If the mysteries of 9/11/2001,

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Were solved, even to the satisfaction of the 9/11 Scholars for truth as a natural effect of planes hitting buildings, and fires do you think the bickering would end?

[Pardalis]

Were solved, even to the satisfaction of the 9/11 Scholars for truth as a natural effect of planes hitting buildings, and fires do you think the bickering would end?

I don't think it could ever reach the satisfaction of the CTers. For them, there is a conspiracy no matter what the evidence. They have the exact same thought process as the Creationists. They just replace "God" with "conspiracy".

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Were solved, even to the satisfaction of the 9/11 Scholars for truth as a natural effect of planes hitting buildings, and fires do you think the bickering would end?

Honestly? No. Look at all the examples of things that meet the criteria of being considered (by the scientific method) as fact: evolution, cosmology, earth formation, etc They are still argued.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I don't think it could ever reach the satisfaction of the CTers. For them, there is a conspiracy no matter what the evidence. They have the exact same thought process as the Creationists. They just replace "God" with "conspiracy".

I do not know there is one explanation that they might agree with something that makes some of the conspiracist claims logical, as well as Something the physicist, Chemist, and engineers have never seen before.
Lets just say it has to do with the thermite puzzle does anyone know what causes thermite sparks and reactions?
I am just asking people to think for themselves for a little bit not recite stuff off an INTERNET page.
Can anyone solve what forms thermites in nature, engineers and materials designers have seen them by accident for years what causes them, The navy has had trouble with them, anyone look into it?
Find the answer to the thermite puzzle and you might find the answer to it all!

[Hishighness]

See, I've studied this informally for a while now and I've come to the conclusion that we on the sane side of the divide are making the mistake of thinking these people are reasonable just like us. It's understandable, we're reasonable and have open minds so we can't understand people that don't. But like Bill Maher said "People who aren't like us, REALLY aren't like us."

I think it's time we on the sane side of the divide set up a "Conspiracy Triage" where we examine who we can save and not waste time and energy on those we can't. I think the key to this is prevention.

I suggested to another group a flashy REAL truth movie like the "anti" Loose Change. One that's catchy and well animated like LC but that shows the real truth, using real science.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

See, I've studied this informally for a while now and I've come to the conclusion that we on the sane side of the divide are making the mistake of thinking these people are reasonable just like us. It's understandable, we're reasonable and have open minds so we can't understand people that don't. But like Bill Maher said "People who aren't like us, REALLY aren't like us."

I think it's time we on the sane side of the divide set up a "Conspiracy Triage" where we examine who we can save and not waste time and energy on those we can't. I think the key to this is prevention.

I suggested to another group a flashy REAL truth movie like the "anti" Loose Change. One that's catchy and well animated like LC but that shows the real truth, using real science.

What if people are jumping to conclusions, because the evidence they want is so simple that they can not see it. What if it only takes an honest search into the conditions present in the building to find the answers needed for both sides to agree on something.

People will tend to let their minds get the best of them, if they can not find the logical answers they seek.

[TK0001]

See, I've studied this informally for a while now and I've come to the conclusion that we on the sane side of the divide are making the mistake of thinking these people are reasonable just like us. It's understandable, we're reasonable and have open minds so we can't understand people that don't. But like Bill Maher said "People who aren't like us, REALLY aren't like us."

Definitely evident in the unprovoked reply I got from "Truthbearer" on another forum (see "I got a live one!" thread for further details):

So what does it feel like helping to support terrorists and criminals and liars TK? I feel terribly bad for people like you if you are just an ordinary citizen and actually I feel just as bad if you are actually working for these people because either way, you're helping them cover up their lies for them. Your sides psuedo-theories have been debunked and real logic over rules you. It's ok though because ultimately you'll be given the mark and you'll likely gleefully accept it in your own ignorance and then God's wrath will be upon you.

Don't say you weren't warned because your ignorance will not save you from your own destruction.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Definitely evident in the unprovoked reply I got from "Truthbearer" on another forum (see "I got a live one!" thread for further details):

What if it is shown that an old country boy from Kentucky had the answer all along, and no one would listen to him.

What if it is shown without a doubt that there are things both sides did not know?
What if something totally new is discovered?

These are just what ifs, but what if it does happen?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

What if it is shown that an old country boy from Kentucky had the answer all along, and no one would listen to him.

What if it is shown without a doubt that there are things both sides did not know?
What if something totally new is discovered?

These are just what ifs, but what if it does happen?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I will say that I stand by the scientific method. It is self-correcting, and deals with objective, verifiable evidence. If such evidence comes to light, I hope I would examine it without confirmational/observational bias.

[westphalia]

But like Bill Maher said "People who aren't like us, REALLY aren't like us."

Most sensible folks aren't like Bill Maher. I agree, though, that there is no hope in expecting CTers to ever arrive at level-headed sensibility.

