Can you stop drinking?

[nosho]

Mel Gibson's case illustrates why the smartest choice is not to drink alcohol at all.

As a society, we have a drinking problem (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ac.pdf).

There's evidence that drinking alcohol is harmful to ourself and those around us (http://www.drugwarfacts.org/alcohol.htm).

Alcohol does something to your brain. People suffer tremendously as a direct consequence of drinking alcohol or being around people who drink alcohol. Every alcoholic starts with just one drink. Every drunken-driving death starts with just one drink.

Nobody sips that first drink thinking, "I'm going to ruin my life," or "I'm going to kill someone tonight." We all tend to think that just one drink is no big deal. But "just one drink" has a way of turning into another. And another.

OK, maybe you're strong enough and responsible enough to stop at just one drink. Maybe you've never, ever had too much to drink, or done something stupid or hurtful after drinking alcohol. You think you're a responsible drinker.

But the social reality in most cases is that when you drink, you encourage others to drink. When you drink, you teach your children to drink. When you drink, through your example you invite others to engage in an activity that, for some of them, will become harmful. Even deadly.

If you drink regularly in moderation, ask yourself, can you stop drinking for a month? If so, then do it, as an experiment. If you can't stop for a month, you have a problem. If you can stop for a month, why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month? And then another?

Prohibition isn't the answer. Individual choice is. There's no such think as drinking responsibly.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

There's no such think as drinking responsibly.



Evidence?

[Jimbo07]

I used to say, "there's no such thing as a responsible gun owner." Now, to be consistent, I have to let people be themselves and hope they choose. nosho's claim sounds similar.

I wonder nosho... did you have a drinking problem that you're recovering from? Why not give up soda pop for a year? I did. I still drink sodas now, if for no other reason than I like the taste...

[Johnny Pixels]

If you drink regularly in moderation, ask yourself, can you stop drinking for a month? If so, then do it, as an experiment. If you can't stop for a month, you have a problem. If you can stop for a month, why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month? And then another?

Prohibition isn't the answer. Individual choice is. There's no such think as drinking responsibly.



I stopped for 3 months once. I can go out without drinking, I can go out and drink. I can have fun when I don't drink, I can have fun when I do drink. I'll stop drinking half-way thorugh a night if you like. I'll stop drinking half-way through a pint if you like.

I think as a society, we have a problem with people who assume that everyone has the same troubles as them.

[ImaginalDisc]

As Michael Jackson's case illustrates why the smartest choice is not to dance at all.

As a society, we have a dancing problem.

There's evidence that dancing is harmful to ourself and those around us.

Alcohol does something to your brain. People suffer tremendously as a direct consequence of dancing or being around people who dance. Every alcoholic starts with just one drink. Every drunken-driving death starts with just one drink.

Nobody dances that first night thinking, "I'm going to ruin my life," or "I'm going to kill someone tonight." We all tend to think that just one drink is no big deal. But "just one dance" has a way of turning into another. And another.

OK, maybe you're strong enough and responsible enough to stop at just one dance. Maybe you've never, ever had danced too much, or done something stupid or hurtful after dancing. You think you're a responsible dancer.

But the social reality in most cases is that when you dance, you encourage others to dance. When you dance, you teach your children to dance. When you dance, through your example you invite others to engage in an activity that, for some of them, will become harmful. Even deadly.

If you dance regularly in moderation, ask yourself, can you stop dancing for a month? If so, then do it, as an experiment. If you can't stop for a month, you have a problem. If you can stop for a month, why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month? And then another?

Prohibition isn't the answer. Individual choice is. There's no such think as dancing responsibly.

[/soapbox]

[Cuddles]

I regularly give up drinking. When in university I drank almost every day, usually just a couple of social pints in the pub. When on holiday with a temp job I usually drank nothing for a couple of weeks because no-one was around to drink with. I know there are some people with problems, but I think most people are like me, they will drink socially as much as they like, but have no problem not drinking if there is no reason to.

[RyanRoberts]

I think Mel Gibson's case illustrates the danger of being an egotistical antisemitic man child rather than the inherent evils of alcohol.

You Yanks are so uptight about the booze its unbelievable. If you want to see an alcohol problem, try going out on a Friday night in a northern British town.

[nosho]

I realize almost nobody is going to agree with this position.

Even if you disagree, check out the links in the OP. They're interesting.

Cheers.

[ImaginalDisc]

I realize almost nobody is going to agree with this position.

Even if you disagree, check out the links in the OP. They're interesting.

Cheers.

Few people agree because your position is ridiculous. Any mind altering substance or recreational behavior is prone in way to some risks. Your criticism applies as much to playing american football as it does to drinking.

[nosho]

Few people agree because your position is ridiculous. Any mind altering substance or recreational behavior is prone in way to some risks. Your criticism applies as much to playing american football as it does to drinking.
That's what we as a society like to tell ourselves. But it's not true.

Your not going to find many studies linking American football with the incidence of domestic violence, rape, murder, criminal recidivism, etc.

Alcohol is addictive in a way that most recreational behavior is not. Its use is also much more widespread and socially acceptable than any other type of mind-altering substance.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

[varwoche]

Few people agree because your position is ridiculous. What's truly ridiculous is likening drinking to dancing.

[tkingdoll]

Some people can drink and it exaggerates their worst characteristics. They become aggressive, nasty, confrontational, paranoid, violent, uncaring, stupid, etc.

Some people can drink and it enhances their best characteristics. They become funny, charming, daring, flirty, cheeky, sharp, open, tolerant etc.

For me personally, the disadvantages of alcohol far outweigh the benefits, both to the individual and society, but I know plenty of people who drink responsibly and plenty of people who don't turn into Mel Gibsons.

As far as encouraging others to drink, that doesn't make any sense on the back of your 'individual choice' comment. Either it's about individual personal responsibility or it isn't. I don't disagree that some people are influenced by what their parents, friends or peers are doing, but the weight of responsibility still lies with them ultimately.

I am not going to change my lifestyle because other people might copy me and not handle the outcome as well. That's nuts. I don't drink and never have, and I can't say it's had much influence on people around me other than my husband.

Some people like to drink, some don't. Some people are jerks when drunk, some are great. Richard Feynman liked to say "you don't have to be responsible for the world around you". I broadly agree with that, on an individual level. If society has a drinking problem, that doesn't mean the individual has to stop drinking, even if you can prove that his moderate actions contribute to the extreme actions of other individuals.

[Johnny Pixels]

That's what we as a society like to tell ourselves. But it's not true.

Your not going to find many studies linking American football with the incidence of domestic violence, rape, murder, criminal recidivism, etc.

Alcohol is addictive in a way that most recreational behavior is not. Its use is also much more widespread and socially acceptable than any other type of mind-altering substance.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

I think you'll find those activities are linked with the person committing them being a twat. Drinking does not make an ordinary person into a violent person, a rapist, a murderer or a criminal

[nosho]

I regularly give up drinking. When in university I drank almost every day, usually just a couple of social pints in the pub. When on holiday with a temp job I usually drank nothing for a couple of weeks because no-one was around to drink with. I know there are some people with problems, but I think most people are like me, they will drink socially as much as they like, but have no problem not drinking if there is no reason to.
I'm sure you're right. Then there are those relatively fewer people unlike you for whom it will be a problem. They see you drink. They see it's not a problem for you. You set an example for them that they, for whatever reason, are unable to follow.

When we drink, the social reality is that it doesn't affect just us. It effects everyone around us, too.

[Johnny Pixels]

I'm sure you're right. Then there are those relatively fewer people unlike you for whom it will be a problem. They see you drink. They see it's not a problem for you. You set an example for them that they, for whatever reason, are unable to follow.

When we drink, the social reality is that it doesn't affect just us. It effects everyone around us, too.

So because people are sheep, I need to hand them a disclaimer telling them that their "experiences may vary"?

[nosho]

As far as encouraging others to drink, that doesn't make any sense on the back of your 'individual choice' comment. Either it's about individual personal responsibility or it isn't. I don't disagree that some people are influenced by what their parents, friends or peers are doing, but the weight of responsibility still lies with them ultimately.

I am not going to change my lifestyle because other people might copy me and not handle the outcome as well. That's nuts. I don't drink and never have, and I can't say it's had much influence on people around me other than my husband.
You are absolutely right that the weight of responsibility still lies with them ultimately.

Even so, we have to recognize that our own behavior will influence others. Particularly if we are parents. When we drink in front of our children, we are teaching them to drink.

[nosho]

Drinking does not make an ordinary person into a violent person, a rapist, a murderer or a criminal
You're right, of course. But drinking tends to lower inhibitions. Many times people do things after drinking that they ordinarily would not do.

[Johnny Pixels]

You're right, of course. But drinking tends to lower inhibitions. Many times people do things after drinking that they ordinarily would not do.

If those things cause a problem then they should drink in moderation or not at all. I'm not responsible for another person actions.

[nosho]

So because people are sheep, I need to hand them a disclaimer telling them that their "experiences may vary"?
No. But I think it's wise to be aware of how our own behavior has social consequences.

One problem is, a few people act like sheep.

[richardm]

why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month? And then another?

I like drink. And because I do it in moderation, it's apparently (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3217527.stm) quite (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3239641.stm) good (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5013828.stm) for (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1986514.stm) me. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/234957.stm) So stopping isn't doing me any favours. In this country at least we have hundreds of years of culture steeped in drink, so I doubt if my stopping drinking will encourage anyone else to stop. So it's a lose-lose situation.

Whose round is it anyway? I bought the last one.

[nosho]

And I doubt if my stopping drinking will encourage anyone else to stop.
You never know.

[Terry]

[...]

Even so, we have to recognize that our own behavior will influence others. Particularly if we are parents. When we drink in front of our children, we are teaching them to drink.

I think the european model of children being introduced to alcohol by their families in a controlled setting (glass of wine with dinner, a small glass of shandy on a hot afternoon) is more sensible than pretending alcohol doesn't exist until your children are 21. (It just seems more sensible to me - I don't have any evidence that it's better to hand...)

[richardm]

One problem is, a few people act like sheep.

Some people watch television then go out and imitate what they've seen, sometimes with dreadful (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1143978.stm) results. Would you advocate banning television as well?

[richardm]

You never know.

I get a benefit from drinking. Why should I forbid myself that on the offchance that I might deny somebody else the same benefit?

Seriously, if I'm sitting in a pub drinking Coke there is approximately zero chance that anyone else there will say "richardm certainly is enjoying that Coke. I renounce drink and all its works".

[Mid]

You never know.

You could make that argument about virtually anything, not driving (may encourage others not to and reduce car deaths), not eating chocolate (could encourage others not to and reduce the effects of diabetes), don't have sex (may reduce the spread of STDs) etc. What would we end up with? A unbelievably tedious world is my guess.

[nosho]

I think the european model of children being introduced to alcohol by their families in a controlled setting (glass of wine with dinner, a small glass of shandy on a hot afternoon) is more sensible than pretending alcohol doesn't exist until your children are 21. (It just seems more sensible to me - I don't have any evidence that it's better to hand...)
You're right. It's much better to set an example of moderate drinking than to allow kids to make poor choices out of ignorance.

In my opinion, an even more sensible approach is not to drink, and to explain to your children why you don't, and to let them make their own choice when they are old enough.

You can still do all those other things in a controlled setting, even if you personally do not drink.

[nosho]

Some people watch television then go out and imitate what they've seen, sometimes with dreadful (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1143978.stm) results. Would you advocate banning television as well?
No, I wouldn't advocate banning television.

I also would not advocate banning alcohol.

If someone chooses to stop watching television, however, I would applaud that decision.

[nosho]

You could make that argument about virtually anything, not driving (may encourage others not to and reduce car deaths), not eating chocolate (could encourage others not to and reduce the effects of diabetes), don't have sex (may reduce the spread of STDs) etc. What would we end up with? A unbelievably tedious world is my guess.
That's right. We have to make realistic choices. I think it's realistic to choose not to drink alcohol.

[richardm]

No, I wouldn't advocate banning television.

I also would not advocate banning alcohol.

