Blame it all on NORAD, sure

[geggy]

9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
Allegations Brought to Inspectors General

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006; Page A03

Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.
Breach of Rule 4 removed.

[geggy]

9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes

How did the U.S. Air Force respond on 9/11? Could it have shot down United 93, as conspiracy theorists claim? Obtaining 30 hours of never-before-released tapes from the control room of NORAD's Northeast headquarters, the author reconstructs the chaotic military history of that day—and the Pentagon's apparent attempt to cover it up. VF.com exclusive: Hear excerpts from the September 11 NORAD tapes. Click PLAY after each transcript to listen

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

[Overman]

Funny, They are scrambling to cover up their ineptness, and doing a inept job at that even, and CTer's give them credit for pulling off the largest most cordinated coverup operation in history.

[geggy]

So you do think there is a cover up afterall?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Did you even read the Vanity Fair article with the transcripts?

"The real story is actually better than the one we told," a NORAD general admitted to 9/11-commission staffers when confronted with evidence from the tapes that contradicted his original testimony. And so it seems.

"When they told me there was a hijack, my first reaction was 'Somebody started the exercise early,'" Nasypany later told me. The day's exercise was designed to run a range of scenarios, including a "traditional" simulated hijack in which politically motivated perpetrators commandeer an aircraft, land on a Cuba-like island, and seek asylum. "I actually said out loud, 'The hijack's not supposed to be for another hour,'" Nasypany recalled. (The fact that there was an exercise planned for the same day as the attack factors into several conspiracy theories, though the 9/11 commission dismisses this as coincidence. After plodding through dozens of hours of recordings, so do I.)

n tape, one hears as Nasypany, following standard hijack protocol, prepares to launch two fighters from Otis Air National Guard Base, on Cape Cod, to look for American 11, which is now off course and headed south. He orders his Weapons Team—the group on the ops floor that controls the fighters—to put the Otis planes on "battle stations." This means that at the air base the designated "alert" pilots—two in this case—are jolted into action by a piercing "battle horn." They run to their jets, climb up, strap in, and do everything they need to do to get ready to fly short of starting the engines.

Meanwhile, the communications team at NEADS—the ID techs Dooley, Rountree, and Watson—are trying to find out, as fast as possible, everything they can about the hijacked plane: the airline, the flight number, the tail number (to help fighter pilots identify it in the air), its flight plan, the number of passengers ("souls on board" in military parlance), and, most important, where it is, so Nasypany can launch the fighters. All the ID section knows is that the plane is American Airlines, Flight No. 11, Boston to Los Angeles, currently somewhere north of John F. Kennedy International Airport—the point of reference used by civilian controllers.

ID tech Watson places a call to the management desk at Boston Center, which first alerted NEADS to the hijack, and gets distressing news.

08:39:58WATSON: It's the inbound to J.F.K.?BOSTON CENTER: We—we don't know.WATSON: You don't know where he is at all?BOSTON CENTER: He's being hijacked. The pilot's having a hard time talking to the—I mean, we don't know. We don't know where he's goin'. He's heading towards Kennedy. He's—like I said, he's like 35 miles north of Kennedy now at 367 knots. We have no idea where he's goin' or what his intentions are.WATSON: If you could please give us a call and let us know—you know any information, that'd be great.BOSTON CENTER: Okay. Right now, I guess we're trying to work on—I guess there's been some threats in the cockpit. The pilot—WATSON: There's been what?! I'm sorry.UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Threat to the … ?BOSTON CENTER: We'll call you right back as soon as we know more info.
...
08:40:36DOOLEY: O.K., he said threat to the cockpit!

In order to find a hijacked airliner—or any airplane—military controllers need either the plane's beacon code (broadcast from an electronic transponder on board) or the plane's exact coordinates. When the hijackers on American 11 turned the beacon off, intentionally losing themselves in the dense sea of airplanes already flying over the U.S. that morning (a tactic that would be repeated, with some variations, on all the hijacked flights), the NEADS controllers were at a loss.

"You would see thousands of green blips on your scope," Nasypany told me, "and now you have to pick and choose. Which is the bad guy out there? Which is the hijacked aircraft? And without that information from F.A.A., it's a needle in a haystack."

At this point in the morning, more than 3,000 jetliners are already in the air over the continental United States, and the Boston controller's direction—"35 miles north of Kennedy"—doesn't help the NEADS controllers at all.

On tape, amid the confusion, one hears Major James Fox, then 32, the leader of the Weapons Team, whose composure will stand out throughout the attack, make an observation that, so far, ranks as the understatement of the morning.

08:43:06FOX: I've never seen so much real-world stuff happen during an exercise.
Less than two minutes later, frustrated that the controllers still can't pinpoint American 11 on radar, Nasypany orders Fox to launch the Otis fighters anyway.

08:44:59FOX: M.C.C. [Mission Crew Commander], I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination—NASYPANY: O.K., I'm gonna give you the Z point [coordinate]. It's just north of—New York City.FOX: I got this lat long, 41-15, 74-36, or 73-46.NASYPANY: Head 'em in that direction.FOX: Copy that.

08:46:36NASYPANY: Hi, sir. O.K., what—what we're doing, we're tryin' to locate this guy. We can't find him via I.F.F. [the Identification Friend or Foe system]. What we're gonna do, we're gonna hit up every track within a 25-mile radius of this Z-point [coordinate] that we put on the scope. Twenty-nine thousand [feet] heading 1-9-0 [east]. We're just gonna do—we're gonna try to find this guy. They can't find him. There's supposedly been threats to the cockpit. So we're just doing the thing … [off-mic conversation] True. And probably right now with what's going on in the cockpit it's probably really crazy. So, it probably needs to—that will simmer down and we'll probably get some better information.PLAY | STOP

American 11 slammed into the north tower of the World Trade Center four seconds into this transmission.


