Cheney hunting accident conspiracy

[Ace_of_Sevens]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=721Jy6XYtMg

Andrew Sullivan used this as his You Tube of the day. I e-mailed him about the dubious authorship, but my extertise on shotgun ballistics is limited to a paper I wrote in an AP Physics class in high school. I don't really know enough to properly debunk it. Can anyone weigh in?

here's Sully site:

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/

[Axenos]

Now there are 10 minutes of my life I wish I had back.

I am no ballistics expert, but I grew up hunting in WV and had shotguns all my life.

As he says the load goes "All around his target, up and over" I just wanted to laugh. Yes, pellet groups expand as they travel... but his description just tells me he was shooting high.

You would also need the shotgun, as it has been my personal experience that all shotguns tend to shoot differently. I had a shotgun once that could keep a dinner plate sized pattern at 25 yards and believe me it would have penetrated your skin had I hit you.

There are several more things that would be needed to make that a valid test... too many for me to list here.

In my humble opinion it's just silly publicity... some dude on the conspiracy bandwagon.

[Mid]

There's a response up on his site. Did you send this?

You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes?

[Ace_of_Sevens]

Yeah. That was me.

[Mid]

:) :thumbsup:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

*sigh* He shouldn't have entered in to a field of knowledge of which I am quite familiar:
Jones' claim after the first round: 100 bb's in the load, 50 hit the target
fact: there are ~345 7 1/2 size pellets in 1 oz of shot. This means that there are ~258 pellets in 3/4 of an oz of 7 1/2 shot. http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html

Looking here http://www.angelfire.com/tx/ShotGun/ , under the Pattern section you can see that for cylindar (no choke, which was Jones' first shot) you can expect to retain 25-35% of the shot within the kill circle at 40 yards. This equates to 64-90 pellets hitting the target. 40 yards is further out than Cheney was, iirc. I believe Cheney was at ~30 yrds.

2nd round: if this is truly using the "modified" level of choke, we can expect 45-55% of shot to be within the 30" circle at 40 yards. This comes out to 116-141 pellets.

I'm not even going to comment on the "soft rubber" kickboxing dummy, beyond saying that the claim that its material is "very similar to human skin" is crap.

Per http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=X28H7&bn=1&use=6, we also see that (and this is just a standard load, I do not know if Cheney was using hand-loads or not) a 2 3/4" 28ga 3/4 oz shot shell will have ~1205 fps at the muzzle.

Jones' pattern complaint. He's wrong. Consider

Good to 35 Yards. It surprises many shooters that the 28-gauge delivers a consistent pattern out to 35 yards. On a percentage basis, the 28-gauge will put as much of its pattern into a 30-inch circle at 35 yards as a 12- or 20-gauge will. This makes the 28-gauge ideal for small-game hunting within that distance.http://www.progressivefarmer.com/farmer/outdoor/article/0,24672,1112682,00.html

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/ShotGun/ Pattern section as mentioned above

http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html

Typical Shot Spread Per Choke
Choke....Yards
.........10.....15......20......25......30......35 ......40......45......50
Full.....10"....15".....20".....25".....30".....35".....40".....45".....50"
Mod......15"....20".....25".....30".....35".....40".....45".....50"
I/C......20"....25".....30".....35".....40".....45".....50"
Cylinder.25"....30".....35".....40".....45".....50"

Dummy, chicken & watermelon: Jones never clarifies which choked barrel he is using. He could well be using the cylindar choke, which has a much larger spread than the modified choke.

Additionally, it is clearly windy. 7 1/2 size shot is only .095" in diameter, and is quite vulnerable to wind drift. This will affect the patterns observed upon the target.

[WildCat]

One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind.

[defaultdotxbe]

why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do?

[gumboot]

why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do?


No, the evil gubmint conspirat0rs are alien drones, telepathically controlled by the Queen deep inside the hive onboard the mothership orbiting the earth.

Hence for one drone to act, in actuality the entire hive has conspired to act. Ergo, conspiracy. When Bush goes to the bathroom... it's a conspiracy.

-Andrew

[kevin]

why would you need a conspiracy to shoot someone in the face with a shotgun? isnt that something you just go and do?

and then to screw it up and let the guy live. What kind of retard plans these things?

[defaultdotxbe]

and then to screw it up and let the guy live. What kind of retard plans these things?
probably the beaurocracy, he had to get approval from all his co-conspirators to finish the job with a second shot, and by the time he got the OK the guy was already in the ambulance on the hospital

[Azure]

I seriously fail to understand how the shooting can be made a conspiracy. Is Jones saying that Cheney "tried" to shoot his hunting buddy?

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.)

The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is.

[Azure]

Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.)

The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is.

Thanks.

At least I can try to understand where the CTer's are coming from.

Happy Birthday, btw. :)

[Ladewig]

Well, I'll give it a shot. (Thanks, I'll be here all week.)

The shooting itself is not a conspiracy. However, the rationale behind an intentional shooting made to appear as an accident might be. And the delay, including the unusual particulars on how the story was reported, could add to the idea. In a CTer's mind, that is.


I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

[kevin]

I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

These are the kind of conspiracies I think are more realistic. Covering up things to make yourself look better, involving one or two people. Once the conspiracy spreads more than about 5 people it's going to collapse.

[Polaris]

I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

That's been my take on it too - and to delay in order to figure out how best to spin it. What honks me off is that if any of us shot someone, albeit accidentally, we wouldn't have the luxury of waiting a few days before going to the police and not be charged with something.

[jimtron]

I've never considered myself a CTer, but I suspect the people around Cheney conspired after the accidental shooting to hide Cheney's blood alcohol level from the local police.

IIRC there were conflicting reports about whether there had been drinking or not. I think at one point someone said there was no drinking, and later someone said Cheney had had a drink.

