Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If anybody still wants to debate Val's Flight 93 plume photo, come on over to LC ...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?act=idx


I'm done with this forum with useless moderators.

*********** hypocrit.

[Buckwheatjones]

If anybody still wants to debate Val's Flight 93 plume photo, come on over to LC ...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?act=idx


I'm done with this forum with useless moderators.

No. All the homework has been written down here and there's no point in everyone doing it over again on 'your' site just to get the same stonewalling and lame arguments from you. You go and peddle your stuff to those folks over there. From the lack of critical thinking I saw when I visited last night, I'm sure those people will be just the sort that will buy your ***** hook, line and sinker. Then you can go back to feeling warm and fuzzy inside as you surround yourself with a cavalcade of idiots.

[R.Mackey]

If anybody still wants to debate Val's Flight 93 plume photo, come on over to LC ...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?act=idx

I'm done with this forum with useless moderators.
Yes, please return to your safe haven with its "useful" moderators. The level of debate there may have sunk to your comfort zone by now.

Pity you couldn't understand anything I tried to explain to you. I did my best to be thorough, and to keep it at no higher than a second-grade level. Of course, if you really had any interest in research or learning, you could have asked me to clarify. Ah well, your loss.

[Belz...]

If anybody still wants to debate Val's Flight 93 plume photo, come on over to LC ...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?act=idx

I'm done with this forum with useless moderators.

Useless as in "they don't ban dissenting views" ?

[MikeW]

This happened very recently:

On August 13, 2006, at 1820 coordinated universal time, a Lockheed L-100-30, 7T-VHG, was destroyed when it collided with terrain following a high-rate descent from 24,000 feet in Piacenza, Italy. The pilot, copilot, and flight engineer were fatally injured. The cargo flight departed Algiers Airport (DAAG), Algiers, Algeria, and was destined for Frankfurt Airport (EDDF), Frankfurt, Germany.

According to the Agenzia Nazionale per la Sicurrezza del Volo (ANSV), the flight crew was in contact with Milan air traffic control personnel when the airplane departed cruise flight at 24,000 feet. Contact with air traffic control was lost at 13,500 feet. The airplane continued its high-rate descent until it collided with terrain.
A fairly large plane. A rapid descent. And someone's just sent me a picture of what they saw next.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_93484505931988e19.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1428)

Looks familiar, doesn't it?

[Bell]

This happened very recently:


A fairly large plane. A rapid descent. And someone's just sent me a picture of what they saw next.

(picture removed, as I can't post links yet)

Looks familiar, doesn't it?

I find it very suspicious that the picture is so blury. I guess that would make Photoshopping in the cloud would be more easy [/sarcasm]

[CurtC]

Obviously, the NWO faked this new crash and detonated ordance for the smoke plume, because Killtown was getting too close to the Truth.

[Buckwheatjones]

That cloud looks too big.....just....too big.

[gumboot]

For anyone who is interested in comparisons, the L-100 is a civilian variant of the C-130 Hercules.

C-130:
Length: 29.8m
Wingspan: 40.5m
Empty: 34,927kg
Max take-off: 70,307kg
Fuel: 28,540kg
Max Speed: 329 Kt
Cruise: 300 Kt

Boeing 757:
Length: 47.32m
Wingspan: 38.05m
Empty: 57,180kg
Max take-off: 115,680kg
Fuel: 43,490 litres
Max Speed: ??? Kt
Cruise: Mach 0.8

I think it's safe to say if a C-130 can make that sort of bang, a 757 can.

-Andrew

[Hellbound]

Hey MikeW:

Great shot :) Find any pictures of the impact site/crater for comparison?

[MikeW]

Hey MikeW:

Great shot :) Find any pictures of the impact site/crater for comparison?
I did think that might be interesting, but couldn't see any. I'll ask my source.

[Dr Richard]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has continued to post here.

Shame Killtown ran away, and even worse is that he does not appear to think he has been refuted.

Oh well, and good work guys...

[Killtown]

largest photo of Val's pic found so far...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8399&view=findpost&p=7255655

[Dog Town]

Noooooooo!
Run away....run away.....!

[defaultdotxbe]

largest photo of Val's pic found so far...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8399&view=findpost&p=7255655

im pretty sure a reproduction that large is in violation of vals copyright

[Bell]

im pretty sure a reproduction that large is in violation of vals copyright

I'm pretty sure a reproduction of KKKilltown is in violation of every law.

By the way KKKilltown, did you see this pict00r???

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/888645023818899cd.jpg

[Mercutio]

largest photo of Val's pic found so far...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8399&view=findpost&p=7255655

Wow...the tail of the cloud on that pic is much more visible!

Looking at that one, do you still think your "munitions" silliness holds any water? It seems to me that even if you don't like the actual math, the "it looks like it to me" analysis is very different for that photo than for the ones in your blog.

[R.Mackey]

largest photo of Val's pic found so far...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8399&view=findpost&p=7255655
I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind you of this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1860144#post1860144).

Get to it, Stalltown.

