Does "going to heaven" really solve anything?

[advancedatheist]

Why do christians think that "going to heaven" solves all their problems, if they can still choose rebel against god once they get there?

After all, many if not most christians have this awkward belief about satan's rebellion in heaven. If god created satan with the foreknowledge that satan would rebel, he could just as easily let christians into heaven with the foreknowledge that some of them will rebel as well.

[thaiboxerken]

Since when do christians "think" about their beliefs?

[Foster Zygote]

I've wondered the same thing in the past. Will God rescind free will once the faithful earn their reward in Heaven? What if some get bored? "Hey! They've got blackjack and hookers down there! Let's go!"

Helping to light the fuze,
Steven

[advancedatheist]

I've wondered the same thing in the past. Will God rescind free will once the faithful earn their reward in Heaven? What if some get bored? "Hey! They've got blackjack and hookers down there! Let's go!"

What if you can rebel for some reason other than "free will"?

[stamenflicker]

What if heaven represents the best of all possible worlds, and free will does in fact exist, but everyone chooses to do the right thing? While the number of possible worlds in which the billions of people who have ever lived made wrong choices would be astronomical, it wouldn't be anymore astronomical than a universe giving birth to consciousness.

Free will and compliance aren't mutually exclusive, there could exist a space where both are present.

[slingblade]

Heaven always sounded boring as fark to me. Spending all of eternity praising God? No sex, no food? Cripes, what's the point, then?

No, heaven is a pap. "This world is evil, so God has made us a perfect place to go to after we die." Sounds like a snake-oil sales pitch, made by a shoddy community developer.

[The Atheist]

I always thought that the attraction of going to heaven was to be able to spend an eternity in the bosom of one's family and loved ones.

Makes hell sounds pretty good to me!

[Soapy Sam]

Do we have any evidence that Christians think going to heaven solves their problems?
All their problems (debt for example) are here on Earth. Dying may solve that via life assurance and certainly absolves them of any need to pay, but I don't know any Christian who has told me he wants to die to solve his debt problem.

[Bikewer]

As a bluegrass fan, I often get treated to the wide variety of bluegrass gospel stuff.
Most all of the traditional material deals with that vision of heaven involving being reunited with loved ones, getting a "mansion", and cruising around on the streets paved with gold.

Humans being what they are, you'd think this would get rather old after a bit, and folks would be wondering if the neighbor's mansion wasn't just a little bit bigger than theirs, or maybe some of those gold paving blocks wouldn't be better piled up in the basement in case of a rainy day...

Mark Twain had a good bit of fun with the religious ideas of heaven, having his character dutifully hunt up a robe and a harp, only to get bored stiff with playing it in a few hours.

[KingMerv00]

What if heaven represents the best of all possible worlds, and free will does in fact exist, but everyone chooses to do the right thing? While the number of possible worlds in which the billions of people who have ever lived made wrong choices would be astronomical, it wouldn't be anymore astronomical than a universe giving birth to consciousness.

Free will and compliance aren't mutually exclusive, there could exist a space where both are present.

If God can make a perfect world and maintain free will, why not just do it on Earth?

[advancedatheist]

Do we have any evidence that Christians think going to heaven solves their problems?
All their problems (debt for example) are here on Earth. Dying may solve that via life assurance and certainly absolves them of any need to pay, but I don't know any Christian who has told me he wants to die to solve his debt problem.

Maybe you should read some of the threads on the Rapture Ready forum:

http://www.rr-bb.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20

Even the moderator seems embarrassed by some of the things christians have written about how desperately they want to get raptured to escape their worldly woes:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=267386

[Silly Green Monkey]

Are you sure that second link goes to the thread you thought of? All I saw was affirmations that posters should watch what they say to avoid twisting of words.

[ImaginalDisc]

As a bluegrass fan, I often get treated to the wide variety of bluegrass gospel stuff.
Most all of the traditional material deals with that vision of heaven involving being reunited with loved ones, getting a "mansion", and cruising around on the streets paved with gold.