If someone chooses to stop watching television, however, I would applaud that decision.
Okay - 'ban' was the wrong word.

Why would you applaud someone choosing to stop watching television? This child (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2562167.stm) would have died without television. Won't somebody think of the children? ;)

[NobbyNobbs]

[soapbox]

Every alcoholic starts with just one drink. Every drunken-driving death starts with just one drink.

But the social reality in most cases is that when you drink, you encourage others to drink. When you drink, you teach your children to drink. When you drink, through your example you invite others to engage in an activity that, for some of them, will become harmful. Even deadly.



Your words imply that everytime someone drinks, it's likely to turn deadly. Every night, hundred of thousands (millions?) of people go out (or stay in) and drink. And each night, 99.999% of those people finish the night safely.

When we drink, the social reality is that it doesn't affect just us. It effects everyone around us, too.

And when we walk out the door, the social reality is that it doesn't just affect us; it affects everyone around us too. Shall we all stay inside?

[Cleon]

There's no such think as drinking responsibly.

This assertion remains completely unsubstantiated.

[Mid]

That's right. We have to make realistic choices. I think it's realistic to choose not to drink alcohol.

Surely it depends on a case by case basis? If for instance you have an easily influenced friend who is an alcoholic I would agree that not dragging them to the pub to see you get drunk could be a good idea. However a glass of wine with your meal is a completely different situation and I really can't see the harm if you or I wished to have one. My point being that the context of the drinking is more important on any negative effects than drinking per seems and completely abstaining (for no other reason) seems extreme.

[Tirdun]

Mel Gibson's case illustrates why the smartest choice is not to drink alcohol at all.
Mel Gibson's case is an isolated incident in no way indicative of the general state of affairs.
As a society, we have a drinking problem
People have drinking problems, among other pressing issues. It is impossible for society to have a drinking problem as the term is defined, since society is not a single organism capable of drinking anything. In the way you're using it, society has a guns and ice cream problem, too.
There's evidence that drinking alcohol is harmful to ourself and those around us.
There's evidence that alcohol can have beneficial effects, neutral effects and negative effects. Just like guns and ice cream.
Alcohol does something to your brain.
Ice cream does something to your brain, it involves dopamine.
Guns do things to your brain (aside from the obvious physical effect of getting shot) in that people who train with guns increase focus awareness. There are also studies concerning gun use and testosterone.
People suffer tremendously as a direct consequence of drinking alcohol or being around people who drink alcohol.
SOME people suffer tremendously as a direct consequence of drinking / ice cream / guns or being around people who use alcohol / ice cream / guns.
Every alcoholic starts with just one drink. Every drunken-driving death starts with just one drink.
Every morbidly obese person starts with just one ice cream.
Every serial killer starts with buying just one gun.

See? Over generalization of an issue can be fun and educational. I do believe I haven't had a drink of anything in the last month. I'll pour myself a glass of scotch in your honor. Then I'll start a war over ice cream.

[Seismosaurus]

When I was a student, I drank like a fish. I was actually known for it. Those times were very depressing to me for one reason and another, and this was how I coped. I typically got through thirty pints of lager a week (real lager, not watered down weak stuff), plus a liter and a half of whiskey. Semi-permanent drunkenness (is that a word?) was my way of life. More than once I got drunk enough to black out, woke up the next day in a pool of my own vomit. Since I was lying on my back, I was lucky I hadn't choked to death in the night. That was a bit of a wake up call.

After I stopped being a student I cut way the hell back; eventually I cut back to the point where I drank precisely eight pints a week, four on Friday night, four on Saturday night. Did that for, oh, ten years or so.

At my very worst, I never did any harm to any other person because of my drinking. I'm a good drunk; I remain pretty much functional, enough to get myself home and put myself to bed. No aggression, no vandalism (I did go through a phase of collecting traffic cones), no abuse to anybody else. The very worst effect alcohol has on me is that in quantity it tends to make me rather depressed, which is my problem and nobody else's.

Last January I went on the Atkins diet, so no more lager for me and I can't really stomach spirits any more. So I went teetotal. I miss lager, I miss it a lot, and when I have breaks from the diet (which I do for one weekend, about every other month), I drink lager again. But going without is not hard, not in the least.

There are those who claim that when you say "I only drink a bit, I could go without if I wanted, I just don't want to" are fooling themselves. Well I AM that guy, and I DID give up when I wanted to, and it was really not a big deal.

[Dr Adequate]

* throws away the glass and starts drinking out of the bottle *

[bob_kark]

I'm working on it, I joined AAA.

Anyway, what exactly do you propose we do to keep these degenerates from drinking?

[Tony]

Absolutely. Alcohol has never really been my cup 'o tea anyway. In terms of the sensation you get from it, alcohol is one of the worst drugs. It really boggles my mind that people can get addicted to it.

[Deus Ex Machina]

I realize almost nobody is going to agree with this position.

Even if you disagree, check out the links in the OP. They're interesting.

Cheers.

Well the reason for the disagreement is that the statement you made is balderdash.

You know, I have a real problem. It's with smug gits who like to preach about things for everyone's "good". When I turned 18 I gained the right to decide, within the law, what I consider to be good. I decide what I like to do and what I don't and I make my trade offs. I like to ride motorcycles for example - I realize that this is riskier than driving a car and it is something I elect to do because it enhances my own life.

I like drinking beer on a Friday evening on the east deck of my house and watching the shades of night come down while having a talk and a laugh with friends.

I enjoy getting loud and raucous in a bar watching England play (except for when it goes to penalties) and if that alcohol consumption comes at a price, I'm willing to pay it.

So if you don't want to drink - don't. I wont come round to your house and pour beer down your neck if you will stay the **** away from my house and my beer and my friends.

[Deus Ex Machina]

I like drink. And because I do it in moderation, it's apparently (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3217527.stm) quite (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3239641.stm) good (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5013828.stm) for (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1986514.stm) me. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/234957.stm) So stopping isn't doing me any favours. In this country at least we have hundreds of years of culture steeped in drink, so I doubt if my stopping drinking will encourage anyone else to stop. So it's a lose-lose situation.

Whose round is it anyway? I bought the last one.

round of applause for a fellow bibarian!!

My shout..

[varwoche]

I realize almost nobody is going to agree with this position. I agree that alcohol is harmful to a great number of people. Clearly it is a significant public health issue.

And sheesh, from some of the responses one might think you advocated prohibition. :confused:

[marksman]

Worse, than prohibition, he's advocating abstinence from alcohol as a moral absolute.

Wine, in particular, can have health benefits (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1986514.stm).

Some people must probably abstain for their own good. For other people, alcohol in moderation is a positive benefit for themsevles and those around them.

The problem with the initial poster was that his message was both judgmental, absolutist and factually inaccurate.

[marksman]

I would also note that the two websites cited by the OP mention a correlation between criminal behavior and excessive alcohol consumption. They do not establish a causative effect (though such an effect would not surprise me).

As Cleon has mentioned, the OP has been unable to establish that it is impossible to drink responsibly.

[jimtron]

Can one drive responsibly? Automoblie fatalities are one of the leading causes of accidental death. Can you stop driving for a month? Maybe you have a problem. Do you have an unhealthy obsession with cup holders? Goofy ornaments hanging from the rearview mirror? Don't tell me you talk on your mobile phone in the car. Change stations while driving?

Maybe it's impossible to drive responsibly?

eta:

As a society, we have a driving problem.

[ponderingturtle]

Some people watch television then go out and imitate what they've seen, sometimes with dreadful (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1143978.stm) results. Would you advocate banning television as well?

I will say that people are clearly to stupid to drive autmobiles, and they should be banned from all civilized countries. Look at the accident rates, it is cars that kill more than alcohol

[geni]

[soapbox]

Mel Gibson's case illustrates why the smartest choice is not to drink alcohol at all.

Your case demonstriaghts that the smartest choice is not to post at all.


As a society, we have a drinking problem (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ac.pdf).


As an internet we have a problem with people useing PDF files.


There's evidence that drinking alcohol is harmful to ourself and those around us (http://www.drugwarfacts.org/alcohol.htm).


So is posting rubbish on messagge boards.


Alcohol does something to your brain.

Dito the internet:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19


People suffer tremendously as a direct consequence of drinking alcohol or being around people who drink alcohol.

No comment.


Every drunken-driving death starts with just one drink.


Largely delt with that one in the UK still stuck with the idiot driver problem.


Nobody sips that first drink thinking, "I'm going to ruin my life," or "I'm going to kill someone tonight." We all tend to think that just one drink is no big deal. But "just one drink" has a way of turning into another. And another.


Speak for yourself.


OK, maybe you're strong enough and responsible enough to stop at just one drink. Maybe you've never, ever had too much to drink, or done something stupid or hurtful after drinking alcohol. You think you're a responsible drinker.


I suspect you think you are a responsible poster.


But the social reality in most cases is that when you drink, you encourage others to drink. When you drink, you teach your children to drink.

Children happen to other people.


When you drink, through your example you invite others to engage in an activity that, for some of them, will become harmful. Even deadly.


Juding by events the same appears to be true for posting.


If you drink regularly in moderation, ask yourself, can you stop drinking for a month? If so, then do it, as an experiment.

So doing it just because isn't acceptable? You see i'm have problems with this N=1 idea and I don't want to pay for a control group


If you can't stop for a month, you have a problem. If you can stop for a month, why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month? And then another?

Again the posting thing springs to mind


Prohibition isn't the answer. Individual choice is. There's no such think as drinking responsibly.

You can't make me responciple for the actions of other people.

[ponderingturtle]

I'm working on it, I joined AAA.


Automotice Ascociation of America
Abdominal Arotic Aneurism

Or did you mean AA and not AAA, as the AAA I know have nothing to do with alcohol

[bob_kark]

Automotice Ascociation of America
Abdominal Arotic Aneurism

Or did you mean AA and not AAA, as the AAA I know have nothing to do with alcohol
American Automobile Association

They tow my car home when I go drinking.

Thought I may never get to deliver that one.

[steverino]

ME THINKS YOU PROTEST TOO MUCH.
Those of you responding to Nosho with angry tones, I suspect, have an alcohol problem. Although I am Jewish, I find Mel Gibson's drunk driving much more harmful than his hateful words. Sticks and stones...
America's anti-war mongers point to our 3000 soldiers who've died in Iraq. May I point out that, while this is terrible and tragic, 25,000 Americans die annually in drinking related auto accidents. There seems to be little outrage, protest, or reportage by CNN on this statistical fact.

[bob_kark]

ME THINKS YOU PROTEST TOO MUCH.
Those of you responding to Nosho with angry tones, I suspect, have an alcohol problem. Although I am Jewish, I find Mel Gibson's drunk driving much more harmful than his hateful words. Sticks and stones...
America's anti-war mongers point to our 3000 soldiers who've died in Iraq. May I point out that, while this is terrible and tragic, 25,000 Americans die annually in drinking related auto accidents. There seems to be little outrage, protest, or reportage by CNN on this statistical fact.
Well at least you provided plenty of evidence to back up your baseless accusation. Oh, wait, you didn't.

[KelvinG]

I love to go out every now and again and drink excessively.
However, I have no booze in my house. Unless it's a social thing, I will never, ever drink alcohol.
Yet, there is no doubt that often I drink with the intent of getting drunk.
I've also had times when I've quit drinking for months at a time and never even thought about having a boozy drink.

So, if someone were to see me blitzed at a bar on a Saturday night, they might say "he has a problem."
But, I'm quite positive I don't.

[Cleon]

ME THINKS YOU PROTEST TOO MUCH.
Those of you responding to Nosho with angry tones, I suspect, have an alcohol problem.

Methinks (one word) you are full of crap.

At least two people who've posted critical responses are complete tee-totallers--they don't touch alcohol at all.

Your logic is simply insipid. Neosho posts a ridiculous, unsupported assertion ("There's no such think as drinking responsibly") on a skeptics' board, and if we're overly critical of such silly logic we have an alcohol problem?

Next, I suppose you'll explain that the only people who support drug decriminalization are crack addicts.