In light of this news, someone asks Nasypany what to do with the fighters—the two F-15s from Otis Air National Guard Base—which have now just blasted off for New York at full afterburner to find American 11. (The flying time at full speed from Cape Cod to New York is about 10 minutes.) Pumped with adrenaline, Nasypany doesn't miss a beat.

08:52:40NASYPANY: Send 'em to New York City still. Continue! Go!NASYPANY: This is what I got. Possible news that a 737 just hit the World Trade Center. This is a real-world. And we're trying to confirm this. Okay. Continue taking the fighters down to the New York City area, J.F.K. area, if you can. Make sure that the F.A.A. clears it— your route all the way through. Do what we gotta do, okay? Let's press with this. It looks like this guy could have hit the World Trade Center.


As the tapes reveal in stark detail, parts of Scott's and Arnold's testimony were misleading, and others simply false. At 9:16 a.m., when Arnold and Marr had supposedly begun their tracking of United 93, the plane had not yet been hijacked. In fact, NEADS wouldn't get word about United 93 for another 51 minutes. And while NORAD commanders did, indeed, order the Langley fighters to scramble at 9:24, as Scott and Arnold testified, it was not in response to the hijacking of American 77 or United 93. Rather, they were chasing a ghost. NEADS was entering the most chaotic period of the morning.
etc

[Shrinker]

So geggy are you coming around to the idea that the military tried to stop the planes crashing, and that the 9/11 Commision tried to find out what actually happened on that day, and that the popular press are not afraid to expose wrongdoing when they see it? That seems to be the point of your post.

[Cylinder]

It was not NORAD that screwed the pooch - the best warning they got on Sept. 11 was the 8 minute lead time for AA11. NORAD was notified of AA 77 only three minutes before it impacted the Pentagon. For both UA175 and UA93, NORAD was notified that they were hijacked only after they had crashed.

There was some confusion at the AOCs, but that was because of conflicting information handed to them by the FAA centers.

[gumboot]

How did the U.S. Air Force respond on 9/11? Could it have shot down United 93, as conspiracy theorists claim?


Most CTers, from what I have seen, claim the "dozens of NORAD exercises" on 9/11 (one, actually...) amounted to a "stand-down" of NORAD. You don't even know what your own people are saying...

-Andrew

[Cuddles]

9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes

How did the U.S. Air Force respond on 9/11? Could it have shot down United 93, as conspiracy theorists claim? Obtaining 30 hours of never-before-released tapes from the control room of NORAD's Northeast headquarters, the author reconstructs the chaotic military history of that day—and the Pentagon's apparent attempt to cover it up. VF.com exclusive: Hear excerpts from the September 11 NORAD tapes. Click PLAY after each transcript to listen

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

Would shooting down a fully loaded comercial jet in the middle of New York really have helped matter? I don't have 30 hours to listen to the tapes, but I would assume that any discussion on whether to shoot them down would last so long that it would be irrelevant by the time a descision was reached. As quite possibly happened.

[geggy]

Now that it's been publicly established that NORAD lied in their timesheet and the fact Pentagon covered it up, which both are treasonous offense (like anyone will be held accountable for it) what reasons do you have to believe in the commission report?

[twinstead]

Now that it's been publicly established that NORAD lied in their timesheet and the fact Pentagon covered it up, which both are treasonous offense (like anyone will be held accountable for it) what reasons do you have to believe in the commission report?

Is it ever possible for you to take off the conspiracy glasses for just a second at least and view anything objectively?

[Bronze Dog]

Now that it's been publicly established that NORAD lied in their timesheet and the fact Pentagon covered it up, which both are treasonous offense (like anyone will be held accountable for it) what reasons do you have to believe in the commission report?
You speak as if the government was one monolithic entity where every part has the same attributes as every other part.

[aggle-rithm]

So you do think there is a cover up afterall?

That's right! Until you blew the lid on it, NORAD had successfully convinced everyone that they had, in fact, successfully stopped the terrorist attacks on 9/11. They didn't count on the genius of geggy, though, to thwart their nefarious scheme!

[aggle-rithm]

Now that it's been publicly established that NORAD lied in their timesheet and the fact Pentagon covered it up, which both are treasonous offense (like anyone will be held accountable for it) ...

Do YOU have an alibi?

Where were YOU on 9/11?

[aggle-rithm]

9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes

How did the U.S. Air Force respond on 9/11?



The same way any large beauracracy does: Slowly.

Could it have shot down United 93, as conspiracy theorists claim?

It could if they had gotten there in time, which they apparently didn't.


Obtaining 30 hours of never-before-released tapes from the control room of NORAD's Northeast headquarters, the author reconstructs the chaotic military history of that day—and the Pentagon's apparent attempt to cover it up.


Like, they said they ordered pepperoni pizza for lunch, but from the tapes you can totally hear them say "sausage".

VF.com exclusive: Hear excerpts from the September 11 NORAD tapes. Click PLAY after each transcript to listen

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

Or click the "close" button to ignore it and get the hell on with your life.

[Hellbound]

Now that it's been publicly established that NORAD lied in their timesheet and the fact Pentagon covered it up, which both are treasonous offense (like anyone will be held accountable for it) what reasons do you have to believe in the commission report?

