.

'I would have beat the hijackers to death with my luggage' -Fetzer

This is an insult to all the victims on the planes, and an insult to all those who have ever been victims of hijackings prior to 911. Why didn't anyone beat DB Cooper to death with their luggage? Fetzer is accusing all the passengers of cowardice with monday morning Qarterbacking.

"The so-called passengers were likely government employees" (paraphrased and I forget by who, the rich guy)

Come ON Brumsen. Is this what you want your movement to be telling people?

The fact that these comments were made shows that there is a human disconnect on the part of the 911 deniers. The deniers already have a host of problems with entanglements with neo-nazis and anti-semites that they have refused to purge. Add to this a demonstrated contempt for the victims as shown above and you are seeing a movement that needs to get its act together, but refuses to.

[MarkyX]

'People are secondary' - Dylan Avery


That wasn't Dylan, it was Jason Bermas.


"The so-called passengers were likely government employees"

Jimmy Walter, the same man who has a million dollar challenge. One of these conditions is proving explosions weren't used to bring down the towers in 8.4 seconds :eek:

http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm

[kookbreaker]

That wasn't Dylan, it was Jason Bermas.


I stand corrected, but those guys seem pretty well joined.

[T.A.M.]

I noticed over at LGF they can no longer see the film, as their link was to the Hot Air location, which has since been moved to their "Top Picks". If anyone here has a membership at LGF, perhaps someone could post the link to the youtube or google video site for them...

[MarkyX]

I'm looking at the thread right now talking about little ol' me.

Uh, they do know that I already made a video that goes line-by-line of their famous documentary, right? And that I write a website listing my sources and so forth?

I've already did the debunking ordeal. Idiots.

And they say I don't debunk their claims...yeah I did.

- Dubai myth
- Jets were scrambled
- Bombs on Flight 93
- Mark Bingham's mother and her aunt
- Barbara Olsen using collect call
- Bodies found in the pentagon
- Saudi Arabia embassy for the hijackers
- Edna and the fires
- A fire safety expert agreeing with the official story
- Kevin Ryan being an idiot
- UL did not certify steel
- "Pull" from Firefighters
- WTC7 southside
- WTC7 was LEANING
- Todd Beamer's "Not that importent"

And probably a few more.

To say I did not present facts is BS. Just another example of BASELESS character assassination from these idiots.

[60hzxtl]

Jimmy Walter, the same man who has a million dollar challenge. One of these conditions is proving explosions weren't used to bring down the towers in 8.4 seconds


His challenge is no challenge - it requires you to prove a negative.

His money, (the joker has it!) is safe.

[juryjone]

If you have any interest in truly improving the tone of discourse, you will indeed go to the Loose Change forum and chastise them there. Othrwise, your motives for posting here are very suspect. Why tell one side they need to improve their manners, and not the other side, who is guilty of far more frequent and serious transgressions? It appears you're yelling at us, and doing absolutely nothing to similarly improve the behavior of CT'ers. Seems a little one sided to me. Why come here at all then?

I can tell you one thing he doesn't seem to be here to do: answer questions. brumsen, sould you please answer the questions Stellafane and I asked you about this (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1807593&postcount=3375) post?

[brumsen]

If you have any interest in truly improving the tone of discourse, you will indeed go to the Loose Change forum and chastise them there. Othrwise, your motives for posting here are very suspect. Why tell one side they need to improve their manners, and not the other side, who is guilty of far more frequent and serious transgressions? It appears you're yelling at us, and doing absolutely nothing to similarly improve the behavior of CT'ers. Seems a little one sided to me. Why come here at all then?
Please read this thread (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=771639&postcount=166) before accusing me of one-sidedness.

[brumsen]

brumsen, sould you please answer the questions Stellafane and I asked you about this (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1807593&postcount=3375) post?
OK then.

I'm with Stellafane in wanting to know your reasoning behind this statement. I realize I haven't gone through the NIST report word for word, but in skimming through it I don't find anything that would, even "with broad brushstrokes", say that the government believes Islam is the enemy. Extremists, yes, but you don't see extremists of any stripe saying "Let's sit down and work this thing out." Extremists do things like...well, what they did.

Also, by "with broad brushtrokes" do you mean "in so many words"? In other words, are you saying that the reports don't say Islam is the enemy explicitly, but rather implies it? If so, you'd really have to come up with a lot of verbiage to justify the implication...
I did not mean the NIST report, since that's just about the collapses; nor even the 9/11 commission report. I meant US foreign policy since 9/11, which has been based on a certain picture of "the enemy".
Agreed, though, that it's not quite as simple as something that could boil down to "islam is the enemy".

[brumsen]

Come ON Brumsen. Is this what you want your movement to be telling people?
MY movement? What on earth are you talking about?

[R.Mackey]

Well, for my opinion, let me toe the line here... I did watch all of MarkyX's new presentation, and on the whole I think it was well done. About 80% is simply echoing their own public performances which is completely fair game.

The remainder are things that I didn't fully understand, some segues and interludes that didn't feel connected -- for instance, the rabble-rousing terrorist videos. I assume the point was "look Dylan, these people are real," but the connection was weak. I don't think you want to attack both the Loosers and the terrorists in the same breath, since I don't see them as morally equivalent. Although if you can substantiate a link to Holocaust denial (it might there for Dylan, I don't know if there is one for the others, surely not all of them) you could try lumping them together...

This film is largely an appeal to emotion. However, it's also asking mindless viewers of Loose Change to consider the source. That's still fair. First thing I read in the newspaper is the opinion section, second thing I do is get some background on the people writing those opinions -- always consider the source.

Anyway, I do appreciate a good propaganda film, and MarkyX, yours works well. Got me nice and angry. Still, I see no cause for violence, and anyone motivated to violence after seeing your presentation is out of bounds, period. I think we can all agree on that. I see the purpose of your presentation as convincing the novice viewer that Avery and company aren't the altruistic defenders of freedom that they claim. This happens to be a fact, so "character assassination" it is not.

---

Cliff's Notes: Good film MarkyX, but some people will take this the wrong way. It's a powerful subject.

[Gravy]

It is presenting reality in a certain way with a certain intention; namely to use things they say which are likely to stir up emotions in order to cast doubt on other things that they also say. I don't think the intention is right.

I wasn't accusing anybody of putting words in their mouths.
Well, I can tell you that several things motivated me to put together my "Loose Change Creators Speak" compilation.