[ponderingturtle]

ME THINKS YOU PROTEST TOO MUCH.
Those of you responding to Nosho with angry tones, I suspect, have an alcohol problem. Although I am Jewish, I find Mel Gibson's drunk driving much more harmful than his hateful words. Sticks and stones...
America's anti-war mongers point to our 3000 soldiers who've died in Iraq. May I point out that, while this is terrible and tragic, 25,000 Americans die annually in drinking related auto accidents. There seems to be little outrage, protest, or reportage by CNN on this statistical fact.

Ah so my not drinking is the problem, I really need to drink more so that he will not sound like a nut?

See NTSA Report (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/RNotes/2006/810598.pdf) it puts percentages of alcohol involvement in crashes the highest percentage there is 41% for 30-49 year old motorcycle riders. So cars are by themselves are more dangerous as the combination of alcohol and cars, in terms of accidents per year.

[roger]

And I'm kind of the opposite of Kevin. I keep tons of booze at the house. I drink alone all the time.

But it's one beer, which usually goes unfinished. Or an espresso cup's worth of port at the end of the night. Or one shot of bourbon as a nightcap.

It's responsible drinking. Thus, the opening post is incorrect.

[tkingdoll]

Worse, than prohibition, he's advocating abstinence from alcohol as a moral absolute.

Wine, in particular, can have health benefits (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1986514.stm).

Some people must probably abstain for their own good. For other people, alcohol in moderation is a positive benefit for themsevles and those around them.

The problem with the initial poster was that his message was both judgmental, absolutist and factually inaccurate.

Agreed, although I would add to your third paragraph that some of us abstain because we want to, not for our own good :)

[El Greco]

Wine, in particular, can have health benefits (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1986514.stm).

To be fair, it's the antioxidants in red wine that have the benefits. Alcohol doesn't have any benefits itself. I also think that most (if not all) the beneficial antioxidants in red wine have been identified and they are easily obtainable from other sources.

[Dark Jaguar]

I myself don't drink and have no intention of doing so. I basically just took the easy way out. I've actually heard someone say that this is "still not responsible because you are just ducking the problem entirely". So? That's the point! Why shouldI intentionally make my own life harder, so others can feel better about themselves? That's stupid.

At any rate, I'm not about to say people can't drink responsibly, they can, and it's their choice. At the same time, the second they cross the line and get themselves in trouble, they aren't getting any sympothy just because they were "under the influence" at the time. I'm sick of hearing that excuse.

As for driving safety, people have to drive (here for example the public transportation system is next to nonexistant), but I actually would say that at the point where human drivers can be replaced with a computer highway system with the ability to detect and avoid foreign objects on the road (like pedestrians), I'd be all for banning humans from driving and forcing everyone to use a computer system to get from point A to point B, as at that point having a human driver will just be a huge unnecessary danger.

[slingblade]

About 9 years ago, my husband and I stopped drinking, but it wasn't a totally conscious decision. I mean, we didn't look at one another and say "We need to stop."

It was a combination of not really being able to afford drink, and not really caring for it anymore. I guess the closest thing I can liken this to is Saturday morning cartoons. One day you realize you'd stopped watching them, but you don't remember deciding to do so or just when it happened. Maybe sometimes you turn them back on and try to watch them again, but they just aren't the same. They seem incredibly silly to you; a waste of time, or something you've simply gotten past.

We have a beer now and then, maybe once a year, and hubby went out with his friends two or three times to shoot pool and have a whiskey, but that's really about it.

So, yeah. I can and have stopped drinking, and didn't think too much about it.

[Cleon]

We have a beer now and then, maybe once a year, and hubby went out with his friends two or three times to shoot pool and have a whiskey, but that's really about it.

So, yeah. I can and have stopped drinking, and didn't think too much about it.

Clearly, you have an alcohol problem. Why else would you continue to drink?


(In case this isn't obvious - ;) )

[slingblade]

Ah, yes, I do. My problem is I don't drink. ;)

I do remember an old joke though: I don't have a drinking problem. I drink, I get drunk, I fall down, no problem!

[Katana]

I tried to stop drinking once, but I couldn't give up the olives.

http://friendsinthehills.com/sitebuilder/images/Martini1-100x135.png

Yum!

[bob_kark]

I tried to stop drinking once, but I couldn't give up the olives.

http://friendsinthehills.com/sitebuilder/images/Martini1-100x135.png

Yum!
I LOVE olives. I think I need a martini now.

[Katana]

I LOVE olives. I think I need a martini now.

Gin or vodka?

[coalesce]

I've never drank and never felt the need to "fit in" by drinking, primarily because my close circle of friends in high school and college were also tee-totallers. What I always found surprising, and a bit annoying, depending on the person, was the reaction by casual acquiantances when I declined to join them in having a drink. You'd think by some of their reactions that I advocated stomping on babies. I mean, I didn't go into personal details about my father dying a recovering alcoholic and that I didn't want to end up like him. I just said no thanks, I don't like the taste. That's why I personally hate alcohol advertising, especially beer, because TV commercials all-too-often make their product seem like the only thing needed to make you popular. But then again, that's the point of almost all advertising, isn't it? If it's not beer, it's cars or shoes or iPods or whatever other bright, shiny thing is used to distract us from what's really going on.

Michael

[bob_kark]

Gin or vodka?
Vodka, definately.

[Katana]

Vodka, definately.

Oops. That's where we diverge. Vodka martinis are good, but gin...mmm!:)

[bob_kark]

Oops. That's where we diverge. Vodka martinis are good, but gin...mmm!:)
I don't mind it with Bombay Sapphire, but I prefer mine with Grey Goose.

[Jorghnassen]

This thread is making me thirsty.

[coalesce]

This thread is making me thirsty.

These pretzels are making me thirsty!

Michael

[marksman]

To be fair, it's the antioxidants in red wine that have the benefits. Alcohol doesn't have any benefits itself. I also think that most (if not all) the beneficial antioxidants in red wine have been identified and they are easily obtainable from other sources.

Sure, and we can all eat tofu to survive. There's a benefit to having healthy nutrients found in things that people might actually want to consume. Wine is a healthy and appealing way to obtain antioxidants.

To say that anybody who drinks has a problem, is irresponsible and is making less than smart choices (which is what the OP post indicates) is absurd and unsupported.

[DanishDynamite]

Even so, we have to recognize that our own behavior will influence others. Particularly if we are parents. When we drink in front of our children, we are teaching them to drink.
And what might be the problem with that?

I mean, people have been drinking alcohol since before the ancient Egyptians, and yet we are still here.

[DanishDynamite]

You're right, of course. But drinking tends to lower inhibitions. Many times people do things after drinking that they ordinarily would not do.
Which is the whole point. That's why people drink at parties. To break the ice. To become more outgoing than they usually would.

I think it is fair to say that people are generally mistrustful of strangers. This instinct is deep and probably has a good reason for existing. But sometimes, you need to get past this inhibition, because it is for the better (for you).

[tkingdoll]

If my husband hadn't been drunk the night we met, I doubt we'd have gotten together. So, balls to the OP.

[slingblade]

I met both of mine in bars. The first time, it was very bad. The second time, it was very good.

:alc:

[Joe Random]

So here I am reading this thread over a glass of a simple Pinot Noir, and remembering how things were a few years ago. While going through the divorce (just shy of a 10 year marriage) I drank A LOT. A few liters of vodka each week – a lot by just about anyone’s definition. But even in the midst of all the chaos, legal battles, bouts of self-pity, etc. I would decide at random to stop drinking for a non-specific period, just to prove to myself that I could.

So I would go from a near constant drunken haze each night for weeks at a stretch, to zero alcohol for anywhere from 2 to 10 days. Then once I felt I’d made my point to myself I was back at it as heavily as before. Rinse and repeat for about two years.

Once all that passed and I squared my life away I fell back into mainly having a glass of wine or two with dinner, and sometimes not even that – all depending on what sounded good at the time.

Number of nights spent excessively drunk : a few hundred
Number of jobs lost due to drink : zero
Number of accidents or tickets due to drink : zero
Number of times driven while drunk : zero
Number of ‘interventions’ subjected to : zero

As far as the whole “why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month?” challenge, I’ll simply ask : how is stopping something which does harm to no one doing anyone a favor? The implication in the OP is that any alcohol intake at all has a demonstrably negative effect, which (as many have already pointed out) has yet to be substantiated. Frankly I find it insulting that someone would presume to project their apparent personal weakness (to say nothing of an almost Carry Nation-esque morality) on to society as a whole.

As far as my behavior serving to influence others, how far do we take that? Should I not have those French fries with my burger, in case it tempts the obese person at the table next to me into that much more of a fat intake? Should I not ride my mountain bike for hours at a time, as someone in poorer physical shape might be driven to push themselves too far? Should I renounce my fondness for raven haired women in leather and wielding a riding crop, to make sure someone whose back doesn’t heal as quickly from scars as mine doesn’t end up with … well, you get the point.

And even though I’ve finished the glass I had when I first started writing this, I’m still able to get down off my soapbox without fear of falling.

Cheers.

[UndercoverElephant]

?

Prohibition isn't the answer. Individual choice is. There's no such think as drinking responsibly.

[/soapbox]

How about I define "drinking responsibly" as "not causing any harm to anyone other than myself"?

[steverino]

Sorry to be so full of crap. You folks are pretty amped up tonight...

[steverino]

Methinks (one word) you are full of crap.

At least two people who've posted critical responses are complete tee-totallers--they don't touch alcohol at all..


Since you corrected my (old) English, let me point out that "Tea-totaller" is NOT spelled "tee-totaller," unless you choose golf over booze!
:D :D :D

[Elind]

There's no such think as drinking responsibly.


Shouldn't that be drinking and driving responsibly? Is your problem beating up on your spouse or whatever? I dare say the problem there is not the drink, that would be just the excuse.

[coalesce]

Since you corrected my (old) English, let me point out that "Tea-totaller" is NOT spelled "tee-totaller," unless you choose golf over booze!
:D :D :D

Hmmm...golf and alcohol. Two things I'm not interested in. But thanks for the correct spelling. I'll keep it in mind for later use.

Michael

[tkingdoll]

Since you corrected my (old) English, let me point out that "Tea-totaller" is NOT spelled "tee-totaller," unless you choose golf over booze!
:D :D :D

Oh my goodness me you could not be more wrong!

Sorry to show you up, but the correct spelling most certainly is "tee-totaller", and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the drink tea.

If you want the origin, Wiki has a good explanation here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tee-totaller

[ImaginalDisc]

Since you corrected my (old) English, let me point out that "Tea-totaller" is NOT spelled "tee-totaller," unless you choose golf over booze!
:D :D :D
Teatotaler is not a word! If you're going to be pedantic open a dictionary first. It's spelled "teetotaler," for beer's sake.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I don't mind it with Bombay Sapphire, but I prefer mine with Grey Goose.

Grey Goose, or Chopin are both lovely. Neat, straight-up, and perfect please.

[Pauliesonne]

I can stop drinking easily but once in a while I like to get completely pissed.

[Pauliesonne]

I love to go out every now and again and drink excessively.
However, I have no booze in my house. Unless it's a social thing, I will never, ever drink alcohol.
Yet, there is no doubt that often I drink with the intent of getting drunk.
I've also had times when I've quit drinking for months at a time and never even thought about having a boozy drink.

So, if someone were to see me blitzed at a bar on a Saturday night, they might say "he has a problem."
But, I'm quite positive I don't.

I know excactly how you feel.

[tkingdoll]

Teatotaler is not a word! If you're going to be pedantic open a dictionary first. It's spelled "teetotaler," for beer's sake.

Beat you to it :p

[nosho]

By making the statement, "There is no such thing as drinking responsibly," it seems I have insulted a few people who feel that when they drink, they do so responsibly. To those of you who feel insulted, my apologies. Obviously, it's your life, and nobody can tell you how to live it.

Almost everyone I love drinks alcohol sometimes. There are no alcoholics in my immediate family, although I have known alcoholics, and it's serious business.

