propaganda and human shields

[FireGarden]

Winning the Propaganda War by Jonathan Cook (http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9475)

I live in northern Israel in the Arab city of Nazareth. A week into the war we were hit by Hezbollah rockets that killed two young brothers. The attack, it was widely claimed, was proof either that Hezbollah was indiscriminately targeting civilians...

The real target of the strike was known to Nazarenes: close by the city are a military weapons factory and a large army camp.


[...] One of Hezbollah's first rocket attacks after the outbreak of hostilities – after Israel went on a bombing offensive by blitzing targets across Lebanon – was on a kibbutz overlooking the border with Lebanon. Some foreign correspondents noted at the time (though given Israel's press censorship laws I cannot confirm) that the rocket strike targeted a top-secret military traffic control center built into the Galilee's hills.

There are hundreds of similar military installations next to or inside Israel's northern communities. Some distance from Nazareth, for example, Israel has built a large weapons factory virtually on top of an Arab town – so close to it, in fact, that the factory's perimeter fence is only a few meters from the main building of the local junior school. There have been reports of rockets landing close to that Arab community.

How these kind of attacks are being unfairly presented in the Israeli and foreign media was highlighted recently when it was widely reported that a Hezbollah rocket had landed "near a hospital" in a named Israeli city, not the first time that such a claim has been made over the past few weeks. I cannot name the city, again because of Israel's press censorship laws and because I also want to point out that very "near" that hospital is an army camp. The media suggested that Hezbollah was trying to hit the hospital, but it is also more than possible it was trying to strike – and may have struck – the army camp.

[zenith-nadir]

I rebut Jonathan Cook's opinion piece with...

Mon Jul 24, 6:22 PM ET (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060724/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_aid) - Associated Press

BEIRUT, Lebanon - The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of "cowardly blending" in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.

"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said.

According to Jonathan Cook's opinion the U.N. humanitarian chief is lying.

Thursday, July 27, 2006 (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50)

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

According to Jonathan Cook's opinion Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener & Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie are lying.

July 30, 2006 12:00am (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html)

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

According to Jonathan Cook's opinion the Herald Sun is lying too.

Infact everyone is lying about Hezbollah using the Lebanese population as human shields except, it seems, Jonathan Cook, HRW & Hezbollah. Maybe they - the Herald Sun, Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie and the U.N. humanitarian chief - are all part of the worldwide zionist conspiracy to make Hezbollah look bad....I dunno. :con2:

[FireGarden]

And I suppose Haaretz was lying when they said the IDF had admitted no rockets where launched from Qana on the day of the strike.

And I suppose you believe Hezbollah were in the area of the UN post the whole time it was shelled -- 14 artillery strikes before the guided missile. Hezbollah launched from the roof of a UN building?

Hezbollah were in Lebanon within sight of the UN post. It's an observation post. They're supposed to be where they can observe things.

IDF hits after Hezbollah have left. That is not Hezbollah using human shields. That is Israel having no regard for human life.




B'tselem (http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp) is an Israeli human rights group.

Israeli Soldiers use civilians as Human Shields in Beit Hanun (http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp)

B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield.

After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours. During this time, there were intense exchanges of gunfire between the soldiers and armed Palestinians.

[...] Threatening the occupants with his weapon, one of the soldiers ordered 'Aza Kafarneh, a 43-year old woman, to accompany him to search each of the floors in the building and to open the doors of each of the rooms.


[...] Following the search, one of the soldiers took Hazem's cell phone and called four persons whose numbers were in the phone's memory. The soldier told each of them: "If you want Hazem, Tareq, and 'Emad released, bring your weapons." According to Hazem's testimony, the four persons work with him at Ramatan and were selected at random; none of them have any weapons.

[gumboot]

Hezbollah were in Lebanon within sight of the UN post. It's an observation post. They're supposed to be where they can observe things.

IDF hits after Hezbollah have left. That is not Hezbollah using human shields. That is Israel having no regard for human life.



I don't believe you're clearly read the accounts the UNMOs gave - some of whom are now dead.

A number of them did and have specifically and categorically stated that Hizbollah were using the UN base as a shield. This was not hinted or interpreted. These people who were there said it. They have also said that Hizbollah has fired at them, and Hizbollah has attacked their convoys. This has been going on for a long time.

-Andrew

[Katana]

Well, with this I certainly agree.

He notes in his article that "this is a propaganda war as much as a shooting one." He is right, but does not seem to know who is really winning the propaganda offensive.