[Pardalis]

bump

[Bell]

*dump*

...

Mmm, doesn't work.

[alexi_drago]

posted by DavidJames 13 aug 2006
1) Welcome Killtown. I guess since most of the skeptics have been banned at Loose Change, it gets kind of boring being able to converse with only believers. You should encounter no such paranoia here.

posted by killtown 13 aug 2006
1) Yeah, it's too bad most skeptics don't know how to behave themselves during a debate.

posted by killtown 22 aug 2006
Yep, they canned me. The admins over there are podders apparantely. I'm a threat to their cash-cow pod theory.


Yeah, it's too bad most podder skeptics don't know how to behave themselves during a debate.

[Killtown]

They closed the thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65653


Any reasons?

[CptColumbo]

They closed the thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65653


Any reasons?

It's in the second to last post on the thread. Read it carefully.
Specifically:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1986131&postcount=190

[Killtown]

What were my "unsubstantiated allegations"?

[Dog Town]

They closed the thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65653


Any reasons?

Here ya go!
Posted by Darat:
I am closing this thread whilst I seek some advice regarding the unsubstantiated allegations made by Killtown. The subject is also "out of bounds" for the time being and any attempt to continue the discussion in other threads will result in further action including suspension or banning.

I will try to get back to you all as quickly as possible.

Thank-you for your co-operation.



ETA: Oops Capt beat me!

[Bell]

What were my "unsubstantiated allegations"?

You should contact Darat by PM over this.

[CptColumbo]

What were my "unsubstantiated allegations"?

Did you read it carefully?

Especially the second sentence?

I don't think you did.

[Killtown]

Did you read it carefully?

Especially the second sentence?

I don't think you did.
Oh, I'm gagged from talking about that for the time being. Sorry, didn't know JREF was into gagging.

[CptColumbo]

Oh, I'm gagged from talking about that for the time being. Sorry, didn't know JREF was into gagging.

Threads about forum management are here:http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=19

All specific questions should be directed by PM to a mod or admin.

[Pardalis]

I bumped this thread so that it wouldn't disappear into oblivion. I get the feeling this thread is a goldmine of unsubstantiated accusations and slander against Val.

[DavidJames]

Oh, I'm gagged from talking about that for the time being. Sorry, didn't know JREF was into gagging.Here's the deal killtown. Stop being a coward. If you've got a claim of wrongdoing, of anything illegal, stop being a sniveling coward and go to the police or file a civil lawsuit. Posting your BS on Internet forums instead shows me you are a coward who is afraid having himself exposed as a fraud.

Prove me wrong, coward, put up or STFU.

[Killtown]

I get the feeling this thread is a goldmine of unsubstantiated accusations and slander against Val.
Such as?

[Killtown]

Here's the deal killtown. Stop being a coward. If you've got a claim of wrongdoing, of anything illegal, stop being a sniveling coward and go to the police or file a civil lawsuit. Posting your BS on Internet forums instead shows me you are a coward who is afraid having himself exposed as a fraud.

Prove me wrong, coward, put up or STFU.
Which police should I forward it to?

[DavidJames]

Which police should I forward it to?
Take your pick.

Stop being a coward. If you've got a claim of wrongdoing, of anything illegal, stop being a sniveling coward and go to the police or file a civil lawsuit. Posting your BS on Internet forums instead shows me you are a coward who is afraid having himself exposed as a fraud.

Prove me wrong, coward, put up or STFU.

[R.Mackey]

Killtown, we have been asked by moderator Darat to discontinue this discussion (seen here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1986131#post1986131)). I don't know if you're baiting me or what, but this is clearly a direct violation of his request.

To everyone, we need to drop this for now. I will not respond further until the matter is resolved. Thanks!

[Darat]

As I stated very clearly in my other warning this subject is out of bounds for the time being. Since Killtown decided to ignore my warning he is at least suspended for the time being. I will consider whether he will be re-instated or banned alongside considerations of what to do about his various unsubstantiated allegations. (I have also deleted his last repsonse in this thread.)

[CurtC]

It's just worth noting that in this forum, reasons for a thread being suspended are clearly communicated, along with open communication of suspensions, and lots of careful hand-wringing over possible bans. Kind of sets a good example, doesn't it?

[Hutch]

Killtown, we have been asked by moderator Darat to discontinue this discussion (seen here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1986131#post1986131)). I don't know if you're baiting me or what, but this is clearly a direct violation of her request.

Umm, Mack, don't know how to break it to you, but Darat is a Guy...:eek: :D

[R.Mackey]

Umm, Mack, don't know how to break it to you, but Darat is a Guy...:eek: :D

Fixed.

In an attempt to foster a more equalitarian society, I use "his" and "her" interchangably in indeterminate situations. No disrespect was intended.

[CurtC]

In an attempt to foster a more equalitarian society, I use "his" and "her" interchangably in indeterminate situations. No disrespect was intended.
No problemo, honey.

[gtc]

Fixed.

In an attempt to foster a more equalitarian society, I use "his" and "her" interchangably in indeterminate situations. No disrespect was intended.

