Non-American Conspiracy Theories?

[Hishighness]

Maybe it's just because I live in Canada and am bombarded by American TV and culture, but it seems to me the vast majority of Conspiracy Theories in the civilized world are American ones. In fact, I can't think of any Canadian or French or British ones off the top of my head. The only international, first world conspiracy theory I can think of is people denying the holocaust. Of course I'm not a CT expert so if you know of any others please post them.

Why is that though? Are Americans just an inherantly distrustful culture as a result of the manner in which their country was born?

[MarkyX]

I think it might have to do with the fact that United States is the most powerful nation in the world.

The "Harper" theory died within a week. I'm really surprised it hasn't been talked about it more.

[Mancunian]

In Britain we have the "Princess Diana was Murdered" conspiracy theory.

[TK0001]

In Britain we have the "Princess Diana was Murdered" conspiracy theory.

Also, the pre-9/11 London bombings being pulled off by the NWO/Illuminati/Masons/whatever.

[Cuddles]

The Illuminati are based in America, so obviously they do more work at home and are at more risk of accidently leaving some evidence lying around.

[Ersby]

Also, the pre-9/11 London bombings being pulled off by the NWO/Illuminati/Masons/whatever.

I've never heard that.

We had the whole Jack The Ripper/Royal Family thing. Actually, the Royal Family's quite a good source for conspiracies.

[brodski]

Given America's modern cultural dominance, military might and the almost unique mixture of secret and security services which are prepared to get up to some crazy things (CIA LSD experiments, stargate etc) with an openness and commitment to freedom of information which is not seem in the rest of the security and intelligence communities*, it's not surprising that so many CTs are American, even those that deal with non American incidents tend to be blamed on the CIA. The only other government which is almost always deemed to be involved is Israel. Partially because Mossad have been prepared to carry out high profile and controversial operations, and partially because of good old-fashioned anti-Semitic paranoia.
Looking for a British CT I would point you towards Mohammed Al Fyad's accusations of a Prince of Wales/ MI5/ Mossad plot to Murder his son and his lover, Princess Diana. David Ike is also a "good" source fro non US CTs, although I'm sure that the Americans get a look in there somewhere.

* Whilst studying for my degree in modern history, I was able to get information through American sources about British operations, against British subjects carried out on British territory, which has not yet been released to British citizens by the UK government.

[Bandersnatch]

Well, we have the Shag Harbour, NS UFO crash in '68.

[TK0001]

Do cropcircles count? Didn't that phenomena originate in England?

[Hishighness]

I wouldn't consider crop circles, that's not really a "conspiracy" as much as it is alien stuff.

[Hishighness]

I think it might have to do with the fact that United States is the most powerful nation in the world.

The "Harper" theory died within a week. I'm really surprised it hasn't been talked about it more.

Ya, Harper's hiding his true intentions until he gets a majority. Then we'll be just as screwed as Jesusland.

[chacal]

There is a conspiracy theory about the 1999 apartment building explosions in russia. It was supposedly FSB not Chechens that were behind those explosions.

http://eng.terror99.ru/

There's atleast two films made on this subject.

"Disbelief"
A fatal bomb blast in a Moscow apartment building ignites a fury of questions about terrorism, shadow politics, and post-Soviet intrigue in Disbelief; a film as much about the high art of political deception as it is about violence and human tragedy. The bombing on September 9, 1999, of a nine-story working-class apartment complex in Moscow was quickly blamed on Chechen terrorists. But was it their crime? Or did the Russian secret service deflect its own responsibility for the bombing on the Chechens to heighten national fear and hysteria and justify Russia's subsequent military attack on the breakaway republic?
http://www.disbelief-film.com/indexDE.htm

A video clip of Disbeliefs director Andrei Nekrasof speaking in Helsinki:
http://11syyskuu.net/video/andrei_nekrasov.wmv


Another film about the explosions: "Assassination of Russia" can watched here:
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_cover-ups.htm

A 52-minute documentary, using footage originally shot by NTV. The film examines the September explosions, and focuses on the foiled bombing in Ryazan on September 22, 1999. It puts a human face onto the tragedy- you will hear from those who were there, saw it, and lived through it. The film vividly portrays the inconsistencies in government officials' reactions to Ryazan, and their later attempts to consistently blame the Chechens. Questions about the possible involvement of the special services are raised.
Transparences Productions, France, 2000

[Kaarjuus]

Around the Baltic Sea, some believe the sinking of M/S Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M/S_Estonia) was a conspiracy, by either Russian or Swedish armed forces. Funny thing is, there actually are questionable issues about the incident.

Edit: replaced the entirely irrelevant link.

[EBU]

How about the Frenchman Thierry Meyssan and his 9/11 conspiracy book?

[Hishighness]

He is french, but it's an American conspiracy.

[Pardalis]

How about the Frenchman Thierry Meyssan and his 9/11 conspiracy book?

Doesn't that count as an American conspiracy theory?

Almost all of the 9/11 CTs originate from abroad anyways (Middle East).

[chacal]

Around the Baltic Sea, some believe the sinking of M/S Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M/S_Estonia) was a conspiracy, by either Russian or Swedish armed forces. Funny thing is, there actually are questionable issues about the incident.


What questionable issues?

[Kaarjuus]

What questionable issues?

Swedish response, mainly. And them pushing to have the wreckage covered with concrete ASAP.