[FireGarden]

From the HRW report (thanks Leif Roar)

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm

Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.

You see, nobody denies that Hezbollah has done wrong. They are saying that Israel is hitting targets after Hezbollah have left.

Hezbollah had gone by the time the IDF KOed the UNpost. They hadn't fired a rocket from Qana on the day of the strike.

That is the point.

When the UN post was hit, there was no genuine target in the area. And Hezbollah did not launch rockets from the roof of a UN post. So why hit the building? Because the IAF was too slow to hit Hezbollah.

[FireGarden]

The Haaretz link may as well be in this thread too:

Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html)

As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident.

It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.

[Geckko]

From the HRW report (thanks Leif Roar):

those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force

Is it you claim that Israeli forces are being deployed "indiscriminately"?

[webfusion]

Bridges are being destroyed.
Why? Because at some point, in the past or in the future, they may be used by Hezbollah to transport weapons.

Same thing with fuel depots & the airports, and a naval blockade is being enforced. The point of everything is to use overwhelming force and cause a capitulation.

If they don't wish to capitulate, then the force and detruction will continue.
This is really a basic concept.

[FireGarden]

A case in point for the propaganda war.

At least 10 dead, 13 hurt, in massive Hezbollah rocket barrage across north (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746936.html)

At least ten people were killed Sunday afternoon and 13 wounded, four of them seriously, in a direct hit on an open area in the northern community of Kfar Giladi, as Hezbollah renewed its rocket fire against Israel with what was described as an enormous barrage.

The condition of two of the victims suffering from serious wounds deteriorated after arriving at the Rambam Medical Center in Haifa.

Following the attack Hezbollah continued shelling that same area for a prolonged period, but no additional casualties were reported.

And a lot of US media is reporting similar.

EuroNews -- 10 Israeli soldiers killed in rocket attack (http://euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_info&article=373820&lng=1)

A new Hizbollah rocket attack has killed at least ten soldiers in northern Israel. News agencies said the victims were all army reservists. Eyewitnesses said there was a 15 minute barrage consisting of about 100 missiles. Israeli media said further details were withheld under military censorship. It is the deadliest missile attack so far by Hizbollah militants against Israel and brings the death toll from cross border rockets in the war to 43.

Reports say it was a direct hit on a kibbutz at Kfar Giladi near Kyriat Shmona. Twenty other people were injured, four of them seriously. They were taken to hospital in Haifa. Ambulancemen evacuated victims as rockets continued to fall.
Israel replied to the attack with an artillery barrage against suspected launch sites in south Lebanon.

10 soldiers dead.
And if you believe other sites, the reason the fire burned so long was because an arms dump had been hit.


Hezbollah controls the news....
Not in the US!

The list on google news [search for Kfar Giladi] has papers from Boston, Chicago, etc with headlines saying 10 people dead.

They were soldiers. People, but not merely people. Soldiers.

[FireGarden]

A search for a reference to soldiers turns up:

Daily Mail (UK) -- Hezbollah rocket attack kills ten Israeli soldiers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=399298&in_page_id=1811)

DNA World (India) -- Hezbollah rocket kills 10 Israeli soldiers (http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1045683)

Ten Israeli soldiers were killed and at least nine others were wounded when a Hezbollah rocket slammed into a group of reservists in northern Israel on Sunday, medics and Israeli media said.

The attack on Kfar Giladi village was the deadliest Hezbollah rocket strike since war with Israel erupted on July 12 after the guerrillas seized two soldiers in a cross-border raid.

The army confirmed reserve soldiers called up for duty in the Lebanon offensive had been killed, but did not say how many.

The Magen David Adom ambulance service said 10 were killed and another nine wounded, four critically.

A reporter for Army Radio said people in the village stood around in shock and wept as they looked at the bodies, some covered in blankets. The attack took place near the village graveyard.

Israeli soldiers near Israeli civilians? How dare they!


(Sacramento Bee) -- Hezbollah rockets kill 10 in Israel (http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/front/story/3345064p-12317261c.html)

Hezbollah guerrillas fired a barrage of rockets across northern Israel Sunday, killing 10 people at a communal farm and wounding eight in the worst attack on Israel since fighting erupted July 12.

One rocket landed near the entrance of the communal farm of Kfar Giladi on the border, killing all 10 victims. Channel Two television reported that nine reserve soldiers were among the dead, and television footage showed a soldier holding his head in grief.