Treasonous?

Really, geggy, do you EVER do ANY research into anything, or do you just post whtever makes you feel better and assume it's fact?

[geggy]

A team in the 102nd Fighter Wing at Otis Air National Guard Base, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, finishes loading dummy missiles onto two fighters that are going to fly a training mission over the Atlantic. They take off sometime before the second WTC tower is hit. Shortly after that hit, the fighters on the training mission are recalled. The implication is that the fighters are then refitted with actual weapons instead of dummy ones.

http://www.capecodonline.com/special/terror/capecodders8.htm

Otis is the base from which the two F-15s launch in response to the first hijacking (Flight 11) at roughly the same time.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233007

[Gravy]

A team in the 102nd Fighter Wing at Otis Air National Guard Base, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, finishes loading dummy missiles onto two fighters that are going to fly a training mission over the Atlantic. They take off sometime before the second WTC tower is hit. Shortly after that hit, the fighters on the training mission are recalled. The implication is that the fighters are then refitted with actual weapons instead of dummy ones.

http://www.capecodonline.com/special/terror/capecodders8.htm

Otis is the base from which the two F-15s launch in response to the first hijacking (Flight 11) at roughly the same time.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233007
Geggy, my ever-fixéd star of ignorance, are you suggesting that the two alert F-15s did not take off for New York at 8:52?

Do explain.

[geggy]

One of the pilots of these F15s nicknamed Nasty is reportedly standing in for the usual "alert" pilot, who is "scheduled for training" on 9/11.

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/archives/2002/aug/21/ithought21.htm

[Gravy]

One of the pilots of these F15s nicknamed Nasty is reportedly standing in for the usual "alert" pilot, who is "scheduled for training" on 9/11.

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/archives/2002/aug/21/ithought21.htm
Your point? And please address my question above.

[defaultdotxbe]

hmm, geggy's last 2 posts here bear a striking resemblance to roger_sq's comments on the SLC blog

[WildCat]

Do you ever think that geggy just has everyone on ignore?

[R.Mackey]

More like everything.

Please, geggy, if you can read this, come to the point.

[Gravy]

hmm, geggy's last 2 posts here bear a striking resemblance to roger_sq's comments on the SLC blog
"911coverup" made identical posts on SLC.

[defaultdotxbe]

same difference, lol, they all blend together these days

[aggle-rithm]

One of the pilots of these F15s nicknamed Nasty is reportedly standing in for the usual "alert" pilot, who is "scheduled for training" on 9/11.

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/archives/2002/aug/21/ithought21.htm

Why are you speaking about 5-year-old events in the present tense all of a sudden? You're not hallucinating are you? I ask only for information.

[gumboot]

One of the pilots of these F15s nicknamed Nasty is reportedly standing in for the usual "alert" pilot, who is "scheduled for training" on 9/11.


Oh, I didn't know that. Well. That changes things. I'm completely convinced.

Clearly 9/11 was carried out by the...

wait...

Who do you think did it again?

:rolleyes:

-Andrew

[geggy]

USA Today reports that at this time, "a joint FBI/CIA anti terorist task force that specifically prepared for this type of disaster" is on a "training exercise in Monterey, Calif." Consequently "as of late Tuesday, with airports closed around the country, the task force still hasn't found a way to fly back to Washington."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/security.htm

[WildCat]

USA Today reports that at this time,
That settles it then... :confused:

[R.Mackey]

USA Today reports that at this time,
Not ONE structural engineer in America has any idea what had happened to WTC7. How do you conspiracy clowns explain that one?

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%20-%20WTC%207%20Collapse%20Final.pdf

Either USA Today or you are lying. No link supplied... probably you.

Who's the "conspiracy clown?" Hmm?

ETA: Geggy screwed up his post and didn't fix it until after I'd replied... He no longer claims USA Today said that -- but [I]he still does. Hence, a liar. QED.

[Gravy]

USA Today reports that at this time,
223 posts, geggy. And every one showing your intellectual cowardice.

Do you have any shame at all?

[Gravy]

(Sig line) Not ONE structural engineer in America has any idea what had happened to WTC7. How do you conspiracy clowns explain that one?
I explain that statement by the fact that you're a very ignorant person, as you demonstrate with every post. Remember the investigation, Sherlock?
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

Not one psychiatrist in America knows the cause of geggy's delusions of competence.

[geggy]

At the time of the first WTC crash, three F-16s assigned to Andrews Air Force Base, ten miles from Washington, are flying an air-to-ground training mission to drop some bombs and hit a refueling tanker, on a range in North Carolina, 207 miles away from their base. However it is only when they are halfway back to Andrews that lead pilot major Billy Hutchison is able to talk to the acting supervisor of flying at Andrews, Lt Col Phil Thompson, who tells him to return to the base "buster" (as fast as aircraft will fly). After landing back at Andrews, Hutchinson is told to take off immediately and does so at 10:33 am. The other two pilots Marc Sasseville and Heather Penney take off from Andrews at 10:42 am, after having loaded their planes with 20mm training rounds. These three pilots will therefore not be patrolling the skies above Washington until after about 10:45 am.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020929120010/http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst.jsp?view=story&id=news/aw090971.xml

[Gravy]

geggy Scorecard

Posts: 224
Sense: 0

[geggy]

From 9/10 to 9/14, The NORAD fighters are due to stay in Alaska and Canada until the end of of the Russian exercise during Operation Northern Vigilance. At the some time between 10:32 am and 11:45 am on 9/11, Russian President Vladimar Putin will call the White House to say the Russians are voluntarily halting their exercise.