[chacal]

Swedish response, mainly. And them pushing to have the wreckage covered with concrete ASAP.
http://uncyclopedia.org/images/thumb/d/dd/Conan.jpg/180px-Conan.jpg

[MilwaukeeMike]

Maybe it's just because I live in Canada and am bombarded by American TV and culture, but it seems to me the vast majority of Conspiracy Theories in the civilized world are American ones. In fact, I can't think of any Canadian or French or British ones off the top of my head. The only international, first world conspiracy theory I can think of is people denying the holocaust. Of course I'm not a CT expert so if you know of any others please post them.

Why is that though? Are Americans just an inherantly distrustful culture as a result of the manner in which their country was born?

Don't you know the universe revolves around America!!!!

Just joking since you couldn't hear the tone in my voice:)

[Hishighness]

Unfortunatly it does. Notice how much crappier the world is since Dubya took office. I know I'm payin a hell of a lot more for gas and food, how about you?

[Pardalis]

In fact, I can't think of any Canadian or French or British ones off the top of my head.

I would say that definately the sponsorship scandal was a real Canadian conspiracy.

[Kaarjuus]

http://uncyclopedia.org/images/thumb/d/dd/Conan.jpg/180px-Conan.jpg

Come on. Systembolaget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget) sucks. Standing in queues sucks. Having decent politicians being murdered by nuts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Lindh) and probably drug addicts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Palme_assassination) sucks.

Sweden, on the other hand, rocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flames).

[westphalia]

Unfortunatly it does. Notice how much crappier the world is since Dubya took office. I know I'm payin a hell of a lot more for gas and food, how about you?

Clearly the most important considerations in a world where a religious group is running amok, bombing, shooting and beheading at will, and threatening democracies throughout the civilized world with destruction.

God [sic], are people ignorant and self-centered.

P.S. I immensely enjoyed your attempt to analyze why America seems to be the hotbed for conspiracy theories. What particular circumstance of America's "birth" would lend itself to the formation of conspiracy theories?

[westphalia]

Never mind the question. I just noticed the original poster claims to be Canadian.

[gtc]

I have seen a documentary on the killing of Olof Palme which suggested it might have been far right elements in the police force.

Other conspiracy theories include:

The British royal family are drug runners who kept a werewolf (or werewolf like) heir to the throne locked up in the Tower (conflating two seperate theories).

The Elders of Zion have written a book (why do secret organisations feel the need to document their nefariousness) and are responsible for the rise of liberalism, Nazi ideology, communism etc.

[asmodean]

I have seen a documentary on the killing of Olof Palme which suggested it might have been far right elements in the police force.


Yeah, that and Estonia is the once that comes to mind for me. Otherwise for conspiracy theories in sweden at least seems to be the usual suspects: illuminatu/NWO/the joos controlling governements/the economy/the media/everything, flouridation as a mind control plot, Big Pharma conspiracy coverign up all these wonderful free, natural cures, mobile phones causing cancer but being covered up by companies/gubermint, etc...

The usual stuff in other words.

[Brainache]

There was an Australian CT about the disappearence of Harold Holt who was our Prime Minister in the early 60's. He went for a swim one day and was never seen again.
Most people believe he either drowned or was taken by sharks, but for a while there was a bizarre theory involving a chinese submarine and a communist plot.
I'll see if I can find a reference.

Well I found lots of references, but this one was the weirdest:
.haroldholt.net/


Thre was also a bit of a CT around Lindy ("That dingo's got my baby)Chamberlain. Some nonsense about Seventh Day Adventists sacrificing babies.

I don't think many people ever took these things seriously.

[Dazed]

The Echelon conspiracy is big in the EU.

Probably because its real.. but you can't prove it, so meh.

[brodski]

What particular circumstance of America's "birth" would lend itself to the formation of conspiracy theories?
I don't think that it's going overboard to suggest that many of the founding legends of the United States are based on a distrust of government, whilst this may be a perfectly healthy basis for a political philosophy, it does help to foster CTs.

[brodski]

The Echelon conspiracy is big in the EU.

Probably because its real.. but you can't prove it, so meh.
Is Echelon really a paranoid conspiracy theory? Which is what we're talking about here, I thought that Echelon was just meant to be some kind of automated CIA communications monitoring system,
and as we know that 1) content filtering technology (for at least some mediums) is readily available
2) the US does have listening posts in the UK and
3) the UK government does hove powers to monitor private communications, and to share those powers with allied nations, I would be very surprised if the CIA (or another US body) wasn't monitoring European communications.
Or am I missing something about the Echelon mythos?

[aggle-rithm]

Why is that though? Are Americans just an inherantly distrustful culture as a result of the manner in which their country was born?

I think it's a sad commentary on our education system. Our children are taught to score well on tests, and not how to think.

I saw an episode of "30 days" recently where an American worker went to India to work for one of the outsourcing companies that had taken his job away. During his stay, his building had to be evacuated because a famous actor, who had been an advocate for the poor, had died. Naturally, the poor, mostly uneducated masses of India began to riot, most likely because they felt the government was somehow responsible for his death.

[Foolmewunz]

I believe it's less an issue of Amurrica being the most powerful country in the world as it's a matter of a couple of the offshoots of its strength.... The mass media, and the attention the rest of the world pays to same.