So they've heard soldiers were killed, but the headline and first paragraph make no reference to soldiers.

(Ireland online) -- Soldiers killed in rocket attack (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=157139980&p=y57y4x56x)

From the more general search for Kfar Giladi: (Also the Eurnews link)

(Phillyburbs) -- Hezbollah Rockets Kill 10 in N. Israel (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/93-08062006-694157.html)

Washington Post -- Hezbollah Rockets Kill 10 in N. Israel (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/06/AR2006080600177.html) (Their article says soldiers died, but not the headline or the first paragraph)

[WildCat]

Hezbollah controls the news....
Not in the US!
But they do control the news that comes from south Lebanon. No one claims that Hezbollah, for example, controls the reporting of what happens in Chicago's city council.

[zenith-nadir]

From the HRW report (thanks Leif Roar)

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm

Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties.(emphasis mine)

You see, nobody denies that Hezbollah has done wrong. They are saying that Israel is hitting targets after Hezbollah have left.I am not saying "they are there" 100% of the time but even HRW aknowledges that Hezbollah does place:

weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observersUnder the rules of war a military objective can refer to a specific target for neutralization or destruction. Immunity for any places, localities, or objects used solely for humanitarian, cultural, or religious purposes such as hospitals, churches, mosques, schools, or museums is lost if they are used or employed for enemy military purposes - see: the UN outpost.

Hezbollah had gone by the time the IDF KOed the UNpost. They hadn't fired a rocket from Qana on the day of the strike.But Hezbollah had used the outpost for a firing position hadn't they? The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing are the evidence that Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" - (cite (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50))

When the UN post was hit, there was no genuine target in the area. And Hezbollah did not launch rockets from the roof of a UN post. So why hit the building? Because the IAF was too slow to hit Hezbollah.IMO the post was hit so as to remove the shield - the UN oupost - that Hezbollah had been using - and it's documented that Hezbollah had been using it....so it became a legitimate military target. Plain and simple.

[FireGarden]

IMO the post was hit so as to remove the shield - the UN oupost - that Hezbollah had been using - and it's documented that Hezbollah had been using it....so it became a legitimate military target. Plain and simple.

So in your opinion the post was hit on purpose? And the UN soldiers were killed on purpose?

Israel could not have asked the UN observers to leave before taking out the building on a later day?

[zenith-nadir]

So in your opinion the post was hit on purpose?The Israeli armed forces are one of the most highly-trained in the world with vast amounts of combat experience. While all humans are prone to error there is no way that they planned this operation "by mistake". But that is only my opinion as I have no intimate knowledge of the IDFs' operational plans.

And the UN soldiers were killed on purpose?Any loss of non-combatant life incidental to the attack on legitimate military target must be reduced to what is absolutely necessary to accomplish the mission. In this case it was - unfortunately - 4 UN soldiers.

Israel could not have asked the UN observers to leave before taking out the building on a later day?UNIFIL is tasked with achieving peace and security in Southern Lebanon. Since 2000 Israel had been asking UNIFIL to take a more active role in preventing Hezbollah from setting up military posts adjacent to UNIFIL's. Well UNIFIL failed in that mission didn't they?

Ergo UNIFIL failed to fulfill the basic terms of its mandate: "peace and security in Southern Lebanon" and paid the price by allowing Hezbollah to use the outpost as a shield. ( Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield' (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50) - Published: Thursday, July 27, 2006)

I am not a cold-hearted kinda guy, but if it's me or Hezbollah I choose me... and if you get in the way, I am sorry, but it's still me.

[Apollyon]

Hezbollah doesn't need to control the news when the news is willing to help them along by using blatent fakery:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html

Reuters withdraws photograph of Beirut after Air Force attack after US blogs, photographers point out 'blatant evidence of manipulation.' Reuters' head of PR says in response, 'Reuters has suspended photographer until investigations are completed into changes made to photograph.' Photographer who sent altered image is same Reuters photographer behind many of images from Qana, which have also been subject of suspicions for being staged.

A Reuters photograph of smoke rising from buildings in Beirut has been withdrawn after coming under attack by American web logs. The blogs accused Reuters of distorting the photograph to include more smoke and damage.

The photograph showed two very heavy plumes of black smoke billowing from buildings in Beirut after an Air Force attack on the Lebanese capital. Reuters has since withdrawn the photograph from its website, along a message admitting that the image was distorted, and an apology to editors.

