So what is it really....about these French?

[Elind]

Truth is I'm really confused, so I'm asking for some insight here even though I know there'll be some that ain't.

What is it with the French? Am I victim of propaganda news reporting or what?

First I don't quite understand why a Lebanon ceasfire resolution is specifically an issue between the French and the US, except possibly that only the French have been dumb enough (or clever enough) to suggest that they might get involved, unlike the rest of the world (read UN) that whimps out utterly.

Secondly, I don't understand why the French, being what they are other than really stupid, would allow the world to think they were going to back a rational resolution at the UN to stop the killing (i'm all in favor), then supposedly back out because all the (obvious) Arab supporters of Hezbullah are only interested in an Iraeli retreat (not withdrawal).

Are the French such morons that they didn't see that coming, or are they so unprincipled that they engineered it so as to make them look good with the fundies, and the US bad?

For what it's worth, I drink several bottles of wine a week. None of it has been French for several years (but a lot is Australian for the benefit of those who care ;))

Opinions anyone?

[BPSCG]

Truth is I'm really confused, so I'm asking for some insight here even though I know there'll be some that ain't.

What is it with the French? Am I victim of propaganda news reporting or what?

First I don't quite understand why a Lebanon ceasfire resolution is specifically an issue between the French and the US, except possibly that only the French have been dumb enough (or clever enough) to suggest that they might get involved, unlike the rest of the world (read UN) that whimps out utterly.

Secondly, I don't understand why the French, being what they are other than really stupid, would allow the world to think they were going to back a rational resolution at the UN to stop the killing (i'm all in favor), then supposedly back out because all the (obvious) Arab supporters of Hezbullah are only interested in an Iraeli retreat (not withdrawal).

Are the French such morons that they didn't see that coming, or are they so unprincipled that they engineered it so as to make them look good with the fundies, and the US bad?

For what it's worth, I drink several bottles of wine a week. None of it has been French for several years (but a lot is Australian for the benefit of those who care ;))

Opinions anyone?There are plenty of excellent California wines.

[Elind]

That too, the rest of the week.:D

[gumboot]

I believe the French have expressed a desire to lead the boosted UN force in southern Lebanon.

This is altogether fitting - France has contributed significantly to numerous UN missions. They are also one of the few active UN peace keeping nations with a significant armed forces that isn't tied up in Afghanistan, Iraq, or East Timor.

-Andrew

[Elind]

I believe the French have expressed a desire to lead the boosted UN force in southern Lebanon.

That was yesterday, or I wouldn't have bothered posting......

[Pardalis]

Are the French such morons that they didn't see that coming, or are they so unprincipled that they engineered it so as to make them look good with the fundies, and the US bad?

The last French/English war ended 200 years ago. Move on. :rolleyes:

Stop accusing the French without proof.

[gumboot]

That was yesterday, or I wouldn't have bothered posting......


It's standard practise for the UN to establish a mission that the host nation supports. It makes things a lot easier.

As things continue, the Lebanese government will realise their choice is to either sacrifice Hizbollah, or lose their entire country to civil war.

They will come around.

-Andrew

[Tony]

Truth is I'm really confused...

Yes, that is the truth, and all of us are becoming more and more aware of it as the days pass.

[Just thinking]

There are plenty of excellent California wines.

Yes indeed ... I was out that way a few years back and was upset to find a number of decent wines (http://www.gloriaferrer.com/) don't make it back east.

Pitty.

[Elind]

The last French/English war ended 200 years ago. Move on. :rolleyes:

Stop accusing the French without proof.
Why don't you read the news. I'm talking about what I hear today, not 200 years ago. What's the matter with you?

[Elind]

It's standard practise for the UN to establish a mission that the host nation supports. It makes things a lot easier.

As things continue, the Lebanese government will realise their choice is to either sacrifice Hizbollah, or lose their entire country to civil war.

They will come around.

-Andrew

You haven't been paying attention have you? It seems it's the French who are backing off because the Arabs don't want any furriners, or so it seems. That is the whole point of the post which you seem to have missed.