[Gravy]

From 9/10 to 9/14, The NORAD fighters are due to stay in Alaska and Canada until the end of of the Russian exercise during Operation Northern Vigilance. At the some time between 10:32 am and 11:45 am on 9/11, Russian President Vladimar Putin will call the White House to say the Russians are voluntarily halting their exercise.
Wow! That's cool! The Russians called!
225

[defaultdotxbe]

At the time of the first WTC crash, three F-16s assigned to Andrews Air Force Base, ten miles from Washington, are flying an air-to-ground training mission to drop some bombs and hit a refueling tanker, on a range in North Carolina, 207 miles away from their base. However it is only when they are halfway back to Andrews that lead pilot major Billy Hutchison is able to talk to the acting supervisor of flying at Andrews, Lt Col Phil Thompson, who tells him to return to the base "buster" (as fast as aircraft will fly). After landing back at Andrews, Hutchinson is told to take off immediately and does so at 10:33 am. The other two pilots Marc Sasseville and Heather Penney take off from Andrews at 10:42 am, after having loaded their planes with 20mm training rounds. These three pilots will therefore not be patrolling the skies above Washington until after about 10:45 am.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020929120010/http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst.jsp?view=story&id=news/aw090971.xml
the ironic thing is i dont believe andrews would have had any fighters on alert for that day, so had the three not been on excercise it would have been nearly 24 hours before they could have been checked out, armed, and fueled for patrol

but i guess that proves foreknowledge now, right?

[Gravy]

the ironic thing is i dont believe andrews would have had any fighters on alert for that day, so had the three not been on excercise it would have been nearly 24 hours before they could have been checked out, armed, and fueled for patrol

but i guess that proves foreknowledge now, right?
I would guess, even though Andrews wasn't an alert base, that it often had fighters available on short notice for Air Force 1 escort duty.

[gumboot]

I would guess, even though Andrews wasn't an alert base, that it often had fighters available on short notice for Air Force 1 escort duty.


In September 2001 Andrews AFB had two fighter squadrons based there:

121st Fighter Squadron of the 113th Fighter Wing, District of Columbia Air National Guard

and

Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 321 (VMFA-321), Marine Air Guard

Neither are full time squadrons, and neither was on duty on the morning of 9/11.

Pilots of these squadrons, on their own initiative, headed to Andrews after they knew about the attack and loaded up their aircraft.

-Andrew

[Regnad Kcin]

geggy, my pet, remember...

They're watching you. From the computer you post and the cell phone you carry, they know where you are.

Sleep tight!

[Belz...]

Do you ever think that geggy just has everyone on ignore?

That would explain a great many things...

[Pardalis]

geggy's signature:

"Not ONE structural engineer in America has any idea what had happened to WTC7. How do you conspiracy clowns explain that one?"

Yeah but EVERY structural engeneer on the PLANET know what happenned to the WTC towers. So what's your point?

[Pardalis]

geggy Scorecard

Posts: 224
Sense: 0

I think geggy is well under 0.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Call me crazy (or "CIA disinfo operative" for the 800th time) but wouldn't it make more sense for an ebil gubmint conspirator to schedule a boot-polishing and/or bathroom inspection for 9-11 to make the window of opportunity as wide as possible?

Or am I just talking out my ass here?

[Pardalis]

From 9/10 to 9/14, The NORAD fighters are due to stay in Alaska and Canada until the end of of the Russian exercise during Operation Northern Vigilance. At the some time between 10:32 am and 11:45 am on 9/11, Russian President Vladimar Putin will call the White House to say the Russians are voluntarily halting their exercise.

geggy, if you cut and paste from the same source but in consecutive posts, it's still in breach of rule 4. :rolleyes:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

geggy's signature:

"Not ONE structural engineer in America has any idea what had happened to WTC7. How do you conspiracy clowns explain that one?"

Yeah but EVERY structural engeneer on the PLANET know what happenned to the WTC towers. So what's your point?

It's another lie.

WTC7 was severly damage by debris from the twin towers. It had a major fire that wasn't fought or controlled, a 40,000 gallon fuel tank that fed and accelerated the fires and it had an unusual truss system due to its being constructed over a Con-Ed substation several stories high.

WTC7 was itself a "perfect storm" for collapse.

[Pardalis]

It's another lie.

WTC7 was severly damage by debris from the twin towers. It had a major fire that wasn't fought or controlled, a 40,000 gallon fuel tank that fed and accelerated the fires and it had an unusual truss system due to its being constructed over a Con-Ed substation several stories high.

WTC7 was itself a "perfect storm" for collapse.

Yeah. Geggy's signature is not going to last very long, isn't the report on the WTC7 collapse due very soon?

[gumboot]

From 9/10 to 9/14, The NORAD fighters are due to stay in Alaska and Canada until the end of of the Russian exercise during Operation Northern Vigilance. At the some time between 10:32 am and 11:45 am on 9/11, Russian President Vladimar Putin will call the White House to say the Russians are voluntarily halting their exercise.



Geggy, we have been over this. By the way, are you aware that this operation is one of the claimed "exercises" NORAD was involved in? Do you understand that Northern Vigilance is not an exercise?

Have you read the official NORAD Press Release (http://www.norad.mil/newsroom/news_releases/2001/090901.htm) about Northern Vigilance, dated 9 september 2001?

NORAD conducted operation Northern Denial from December 1 to 14, 2000 in response to a similar, but smaller scale, Russian deployment of long-range bombers at northern Russian air bases.

