Anybody believe that Kennedy was shot by anyone other than Oswald?

[HeyLeroy]

Linkies fixed for post, above:

http://www.steelersfever.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4338.html

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06021/641975.stm

[Oliver]

You JFK-Fans will love this one:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5447834375998393826&q=Meet+The+Bush+Family

[pgwenthold]

Cyril Wecht is very famous for his "magic bullet demonstration" in which he uses a mock-up of the JFK limo and a laser to show that a single bullet could not have done all it is claimed to do.

Of course, for a medical examiner, Wecht did a really poor job. Most importantly, he never actually put any of the people in the car anywhere close to their correct position. He used a regular old convertable, instead of the modified one that JFK was in, so the passenger heights were all messed up. And then he had them all sitting directly in the passenger seats, whereas it is known they were offset significantly. Lastly, he had them all sitting fully erect and facing forward, with their hands resting on their knees. It had nothing to do with reality.

[firecoins]

There was a guy with an umbrella, a guy with a badge, a guy who came up and shot Kennedy from the gutter. There was even Jack Ruby. I guess it depends what you mean by "shot"

[Undesired Walrus]

Hey there. I admit I haven't read all this thread, but can anyone explain the entry and exit wounds palaza? I'm debating my housemate who believes this is 'proof' that JFK wasn't shot by one guy.

[Gravy]

This should do it. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/medical.htm

Psst: What's a palaza?

[Undesired Walrus]

Psst: What's a palaza?

Woops. I meant, palava.. I got confused with the place he was shot!

Thanks. So, I've tried to look for the bit about the tie 'deflecting' the bullet but cant find it yet.

[Gravy]

Woops. I meant, palava.. I got confused with the place he was shot!

Thanks. So, I've tried to look for the bit about the tie 'deflecting' the bullet but cant find it yet.
Yeah, JFK wasn't wearing his explosive-reactive cravat that day.



"Palaver," perhaps?

[Redtail]

Yeah, JFK wasn't wearing his explosive-reactive cravat that day.



"Palaver," perhaps?

... Now I have an image in my head of JFK running around like Austin Powers asking, "Do I make you Horny Baby!??!":eye-poppi

[CurtC]

Thanks. So, I've tried to look for the bit about the tie 'deflecting' the bullet but cant find it yet.
Tie deflecting the bullet? I'm curious - what did you hear about it? Was this something your housemate came up with, or was this your impression of the evidence?

I'm pretty familiar with the JFK evidence and conspiracies, and I've never come across this one.

[The Demon's Head]

A belief is entirely different from evidence, but conspiracy theorists would have you thinking otherwise.

[Undesired Walrus]

Tie deflecting the bullet? I'm curious - what did you hear about it? Was this something your housemate came up with, or was this your impression of the evidence?

I'm pretty familiar with the JFK evidence and conspiracies, and I've never come across this one.

I dunno. He just says that the tie deflected the bullet or something and that connolly was seated directly infront of kennedy. I've tried to show that it is quite clear he is seated to the left but he simply says "Your eyes work different to mine".

He's a nice guy though...:)

[ConspiRaider]

Woops. I meant, palava.. I got confused with the place he was shot!

Thanks. So, I've tried to look for the bit about the tie 'deflecting' the bullet but cant find it yet.
Oh, palava, of course! That makes so much more sense than palaza, I'm so embarrassed now. ;)

Does anyone really know what is palava?

My theory is, and has always been, that the graluptiva slightly obscured the spruhoof-arkporkeeple and that's why Oswald's first shot missed...

[Matthew Best]

Oh, palava, of course! That makes so much more sense than palaza, I'm so embarrassed now. ;)

Does anyone really know what is palava?

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/41/messages/496.html

[Gravy]

... Now I have an image in my head of JFK running around like Austin Powers asking, "Do I make you Horny Baby!??!":eye-poppiI believe that was Teddy's line, until the reply came "Glub, glub."

[SpitfireIX]

There was a guy with an umbrella, a guy with a badge, a guy who came up and shot Kennedy from the gutter. There was even Jack Ruby. I guess it depends what you mean by "shot"


KENNEDY SLAIN BY CIA,
MAFIA, CASTRO, LBJ,
TEAMSTERS, FREEMASONS
President Shot 129 Times from 43 Different Angles

:D

[ConspiRaider]

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/41/messages/496.html
Ah! Thanks for that, now I get it!

So, apparently JFK was actually a West African native who was shot by various Portugese traders? I wonder what he did to make them so cross?

[AgeGap]

At what distances were the shots fired?
I was speaking to a retired UK military marksman who claimed he could have made the shot. ( I mean in theory, he wasn't there at the time with Oswald and all the other shooters.) He could easily get a 5 inch grouping at 200 yards with 5 rounds.
Has anybody tried to duplicate the shots fired in a reliable fashion?

[SpitfireIX]

At what distances were the shots fired?
I was speaking to a retired UK military marksman who claimed he could have made the shot. ( I mean in theory, he wasn't there at the time with Oswald and all the other shooters.) He could easily get a 5 inch grouping at 200 yards with 5 rounds.
Has anybody tried to duplicate the shots fired in a reliable fashion?