In the CT world, it isn't the quality of the evidence, it's the nature of the charge, and how that charge reinforces their worldview.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Most sensible folks aren't like Bill Maher. I agree, though, that there is no hope in expecting CTers to ever arrive at level-headed sensibility.

In the CT world, it isn't the quality of the evidence, it's the nature of the charge, and how that charge reinforces their worldview.

I agree with some of what you are saying but I have also let a few of them know what will be released soon and even they were shocked at the real evidence.
Maybe it will bring about a time when people can think logically for themselves again.

For example a simple experiment, very simple.
http://chainsawsanders.com/Thermite1.jpg
Do you think that will start a thermite reaction?

[Hishighness]

Bill Maher is the man.

[defaultdotxbe]

Were solved, even to the satisfaction of the 9/11 Scholars for truth as a natural effect of planes hitting buildings, and fires do you think the bickering would end?

i asked that at the LC forums and was banned for it

essentially the replies i did get amounted to "we are not wrong, those who disagree with us are wrong"

[Crazy Chainsaw]

i asked that at the LC forums and was banned for it

essentially the replies i did get amounted to "we are not wrong, those who disagree with us are wrong"


If they not wrong what happened to my toy,
http://chainsawsanders.com/makingAluminumBoil.jpg

I play with toy, I put aluminum in toy Aluminum glow, red, Orange, and yellow.

I make inclusions,
http://chainsawsanders.com/fuel.JPG
I put them in toy, big big Army plane pass over toy, toy go boom, at time think hydrogen reaction, only thing I could think of.
Iron Oxide and Aluminum not go boom never go boom before. Even lost camera and recordings of previous tests, almost lost me.
No water no mosture no source of hydrogen reaction, why toy no more?
I still intend on making new toy not hard toy built from junk less than 45 bucks total from metal scrap yard.

[defaultdotxbe]

If they not wrong what happened to my toy
unless the govt blew up your toy i dont think your question makes sense

[Crazy Chainsaw]

unless the govt blew up your toy i dont think your question makes sense

Think about it a while use your head, the only thing in the toy was Iron Oxide and Aluminum. Try as I might I could not find any source of hydrogen for that size a reaction. So what made the toy go boom, it is supposed to be impossible for it to go boom, thermite can not explode can it?

[defaultdotxbe]

Think about it a while use your head, the only thing in the toy was Iron Oxide and Aluminum. Try as I might I could not find any source of hydrogen for that size a reaction. So what made the toy go boom, it is supposed to be impossible for it to go boom, thermite can not explode can it?
i never said thermite cant explode, ive always said its not an explosive (theres a difference)

for example, alka-selzer can explode, but its not an explosive (and i dont think it would be very useful for CD)

[Crazy Chainsaw]

i never said thermite cant explode, ive always said its not an explosive (theres a difference)

for example, alka-selzer can explode, but its not an explosive (and i dont think it would be very useful for CD)


Yes but alka-selzer, not high explosive, any Chemical reaction can be high explosive it he compounds are mixed fast enough to provide a sufficent chain reaction.

Did you notice my thermite was not dust but large 3/8 to one half inch inclusions, the very thing that would form in a burning building form burning Steel, and Burning Aluminum?

[defaultdotxbe]

ok, but how does this suppor the idea that the govt blew up the towers?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

ok, but how does this suppor the idea that the govt blew up the towers?

It does not, it just show that there might be more than either side knows to the story, maybe people do not have the complete picture from either side.
I can not say any more a story on this will be out soon, I think people on both sides will be shocked at the two common factors between the buildings, including building 7.
Maybe this is a misunderstanding because something has been missing, something that has never been seen before.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

ok, but how does this suppor the idea that the govt blew up the towers?

I don't think it necessarily supports either side. I think what CC is trying to show is that a thermite like reaction could happen naturally in the building, under the given conditions, and do so in a rapid, "explosive" manner. Now, I could be misinterpretting, as before, CC did make reference to sonics and he (assuming here, sorry if you aren't a he) may be implying that a sonic-type weapon was used to initiate a similar reaction. Am I completely off base here CC?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I don't think it necessarily supports either side. I think what CC is trying to show is that a thermite like reaction could happen naturally in the building, under the given conditions, and do so in a rapid, "explosive" manner. Now, I could be misinterpretting, as before, CC did make reference to sonics and he (assuming here, sorry if you aren't a he) may be implying that a sonic-type weapon was used to initiate a similar reaction. Am I completely off base here CC?

I think you should take a look at fluid dynamics the bubble effect, the choking effect, and vortex collapses, the choking effect allows mice to make ultra sound by moving air though a Chimney like sturcture at high speeds.

