The Turning Point That Was Zarqawi

[Mephisto]

I love wartime nostalgia and the warm vibratey feeling it sends up through my guttywuts, so I thought I would bring up the optimism we had back when "terrorist mastermind" (who didn't know how to handle an American weapon) Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed. It was going to be the end-all to the insurgency in Iraq and was hailed as one of the biggest blows to Al Qaeda. Everyone wanted to believe that the war was almost won.

Check out what FAUX News Fans were saying:

"The death of Zarqawi is the beginning of the end for the insurgency. The 17 raids that followed have given us more information to help in the fight against terrorism, and the death of Zarqawi will boost the morale of the Coalition forces." — Curt (Dallas, TX)

"Zarqawi's death will most certainly be a turning point in the war on terror. With these types of movements, there are a few fanatics that provide leadership. As was the case with Germany in WWII, once the leaders are removed, the organization falls apart." — Joseph

"This will be a short-term solution, because these guys will have more waiting in the wings. I believe that the people of Iraq have to now stand up for themselves. If nothing is done and another leader arises for the terrorists, it will be the same problem all over."— Mike (Middleburg, FL)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198688,00.html
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Even the Washington Post tried to believe that everything was going right.

BERLIN, June 9 -- The death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi could mark a turning point for al-Qaeda and the global jihadist movement, according to terrorism analysts and intelligence officials.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060902040.html
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Yet another prediction about this war that has gone terribly wrong. So much for striking a blow to jihadists all over the world, especially in light of what has transpired SINCE Zarqawi's death.

So much for making the world a safer place, huh?

[Pardalis]

It was going to be the end-all to the insurgency in Iraq and was hailed as one of the biggest blows to Al Qaeda. Everyone wanted to believe that the war was almost won.

Who ever said that? :confused:

[headscratcher4]

Remember...the insurgency is in its last throes...and our President has a plan. Had one all along. He is a stead-fast visionary. Stay the course. There is no civil war. Iraq is better off without Saddam...if you repeat all of these in constant succession than the thousands of Shiites marching for Hezbollah and against America and Israel in the streets of Bahgdad (where we were welcomed as liberators after a cake-walk war) will simply go away.

[senorpogo]

I'm never going to trust Curt from Dallas again!

So the readers/watchers of Fox News aren't terrorism experts. What's the point?

I do agree though that there have been an innordinate number of "Osama's #2" and "turning points in the war on terror". I remember when reaching an agreement with Al-Sadr's militia was the big key to stablizing the country. Now there's claims that his militia routinely harasses and attacks innocent Iraqi civilians (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#115472425289 075262).

It's like a novel without a protagonist.

[Mephisto]

It's like a novel without a protagonist.

Well we certainly can't claim ourselves protagonists any longer, not with secret prisons, torture and war atrocities. I'm sure both Bin Laden and Bush see themselves as the "good guys," but as in the end of Orwell's 1984, I can no longer tell who the pigs are. :)

[Mephisto]

Remember...the insurgency is in its last throes...and our President has a plan. Had one all along. He is a stead-fast visionary. Stay the course. There is no civil war. Iraq is better off without Saddam...if you repeat all of these in constant succession than the thousands of Shiites marching for Hezbollah and against America and Israel in the streets of Bahgdad (where we were welcomed as liberators after a cake-walk war) will simply go away.

Yes, and it's scary to think that the same crowd is willing to march us into Iran because they (once again) believe the Iranians will back a coup against their government . . . and, oh yeah, they're trying to get WMD.

It's Deja Vu all over again. ;)

[Pardalis]

Mephisto, who ever said that the death of Zarquawi would mean the end of the insurgency and would make the war against terrorism "almost won"?

(See the first paragraph of your OP)

[Tony]

I only have one question Mephisto. Why do you hate America so much?

[delphi_ote]

... as in the end of Orwell's 1984, I can no longer tell who the pigs are.
Perhaps you should think about this a bit more.

[Apollyon]

How much of the current violence is due to the insurgency? Have attacks against US troops fallen or risen since Zarqawi was killed?

Keep in mind that much of what we are seeing in Iraq now is sectarian violence, not the insurgency.

[headscratcher4]

Well we certainly can't claim ourselves protagonists any longer, not with secret prisons, torture and war atrocities. I'm sure both Bin Laden and Bush see themselves as the "good guys," but as in the end of Orwell's 1984, I can no longer tell who the pigs are. :)

More to the point, as at the end of Animal Farm, I have learned to love Big Brother.

[hgc]

So the readers/watchers of Fox News aren't terrorism experts.Not quite yet. They've just made it to the point of wiping their own bum. Terrorism expertise kicks in next week. Then comes walking on two legs.

:p

[BPSCG]

Not quite yet. They've just made it to the point of wiping their own bum. Terrorism expertise kicks in next week. Then comes walking on two legs.

:pOf course, then there are those who get their "news" from the New York Times and PBS. In another couple of millennia, they'll be at the point where some of them can crawl out of the water and survive for short periods on land.

At which point, the rest of us will kill them and serve them up as canapes.

[Hutch]

How much of the current violence is due to the insurgency? Have attacks against US troops fallen or risen since Zarqawi was killed?

Keep in mind that much of what we are seeing in Iraq now is sectarian violence, not the insurgency.

Well, Zarqauwi did target Shities too, IIRC, and did his bit to bring on near-Civil War conditions.

That noted, I tned to agree that Mephisto laid some pretty lame-(biblical beast of burden) evidence on us, heck one of the quotes pretty much backed him up!

But there doesn't seem to be an end--or even an end-point we can point at.