...

[SteveGrenard]

There is video surveillance footage of a rocket launcher/emplacement being moved into the car park of the building in Qana which was hit. Since Nasrallah went on teleivison to say he was in complete control of the rocket emplacements in Lebanon nobody other than Hezbollah could have done that. I believe him. This is the building that contained the civilians who died in the Israeli air raid. I have quoted the Chicago Tribune article on the video footage elsewhere.

It is reasonable if one were trying to disarm the enemy that you not only attack when being attacked but that you strive to remove their weapons as well ...at any time. This rocket emplacement was a weapon. To do otherwise is liking saying to a police officer "No, don't take away the robber's gun, you don't know if he has any bullets." Substitute Rocket Launcher=Gun, Substitute Rockets=Bullets. If the robber pulls out the gun the police officer has no way of knowing whether he is going to be shot and killed by this weapon so he will respond with lethal force. He is justified in doing so.

Hezbollah clearly placed these civilians in harm's way when they should've assisted in evacuating them rather than set them up as an Israeli target.

[WildCat]

Hezbollah doesn't need to control the news when the news is willing to help them along by using blatent fakery:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html
Are you saying that Hajj, the photographer, is biased? But that can't be!!! Only Fox News is biased!1!!!!1111

[webfusion]

Three UNIFIL troops hurt by Hezbollah mortar shelling on their base (Reuters)

and

Security forces prevent suicide bombing by arresting Palestinian in Nablus (Itim)


and


IDF confirms PA parliament speaker taken into Israeli custody (Haaretz)

[Apollyon]

Are you saying that Hajj, the photographer, is biased? But that can't be!!! Only Fox News is biased!1!!!!1111
Of course Fox News is biased. Just look at them reporting on Hezbollah attacks that kill Israeli civilians. How dare they!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207201,00.html

U.N. peacekeepers were hit and injured by Hezbollah too:

A Hezbollah rocket blast also injured three Chinese peacekeepers on Sunday, the Chinese state media reported, citing a Chinese officer. The report did not specify where the attack occurred or whether the peacekeepers had been hospitalized.

The attack came hours after China's Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing told U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan in a telephone conversation that the world body should take tangible measures to ensure the security of U.N. peacekeepers, according to the official Xinhua News Agency.

Have you heard if Kofi dropped everything and immediately condemned Hezbollah for this travesty? No word of that so far.

[Polaris]

Is it you claim that Israeli forces are being deployed "indiscriminately"?

He's claiming that because Israel isn't perfect that it's a country of bloodthirsty, child-murdering war criminals.

[FireGarden]

U.N. peacekeepers were hit and injured by Hezbollah too:

The difference being that Hezbollah didn't shell the UN position 14 times over a period of hours while being in contact with the UN soldiers and promising to stop the attack. They also didn't finish off the attack with a precision guided bomb.

So....

Have you heard if Kofi dropped everything and immediately condemned Hezbollah for this travesty? No word of that so far.

No. I haven't heard.
But Hezbollah would be justified in calling it an accident.

Israel's attack can't have been anything other than deliberate. Even Zenith-nadir agrees.

While all humans are prone to error there is no way that they planned this operation "by mistake". But that is only my opinion as I have no intimate knowledge of the IDFs' operational plans.

So Israel does, indeed, deserve more condemnation than Hezbollah for the casualties among UN personel.

He's claiming that because Israel isn't perfect that it's a country of bloodthirsty, child-murdering war criminals

No. I'm claiming Israel is a criminal because Israel deliberately destroys targets like the UN post. And because of statements like:

You're all targets, Israel tells Lebanese in South (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/28/wmid28.xml)

"What we should do in southern Lebanon is employ huge firepower before a ground force goes in," Mr Ramon said at a security cabinet meeting headed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister. "Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hizbollah. Our great advantage vis-a-vis Hizbollah is our firepower, not in face-to-face combat."

Hence, the huge number of civilian casualties.

And even after statements like that, we are supposed to believe the deaths of innocents is "a mistake."

!!!!!

[RyanRoberts]

Huge number of civilian casualites

In comparison to what?

[Leif Roar]

Hezbollah doesn't need to control the news when the news is willing to help them along by using blatent fakery:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html

Did you actually see the two versions of the photo? While the manipulation makes the photo appear more dramatic (and is a big no-no for press photos), how on earth do you suggest the change can be considered to either help or hinder Hezbollah? "Good grief. The Israeli attacks make thicker, blacker smoke than I thought! Clearly Hezbollah is fighting for truth, justice and Lebanese apple pie."