[Elind]

Yes, that is the truth, and all of us are becoming more and more aware of it as the days pass.

Speaking in the royal plural again are we? :D

[LeFevre]

France has a long history with Lebanon, going back to the Crusades IIRC; and more recently after WWI France got control of that area.

[gumboot]

You haven't been paying attention have you? It seems it's the French who are backing off because the Arabs don't want any furriners, or so it seems. That is the whole point of the post which you seem to have missed.


We must be watching different news sources...

At the UN, diplomats are attempting to reword the draft calling for a ceasefire, to take in Lebanese and Arab League demands for an immediate Israeli withdrawal.

On Wednesday differences surfaced again between France and the US - which co-sponsored the original draft - leading some diplomats to express concerns that diplomacy could collapse.

But the BBC's Bridget Kendall at UN headquarters says that there is now a mood of cautious optimism.

Correspondents say the members states are considering a French proposal to deploy Lebanese forces alongside the existing UN force, which would be strengthened, as the Israelis begin a phased withdrawal.

The US has yet to respond - so far it has insisted that any Israeli withdrawal can only follow the deployment of a new, robust multi-national force.

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4778591.stm)


Hence why I was confused. France and the US produced a draft proposal. Lebanon and the Arab League rejected it and offered their own. Now France has put forward a new proposal.

So far it is the US that have not responded. France still appears to be playing a central role.

-Andrew

[StewartP]

France has quite close business ties in Lebanon. When this malarky kicked off there were more than 30,000 French pasport holders there. Most are dual citizens. Many hundreds were evacuated to Malta.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/18/wmid218.xml

[CFLarsen]

Let's try a little game of "what if"....

Truth is I'm really confused, so I'm asking for some insight here even though I know there'll be some that ain't.

What is it with the Americans? Am I victim of propaganda news reporting or what?

First I don't quite understand why a Lebanon ceasfire resolution is specifically an issue between the French and the US, except possibly that only the US have been dumb enough (or clever enough) to suggest that they might get involved, unlike the rest of the world (read UN) that whimps out utterly.

Secondly, I don't understand why the Americans, being what they are other than really stupid, would allow the world to think they were going to back a rational resolution at the UN to stop the killing (i'm all in favor), then supposedly back out because all the (obvious) Arab supporters of Hezbullah are only interested in an Iraeli retreat (not withdrawal).

Are the Americans such morons that they didn't see that coming, or are they so unprincipled that they engineered it so as to make them look good with the fundies, and the French bad?

For what it's worth, I drink several bottles of wine a week. None of it has been American for several years (but a lot is Australian for the benefit of those who care ;))

Opinions anyone?

If you had posted that, would you have been lambasted for being anti-American?

[Elind]

Let's try a little game of "what if"....



If you had posted that, would you have been lambasted for being anti-American?
I wish I had a $ for every time that technique was used. Not bad the first time, but wears thin after a while, kind of like the "proportionate" or "equivalence" principle, as in "more of them than yours are being killed, you need to stop until they can have a chance to catch up". Everything is equally reversible in Denmark eh?

In this case I am commenting on the news I hear here, which seems to be different where you are.

What I am hearing is the French are backing off on their original generous offer of leading a "robust" force (yes, most Lebanese speak French, makes sense).

The reason they are backing off is because the Arabs all object. Surprise surprise!! The Arabs want the Israelis to withdraw and a return to the status quo. IE an inneffectual Lebanese force supported by an inneffectual UN force (same old observers as before).

My point is that any fool could have seen that coming, the French better than most. So what is their game here? Why start off with a proposal they MUST have known they were going to back off on, perhaps to gain points with their Arab "friends"?

[Just thinking]

... So what is their game here? Why start off with a proposal they MUST have known they were going to back off on, perhaps to gain points with their Arab "friends"?

Surprise surprise!! ;)

[gumboot]

My point is that any fool could have seen that coming, the French better than most. So what is their game here? Why start off with a proposal they MUST have known they were going to back off on, perhaps to gain points with their Arab "friends"?


I think you're totally misreading what happened.