IMO, conspiracy theories need someone with an outlet to take them seriously. I was living in Ottawa in 1970 during the "FLQ Crisis". You can guess we read and heard the news with the same horror, anger, misgivings, etc... as the rest of the country. Fast Forward to May of the following year and hanging with my "hip" brethren in Montreal (had moved there in January), the CT's were hanging there like ripe peaches, just pick your favorite and enjoy it. Pierre Laporte worked for the CIA and they killed him because he was going to go public to "Allo Police!" Cross was really trying to negotiate a separate trade agreement with Quebec, so the RCMP and Pierre Trudeau killed him. Etc....

Why didn't it create a mass movement? No outlet to the general public. There was certainly a large enough counter-culture in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, even Halifax... to plant the seeds, but there was no internet, no serious press coverage, and let's face it, eh?... It's Canada. You can't spread a rumor or CT through 25 million people that easily - not as widely dispersed as you are.

Take NYC as the counterfoil... More than 25 mio in the immediate "commuting" zone, and one of the favored election tactics in the 60's and 70's was "the elevator trick". Just get about fifteen pairs of people to get on elevators in tall buildings during the morning rush hour, and have them whisper, soto voce, "Jeez, I can't believe they're going to cover this up and let that bastard get away with it. She was his own niece, for chrissake, and he's the _________ (insert "governor", "mayor", "borough president" at whim)." By nightfall every taxi driver in the city was talking about going to City Hall to "impeach da bum, dat's what we oughta do"....

I think the only other countries with similar wealth to population ratio and free press and rampant media coverage would be Australia and England. And I know they've both had their own variations on CT's. (No can't recall specifics for Kanagaroo Kountry... bleary eyed pub conversations. But the Lady Di thing is probably going to run for a while.... BTW The Learning Channel really ought to be ashamed of the way the producers overdubbed incredulous toned announcers in that documentary at every commercial break!)

[gumboot]

New Zealand is founded on a Conspiracy Theory :D

Our key founding document is the Treaty of Waitangi, but there are issues because the English and Maori versions don't really say the same thing. While the logical answer is:

1) A lot of the concepts didn't have Maori equivelants
2) Those doing the translating weren't exactly brilliant speakers of Maori

Thus resulting in simple translation errors, you'd be surprised at the number of New Zealanders who genuinely believe the British did it on purpose so they could steal all the Maoris' land (an absurd notion given that history clearly shows had the British really wanted it they'd have just taken it).

-Andrew

[EBU]

Protocols of Zion? Does that count as a non-American CT?

[Darth Rotor]

Protocols of Zion? Does that count as a non-American CT?
I think so, since its origin was in either Russia or Poland, IIRC.

DR

[Dazed]

Is Echelon really a paranoid conspiracy theory? Which is what we're talking about here, I thought that Echelon was just meant to be some kind of automated CIA communications monitoring system,
and as we know that 1) content filtering technology (for at least some mediums) is readily available
2) the US does have listening posts in the UK and
3) the UK government does hove powers to monitor private communications, and to share those powers with allied nations, I would be very surprised if the CIA (or another US body) wasn't monitoring European communications.
Or am I missing something about the Echelon mythos?

It is a paranoid conspiracy theory, because the US heartily denies its existence, even while the EU is saying 'wtf, stop intercepting all our communications with your stupid echelon'

[brodski]

It is a paranoid conspiracy theory, because the US heartily denies its existence, even while the EU is saying 'wtf, stop intercepting all our communications with your stupid echelon'
I still don't think it meets the requirements for a PCT, governments have been known to lie in the past, especially about espionage. I can remember when Brittan officially had no secret intelligence, or security service ("Mi6" and "Mi5") Even though we could all see Thames house, and the newly built Vauxhall cross. Would it have been a paranoid conspiracy theory to believe that Mi5 &6 existed, dispute denials?
Echelon may not exist, but US listen posts in Brittan do, and echelon isn't much of a stretch from the confirmed facts.

[gumboot]

Echelon...

For the record...

It IS real, and it is NOT American. Or at least, not EXCLUSIVELY American.

Echelon is an international communication monitoring system, jointly run by what is termed the "Anglo-American" alliance. This being the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

Sites are independently run by the host nations - the organisation that runs Echelon in New Zealand is called Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB), and YES, they do actually exist, and they in fact advertise jobs just like any other government agency.

The Prime Minister currently holds the intelligence portfolio in cabinet, so GCSB (along with the NZSIS) report directly to Helen Clark.

NSA operate the US Echelon bases and satellites as far as I am aware, but they have absolutely no control over New Zealand's bases, nor anyone else's. New Zealand's bases are responsible for covering the South Pacific. I used to live fairly close to one of them in the Waihopai Valley (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/59/Waihopai.jpg), in Marlborough. (Waihopai is responsible for satellite communications, while the Tangimoana Station is responsible for radio communications).

Echelon works through what is referred to as the "eyes" system. The number of "eyes" denotes the level of sharing. For example:

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack a New Zealand ship.

This is "one eye" intel. New Zealand will not share this information with any of the other four Echelon partners.

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack a British site.

This is "two eyes" intel. New Zealand will share it with the UK, but no one else.

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack British aircraft flying to the United States.

This is "three eyes" intel. New Zealand will share this with the United States and the United Kingdom, but not Canada or Australia.