Here is an article (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zirbel.txt) from John McAdams's web site discussing the Warren Commission tests on Oswald's rifle, and debunking some conspiracists' claims.

[CurtC]

The short answer is that the longest of the three shots was less than 90 yards.

By comparison, my friends who hunt sight-in their scopes at 300 yards, as a nice medium distance.

[Hellbound]

The short answer is that the longest of the three shots was less than 90 yards.

By comparison, my friends who hunt sight-in their scopes at 300 yards, as a nice medium distance.

In the military, on the rifle range, you have 4 seconds to engage a target at 100 yards with open sights. The target at that range is only a head and shoulders, as if the person were lying prone and looking up at you, not a full-torso sillouette (sp?).

For that matter, part of the range qualification includes targets at 300 yards, once again with open sights.

I see nothing particularly difficult about the targettig for this one. Even with a bolt action rifle and a (slow-) moving target, at that range it wouldn't be that difficult.

[Ranb]

At what distances were the shots fired?


As said above, the range was less than 90 yards for the third shot. At that short range with the target moving 5-10 mph at about 10-15 degrees away from the shooter, all Oswald had to do to get a good head shot was to aim at the right side of JFK's head. If at the time the scope mount was misaligned as it was found to be after the shooting, then all he had to do was hold on center instead of using hold-off.

I have an old piece of crap 6.5 mm Carcano of the same type and nearly the same configuration as the one Oswald owned. It is a bit different in that the scope mount is sturdier and I have a 4x-25mm tube scope instead of the 4x-18mm tube scope on the original. My barrel is so pitted and worn out that ammo which should shoot at 2100 fps only goes 1860 fps. I have to over load the cartridge to get up to 2000 fps.

Putting three rounds into an eight inch target at 100 yards in six seconds is not difficult. Since I start with the rifle loaded and aimed, I only have to cycle the bolt and reacquire the target twice with time starting at the first shot and ending with the third. Slow fire gives me 4 inch groups at 100 yards, good enough for any former Marine to take someone out at short range.

Ranb

[pgwenthold]

As said above, the range was less than 90 yards for the third shot. At that short range with the target moving 5-10 mph at about 10-15 degrees away from the shooter, all Oswald had to do to get a good head shot was to aim at the right side of JFK's head. If at the time the scope mount was misaligned as it was found to be after the shooting, then all he had to do was hold on center instead of using hold-off.


I know the scope was misaligned when they found the rifle, but how possible is it that the misalignment could have resulted from Oswald throwing the gun away as he left? It's not like he was going to set the gun down softly as he is trying to flee the 6th floor.

It always seemed to me to be a stretch to assume that the gunsights in the weapon when it was found were the same as they were when he fired, considering that it was tossed aside and could have been knocked around. OTOH, I don't know a lot about rifles so don't know how possible it could be under those circumstances. IOW, if you drop the rifle on the floor, can you knock the sights out of kilter?


I have an old piece of crap 6.5 mm Carcano of the same type and nearly the same configuration as the one Oswald owned. It is a bit different in that the scope mount is sturdier and I have a 4x-25mm tube scope instead of the 4x-18mm tube scope on the original. My barrel is so pitted and worn out that ammo which should shoot at 2100 fps only goes 1860 fps. I have to over load the cartridge to get up to 2000 fps.

Putting three rounds into an eight inch target at 100 yards in six seconds is not difficult. Since I start with the rifle loaded and aimed, I only have to cycle the bolt and reacquire the target twice with time starting at the first shot and ending with the third. Slow fire gives me 4 inch groups at 100 yards, good enough for any former Marine to take someone out at short range.

Ranb

And, of course, Oswald never got 4 inch groups. Who knows where the first one went, and the second was probably 6 inches below the third.

I have pointed out many times (and others have said it as well) that in fact Oswald's shots were NOT all that great. He only hit his target (assuming he was aiming for the head) in 1 out of 3 shots, all within 100 yds. Not quite a sharpshooter.

There is an interesting conceptual question, as well. Why did Oswald only take 3 shots? Of course, the answer is that 3 is how many he needed to carry out his task. Note that he had more rounds and could have in principle fired once (or even twice) more. So the question is not "could he have done it in 3 shots" but "could he have hit the target once in 4 (or 5) shots?" In fact, his performance is not inconsistent with him being even a fairly poor shot, for example, only able to hit an 6 inch diameter target once every 4 shots. Consider, if I flip two coins and call it a hit if both come up heads, I would expect that to happen 1 out of every 4 times I do it. However, that doesn't mean it is going to happen every 4th time. I just did 4 trials and they came up

TT
HH
TH
TH

Now, if I were to quit when I hit the target, it would have only taken two shots. However, just because I hit the target on my second shot doesn't mean that I am a good marksman, or any better than what I stipulated (1/4). It's just that I happened to hit early.

The fact that Oswald was able to hit the target in his third shot tells us very little about the intricacies of his shooting ability, outside of "capable." I see no evidence suggesting that it required a great marksman to carry out that feat.

[Drudgewire]

Several people, according to the WC report, said that they believed a shot had originated near the president's limo. One person even asserted that a shot had come from the president's limo.