If gold were such an answesome building material, wouldn't we be using it?

[Bikewer]

It doesn't seem to me that gold would be a particularly good paving material. No doubt slippery when wet (does it rain in Heaven?), and rather malleable so you wouldn't think it would be too long before you were replacing bricks...

No doubt if the Michelin guys make it Paradise, they could design appropriate rubber.

[stamenflicker]

If God can make a perfect world and maintain free will, why not just do it on Earth?

Whose to say God hasn't or won't? In order for the best of all possible worlds to even exist, doesn't that mean you need a series of less than best possible worlds? Or why not take the best of each and every possible world and assemble them together in the best of all possible worlds?

[Darth Rotor]

If God can make a perfect world and maintain free will, why not just do it on Earth?
Is Heaven a physical place like, say, Newark, New Jersey. Not as I understand it. I don't think that is good theology in any case, but I have been brought up short by any number of the Faithful for my understanding.

What one's consciousness, sprit, and soul will hunger for once the mortal coil is shed is only known to those who have done so. Absent the Challenge being successfully met by a psychic, the details will remain a mystery to the run of the mill mortal.

So what?

DR

[Kimpatsu]

It doesn't seem to me that gold would be a particularly good paving material. No doubt slippery when wet (does it rain in Heaven?)...
Rain is supposedly the waters of Heaven, remember? (Genesis 7:11)

[KingMerv00]

Whose to say God hasn't or won't? In order for the best of all possible worlds to even exist, doesn't that mean you need a series of less than best possible worlds?

No. I don't see how crappy worlds are necessary to an omnipotent creator. Explain.

Or why not take the best of each and every possible world and assemble them together in the best of all possible worlds?

Omnipotent.

[KingMerv00]

Is Heaven a physical place like, say, Newark, New Jersey. Not as I understand it. I don't think that is good theology in any case, but I have been brought up short by any number of the Faithful for my understanding.

What one's consciousness, sprit, and soul will hunger for once the mortal coil is shed is only known to those who have done so. Absent the Challenge being successfully met by a psychic, the details will remain a mystery to the run of the mill mortal.

So what?

DR

What does this have to with a perfect world?

[New Ager]

Whose to say God hasn't or won't? In order for the best of all possible worlds to even exist, doesn't that mean you need a series of less than best possible worlds? Or why not take the best of each and every possible world and assemble them together in the best of all possible worlds?

That's like saying God needs evil to exist for him to exist, which he doesn't. Too silly.

And I really like how so many of you come up with some discrepancy in the Christian religion and think you have proved there is no God.

There are thousands of faiths, which most of you have never challenged. One of those could be true.

[ntech]

And I really like how so many of you come up with some discrepancy in the Christian religion and think you have proved there is no God. There are thousands of faiths, which most of you have never challenged. One of those could be true.
No offense but it is not up to an atheist to prove there is no god. Professing a god is an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. An Atheist makes no claim. You are right that there are thousands of faiths, each thinking the others to be wrong and professing that only they go to heaven while all others to hell. Atheists simply believe one more to be wrong.

I cannot imagine a worse punishment than to be forced to live forever.

[Beerina]

What if heaven represents the best of all possible worlds, and free will does in fact exist, but everyone chooses to do the right thing? While the number of possible worlds in which the billions of people who have ever lived made wrong choices would be astronomical, it wouldn't be anymore astronomical than a universe giving birth to consciousness.

Free will and compliance aren't mutually exclusive, there could exist a space where both are present.

Yes, but the vast majority will be thrown into Hell. Knowing this ahead of time demonstrates God is an evil being. And if God chooses to not know ahead of time (or better yet, can't know) then God is an irresponsible tyrant.

At some point in eternal existence, you have to wonder what the point of it all is. If it's not experiencing hedonistic pleasures, then everything else is just a silly exercise in overcoming artificial obstacles.