And so forth.

It is up to each independent nation to determine how many "eyes" a given piece of intel is given (five being the maximum).

It should also be pointed out that Echelon only intercepts INTERNATIONAL communications, not domestic ones. So a call to your friend overseas might get picked up (as I understand the "fishing" is done by computer now) but a call to your friend across town won't).

-Andrew

[hellaeon]

Most aussie conspiracies are less political and more wooish - eg tassie tiger not being extinct, giant lizards, giant beings in the desert, ufo base in the blue mountains etc.

I read a book back in my days of woo on that kind of stuff.

Now thankfully, the book im currently reading is Bad Astronomy.

[Dazed]

Its more than just 'listening posts' it encompasses intercepts on all the major communications backbones, and of course, the undersea cables.

[StewartP]

Robert Maxwell - British media proprietor, rose from poverty to build an extensive publishing business. After his mysterious death it was revealed that he had been stealing from staff pension funds on a massive scale to support the business. Also supposedly had links with Mossad.
On November 5, 1991, at the age of 68, Maxwell is presumed to have fallen overboard from his luxury yacht, Lady Ghislane, which was cruising off the Canary Islands, and his body was subsequently found floating in the Atlantic Ocean. He was buried in Jerusalem. The official verdict was accidental drowning, though some commentators have surmised that he may have committed suicide, and others that he was murdered. His daughter, Ghislaine Maxwell, quickly rubbished the notion of an accidental death on television.

I've lifted these paras from his wikipedia entry

[LW]

I have seen a documentary on the killing of Olof Palme which suggested it might have been far right elements in the police force.

Is there anyone who hasn't been suspected of Palme murder? Well, except Christer, of course.

[BPScooter]

I'm curious, now--I used to drive on I-495 and I-95 all the time in the DC area, USA, and saw the road signs and the construction and everything else that just said NSA-National Securty Agency. Just north after the traffic, it's toward Baltimore. After 9/11 there were cops there all the time, but if you had to go, you could go. Fort Meade was really close, and I remember a couple backups that would affect civilians but nobody said on the radio "Fort Meade does not now exist." So what the hell? 30 years ago the NSA existed? Like it doesn't now? "No Such Agency" is balderdash. Super high tech computers, phooey. There are many such high tech computers in much scarier places. PHOOEWY.

Go to the Cryptography museum at the NSA. or the Spy Museum in DC.

[BPScooter]

(I'm not venting at anyone here, just the overal Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist that may be readng)

[asmodean]

Is there anyone who hasn't been suspected of Palme murder? Well, except Christer, of course.

Dunno, no one's suggested complex suicide yet, so I guess Palme himself haven't been suspected... though I suspect it's just a matter of time.

[Hellbound]

Nevermind.

[FFed]

There is also the Avro Arrow conspiracy, about the Americans sabotaging the program.

[Carnivore]

New Zealand is founded on a Conspiracy Theory :D

Our key founding document is the Treaty of Waitangi, but there are issues because the English and Maori versions don't really say the same thing. While the logical answer is:

1) A lot of the concepts didn't have Maori equivelants
2) Those doing the translating weren't exactly brilliant speakers of Maori

Thus resulting in simple translation errors, you'd be surprised at the number of New Zealanders who genuinely believe the British did it on purpose so they could steal all the Maoris' land (an absurd notion given that history clearly shows had the British really wanted it they'd have just taken it).

-Andrew

I'm not sure this is a conspiracy theory, more intergenerational ignorance and misunderstanding. There are plenty of pakeha NZers who believe that the TOW meant that NZ was sold outright to the Crown for beads and blankets.

[Brainster]

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the British 7/7 Denial Movement, especially since Alex Jones gives it prominent placement in Terrorstorm.

[brodski]

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the British 7/7 Denial Movement, especially since Alex Jones gives it prominent placement in Terrorstorm.
But the 7/7 denial movement largely believe that the UK is pretty much part of the US, so as far as they are concerned there is no difference between the actions of SiS and the CIA, given that, and the fact the 7/7 denial movement is basically an offshoot of the 9/11 denial movement, I wouldn't claim that 7/7 denial is totally "non-American".

[defaultdotxbe]

Echelon...

For the record...

It IS real, and it is NOT American. Or at least, not EXCLUSIVELY American.

Echelon is an international communication monitoring system, jointly run by what is termed the "Anglo-American" alliance. This being the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

Sites are independently run by the host nations - the organisation that runs Echelon in New Zealand is called Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB), and YES, they do actually exist, and they in fact advertise jobs just like any other government agency.

The Prime Minister currently holds the intelligence portfolio in cabinet, so GCSB (along with the NZSIS) report directly to Helen Clark.

NSA operate the US Echelon bases and satellites as far as I am aware, but they have absolutely no control over New Zealand's bases, nor anyone else's. New Zealand's bases are responsible for covering the South Pacific. I used to live fairly close to one of them in the Waihopai Valley (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/59/Waihopai.jpg), in Marlborough. (Waihopai is responsible for satellite communications, while the Tangimoana Station is responsible for radio communications).

Echelon works through what is referred to as the "eyes" system. The number of "eyes" denotes the level of sharing. For example:

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack a New Zealand ship.

This is "one eye" intel. New Zealand will not share this information with any of the other four Echelon partners.

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack a British site.