A science fiction writer I like uses ve, vis and ver for the gender non-specific pronouns.

As in:

Ve is going over there to speak to ver about vis computer.

[Mince]

I thought the plane burrowed itself all the way underground???

Kill;

Why do you seem to believe all of the eyewitnesses who agree with your spurious theory and dismiss all of those who don't?

[qarnos]

A science fiction writer I like uses ve, vis and ver for the gender non-specific pronouns.

As in:

Ve is going over there to speak to ver about vis computer.

Are they on board a Nuclear Wessel?

[gtc]

Are they on board a Nuclear Wessel?

No, Greg Egan's novel Distress. He may have borrowed the term.

[CurtC]

Not wanting to continue the discussion here, but this thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=16341) at the LC Forum is entertaining.

[DavidJames]

Not wanting to continue the discussion here, but this thread (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=16341) at the LC Forum is entertaining.can you post the location. For some reason my proxy can't find it.

[CurtC]

The LC Lounge -> Someone Buy This Camera For Experiment?, HP PhotoSmart 315

OP by Killtown

[DavidJames]

The LC Lounge -> Someone Buy This Camera For Experiment?, HP PhotoSmart 315

OP by KilltownThanks - I need to figure out my proxy, it can't seem to hit the threads directly, only the main forum page.

Yeah, great thread. killtown at his finest :D

[Dog Town]

Would this be something you'd be interested in?well, Having selected a picture from my library and entered into the Editting features of this program, I see it can do the following:

Rotate the picture left
Rotate the picture right
Refect (creates a mirror image)
red eye /pet eye removal
Image cropping
Color effects (color tinting):
B&W effect
Aqua effect
Lighting filters:
Adadptive lighting
Cooler lighting
Warmer lighting
Enhancement options:
restore faded color
Noise reduction (smooths speckled areas)
Improve quality of low resolution photo


The plug-ins available are only for putting the images on a dvd, stuff like that. There is some stuff for making album pages, sharing photos online, etc.


Speaking as someone who has been doing a great deal of image manipulation in the last 2 weeks (making special effects for a movie) I do not see any feature of this software that would allow someone to 'add' anything to their photos, or even manipulate their photo to any degree higher than rudimentary enhancement. No alpha channels, no layering, no brushes or hand altering effects, no real editting or altering of a photo whatsoever can be achieved with this program.


From above mentioned thread, by Hotdogbun@ LC.

[Arus808]

i love how they keep on saying its a faked pic, but if any of them bothered to FREAKING take the image into photoshop, you could clearly see that it isn't.

I've been working with Photoshop since version 2.0. I've studied every "chop" made, even at that worth100 site that holds those chop contests. You can see, if they bothered to check, that many chops leave "fragments" behind and alterations. That photo is not chopped in anyway.

[CurtC]

Hotdogbun over at LC keeps saying to Killtown that he doesn't think the image is faked. Killtown is barely able to contain himself, as he was doing over here. Also, Hotdogbun is a moderator at the LC Forum. Seems capable of rational thought, at least in one area. Maybe we should pursue him.

[Killtown]

Question for moderators, is it forbidden to debate over Val McClatchey's "End of Serenity" photo if assuming it's real and she is not implicated in any sinister plot?

[Bell]

Killtown, ask the mods to close this thread as well.

[Killtown]

Killtown, ask the mods to close this thread as well.
Why?

[Bell]

Why?

Why not?

[Killtown]

So moderators, it's ok to debate over Val McClatchey's "End of Serenity" photo if assuming it's real and she is not implicated in any sinister plot?

[Arus808]

there's nothing to debate on that photo. its real and she isn't in on any "sinister" plot. YOU have caused this woman a great deal of misery and problems, for which she did not ask for. YOUr persecution of her is wholy without merit, vulgar, and immoral. YOU owe her a public apology for the aggravation you have caused her; I bet now, she wished she had never taken that picture that day.

[Bell]

Killtown, ask the mods to close this thread as well.

This thread has run his course and is gaining you nothing. So it would only be logical to ask it to be closed. Just like your feeble Reagon thread.

[Killtown]

I'm going to PM the mods about this thread.

[Bell]

I'm going to PM the mods about this thread.

Yes, ask them to close it.

[Killtown]

Yes, because I'm sure you guys don't want threads to show how ridiculous your "plume grew to 7 football fields wide" theory is!

[Anti-sophist]

Yes, because I'm sure you guys don't want threads to show how ridiculous your "plume grew to 7 football fields wide" theory is!


How have you proven that a plume can't grow 7 football fields wide?

[Killtown]

How have you proven that a plume can't grow 7 football fields wide?
A plume, or the plume?

[Anti-sophist]

A plume, or the plume?

The plume. I've looked at this for a grand total of 0 seconds, but even I accept your conclusion that the plume was 7 football fields wide, why am I to believe that is impossible?

