Randi and Canada

[Bearguin]

From todays piece.

I became a citizen of the USA back in 1987, for a specific reason. I was unhappy with several experiences I'd had back home in Canada, in relation to freedom of expression and freedom from unwarranted searches.

So, as a Canadian, I'm curious what exactly these experiences were?

Are they public kjnowledge, and if so could someone share them?

If they are a private matter, then it is none of my business and I can accept that.

[BillyJoe]

Hey Gods, I hate to tell you this but you won't be receiving any reply from the famous Mr. Randi.

[Randi]

When I travelled with the Alice Cooper show back in the 70's, we were in Niagara Falls and I found the RCMP destroying locker contents of the musicians, breaking open their instrument cases, in a search for drugs. They found nothing.

I was told very rudely that they needed no permission nor warrant to do this, and I was threatened, as a Canadian citizen at that time, that I could "go missing" for several weeks if I didn't back off.

The RCMP trashed everything, tearing up posters and photos, just because they didn't like the "godless" group.

There are other events, too, which I don't care to share.

James Randi.

[Martin]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Hey Gods, I hate to tell you this but you won't be receiving any reply from the famous Mr. Randi. It appears the million is safe from you, then.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Martinm
It appears the million is safe from you, then. :D

Yeah well, I think its amazing Randi replying. :cool:

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by Randi
The RCMP trashed everything, tearing up posters and photos, just because they didn't like the "godless" group.

I appreciate your frustrations at this appalling abuse of police power, but this is hardly a uniquely Canadian phenomenon. I realise you didn't state otherwise, but I can't help finding it ironic that your reaction to the actions of the RCMP was to relocate to the south of America, an area that's no stranger to religious intollerance.

[BillyJoe]

Ian,

There's obviously more to it than Randi has revealed as, in fact, he has hinted in his post. But I'm willing to wager - my life this time - that he will not respond again. Nice try though.

:cool:

BillyJoe

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Randi
When I travelled with the Alice Cooper show back in the 70's, we were in Niagara Falls and I found the RCMP destroying locker contents of the musicians, breaking open their instrument cases, in a search for drugs. They found nothing.

I was told very rudely that they needed no permission nor warrant to do this, and I was threatened, as a Canadian citizen at that time, that I could "go missing" for several weeks if I didn't back off.

The RCMP trashed everything, tearing up posters and photos, just because they didn't like the "godless" group.

There are other events, too, which I don't care to share.

James Randi.

in the not so distant past:

The RCMP Security Service regularly busted up meetings deemed seperatist, communist, or anarchy gatherings. Their investigations would be something to be desired. The RCMP Security Service developed a reputation of being brutal enforcers of the status quo.

http://www.spying101.com/

Now this site may be deemed radical, but I assure you that the activities of the RCMP Security Service over the years have been suspect in regards to Human Rights infringement. There is not a person over the age of 40 that I know that does not have a story about their activities at meetings, rallies, and on campuses around the country.

Despite what the site claims, these items are not revealing news items or documemts that have just come turned up recently. There have been concerns for decades, and there has been a lot of political pressure for reform.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/8427-e.htm

Now I am not sure if the RCMP Mr. Randi observed were Security Service, so these references may be irrelevant and the Security Service may have had no connection to that event.



"The McDonald ... Commission found that the Service lacked sophistication and analytical ability. In particular, there was an inability to distinguish subversion from dissent and a concomitant anti-left wing bias. The Service also lacked a precise mandate, effective political control and adequate review of its activities."

[Bearguin]

Thanks for the reply.

Interesting.

I'd like to think things are better up here now, but it seems the focus has changed from Rock to guns. The RCMP (to the best of my understanding) don't need a warrant if they suspect unregistered guns in your house.

Oh, and BillyJoe
Nah nah. ;)

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne


I appreciate your frustrations at this appalling abuse of police power, but this is hardly a uniquely Canadian phenomenon. I realise you didn't state otherwise, but I can't help finding it ironic that your reaction to the actions of the RCMP was to relocate to the south of America, an area that's no stranger to religious intollerance.