This is "two eyes" intel. New Zealand will share it with the UK, but no one else.

The Waihopai Station picks up a transmission in the Pacific from a bunch of terrorists planning to attack British aircraft flying to the United States.

This is "three eyes" intel. New Zealand will share this with the United States and the United Kingdom, but not Canada or Australia.

And so forth.

It is up to each independent nation to determine how many "eyes" a given piece of intel is given (five being the maximum).

It should also be pointed out that Echelon only intercepts INTERNATIONAL communications, not domestic ones. So a call to your friend overseas might get picked up (as I understand the "fishing" is done by computer now) but a call to your friend across town won't).

-Andrew

i think the conspiracy comes in with potential abuses of such a system

is it REALLY just used to monitor international calls? (i personally believe that in at least the weeks following 9/11 ALL communication was intercepted and monitored)

are the REALLY just looking for terrorists talking? or are they trying to see who knows what




but again, this goes to show that things like this cannot be kept secret, even as the US "officially" denies its existance EVERYONE knows about it, like area 51

[gumboot]

There are plenty of pakeha NZers who believe that the TOW meant that NZ was sold outright to the Crown for beads and blankets.

Um, are you sure about that? I've never met a single New Zealander who believed that. Quite the opposite.

Most of the Maori land was seized by the crown after the Land Wars - seizing land off rebels is fairly standard practise.

A common interpretation of the TOW is the British purposefully CONSPIRED to incorrectly translate the Maori version of the TOW so Maori would sign it, not realising what they were giving up.

This is, of course, nonsense. But that's what makes it a conspiracy theory, rather than just a conspiracy.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

i think the conspiracy comes in with potential abuses of such a system


Absolutely.

Of course, bearing in mind CTers usually have certain pre-existing opinions about governments. For example CTers here in New Zealand don't believe that our Echelon Stations are run by our own people, or that we only share information when appropriate.

They're convinced they're American Bases, with the US spying on all of us.

You can't show them otherwise any more than you can show a 9/11 Denier testimony from NORAD that wargames didn't impair their response time.

-Andrew

[brodski]

You can't show them otherwise any more than you can show a 9/11 Denier testimony from NORAD that wargames didn't impair their response time.

In the UK you can't show people otherwise anyway, regardless of their willingness to look at evidence, as all of this is covered by the Official Secrets Act, so we're not allowed to talk about it. Strictly speaking, I shouldn't really be reading this thread…

[Carnivore]

Um, are you sure about that? I've never met a single New Zealander who believed that. Quite the opposite.

Most of the Maori land was seized by the crown after the Land Wars - seizing land off rebels is fairly standard practise.

A common interpretation of the TOW is the British purposefully CONSPIRED to incorrectly translate the Maori version of the TOW so Maori would sign it, not realising what they were giving up.


This is, of course, nonsense. But that's what makes it a conspiracy theory, rather than just a conspiracy.

-Andrew

Unfortunately yes, I am sure. I have had a number of surreal converstaions with acquaintances and coworkers where they flatly stated that the contents of the Treaty were other than they are. Offering to prove them wrong by showing them a copy was met with contemptuous dismissal. These people are among those who are vehemently against the settlements made by the Waitangi tribunal.

The New Zealand Wars and their aftermath (eg the Native Land Court) is another issue, and I think it is beyond doubt that individuals and groups (sometimes with government collusion) did conspire to obtain land from Maori tribes. Bear in mind that not all those who had land confiscated were involved in the fighting, and most of the wars werent originally "rebellion" against the crown. Hone Heke's protest for example, was almost certainly a reaction to his reduced economic power when the capital moved from his backyard down to Auckland.

[Polaris]

Maybe it's just because I live in Canada and am bombarded by American TV and culture, but it seems to me the vast majority of Conspiracy Theories in the civilized world are American ones. In fact, I can't think of any Canadian or French or British ones off the top of my head. The only international, first world conspiracy theory I can think of is people denying the holocaust. Of course I'm not a CT expert so if you know of any others please post them.

Why is that though? Are Americans just an inherantly distrustful culture as a result of the manner in which their country was born?

Talk to some Iranians sometime. You'll be hard pressed to find one who doesn't think the Mullahs/Mossad/CIA/British/Arabs are behind some plot.

[psy kick]

reptiles.

[gumboot]

Unfortunately yes, I am sure. I have had a number of surreal converstaions with acquaintances and coworkers where they flatly stated that the contents of the Treaty were other than they are.


That's not what I asked. I asked if you were sure that "plenty of pakeha" believed the text of the ToW was essentially a "sale" of land to the British Crown. I'm happy to accept some people believe this, but given that the ToW has been a standard part of the 3rd form Social Studies syllabus for a very long time, I am skeptical that "plenty" of people believe this.

I would say most caucasian New Zealanders (I'm totally opposed to the term "pakeha" by the way...) are aware of the text of the ToW, and more importantly are aware that the original Maori version and the original English version are not the same.

The "conspiracy theory" I referred to was as to whether this mistranslation was intential or accidental.

I've often heard it claimed that Europeans fairly bought land off Maori for "beads and blankets" (and indeed, in many cases they did, although usually it was muskets and blankets). I've never heard this claim being made in conjunction with the ToW.




Offering to prove them wrong by showing them a copy was met with contemptuous dismissal. These people are among those who are vehemently against the settlements made by the Waitangi tribunal.