[Killtown]

The plume. I've looked at this for a grand total of 0 seconds, but even I accept your conclusion that the plume was 7 football fields wide, why am I to believe that is impossible?
It's my conclusion the plume would have to be that big if it originated anywhere near the crater. Is it impossible to get? Based on the official story (plane burrowed underground with 5,500 gal of fuel and didn't burn grass around the crater), I conclude yes.

[Anti-sophist]

Based on the official story (plane burrowed underground with 5,500 gal of fuel and didn't burn grass around the crater), I conclude yes.

Based on what evidence do you conclude yes?

[Matthew Best]

Exactly how big do you think it could have got, and why?

[Killtown]

Based on what evidence do you conclude yes?
See my Flight 93 photo blog below.

[Anti-sophist]

I see nothing in your blog that concludes that a 700 yard plume, in diameter, is impossible. I see nothing that says a 7 mile plume, in fact, is impossible.

Do you have any analysis to show that the plume that you claim is shown in that photo is impossible?

[Killtown]

Do you have any analysis to show that the plume that you claim is shown in that photo is impossible?
Yes, see "photo analyis" blogpost in my blog.

[Anti-sophist]

There are two cases of "photo analysis" on that link, thanks to control-F. The title of the blog, and the link that goes back to the same page.

Maybe you need to be more specific.

[Killtown]

There are two cases of "photo analysis" on that link, thanks to control-F. The title of the blog, and the link that goes back to the same page.

Maybe you need to be more specific.
http://flight93photo.blogspot.com/2006/07/plume-analysis.html

[Matthew Best]

Where on that page do you say how big the plume should have been? And how big should it have been?

[Anti-sophist]

Ok, I found it.


On this last photo analysis, I included two equally sized explosions (orange) that I generously estimated that would have come from the crash scene area (based from the distance from the crate to the outer most part of the burnt forest section


Why would you assume the diameter of the smoke cloud was confined by the diameter of the wreckage/fire?

[R.Mackey]

Before you get sucked into this 71-page black hole of ignorance and cyber-stalking, you should know something about Killtown's level of scientific understanding.

The best example is here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1859207#post1859207), back on Page 31. Here and in the following posts, Killtown tries to add 580 MPH to 125 feet, getting 705 feet, and doesn't understand why that won't work. Even after having it patiently explained to him.

Needless to say, some remedial arithmetic will be required before Killtown is ready to handle gas dynamics and thermodynamics.

Nonetheless, this staggering, almost inconceivable lack of ability has not deterred him from publicly accusing Ms. Val McClatchey, the photographer of the Flight 93 remains, along with publishing her personal and financial information, while he himself remains "safely" behind the shield of the Internet. Despite his own promise that he would apologize to her if he could not prove his point.

I also note the moderators have already looked into this matter, suspending Killtown the last time he came by here on the basis of his libelous posts. I apologize to the forum community if I am exacerbating this ongoing situation, just trying to bring you up to date.

[Anti-sophist]

I'm guessing it's already been explained to him that his width calculations for the plume actually line up pretty perfectly with the lower "pre-diffusion" part of the mushroom cloud seen in the photo, then?

[R.Mackey]

I'm guessing it's already been explained to him that his width calculations for the plume actually line up pretty perfectly with the lower "pre-diffusion" part of the mushroom cloud seen in the photo, then?
Yup.

One poster went as far as to contact Professor Joe Shepherd at GALCIT, a man I once studied under, and one of the world's foremost authorities on combustion and fluid mixing. His response was that nobody could conclude on the basis of the photographic evidence that it was not from Flight 93.

On one hand, a Caltech professor, expert in his field. On the other, Killtown, can't even add. We report, you decide.

[Bell]

I'm guessing it's already been explained to him that his width calculations for the plume actually line up pretty perfectly with the lower "pre-diffusion" part of the mushroom cloud seen in the photo, then?

Yeah, 450 pixels + Boeing 757 = 1207 feet wide plume.
Or something.

[Killtown]

Ok, I found it.

Why would you assume the diameter of the smoke cloud was confined by the diameter of the wreckage/fire?
edjamacated guess. and observing other plane crashes.

[Killtown]

Before you get sucked into this 71-page black hole of ignorance and cyber-stalking, you should know something about Killtown's level of scientific understanding.

The best example is here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1859207#post1859207), back on Page 31. Here and in the following posts, Killtown tries to add 580 MPH to 125 feet, getting 705 feet, and doesn't understand why that won't work. Even after having it patiently explained to him.

Needless to say, some remedial arithmetic will be required before Killtown is ready to handle gas dynamics and thermodynamics.

Nonetheless, this staggering, almost inconceivable lack of ability has not deterred him from publicly accusing Ms. Val McClatchey, the photographer of the Flight 93 remains, along with publishing her personal and financial information, while he himself remains "safely" behind the shield of the Internet. Despite his own promise that he would apologize to her if he could not prove his point.

I also note the moderators have already looked into this matter, suspending Killtown the last time he came by here on the basis of his libelous posts. I apologize to the forum community if I am exacerbating this ongoing situation, just trying to bring you up to date.

Lies, lies, and more lies.