Religious intolerance perhaps, but warrantless searches were and still are somewhat more restricted.

NA

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Gods Advocate
Oh, and BillyJoe
Nah nah. ;) Well Advocate, you have the Gods on your side but I am here all on my lonesome. :(

[kourama]

Being a Canadian, I find it utterly humiliating that the first few words of our constitution are:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"

That came about in 1982, and I suspected Randi's choice perhaps had something to do with it.

God is mentioned in our national anthem as well.

As a side note: this Saturday I'm really getting my nose rubbed in it - I fell in love and agreed to a Greek-orthodox Church wedding.

[Deadbeat]

Being a Canadian, I find it utterly humiliating that the first few words of our constitution are:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"

And of course, there's the ever-so-popular "not withstanding" clause that makes a mockery out of the entire thing anyway...

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by kourama
.....this Saturday I'm really getting my nose rubbed in it - I fell in love and agreed to a Greek-orthodox Church wedding. Could have been worse - could have been Friday 13th :eek:

BTW, congratulations I'm sure and be sure to give the bride a big kiss and tell her that's a big sloppy one from BillyJoe.

regards,
BillyJoe

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


Religious intolerance perhaps, but warrantless searches were and still are somewhat more restricted.

NA

Right, they have to suspect you of having hemp or a connection to the Middle East.

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by kourama
Being a Canadian, I find it utterly humiliating that the first few words of our constitution are:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"

That came about in 1982, and I suspected Randi's choice perhaps had something to do with it.

God is mentioned in our national anthem as well.

As a side note: this Saturday I'm really getting my nose rubbed in it - I fell in love and agreed to a Greek-orthodox Church wedding.

Interestingly enough, in comparatively backwards nations like Norway where a particular subsect of Lutheranism is established by the government, religious racketeers like Pat Robertson don't flourish quite as well as they do under the US consitution. Ironically, Robertson keeps calling for legislation to gut exactly the sections of the constitution which allow his racket to thrive.

[arcticpenguin]

I am shocked to find the RCMP behaves like this. I guess all those episodes of Dudley Dooright were just propaganda.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by kourama
Being a Canadian, I find it utterly humiliating that the first few words of our constitution are:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"


I dislike that as well.

On the other hand, the Canadian constitution doesn't really have much protection for a lot of freedoms (for example, from what I understand, there is no protection of "property rights".)

The Canadian constitution stresses "Peace, order and good government". The American system stresses "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Which would you prefer?

[roger]

Originally posted by Segnosaur
The Canadian constitution stresses "Peace, order and good government". The American system stresses "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Which would you prefer?

The latter.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Segnosaur


On the other hand, the Canadian constitution doesn't really have much protection for a lot of freedoms (for example, from what I understand, there is no protection of "property rights".)
While you are correct that there is no explicit right to property, I challenge you to find another right or freedom that is not covered by the Charter. You are incorrect when you say "doesn't really have much protection for a lot of freedoms".

The Canadian constitution stresses "Peace, order and good government". The American system stresses "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Which would you prefer?
I prefer peace, order and good government (POGG) myself. It has helped make Canada a better place to live than the United States (in my opinion, and the opinion of the United Natios survey that gets done each year.).

We do have protection against the deprivatoin of "life, liberty and security of the person" as well.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Thanz

While you are correct that there is no explicit right to property, I challenge you to find another right or freedom that is not covered by the Charter. You are incorrect when you say "doesn't really have much protection for a lot of freedoms".


Well, property rights are the one big thing I was thinking about.

As someone else pointed out, we do have the "notwithstanding" clause, which also allows governments to ignore parts of the constitution.

For the more "right wing" people, the Americans have firearm rights that we lack.

Although I don't know if its explicitly spelled out in the consitution, I believe the "Miranda" warnings that you always hear about in the U.S. cop shows don't apply the same way here (i.e. I don't think the cops have to read you your rights, you only have a right to a phone call if you ask, etc.)

And then, there were the searches, alluded to by Randi in his posting.

Originally posted by Thanz

I prefer peace, order and good government (POGG) myself. It has helped make Canada a better place to live than the United States (in my opinion, and the opinion of the United Natios survey that gets done each year.).