When I drank, I always considered myself to be a responsible drinker. Never hurt anyone while drunk. No DUIs. Never lost a job, never missed work. Generally, my drinking would be maybe two glasses of wine or beer a few days every week, and maybe one or two weekends a month when I would have maybe eight drinks or so during the course of an evening and night. On vacation I'd have much more. If someone had told me then that I was not drinking responsibly, I might have been insulted, just as a few of you seem to be.

The more I thought about it, though, the less I could justify drinking.

I can see the damage that drinking alcohol does to some people. I have a friend whose father froze to death in winter after drinking and passing out outside. I've seen fistfights break out between friends who were drinking, friends who probably wouldn't be fighting if they hadn't been drinking.

What does that have to do with having just one glass of wine during dinner? Well, in this culture, I do not have one glass of wine during dinner in a social vacuum. When I have that glass of wine, I become a willing participant in the cultural acceptance of alcohol.

When I have that glass of wine, I'm one more face in the crowd of people who, through their actions, communicate that drinking alcohol is no problem. Only we all know that as long as people drink alcohol, there is going to be a problem. A serious problem, documented in studies.

How can I be 100 percent sure that sometime in the future, if I continue to drink, it won't become a problem for me? There are countless people out there who always thought of themselves as responsible drinkers, until they woke up one morning and realized they had become alcoholics or drunk drivers. Am I somehow immune? Maybe I am. I think I am. But I don't know what the future holds.

I came to the conclusion that when I drink even just a glass of wine with a meal:

1) I gamble with my future. I plant seeds that could grow into alcoholism. Why plant those seeds at all?

2) I participate in a culture of drinking in our society that I can see is harmful. Some of us show disdain for those who don't drink. Many of us pressure each other to drink. We laugh about drinking. We treat it like one big joke. Alcohol is a huge, huge part of our culture. That's probably why so many people have taken my OP so personally.

3) I become an example to the children and teenagers in my life who might look to me as a role model. They see that I drink. They see that drinking is socially acceptable. I hope none of them ever becomes an alcoholic or drunk driver, but if they do, I'll wish I had never had a drink in front of them.

4) I support the alcohol industry economically.

On the other hand, if I choose not to drink, I create in my own small way the momentum of social change. If more people did the same thing, we could slowly change the culture of drinking in our society that clearly and obviously results in tremendous harm. But if I choose to drink, then nothing in society changes. I'm not making a difference; I'm just going along with the flow. I could justify that decision by claiming I'm not really harming anyone. In doing so, I would deny the very notion that society can change one person at a time. I would reject the idea that change must start with me.

When I see ugliness, I do not want to participate in it. In my personal opinion, given what I can see in society, I believe there is an element of irresponsibility in the decision to drink any alcohol. It's a matter of opinion based on what I've observed in life. Of course you can be skeptical about my opinion and have a different opinion.

I believe that a person who can't stop drinking for a month has a problem. But I don't believe everyone who drinks has a problem. I recognize that lots of people who drink do not have a problem.

I don't preach to my friends or family about drinking. I just quietly don't drink any more, and if they ask me about it, I say: "I'm just not drinking today." If they want to know more, I'll tell them.

I knew the OP was preachy when I wrote it. If getting up on the soapbox is inappropriate in this forum, then I apologize. But I figured this would be a good place for a discussion like this.

[senorpogo]

“I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.”

-Frank

[senorpogo]

I believe that a person who can't stop drinking for a month has a problem. But I don't believe everyone who drinks has a problem. I recognize that lots of people who drink do not have a problem.

What's so magically about the 30 days compared to 45 days or 365 days or three days?

[Seismosaurus]

nosho, it seems to me that your basic argument is "X is not always a problem, but some people abuse X and make it a problem, so I don't partake in X even though I am not one of those people."

This is simply nonsensical. Most anything can become a problem for individual people - gambling, watching TV, porn, spending time on the internet.

In fact take that last one. I'm sure that for some people, the internet becomes addictive. It consumes their lives, destroys their relationships, their job can suffer, whatever. Some people are stalked through the internet - I've seen that happen personally, and the guy ended up in the news and in jail in part because of it. And of course, it's an excellent recruiting ground for paedophiles and such.

Now for the vast majority of internet users, none of these things is a problem. But every time you use the net you may be planting a seed that will grow into addiction. Every time you use it you are contributing to a culture of internet use. You become a role model to those who would see you on the internet - look, I am spending more time on the internet than I otherwise would, because I'm taking time out to respond to you! And of course every time you use it you are supporting the internet industry economically.

So, will you stop using the internet? I bet you won't, and when you understand why you will understand why your reasons for not drinking also don't make sense.

[Cleon]

By making the statement, "There is no such thing as drinking responsibly," it seems I have insulted a few people who feel that when they drink, they do so responsibly.

Insulted? No. But if you say something that mind-bogglingly silly on this board with a single thing to back it up, you can expect to be called on it.


I can see the damage that drinking alcohol does to some people.


I can see the damage that riding motorcycles does to some people. I'm still not giving up my Beemer, though. And to say "there's no such thing as riding responsibly" because I have seen said damage would be no less ridiculous than your pronouncement.


What does that have to do with having just one glass of wine during dinner? Well, in this culture, I do not have one glass of wine during dinner in a social vacuum. When I have that glass of wine, I become a willing participant in the cultural acceptance of alcohol.

When I have that glass of wine, I'm one more face in the crowd of people who, through their actions, communicate that drinking alcohol is no problem.


It's not a problem in itself.


Only we all know that as long as people drink alcohol, there is going to be a problem. A serious problem, documented in studies.


No, we don't know that. You have completely failed to provide evidence for it.


How can I be 100 percent sure that sometime in the future, if I continue to drink, it won't become a problem for me?

What a stupid line of logic.

How can I be 100% sure that sometime in the future, if I continue to ride my motorcycle, it won't eventually kill me?
How can I be 100% sure that sometime in the future, if I continue to drive my car to work, I won't eventually get a ticket?
How can I be 100% sure that sometime in the future, if I continue to eat bacon cheeseburgers, I won't have a heart attack?

You want a zero-risk life? Move to a cave in the middle of nowhere.


There are countless people out there who always thought of themselves as responsible drinkers, until they woke up one morning and realized they had become alcoholics or drunk drivers.

They didn't "wake up one morning and realize they had become alcoholics or drunk drivers." Alcoholism is a preventable disease. Being a drunk driver is an easily preventable behavior.


2) I participate in a culture of drinking in our society that I can see is harmful.

What arrogant claptrap. "Culture of drinking." Please.


3) I become an example to the children and teenagers in my life who might look to me as a role model.

Speaking of arrogance...


4) I support the alcohol industry economically.


As we all know, the alcohol industry is just absolutely horrible! I mean, they start civil wars to control access over their precious alcohol, they support tyranical regimes in the Middle East...

Oh, wait. No, they just pay for silly Super Bowl ads.


I don't preach to my friends or family about drinking.

Instead, you preach to everyone else. Gee, thanks.


I knew the OP was preachy when I wrote it. If getting up on the soapbox is inappropriate in this forum, then I apologize. But I figured this would be a good place for a discussion like this.

No, soapboxes are par for the course. Throwing around unsupported, ridiculous claims like "there is no such thing as responsible drinking"--that is where you run into trouble.

[Elizabeth I]

You want a zero-risk life? Move to a cave in the middle of nowhere.

Wait - you forget the possibility of being bitten by a rabid bat or killed if the roof caves in.:D

ETA: or dying of hanta virus from rodent feces or falling off an underground cliff in the dark or knocking yourself cold on a stalactite...

[richardm]

Tea-totaller" is NOT spelled "tee-totaller,"

Actually, no - it is "tee-total", or "teetotal" if you prefer. It was apparently coined in the mid 19th Century in a speech by a chap who wanted to emphasise what a good idea totality was in avoiding drink. "Total with a Capital T" might be a modern equivalent.

[richardm]

Beat you to it :p

Whoa. Maybe if I drank less, I could type faster.

[Polaris]

I think Mel Gibson's case illustrates the danger of being an egotistical antisemitic man child rather than the inherent evils of alcohol.

You Yanks are so uptight about the booze its unbelievable. If you want to see an alcohol problem, try going out on a Friday night in a northern British town.

I'm a Yank and I agree with you. I don't have a drinking problem. I love to drink.

[slingblade]

Actually, no - it is "tee-total", or "teetotal" if you prefer. It was apparently coined in the mid 19th Century in a speech by a chap who wanted to emphasise what a good idea totality was in avoiding drink. "Total with a Capital T" might be a modern equivalent.

Actually, no; tee-total is an adjective. Tee-totally is an adverb, and tee-totaller is the noun. Words often go through drift. Google is a noun that has been verbed. Tee-total is an adjective that has been nouned. In fact, verb and noun are nouns that have been verbed.

Isn't English fun!? :p

[tkingdoll]

Tea-total wouldn't make any sense for me anyway: not only do I not drink alcohol, I don't drink tea either.

I do have a ten tee a day habit though.

[Polaris]

Actually, no; tee-total is an adjective. Tee-totally is an adverb, and tee-totaller is the noun. Words often go through drift. Google is a noun that has been verbed. Tee-total is an adjective that has been nouned. In fact, verb and noun are nouns that have been verbed.

Isn't English fun!? :p

That sounds like a great new extreme-marketing campaign for the folks at Lipton.

"Tea. TOTALLY!"

[steverino]

Teatotaler is not a word! If you're going to be pedantic open a dictionary first. It's spelled "teetotaler," for beer's sake.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bgoodsel/post911/2003/01/random-thought-from-teatotaler-i.htm

Eye oh yew an appoligy. Eye googlled "tea-totaler" and seams others misspelled it before eye, or thay did it four a gimmic. Sorrie.

I need a drink!:boggled:

[PopeTom]

Wait - you forget the possibility of being bitten by a rabid bat or killed if the roof caves in.:D

ETA: or dying of hanta virus from rodent feces or falling off an underground cliff in the dark or knocking yourself cold on a stalactite...

Or be eaten by a grue.

[Darth Rotor]

That's right. We have to make realistic choices. I think it's realistic to choose not to drink alcohol.
And I think it is a realistic choice to drink as much as you can handle, or as little as you can handle. Learn, adapt, and find your zone.

I find it foolish to play chicken little over someone else's choice of drinking on an internet board. If someone you know has a massive drinking problem, deal with that situation in real life, don't piss and moan on an internet forum.

DR

[Pauliesonne]

And I think it is a realistic choice to drink as much as you can handle, or as little as you can handle. Learn, adapt, and find your zone.



Didn't South Park do an episode where Stan told his dad Randy something along those lines.

[richardm]

Actually, no; tee-total is an adjective. Tee-totally is an adverb, and tee-totaller is the noun. Words often go through drift. Google is a noun that has been verbed. Tee-total is an adjective that has been nouned. In fact, verb and noun are nouns that have been verbed.

Isn't English fun!? :p
You say "Actually, no", but I think you mean "Actually, yes" - it's only the derivation of the word that I'm driving at ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tee-totaller
Their first suggestion - that a stammerer referered to "Tee-tee-total" is deeply suspicious. Any stammerer would surely render it "Tur-tur-total"?

[ImaginalDisc]

What's so magically about the 30 days compared to 45 days or 365 days or three days?
Well, there is a really good Chuck Berry song titled, "30 Days." That counts for something.

[alfaniner]

...
I believe that a person who can't stop drinking for a month has a problem. But I don't believe everyone who drinks has a problem. I recognize that lots of people who drink do not have a problem.
...

You can stop drinking for a month (or three, or more) and still have a problem.

[ponderingturtle]

And what might be the problem with that?

I mean, people have been drinking alcohol since before the ancient Egyptians, and yet we are still here.

Well that can bring up the issue of if it was bread or beer that caused people to start agriculture. Of course with the Egyptains the difference between the two was not all that great

[ponderingturtle]

By making the statement, "There is no such thing as drinking responsibly," it seems I have insulted a few people who feel that when they drink, they do so responsibly. To those of you who feel insulted, my apologies. Obviously, it's your life, and nobody can tell you how to live it.


That compleatly removes any need for the self help or advice industries. It seems to me that people can and do tell people how to live their lives all the time.