I knew how nasty and ignorant many of the comments in LC were, and I pointed these out to its creators in a lengthy critique. I also pointed out dozens of factual errors, misleading statements, logical fallacies, misuses of images and quotes, etc. I did that because I had the impression that these guys didn't know how lousy their methods were. I wanted to sober them up.

It didn't work. When I heard the things they were saying on the radio recently, I couldn't believe it. In a few areas they improved slightly, such as Avery begrudgingly admitting that there probably were real passengers on the planes. But in many cases they've gotten worse, embellishing their fantastical (and thoroughly refuted) theories with even more absurd details.

So I started listening to the recorded interviews that are linked and promoted on their website. I didn't have to dig for this stuff: they're PROUD of it. The first thing I listened to was the piece that MarkyX and I started our compilations with: Avery saying that he would laugh in the faces of five armed hijackers, Avery laughing while the host insulted Chick Burlingame and his sister, Avery mocking the hijackers' murderous assaults, gleefully comparing boxcutters to butter knives, and saying that it was ridiculous that anyone could believe that these hijackings and murders took place.

And that was just the beginning. So I transcribed as much of their madness as I could bear. I thought it was important that they, and their supporters, be reminded of just how cruelly ignorant they are.

I also offered to sit down with the LC guys for a day and go over exactly where they were wrong (I gave them my critiques but I assume they didn't read them). Avery's response: "You're a waste of my time."

A couple of days ago Avery posted on LC that Mark Roberts isn't my real name, and that I often travel with a fat man in a suit who talks on a cell phone a lot. I've met Avery once. These people are stark, raving stupid, and as long as they continue to lie about 9/11, I'm going to call them on it.

Loose Change is just part of this equation. Fetzer, the former teacher of "critical thinking," is even louder, loonier, and just as offensive, although as far as I know he hasn't made any videos, thank Ed. Alex Jones is off the charts with paranoid hysterics. Steven Jones' 9/11 "research" is a mockery of the scientific method. Judy Wood laughingly compares the Twin Towers to trees with elves living in them. Morgan Reynolds doesn't think planes hit the Twin Towers. Jeff King thinks "Tesla weapons" may have brought down the Towers. Killtown, Hufschmidt, and Rajter show that they are well-rounded conspiracy theorists by also denying the Holocaust. David Ray Griffin does not believe that flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Go to Ground Zero on Saturdays and hear how the FDNY was "in on it" and how the terrorists were victims, just like the people they murdered and the families they tore apart.

And on, and on.

These people's characters are plainly exposed by their own proud words.

The "9-11 Truth Movement" is an absolute disgrace to the truth. Don't like the tough talk? Too bad. These creeps have earned zero respect.

[Regnad Kcin]

...The US have a Very Serious problem here. Insufficient level of education to enable the masses to see through nonsense conspiracy mongering; and a government that trades in cover-ups and intransparency. Quite an explosive combination.You are aware that anti-official-story conspiracy theorists have been flourishing around the world, no?

[kookbreaker]

MY movement? What on earth are you talking about?

Poor choice of words on my part perhaps, but the question remains: Is this what you want for a 'truth movement'?

[MarkyX]

I assume the point was "look Dylan, these people are real," but the connection was weak.


The connection I tried to bring (and I admit, it's weak) was that this fat texan man is bullhorning in Chicago about "invading the planet" by the "New World Order" but then I place a few clips that go against his statement and show how ignorant (or dismissal) Alex Jones is. Also, it is supposed show something that you won't see in the western media. I probably went over my head at that part, but it disguists me that people don't see that these muslim extermists aren't just in the Middle East. Just a few days ago, Montreal, my home town, some people were attacked by muslim extermists for siding with Israel. In Toronto, I hear protests from Muslims saying Sharia law should be enforced in Canada. That's why I wanted to show these clips. I want people to start being AWARE of what's going as opposed to simply ignorning it.

The general message of this scene was "Who are you going to believe...Alex Jones on a bullhorn, or the dozens upon dozens of islamic fundies that have commited numerous attacks for the past few years and saying that Islam will rule over the world" ?

Again, I admit that it is a weakpoint, but I am trying to show how ignorant they were at those clips. I think the "Freedom Fighters" bit worked much better.

[R.Mackey]

I probably went over my head at that part, but it disguists me that people don't see that these muslim extermists aren't just in the Middle East. Just a few days ago, Montreal, my home town, some people were attacked by muslim extermists for siding with Israel. In Toronto, I hear protests from Muslims saying Sharia law should be enforced in Canada. That's why I wanted to show these clips. I want people to start being AWARE of what's going as opposed to simply ignorning it.
Your point is correct and well taken, however I think it dilutes the message that 9/11 Deniers are not to be trusted. This is a separate topic. You might want to couch it with some words of introduction, or link the two by saying "these are real people with their own, non-US media outlets; they are not a fabrication of the CIA." Just a suggestion.

[MarkyX]

Well too late for that.

I don't think it would affect the overall rating. If Loose Change can be accepted, then I'm sure this will go along fine.

[chipmunk stew]

I most definitely agree. (I have watched the first part, and am currently undecided whether to watch the rest.)

I think much of the stuff done by people on this board is fairly decent as a response to Loose Change, but I feel that performing character assassination - even if the people targeted lend themselves to it quite easily because of what they say - is really not the way to go. Really Not.

Do you really expect the discussion to become any better by cranking up the sentiments? Answer honestly, now.Character assassination is spreading rumors about drugs or something.

This is merely playing back these guys' own words in the context of images that reveal how thoughtless they are. It might be character suicide, but you can hardly call it character assassination.

I think the discussion will become better once this makes the rounds, yes. The reason is, more people will think twice about what they are saying or how they are framing it. Free speech cuts both ways.

edit: Are the news outlets who reported Mel Gibson's antisemitic remarks guilty of character assassination?

[60hzxtl]

Free speech cuts both ways.

As does the internet, and its memory.

[brumsen]

I think this is worthy of a thoughtful response. First, let me start by clarifying what "character assassination" is:
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_assassination

Character assassination is an intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation of a particular person, whether living or a historical personage, in such a way as to cause others to develop an extremely negative, unethical or unappealing perception of him or her. By its nature, it involves deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person.[...]
In practice, character assassination usually consists of the spreading of rumors and deliberate misinformation on topics relating to one's morals, integrity, and reputation.

Now, by that definition, I don't think what MarkyX put together qualifies as character assassination. We can discuss this aspect further if you disagree with my assessment.
I'll take up your offer.