Several people, according to the WC report, claimed to have smelled gunpowder smoke in the vicinity of the limo.
Of all the Kennedy CT theories, this (limo driver did it) was always my favorite for two reasons:

1. It was advanced by William Cooper, far and away the most fun of all conspiracy kooks, and the fact he was shot by Feds gives him sort of that mythical quality.

2. It led to a hilarious Bill Hicks joke. "It makes sense, because think about it... who ever looks at the limo driver when they watch the film? We're always paying attention to the same thing: Jackie's ass as she climbs into the back seat." :D

[Dr Harry Rein]

Of all the Kennedy CT theories, this (limo driver did it) was always my favorite for two reasons:

1. It was advanced by William Cooper, far and away the most fun of all conspiracy kooks, and the fact he was shot by Feds gives him sort of that mythical quality.

2. It led to a hilarious Bill Hicks joke. "It makes sense, because think about it... who ever looks at the limo driver when they watch the film? We're always paying attention to the same thing: Jackie's ass as she climbs into the back seat."

There were a couple of other real idiotic theories about shots and/or missiles being fired from close to the limo:

1. Someone had a theory that the shots were fired from the storm drain in the street as the limo passed. This, of course, would have resulted in an upward angle as the bullets hit JFK.

2. Another crackpot theory is that the guy opening and closing the umbrella in the Zapruder film was actually firing a dart at JFK, containing some sort of nerve agent that would temporarily paralyze the President. I guess the idea is that JFK would be easier to hit if he was sort of frozen there.

[Alferd_Packer]

Actually, and this is the god's honest truth, there are some people who think my wife's late uncle was involved in the "plot."

No, I'm not going to tell you who he was.

[SpitfireIX]

Actually, and this is the god's honest truth, there are some people who think my wife's late uncle was involved in the "plot."

No, I'm not going to tell you who he was.


Not E. Howard Hunt, I presume?

[Ranb]

I know the scope was misaligned when they found the rifle, but how possible is it that the misalignment could have resulted from Oswald throwing the gun away as he left?

There is an interesting conceptual question, as well. Why did Oswald only take 3 shots? Of course, the answer is that 3 is how many he needed to carry out his task.

From what I have read, when other Carcanos with a scope mounted were ordered from the same company, they all had a crooked mount that sometimes exceeded the scope's ability to adjust for it. It is likely if he threw it down behind the boxes where it was found, it could have thrown off any adjustments he made to it. It has happened to rifles I dropped.

Oswald only had 4 cartridges with him. The last one was chambered. I think he may not have had a shot as the limo driver slowed down then sped up after hearing the first shot.

If Oswald had planned better, he would have bought a rifle with cash over the counter, leaving no trace of his ownership. He would have also used gloves when in the snipers nest and remained in the building drinking his coke when the police entered to look around.

Ranb

[boloboffin]

I've lived in Dallas about a year now, but I finally made it to the Sixth Floor Museum last week. My grandmother was up from Alabama, and my mother and I took her there.

There was some things I'd never seen before (like the actual footage of Oswald getting shot and what a CF that was - can the Dallas police do anything right?), and being in the actual location, you can get a better mental map of the place.

Oswald's rifle was found between two stacks of boxes, close to the stairs. Both the "sniper's nest" and the staircase area have been recreated as closely as possible. It took a while for me to figure out where exactly the rifle was found. No, the museum didn't have a little notecard in the display saying "Right here, dummy." They had a picture of the rifle in place, and left it to the people to find it in the stack. Where Oswald put it, he had to have slid it along the floor as he was moving to the stairs. He had the whole morning to figure out what he was going to do, and arrange the sixth floor for his escape route. Hiding the rifle between two closely stacked rows of books was as good a place as any, and to do that quickly, the slide was necessary.

And that slide would have knocked any adjustments to the scope off.

There weren't too many crazies to deal with. One guy approached us with the little newpaper they pass out here. He tried to pass it off as a guide to the area, and then started in with the Hunt confession, and threw Woody Harrelson's dad into the mix. That was about it. I'll have to go back when I'm not dealing with family, so I can soak in more of the exhibits.

[CurtC]

There weren't too many crazies to deal with. One guy approached us with the little newpaper they pass out here. He tried to pass it off as a guide to the area, and then started in with the Hunt confession, and threw Woody Harrelson's dad into the mix. That was about it. I'll have to go back when I'm not dealing with family, so I can soak in more of the exhibits.
Unfortunately, even the guys who sell their crazy newspapers and such are not the crazies themselves, but just minimum wage bozos who are filling in for the crazies. They know by rote the stuff that's in the papers they sell, but are pretty much just like trained chickens. It's no fun at all to try to get into a discussion with them.

[Alferd_Packer]

Not E. Howard Hunt, I presume?

No, he was someone only the most die hard JFK CTer would recognize the name of.


Still, it was something my wife's family had to deal with when she was growing up.

[Thunder]

I have to say that if it turned out that JFK was indeed killed by a government conspiracy, I would not be that surprised.

And we all know who did it. It was the smoking man from X-Files, who also killed MLK and the first alien to land on Earth.