IMHO, we are one Beirut truck-bomb-type incident from getting serious about puling up stakes. We shall see.

[Mephisto]

IMHO, we are one Beirut truck-bomb-type incident from getting serious about puling up stakes. We shall see.

Ironically, we're going to be tied up in Beirut now as well. Here's to the 243 Marines that died the last time we were there.

P.S. You're right about one of the quotes supporting my viewpoint. There were actually several more, but I suspect they were Faux News trolls itching for an argument.

[Apollyon]

Well, Zarqauwi did target Shities too, IIRC, and did his bit to bring on near-Civil War conditions.

That noted, I tned to agree that Mephisto laid some pretty lame-(biblical beast of burden) evidence on us, heck one of the quotes pretty much backed him up!

But there doesn't seem to be an end--or even an end-point we can point at.

IMHO, we are one Beirut truck-bomb-type incident from getting serious about puling up stakes. We shall see.
It's all a matter of perspective and whether you want to call it manure or cow ****.

[Mephisto]

It's all a matter of perspective and whether you want to call it manure or cow ****.

A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. Let's face it, this war stinks!

[Apollyon]

A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. Let's face it, this war stinks!
All wars stink. There's no such thing as a "good" war. However, if you want to grow roses you have to fertilize. That's where the manure comes in.

[Pardalis]

Mephisto,

Mephisto, who ever said that the death of Zarquawi would mean the end of the insurgency and would make the war against terrorism "almost won"?

(See the first paragraph of your OP)

[Darth Rotor]

I love wartime nostalgia and the warm vibratey feeling it sends up through my guttywuts, so I thought I would bring up the optimism we had back when "terrorist mastermind" (who didn't know how to handle an American weapon) Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed. It was going to be the end-all to the insurgency in Iraq and was hailed as one of the biggest blows to Al Qaeda. Everyone wanted to believe that the war was almost won.


You will note that Zarqawi was on the "Must Kill This SOB list" starting about April 2004. If you didn't know that, you do now.

It took over two years to get a warhead on his forehead. In that time, his use of the internet and media to broadcast his various successes, and the fact that he was still alive, did wonders for his recruiting efforts. He also was not the only ******** on the block in Iraq. Muktar Al Sadr is all ********, and he's all Shia. In my opinion, he should have been whacked long ago. He wasn't, for some obscure political reason.

Your post whinges about selected Pollyanas who never understood what the heck was going on over there in the first place. The civil war, a multi faction "many versus many" dogfight, has been on since about July/August 2003. Al Douri was never caught (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/al-douri.htm), though he is either dead, or doing a nice job of playing possum.

Nice Straw Man, Mephisto.

Yor post also reminds me of someone standing on a street corner and screaming "Litter is bad!" :rolleyes: What a bold statement. :rolleyes:

DR

[fuelair]

Remember...the insurgency is in its last throes...and our President has a plan. .


Somethin' about bending over, takin' one for the team and Dick Cheney.

[Mephisto]

Yor post also reminds me of someone standing on a street corner and screaming "Litter is bad!" :rolleyes: What a bold statement. :rolleyes:

DR

Then you DO think the war is going better now that Zarqawi is dead.

[a_unique_person]

More to the point, as at the end of Animal Farm, I have learned to love Big Brother.

That was 1984.

[davefoc]

I think Mephisto's point is completely valid.

Lots of people made lots of very optimistic comments about the effect that Zarqawi's death was going to have. Many of those people made those comments based on comments made by Bushco.

It was exactly the same kind of optimistic commentary that had accompanied other milestones, for instance capture of Hussein, turning Iraq over to Iraqi civilian control, and the election.

The situation has not gotten better or has gotten worse after each of those events.

I think it is reasonable to draw one of two conclusions from those facts.
1. The main prognosticators of Bushco don't understand very well what is going on and are often fooled into an excessively optimistic view.

2. Bushco just makes pronouncements about what it hopes the situation is and isn't concerned with the relationship between their pronouncements and reality.

[a_unique_person]

Who ever said that? :confused:
Before your time, but there was a bit of cheering here along those lines.

[delphi_ote]

More to the point, as at the end of Animal Farm, I have learned to love Big Brother.
More importantly, you learned to win this thread. It's all over, folks. headscratcher4 is the champion.

:bigclap

[headscratcher4]

That was 1984.

are you sure ;)

[Mephisto]

I think Mephisto's point is completely valid.

Lots of people made lots of very optimistic comments about the effect that Zarqawi's death was going to have. Many of those people made those comments based on comments made by Bushco.

It was exactly the same kind of optimistic commentary that had accompanied other milestones, for instance capture of Hussein, turning Iraq over to Iraqi civilian control, and the election.

The situation has not gotten better or has gotten worse after each of those events.

I think it is reasonable to draw one of two conclusions from those facts.
1. The main prognosticators of Bushco don't understand very well what is going on and are often fooled into an excessively optimistic view.

2. Bushco just makes pronouncements about what it hopes the situation is and isn't concerned with the relationship between their pronouncements and reality.

Thank you Dave,

It seems to me that the optimism that we're SUPPOSED to feel at each and every "milestone" pointed at by the Bush administration should be just another exercise in skepticism. When nothing they have predicted about this war has come to fruition is added to the cost of both Iraqi lives and American lives as well as the monetary cost of this war - we SHOULD be asking why they are so consistently wrong.

The ante in this war has been raised so many times, I believe that anyone fooling themselves into believing that these incidents are actually any sort of positive turning points in this war is either just making excuses or refusing to see past the flags and crosses being waved in their face. :)