I find the wikipedia article unsatisfactory in that it says two different things. The definition mentions "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts" in an "intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation". I am not wholly convinced that MarkyX's video does not qualify as such, even if it does not engage in "spreading rumors and deliberate misinformation".

In short, it seems that I used the term "character assassination" according to the definition given here, and people react to me as if I accused MarkyX of putting things into their mouths or spreading deliberate misinformation about the Loosers. I did not intend to accuse him of that.
Nonetheless and moreover, I intended to say that it is not a good thing to engage in character assassination in, let's call it 'the narrow sense'. I am disappointed to find that most here appear to disagree with me on that.

[brumsen]

Poor choice of words on my part perhaps, but the question remains: Is this what you want for a 'truth movement'?
Not really, no. But how to change that is the question.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'll take up your offer.

I find the wikipedia article unsatisfactory in that it says two different things. The definition mentions "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts" in an "intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation". I am not wholly convinced that MarkyX's video does not qualify as such, even if it does not engage in "spreading rumors and deliberate misinformation".

In short, it seems that I used the term "character assassination" according to the definition given here, and people react to me as if I accused MarkyX of putting things into their mouths or spreading deliberate misinformation about the Loosers. I did not intend to accuse him of that.
Nonetheless and moreover, I intended to say that it is not a good thing to engage in character assassination in, let's call it 'the narrow sense'. I am disappointed to find that most here appear to disagree with me on that.

Can you give an example from MarkyX's production that you feel qualifies as "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts"?

[Brainster]

Not really, no. But how to change that is the question.

Get the message out that any attacks on the passengers or victims undermines the movement. Both Gravy and I started working against Loose Change because of the way Dylan mocked passengers such as Mark Bingham, Todd Beamer and Flight Attendant Betty Ong. I tend to think that the childish attacks (including Fetzer's claim that he would have beaten the hijackers to death with his luggage) reflect frustration over the fact that the passengers are the biggest obstacle to the CT proposed by LC and others. Hence they lash out at the passengers.

[Belz...]

A couple of days ago Avery posted on LC that Mark Roberts isn't my real name, and that I often travel with a fat man in a suit who talks on a cell phone a lot.

Okay, now I get it, Abby.

[Bronze Dog]

Get the message out that any attacks on the passengers or victims undermines the movement. Both Gravy and I started working against Loose Change because of the way Dylan mocked passengers such as Mark Bingham, Todd Beamer and Flight Attendant Betty Ong. I tend to think that the childish attacks (including Fetzer's claim that he would have beaten the hijackers to death with his luggage) reflect frustration over the fact that the passengers are the biggest obstacle to the CT proposed by LC and others. Hence they lash out at the passengers.
Reminds me of people who think that all the doctors on Earth can be cowed by the Big Pharma CEOs. It seems to show a low opinion of humanity in general.

[Dog Town]

Next

[chipmunk stew]

I will be on WTKK in Boston at around 5:00 PM tonight (http://www.wtkk.com/) to discuss this latest development...
(http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/one_in_3_americans_say_u_s__aided_9_11_nationalnew s_thomas_hargrove______and_guido_h__stempel_iii.ht m)
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2006/08/gotta-run.html

I'm trying to find out if they'll be taking call-ins.

[Dog Town]

Duhh here from SLC. Love this site here. This is another bunch of BS to go along with the"deep" norad coverup. This pilot claims to have seen a globalhawk hit the Pentagon. He watched LC and had to come forward. It's lighting up the board at ATS. You guys are the shizak! You guys prob saw this allready.Just trying to share. Wont let me leave url, so here it be
no www,just //vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1534

[negativ]

Did you think it was "insane" when johndoex threatened to shoot billzilla? Did you similarly admonish him at the LC forum?

Are these thread(s) still available over there? I was trying to look for posts by BillZilla and apparently either their search function sucks, or my ability to use it does. I'm OK with either one. A nice, hand-holding link would be appreciated.

[kookbreaker]

Duhh here from SLC. Love this site here. This is another bunch of BS to go along with the"deep" norad coverup. This pilot claims to have seen a globalhawk hit the Pentagon. He watched LC and had to come forward. It's lighting up the board at ATS. You guys are the shizak! You guys prob saw this allready.Just trying to share. Wont let me leave url, so here it be
no www,just //vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1534

So FIVE YEARS after the fact they get one 'deathbed' witness who has no evidence beyond his word.

I do not think this is reliable.

[realitybites]

Are these thread(s) still available over there? I was trying to look for posts by BillZilla and apparently either their search function sucks, or my ability to use it does. I'm OK with either one. A nice, hand-holding link would be appreciated.
Go to page 12 of this thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660). Think it's around there somewhere.

[Dog Town]

Agree with ya there Kook. It is going to be used by the CTers more and more.They think they have found the mother of all witnesses, to go along with the "deep" Norad ass covering joke.

[60hzxtl]

So FIVE YEARS after the fact they get one 'deathbed' witness who has no evidence beyond his word.

I do not think this is reliable.

Here a poster claims to be Danner's son, and debunks the confession. Might be the first bit of truth from the truthers!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8567

[kookbreaker]

Go to page 12 of this thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7660). Think it's around there somewhere.

Hmm, yah.


You can do as you damn well please.. .but if you come to my land trying to push your rhetoric on me... or even try to force your rhetoric on me, i'll be extremely proud to introduce you to the Second Amendment.


This was in regards to him saying that Billzilla had not right to debate him since he was not an American (but listed Americans who were 'allowed', Billzilla said he'd do as he pleased. Then the above was written as a response.

So since the presumption is that he'll debate Abby, Gravy and MarkyX, at ground zero, but will shoot Billzilla if he brings those deadly and foreign 'words' to the same place.

[realitybites]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9536

The CTers are doing their usual "happy dance of joy" for this find. Anyone here have info on this?

[Gravy]

Duhh here from SLC. Love this site here. This is another bunch of BS to go along with the"deep" norad coverup. This pilot claims to have seen a globalhawk hit the Pentagon. He watched LC and had to come forward. It's lighting up the board at ATS. You guys are the shizak! You guys prob saw this allready.Just trying to share. Wont let me leave url, so here it be
no www,just //vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1534

Hi Dog Town. Samuel Denner, the "new" witness, is a fraud. Well, that goes without saying, but even his son says so. The son posted to a thread on the LC forum and Russell and Merc have corresponded with him and confirmed the story. A sad story, although supposedly the dad wants to "come clean."