[Bell]

Lies, lies, and more lies.

That the best rebutal of Mackey's post?

[CurtC]

I see nothing in your blog that concludes that a 700 yard plume, in diameter, is impossible. I see nothing that says a 7 mile plume, in fact, is impossible.

Do you have any analysis to show that the plume that you claim is shown in that photo is impossible?
Apparently you haven't read this thread. It consists, pretty much exactly, of us asking this very question and Killtown dodging it, for 70 pages.

[Anti-sophist]

edjamacated guess. and observing other plane crashes.

How many of these other plane crashes that you observed have 575mph worth of momentum and kinetic energy directed directly into the ground? Do you feel it's fair to compare plane crashes with orders of magnitude less kinetic energy and momentum directed into the ground when examining "smoke plume spread"?

[Killtown]

That the best rebutal of Mackey's post?
Funny, I've seen MUCH worse rebuttals from you JREFers and you never seem to complain about those. Biased?

[qarnos]

Funny, I've seen MUCH worse rebuttals from you JREFers and you never seem to complain about those. Biased?

Such as...?

[Bell]

Funny, I've seen MUCH worse rebuttals from you JREFers and you never seem to complain about those. Biased?

Yes, very much. That's the advantage of working for the NWO.

[Anti-sophist]

Apparently you haven't read this thread. It consists, pretty much exactly, of us asking this very question and Killtown dodging it, for 70 pages.

No, I have, actually. But I really want to try... maybe I'm special...

[Killtown]

How many of these other plane crashes that you observed have 575mph worth of momentum and kinetic energy directed directly into the ground? Do you feel it's fair to compare plane crashes with orders of magnitude less kinetic energy and momentum directed into the ground when examining "smoke plume spread"?
Who says 93 crashed at going that speed again?

Yes. Do you not?

[R.Mackey]

Lies, lies, and more lies.
How can I have lied, Killtown?

I linked the very post where you made that mistake. Just a few posts later, I ask whether you understand why you can't add a speed to a length, and you say "no."

It's all in this thread, black and white, clear as crystal.

What's also clear is who is lying. I'll give you two guesses.

[Anti-sophist]

Do you feel it's fair to compare plane crashes with orders of magnitude less kinetic energy and momentum directed into the ground when examining "smoke plume spread"?



Yes. Do you not?

No, I do not. Things that have 10x as much energy tend to behave differently. Feel free to drop an egg from an inch off a table, and then 10 inches. You'll see the difference is remarkable.

[Killtown]

How can I have lied, Killtown?

I linked the very post where you made that mistake. Just a few posts later, I ask whether you understand why you can't add a speed to a length, and you say "no."

It's all in this thread, black and white, clear as crystal.

What's also clear is who is lying. I'll give you two guesses.
About the math thing, I don't even remember what I was adding, so I don't event know if I used the right calculations to do what I really didn't know what I was adding. If I remember correctly, I was simply adding two sets of numbers you gave me. But hey, keep trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill if it makes you happy.

About the other lies, I'm forbidden to discuss it, so looks like we are ***** out of luck.

[Killtown]

No, I do not. Things that have 10x as much energy tend to behave differently. Feel free to drop an egg from an inch off a table, and then 10 inches. You'll see the difference is remarkable.
YOu forgot to answer my 1st question.

you egg comparison proves my point actually.

[Bell]

YOu forgot to answer my 1st question.

you egg comparison proves my point actually.

And you forgot to answer my question about which plane did crash at Shanksville. But I have concluded from that, a few hours ago, that you agree UA 93 crashed at Shanksville.

[Regnad Kcin]

Lies, lies, and more lies.Sayeth the liar.

[Killtown]

And you forgot to answer my question about which plane did crash at Shanksville. But I have concluded from that, a few hours ago, that you agree UA 93 crashed at Shanksville.
Whatever floats your boat.

[R.Mackey]

About the math thing, I don't even remember what I was adding, so I don't event know if I used the right calculations to do what I really didn't know what I was adding. If I remember correctly, I was simply adding two sets of numbers you gave me. But hey, keep trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill if it makes you happy.

About the other lies, I'm forbidden to discuss it, so looks like we are ***** out of luck.
Ah.

So you've backpedaled from "R.Mackey, you're a liar" to "Well, maybe I did, but I don't remember, and it's your fault anyway."

Nice try.

This thread and your blunders in it are the albatross around your neck, Killtown. You will get no respite until you start undoing your misdeeds, and that means apologizing to Val. Count on it.

[Bell]

Whatever floats your boat.

Whatever you agree to.

There's a new thread about this, in case you missed it.

[Killtown]

Ah.

So you've backpedaled from "R.Mackey, you're a liar" to "Well, maybe I did, but I don't remember, and it's your fault anyway."

No, you just present a narrow version of the story which basically means you are a liar.

[Bell]

No, you just present a narrow version of the story which basically means you are a liar.

:eek:

[R.Mackey]

No, you just present a narrow version of the story which basically means you are a liar.
Once again, I've linked to your errors in this thread. Very, very stupid ones.