Personally, I'd prefer to have both POGG, AND LLTPOH.

Unfortunately, crime rates show that we don't really have 'peace' and 'order'. (Ok, they are down from their peak from a couple of years ago, but much higher than a few decades ago.) And as for 'good government', I can't imagine a government more corrupt than the one we have now.

Originally posted by Thanz

We do have protection against the deprivatoin of "life, liberty and security of the person" as well.

And I'm sure the Americans have rules to promote Peace, Order and Good Government.

[xouper]

Thanz: I prefer peace, order and good government (POGG) myself. It has helped make Canada <span style="background-color: #ffc">a better place to live</span> than the United States...Pardon while I roll on the floor laughing.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by xouper
Pardon while I roll on the floor laughing.

Laugh all you want, but the United Nations has consistently placed Canada in the top three (often placing number one) as the best country in the world to live in.
I've lived in both the US and Canada and it's not coincidence that I'm back here. I liked the US, but I like Canada better.

I have found the egocentric nature of most Americans makes it impossible for them to even consider the idea that there are better countries in the world to live in than the US, but it's true, I'm afraid.

[xouper]

KelvinG: I've lived in both the US and Canada and it's not coincidence that I'm back here. I liked the US, but I like Canada better.That's fine. I happen to like the U.S. better. And so do many other ex-Canadians, including James Randi.

I have found the egocentric nature of most Americans makes it impossible for them to even consider the idea that there are better countries in the world to live in than the US, but it's true, I'm afraid.I have found the egocentric nature of most Canadians makes it impossible for them to even consider the idea that anyone would perfer to live in the U.S. instead of Canada, but it's true, I'm afraid.

The reason I laughed in my earlier post is because "better" is such a subjective thing. The criteria used by the U.N. to rank countries as "best" are not the only factors, nor even the most important factors. There is no objective standard for measuring the "best" country to live in.

Each person must decide for themselves what factors are most important, and I am not bound by your choices, nor those of the U.N. That's why I laughed.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by xouper
That's fine. I happen to like the U.S. better. And so do many other ex-Canadians, including James Randi.

I have found the egocentric nature of most Canadians makes it impossible for them to even consider the idea that anyone would perfer to live in the U.S. instead of Canada, but it's true, I'm afraid.

The reason I laughed in my earlier post is because "better" is such a subjective thing. The criteria used by the U.N. to rank countries as "best" are not the only factors, nor even the most important factors. There is no objective standard for measuring the "best" country to live in.

Each person must decide for themselves what factors are most important, and I am not bound by your choices, nor those of the U.N. That's why I laughed.

Fair enough.
However, I have not found the same egocentric nature in Canadians. I can totally understand why some people would choose to live in the US. I can understand why people would live in Britian. Or Holland. or France...
Yes, some Canadians are befuddled why anyone would want to live in the US, the same way some Americans are befuddled that anyone would want to live in Canada. I guess that depends on the type of person you are.

And yes, there is no objective standard for measuring the "best" country to live in. That is exactly why I'm often so defensive when some (not all, of course) Americans continually holler how their country is the best in the world, and laugh at the notion that other countries even come close (which I thought is what you were doing).

So, we are actually on the same page on this one.
Cheers.

[xouper]

KelvinG: Fair enough. ... So, we are actually on the same page on this one.Yes, it would seem so. Perhaps I mentioned once before that my father lives in Victoria, BC? He's retired now, but he used to drive boats for BC Ferries.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by xouper
Yes, it would seem so. Perhaps I mentioned once before that my father lives in Victoria, BC? He's retired now, but he used to drive boats for BC Ferries.

Cool. I did not know that.

[NoDeity]

I'd like to point out that the disgusting display that Randi witnessed took place before we had the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which came into effect in 1982. I don't know, of course, that something similar couldn't happen today but the charter was followed by a rash of court cases that challenged existing laws or practices on the basis that they contravened the charter and many of those cases were successful. It appears that there were changes after 1982.