[Darat]

In comparison to what?

I'd assume militia?

[RyanRoberts]

I was assuming in comparison to other asymmetric conflicts where guided weaponry had been used in civilian areas. In comparison to Kosovo, where NATO killed around 500 civilians who if anything were less integrated with combatants it seem Israel is either trying to avoid civilian casualties or is using far less ordinance. Unless of course, you wish to argue that NATO committed war crimes and wantonly targeted civilians during operation allied force.

And then there is the small matter of how trustworthy the civilian casualty count is, given it is not coming from an even nominally independent source.

Does anyone know of a source of simple demographic information about the casualties? The number of males from 14-60 would be a good start.

[FireGarden]

In Kosovo they hit the Chinese embassy (sorry, Old maps!) and factories that had nothing to do with combat.

America bombed a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan -- still no evidence it was anything other than what it said it was.

So others have committed crimes. I don't condone those crimes.

And the existence of other criminals is not a defence.

[RyanRoberts]

So its not just Israel's current actions then? You actually oppose the prosecution of asymmetric warfare using anything like the current western doctrine?

Can I ask you to propose a method by which any country could currently fight a war against a guerilla force without fear of having its commanders dragged in front of the Hague?

[FireGarden]

Does anyone know of a source of simple demographic information about the casualties? The number of males from 14-60 would be a good start.

Yes.

First google result (many papers from all over the world have similar reports):
The Standard -- Hong Knog (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=17&art_id=24311&sid=9162087&con_type=1)

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said in a video message to the OIC nations that his country had now suffered about 900 dead and 3,000 injured, with a third of casualties children under 12.

Which would mean that children are actually over-represented. IE: the men of fighting age you implied in your query where not hiding among the women and children.

[FireGarden]

Can I ask you to propose a method by which any country could currently fight a war against a guerilla force without fear of having its commanders dragged in front of the Hague?

In this conflict, I suggest that Israel stop treating Lebanon as a free-fire zone. I suggest they limit their attacks to places where Hezbollah is known to be present rather than suspected.

They should stop bombing sites after hezbollah has left them. How many hours did they shell the UN post? Did they think Hezbollah had hidden rockets in the UN post?

[RyanRoberts]

I had heard that statistic, but have not seen anything relating to the number of potential combatants.

known

How would you esablish the correct degree of certainty? Qana had video evidence of the building being used to hide a rocket launcher and was still a cock up.

Hidden rockets

They certainly thought they had hidden rockets in Qana. You can even watch the truck drive into the building.

[Leif Roar]

I was assuming in comparison to other asymmetric conflicts where guided weaponry had been used in civilian areas. In comparison to Kosovo, where NATO killed around 500 civilians who if anything were less integrated with combatants it seem Israel is either trying to avoid civilian casualties or is using far less ordinance.

Yes, but the NATO air campaign lasted for seven weeks; the war in Lebanon has only lasted for three weeks and the estimates have already soared way past the 500 mark.

[RyanRoberts]

The Serbs claimed 5,000 dead.. It is a difficult comparison to make though agreed, we don't know the number of sorties involved and can't really compare the the nature of the targets.

It was an attempt to put it in some sort of perspective, and the Kosovo operation is about the closest we have - it certainly isnt Dresden or north vietnam.

[FireGarden]

They certainly thought they had hidden rockets in Qana. You can even watch the truck drive into the building.

And what was in the truck? Can you see that?

"It's a truck --- Hezbollah!" blow it up. Just like the farm near the boarder. "It's a truck -- Hezbollah!" blow it up and the nearby buildings too.

"It's a mini-bus on the road -- Hezbollah!" Blow it up.
"It's an ambulance with a big red cross on the top -- Hezbollah!" blow it up.

The comment of the Israeli "justice" minister I gave before sums it up. Everything is Hezbollah to the IDF.

Then, when they're wrong, it's a mistake. Hey, we're all human. But Israel's mistakes are the result of near-random guessing.


How would you esablish the correct degree of certainty?

If I see a rocket, I assume it's a rocket. If I see a car travelling north -- I assume it is a civilian fleeing as per instructions.

[RyanRoberts]

If I see a rocket

So you would justify the drilling rig attack? That certainly looked like a rocket launcher.

And so do flat bed trucks creeping around towns that have recently launched rockets at the resolutions available to the IDF.