[senorpogo]

The Oxford English Dictionary (THE dictionary) lists "teetotal". No "teatotal". As a matter of fact, under the "teetotal" alternate spellings there is "Also erron. tea-" which means erroneous. Which means wrong.

[slingblade]

Alow me to try again:

Actually, no - it is "tee-total", or "teetotal" if you prefer.

Actually, teetotal is used with affixes, as well, and so teetotal is just the root. The words teetotaller and teetotally are also legitimate words, functioning as other parts of speech. Your phrasing gave the impression that there is no other word aside from "tee-total," but we can see this is not the case.

There; was that better? ;)

[Ralph]

You can stop drinking for a month (or three, or more) and still have a problem.


Absolutely....One of the common myths about alcoholism is that if you can go for a period of time without drinking everything's fine. Many alcoholics tend to have "bender" drinking habits which alternate between periods of extremely heavy drinking and days or weeks of abstinence.

A better indicator than abstinence would be to drink every day for say 60 days or so. The catch is - you can drink---but never more than 2 drinks per day. Personally--I never wanted "2 or 3" drinks in my life. I always wanted more. I would have a drink with responsible (non-alcholic) drinkers who who have one or two---& then stop. For the life of me--I couldn't understand why they were stopping after only having a couple.

The other big misconception I see here is that people assume if you're socially responsible (not peeing your pants,beating the crap out of your wife & kids--getting arrested) there's no problem.

Alcoholism is progressive--there are early-mid- and late stages. Most people are fairly functional through the early stages. The nasty stuff tends to occur in the later stages although many alcoholics get well into old age keeping their jobs, not getting arrested, and never beating up the kids.

Don't kid yourself into thinking you're OK though just because you've never been arrested for a DUI and got a a raise at work.

[senorpogo]

Alcoholism is progressive--there are early-mid- and late stages. Most people are fairly functional through the early stages. The nasty stuff tends to occur in the later stages although many alcoholics get well into old age keeping their jobs, not getting arrested, and never beating up the kids.

Don't kid yourself into thinking you're OK though just because you've never been arrested for a DUI and got a a raise at work.

Then what are the signs of alcoholism? How would you know that you're in the early stages and not just a well-adjusted guy who can handle his drink?

[Ralph]

Then what are the signs of alcoholism? How would you know that you're in the early stages and not just a well-adjusted guy who can handle his drink?

I'm not really qualified to diagnosis alcoholism............there are various things (referred to as signposts) that might indicate an indivual may be drifting into alcoholism.

Things like drinking alone or keeping it a secret...making excuses to drink......
memory blackouts (alcoholic blackouts do NOT involve loss of consciousness)....morning drinking.

Certainly any kind of problems--work-related--legal issues--due to one's excessive drinking are cause for concern.

It's said that if one thinks they have a problem, they probably do.

[Almo]

Alcohol is addictive in a way that most recreational behavior is not. Its use is also much more widespread and socially acceptable than any other type of mind-altering substance.

Excellent points. I drink a bit. Like one screwdriver at night, maybe twice a week. Sometimes I go for a month or more with nothing. I've drunk to true excess no more than 5 times (been many years since the last time), so I don't think I have a problem with it. Maybe if everyone chose of their own accord to not drink, a lot of problems would go away. But many people aren't capable of letting other people make those choices, especially not their kids. My experience in Texas was that kids taught NEVER to drink EVER were the ones that had the big drinking problems in college. I was taught very early to drink responsibly; mom let me have wine on rare occasions from the time I was about 10.

An important point people miss is the ratio of (H) how much of a drug you need to get an effect, and (O) how much it takes to overdose. Alcohol has a very low ratio compared to say, pot. Looked at this way, alcohol is WAY more dangerous than pot. But which of these drugs do people get all upset about? :confused:

When it comes to drugs in general, Americans are just silly. Alcohol is fine, and pot isn't even though alcohol is easier to overdose on. Many drugs are controlled and require a prescription, which shows we don't trust people to chose their drugs; that makes sense. But then we allow drug companies to advertize these same drugs to the people whom we have already disqulified from choosing them.

:boxedin:

[Katana]

I don't mind it with Bombay Sapphire, but I prefer mine with Grey Goose.

Bombay Sapphire is the best! Good call.

Grey Goose is definitely the best vodka. Another fine choice.

[Darth Rotor]

Didn't South Park do an episode where Stan told his dad Randy something along those lines.
I have no idea, since I don't watch that garbage.

DR

[Pauliesonne]

I was thinking about starting another thread but anyway, here's a link;

http://testyourself.netdoctor.co.uk/interactivetests/alcoholdrinking.php?n=collection&p=English%20addicted%20to%20alcohol%20lifestyle_po rtal&c=lifestyle_portal

I got - " You have no apparent problems with alcohol. "

[Pauliesonne]

I have no idea, since I don't watch that garbage.

DR

Mom?

[steverino]

Then what are the signs of alcoholism? How would you know that you're in the early stages and not just a well-adjusted guy who can handle his drink?

I was once engaged to an alcoholic. The two biggest signs of an alcoholic are:

1) Blacking out after getting drunk. You do not pass out, but rather take on a persona quite different than your sober persona. You can drive, make love, entertain at a party, but in the morning you recall nothing.

2) If you were ever in AA or other rehab services in your past, even for short times.

Below is a link to the book about Terry McGovern, George's daughter. It is shocking and informative, and taught me a lot about addiction. FYI-It's not a political read at all.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452278236/002-0907148-4407221?v=glance&n=283155

[slingblade]

Then what are the signs of alcoholism? How would you know that you're in the early stages and not just a well-adjusted guy who can handle his drink?

Well, you could look that up and make sure you're getting the right info, but I will tell you what I was told for years in Al-Anon, the support group for families of alcoholics:

"If your drinking is causing problems in your life, then you have a drinking problem. If you cannot choose to abstain from alcohol in spite of the problems it causes, then you are an alcoholic."

This doesn't just mean if your drinking is causing problems for you, specifically. If your spouse has asked you not to drink, or drink so much, and you ignore him or her, that's a problem. Whether you own responsibility for it or not doesn't make it any less so. If having that next drink is more important to you than the happiness of your spouse, you both have a problem.

I married an alcoholic, mostly because I mistakenly thought alcoholics were only winos in the gutter. I didn't know any better. I paid.

[Ceritus]

Mel Gibson's case illustrates why the smartest choice is not to drink alcohol at all.

As a society, we have a drinking problem (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ac.pdf).

There's evidence that drinking alcohol is harmful to ourself and those around us (http://www.drugwarfacts.org/alcohol.htm).

Alcohol does something to your brain. People suffer tremendously as a direct consequence of drinking alcohol or being around people who drink alcohol. Every alcoholic starts with just one drink. Every drunken-driving death starts with just one drink.

Nobody sips that first drink thinking, "I'm going to ruin my life," or "I'm going to kill someone tonight." We all tend to think that just one drink is no big deal. But "just one drink" has a way of turning into another. And another.

OK, maybe you're strong enough and responsible enough to stop at just one drink. Maybe you've never, ever had too much to drink, or done something stupid or hurtful after drinking alcohol. You think you're a responsible drinker.

But the social reality in most cases is that when you drink, you encourage others to drink. When you drink, you teach your children to drink. When you drink, through your example you invite others to engage in an activity that, for some of them, will become harmful. Even deadly.

If you drink regularly in moderation, ask yourself, can you stop drinking for a month? If so, then do it, as an experiment. If you can't stop for a month, you have a problem. If you can stop for a month, why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month? And then another?

Prohibition isn't the answer. Individual choice is. There's no such think as drinking responsibly.



Sounds like you need a drink.

C'mon now, whatever alcohol did to you or a loved one I hope you can cope with it in a responsible manner.

In our society drinking alcohol is entertainment. It is a fun and safe way to relieve stress as well as being very affordable.

Why even suggest it is wrong to entertain one's self and encourage others to entertain themselves?

What would be next? Please stop having unmarried sex to reduce the amount of STD's being spread throughout the world? Try going without fornicating for a month then try going for another then another? Because when you fornicate you are influencing those around you to fornicate and it brings down our society as a whole? I know reproducing is a bodily function but so is relieving stress is it not?

I don't know if this is your story but, I knew a man who lost his wife and three children because of a drunk driver. He got up on a soapbox and started spitting off why alcohol is wrong and how its irresponsible to drink altogether. I asked him why he didn't have anything against cars? He got angry at first obviously but he started to think about it and we get along again now.

People will do stupid things, they will drink to much, eat to much, drive to fast, steal to much, shoot to much, buy to much, work to much, laugh to much, cry to much, and blame to much.

Why try to instill people around you with guilt about their choices? Why create a false sense of wrong doing if perhaps they cannot go a month without drinking a week or even a day? If a person can afford drinking every hour of every day finish their work without a problem and have numerous privately owned livers at their disposal to replace the ones they destroy would it be a problem if they enjoy what they are doing? Especially if he is not hurting anyone around him? Say his wife drank just as much as him and is very happy and fullfilled that they can drink together so much.

I haven't had a drink it about 3 months myself because I just haven't gotten around to it. But I assure you when I get off work this morning I am going to the store and buying a nice delicious six pack of Guiness to knock back while I watch the morning news.

Sure if everyone stopped drinking, in a couple of generations we would have a much more attracive society, but then there would be more wierd old men fantasizing about the highschool girls he see's when he picks up his son at school. We could have an epidemic of pedophiles!!!!!! and then..... Everyone please stop fantasizing about our beautiful people in our beautiful society and please drink some alcohol and get it on with your fat unattractive but well educated and humorous wives.

"P.S. I love the way the shop keepers look at me when I buy beer at 8 a.m. its very delightful"

[Jaggy Bunnet]

If your spouse has asked you not to drink, or drink so much, and you ignore him or her, that's a problem. Whether you own responsibility for it or not doesn't make it any less so. If having that next drink is more important to you than the happiness of your spouse, you both have a problem.

Surely that cuts both ways: if you NOT having a drink is more important to your spouse than your happiness, then you both have a problem? In other words it is a problem because of a difference of opinion between the spouses and the subject of that disagreement is irrelevant - it could be alcohol, golf or posting on JREF.

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not really qualified to diagnosis alcoholism............there are various things (referred to as signposts) that might indicate an indivual may be drifting into alcoholism.
But is there a real diagnosis? Does it mean anything more than you have problems with alcohol? That was argued above that you do not have to have any of the social ramifications to be an alcoholic, so that is not a valid criteria for everyone. What is?

[HeavyAaron]

I was thinking about starting another thread but anyway, here's a link;

http://testyourself.netdoctor.co.uk/interactivetests/alcoholdrinking.php?n=collection&p=English%20addicted%20to%20alcohol%20lifestyle_po rtal&c=lifestyle_portal

I got - " You have no apparent problems with alcohol. "

I tried it, but too many of the questions were loaded. (Specifically they assume I've drank alcohol before.) As a result I couldn't find out if I have a problem with alcohol :(.

Aaron

[HeavyAaron]

Has anyone had luck going the month? I just keep getting thristy. I fall off the wagon, drink some water, then try the whole month over again.

[Mycroft]

OK, maybe you're strong enough and responsible enough to stop at just one drink.

It's pretty common for me that when I want a beer, I only have one beer and don't even finish that. You know, once in a while when you just think a beer would taste good with your sandwich. That’s if I’m drinking for the flavor of the drink.

If I’m drinking for the effect that’s a different matter entirely. If the purpose is to get tipsy, then certainly there is no point at stopping at one as that isn’t enough to do it.

[senorpogo]

Well, you could look that up and make sure you're getting the right info, but I will tell you what I was told for years in Al-Anon, the support group for families of alcoholics:

"If your drinking is causing problems in your life, then you have a drinking problem. If you cannot choose to abstain from alcohol in spite of the problems it causes, then you are an alcoholic."


The reason I ask is because Ralph said in one of his posts

Alcoholism is progressive--there are early-mid- and late stages. Most people are fairly functional through the early stages. The nasty stuff tends to occur in the later stages although many alcoholics get well into old age keeping their jobs, not getting arrested, and never beating up the kids.