It's true that property rights are not specifically mentioned in the charter. However, perhaps one could argue that the existence of laws against stealing as well as section 8 of the charter, Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, implicitly recognize the existence of property rights. The absence of a specific mention of property rights in the charter does not interfere with that if I understand section 26 correctly: The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed as denying the existence of any other rights or freedoms that exist in Canada.

As for the preamble, Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:, I hate the bit about "the supremacy of God", of course. Apparently, Trudeau was a a deeply religious man. His religion was a personal matter for him, though, and except for that four-word travesty, it doesn't appear to affected his politics too much.

The charter can be viewed here: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by xouper

The reason I laughed in my earlier post is because "better" is such a subjective thing. The criteria used by the U.N. to rank countries as "best" are not the only factors, nor even the most important factors. There is no objective standard for measuring the "best" country to live in.


Ok, I did some searching; the criteria used by the UN to judge what the 'best' country is are the following: per capita income, health care, life expectancy and education.

Now, as yet I haven't found how they weigh each of those factors against each other (how much is income weighted against health care, etc.) Nor have I found anything yet that discusses how each factor is measured. (Most importantly, is there a 'limit' attached? A point after which they say "Ok, additional income or life expectancy will not count against increasing your ranking with the UN because you're doing more than well enough.")

Some factors of importance NOT covered by the UN rankings:
- Employment (The US, even with their current economic troubles, usually has an unemployment rate much lower than Canada's)
- "Freedom" - Stronger protection for property rights, individual liberties in the US than Canada. In theory, a country can be completely non-democratic, but if people live long and are educated, they can be ranked higher than a democracy.
- Environment - Ok, here's where the US may or may not be any better than Canada. But lets face it, Canada can be just as wasteful (if not more) than the US. (This may be partly due to our northern climate)

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by NoDeity
It's true that property rights are not specifically mentioned in the charter. However, perhaps one could argue that the existence of laws against stealing as well as section 8 of the charter, Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, implicitly recognize the existence of property rights. The absence of a specific mention of property rights in the charter does not interfere with that if I understand section 26 correctly: The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed as denying the existence of any other rights or freedoms that exist in Canada.


There have been 2 cases which have made me question Canada's freedom with regard to search and seizure....

The first case involves the government intercepting mail between lawyers and recent/potential immigrants.

The second case involves a gay/lesbian book store in British Columbia called Little Sisters.

In the second case, Canada customs regularly seized shipments meant for the store. In some cases, the material was destroyed, in other cases it was heald for a long time before being 'released', causing all sorts of financial headaches. (The pathetic thing is, much of the material was actually already available IN PUBLIC LIBRARIES.) So, this case was eventually fought all the way to the supreme court. What did the court rule? Canada customs said "Hey, we're doing better now", so the court said "Ok, you can keep seizing stuff if you want."

[NoDeity]

The Little Sisters case is certainly a troubling one.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by NoDeity
The Little Sisters case is certainly a troubling one.

I saw part of the supreme court case for this on CPAC.

The entire government defence seemed to be "We made mistakes in the past, but in the past few years we've made a few administrative changes". And the supreme court bought it.

So, any parcel/mail that comes into the country can be opened and searched, all in the name of protecting us from "evil pornography". I've heard of cases of computer equipment being ruined when cases were opened, people have had DVDs of Anime (read: cartoons) confiscated, all with limited (read: virtually no) chance for appeal.

I guess the supreme court is more concerned making sure illegal refugees get free health care than they are about protecting Canadian's rights.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

The officers implicated in this investigation are not Security Service (I am not even sure it exists anymore, but since 9/11 maybe it has been re-commisioned).
The perceptions are that there are problems within the RCMP and how individuals behave. Just for perspective, not many Officers get investigated. Many fine men and women serve in the RCMP.



To avoid a paper headeache the RCMP gave "starlight tours".

An urban legend, or is reality stranger than fiction?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/firstnations/starlighttours.html

timeline

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/firstnations/stonechild.html

Isolated incidents or a cultural norm within the RCMP?