[Beerina]

Whose to say God hasn't or won't? In order for the best of all possible worlds to even exist, doesn't that mean you need a series of less than best possible worlds? Or why not take the best of each and every possible world and assemble them together in the best of all possible worlds?

Yeah! People could set up erotic encounters for each other. "In this world, you'll play a 14 year old lad who hooks up with his 38 year old, pendulous-breasted English teacher for his "first time". Three weeks into the semester, I'll tweak her mind so she develops the hots for you. Your own response will need no tweaking. Ready? Your temporary mind wipe will begin momentarily, then you will slide into position the eve before school starts that year. Ready? GO!"

Unless eternity is filled with myriad encounters, what's the point? You can sing praises to an infinite doofus, I'll take the low road, thanks.

[jmercer]

What if heaven is a state of continuous ecstasy? :)

[kedo1981]

Christians don’t want to go to heaven to solve their problems; they want to go because the B.I.B.L.E says the alterative is eternal damnation.

The B.I.B.L.E certainly implies that heaven is a physical realm a new world (Earth) recreated by God.

I think you could point out the similarities in other after life myths like those of the Egyptians.

So lets just say that a Christian makes it to heaven, what about his loved ones, what would the chances be that all the people he loved make it to.

Jesus says “all who call me lord will not enter the kingdom of heaven”, so don’t that mean that a significant percentage of “apparent” Christians will not get in.

[ntech]

You can sing praises to an infinite doofus, I'll take the low road, thanks.

lol ......................good one.

I never did get this worship thing. Any god who wants humans to worship it would be exhibiting human emotions. Why would an all powerful being have human emotions. It's a dead give away that it was just a tall tale written by a group of people thousands of years ago when developing religions was more common than today. They weren't socially developed enough to realize that an omnipotent being would not be exhibiting human emotion especially at the level portrayed in the bible.

[slingblade]

There are thousands of faiths, which most of you have never challenged. One of those could be true.

Then I shall be more specific. I do not believe in any gods, from any system.

[Genesius]

Then I shall be more specific. I do not believe in any gods, from any system.

Well then, we know where you're getting your ideas from, don't we?

Could it be. . . . SATAN?

:D

[elliotfc]

Why do christians think that "going to heaven" solves all their problems, if they can still choose rebel against god once they get there?

Because free will isn't the problem.

After all, many if not most christians have this awkward belief about satan's rebellion in heaven. If god created satan with the foreknowledge that satan would rebel, he could just as easily let christians into heaven with the foreknowledge that some of them will rebel as well.

Agreed, sort of. The foreknowledge that Satan would rebel was a consequence of the foreknowledge of Satan's creation, in heaven.

-Elliot

[Soapy Sam]

[quote=advancedatheist;1843041]Maybe you should read some of the threads on the Rapture Ready forum:


Thanks, but I ate, already. :D

[Crowbot]

There are thousands of faiths, which most of you have never challenged. One of those could be true.

Using that kind of logic, would it be safe for you to assume there is at least a POTENTIAL that *I* am in fact the one true God? You can start worshipping me, the one true God, by sending money to my "church". PM me for details.

[Dark Jaguar]

Also it's not really up to us to go around disproving all the world's faiths. They are the ones who need to give us a reason to consider them.

I've asked this question of a faithful man at one point, asking very directly "so in heaven there's no chance of anyone sinning right? The desire is removed completely?". His response was rather chilling: "Actually people will still be able to, but if anyone sins they are instantly cast into hell".

I didn't give this response at the time, but thinking about it for a few seconds after he was gone I instantly realized that if it is possible to sin in heaven, and you are in heaven for an infinite amount of time, probability dictates every single person in heaven will end up in hell eventually. I mean that's an INFINITE amount of time, it'll happen eventually to each and every one of them, whether it takes a minute or a googlequadrijillishmabillion years, and THEN it's infinity in a place where it isn't possible to get out but you totally want to. And no matter what finite number you could ever come up with, that time in heaven will seem a blink of an eye eventually and there's still infinity to go.