I'd point you to the thread at LC but I'm IP banned. You can use the search feature to find it.

[Brainster]

Here a poster claims to be Danner's son, and debunks the confession. Might be the first bit of truth from the truthers!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8567

Yeah, this story stinks to high heaven. I did a little googling of Danner, and found this article (http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=90752) by good old Christopher Bollyn:

When he got to the "crash" site, he was mystified when he did not see any luggage or parts of a 100-ton aircraft at all.

If he saw a small plane with no windows, why would he be "mystified" not to see luggage or parts of a 100-ton aircraft?

[Brainster]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9536

The CTers are doing their usual "happy dance of joy" for this find. Anyone here have info on this?

Bingham was the last person on the plane (http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp); both Flight 93 and United 93 have scenes of him dashing through the airport. IIRC, the only reason he got on the plane was the delay; they had reportedly closed the door and re-opened it to let him on.

One passenger was late. Mark Bingham had overslept and his friend, Matthew Hall, drove madly from Manhattan to Newark. They screeched to a halt outside Terminal A at 7:40. Bingham leapt from the car, lugging the old, blue-and-gold canvas bag he'd used as a rugby player at the University of California at Berkeley a decade earlier.

United attendants reopened the door to the boarding ramp and let him on the plane.

Not that this will impress the "Sacred List" idiots. Also, note that none of them are remarking on the presence of the hijackers on that list.

Oh, and welcome, Dog Town!

[Gravy]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9536

The CTers are doing their usual "happy dance of joy" for this find. Anyone here have info on this?
Correct. From 911myths.com: (http://www.911myths.com/html/the_passengers.html)
Mark Bingham was last to board the plane, having arrived late and nearly missed the flight.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,610355,00.html
And, on flight 175, five passengers are missing from the manifest. All were apparently flying for free on standby because of friends and relatives who were airline employees.

eta: you're quick on the draw, Brainster!

[kookbreaker]

So....

If the CT'ers were right. Then,

Mark Bingham does not exists, or is hidden somewhere.

Yet he is praised as a hero, and his sacrifice has been used to further many gay rights issues, helped by his open homosexuality.

Yet, this whole conspiracy thing is part of the eeeevil neo-con agenda, correct?

Adding gay rights was part of their agenda?

Whatever.

[Dog Town]

Can't go to LC either,I was banned for life in less than 20 min. Interested in the guys son calling bull hockey on pops,though.Anyone here repost any of it elsewhere. I wear, being banned from LC as badge of honor.Where are the lawyers ready to sue them? His statements about that kids father, has got to warrant cleaning out the LC closets.I will enjoy when the brat is out of money.His camp will start singing like birds,O' the stories that stalker of a girlfriend must have to tell.

[brumsen]

Can you give an example from MarkyX's production that you feel qualifies as "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts"?
I'm not sure about this one, but I'll just float it:
what about the Pentagon body parts. There's a radio interview playing with Avery saying the government has shown no evidence that there were bodies in the Pentagon. The videos show what I believe to be pictures used as exhibits in Moussaoui's trial. Question: is the radio interview a recording from before or after that trial? It's not clear, but important - if that evidence was not available at the time of the interview, Avery could hardly be accused of lying, but it is implied here that he did.

[realitybites]

Correct. From 911myths.com: (http://www.911myths.com/html/the_passengers.html)

And, on flight 175, five passengers are missing from the manifest. All were apparently flying for free on standby because of friends and relatives who were airline employees.

eta: you're quick on the draw, Brainster!
Thanks Gravy/Brain(ster).

I was just under the impression flight manifests were fairly concrete. I would think, regardless of stand-by or being late, you're name would still be on the manifest no? I guess I'm asking when the manifest is compiled. When people book the flight or when they actually board it?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

So....

If the CT'ers were right. Then,

Mark Bingham does not exists, or is hidden somewhere.

Yet he is praised as a hero, and his sacrifice has been used to further many gay rights issues, helped by his open homosexuality.

Yet, this whole conspiracy thing is part of the eeeevil neo-con agenda, correct?

Adding gay rights was part of their agenda?

Whatever.

Estimated time till someone jokingly suggests adding PFLAG, GLAAD or other gay lobby groups to Markys list of organizations that were in on it; 00:00:00 (this post is it).

Estimated time till one of the neo-nazis at LC or elsewhere (that the LC mods don't seem interested in purging for the good of the movement) actually seriously suggests that the gay lobby was in on it resulting in a massive collective /foreheadsmack from the skeptics; ??:??:??

[Brainster]

Correct. From 911myths.com: (http://www.911myths.com/html/the_passengers.html)

And, on flight 175, five passengers are missing from the manifest. All were apparently flying for free on standby because of friends and relatives who were airline employees.

eta: you're quick on the draw, Brainster!

Flight 93's something of a hobby of mine. In the days after 9-11 I found myself severely depressed, and I didn't seem to be coming out of it as the days went by. Saturday after the 11th was the worst; I watched the services and just wept uncontrollably. I really thought I was risking my own mental health, and yet I couldn't pull myself away from the story.

So on Sunday I decided to focus solely on the one inspirational story from that awful day. And when I started to look into the passengers, I found little connections to my own life. Todd Beamer lived in Cranbury, New Jersey, which is where my sister lives. Jeremy Glick grew up in Upper Saddle River, which was the town we shared our high school with. When I saw that, I sent a quick email to my sister, noting that he might have been a Northern Highlands graduate. She wrote back that no, she knew he wasn't because her husband had worked with Glick's dad and they had met at a company picnic and the subject came up; the Glicks went to private schools. What are the odds of that? Glick also was a big Green Lantern (http://livingontulsatime.com/wtc/Flight93.html) fan as a kid; I also followed GL.

And my depression began to lift. As a result I've followed the Flight 93 story ever since. In fact, it was when the Loosers started spamming the United 93 message boards that I discovered Dylan's cruddy little film.

[kevin]

Estimated time till one of the neo-nazis at LC or elsewhere (that the LC mods don't seem interested in purging for the good of the movement) actually seriously suggests that the gay lobby was in on it resulting in a massive collective /foreheadsmack from the skeptics; ??:??:??

I'm waiting for the suggestion the gov't picked him as a "victim" because he was gay and they hate gays.