It sounds like if you drink at all yet show no signs of being an alcoholic, well, you still might really be one, you just haven't matured deep into alcoholism. That doesn't sound right.

[senorpogo]

"P.S. I love the way the shop keepers look at me when I buy beer at 8 a.m. its very delightful"

I love when I just buy beer and a big bag of chips. It's as though my purchase is soundly conveying to the shopkepper - "yes, I'm not going out tonight, but I will be drinking and eating chips." I enjoy revealing a little about my life to such a complete stranger.

[slingblade]

It sounds like if you drink at all yet show no signs of being an alcoholic, well, you still might really be one, you just haven't matured deep into alcoholism. That doesn't sound right.

It's not much easier for those who are in it, either, as I recall. It took us a few years (really bad years) for my ex to admit what he says he knew all along. He'd been drinking since 15, and became almost immediately addicted. Both parents were alcoholics, too, and it killed his dad. When he died, they found cases and cases of some local Boston beer or ale stacked in his house. Can't remember what it was called, but it was a brand we didn't see out west, at the time.

But the difficulty is why Al-Anon and AA use the "definition" they do. There is no real hard-and-fast; everyone is different. So the basic premise is if it is causing problems, then it's a drinking problem.

I haven't cared about the topic for 15 years, since I left him, but I recall that during my tenure in hell, there was talk that some folks might actually have a sort of allergy to the grains in alcohol. The ex was tested for grasses and pollens and was found to be highly allergic to several types.

I used to wonder how true that was, and how meaningful or significant.

In Al-Anon and AA, they used to tell us: "You can be a weekend-alcoholic. You can be an alcoholic on beer alone. You can drink one weekend a month, but if it seems to change your personality, or have other obvious effects, you probably have a problem. Alcoholisim comes in many forms and types, but the single common thread is that drinking makes your life worse."

They also used to stress the idea that an alcoholic cannot stop at just one drink, so that could be another sign.

I feel it's one of those complicated issues where you can't logically or correctly say it's all physical, or all mental, or all social, or all moral. That all these things are part of it is what makes it so confusing.

[fabian_lidman]

Right now, I try desperately to stop. In less than a week, I predict that I will have changed my mind and started drinking again. It's easy to make the choice to stop, it's very hard not to change your mind after a while. I don't know why.

[ponderingturtle]

Here is a question, is everyone who is a bad drunk an alcoholic?

[Meffy]

I used to drink heavily, back in the 1980s. I got tired of it and pretty much stopped. Now I buy a twelve-pack two or three times a year... and usually forget it's there.

[nosho]

I have let this thread simmer down for several months. During that time, I've become even more convinced of my original position.

Some of the posts in this thread really surprise me, because they express so much pain, so much negativity, so much animosity. I believe one has to generate a huge amount of negativity in oneself before one seeks to lash out at another. And many of the posts in this thread clearly have nothing to do with a courteous and respectful exchange of thoughts and opinions.

Alcohol use is so deeply imbedded into our socialization as human beings, some of us don't seem to be able to separate it from our sense of self. Criticism of alcohol use becomes tantamount to criticism of oneself. For those of you who really became angry or disgusted with what I had to say, I fear there is no basis for rational dialogue at all unless you are strong enough to take a step back and try to look at yourself objectively. Really look, honestly and deeply. Understand what it is within yourself that is causing you this pain you are trying to express.

From my vantage point, society looks as if it has been brainwashed. The slogan "drink responsibly" is a hugely successful marketing ploy of the American Beverage Institute. Look at the group's website, www.abionline.org. The entire purpose of this type of slogan is to send the affirmative message: "DRINK."

People seem to buy that marketing message because they want to. Because alcohol is such a huge part of our society. We're hit with the message constantly to drink responsibly, drink responsibly, until we don't even question it any more. And the underlying message is: Drink. We no longer question it. We're like robots.

Alcohol kills brain cells. Alcohol deadens the ability to feel sensations in the body. Alcohol has an effect that is unlike the effect of any of the other activities people here have posted about in this thread, such as dancing, or using the Internet. You're comparing apples with oranges if you liken alcohol use to these other activities.

Take another look at the studies I referred to in the OP. For that matter, do some research on the Internet on fetal alcohol syndrome. It's alarming.

Fetal alcohol syndrome is a powerful argument in favor of recognizing that our behavior can and does have an effect on others. We have to take responsibility.

Browse through the newspaper and see how often alcohol is a factor in the crimes you read about, from murder to fatal accidents. It's appalling.

This has nothing to do with trying to live a life without risks. Rather, it has everything to do with living a life that's healthy and affirmative for oneself and others. This is real freedom, the freedom to be able to make healthy choices that support and enhance well-being.

I very sincerely wish each of you the strength to have this kind of freedom.

Peace.

[The_Fire]

I have let this thread simmer down for several months. During that time, I've become even more convinced of my original position.


Having just read through your OP, I still call it BS.



Some of the posts in this thread really surprise me, because they express so much pain, so much negativity, so much animosity. I believe one has to generate a huge amount of negativity in oneself before one seeks to lash out at another. And many of the posts in this thread clearly have nothing to do with a courteous and respectful exchange of thoughts and opinions.


Have you been reading the same thread as me?


Alcohol use is so deeply imbedded into our socialization as human beings, some of us don't seem to be able to separate it from our sense of self.


Yes and no. Some people have a problem with alcohol. That doesn't make it the scourge of the world as others have no problem distinguishing between drinking and a sense of self. I cannot help but think that the real problem is within in YOU.



Criticism of alcohol use becomes tantamount to criticism of oneself. For those of you who really became angry or disgusted with what I had to say, I fear there is no basis for rational dialogue at all unless you are strong enough to take a step back and try to look at yourself objectively. Really look, honestly and deeply. Understand what it is within yourself that is causing you this pain you are trying to express.



Or maybe it's exasperation at someone whom come across as "I'm Hollier than Thou".



From my vantage point, society looks as if it has been brainwashed. The slogan "drink responsibly" is a hugely successful marketing ploy of the American Beverage Institute. Look at the group's website, www.abionline.org. The entire purpose of this type of slogan is to send the affirmative message: "DRINK."


And what about those of us whom are not American? I drink responsible.



People seem to buy that marketing message because they want to. Because alcohol is such a huge part of our society. We're hit with the message constantly to drink responsibly, drink responsibly, until we don't even question it any more. And the underlying message is: Drink. We no longer question it. We're like robots.

Disagrees. But then again, according to you, I'm brainwashed. Riddle me this: How come I didn't manage to get my first real buzz untill I was 18? According to you I should have been drinking pretty much since birth and my parents should have encouraged me all the way.


Alcohol kills brain cells. Alcohol deadens the ability to feel sensations in the body. Alcohol has an effect that is unlike the effect of any of the other activities people here have posted about in this thread, such as dancing, or using the Internet. You're comparing apples with oranges if you liken alcohol use to these other activities.


And yet there is something called "Internet Addiction". And the other things have effects as well.



Take another look at the studies I referred to in the OP. For that matter, do some research on the Internet on fetal alcohol syndrome. It's alarming.



Yes, fetal alcohol syndrome is alarming. But you are using a fallacy as evidence. And that's a no-no.


Fetal alcohol syndrome is a powerful argument in favor of recognizing that our behavior can and does have an effect on others. We have to take responsibility.


But you still haven't provided evidence for your assertions that alcohol consumption cannot be done responsible or that some big conspiracy is out to make addicts of us all.


Browse through the newspaper and see how often alcohol is a factor in the crimes you read about, from murder to fatal accidents. It's appalling.



Fallacy. Not evidence.



This has nothing to do with trying to live a life without risks. Rather, it has everything to do with living a life that's healthy and affirmative for oneself and others. This is real freedom, the freedom to be able to make healthy choices that support and enhance well-being.


Don't you mean freedom to live a life YOU see as being fit? I like my occasional glass of wine with my fish. I like my beer from time to time. That is part of what makes my life worth living. And it's my life, not yours.


I very sincerely wish each of you the strength to have this kind of freedom.

Peace.

I already have.

[Euromutt]

On the other hand, if I choose not to drink, I create in my own small way the momentum of social change. If more people did the same thing, we could slowly change the culture of drinking in our society that clearly and obviously results in tremendous harm.I'm sure you'd love to think that, but it's wishful thinking. Consider Saudi Arabia: a place par excellence where alcohol consumption is frowned upon culturally and legally, being punishable by flogging ("about forty lashes") for a first offense, ranging up to the death penalty for repeat offenders. Yet strangely, one of the most dangerous stretches of road in the world is the causeway which connects Saudi Arabia with Bahrain. See, what happens is that Saudis drive to Bahrain, where alcohol is heavily regulated but not banned outright, get thoroughly tanked in the bar at the airport, and then drive back to Saudi. They aren't breaking the law in Saudi, because the Kingdom has no law against driving while under the influence; for how could you drink and drive in a country where you supposedly can't drink in the first place? The key word there, incidentally, is "supposedly." Strangely, Saudi supermarkets stock bulk containers of grape juice right alongside the industrial-sized bags of sugar and yeast. It's almost as if they expected their customers to have wine-making equipment, or even a still, set up in their spare bathrooms. But clearly that's impossible, right? Surely, in a place which exhibits such cultural disapproval of drinking as Saudi Arabia, nobody would even think of manufacturing their own booze.

Then there's Iran. With the right connections, getting hold of booze is no problem, nor is ensuring the cops won't come and bust up your party on Thursday night, either, especially if you live in north Tehran. Most Iranians, however, don't have these connections, so drinking is a little harder to do in Iran. Since the penalties for being caught with a beer are as harsh as for being caught with a bottle of 40% ABV hard liquor, though, the latter is more prevalent than the former, since it's easier to conceal the amount of alcohol required to get a buzz going when it's in more concentrated form. On the other hand, heroin is cheap and plentiful, what with Afghanistan being right next door and Iran being the first stop on the trafficking route to Europe, and the number of heroin addicts in Iran is staggering, despite heroin being considered as bad as, if not not worse than, alcohol.

Now, note that Iran doesn't have a substance abuse problem because it has "a culture of substance abuse"; it has a substance abuse problem because it's Iran. And, in my experience, substance abusers don't have problem because they abuse substances; they abuse substances because they have a problem (even if the substance abuse may lead to additional problems). I used to work at ICTY, and my first job there was analyzing witness statements to determine who (according to that particular document) did what, where and to whom, and entering that information into a relational database. The ten months in which I did that were the period in which I drank most heavily in my life. Significantly, I drank heavily Mondays through Fridays, after work, but significantly less (if at all) on Saturdays and Sundays. If, during that period, you'd told me, while I was cracking open my sixth beer of the evening, that I wasn't "doing myself any favors by drinking," my response would have been:
"Listen, I just spent eight hours today alone reading accounts of beatings, torture, rapes, murders, and how people lost everything and everyone they ever cared about. Alcohol will help me sleep tonight. Alcohol-induced sleep may not be as good as the regular thing, but it beats no sleep."
Significantly, when I moved to another job, my drinking dropped dramatically. Again, I didn't have problem because I drank; I drank because I had a problem. If it hadn't been drinking, I'd have compulsively engaged in some other activity to distract me.

That's the flaw in Twelve-Step programs: they operate on the basis that the "addiction" to whatever it is that particular program is supposed to be treating is the problem, and that if the subject can kick the "addiction," that'll be the end of it. The fact is that, even in "successful" cases, all that happens is that the subject switches "addictions." An AA attendee who successfully weans himself off booze will, if his "root" problem isn't identified and dealt with, instead turn to cigarettes, coffee, even AA meetings themselves as a means of distracting his attention from what's really bothering him.

[Cleon]

:rolleyes:

[Darth Rotor]

As a society, we have a drinking problem (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ac.pdf).


Whos' this "we," paleface?

DR

[drkitten]

If you drink regularly in moderation, ask yourself, can you stop drinking for a month?

Yes.

If so, then do it, as an experiment.

Done it already, several times. Not as an experiment, but simply as a "too lazy to buy booze."

If you can stop for a month, why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month?