See how there is nothing special about this Geggy? See how they did it before 2001?

Are you saying Russia is ALSO an ebil gibment conspirat0r? Are you Geggy? Consider the implications of such a claim. Do you believe the Russian Government were part of the 9/11 plot?

-Andrew

[defaultdotxbe]

loose change says:
The second, "Northern Vigilance", moved fighter jets to Canada and Alaska to fight off an imaginary Russian fleet.

the NORAD press release says:
The North American Aerospace Defense Command shall deploy fighter aircraft as necessary to Forward Operating Locations (FOLS) in Alaska and Northern Canada to monitor a Russian air force exercise in the Russian arctic and North Pacific ocean.


can you smell the truth on that one?

[gumboot]

can you smell the truth on that one?


I believe this is perhaps a purposeful deception by LC.

There was in fact a NORAD exercise on 9/11 relating to an imaginary Russian attack.

It was the annual exercise called "Guardian". It is done every year and assesses NORAD's response to a Nuclear Attack.

The DoD has two types of exercise:

FIX - Field Exercise, either "Live" (involving full operational units) or a "TEWT" (Tactical Exercise Without Troops" which involves specific people (say all officers) but not all personnel

CPX - Command Post Exercise - these do not involve any activities in the field at all.

Guardian involves two CPXs as the exercise involves two different commands. Command centres are each allocated an alphabetic range from which to choose an exercise name.

As we know, Guardian consisted of two parts: "Global" and "Vigilant". If we look up the DoD Alphabetic Block (http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/codenames.html#_Blocks) we can see that:

26. GG-GL - USSTRATCOM - US Strategic Command ("Global")
86. VG-VL - USSPACECOM - US Space Command ("Vigilant")

So we know the two command elements involved in the NORAD exercise were US Strategic Command ("Global Guardian") and US Space Command ("Vigilant Guardian").

Loosers have incorrectly identified the "exercise involving a Russian bomber attack" as Northern Vigilance (and accompanying Northern Guardian in Iceland) thus incorrectly assume the Guardian exercises must be something else.

In reality there were 2 NORAD events going on during 9/11 (both of which were ongoing from previous days...) relating to Russian nuclear bombers. One was an exercise and one was a real world operation.

LC seems to have used this to confuse their audience, and thus exaggerate the extent of NORAD activities on 9/11.

Of course all of this is academic anyway, as neither the exercise nor the real world operation involved NEADS or the 14 fighters on duty to protect the US that day.

-Andrew

[MarkyX]

Just a really quick question for everyone.

Because there was an obvious coverup to save one's skin in this Pentagon ordeal, do you think there should be another investigation to see if they are any other government entities on that day trying to save their jobs over a proper investigations?

[gumboot]

Because there was an obvious coverup to save one's skin in this Pentagon ordeal, do you think there should be another investigation to see if they are any other government entities on that day trying to save their jobs over a proper investigations?


I'm of two minds.

In an ideal world, I'd say yes. Truth is most important.

Unfortunately it's not an ideal world. More specifically, we live in a blame-rich world. Everything bad that happens is someone's fault, and those at fault must be blamed. They must pay.

Of course, we know who is to blame. The Radical Islamic Terrorists that took over those planes.

But for a lot of people that's not good enough. It's unpleasant to think they are capable of doing such a thing (this is the same thought logic that produces CT). So instead any mistep by any authority - be that the airlines or government agencies or the military or whoever, will be blamed instead.

I can picture law suits galore. Newspaper articles tearing into the government.

Here in New Zealand I have intimate first hand knowledge of what happens to government departments that are targetted for blame in the media. That exact same thing has utterly destroyed our police force.

The impact has become very real, and ultimately the country itself is suffering because of a zealous media and a culture of blame.

So... what is gained by uncovering questionable actions by government (and I myself can't really see how any actions on the day of 9/11 could have prevented the attacks occuring)? What benefit does the American people, and the Country itself gain from such an investigation?

And what might the cost be? What government departments might suffer the fate of the New Zealand Police as a result of being blamed for 9/11 (either in part or in full)?

So yeah.

On first glance, the answer is obvious to me - absolutely, the truth is all that matters, if there are doubts about other departments, find out.

But then, I have to ask "what are the ramifications for the country?". It might just be better to let the thing lie. Or do private internal investigations.

Shrugs.

-Andrew

[Joytown]

Just a really quick question for everyone.

Because there was an obvious coverup to save one's skin in this Pentagon ordeal, do you think there should be another investigation to see if they are any other government entities on that day trying to save their jobs over a proper investigations?


I do .. and I'll tell you why. While I agree that obviously the people reponsible are the terrorists, I think it goes beyond find out who was CYA-ing. It goes to looking at what didn't work in the system that allowed 9-11 to happen at all. How could a situation come about where "the system was blinking red" in terms of terrorism and still we as a country got blindsided by 19 terrorists. How could the National Security Advisor come on TV and say ", "No one could have imagined them using planes as missiles." when in fact this was not an unknown scenario? Why was our Government so ill prepared for this? And I don't ask this question of some desire to bag on the Bush Admin, but if we don't see where we screwed up, how will we ever fix it?

It speaks to the same reason we needed NIST and FEMA reports and why they are valuable. Fire safety engineers, structural engineers, emergency response planners, architects, etc are using the information gleaned from those reports to make buildings safer. They took where the weaknesses were and are looking to improve things. Do you feel our Gov't has a significantly better handle on terrorism now as a result of the 9-11 Commission report?