My "narrow version" and my presentation are irrelevant.

So, no, it doesn't mean that I'm a liar. It means that you are incompetent. Your statement above, however, means that you are also a liar.

Keep on digging that hole, Killtown. You don't have a way out.

[Anti-sophist]

YOu forgot to answer my 1st question.


The answer to your first question is irrelevant until we establish the answer to the second question. Why do you think it's fair to compare to events that differ by a factor of 10 in energy?

I can show what a car wreck looks like at 20 miles per hour, and then show what a car wreck looks like at 60 mph. They don't look the same, but they are both car wrecks.


you egg comparison proves my point actually.


Oh really?

[Killtown]

Oh really?
I"m just answering this because it will relate to the other questions.

An egg dropped on cement and a faster speed will splatter further. Since their was not much "splattering" at the crash scene and officials said the plane burrowed underground in which they had to dig 15ft(?) down to find it, I conclude that the fireball was relatively small, therefore a smoke plume no where near 700 yrds wide.

[R.Mackey]

I"m just answering this because it will relate to the other questions.

An egg dropped on cement and a faster speed will splatter further. Since their was not much "splattering" at the crash scene and officials said the plane burrowed underground in which they had to dig 15ft(?) down to find it, I conclude that the fireball was relatively small, therefore a smoke plume no where near 700 yrds wide.
Add "short attention span" to the list of charges. You're in reruns now, Killtown. See the post linked below:

The Hardly Boys, in the Case of the Burrowing Aircraft (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1896267#post1896267)

[Killtown]

Add "short attention span" to the list of charges. You're in reruns now, Killtown. See the post linked below:

The Hardly Boys, in the Case of the Burrowing Aircraft (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1896267#post1896267)
Hmm, funny none of these "bits of debris" raining down managed to land on the grass around the crater. Only in the middle of the crater, the forest, Indian Lake, and beyond.

[Anti-sophist]

I"m just answering this because it will relate to the other questions.

An egg dropped on cement and a faster speed will splatter further. Since their was not much "splattering" at the crash scene and officials said the plane burrowed underground in which they had to dig 15ft(?) down to find it, I conclude that the fireball was relatively small, therefore a smoke plume no where near 700 yrds wide.

You've just attempted to explain how a plane crash at 500mph would react based upon an egg hitting concrete. These events are 10000x (a guess) different in energy, and yet you think it's a fair comparison?

[R.Mackey]

Hmm, funny none of these "bits of debris" raining down managed to land on the grass around the crater. Only in the middle of the crater, the forest, Indian Lake, and beyond.
Good luck proving that. I think you just made it up.

Go on, prove you're not lying again!

[Killtown]

You've just attempted to explain how a plane crash at 500mph would react based upon an egg hitting concrete. These events are 10000x (a guess) different in energy, and yet you think it's a fair comparison?
Since there wasn't much "egg splatter" at the scene, then most of the "egg" and it's "yoke" must have burrowed underground thereby not leaving much option for creating a 700 yrd plume that drifted 250yrd in 50 seconds without dissapating.

[Killtown]

Good luck proving that. I think you just made it up.

Go on, prove you're not lying again!
Do you see any debris on the grass around the crater?

Do you disagree that debris was found in Indian lake and beyond?

[R.Mackey]

Do you see any debris on the grass around the crater?

Do you disagree that debris was found in Indian lake and beyond?
I said prove it, not ask more stupid questions.

Prove your statement, or else, as a known liar and mathematical dunce, your statement is automatically viewed as suspect.

[Killtown]

I said prove it, not ask more stupid questions.

Prove your statement, or else, as a known liar and mathematical dunce, your statement is automatically viewed as suspect.
Well no debris on the grass is an objective one requiring eyesight and looking at the crash scene photos.

As for debris found at Indian Lake 2 miles away:

Workers at Indian Lake Marina said that they saw a cloud of confetti-like debris descend on the lake and nearby farms minutes after hearing the explosion that signaled the crash at 10:06 a.m. Tuesday.

http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp


And past that:

America Under Attack: FBI and State Police Cordon Off Debris Area Six to Eight Miles from Crater Where Plane Went Down

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/13/bn.01.html

[R.Mackey]

Well no debris on the grass is an objective one requiring eyesight and looking at the crash scene photos.
That's what I thought.

You can't prove it. You're just making stuff up again.

Shame on you, liar.

[Killtown]

That's what I thought.

You can't prove it. You're just making stuff up again.

Shame on you, liar.
Well show me plane debris on the grass around the crater and I'll retract my statement.

[Anti-sophist]

Since there wasn't much "egg splatter" at the scene, then most of the "egg" and it's "yoke" must have burrowed underground thereby not leaving much option for creating a 700 yrd plume that drifted 250yrd in 50 seconds without dissapating.

Allow me to repeat the comment you replied to, since you failed to address it:


You've just attempted to explain how a plane crash at 500mph would react based upon an egg hitting concrete. These events are 10000x (a guess) different in energy, and yet you think it's a fair comparison?