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/06/09/stonechild030609

Possible victims:

Neil Stonechild, 17 (deceased)
Lloyd Dustyhorn, 53 (deceased)
Darrell Night (surviver)
Rodney Naistus, 25 (deceased)
Lawrence Wegner, 30 (deceased)

[NoDeity]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
The officers implicated in this investigation are not Security Service (I am not even sure it exists anymore, but since 9/11 maybe it has been re-commisioned).
The RCMP Security Service was replaced by the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS) following the McDonald Commission, which studied the Security Service for four years, starting in 1977. The report was very critical of the service.

The Parliamentary Research Branch has a paper about CSIS, including history, at http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/8427-e.htm

Whether the activities of CSIS are any less objectionable than those of the body it replaced, I have no idea.

[synaesthesia]

Here in Canada, legitimate gun owners are technically automatically vulnerable to searches. Criminal gun owners, having not registered their guns, aren't.

When you look beneath the surface, Canadian law has quite a bit less respect for free speech than American law. Our hate crime laws are veeeery flexible.

[NoDeity]

On the other hand, Canada is less repressive than the U.S. in some ways. In some ways, Canada is more respectful of the freedom and responsibility of the individual. For example, looking to the near future, you're not going to be thrown in jail for having a bit of marijuana in your pocket and you're not going to be prevented from becoming legally married to a person of the same sex as you if that's what you want to do.

Of course, this could be a case of being very permissive where it does not threaten the authority and control of the state while tightening up in areas that do have the potential to threaten.

[Bearguin]

Originally posted by synaesthesia
Here in Canada, legitimate gun owners are technically automatically vulnerable to searches. Criminal gun owners, having not registered their guns, aren't.



I'm wondering if you have a source for that information. I've heard the same as well, but that the RCMP won't need a warrant to search your home if they suspect an unregistered weapon. Trouble is I can't remember where I heard it and don't really know how true it is.

Do you know of a good site that has factual information on the topic?

[FFed]

Originally posted by xouper

I have found the egocentric nature of most Canadians makes it impossible for them to even consider the idea that anyone would perfer to live in the U.S. instead of Canada, but it's true, I'm afraid.

I agree completely.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by NoDeity
On the other hand, Canada is less repressive than the U.S. in some ways. In some ways, Canada is more respectful of the freedom and responsibility of the individual. For example, looking to the near future, you're not going to be thrown in jail for having a bit of marijuana in your pocket and you're not going to be prevented from becoming legally married to a person of the same sex as you if that's what you want to do.

Of course, this could be a case of being very permissive where it does not threaten the authority and control of the state while tightening up in areas that do have the potential to threaten.


Absolutely. For another example, if you are a terrorist and wish to cross the border to blow things up in the USA, no problem. Not Canada's concern.

[NoDeity]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Absolutely. For another example, if you are a terrorist and wish to cross the border to blow things up in the USA, no problem. Not Canada's concern.
I hope you meant that as a joke. If not, please provide evidence.

[xouper]

KelvinG: I have found the egocentric nature of most Americans makes it impossible for them to even consider the idea that there are better countries in the world to live in than the US, but it's true, I'm afraid.

xouper: I have found the egocentric nature of most Canadians makes it impossible for them to even consider the idea that anyone would perfer to live in the U.S. instead of Canada, but it's true, I'm afraid.

FFed: I agree completely.EERRKK. :) I don't actually believe what I wrote. I was attempting to poke fun at Kelvin's comment.

The UN, in its ranking of countries, admits that there is little difference in the top ten. And for many years, the U.S. was third on the list and is currently 6th. Likewise, I don't imagine that many people in the U.K. (which ranks 14th) would concede that the U.S is a "better" country to live in (especially those who don't like our Second Amendment :p).

[Lavie Enrose]

Originally posted by Gods Advocate
I'm wondering if you have a source for that information. I've heard the same as well, but that the RCMP won't need a warrant to search your home if they suspect an unregistered weapon. Trouble is I can't remember where I heard it and don't really know how true it is.

Personal Information and the Firearms Act (http://www.clairejoly.org/laf/artprive_eng.html)

Gun collectors already know that Bill C-68 opens the door for disturbing police practices such as "inspections" without warrants (section 102 of the Firearms Act).