Can we say that there was the same level of scrutiny applied to the U.S. Gov't that we have applied to the physical evidence at the 9-11 sites? I think that in order to better prevent another attack on our Country we need an honest and probing investigation into our Gov't actions in the weeks and months leading up to 9-11 (I have my own theories on what happened but that's not the real point).

Unfortunately a lot of time has passed, and I don't think a new investigation will be as effective as the one we should have done in the first place, but I still think we need to know what happened THEN so we can try to prevent it from happening AGAIN! I also posit that as long the 9-11 CT'ers continue to frame the cries for a new investigation in terms of "Inside Job" and 'WTC7 was a demo", they make it likely we'll ever see another investigation.

-joytown

(Political Rant: I think it's CRIMINAL how much the Bush administration resisted having the 9-11 investigations at all, and equally criminal how much they stonewalled, evaded, and put roadblocks in front of the investigations. Unfortunately as long as the party that was in office during 9-11 is still in office, we'll never see a open and probing investigation into 9-11. Equally unfortunate is that the Bush admin's actions in the matter or in large part what fuels a lot of the 9-11 Conspiracies. The 9-11 commission investigation and report was an unfortunate by-product of election year politics - involving a party who screwed up pretty badly and didn't want the information of how badly they screwed up to get into the public eye so-as not to lose the next election.).

[gumboot]

(Political Rant: I think it's CRIMINAL how much the Bush administration resisted having the 9-11 investigations at all, and equally criminal how much they stonewalled, evaded, and put roadblocks in front of the investigations. Unfortunately as long as the party that was in office during 9-11 is still in office, we'll never see a open and probing investigation into 9-11. Equally unfortunate is that the Bush admin's actions in the matter or in large part what fuels a lot of the 9-11 Conspiracies. The 9-11 commission investigation and report was an unfortunate by-product of election year politics - involving a party who screwed up pretty badly and didn't want the information of how badly they screwed up to get into the public eye so-as not to lose the next election.).


I mostly agree with you here. My only criticism is the notion that the current administration screwed up.

I totally disagree. I believe the seeds that made the success of the terrorist attack inevitable were laid the the decade before 9/11, when the US repeatedly failed to treat terrorism as a serious threat - both at home and abroad.

And Going into my own rant...:p

I believe this is a wider problem. The entire west made the same failures, ever since the 70's, when terrorism really started to hit us hard. I believe most of the west is still making the exact same errors. We still don't treat terrorism as a serious threat.

I think the worst repercussion of our failures over the last 30 years or so are still to come.

-Andrew

[MarkyX]

Pretty much so. People view terrorism as something not a big thing (talking to you Moore), even though they killed 3000 people, destroyed the New York Economy, and numerous buildings on that day.

What I don't believe in is that 9/11 being an inside job or a new world order. What I do believe in, though, is the US government has proven time and time again that they are bumbling fools. Despite the increase of terrorist attacks throughout the past 30 years, as you mentioned, nothing was changed at the home front. You still had your post-cold-war policies in effect. My guess is 9/11 was a wakeup call that the current security policies at the time past their expiration date.

You cannot pin the blame on strictly Bush though. The United States had years and years to upgrade and even at a few ocassions, take down Osama, but never went for the opening. Now with the recent release of NORAD tapes, proving that there is a coverup (although not sinister or vile as Alex Jones or Avery like to put forth) of saving one's ass.

The sad part, people like Jim Fetzer and Alex Jones are delaying a possible change. As long as there is a voice that wants to accuse Bush of crimes he did not commit or don't have any real evidence, the government will always be in the defensive. Perhaps when Dylan, Alex, Professor Jones, and Jim stop attacking an illusional enemy that can't fight back, then they might be some actual changes.

Until then, I shall continue to be the knife in the 9/11 Denier's back.

[geggy]

It was the annual exercise called "Guardian". It is done every year and assesses NORAD's response to a Nuclear Attack.

The Guardian exercise is usually held in October every year except for 2001 when it was pulled back to september during the week of the 11th.

Dick cheney was one of the responsibles for designing and scheduling the wargame exercises on the morning of 9/11. The purpose of these exercises was to deliberately trick those involved in the training into thinking the WTC attack was a part of the drill...because no one ever antipicated something like 9/11 would occur, hence the slow reaction. These exercises were also designed to keep fighter jets, anti-terrorism units, etc., out and away from the hijacked plane's flight path and their destinations.

And George Bush, the supposedly commander in cheif, was stranded in Florida on that morning during the attacks, so guess who was already in Washington DC and took over as the commander of cheif? The vice president.

[Pardalis]

Hey geggy boy! How's your frontal lobe doing?

The Guardian exercise is usually held in October every year except for 2001 when it was pulled back to september during the week of the 11th.

So?

If they were the ones behind the attacks, wouldn't the attacks have occured october 11th?


Dick cheney was one of the responsibles for designing and scheduling the wargame exercises on the morning of 9/11. The purpose of these exercises was to deliberately trick those involved in the training into thinking the WTC attack was a part of the drill...because no one ever antipicated something like 9/11 would occur, hence the slow reaction. These exercises were also designed to keep fighter jets, anti-terrorism units, etc., out and away from the hijacked plane's flight path and their destinations.


Of course you know all that from your great experience in this field... :rolleyes:

What do you do for a living again?

And George Bush, the supposedly commander in cheif, was stranded in Florida on that morning during the attacks, so guess who was already in Washington DC and took over as the commander of cheif? The vice president.

Bush was still commander in chief. But anyways, if he had been incapacitated, that's expected that the vice president should take over. It's certainly not up to Bush's dog to take over.