Anyone partaking in a similar belief doesn't seem to realize that it basically states EVERYONE is doomed to eternal torment.

[elliotfc]

Also it's not really up to us to go around disproving all the world's faiths. They are the ones who need to give us a reason to consider them.

I've asked this question of a faithful man at one point, asking very directly "so in heaven there's no chance of anyone sinning right? The desire is removed completely?". His response was rather chilling: "Actually people will still be able to, but if anyone sins they are instantly cast into hell".

Kind of like what happened to Lucifer, right? That you found it chilling I don't doubt, but it sort of follows from what many Christians already believe. Did you find Paradise Lost chilling in the same way?

I didn't give this response at the time, but thinking about it for a few seconds after he was gone I instantly realized that if it is possible to sin in heaven, and you are in heaven for an infinite amount of time, probability dictates every single person in heaven will end up in hell eventually.

Is it possible for you to rape someone?

If you live forever, will you *eventually* rape someone?

An extreme example I admit.

Anyone partaking in a similar belief doesn't seem to realize that it basically states EVERYONE is doomed to eternal torment.

It isn't that I don't realize it as much as I reject the notion.

-Elliot

[Cosmo]

Is it possible for you to rape someone?

I have never done so in this life, nor have I done anything even remotely close to it, nor could I even speculate upon what circumstances might lead me to perform such a foul deed.

Yet despite the above, I can't rule out the possibility. The chance that I might rape someone before I die, while (I'd like to think) exceptionally small, is not zero.

If you live forever, will you *eventually* rape someone?

Yes, by definition, for all non-zero "chances" of me raping someone. It is no matter how small the chance may be.

It isn't that I don't realize it as much as I reject the notion.

Why?

[elliotfc]

I have never done so in this life, nor have I done anything even remotely close to it, nor could I even speculate upon what circumstances might lead me to perform such a foul deed.

Yet despite the above, I can't rule out the possibility. The chance that I might rape someone before I die, while (I'd like to think) exceptionally small, is not zero.

I see...so...what you're saying is that in an infinite amount of time, anything that is *possible* will eventually happen. I'm not trying to set up a...oh whaddaya people always call it...straw man...yeah that's it. Am I representing your point accurately?

Here's why I disagree. Let's take something like the lottery. You could say, correctly, that in infinite time you'd *eventually* win the lottery. I agree with that. But what if you don't play the lottery? Then even in an infinite amount of time you'll never win the lottery. You have to be in it to win it.

So. Let's take something like child molestation. I disagree that eventually, in infinite time, everyone will eventually molest a child. Because that's an active thing. It isn't something like...there's a percent possibility that if you are talking with a child you might end up molesting the child. Meaning every 100,000 interactions with a child there is 1 molestation (I'm just making up a ratio, it's probably something else). But that isn't true. Actually it's *child molestors* who make such a ratio exist, and those who don't molest children have nothing to do with the ratio.

Yes, by definition, for all non-zero "chances" of me raping someone. It is no matter how small the chance may be.

A personal question. Feel free to ignore it.

Have you ever thought about raping someone?

If so...I think I'd agree with you that there is a small chance that maybe you could/would. ******BUT******* I wouldn't think of that in the same way that I think that there is a small chance that, oh I don't know, the molecules of my mouse may spontaneously rearrange and it could move of it's own volition across my desk. In that situation there is no free will.

Free will, the ability to make a decision, the ability to choose to do something, can override the smallest of probabilities. Every time. For eternity.

Now, if I didn't believe in free will, I'd be more partial to the proposition, although even then I don't know if I'd actually buy it.

-Elliot

[Hyver]

Of course heaven will fix everything, it's heaven.

BTW, Satan never would have rebelled if he had stuck around until God installed the stripper factories and the beer volcanos.