Because it wouldn't actually be a favor to anyone. Not to myself, not to anyone else, not even to the nice person at the local off-license.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no negative results -- to myself to anyone else -- from my drinking at all. (Netdoctor seems to agree with me.) And, if the medicos are correct, there are substantial benefits to myself. It's also simply fun.

If you have a rational basis for suggesting that my drinking harms people, let me know. But, as you put it, "I fear there is no basis for rational dialogue at all unless you are strong enough to take a step back and try to look at yourself objectively." And I similarly fear that you have no objective basis to complain about social drinking.....

[Wheezebucket]

I drink on occasion. I don't do it so much these days on account of all the drugs, but I still like it. I'm not really concerned if my drinking an alcoholic beverage influences someone else. I never asked to be a role model, and I don't drink in public schools or on playgrounds.

[Jorghnassen]

Yes.

Done it already, several times. Not as an experiment, but simply as a "too lazy to buy booze."

Ditto. In a week, I won't have had a drop in a month, simply because it's such a pain to buy alcohol in Ontario (and I don't have a car).

/will be enjoying some cidre de glace soon after I return to civilization...

[wastepanel]

Since I am 9 weeks into a quit of an addiction (tobacco), I have to say I know where this guy is coming from. Unfortunately, just like it is in my case, an addict assumes that the substance he/she was addicted to is evil.

I chewed for 10 years. I gave up and quit. I am trying to convince anybody else I see that is chewing to do the same. Yet, I know there are a few people that can chew whenever they want. They aren't addicted. I can't enjoy that random hit.

I do agree with the premise that if you can't quit drinking for a month, than you may have a problem.

[firecoins]

I think as a society, we have a problem with people who assume that everyone has the same troubles as them.
I am sick and tired of the media reporting everyone is sick and tired. I am certainly not.

[Mid]

...snip...
Alcohol kills brain cells.
...snip...


Having watched QI on BBC2 on Friday I've got to ask, do you have evidence to back this up?

A quick google would seem to disagree, but I'm no medical expert.

[Morrigan]

I have never been drunk in my entire life (I'm 24). I don't like alcohol (of all of those I've tasted - and that includes beer, various wines, tia maria, porto and a few others - the only one I found even remotely drinkable was beer), and I don't care about getting drunk, so I just don't drink at all.

Yet, nosho, I think your posts are full of crap. People react "negatively" to your posts not because anything you say hits a nerve, but because they're full of logical fallacies, baseless assumptions and pretentiousness disguised as faux-modesty. There is also a strong implication that people who drink are "brainwashed" by media, "like robots", which is insulting no matter how you spin it.

A good refutation of your post was the comparison with Internet addiction, or porn, or other "cravings" that can be "dangerous". You haven't replied to that. Other refutations include the comparison with Saudi Arabia and Iran (so much for the "culture of drinking"). I'll add my own: your notion of a "culture of drink" is absurd. Drinking alcohol is pretty much universal (despite religious taboos, as we can see with Euromutt's post, that really doesn't stop people much).
People have been drinking, and getting drunk, for ages. You only have to look at Dionysus and various pagan rituals involving wine to know that it's nothing new. Excessive drinking... I doubt Roman orgies were done totally sober, hmm. While it could be that some cultures have a stronger presence of alcohol than others, I don't think it has anything to do with the media exposure. After all, the media doesn't invent anything, it just throws at us what we already know.

[firecoins]

wine guards against lung cancer
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/96/103567.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/96/103567.htm)

wine reduces cardiovascular disease
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/14/1671_51501.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/14/1671_51501.htm)

wine reduces against prostate cancer
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/94/102796.htm (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/94/102796.htm)

[kalen]

One of the best sites around: Modern Drunkard Magazine (http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/index.html)

[Huntster]

....There's no such think as drinking responsibly.....

Yes, some thoughts are irresponsible, but I think them anyway.

Same with beer and wine. I like 'em, and have no need to stop enjoying them. So I enjoy them. Is it "responsible?"

Not to you, but I'm not here to make you happy.

Sorry. Those are my irresponsible thoughts.

[Sally]

I admit I did not read much after the first page. The orginal poster seemed a bit hung up on some issues involving themselves and those close to them.

I just wanted to added who drinking enhances my life personally. The $500 I left with in tips friday night from bartending is going to go to this months rent. Drinkers are providing a roof over my head and I am very thankful for them.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

If you drink alcohol, you have a serious problem.

That stuff tastes so gross, why would you want to :p !

[Darth Rotor]

If you drink alcohol, you have a serious problem.

That stuff tastes so gross, why would you want to :p !
If you do not drink Scotch, you have a serious problem. That stuff tastes so good, why would you not want to drink it?

DR

[senorpogo]

One of the best sites around: Modern Drunkard Magazine (http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/index.html)

Glad to see I'm not the only fan.

As for the OP: I don't know if I could quit drinking for thirty days. I just enjoy it too much. Do I have a problem? Maybe. If I do, it's one of many and I'm okay with that.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

If you do not drink Scotch, you have a serious problem. That stuff tastes so good, why would you not want to drink it?

DR

Ew :eek: ! That stuff was the worst! I am mandating my personal preferences here, not yours!

ETA: :p

[Dunstan]

I just started reading this thread today. When I read the original post and saw it was a four-pager thread, I wondered "how long did it take for people to start posting drink recipies?" I'm counting the martini discussion somewhere on page two, which led me to mix a Belvedere martini (just a touch of vermouth, with an olive and a pearl onion).

Just one serious point to make to the original poster. Has it occurred to you that one of the ways you can be a good role model is to use alcohol responsibly? Insisting on abstinence as the only acceptable behavior will work no better for alcohol than it will for sex education, and for similar reasons. Whether you agree with it or not, "premarital sex is bad" is not a very effective message for the vast majority of teenagers. Similarly, "all drinking is bad" is a message that kids are going to reject (and for good reason). "It's ok to drink, as long as ..." is a message that has a hope of getting through.

I just wanted to added who drinking enhances my life personally. The $500 I left with in tips friday night from bartending is going to go to this months rent. Drinkers are providing a roof over my head and I am very thankful for them.

You're welcome. Now I'll take another martini. And please chill the glass first. There's nothing sillier than shaking a martini over ice only to dump it into a room temperature glass (or worse yet, one that's still hot from the dish dryer).

[Huntster]

If you drink alcohol, you have a serious problem.

That stuff tastes so gross, why would you want to :p !

Never tried homemade blueberry wine, made from wild blueberries picked in the mountains while glancing up every now and then for a moose to put in the freezer, or to ensure a bear isn't sharing the blueberry patch with you?

A gentle breeze blowing by, with the smells of the mountains rushing by your nose......later rolling the berries down a screen to separate them from leaves and stems......the smells of the berries fermenting in the pot................

You don't know what you're missing................

[ClintonHammond]

" Can you stop drinking?"

I MIGHT stop drinking when I'm dead.... MIGHT!!

Until then, if you don't like my fire
Don't come around

[luchog]

This guy reminds me of a (now former) friend. She has the potential to be very violent, abusive, and obnoxious. She appears incapable of maintaining a healthy relationship, has a very difficult time coping with people significantly different than her ideologically, and cannot handle disagreements well. And she's never had a drink or used any recreational drug in her life. She had the attitude that anyone who drank or used any kind of recreational drug, no matter how minimally, had a problem; and if they denied that they did, that was simply proof that they had an even bigger problem. Being raised by violent alcoholics, I can understand it to some extent; but ultimately her strident self-righteousness manifested in fairly abusive ways. She verbally attacked me rather visciously several times, one of which was over a meaningless triviality. I put up with it for a while, but when I disagreed with her, politely i might add, on the efficacy of "alternative" medicine (she's a huge supporter of "naturopathy"), and she stated somewhat graphically how much she would like to see me dead because of that and my "obvious drug problem" (never mind that I haven't used anything of any sort for nearly a year) I had to cut off our friendship.

I've grown up in a family with a serious history of drug abuse on both sides. I'm capable of recognizing and undestanding the difference between responsible use and abuse. She was not, and was not interested in leaning the difference.

The problem isn't the drugs or alcohol. The problem is extremes of behaviour that are exacerbated by drugs use. I agree that there are some people who simply should not use any sort of drug, including alcohol. They are simply not able to do so responsibly. They're usually also not able to responsibly manage their money (she certainly wasn't), relationships, or any other part of their life.

Their big problem is that they lack both self control and a strong sense of personal responsibility. They act primarily on impulse, and do not have the tools to regulate their behaviour; and often no interest in developing those tools. Because they cannot control themselves, they are unable to cope with the temptation provided by others around them. They don't want to believe anyone else has a level of self-control that they don't, because it points up their own personal failing. They put the blame for their problem on the substance itself, instead of their own lack of control, because it absolves them of responsibility for their own lives and actions. They would rather see themselves as innocent victims of a magical evil force than admit that their problems originate within themselves.

Part of what I don't like about 12-step programs is that, although they purport to teach personal responsibility, they do so only at a very shallow, superficial level. Ultimately, they perpetuate the victimhood mentality, fail to deal with the core problem that causes the alcoholism, drug abuse, or behaviour addiction, and as others have noted, simply exchange one addiction for another, one bad behaviour for another. Self-abuse becomes self-righteousness. It's telling that there are 12-step programs for addiction to 12-step programs.

But there are plenty of us, I'd say the majority, who do not have such extremist natures, and aren't going to go out and destroy everything around us just by having a couple drinks at the club on a weekend.

This guy doesn't strike me as quite that way, though he's got more than a little of the self-righteous streak to him. But he's clearly the type who lacks self control and doesn't want to take responsibility for that fact.

To be fair, it's the antioxidants in red wine that have the benefits. Alcohol doesn't have any benefits itself. I also think that most (if not all) the beneficial antioxidants in red wine have been identified and they are easily obtainable from other sources.
Actually, the alcohol itself does. In moderate doses, it promotes the formation of HDL cholesterol over LDL cholesterol; maintaning a healthy balance and reducing the buildup of fatty deposits in arteries. Of course, heavy consumption completely undoes any benefits.
If you do not drink Scotch, you have a serious problem. That stuff tastes so good, why would you not want to drink it?
Only if it's a good Islay or similar; or one of a very few Highland malts.

One of my favorites, when I'm in the mood for something sweet, is a drink a friend and I call a "Chocolate Rocket". Two parts Godiva dark chcolate liquer, one part Sylk (or Bailey's or Brendan's, but I prefer Sylk) cream liquer. Hit with one part of Vodka to punch it up a bit, or one part of Kalhua or Tia Maria for a Coffee Rocket.

One of my favorite drinks is also one of the most expensive. Absinthe. Not that evil pseudo-absinthe Czech or Spanish crap, but real French and Swiss absinthe. There's simply nothing else like it.

[varwoche]

A good refutation of your post was the comparison with Internet addiction, or porn or other "cravings" that can be "dangerous". If I may interject, this is a poor analogy. While addiction in and of itself may be psychologically harmful, alcohol is physically harmful.

People have been drinking, and getting drunk, for ages. You only have to look at Dionysus and various pagan rituals involving wine to know that it's nothing new. Excessive drinking. What does this have to do with the price of bread? People have been doing all sort of things for ages that are illogical and/or harmful, based on what we know today.

[Darth Rotor]

Ew :eek: ! That stuff was the worst! I am mandating my personal preferences here, not yours!

ETA: :p
I was tweaking your nose a bit, of course. :) The suggestion that the collective "you" must have problems if choosing to drink (alcohol) was the point of the parody.

I understand personal taste, and that many people do not like Scotch. My father likes a glass of wine now and again, but he abhors beer.

Teatotalling is OK. More beer left for me. :D

DR

[Darth Rotor]

A good refutation of your post was the comparison with Internet addiction, or porn, or other "cravings" that can be "dangerous".
I hope you realize that an internet addiction = porn addiction NSFW!! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5430343841227974645). :D WARNING: Crass humor in the video, and a couple of NSFW cartoon images near the end.

(I figured from your avatar that you might be familiar with the MMORPG the video came from. My son alerted me to this little funny. )

DR

[roger]

I can stop drinking. Heck, I've only been drunk once in my life, and so far, it's lasted 23 years.