[zenith-nadir]

They should stop bombing sites after hezbollah has left them. What should happen is the Lebanese government sends the Lebanese army in to disarm and dismantle Hezbollah and save Lebanon from Hezbollah's self-imposed war.

What should have happened was that the Lebanese government should have frozen Hezbollah's assets way back in 2001 - after 9-11 - like they were asked to - (cite Nov. 8, 2001, 7:12PM (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/terror/front/1125530.html)).

What should have happened was that UNIFIL and the UN should have fulfilled their own frikkin' mandate which was:

"peace and security, and help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in the area".

(cite - United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/))
But the Lebanese government did freeze Hezbollah's assets did they? They protected them. UNIFIL and the UN didn't fulfill their own mandate did they? Infact the UN failed miserably to maintain peace and security, and failed 100% to help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in Southern Lebanon.

Well Israel is doing the dirty work for both parties - the hard way. You'all can say thanks once the dust settles and Hezbollah is no longer a threat to Lebanon.... or Israel.

p.s. Here's a blast from the past:

Monday, May 31, 1999 Published at 18:25 GMT 19:25 UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/357355.stm)

Civilian deaths 'necessary price'

Nato says civilian casualties in Yugoslavia are the price of defeating evil, after three separate attacks in which at least 32 people are reported to have died.

"There is always a cost to defeat an evil. It never comes free, unfortunately. But the cost of failure to defeat a great evil is far higher," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea.(emphasis all mine)

[FireGarden]

So you would justify the drilling rig attack?

I can see how someone might make a mistake. Do you justify hitting cars heading north? How about a clearly marked ambulance?

resolutions available to the IDF.

what is that resolution? I remember reading that convoys even had to give number plate details to the IDF.

[Leif Roar]

UNIFIL and the UN didn't fulfill their own mandate did they?

Unifil has done exactly what they're mandated to do. They're there as observers, not as enforcers, and their mandate is very limited because of that. Before you call for a more forceful Unifil, you should remember that a Unifil that could enforce a Hezbollah disarmament would have been a Unifil that could have enforced an Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon. Unifil's impotence is at least in part caused by the fact that Israel (and in support, the US) doesn't want a potent UN force in place to enforce the UN conventions upon all parties.

[RyanRoberts]

How about a clearly marked ambulance

That ambulance (if we are discussing the iconic hole in the middle of the cross photo) was not hit by a missile, at worst it was area effect damage, have a look at the high res version of that photograph - the hole in the middle is normally covered by a plastic cowling and most of the gashes are rusty as hell. Hits by hellfire missiles do not leave little scratches, they leave behind a charred lump of metal.

But yeah, deliberately hitting a clearly marked ambulance in the absence of intelligence indicating it was being misused would be criminal.

What is that resolution

Unsure, but the maximum TV magnification in the Apache Longbow is 127x. You are not going to be reading number plates from a couple of miles away with that.

[zenith-nadir]

Unifil has done exactly what they're mandated to do.Oh really?

They're there as observers, not as enforcers, and their mandate is very limited because of that.Oh really?

Before you call for a more forceful Unifil, you should remember that a Unifil that could enforce a Hezbollah disarmament would have been a Unifil that could have enforced an Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.Now you are reaching to cover for UNFIL.

Unifil's impotence is at least in part caused by the fact that Israel (and in support, the US) doesn't want a potent UN force in place to enforce the UN conventions upon all parties.So it's really Israel & the US's fault that UNFIL didn't fulfill their mandate...er...ahhhh...ok. ;)

Lemme help you out here Leif. From the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon website, first page:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/

"UNIFIL was created in 1978 to confirm Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, restore the international peace and security, and help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in the area."

Did UNFIL confirm Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon? Check.
Did UNFIL restore the international peace and security? Nope.
Did UNFIL help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in the area? Nope.

Let me refer to the Mandate page of UNFIL's website:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/mandate.html


According to Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978) of 19 March 1978, UNIFIL was established to:

* Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
* Restore international peace and security;
* Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area.

Did UNFIL confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon? Check.
Did UNFIL restore the international peace and security? Nope.
Did UNFIL assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area? Nope.
Is that Israel's fault? Nope.
Is that the US's fault? Nope.
Can UNFIL restore the international peace and security and help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in the area by simply "observing" Hezbollah? Certainly not.