[gumboot]

Now with the recent release of NORAD tapes, proving that there is a coverup


One thing that I wasn't aware of, but am now...

Really there was no cover up. The tapes have only been released publicly to Vanity Fair recently, but the 9/11 Commission had a hold of them much sooner.

In fact the 9/11 commission CONFRONTED the NORAD officers about the difference between their own testimony and the tapes. The irony is their actual response was BETTER than their testimonies.

The 9/11 commission concluded that SOME (read: not all) of their testimony was knowingly false because NORAD wanted to present a scenario in which they would have shot down UA93 before it reached Washington DC, had the passengers not intervened.

The commission concluded this was false. I'm not entirely sure, based on my own reading of the tapes. I think they "might" have intercepted it, and I think the Andrews AFB fighters had a pretty decent chance of intercepting it.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

The Guardian exercise is usually held in October every year except for 2001 when it was pulled back to september during the week of the 11th.


Usually, Geggy. Usually. Not always.



Dick cheney was one of the responsibles for designing and scheduling the wargame exercises on the morning of 9/11.


Source? My understanding is the VP is outside the military chain of command. In any event, Vigilant Overview exercises (which is what Vigilant Guardian was) are CJCS approved and CinC NORAD sponsored. Nothing to do with the VP.



The purpose of these exercises was to deliberately trick those involved in the training into thinking the WTC attack was a part of the drill...because no one ever antipicated something like 9/11 would occur, hence the slow reaction.

Well it failed miserably. NEADS' response to the garbled intel they received was exceptional. Nasypany (The Mission Crew Commander), in particular made some intuitive calls that were spot on.




These exercises were also designed to keep fighter jets, anti-terrorism units, etc., out and away from the hijacked plane's flight path and their destinations

How did they manage that? The exercises did not include fighter jets or anti-terrorism units.

What is the standard anti-terrorism unit tactic for preventing a hijacked airliner being used as a giant bomb?



And George Bush, the supposedly commander in cheif, was stranded in Florida on that morning during the attacks, so guess who was already in Washington DC and took over as the commander of cheif? The vice president.

The only serious criticism I have of the air defense response to September 11 was the delay in getting a shoot down order - IMHO there should have been systems in place, and permission should not have needed to go as high as the executive.

-Andrew

[jon]

Now that it's been publicly established that NORAD lied in their timesheet and the fact Pentagon covered it up, which both are treasonous offense (like anyone will be held accountable for it) what reasons do you have to believe in the commission report?

Firstly, the 9/11 Commission Report was critical about NORAD's account of events.

Secondly, you do know that 9/11 Commission Staff and Commissioners have "thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html)". They have therefore turned "over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html)". So, thanks to the 9/11 Commission, those who made false statements may well face prosecution.

So the 9/11 Commission was critical about NORAD's testimony, and has referred the case on for possible prosecution. Seems like a pretty reasonable response to me (perhaps they could have been quicker and more decisive re. prosecution, but for a group of people to come to a decision does take time...)

[Darth Rotor]

Just a really quick question for everyone.

Because there was an obvious coverup to save one's skin in this Pentagon ordeal, do you think there should be another investigation to see if they are any other government entities on that day trying to save their jobs over a proper investigations?
To what end?

Will another investigation bring anyone back to life?

No.

Will another investigation do other than present the leaders of the investigation with y pulpit from which to gain, or attempt to gain, political advantage by taking advantage of the blood innocently shed?

No.

Get on with it, man, and pretending that the enemy is a lesser man. The enemy gets a vote, in war, and in this war, the war of "how the world should be" the enemy, aka Osama and his pals, struck a blow.

Why is that so damned hard for so many people to accept? The enemy gets a vote in any war, ask anyone who has ever fought in one.

DR

[gumboot]

Just a really quick question for everyone.

Because there was an obvious coverup to save one's skin in this Pentagon ordeal, do you think there should be another investigation to see if they are any other government entities on that day trying to save their jobs over a proper investigations?


Now that I have oncovered the NORAD Tapes and made my timeline...

I say no. Why? Because the 9/11 Commission uncovered the NORAD deception pretty quickly.

Secondly, the deception itself didn't hide any nefarious behaviour.

-Andrew

[Gravy]

geggy!
Evidence?

[defaultdotxbe]

The only serious criticism I have of the air defense response to September 11 was the delay in getting a shoot down order - IMHO there should have been systems in place, and permission should not have needed to go as high as the executive.

thsi is directly related to the fact that there were no standing orders in place authorizing the use of deadly force on a civilian aircraft (no one ever anticipated the need to shoot one down)

and the criticism i have is not on the military itself, but of the individuals in the chain of command, it seems to me like a case of pass-the-buck, no one wanted to take the responsibility of giving the order to shoot down a plane full of civilians so it traveled up the chain

[gumboot]

and the criticism i have is not on the military itself, but of the individuals in the chain of command, it seems to me like a case of pass-the-buck, no one wanted to take the responsibility of giving the order to shoot down a plane full of civilians so it traveled up the chain


Absolutely!

-Andrew

[valis]

That's right! Until you blew the lid on it, NORAD had successfully convinced everyone that they had, in fact, successfully stopped the terrorist attacks on 9/11.

And they would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling kids.

[valis]

I mostly agree with you here. My only criticism is the notion that the current administration screwed up.

I totally disagree. I believe the seeds that made the success of the terrorist attack inevitable were laid the the decade before 9/11, when the US repeatedly failed to treat terrorism as a serious threat - both at home and abroad.