Are you trying to infer something about people who are opposed to the Waitangi tribunal settlements?



Bear in mind that not all those who had land confiscated were involved in the fighting, and most of the wars werent originally "rebellion" against the crown. Hone Heke's protest for example, was almost certainly a reaction to his reduced economic power when the capital moved from his backyard down to Auckland.

No land was confiscated after the Flagstaff War.

Rebellion can have many causes... Heke's rebellion was instigated by economic depression - but this was as much due to increased government control - customs duties, banning the felling of Kauri, government control of land sales - as it was because of the movement of the capital.

In any event, most of the land confiscations were "justified" (some were, IMHO justified, many certainly were not) by the Kingi movement, which was certainly an act of rebellion.

-Andrew

[Carnivore]

That's not what I asked. I asked if you were sure that "plenty of pakeha" believed the text of the ToW was essentially a "sale" of land to the British Crown. I'm happy to accept some people believe this, but given that the ToW has been a standard part of the 3rd form Social Studies syllabus for a very long time, I am skeptical that "plenty" of people believe this.


You're right, I'm generalizing based on my experience. A better way to put it would be to say that I personally have run into "Treaty deniers" fairly often. I dont start TOW conversations with everyone I meet, and to encounter the same opinion more than a dozen times when it has come up in general conversation seemed to me to be "plenty". Far too many in fact, since as you point out, it is part of the secondary school syllabus.


Are you trying to infer something about people who are opposed to the Waitangi tribunal settlements?

Nope, not all. As we've all seen on this forum, people often choose to believe what they want to believe even when all the available evidence contradicts them. I think that some people on either side of the treaty settlement issue fall into this category. Same goes for any other political issue.

No land was confiscated after the Flagstaff War.

True, but the threat was explicitly made, and possibly would have been carried out if the war had ended decisively in favour of the British.


Rebellion can have many causes... Heke's rebellion was instigated by economic depression - but this was as much due to increased government control - customs duties, banning the felling of Kauri, government control of land sales - as it was because of the movement of the capital.

Absolutely, oversimplification on my part.



In any event, most of the land confiscations were "justified" (some were, IMHO justified, many certainly were not) by the Kingi movement, which was certainly an act of rebellion.

The Kingitanga movement certainly became the focal point for Maori rebellion against the Crown, but when it was first mooted surely it was at least as much a diplomatic effort in the eyes of many of it's proponents?

[gumboot]

A better way to put it would be to say that I personally have run into "Treaty deniers" fairly often. I dont start TOW conversations with everyone I meet


Aw come on, but it's such an EXCITING topic to discuss! ;)




Nope, not all. As we've all seen on this forum, people often choose to believe what they want to believe even when all the available evidence contradicts them. I think that some people on either side of the treaty settlement issue fall into this category. Same goes for any other political issue.

Amen to that. I don't think New Zealand is as politically polarised as, say, the United States, but we've still got a few people hanging off the deep end on a given issue.



The Kingitanga movement certainly became the focal point for Maori rebellion against the Crown, but when it was first mooted surely it was at least as much a diplomatic effort in the eyes of many of it's proponents?

Absolutely - Potatau (the first king - or "King Potato" as we remember him from school) wanted to deal with the British - and certainly this was the premise under which the position was created. However rebellious sorts exploited the position to their advantage.

-Andrew

[Father Dagon]

I recommend Focault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco. It's almost completley devoid of "americania", and that's quite refreshing.

Not to spoil the book, but there's an episode that quite succinctly sums up the book and the CT-think. ("What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves".)

[BPScooter]

I second that Eco recommendation--not one of his easier "reads" because it wanders through so much territory. But on the other hand that is the literary intent, I think, to keep the reader clutching at mysterious things. I particularly like his ability to mix modern sensibilities with ancient concepts and references. My first thought on reading the DaVinci Code was that Dan Brown managed to water down Eco enough to appeal to a wider and less-well-read audience. (and just to support that, I've always been a little set back from time to time when Eco puts things in Latin, or French, or some dialect...it doesn't seem like that's done as much as it used to be...and I consider myself modestly well-read).

[westprog]

I've never heard that.

We had the whole Jack The Ripper/Royal Family thing. Actually, the Royal Family's quite a good source for conspiracies.

There's the Russians murdering dissidents with Polonium. It's a crazy conspiracy theory which happens to be true.

[Dog Town]

(i personally believe that in at least the weeks following 9/11 ALL communication was intercepted and monitored)

I hope that was sarcastic! Kinda woo'osh, me thinks! Do you have ANY idea what that would entail, just storage wise? Hoping for sarcasm...

[funk de fino]

Also, the pre-9/11 London bombings being pulled off by the NWO/Illuminati/Masons/whatever.

to be truthful though these theories are spread from prisonplanet and infowars

not actually started over here

the princess di one seems to have a following of 1, mr al-fayed

[MG1962]

Another Australia one deals with the dismissal of Prime Minister Whitlam in 1975. An ardent anti nukes man, he was the one to sign of the end of our involvment in Vietnam.

Theorist believe one of two things - The US manipulated the Australian economy into such a bad state Whitlam would not be re-elected. Or the US put pressure on certain elements of our politcal process to trigger the dismissal of the government, even though most constitutional lawyers thought the decision unconstitutional

Oh and the tacky of tacky - the Martyn Bryant massacre. Conspiracy theorists claim that the Australian governmnet staged the slaughter as a way to introduce tighter gun control.