[R.Mackey]

Well show me plane debris on the grass around the crater and I'll retract my statement.
Doesn't work that way. You said there wasn't any. You now admit that you don't know what you're talking about.

You lose. Again. The longer this thread gets, the more mistakes you make. No way out, liar.

[Killtown]

Allow me to repeat the comment you replied to, since you failed to address it:
yes.

[Killtown]

Doesn't work that way. You said there wasn't any. You now admit that you don't know what you're talking about.

You lose. Again. The longer this thread gets, the more mistakes you make. No way out, liar.
What did I lie about?

[CptColumbo]

Since there wasn't much "egg splatter" at the scene, then most of the "egg" and it's "yoke" must have burrowed underground thereby not leaving much option for creating a 700 yrd plume that drifted 250yrd in 50 seconds without dissapating.

You do realize that the "yoke" in your analogy would be jet fuel. Which would burn away.

[R.Mackey]

What did I lie about?
What didn't you lie about?

[Killtown]

You do realize that the "yoke" in your analogy would be jet fuel. Which would burn away.
burn away underground???

[Killtown]

What didn't you lie about?
I haven't lied about anything, so go out a prove I did Mr. Knowitall.

[Gravy]

No debris around the crater? Is Killtown that stupid? This is from his website.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904535b326b2c5c.jpg

[Anti-sophist]

Well his entire argument is based upon the assumption that what happens to an egg is roughly equal to what happens to an airplane.

An egg dropped from 10 feet has about 5 joules of energy. An airplane at 575mph and about 250,000 pounds clocks in around 5 billion joules of kinetic energy, plus the chemical energy of the fuel (which is many times higher). That's only a factor of 1,000,000,000 to 1. Seems like a reasonable extrapolation to me.

(edit to fix math, not that it matters)

[R.Mackey]

No debris around the crater? Is Killtown that stupid? This is from his website.




Well, Killtown, there's yet another thing that you've lied about. Not only did you lie when you said there was no debris on the crater, but you actually had evidence of it.

Not just a simple lie, no. Actually withholding and misrepresenting evidence. Willful intent to deceive. But that's par for the course for you, eh Killtown?

Thanks, Gravy.

[Killtown]

Well, Killtown, there's yet another thing that you've lied about. Not only did you lie when you said there was no debris on the crater, but you actually had evidence of it.

Hmm, funny none of these "bits of debris" raining down managed to land on the grass around the crater. Only in the middle of the crater, the forest, Indian Lake, and beyond.

I'm sorry, who's lying?


And I'm sure you guys will say "middle" does not mean on or in, but for my post, middle means same as on or in.

[Gravy]

Well, Killtown, there's yet another thing that you've lied about. Not only did you lie when you said there was no debris on the crater, but you actually had evidence of it.

Not just a simple lie, no. Actually withholding and misrepresenting evidence. Willful intent to deceive. But that's par for the course for you, eh Killtown?

Thanks, Gravy.
This has been posted here before, but Killtown needs his nose rubbed in his lies as much as possible. See any debris, Killtown?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904535b50e8743f.jpg

[Killtown]

Well his entire argument is based upon the assumption that what happens to an egg is roughly equal to what happens to an airplane.

An egg dropped from 10 feet has about 5 joules of energy. An airplane at 575mph and about 250,000 pounds clocks in around 5 billion joules of kinetic energy, plus the chemical energy of the fuel (which is many times higher). That's only a factor of 1,000,000,000 to 1. Seems like a reasonable extrapolation to me.

(edit to fix math, not that it matters)
Happens to fuel when it burrows underground at any speed?

[CptColumbo]

burn away underground???

You said
Since there wasn't much "egg splatter" at the scene, then most of the "egg" and it's "yoke" must have burrowed underground thereby not leaving much option for creating a 700 yrd plume that drifted 250yrd in 50 seconds without dissapating.
I was giving an alternate and more likely explaination, for what happened to the "yoke." Rather than being buried underground, it burned up. Thus smoke. Also pointing out yet another way that your analogy is flawed.

[Killtown]

This has been posted here before, but Killtown needs his nose rubbed in his lies as much as possible. See any debris, Killtown?
When was that photo taken?

[Killtown]

Rather than being buried underground, it burned up. Thus smoke.
Burned up where?

[Anti-sophist]

When was that photo taken?

Heh, gotta love the circular reasoning. Conspiracy hypothesis invoked to eliminate evidence against the conspiracy hypothesis.

[R.Mackey]

Hmm, funny none of these "bits of debris" raining down managed to land on the grass around the crater. Only in the middle of the crater, the forest, Indian Lake, and beyond.
Here's the original quote.

So. How do you KNOW that no "bits of debris managed to land on the grass around the crater?"

Or did you just make that up?

If you don't KNOW that, then you lied. Period.

Very simple.

[Killtown]

Heh, gotta love the circular reasoning. Conspiracy hypothesis invoked to eliminate evidence against the conspiracy hypothesis.
Well if that photo was taken after they excavated, can't that explain the debris on the ground?