Quite obviously UNFIL has utterly failed to achieve the Security Council's objectives, either before or after Israel's 2000 complete withdrawal from Lebanon. For years, UN observers have watched the build-up of Hezbollah’s armory and the construction of its fortified tunnels and its bunkers in the hills overlooking Israel and they have done nothing.

But here is some UNFIL history for ya Leif. On October 7, 2000, Hezbollah terrorists entered Israel, attacked three Israeli soldiers on Mount Dov, and abducted them into Lebanon. ( Here's the UN report (http://www.un.org/News/dh/latest/videorpt.htm) ). The kidnapping was witnessed by several dozen UNIFIL soldiers who stood idle. The soldiers names were Adi Avitan, Binyamin Avraham, and Omar Souad.

July 15, 2001 (http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0061.htm)

An Indian soldier who served in the UNIFIL brigade on the Israel-Lebanese border reportedly told interviewers in Israel that the soldiers in his brigade "could have prevented the kidnapping" of three Israeli soldiers last October...

Dozens in the UNIFIL brigade reportedly watched the kidnapping but did nothing. Moreover, at least four Indian soldiers reportedly had been bribed by the Hizbullah to offer active assistance in carrying out the abduction.

Restoring the international peace and security huh? But it gets better. It turns out there was a videotape of incidents after the kidnapping.... and the UN covered it up.... and for months the UN even denied said videotape - that UNFIL shot - even exsisted:

Wednesday, July 11, 2001, updated at 08:57(GMT+8) (http://english.people.com.cn/english/200107/11/eng20010711_74680.html)

Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben Eliezer on Tuesday blamed the United Nations for refusing to hand over to Israel a videotape filmed after the kidnapping of three Israeli soldiers by Lebanese resistance group Hezbollah last October.

This was the second time that Ben Eliezer expressed his dissatisfaction over the videotape issue with the U.N., which reiterated again on Monday its refusal to hand over to Israel the unedited videotape that the Jewish state believes may shed light on the kidnapping.(emphasis mine)

What?!?! The folks supposed to be "restoring the international peace and security" to Lebanon not only witnessed the hezbollah hostage taking, they did nothing about it and then even refused to hand over the videotape unedited to Israel....which they denied ever having in the first place:

July 12, 2001 (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2001/0712vide.htm)

The United Nations has opened an internal investigation into what it described as the "mishandling" of a videotape that may provide clues about the abduction of Israeli soldiers by Lebanese militants. After months of denying the existence of the footage, the UN last week offered to give Israel a censored copy - with faces blurred - in response to demands from the Israeli Government.

A spokesman for Secretary-General Kofi Annan said on Wednesday that the UN was "embarrassed and its credibility was hurt by what appears to be a mishandling of this event".

The UN is caught between a rock and a hard place over the video, with Israel demanding the unedited footage and Hezbollah saying that handing it over would effectively make the UN spies for Israel. (emphasis mine)

So as you can see Leif UNFIL actually has utterly failed to achieve the Security Council's objectives, either before or after Israel's 2000 complete withdrawal from Lebanon. And it ain't Israel or the USAs fault.

{edited to add}

The Har Dov Kidnapping (http://judaism.about.com/library/1_terrorism/bl_hardov_un.htm)

Hours after the abduction, two abandoned vehicles were found by the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). A white Nissan Pathfinder, with fake U.N. markings, had hit an embarkment. A black Range Rover, with its motor still running, had lost a tire rim.

It was believed that the cars were used in the abduction of the soldiers. They were full of blood and items that connected them to the incident. The Israeli soldiers may have been lured to the border fence by the bogus U.N. markings of the white car.

Indian UNIFIL troops secured the site overnight. On the morning of October 8, an Indian UNIFIL worker videotaped the vehicles while his co-workers removed contents and tried to tow one of the cars away. The end of the film shows armed Lebanese (allegedly Hizbullah) fighters intercepting the vehicles. The UN workers turned the cars over to the armed men because the cars were not U.N. property and they wanted to avoid a confrontation.

Thus, 18 hours after the kidnapping took place, United Nations workers possessed a videotape with information related to the kidnapping. Assuming that some of the soldiers may have died from wounds incurred during the ambush, knowledge of this videotape 18 hours after the incident might have been helpful to Israel in recovering the soldiers.

The Denial

For almost nine months, high ranking U.N. officials, including U.N. Middle East envoy Terje Larsen and U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, denied possessing any videotape related to the kidnapping.