I have a very foggy memory of a famous British frogman who while diving to place a listening device on a Russian ship in the harbour, disapeared.

The Great Fire of London had a conspiracy theory attached to it for over 200 years. Seems elements within the government thought Catholics had set the fire. From memory a number where lynched.

One of my favorites - Chris Columbus actually had a map of the area he was going to. I've seen some interesting arguements about this, and to be honest I suspect this conspiracy theory is actually true.

Oh and my favorite, real conspiracy - The Numbers stations. Those enigmatic short wave radio stations that have various voices announcing endless streams of numbers

[funk de fino]

the latest attack at glasgow airport and failed attack in london has already been called false flags by infowars and the like

one truther actually stated that one of the men who carried out the attack ( who had 80% burns) was actually white and not asian

his source was a picture in the sunday mail newspaper, taken from behind, and in handcuffs with what remained of his skin hanging off

he then retracted this 2 days later when it was shown he was in fact asian

he also said that 5 gas bottles that were rigged up in the 4X4, would not have caused much harm if they had gone up anyway

try looking for this on youtube when people blow one up on purpose, mental

[Revolutionary91]

Another Australia one deals with the dismissal of Prime Minister Whitlam in 1975. An ardent anti nukes man, he was the one to sign of the end of our involvment in Vietnam.

Theorist believe one of two things - The US manipulated the Australian economy into such a bad state Whitlam would not be re-elected. Or the US put pressure on certain elements of our politcal process to trigger the dismissal of the government, even though most constitutional lawyers thought the decision unconstitutional

Oh and the tacky of tacky - the Martyn Bryant massacre. Conspiracy theorists claim that the Australian governmnet staged the slaughter as a way to introduce tighter gun control.

I have a very foggy memory of a famous British frogman who while diving to place a listening device on a Russian ship in the harbour, disapeared.

The Great Fire of London had a conspiracy theory attached to it for over 200 years. Seems elements within the government thought Catholics had set the fire. From memory a number where lynched.

One of my favorites - Chris Columbus actually had a map of the area he was going to. I've seen some interesting arguements about this, and to be honest I suspect this conspiracy theory is actually true.

Oh and my favorite, real conspiracy - The Numbers stations. Those enigmatic short wave radio stations that have various voices announcing endless streams of numbers

What is your thoughts on the theories around the Port Arthur massacre? My gut instinct is that they are rubbish but some of the evidence does not add up.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

In 1936, William Aberhart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Aberhart) was elected Premier of Alberta when the Social Credit Party wich he founded swept the provincial elections that year. The Social Credit Party was founded on the economic theories of C.H. Douglas wich are often promoted by people who are into big bankers conspiracy theories.

As part of his efforts to fight the big banks Aberhart instituted a number of off-the-wall plans to "return to the people, the sovereign right to issue credit and currency". Among these were the notorious "Prosperity Certificates", aka "Alberta Funny Money" and an attempted hostile take-over of all banking within Albertas borders. The only thing that managed to stick, was the foundation of the Alberta Treasury Branch (implemented with the aid of my grandfathers cousin, then Alberta Provincial Treasurer, Edgar W. Hinman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Hinman)), wich today operates as a standard bank owned as a Crown Corporation by the Alberta government.

These initiatives in turn led to rather heated political battles with the Canadian Federal government and the banks.

Here's the conspiracy theory; Aberharts life came to a sudden unexpected end while on a visit to Vancouver, British Columbia. During my own involvement with the Socreds during the 1990s, I spoke with some of the partys old die-hards, some of whom were old enough to have known Aberhart and they told me in rather hushed voices that Aberhart went to Vancouver to meet with leaders of the big banks but was instead killed by them and had it made to look like a heart attack.

They never offered me any evidence other than their own firmly held belief that is what went down.

As for my relative, the Provincial Treasurer, he lived to a ripe old age and passed away peacefully in 1994. I've spoken with both my grandfather and Edgar Hinmans grandson, my cousin Paul Hinman who is currently serving as the Member of Legislative Assembly for his grandpas old constituency and neither of them report there being any threats or mysterious accidents made against Edgar Hinman or others of our family for Edgars role in Albertas brief flirtation with defying the banking cartel.

[MG1962]

What is your thoughts on the theories around the Port Arthur massacre? My gut instinct is that they are rubbish but some of the evidence does not add up.

Well the problem is - Bryant pleaded guilty, hence the crown didn't need to present a case. So those unfamiliar with Australian law fear this is actually a cover up. Is there any particular element of the evidence that gives you pause

[Brainache]

Have we mentioned Harold Holt and the Chinese submarine?

http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/investigative/case5.asp

[Revolutionary91]

Well the problem is - Bryant pleaded guilty, hence the crown didn't need to present a case. So those unfamiliar with Australian law fear this is actually a cover up. Is there any particular element of the evidence that gives you pause


Yes he plead guilty but he only did so after 7 months in solitary confinement pleading his innocence. He never actually even gave a confession.

Theres huge problems with the evidence

Eyewitness testimony was inadmissible because they had seen Bryant in the paper. A witness who knew Bryant for 15 years swore it wasn't him.