And Going into my own rant...:p

I believe this is a wider problem. The entire west made the same failures, ever since the 70's, when terrorism really started to hit us hard. I believe most of the west is still making the exact same errors. We still don't treat terrorism as a serious threat.

I think the worst repercussion of our failures over the last 30 years or so are still to come.

-Andrew


I could not agree more. They saw Carter humbled by the Iranians. Reagan pull out of Beruit. Bush fail to finish of Iraq. And Clinton make a stern speech and fire a few cruise missles. It showed the world that America is very unwilling to fight, no matter what the provication and when it does it takes very little to make us run away.

I think the idea that another administration will somehow compile an unbiased report to be silly. If it is a Dem. administration then it will just be time to score points and engage in hyperbole for their own purposes.

[gumboot]

I could not agree more. They saw Carter humbled by the Iranians. Reagan pull out of Beruit. Bush fail to finish of Iraq. And Clinton make a stern speech and fire a few cruise missles. It showed the world that America is very unwilling to fight, no matter what the provication and when it does it takes very little to make us run away.


Don't forget Osama Bin Laden has repeatedly used Somalia as evidence that the US can be sent packing after a mere 18 deaths...

The tactic of use RPG spams against helicopter tail rotors was a tactic the Mujahedeen picked up in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets (except they used stingers, of course).

-Andrew

[geggy]

gumboot

I feel like I'm going in circles in here. Please do take another look at the timeline of military exercises here. and I do mean look closely..

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises

After having seen the timeline, it becomes relatively easy to understand that the reason for NORAD's slow reponses to the hijacked planes because they were confused, delayed and distracted by the numerous wargames. NORAD radar screens showed as many as 22 hijacked airliners at the same time. In recent reports of pentagon's deception and cover up, the commission failed (or deliberately avoided) to mention the wargame exercises that took place on 9/11. The commission report only mentioned one exercise which was the vigilant guardian when in fact there were at least 6 exercises occuring at the time.

By the way, dick cheney was handed permission to directly control all wargame and drill operations by president bush in may of 2001.

and lastly, WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As horrified Americans watched the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, unfold on their television sets, Vice President Dick Cheney directed the U.S. government's response from an emergency bunker.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/11/ar911.king.cheney/

proof enough for you?

[geggy]

"It was a clear day, there were no weather problems, and then we saw the second airplane hit in real time," Cheney told CNN's John King in an interview in the vice president's office.

Funny thing here that I want to mention...cheney's inital reaction to the first hit in NYC was he thought it was an accident. Why would he think that when in fact, the white house had received numerous warnings that an attack in lower manhattan was imminent?

[Rob Lister]

[b]..cheney's inital reaction to the first hit in NYC was he thought it was an accident. Why would he think that when in fact, the white house had received numerous warnings that an attack in lower manhattan was imminent?


Because it was ominous and surreal, mayhaps? That was my initial reaction as well. Not because I'm stupid, but because I have (had) a flaw in actually believing that nobody would intentionally do such a thing. Were I a real Israeli, I'd likely have had no doubt.

[gumboot]

gumboot

I feel like I'm going in circles in here. Please do take another look at the timeline of military exercises here. and I do mean look closely..


Geggy, I have read that ENTIRE timeline. It took me weeks. There are a LOT of things in that timeline that are wrong, or simply rumour.

Yes, NORAD have done exercises for terrorist attacks before, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

There was ONE NORAD exercise happening on 9/11. Got that Geggy? ONE. Not three, not twelve, not fifteen. ONE.



it becomes relatively easy to understand that the reason for NORAD's slow reponses to the hijacked planes because they were confused delayed and distracted by the numerous wargames.


Geggy! Please! I have heard the ACTUAL recordings from NEADS! They were not confused! They were not slow! They were not delayed! They were not distracted! The wargame was irrelevant! Got it?



NORAD radar screens showed as many as 22 hijacked airliners at the same time. In recent reports of pentagon's deception and cover up, the commission failed (or deliberately avoided) to mention the wargame exercises that took place on 9/11.


What on earth are you talking about???

Geggy get up with the play. Why are you acting like some big Pentagon coverup has recently been revealed? This is what happened:

NORAD staff said X to 9/11 commission in their testimonies
9/11 commission listened to NORAD tapes and discovered truth was Y
9/11 commission told NORAD staff off for lying
9/11 commission report published

few years gap

FOIA released NORAD tapes to Vanity Fair
Vanity Fair do detailed article on NORAD release
Geggy and other CTers scream cover-up at the "new" information.

THIS IS NOT NEW! The commission discovered this DURING their investigation. Okay?

Geggy I suggest you read my NORAD response timeline. It is in this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61752) thread.

Please read this and then explain how they were confused/delayed/whatever.

Bear in mind Geggy, these tapes are the EVIDENCE that NORAD lied in their original testimonies. If these recordings are false or faked, there goes your evidence of a "cover-up" (as you like to call it).



The commission report only mentioned one exercise which was the vigilant guardian when in fact there were at least 6 exercises occuring at the time.

Okay, humour me. Name them. Come on. Tell me what they were called, and what sort of exercise they were.




By the way, dick cheney was handed permission to directly control all wargame and drill operations by president bush in may of 2001.

All? For the whole military? Or the whole government? Every exercise? You sure? Do you have a source for this? Cheney must be some sort of demigod to control that many exercises.



proof enough for you?

No. Because I have the NORAD recordings. You have nothing but claims. Empty, hollow claims.

-Andrew