Well it turns out that U.N. Middle East envoy Terje Larsen and U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan were lying!

[gumboot]

Just to add a brief prologue to ZN's comments...

UNIFIL are not a UNMO (Military Observer) force. UNMO operations are carried out by UNTSO (United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation) in SUPPORT of UNIFIL operations.

-Andrew

[Apollyon]

Houla death toll revised from 40 to...1.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14224221/

Also from this story:

U.N.: Hezbollah had fired rockets from nearby

U.N. peacekeepers at a post near Houla reported Hezbollah fired rockets toward Israel twice Monday from positions near the U.N. base.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

So they've heard soldiers were killed, but the headline and first paragraph make no reference to soldiers.

(Ireland online) -- Soldiers killed in rocket attack

From the more general search for Kfar Giladi: (Also the Eurnews link)

(Phillyburbs) -- Hezbollah Rockets Kill 10 in N. Israel

Washington Post -- Hezbollah Rockets Kill 10 in N. Israel (Their article says soldiers died, but not the headline or the first paragraph)

While I am sure you did not do this on purpose, you picked out articles that from American media and chastised them for not mentioning in the headline or first paragraph that Soldiers were killed, and then you post this:

Daily Mail (UK) -- Hezbollah rocket attack kills ten Israeli soldiers

Only that is not the headline of the article. Here is the headline: Bloodiest day for Israel as Haifa attacked by Hezbollah

Incidentally, several news sources reported the attack as 10 people rather than 10 Soldiers in the headline:

Khaleej Times (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/August/middleeast_August179.xml&section=middleeast)

Times of Oman (http://www.timesofoman.com/newsdetails.asp?newsid=33837)

NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5621397)

Hindustan Times (from Agence France Presse) (http://hindustantimes.com/news/181_1762062,00050004.htm)

Turkish Press (http://msxml.webcrawler.com/info.wbcrwl/clickit/search?r_aid=0B95912F71FD4CDC95F5BA77A6BB5FD0&r_eop=38&r_sacop=77&r_spf=0&r_cop=main-title&r_snpp=73&r_spp=4&qqn=ZyCMk-%2Cu&r_coid=239137&rawto=http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=136361)

You also cherrypicked U.S. Sources.

ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2279297), for example, reported in the first sentence that 10 Soldiers were killed.

Ditto for the New York Times. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/world/middleeast/06cnd-mideast.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=1b8ebdb744c11561&hp&ex=1154923200&partner=homepage&oref=slogin)

The Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003180427_reservists07.html) makes it very clear that the dead were Soldiers, since it is the point of just about the entire story.

And just for the heck of it, The Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525814086&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) also specifically mentions that the dead were Soldiers.

Also, you cited Phillyburbs. This story (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/93-08062006-694252.html) from the same site mentions that the dead were Soldiers, in the first paragraph. This article was posted at 4:27 pm. The one you cited was at 10:30 am. So it is quite possible that the information was simply updated in later stories.

[webfusion]

Here's a good one ----
http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2006/08/08/451234.html&cvqh=itn_israel

Somewhere in the article, buried in paragraph 7 ---
Witnesses said one of the destroyed houses belonged to Sheik Mustafa Khalifeh, a cleric linked to Hezbollah.

I would be willing to bet he was the target.
Anyone want to take that bet?

In Geneva, the U.N. Human Rights Council said it plans to convene a special session this week to consider taking action against Israel for its Lebanon offensive.


Good luck to that.
The IDF is acting defensively, not offensively.
Idiots.

[FireGarden]

Only that is not the headline of the article. Here is the headline: Bloodiest day for Israel as Haifa attacked by Hezbollah

Thanks for the correction and the extra research. A lot of papers do mention the soldiers, but some not as prominently as others.

Headlines are important, since a lot of people don't read complete articles.

[Beerina]

From the HRW report (thanks Leif Roar)



You see, nobody denies that Hezbollah has done wrong. They are saying that Israel is hitting targets after Hezbollah have left.

In war, one gets to destroy the areas the enemy used to be at, to prevent them from returning to something useful.


Hezbollah had gone by the time the IDF KOed the UNpost. They hadn't fired a rocket from Qana on the day of the strike.

That is the point.

When the UN post was hit, there was no genuine target in the area. And Hezbollah did not launch rockets from the roof of a UN post. So why hit the building? Because the IAF was too slow to hit Hezbollah.

Too slow! Damn, those Hezbollah guys are awesome! Good luck to them, eh?