Section 102 of the Firearms Act (http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/cfm/ENGLISH/LEG/FA/1010000D.HTM)

[Lavie Enrose]

Originally posted by Randi
When I travelled with the Alice Cooper show back in the 70's...

"The most powerful radio ad I've ever heard began with: `You are cordially invited to the hanging of MR. Alice Cooper.' How much excitement and information can YOU pack into 11 words? I love Alice Cooper. I love the music. It's real rock 'n' roll. It's full of fun ideas. It's always had a clear character and plot, and my parents could never understand it.

"But, nothing compared to the live show. I was from a small town, and I hadn't seen much live music. I had seen almost no theater. I hadn't even seen a magic show live, but I always HATED magic acts on TV. I mean, I really didn't want to see a greasy guy in a tux with a lot of birds, torturing women in front of a Mylar curtain to small-dick-white-boy-rip-off Motown music. But, when I saw Alice, I learned that magic tricks in a theater could knock you out of your head. These weren't random special effects; these were plotted, impossible things that we knew weren't happening, but that we couldn't figure out. You didn't have to suspend your disbelief very much for it to look like he was being hanged. It was the perfect theatrical depiction of pain and death that celebrates adolescent health and life. I found out later that Alice was getting some of his miracles from another hero, James `The Amazing' Randi. It figures.

"I'm now a professional magician, and the only magic tricks that I liked as a kid were Alice's. Alice showed me the power of tricks; showed me that you could make people scream. I'm 43 years old and I still play and sing `I'm Eighteen' when my little garage band gets together."

--Penn Jillette
Penn & Teller

[xouper]

Penn Jillette: I'm 43 years old and I still play and sing `I'm Eighteen' when my little garage band gets together."Way to go, Penn!!

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by NoDeity

I hope you meant that as a joke. If not, please provide evidence.

I think Canada's lax refugee laws (and their absolute refusal to do anything about the situation) is evidence enough.

It should be noted that none of the 9/11 hijackers came though Canada (although some originally suspected a Canadian connection). However, there was the bomber who was caught several years ago crossing the border out west (the plan was to attack I believe Los Angeles on the eve of the millenium).

[NoDeity]

Originally posted by Segnosaur


I think Canada's lax refugee laws (and their absolute refusal to do anything about the situation) is evidence enough.
That's a pretty vague and subjective judgement.

It should be noted that none of the 9/11 hijackers came though Canada (although some originally suspected a Canadian connection). However, there was the bomber who was caught several years ago crossing the border out west (the plan was to attack I believe Los Angeles on the eve of the millenium).
And this single incident proves what? Relate your answer to the accusation, which I'll quote again:
For another example, if you are a terrorist and wish to cross the border to blow things up in the USA, no problem. Not Canada's concern.

[Bearguin]

Originally posted by Lavie Enrose


Personal Information and the Firearms Act (http://www.clairejoly.org/laf/artprive_eng.html)



Section 102 of the Firearms Act (http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/cfm/ENGLISH/LEG/FA/1010000D.HTM)

So, if I read that correctly, they need a warrant to enter my home but they will not need a warrant to enter a business. Not sure why the distinction.

[hgc]

Lost in all this discussion is the whole giant pancake situation. Let's not lose sight of that.

[Mike B.]

Hey lets call it even and say US and Canada are both fine places to live in!!!

:)

[synaesthesia]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Hey lets call it even and say US and Canada are both fine places to live in!!!

:)

Both sides of the border are filled incredible smugness. The Americans simply have better reasons to be smug.

[xouper]

synaesthesia: Both sides of the border are filled incredible smugness. The Americans simply have better reasons to be smug.I have family living on boths sides of the border. I'm bi-smuggual.

[Torlack]

I've been living in Alberta (that is in Canada for all you stupid Americans which I am one :D ) and I have only met one total twit and one border line twit here. These are the people who think it is their national duty to make you fully aware how much better Canada is than the U.S.. Too bad most of their "facts" are little more than imagination.

Everyone else has been great. Very friendly people up here in the Edmonton area. It reminds me a lot of home (Atlanta, GA).