[Killtown]

How do you KNOW that no "bits of debris managed to land on the grass around the crater?"
I didn't see any, did you?

[Gravy]

When was that photo taken?
September 11, 2001. Moussaoui trial prosecution exhibit P200058. It's on your website, creep.

[R.Mackey]

I didn't see any, did you?
Like I said, you admit you don't know what you're talking about. Thus, you lied.

I don't understand why you still post here. Every post you make only weakens your case. Like how you get so testy every time I remind you how you can't add, shown irrefutably back on pp. 31-32 of this thread. This thread, now 73 pages and growing, is an absolute gold mine of your blunders and idiotic mistakes, without one shred of evidence out of you.

I guess I'm glad that I don't understand you.

[qarnos]

September 11, 2001. Moussaoui trial prosecution exhibit P200058. It's on your website, creep.

You'd think he could do a little research himself every now and then, rather than demanding everyone else do it for him.

[Killtown]

1) September 11, 2001. Moussaoui trial prosecution exhibit P200058. It's on your website,

2) creep.
1) I couldn't find it. can you please show me?

2) LoL! Love your mature use of words when debating!

So you are a deceiver, pervert (see sig below), and immature. The OCT's must be proud of one of their heros!

[Gravy]

1) I couldn't find it. can you please show me?

2) LoL! Love your mature use of words when debating!

So you are a deceiver, pervert (see sig below), and immature. The OCT's must be proud of one of their heros!
Masturbation is a perversion? Please start a new discussion thread on that in another subforum.

If you can't find the photo, I suggest you familiarize yourself with your website rather than trolling here. You're the one who's lying about 9/11. At least you could purge your website of evidence that incriminates you. Or are you one of those people who wants to be caught. Sure seems like it.

So, Killtown, do you have any other beliefs to express about Val McClatchey? Or do you rest your case?

[Killtown]

1) Masturbation is a perversion?

2) If you can't find the photo, I suggest you familiarize yourself with your website rather than trolling here.

3) You're the one who's lying about 9/11.

4) So, Killtown, do you have any other beliefs to express about Val McClatchey? Or do you rest your case?
1) No, it's perverse when you dream that I am with 9/11 evidence.

2) Oh I found it, couldn't find where it said what date it was taken. Perhaps you can show me.

3) Oh I am, huh?

4) Yes I do.

[Gravy]

2) Oh I found it, couldn't find where it said what date it was taken. Perhaps you can show me.
Are you blind, stupid, or both? Never mind. I don't want to know.

[Anti-sophist]

Are you blind, stupid, or both? Never mind. I don't want to know.

I am so sending you one of these...


http://images.cafepress.com/product/28824897_240x240_Front.jpg

[CptColumbo]

Killtown you should really not alter what someone wrote, without saying you did.

[Killtown]

Are you blind, stupid, or both? Never mind. I don't want to know.
I still noticed you haven't posted your claim.

[Killtown]

Arkan_Wolfshade, when do we get to see your finished debunk of my plume photo analysis?

[Brainache]

Arkan_Wolfshade, when do we get to see your finished debunk of my plume photo analysis?

About five or ten pages ago I think.

[Killtown]

About five or ten pages ago I think.
No, on his blog.

[Matthew Best]

I remember seeing it somewhere around here. Try looking harder.

[Killtown]

Just face it, if her photo is legit, it shows a smoke plume that came from an explosion that didn't drift 250yd in 50sec and wasn't an astonishing 7 football fields long.

[R.Mackey]

Just face it, if her photo is legit, it shows a smoke plume that came from an explosion that didn't drift 250yd in 50sec and wasn't an astonishing 7 football fields long.
Only "astonishing" to you, liar. It's all in this thread. You haven't the foggiest clue on how to even argue the point.

[The_Fire]

I'm only going to answer to people who are at least .0000001% openminded.

And the criteria for this would be........?

[Killtown]

Only "astonishing" to you, liar. It's all in this thread. You haven't the foggiest clue on how to even argue the point.
What did I lie about?

[R.Mackey]

What did I lie about?

Once again, the more appropriate question is "what didn't you lie about?"

It's all in the thread...

[Gravy]

Val McClatchey calls Killtown a coward on TV. (http://kdka.com/911/local_story_253090222.html) Way to go, Val! He sure is.

[Killtown]

Once again, the more appropriate question is "what didn't you lie about?"

It's all in the thread...
What ev.

[R.Mackey]

Val McClatchey calls Killtown a coward on TV. (http://kdka.com/911/local_story_253090222.html) Way to go, Val! He sure is.

Sweet.

I don't normally advocate vengeance, but... if they asked me to testify as an expert witness in Killtown's trial, I'd be there with bells on. Out of pocket. And buy Val dinner. :D

Seems to me she'd be able to handle our big boy just fine, though, in real life.

[Killtown]

If her photo is real, funny she hasn't reached out to me to try to clear things up, huh?

[Darat]

Thread closed and Killtown suspended - see: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2015750#post2015750