There was no forensic evidence even though Bryant had supposedly been eating and drinking in the Broad Arrow cafe.

Bryant was left handed yet the witnesses say the shooter fired with his right hand, from the hip, mainly head shots.

Theres so much more.

[MG1962]

Yes he plead guilty but he only did so after 7 months in solitary confinement pleading his innocence. He never actually even gave a confession.

Theres huge problems with the evidence

Eyewitness testimony was inadmissible because they had seen Bryant in the paper. A witness who knew Bryant for 15 years swore it wasn't him.

There was no forensic evidence even though Bryant had supposedly been eating and drinking in the Broad Arrow cafe.

Bryant was left handed yet the witnesses say the shooter fired with his right hand, from the hip, mainly head shots.

Theres so much more.


But why would eyewitness testimony be considered. He didn't contest the charge. Why is there a need for forensic evidence of the cafe. He didn't contest the charge. What witnesses claim this. None were called before the crown, because he didn't contest any of the charges

See Bryant pleaded guilty. That means a case goes automatically to the sentencing stage. If he'd pleaded not guilty we may have seen the evidence that was available.

This the judgement as handed down.

http://www.geniac.net/portarthur/sentence.htm

And a second hand retelling of an eyewitness account

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1178340.htm

Finally this is an interview with Bryants lawyer - John Avery. Its the transcript from a radio show and begins a bit over halfway down the page.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/lawrpt/lstories/lr970923.htm

I just found this - again Avery, a few years later discussing re-opening the case etc etc

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s250296.htm

[Revolutionary91]

But why would eyewitness testimony be considered. He didn't contest the charge. Why is there a need for forensic evidence of the cafe. He didn't contest the charge. What witnesses claim this. None were called before the crown, because he didn't contest any of the charges

See Bryant pleaded guilty. That means a case goes automatically to the sentencing stage. If he'd pleaded not guilty we may have seen the evidence that was available.

This the judgement as handed down.

http://www.geniac.net/portarthur/sentence.htm

And a second hand retelling of an eyewitness account

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1178340.htm

Finally this is an interview with Bryants lawyer - John Avery. Its the transcript from a radio show and begins a bit over halfway down the page.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/lawrpt/lstories/lr970923.htm

I just found this - again Avery, a few years later discussing re-opening the case etc etc

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s250296.htm

As I say, he vehemently contested the charge for the first seven months while in illegal solitary confinement. Bear in mind that he had an IQ of 66 and the mental age of an 11 year old. He could be easily influenced to say anything after 7 months in solitary

There is no evidence against him and plenty of evidence to suggest soebody else did it. The video tape of him fleeing the cafe is clearly not authentic.

Here is a free book to download going into detail about the evidence\

http://www.badongo.com/file/536915

Here is a video about the massacre, including a member of staff from Port Arthur, who was first on the scene at the cafe and first to call the police. She doesnt think Bryant did it either.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5717060474039192216&q=port+arthur+duration%3Along&total=17&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[peteweaver]

One of the oldest conspiracy theories is the theory that all the evil in the world comes from the devil. And yet, no one has ever seen the devil...

[peteweaver]

There is a conspiracy theory about the 1999 apartment building explosions in russia. It was supposedly FSB not Chechens that were behind those explosions.

http://eng.terror99.ru/

There's atleast two films made on this subject.

"Disbelief"

http://www.disbelief-film.com/indexDE.htm

A video clip of Disbeliefs director Andrei Nekrasof speaking in Helsinki:
http://11syyskuu.net/video/andrei_nekrasov.wmv


Another film about the explosions: "Assassination of Russia" can watched here:
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_cover-ups.htm

There have also been the assassinations of journalists who have become involved with these theories, and also the assasination of Alexander Litvenenko...

[pannarrans]

For Dutch conspiracies the "Bijlmerramp" (can't post link but there is a Wiki entry) comes to mind. This was the crash of the EL-AL plane in a suburb of Amsterdam in 1992.

It isn't that the crash itself was thought to be part of a conspiracy but the whole aftermath is peppered with sightings of "men in white", people ascribing sickness to the cargo in the plane etc. Not so spectacular a theory.

Of course the murders of the politician Pim Fortuijn have led to speculations of conspiracies but these speculations were shortlived.

[MG1962]

For Dutch conspiracies the "Bijlmerramp" (can't post link but there is a Wiki entry) comes to mind. This was the crash of the EL-AL plane in a suburb of Amsterdam in 1992.

It isn't that the crash itself was thought to be part of a conspiracy but the whole aftermath is peppered with sightings of "men in white", people ascribing sickness to the cargo in the plane etc. Not so spectacular a theory.



Wow isn't that interesting - I just read the wiki entry. Is it true that depleted uranium is used for ballast on 767's - Although effiecient, surely it would be a very expensive solution

[Firestone]

Of course the murders of the politician Pim Fortuijn have led to speculations of conspiracies but these speculations were shortlived.There is a recent book by Ine Veen, "Moord namens 'de kroon'" ("Murder in name of 'The Crown'") that claims that the murder of Fortuyn was a conspiracy.

In the book, we have a second shooter, a Mossad team filming the murder, a a number of possible motives.

Sounds familiar. :)

Here (http://www.deepjournal.com/p/2/a/nl/628.html) an interview (in Dutch ;)) with a friend of the author, by well-known Dutch truther Daan de Wit.