Nothing ever works the first time, but you always put your best proposal forward first. That's how negotiations work. France and the US put forward their ideal proposal, Lebanon and the Arab League demanded changes, so they adjusted the proposal (to what I feel is a much better balance).

I simply cannot see any way in which this could be construed as France "backing off".

Latest Developments:

A spokeswoman for British Prime Minister Tony Blair said agreement on a text was possible within 24 hours.

This was echoed by the two sponsors of a draft, the US and France.

The possible deal is thought to centre on sending Lebanese troops to the border with a strengthened UN force, while Israel starts a phrased pullout.

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4782235.stm)

-Andrew

[Elind]

Surprised that mostly what I get is flack for being mean about the French.:(

Today I hear they might be coming back with something. We will see.

[Elind]

I think you're totally misreading what happened.

Nothing ever works the first time, but you always put your best proposal forward first. That's how negotiations work. France and the US put forward their ideal proposal, Lebanon and the Arab League demanded changes, so they adjusted the proposal (to what I feel is a much better balance).

I simply cannot see any way in which this could be construed as France "backing off".

Latest Developments:



-Andrew

I don't see any difference between what you reference and what was first proposed, except that it may now appear that the Arabs have gained something, at least to the stupider ones. Hey, maybe that is clever maneouvering but I have my doubts.

Also, I wouldn't normally bother to comment on obvious typos, but did the BBC really write "phrased" withdrawal?:boggled:

[gumboot]

I don't see any difference between what you reference and what was first proposed, except that it may now appear that the Arabs have gained something, at least to the stupider ones. Hey, maybe that is clever maneouvering but I have my doubts.

Also, I wouldn't normally bother to comment on obvious typos, but did the BBC really write "phrased" withdrawal?:boggled:


Yes, they did. Well spotted. :p I guess their spell-checker is broken.

I thought the original proposal didn't involve Lebanon but involved a very large UN contingent, and only required Israeli withdrawal after the UN were in situ.

I could be wrong though...

:)

-Andrew

[Elind]

I thought the original proposal didn't involve Lebanon but involved a very large UN contingent, and only required Israeli withdrawal after the UN were in situ.

I could be wrong though...

:)

-Andrew

Clearly any Israeli withdrawal has to be phased in some way. The goal has always been to have Lebanese troops there. The goal is still to have more than violation counters from the UN.

I see little difference, but perhaps there is method in this bickering. By the time they come back to the original proposal the Arabs can go back to their flock and say they gained something.

[Pardalis]

Surprised that mostly what I get is flack for being mean about the French.:(


Well, everytime the French are mentionned here it's always derogatory. It's getting tiresome.

And when you accuse a nation of conniving, you have to bring some proof.

they so unprincipled that they engineered it so as to make them look good with the fundies, and the US bad?

[Elind]

Well, everytime the French are mentionned here it's always derogatory. It's getting tiresome.


What do your tiresome feelings have to do with reality?

The French have been the odd man out since DeGaule. Ask the Canadians if you don't believe me.

They are second only to the Russians in terms of playing power games with the US, and it's not on higher principles. That applies to Nato, to Iraq, when they gave moral comfort to Saddam and, IMHO encouraged him to resist the UN and allow GWB to go to war. This week I hear they commented that Iran was a "stabilizing" force in the Middle East! Talk of suck up.:boggled:

I wouldn't trust the French with anything significant if their interests could be served by embarrasing the US in any way.

Sorry you don't like that and find it tiresome, but you aren't forced to comment.

[Pardalis]

The French have been the odd man out since DeGaule.

Funny, the rest of the world seems to think the same thing of the US, since Bush Jr... :rolleyes:

[fuelair]

For what it's worth, I drink several bottles of wine a week. None of it has been French for several years (but a lot is Australian for the benefit of those who care ;))

Opinions anyone?

Many German whites are excellent - if you can get it, Trochenbeerenausleses
are to die for (better than Eiswein for my palate)!!

[Elind]

Funny, the rest of the world seems to think the same thing of the US, since Bush Jr... :rolleyes:

Jealousy. That's been around much longer than GWB, trust me.