[Luke T.]

nosho, I would have guessed that you were the co-dependent of an alcoholic, but you say no one in your immediate family is alcoholic. But, damn, you sound a lot like a co-dependent, I must say.

I am an alcoholic. I have been sober for more than 11.5 years. And you know what? Ain't nobody responsible for my drinking except me. I was an alky from the very first sip, nosho. I didn't need any role models to get me hooked or to tell me it was okay to drink. In fact, I was spoken to often about my problem. And every time someone told me that I really ought to give it up, it was "Buh-bye, I don't want to know you any more".

It is convenient for an alky to blame everyone else but himself for his problem. Society, bad parents, blue fairies on the moon, James Bond and his goddam martinis. I tried a few of those on, and it only succeeded in me drinking some more, because now I had a REASON to drink!

"You'd drink, too, if..."

Buncha bull.

Let me tell you how an alcoholic thinks, okay?

You talked about how you just drinking one or two sets an example that drinking is okay. Well, let me straighten you out on that.

You know what an alky thinks when he sees a guy like you drink one drink and walk away? He thinks, "What the ever-loving F*** is the point of drinking if you aren't going to get WASTED?!?!"

I still think that way. I don't get "normal" people. One drink. Geezus, give me a break! Freaking earthlings, man. One drink. Get thee behind me!

Sure, on an intellectual level, I can get it. Like cake. I might eat a piece of cake, and if it's really good, maybe I'll have a second slice. Okay. I'm not going to eat the whole freaking bakery, though, right?

So I sorta get it.

But inside where it really counts, I don't get it. I really don't. When I drink, I drink to get wasted. There is no other point to it for me.

Okay. Done.

[rserocki]

I don't think I have anything useful to add here, but I'll post anyway. I started drinking a few years ago. In order to be moderate about it, when I get buy alcohol along with my groceries, I don't buy any more than once every two weeks, and this would typically be a six-pack of beer or a bottle of wine. When I drank, I'd have two servings a day. I sometimes skipped buying alcohol on the visits when I'd allowed myself to, and the last time I had anything alcoholic was when I had dinner at my sister's place in the second half of September. I haven't had any since that time.

Trivia: Certain kinds of beer have given me sneezing fits. Maybe it's the hops?

[Jorghnassen]

No offense to the alcoholics, but here's a classic Baudelaire quote:


Les gens qui ne boivent jamais de vin sont des imbéciles ou des hypocrites. Un homme qui ne boit que de l'eau a un secret à cacher à ses semblables.

Which freely translates to:

Those who never drink wine are either imbeciles or hypocrites. The man who only drinks water is hiding a secret from his peers.


/just a random bit of culture...

[Euromutt]

People have been drinking, and getting drunk, for ages. [...] While it could be that some cultures have a stronger presence of alcohol than others, I don't think it has anything to do with the media exposure.If you look at historical factors, consider the quality of the local water supply. For much of European history, especially in urban areas, drinking water was a swift route to an early grave from diseases like cholera, and prior to the invention of pasteurization, it was best to be wary around milk as well. So what could you drink that wasn't likely to kill you? Alcoholic beverages, that's what. In northern Europe, even small children drank beer by default (though in their case, they had "small beer," which was only around 2% ABV). As a result, for a very long time, when people talk of "drink" in a pre-20th century context, more often than not, they specifically mean hard liquor. When we say that the Puritans (and other Calvinists) "disapproved of drink," that means brandy, gin and whisk(e)y, and does not include beer and wine. My great-grandmother married my great-grandfather because he was the only man in the village who didn't drink, but by that, she meant "the only man in the village who didn't drink gin"; that was the northern Netherlands in 1910. To this day, in many Slavic countries (which have tended to lag behind western Europe technologically, and thus have more cause to worry whether the water is potable), drinking beer and wine isn't considered "real" drinking; it is illegal to drink in public in Russia, for example, but that means hard liquor (primarily vodka, natch), not beer or wine.

Centuries of bad water would certainly provide a better explanation why drinking, at least beer and wine, is ingrained in western culture than attributing it to "the media."

[Rasmus]

I have been drinking since I was about three. My parents figured if they'd let me have a sip of beer I should be thoroughly disgusted and not touch it again for a while.

They were utterly wrong, of course. I've had an occasional sip of beer ever since, and as I grew older (some time into into my teens, if i remember corrctly) I would even go as far as sharing an entire bottle with my dad or other relatives.

I remeber (yes, I am still capable to remember things sometimes) how I once asked if anyone wanted some of my beer. An uncle laughed and told me that if someone would open himself a beer they had better be able to finish it. I did finish the beer whilst my mom informed him that I was just being nice and wanted to share the last beer.

I'll get tipsy from as little as a sip of champaign, and even beer tends to go to my head pretty quickly. I was 20 when I first got drunk on the day I graduated from highschool.

I got drunk a few times at university, too. Wasted, even. I also graduated. I still get drunk sometimes - maybe twice or four times a year. Can I not drink for a month? sure. I need a car to get around, after all, so I barely drink. It has been less than a month now, I think I had a beer three weeks or so ago, and I've been eating chicken that was marinaded with sauces containing alcohol.

I drink. I am not an alcoholic. I agree that I am not doing myself or anyone else a favour if i stop drinking for a month, or two, or three. I *am* doing everyone a favour by not getting drunk when driving, I am doing me a favour by not getting drunk a lot since that would be unhealthy. I am not even doing anyone else a favour by not getting drunk, though. I am nice and friendly either way.

I haven't even been raised to drink responsibly as such. I have been raised to act responsible and without alcohol being condemned for some silly reason. Maybe I was just lucky where alcohol is concerned.

Just my 2‰

[luchog]

I haven't even been raised to drink responsibly as such. I have been raised to act responsible and without alcohol being condemned for some silly reason. Maybe I was just lucky where alcohol is concerned.
Being raised as a generally responsible person makes it far more likely that one will be a more responsible drinker.

But not universally. To amend my previous comments on the subject, some people are genetically prone to alcoholism. They have an abnormal physical reaction to alcohol that causes it to affect them more like harder drugs; and makes it far more likely they'll develop a physical dependence as well as a psychological addiction. Likewise, there are some who are the opposite, who are highly unlikely to become alcoholics because they have an abnormally low reaction.

Interesting example of the latter, I have a friend who seems incapable of getting drunk. I've seen him drink enough to put me in the hospital with severe alcohol poisoning and still remain nearly dead sober; and he's only about half-again my body mass. I've never seen him even approaching drunk. And he's never been a habitual, let alone consistently heavy, drinker. His reactions to other drugs seems to be normal, even the ones he's used heavily (namely LSD). It's weird.

[hammegk]

I'm working on it, I joined AAA.

Er, don't they just drive you to drink? :D

[Number Six]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with drinking but that I think many people drink for the wrong reasons. Many, many drink just to go along. It is such a herd mentality and so mindless. When I think back to what it was like in college, and also what it is like in the college town I live in now, it is just so...mindless is the word that keeps coming back to me. People do it just because it's what people do, which admittedly is true for a lot of things.

And another reason some people drink is to avoid facing their life or their problems, which is another bad reason to do it.

I once heard a really good line, credited to the late Paul Tsongas but I don't know if he first said it or not, and the line is "Nobody lies on their death bed and thinks to themselves 'I wish I had spent less time with my family.'" Similarly, nobody lies on their death bed and thinks to themselves "I wish I had drank more."

All that said I think alcohol can be and is used well by some people. I occassionally drink nowadays but not nearly as much as I used to. When I think back to all the time and money I've wasted drinking in my life it seems so pointless, and it was all because I was going along with the crowd instead of thinking and acting for myself. When I go out now and see all these college students drinking like crazy, for sport basically, it just seems pathetic and depressing. Maybe I'm just getting old and can no longer relate to that unbridled zest for life that young people have, but sometimes the unbridled zest seems more to me like blind conformity.

[Rasmus]

And my take on the OP, too, even though it comes very late.

Mel Gibson's case illustrates why the smartest choice is not to drink alcohol at all.

With a sample size of one? Hardly. He's an example that you shouldn't drink too much perhaps, or that you shouldn't be a bad actor in silly religious movies...

As a society, we have a drinking problem (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ac.pdf).

"Speak for yourself" is often good advice. I personally know a handful of people from your society that do not contribute to what you seem to perceive as a problem.

There's evidence that drinking alcohol is harmful to ourself and those around us (http://www.drugwarfacts.org/alcohol.htm).

If done in moderation? The link you gave doesn't suggest it - but I am sure I could find similar statistics for white bread. If many people drink then *of course* you will have many drinking criminals, too. No proof of causation there, though.

Alcohol does something to your brain.

Just like milk, sugar, chocolate and oxygen.

People suffer tremendously as a direct consequence of drinking alcohol or being around people who drink alcohol. Every alcoholic starts with just one drink. Every drunken-driving death starts with just one drink.

I sense a slippery slope.

Nobody sips that first drink thinking, "I'm going to ruin my life," or "I'm going to kill someone tonight." We all tend to think that just one drink is no big deal. But "just one drink" has a way of turning into another. And another.

And then you had a grand total of an entire three drinks. Whoopie. Of course, most people after 3 drinks, or even 6 or 9 or 12, will *still* not go out and kill someone, steer a car into a tree or get married in Vegas.

OK, maybe you're strong enough and responsible enough to stop at just one drink. Maybe you've never, ever had too much to drink, or done something stupid or hurtful after drinking alcohol. You think you're a responsible drinker.

Indeed. At least, I am as responsible when drinking as I am with other things. I am not perfect either way, but I don't expect myself to be. Oh: I've hurt more people when I was sober, so I guess I ought to be drinking more, yes?

But the social reality in most cases is that when you drink, you encourage others to drink.

Yes, and when I eat I encourage others to have a bite, too. I give books to other people, too. Frequently.

When you drink, you teach your children to drink.
<rant>You better believe that I would teach my children to drink. I have seen many people who didn't know how to drink, and it wasn't always pretty. Funny thing is, these people tend to be underaged Americans set on the loose in Europe where a beer is no big deal. they certainly didn't know how to drink...</rant>

When you drink, through your example you invite others to engage in an activity that, for some of them, will become harmful. Even deadly.

Cry me a river.

I do the same driving my car. Or jogging, or swimming. Sometimes people die. It's called "live". Some people even die in their sleep, so I guess children should under no circumstances be encouraged to sleep, right?

If you drink regularly in moderation, ask yourself, can you stop drinking for a month? If so, then do it, as an experiment. If you can't stop for a month, you have a problem. If you can stop for a month, why not do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop for another month? And then another?

How exactly would I be doing anyone - including me - a favour?

I *like* beer, or chicken wings in a red-wine-and-herbs-sauce, as well as the slivovic sauce.

Prohibition isn't the answer. Individual choice is. There's no such think as drinking responsibly.


How is it a choice, if there are no real options acceptable to you?

And how on earth do you explain all the people that do drink, but somehow fail to kill others, do not beat their wifes and children and end up being productive members of their society?

And what insane twist of logic should have me being responsible for the actions of others? I drink. I can handle it. If you can't then you shouldn't be drinking regardless of what I do.

[deadrose]

I have a sister who is exactly the same way. She became alcoholic in her teens, and has been sober for nearly 14 years. She has the attitude that because she can't drink any more, nobody can.

I've even had to publically correct her, since she made the loud assumption that I never drank (apparently on the grounds that she never saw me drunk or reeking of booze).

It makes me wonder how it is that I don't go overboard on things. When I quit smoking, I didn't run around screeching at everyone else to quit. I support any of my friends that want to quit, but I don't harangue the others. I know people that can have an occasional cig, or a pipe, whenever they feel like it. I know that if *I* were to do that, I'd run the risk of starting to smoke again, so I don't. But I don't try to rearrange the world to my tastes.

Even if I look at it in the purely biochemical sense, it doesn't work. How many diabetics preach that everyone should stop eating sugar and other carbohydrates? How many of them call for carbs to be banned?

Besides, if I had a drinking problem I'd have to give up being a beer snob, and that'll never happen. I'd much rather go without beer than drink that nasty mass-market American crap. :D

Heidi