[apathoid]

Duhh here from SLC. Love this site here. This is another bunch of BS to go along with the"deep" norad coverup. This pilot claims to have seen a globalhawk hit the Pentagon. He watched LC and had to come forward. It's lighting up the board at ATS. You guys are the shizak! You guys prob saw this allready.Just trying to share. Wont let me leave url, so here it be
no www,just //vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1534
I'm suprised there arent more of these whackjob CTs "coming forward" to be honest. We've already seen how anybody can join 911SfT as an associate member and proclaim to be anything they want(like pilots and structural engineers, or both)

[realitybites]

I'm waiting for the suggestion the gov't picked him as a "victim" because he was gay and they hate gays.
I think if the government truly hated gays, they woulda made them the hijackers instead of one of the heroes.

Instead taking over the planes with boxcutters it'd be stilettos, body glitter, and Cher albums.

ETA: I hope no one takes offense to that. Just a little bit of levity on my part. If it's in poor taste, I apologize.

[MarkyX]

I'm not sure about this one, but I'll just float it:
what about the Pentagon body parts. There's a radio interview playing with Avery saying the government has shown no evidence that there were bodies in the Pentagon. The videos show what I believe to be pictures used as exhibits in Moussaoui's trial. Question: is the radio interview a recording from before or after that trial? It's not clear, but important - if that evidence was not available at the time of the interview, Avery could hardly be accused of lying, but it is implied here that he did.

During. They were talking about "using the tapes as evidence" and making fun of the "wings folding into the hole at the pentagon" from the commission report on the same show.

In other words, yes, they IGNORED this set of evidence.

[MikeW]

And, on flight 175, five passengers are missing from the manifest. All were apparently flying for free on standby because of friends and relatives who were airline employees.
I wouldn't propose that as anything too definitive, it's nothing but a guess on my part, and I have no idea if it's valid. It's just that I noticed two worked for UAL, one was given a free ticket by UAL, and two had a relative who was "connected" to UAL, & it's the only connection I could come up with.

On that point, though, does anyone here know someone who works for United? It would be interesting to have an inside view on what those documents show, whether they are manifests or lists from some other system, if there are reasons why someone might not be on them.

[Brainster]

I'm not sure about this one, but I'll just float it:
what about the Pentagon body parts. There's a radio interview playing with Avery saying the government has shown no evidence that there were bodies in the Pentagon. The videos show what I believe to be pictures used as exhibits in Moussaoui's trial. Question: is the radio interview a recording from before or after that trial? It's not clear, but important - if that evidence was not available at the time of the interview, Avery could hardly be accused of lying, but it is implied here that he did.

That's Korey Rowe. But it's hard to argue that Dylan's been honest with his quote-mining efforts on Wally Miller, or the claim that Marvin Bush was in charge of Security at the WTC on the day of the attacks (made in the Extra Footage segment).

But would you at least agree then that Dylan's lying if the next edition of Loose Change (due out any day now) continues to claim that there are no bodies and body parts at the Pentagon?

[realitybites]

That's Korey Rowe. But it's hard to argue that Dylan's been honest with his quote-mining efforts on Wally Miller, or the claim that Marvin Bush was in charge of Security at the WTC on the day of the attacks (made in the Extra Footage segment).

But would you at least agree then that Dylan's lying if the next edition of Loose Change (due out any day now) continues to claim that there are no bodies and body parts at the Pentagon?
Speaking of the upcoming release... any further info on what or how many theater chains will be carrying it? :rolleyes:

[MarkyX]

Guess what's up on Google Video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147&hl=en

VOTE and share :)

[MarkyX]

And if anyone wants to download the Obsession video, which is now taken from Google Video..

http://somebodyhelpme.info/OBSESSION.avi.torrent

700 megs.

IPOD version: http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/413073/2325666/ - 300 megs.

[T.A.M.]

http://canadawantsthetruth911.blogspot.com/

On this persons site, the latest post talks of an offer made by Veterans of 9/11 Truth to the committee who put together the PM article Debunking 9/11 myths, for an open debate....interesting. I'd like to see that happen. I don't think the CTers know what they are in for.

also, here is the thread post from Danner's son, as requested above:

" Hey, for those of you who just listened to the Michael Collins Piper show.....I am Matt Danner.(sam danner's son) I really had no desire to get involved in this mess, but here i am.

For the record, my fathers story is pretty much a lie. He was at home during the 9/11 attacks, infact he is the one who woke me up to tell me what was going on.
I have been battling with him this entire week about coming clean with his story.....and well....since he didn't call into the Michael Piper show tonight....i felt i had to get this problem taken care of. I'm seriously sorry that my dad totally deceived all of you. I am a firm beleiver in telling the truth...so...here i am. I just talked to my father right after i was on RBNlive...and he is going to make a public confession.

Once again, everyone, please find it in your hearts to forgive my father.........i know everyone is searching for the truth....and things like this only get in the way. I really want nothing more to do with this whole debacle....as i truly did not want my name dragged into this mess. So other than posting in this post.....I seriously plan to stay out.

Hopefully, my dad will come clean on-air in the VERY near future.

Special thanks to Russell Pickering, and Merc. your support really helped.

-matt "

So there you go.

[60hzxtl]

Speaking of the upcoming release... any further info on what or how many theater chains will be carrying it? :rolleyes:


Last one out of the High School Auditorium please turn out the lights. . .

[Regnad Kcin]

I think if the government truly hated gays, they woulda made them the hijackers instead of one of the heroes.

Instead taking over the planes with boxcutters it'd be stilettos, body glitter, and Cher albums.

ETA: I hope no one takes offense to that. Just a little bit of levity on my part. If it's in poor taste, I apologize.Well, it's clear that Dick Cheney's daughter had to have whispered in his ear, "Dr. Evil...I mean, Dad, while you're plotting your nefarious scheme, could you maybe make one of my rainbow brethren one of the heros?"

I mean, duh.

[T.A.M.]

Oh, and with respect to the Danner issue, it seems the LC crew have accepted it was false. Even the notorious JDX has accepted it, and was almost...human in replying to the man's son.

[realitybites]

... and was almost...human in replying to the man's son.
I'm gonna need a link for that one TAM, sorry. Not that I don't trust you.

Just a little too much for me to accept.

[MarkyX]

almost...human in replying to the man's son.


I am not buying it. We need James Randi here to solve this...

WITH SCIENCE

[kookbreaker]

Oh, and with respect to the Danner issue, it seems the LC crew have accepted it was false. Even the notorious JDX has accepted it, and was almost...human in replying to the man's son.

Meaning he didn't threaten to shoot the guy.