[ktesibios]

So what we've got here appears to be Dick Cheney conspiring to make himself look like an utter dickweed.

And it worked like a charm.

[Horatius]

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

[Polaris]

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

The shock alone, and the scale of the impact of the shot is greater for a bird (those things die from running into windows, after all).

[jimtron]

From The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0222061cheney1.html):
Katharine Armstrong, who has given conflicting accounts of whether alcohol was consumed on the day of the hunt, wrote in her February 15 statement that, "to the best of my knowledge there was no alcohol involved." Willeford stated that "there was no alcohol consumed during the afternoon of the hunt in the field," though she did have a glass of wine with lunch several hours earlier. In a February 15 Fox News interview, Cheney said that he consumed a beer with his lunch. In a same-day supplement to her initial February 15 statement, Sarita Armstrong Hixon reported that, "to my knowledge none of the members of the shooting group...consumed any alcoholic beverages."

Maybe Cheney's gun wasn't the only thing that was loaded?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?

A 28 gauge should be effective on quail, and the like, out to about 30 yrds.

[defaultdotxbe]

I'm not a hunter, and have never fired a shotgun, but what I kept wondering about while I watched that video was, if the penetration really is so weak, how does anyone ever actually kill a bird with these things? Anyone more experienced in shooting want to address this issue? At what range do you usually shoot small animals, and whatnot?
it also depends on the shells, shotguns essentially shoot a bunch of little BBs, but depending on the shells used some will keep the BBs in a tight pack, others will have them spread out, it depends if you want to be effective at close range or long range, or against big game or small game

[Big Les]

I know this is a necropost, but I found this backyard ballistics test (http://www.myscienceproject.org/shooting.html) that is rather more scientifically conducted, and (naturally) comes to the opposite conclusion to Alex "Blaring Facets" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EltGTNglvIU) Jones. But one that makes perfect (even common) sense. I too noticed his botched high shot, interpreted as "evidence".

What a maroon.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I know this is a necropost, but I found this backyard ballistics test (http://www.myscienceproject.org/shooting.html) that is rather more scientifically conducted, and (naturally) comes to the opposite conclusion to Alex "Blaring Facets" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EltGTNglvIU) Jones. But one that makes perfect (even common) sense. I too noticed his botched high shot, interpreted as "evidence".

What a maroon.
That's a nice write-up on that page. Though, I think they were using the Cheney accident as a convenient excuse to go shoot up some random grocery purchases ;)

[skepticalcriticalguy]

One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind.

What's his name? I'd like to interview him for an article.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

There's a response up on his site. Did you send this?

Quote:
You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes?

When has Alex Jones said the Jews did 9/11?

[gumboot]

One of my old college roomates is now one of Cheney's Secret Service agents and was with him that day. I can assure you it was due to an accident, but of course my personal connection to the case probably automatically makes me suspect in the CT'er mind.



He wasn't around on 9/11 was he? Boy that would be a good explanation to get as far as all the shoot-down, Mineta, Richard Clarke garbage.

-Gumboot

[skepticalcriticalguy]

He wasn't around on 9/11 was he? Boy that would be a good explanation to get as far as all the shoot-down, Mineta, Richard Clarke garbage.

-Gumboot

Richard Clarke's garbage? What, the immediate accusations that it was Bin Laden? And his contacting the media immediately with his Bin Laden hypothesis? Garbage, indeed. MOLE garbage.

[gumboot]

Richard Clarke's garbage? What, the immediate accusations that it was Bin Laden? And his contacting the media immediately with his Bin Laden hypothesis? Garbage, indeed. MOLE garbage.



You misread my post. The garbage collectively relates to Mineta, the shoot-down order, and Richard Clarke.

There are a number of discrepancies between these and other sources, and 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists seem to think they're significant. The "garbage" is the conclusions they draw from these discrepancies.

-Gumboot

[skepticalcriticalguy]

You misread my post. The garbage collectively relates to Mineta, the shoot-down order, and Richard Clarke.

There are a number of discrepancies between these and other sources, and 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists seem to think they're significant. The "garbage" is the conclusions they draw from these discrepancies.

-Gumboot

OK, got it. I did misread.

But Clarke is still a mole. He is the one who started the Bin Laden train.

[The Doc]

OK, got it. I did misread.

But Clarke is still a mole. He is the one who started the Bin Laden train.

Several terrorism experts were interviewed on national TV before the collapse of either tower. A majority said the attacks show several al Qaeda trademarks and that Bin Laden was likely responsible.

[Liszt]

Here´s Ace of Seven´s pearl of wisdom (again)

Quote:
You do realize that Alex Jones is a conspiracy nut nut who thinks the Jews did 9/11 and not a ballistics expert, yes?

No, he claims the NWO did it. If a CTist had made such a simplistic mistake, he would have been torn apart. Not to mention that this "mistake" ´paints Jones as a rasict (he is, of course, merely an idiot).


Liszt, please review your membership agreement regarding civility; do not personalize things by offering insults. Attack the argument and not the person. I have edited and removed the inappropriate remarks, even though the member is not active in this thread at this time.

[Myriad]

Yes, and let's not have any of your high jinks, monkeyshines, or shenanigans either.

And get off my lawn!!

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Big Les]

Yeah, you rube! You maroon!

PS I resurrected this thread, Liszt - Ace_of_sevens originally posted 9 months ago.

[Liszt]

Yeah, you rube! You maroon!

PS I resurrected this thread, Liszt - Ace_of_sevens originally posted 9 months ago.

Thanks. It is a shame, there could have been a hullabaloo if he was still around.

[jmercer]

Everyone - please keep in mind that the CT sub-forum is currently under a much more stringent interpretation of the membership agreement at this time. Please read the sticky in this sub-forum for details.

Thanks.