Medicos, chemists, herpitologists: pit viper venom and stun-guns

[CaveDave]

I recently heard a snake expert-handler pooh-pooh the myth of stun-guns, cattle-prods, and batteries being effective treatments for North American Pit Viper venom (rattlesnake, copperhead, and water-moccasin). These deliver, AIUI, a hemolytic protein containing Copper, and folklore has it that electric current dissociates this molecule, rendering it harmless. His arguement was that all the literature on the subject said NO, but he did not give references (It was a public show, not a scientific paper:) )

I know that most bites are of sub-lethal envenomation, and that healthy mammals of larger size will survive the venom if shock (blood pressure drop, not electric:D ) and infection can be avoided.

The other day, an older man claimed that he knows that e-current will neutralize venom because his buddy carries a cattle-prod and zaps his hunting dog every time it is bitten, and it is still alive!:boggled: :eye-poppi

The question is, is there any possible mechanism for the electric current to chemically alter to an inert state, venom already in the tissues (short of denaturing the tissue to necrosis)?

I need an arguement this ol' timer will accept!

Cheers,
Dave

[Boo]

I've seen more then a few snakebites........

Can't recall anyone suggesting we hook them up to electricity.


Short answer to this argument is Bull$h!t.




Boo

[anor277]

.................................................. ....These deliver, AIUI, a hemolytic protein containing Copper, and folklore has it that electric current dissociates this molecule, rendering it harmless. His arguement was that all the literature on the subject said NO, but he did not give references (It was a public show, not a scientific paper:) )

I know that most bites are of sub-lethal envenomation, and that healthy mammals of larger size will survive the venom if shock (blood pressure drop, not electric:D ) and infection can be avoided.

The other day, an older man claimed that he knows that e-current will neutralize venom because his buddy carries a cattle-prod and zaps his hunting dog every time it is bitten, and it is still alive!:boggled: :eye-poppi

The question is, is there any possible mechanism for the electric current to chemically alter to an inert state, venom already in the tissues ............

Cheers,
Dave

If an electric shock disrupts a molecular complex of copper, why should it not also disrupt haemoglobin, already in the blood, and a molecular complex of iron? Conductivity is a bulk property of metals in bands and is not associated with isolated atoms of iron and copper etc., which are only present in solution because they are bound to protein residues. Electric current can reduce (i.e. add electrons) to certain metals in solution (the basis of wet cell batteries) but the claim that a jab with a cattle prod can make injected venom inert seems highly dubious.

Interestingly, I've heard that the treatment for white-tailed spider bites (an Australian spider whose venom can cause such excruciating pain and necrosis that victims have begged that the bitten limb be amputated) was to place the patient in a hyperbaric chamber under 4-5 atmospheres of oxygen (I don't know how this works, does it oxidize the venom?).

edited for format

[Boo]

Interestingly, I've heard that the treatment for white-tailed spider bites (an Australian spider whose venom can cause such excruciating pain and necrosis that victims have begged that the bitten limb be amputated) was to place the patient in a hyperbaric chamber under 4-5 atmospheres of oxygen (I don't know how this works, does it oxidize the venom?).

edited for format


Hyperbaric increases oxygenation of tissues thus reducing necrosis, among other benefits. It does not actually *do* anyhting to the venom. It's standard wound treatment.



Boo

[anor277]

Trying not to derail the thread....I did a bit of google searcing and it may be that white-tailed spiders may have received a bit of bad press, see

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/171_2_190799/white/white.html

[casebro]

The theory was tested in a study advanced by the stun gun compana. Sorry, BS. Seems enough rattlers make dry bites that confuse the issue. Live animal testing refuted the theory. 5-10 years ago. Not to say that hitting the dog with 40,000 volts won't teach him to shy away from snakes though...

[CaveDave]

If an electric shock disrupts a molecular complex of copper, why should it not also disrupt haemoglobin, already in the blood, and a molecular complex of iron? Conductivity is a bulk property of metals in bands and is not associated with isolated atoms of iron and copper etc., which are only present in solution because they are bound to protein residues. Electric current can reduce (i.e. add electrons) to certain metals in solution (the basis of wet cell batteries) but the claim that a jab with a cattle prod can make injected venom inert seems highly dubious.
Just as I understood it. Where do these folks come up with their ideas? Incomplete understanding of science?

Interestingly, I've heard that the treatment for white-tailed spider bites (an Australian spider whose venom can cause such excruciating pain and necrosis that victims have begged that the bitten limb be amputated) was to place the patient in a hyperbaric chamber under 4-5 atmospheres of oxygen (I don't know how this works, does it oxidize the venom?).
Now I wonder how they discovered that?

Cheers,
Dave

ETA: well, Boo says it's true, and I trust her knowlege.:)

[CaveDave]

Trying not to derail the thread....I did a bit of google searcing and it may be that white-tailed spiders may have received a bit of bad press, see

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/171_2_190799/white/white.html
Interesting, blame the wrong critter just because it was found nearby...

Also this from that link:
Experience there does suggest that early surgical debridement may extend the lesion, that early skin grafting usually fails, that antibiotics are unhelpful unless there is a clearly identified and targeted secondary infection and that no specific therapy is helpful, with the possible exception of hyperbaric oxygen therapy.2 This treatment for necrotising arachnidism is being tried in a number of hyperbaric units around Australia, with mixed but encouraging success.11 It is probably time to formalise this by running a multicentre trial to establish the validity and indications for this form of treatment.{Added Bolding}
Seems to confirm Boo's testimony.

casebro wrote The theory was tested in a study advanced by the stun gun compana. Sorry, BS. Seems enough rattlers make dry bites that confuse the issue. Live animal testing refuted the theory. 5-10 years ago. Not to say that hitting the dog with 40,000 volts won't teach him to shy away from snakes though...
Dry bites... Yeah I suspected that was likely.

From the Ol' man's story, though, it sounds like the dog in question was not movin' up the learnin' curve too fast.:D :D

Thanks all and cheers,
Dave