[apathoid]

I wouldn't propose that as anything too definitive, it's nothing but a guess on my part, and I have no idea if it's valid. It's just that I noticed two worked for UAL, one was given a free ticket by UAL, and two had a relative who was "connected" to UAL, & it's the only connection I could come up with.

On that point, though, does anyone here know someone who works for United? It would be interesting to have an inside view on what those documents show, whether they are manifests or lists from some other system, if there are reasons why someone might not be on them.

Mike, I dont know how UA does things, but at my airline there are numerous passenger lists. One thing I dont see on the manifests on your site is a listing of NR or NRSA, those are standby passengers. I've pulled up a company SOP and snipped this part out...

Passenger Name Lists
A*R/ET Print Electronic Ticket Manifest
LX1234/30MAR-D Cancelled Passengers
LD1224/30MAR-D Confirmed Passengers
LB1234/30MAR-D Convention Passengers
LM1234/30MAR-D Convention Groups
LF1234/30MAR-DF* Frequent Flyer List
LF1234/30MAR-DF Elite Frequent Flyer List
LG1234/30MAR-D Large Groups
LN1234/30MAR-D NRSA Names
LO1234/30MAR-D Outbound Connects
LP1234/30MAR-D Priority Waitlist
LU1234/30MAR-D Un-ticketed passengers
LW1234/30MAR-D Waitlist Passengers



I think its possible that the lists didnt include the non-revenue passengers because, well, they arent paying passengers and might show up on a seperate list.
Also, the gate agents usually run the passenger list and other dispatch paperwork down to the airplane no less than 5 minutes prior to departure, so stragglers wouldnt appear on the printed list - but they probably appear in the electronic lists....

Departure
Release Reserved Seats* 15 minutes before departure
Release Connection Seats* 10 minutes before departure Communicate with IROP / leadership team
Release Checked In Seats* 10 minutes before departure
Clear Coach Standbys * 15 - 25 minutes before departure
Clear First Class Standbys* 15 minutes before departure
Reconcile selectee passengers 10 minutes before departure A*RS
Print Weight and Data Record (WDR)* 10 minutes before departure JKTS
Print Flight Attendant Departure Report* 10 minutes before departure AFAD
Walk paperwork down 5 minutes before departure Scan loading bridge for tagged items
Dispatch aircraft 2 minutes before departure Collect flight release / ensure that the “cabin is secure”

I'll study the lists/manifests for the four flights and see if maybe there is something that sticks out..

[MikeW]

Mike, I dont know how UA does things, but at my airline there are numerous passenger lists. One thing I dont see on the manifests on your site is a listing of NR or NRSA, those are standby passengers.
Aha, thanks... So that would probably apply to the 2 employees, yes? And the guy who was given a first class ticket by "a friend who worked at United" would presumably be listed under non-revenue, too. Maybe the others got tickets the same way, from their relative, or perhaps they were just late? Seems like my first guess might work out after all.

Also, the gate agents usually run the passenger list and other dispatch paperwork down to the airplane no less than 5 minutes prior to departure, so stragglers wouldnt appear on the printed list - but they probably appear in the electronic lists....
So these could be a fax of a printed list. It seems odd they'd fax those to the FBI, but then maybe there were other documents sent along with it that gave the full picture.

I'll study the lists/manifests for the four flights and see if maybe there is something that sticks out..
Thanks!

[Dog Town]

APATH.Thanks for the info on DANNER.Posted this info over at ATS. Went over like a Led Zeppelin, to quote John Henry Bonham! Nuh uhh! MIB etc.....LOL LOL

[Brainster]

I'm gonna need a link for that one TAM, sorry. Not that I don't trust you.

Just a little too much for me to accept.

Just keep scrolling (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8567).

This is something I have talked about in the past. Apparently two of the Deniers who disagree with the missile into the Pentagon part got him to post after they noticed inconsistencies in Danner's story (and probably after hearing him call into a radio show). So they did the typical excellent research we see from Deniers on the parts of the CT they disagree with. Some interesting vidcaps from Pickering there.

Tough situation for the son. If I were able to post on the Looser board, I'd tell him not to worry about posting those voice mails; I'm sure they say what he claims.

[T.A.M.]

Direct quote from JDX at bottom of confession thread...

" Matt,

Sorry to hear of your fathers' illness. Also, thank you for coming forward to set the record straight. I read his testimony on this site like everyone else, and was waiting to hear more before i commented. I knew Russ and Merc would get to the bottom of it either way, but it takes alot of courage for you to stand up in opposition to a family member. For that, i thank you...

As a side note: Why did he do it? What was his motivation? Was it the medication?

All my best to you, your family and your dad. smile.gif

edit: PS. Dont mind izzy, he attacks everyone who doesnt believe exactly as he does.

I hope you come back to post. We need good researchers like you. "

[Class]

I have been in Washington, DC since July 24th and I got back this afternoon. I am still in the process of reading all the new replies in the LC threads so please forgive me if what I am about to post is not on topic. One of the sights I went to in DC is the American History Museum. In the War exhibit, they have a 9/11 display with three things that I think may be of interest to you guys. One is a big piece of steel from the 70th floor from either tower (I forget which one, though I think it was from the south tower), another is an airfone recovered from the flight 93 crash site and the last thing is some IDs from Pentagon employee Patrick Dunn. I took pictures because I thought it may be of interest to you guys.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1869/img0745ru2.jpg
Steel from WTC

http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/6346/img0748mb3.jpg
Flight 93 and Pentagon debris

Again, I am sorry if this is not related to what you are talking about, but I still have quite a lot of posts to go through and I wanted to post them before I forgot.

[apathoid]

Aha, thanks... So that would probably apply to the 2 employees, yes? And the guy who was given a first class ticket by "a friend who worked at United" would presumably be listed under non-revenue, too. Maybe the others got tickets the same way, from their relative, or perhaps they were just late? Seems like my first guess might work out after all.
Yeah, the "first class" ticket the employees friend had was a "buddy pass", if there is room in first class, non-revs get to sit there, including buddies.
So these could be a fax of a printed list. It seems odd they'd fax those to the FBI, but then maybe there were other documents sent along with it that gave the full picture.
I guess its possible they sent more than than a fax of the printed list, I wouldve thought they had been given an electronic list that is all-inclusive.