[Dark Jaguar]

Kind of like what happened to Lucifer, right? That you found it chilling I don't doubt, but it sort of follows from what many Christians already believe. Did you find Paradise Lost chilling in the same way?

Never read the book actually. And yes, it does sort of follow.

Is it possible for you to rape someone?

If you live forever, will you *eventually* rape someone?

An extreme example I admit.


If it is possible for me to rape someone, and that possibility remains upon my obtainment of eternal life, then yes by the very nature of probability it will eventually happen. Whether it is possible may be in question of course, but for the sake of this argument the person I was talking to readily stated that yes it will be possible for people to sin after reaching heaven.


It isn't that I don't realize it as much as I reject the notion.

-Elliot

For what reasons do you reject the notion? Do you disagree with the probability factor? Remember, "forever" isn't just something to toss out there randomly. We're talking frickin' INFINITY here. Any non-zero probability rerolled an infinite number of times will eventually happen. If it's infinite, it's inevitable. If I were to drive on a moderatly busy street every single day for a week, the chances of a car crash are pretty slim. Multiply that by ETERNITY and I WILL get in a car crash at some point though.

What's the difference in this case? Either god will make it impossible for anyone to ever sin (which during my christian days I had thought would be the case, I had assumed that "freedom from sin" meant exactly that in my own faith in that time), or he will allow it thus meaning everyone will eventually sin. In a billion years, it may not happen. In a quadrillion, odds still allow for it not happening. In infinity, it's impossible for it not to happen unless at some point the ability to sin is removed entirely.

Of course, if god is "above" logic and math then this is muted. Christianity has succesfully removed itself from any reasonable debate.

[Dark Jaguar]

I see...so...what you're saying is that in an infinite amount of time, anything that is *possible* will eventually happen. I'm not trying to set up a...oh whaddaya people always call it...straw man...yeah that's it. Am I representing your point accurately?

Here's why I disagree. Let's take something like the lottery. You could say, correctly, that in infinite time you'd *eventually* win the lottery. I agree with that. But what if you don't play the lottery? Then even in an infinite amount of time you'll never win the lottery. You have to be in it to win it.

So. Let's take something like child molestation. I disagree that eventually, in infinite time, everyone will eventually molest a child. Because that's an active thing. It isn't something like...there's a percent possibility that if you are talking with a child you might end up molesting the child. Meaning every 100,000 interactions with a child there is 1 molestation (I'm just making up a ratio, it's probably something else). But that isn't true. Actually it's *child molestors* who make such a ratio exist, and those who don't molest children have nothing to do with the ratio.



A personal question. Feel free to ignore it.

Have you ever thought about raping someone?

If so...I think I'd agree with you that there is a small chance that maybe you could/would. ******BUT******* I wouldn't think of that in the same way that I think that there is a small chance that, oh I don't know, the molecules of my mouse may spontaneously rearrange and it could move of it's own volition across my desk. In that situation there is no free will.

Free will, the ability to make a decision, the ability to choose to do something, can override the smallest of probabilities. Every time. For eternity.

Now, if I didn't believe in free will, I'd be more partial to the proposition, although even then I don't know if I'd actually buy it.

-Elliot

My only issue with that example is that he states it is possible for him. That's a "given". Well, okay it works fine if it's a given that it's possible. If however it may not be physically possible, given certain psychological makeups, then it would be a chance of 0.

Your idea of free will is a little odd. Apparently it can defy logic too eh? By what manner does the ability of free will somehow supervene over that? Seems to follow the same things to me. If you happen to pick by free choice that you will have a ham sandwitch most of the time because you prefer it but there is still a chance you may pick beef, then there's a chance you may pick beef. Repeat it a million times, you are still likely to have picked beef if the chances are low enough. If however the chance is not 0, then in infinite time, you WILL eat a beef sandwitch. It is your destiny so long as it is possible and you have an infinite amount of situations to make the decision in.

What does free will have to do with it?