One thing I noted about the manifests is that AA11s appears to include standbys. Near the top of the list there is:

LCL RV(Revenue): 8 18 52 NR(Non Revenue): 1 1 1
LCL TTL(total): 9 19 53
This tells me that there were 78 confirmed passengers and 3 non-revs, for a total of 81 and there are 81 listed - so it appears to be complete.
The dead giveaway is passenger 6 on the manifest who is flying on a pass
6 NEWELL RENEE ....3A AUTH EMPL PASS
24 MELLO CHRIS .....11B PPR (Primary Pass Rider)
59 NEIRA LAURI ... 28B EMPL

I havent figured out who the third nonrev is, but he/she would be in business class (row 7-11)
As far as you know, is AA11s list complete? Is there any discrepancies like UA 175 and 93?
I cant see anything that might point to NRs on either UA list..so they may very well just be a list of confirmed pax.


edit: found the third NR
edit2: AA 77s list includes nonrevs also.

[T.A.M.]

It seems the Danner incidence is going way too far now...I think they have their handsful over there. I think the right thing to do would be for us to drop it. It helps noone to have evidence turn up that supports and argument, and is later proven fake. Whats more, there is a son with a very ill father, who now has to forcibly embarrass his own hero, to get him to tell the truth. That is just sad.

I know others have drawn a line in the sand, but I am tired of the name calling. The MarkyX tapes had to come out, they were necessary. I was hoping it would embarrass the "spokespeople" for that movement into taming down their attacks and maybe even make them apologize. I see now that aint gonna happen. At least the tapes are there to make sure the lot will watch their mouths before they speak.

I believe in evidence, good solid evidence, from which ever side it comes from. This thing has gone so far beyond that, it is actually scary. I think that the Debunkers have the weight of evidence on their side, but that doesn't mean that all those on the other side are wrong in their intent. Many of them simply want the truth. If anything, I will work harder now to try and make sure that anything I present will be as solidly based in fact as possible.

(Down off soap box again)... :)

[T.A.M.]

See this is what I was afraid of...quote from poster at LGF:

"If Dylan Avery ever showed up at my doorstep, I'd kill him. Just straight-up kill him. Four shots to the skull (I believe in overkill). Yes, I'd admit it. Yes, I'd go to jail. Don't care. It'd be worth it. People like him are lower than sub-human. At least the jihadis have a grip on some level of reality. They know what they did on 9/11. They don't use their political hate to try and rewrite all of history with their lies, and denigrate the memories of the 3,000 Americans who lost their life that day. I will never forget that moment in New York. I was on Long Island, and we could see the smoke pillar rising to the heavens all day and into the night. I still cry when I think of the people who had to choose between the heat and falling to their deaths. I cry when I think of the people on the floors above the crash, who only had minutes to leave answering machine messages saying everything they had to say to their loved ones before they perished.

People like Avery and those who desire to believe his lies because their hate for their own fellow Americans trumps all are not fit to breathe the same air as the rest of us. If he ever showed up at my door he would receive the skull-*********** he's been asking for. At first I thought he might be misguided, but listening to him laugh about flight 93 and suggest that these brave men and women would knowingly sacrifice themselves at the behest of... what? Halliburton? That recording has convinced me that a world without Dylan Avery is a better one than a world with him.

So Dylan, come on over. Get what's coming to you. "

Not very good at all....

[Sword_Of_Truth]

See this is what I was afraid of...quote from poster at LGF:

"If Dylan Avery ever showed up at my doorstep, I'd kill him. Just straight-up kill him. Four shots to the skull (I believe in overkill). Yes, I'd admit it. Yes, I'd go to jail. Don't care. It'd be worth it. People like him are lower than sub-human. At least the jihadis have a grip on some level of reality. They know what they did on 9/11. They don't use their political hate to try and rewrite all of history with their lies, and denigrate the memories of the 3,000 Americans who lost their life that day. I will never forget that moment in New York. I was on Long Island, and we could see the smoke pillar rising to the heavens all day and into the night. I still cry when I think of the people who had to choose between the heat and falling to their deaths. I cry when I think of the people on the floors above the crash, who only had minutes to leave answering machine messages saying everything they had to say to their loved ones before they perished.

People like Avery and those who desire to believe his lies because their hate for their own fellow Americans trumps all are not fit to breathe the same air as the rest of us. If he ever showed up at my door he would receive the skull-*********** he's been asking for. At first I thought he might be misguided, but listening to him laugh about flight 93 and suggest that these brave men and women would knowingly sacrifice themselves at the behest of... what? Halliburton? That recording has convinced me that a world without Dylan Avery is a better one than a world with him.

So Dylan, come on over. Get what's coming to you. "

Not very good at all....

There is no cause so noble that it will not attract fuggheads.
- Larry Niven

[Brainster]

Sheesh, I just listened to Hufschmid interview Samuel Danner (http://www.erichufschmid.net/Sam_EyewitnessToFlight77_hour1.mp3) (MP3 file). And it should have been obvious within about 5 minutes that the guy's nuttier than a Blue Diamond warehouse. No kidding one of the first things he says is that while he was driving towards the Pentagon (prior to the crash there), his wife called him and told him about Shanksville. He estimates that the call took place at 9:35; at any rate he's sure it was before the Pentagon crash.:boggled:

[MikeW]

I guess its possible they sent more than than a fax of the printed list, I wouldve thought they had been given an electronic list that is all-inclusive.
I would have thought so too, but it doesn't look like this list would be it. There's only the abbreviated version of the passengers names, for instance, so it's not much use to the authorities in identifying people.

Also, the date on the United Airlines faxes is October 2002, so they're not something that was faxed at the time. It makes me think this is just one document out of a folder, and we need more to get the full picture.

As far as you know, is AA11s list complete? Is there any discrepancies like UA 175 and 93?
The AA flights are both fine, the UA flights both have missing passengers.

[apathoid]

See this is what I was afraid of...quote from poster at LGF:

Not very good at all....

I agree. I despise Dylan and his ilk but would never want to see them hurt or worse over their little movie. There is absolutely no excuse for issuing death threats, even if they are issued out of sheer emotion and not meant to be taken literally.

[apathoid]

I would have thought so too, but it doesn't look like this list would be it. There's only the abbreviated version of the passengers names, for instance, so it's not much use to the authorities in identifying people.

Also, the date on the United Airlines faxes is October 2002, so they're not something that was faxed at the time. It makes me think this is just one document out of a folder, and we need more to get the full picture.


The AA flights are both fine, the UA flights both have missing passengers.
Did you notice that UA 93 is page 2/3 and UA 175 is 3/3? Where is the first page!? They also dont quite go into as much detail as far as the type of ticket...
We may just be looking at confirmed tickets for both the UA lists. Someone "screwed the pooch" and sent incomplete lists that omitted late arrivers and non-revs..

[Pardalis]

Man! This thread has grown!:eye-poppi

[MikeW]

Did you notice that UA 93 is page 2/3 and UA 175 is 3/3? Where is the first page!?
A cover page for the fax, "Here's the lists you wanted"?

We may just be looking at confirmed tickets for both the UA lists.
Maybe so with 175. Many of the 93 passengers were shifted onto it from other flights, though, and they're included. So it's people who bought tickets themselves, and people who were transferred onto the flight at the airport, with only Bingham missing.

[kevin]

I think if the government truly hated gays, they woulda made them the hijackers instead of one of the heroes.

Instead taking over the planes with boxcutters it'd be stilettos, body glitter, and Cher albums.

ETA: I hope no one takes offense to that. Just a little bit of levity on my part. If it's in poor taste, I apologize.

They'll do that when it comes time to invade San Francisco. They decided oil was more important than body glitter at this time. But while they had a chance, they figured they could take out a few activists at the same time.

[apathoid]

Maybe so with 175. Many of the 93 passengers were shifted onto it from other flights, though, and they're included. So it's people who bought tickets themselves, and people who were transferred onto the flight at the airport, with only Bingham missing.

True, although transferred pax would be revenue standbys and flying on tickets which would be confirmed. Their fare category wouldnt change on the printout. Is there anything to suggest that Bingham was flying on buddy pass?
There were only 37 people, so its not like there wouldve been more than 1-2 nonrevs. besides him.

Also I compared the fare categories of all UA 93 pax and there is no additional one other than ET, BF, BM, B, M, O, S, which all appear on UA 175.
So, I dont think there were any nonrevs on the list.

[negativ]

I've had to exercise some self-discipline (for once in my life) and ban myself from the LC forums. It gets my blood pressure up too high.

I understand the feeling of wanting to go all Ike Turner on Dylan & Pals, but the short-term satisfaction wouldn't be worth anything once the "OMG MEN IN BLACK" crap started.

I would get a supreme sense of satisfaction if each and every one of them had a sudden profound epiphany and realized how wrong, stupid, and hurtful their little LC religion is.

But I really don't think that's ever going to happen. I know I certainly do not have in my head a vast and comprehensive Gravy-style library of facts I can bring to a debate and maybe change some CT minds. Even if I did, I'd feel like I was trying to convince water to stop being wet.

Then, things like the recent Scripps Howard poll finding that 1 in 3 people polled believe the US Gov't had a LIHOP or MIHOP role in 9/11 make me even more morose than usual. And yeah, I know how useless poll data can be, but still... Bleh.:mad:

[apathoid]

Mike, a couple of things, actually three.
Mark Bigham was seated in row 4 which wouldve been First Class, also his aunt was apparently a UA flight attendant. To me, that signals a buddy pass.
Also, he almost missed the flight so he didnt beat the 5 minutes paperwork deadline.
Thats 2 very good reasons he wouldnt be on the list.

[T.A.M.]

here is what tickles me...

The are over at LC forums now, pounding on someone over the absence of the "Mark Bingham" from their supposed official manifest....Yet...Yet...their same manifest, which they are using to "prove" Mark Bingham wasnt there, lists the godamn hijackers, who they also say didnt exist.

The paradox is just mind boggling.

they remind me of a bunch of smurfs going around looking for all the little mis-knits in papa smurfs grand blanket.

I don't care if there are a 1000 mis-knits, the blanket is still a blanket, and the truth, as a whole, is still the truth, no matter how much they nit pick.

[apathoid]

here is what tickles me...

The are over at LC forums now, pounding on someone over the absence of the "Mark Bingham" from their supposed official manifest....Yet...Yet...their same manifest, which they are using to "prove" Mark Bingham wasnt there, lists the godamn hijackers, who they also say didnt exist.

The paradox is just mind boggling.

they remind me of a bunch of smurfs going around looking for all the little mis-knits in papa smurfs grand blanket.

I don't care if there are a 1000 mis-knits, the blanket is still a blanket, and the truth, as a whole, is still the truth, no matter how much they nit pick.
Yep, they arent too keen on logical explanations over there. If something isnt quite right(as they perceive it) it can only mean one thing : conspiracy!!

[DavidJames]

here is what tickles me...

The are over at LC forums now, pounding on someone over the absence of the "Mark Bingham" from their supposed official manifest....Yet...Yet...their same manifest, which they are using to "prove" Mark Bingham wasnt there, lists the godamn hijackers, who they also say didnt exist.This is a classic example that shows CTers are simply another form of "woo" believer. That is the propensity to see the hits but ignore the misses. Really no different then the believer who follows astrology, psychics or the John Edward type.

[T.A.M.]

Truther Poll Question:

Your government went to war in Iraq based on a pretext of lies. There were no WMDs, there was no 9/11 connection. Do you think your government could have allowed 9/11 to happen as a pretext for war?


Proper Question:
Do you think the U.S. Government allowed the attacks of 9/11 to occur so they could go to war in iraq?

[60hzxtl]

FLASH

From the horse's ah, horse's ahhhhhh -mouth re: 9/11 in NYC 2006

"rest assured, we'll be handing out LC2. LC:FC has been delayed."

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9564

Hats off to Gravy and MarkyX for slowing the machine -

LC Final will NOT BE READY FOR SEPT 11 2006 ('scuse me for shouting!)

[T.A.M.]

Entered into evidence, and as best I can tell, that means it had to have been accepted, factually, by the judge and both defense and prosecution (last I checked they don't allow fake evidence into court):

Passenger lists, including Mark Bingham and all 19 hijackers.

So I guess the courts are wrong, as was Moussaoui's defense, and the procecution, but not the CTers and "Their" list.

But wait, "their" list lists the hijackers, so at least we have the CTers admitting the hijakcers existed...right...wrong...apparently that part of their list is faked, but the absence of Mark Bingham...now that is real...interesting a list that is partly faked, partly real...very interesting...pretty majikal list

[MarkyX]

New 9/11 films and revisions of current ones should coincide with the anniversary but I can't wait for LC:FC to crush MarkyX, Gravy, Screw Loose Change, etc.


LOL. Final Cut contains the same debunked crap already...

Fetzer? The Jones brothers? Using old CNN footage to prove hijackers were alive?

WHen it comes to facts, they're already gone. The problem is the Denial Movement doesn't care for such things, otherwise they wouldn't exist.