[Darth Rotor]

I don't think it necessarily supports either side. I think what CC is trying to show is that a thermite like reaction could happen naturally in the building, under the given conditions, and do so in a rapid, "explosive" manner. Now, I could be misinterpretting, as before, CC did make reference to sonics and he (assuming here, sorry if you aren't a he) may be implying that a sonic-type weapon was used to initiate a similar reaction. Am I completely off base here CC?
If CC asserts that aircraft were flying over his house at supersonic speeds, I'd need to see the lat long of his house and see if it was under a MOA.

If not, he's selling soap.

DR

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I think you should take a look at fluid dynamics the bubble effect, the choking effect, and vortex collapses, the choking effect allows mice to make ultra sound by moving air though a Chimney like sturcture at high speeds.

My extent of familiarity with thermodynamics is limited to hearing my roomie bitch about it in college. Sorry :( DBA here.

[defaultdotxbe]

I don't think it necessarily supports either side. I think what CC is trying to show is that a thermite like reaction could happen naturally in the building, under the given conditions, and do so in a rapid, "explosive" manner. Now, I could be misinterpretting, as before, CC did make reference to sonics and he (assuming here, sorry if you aren't a he) may be implying that a sonic-type weapon was used to initiate a similar reaction. Am I completely off base here CC?
well my that i made a few posts ago was that they wont acept any explanation that doesnt show them as being 100% right ("the govt did it and this is how" kind of thing)

so natually they wont accept a "natural" thermite reaction any more than they will accept that terrorists crashed planes into the buildings to bring them down

[Crazy Chainsaw]

If CC asserts that aircraft were flying over his house at supersonic speeds, I'd need to see the lat long of his house and see if it was under a MOA.

If not, he's selling soap.

DR

Where is the 101st air borne based, and the plane does not have to fly at supersonic speeds to create air turbulence. It just has to create a disruption in the air.

I am sure that mice move at supersonic speeds when they create ultra sound, that is why my cat is so tired from chasing them.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1524959

[defaultdotxbe]

"ultrasonic sounds" and "supersonic speeds" are 2 very different things

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

[translator mode]
I believe CC is saying that any wave in a medium, if forced to have its amplitude shortened will have its frequency increased and thus high energy waves can be created without having to travel at high speeds.
[/translator mode]

How'd I do?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

"ultrasonic sounds" and "supersonic speeds" are 2 very different things

Exactly we are surounded every day by sounds we will never hear from natural causes. Such as the choking effect, in Chimney like structures.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

[translator mode]
I believe CC is saying that any wave in a medium, if forced to have its amplitude shortened will have its frequency increased and thus high energy waves can be created without having to travel at high speeds.
[/translator mode]

How'd I do?

Basicly you got it now look up chemistry, Ultra sound and reactive metals and you might google something of interest to you.

[defaultdotxbe]

i never heard a sonic boom coming from a chimney though

[Crazy Chainsaw]

i never heard a sonic boom coming from a chimney though

You will never hear ultra sound, sound so fast it is not in your hearing range, you can not hear it, no human has!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

i never heard a sonic boom coming from a chimney though

Matter of miscommunication through bad terminology. CC's not talking sonic boom, but rather high frequency waves.

[Darth Rotor]

Where is the 101st air borne based, and the plane does not have to fly at supersonic speeds to create air turbulence. It just has to create a disruption in the air.

I am sure that mice move at supersonic speeds when they create ultra sound, that is why my cat is so tired from chasing them.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1524959
Air turbulence from an aircraft flying above you (wing tip vortices) are generally disippated into the airmass before it reaches the ground, unless you are living directly under the approach or departure path to an airport . . . or helicopters are hovering over your house at less than 500.'

Hey Crazy, why don't you use a bit of Google? The 101st Airborne/Air Assault is based in Fort Campbell, KY. Look it up on a map, if you know how to read one. Those soldiers tend to fly about in Blackhawk and Chinook Helicopters when doing air assault training.

The 82 Airborne Division (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/82abn.htm) is based in Fort Bragg, NC. The paratroopers from that unit tend to leap out of C-141 and C-130 aircraft, which are sub sonic. Not sure if they will jump from C-17 or C-5, memory hazy. (Any Hooah sorts in the audience, please chime in.)

The rotor blade tips (fastest part of a rotor blade on a helicopter) travel at subsonic speeds. There are sever vibration problems of a blade gets to transonic velocities. You might want to research the following genius: Igor Sikorsky.

Why do you feel that ultrasonic energy is getting to you from military aircraft? Please break this down, step by step, from wave/pressure propagation to arrival at your house.

Will you please elaborate on that?

DR

[Darth Rotor]

You will never hear ultra sound, sound so fast it is not in your hearing range, you can not hear it, no human has!
High frequency sound is doing what? You do realize that sonic energy attenuates spherically in air, unless there is an environmental ducting condition, right? Do you understand "attenuate?"

You ability to articulate what you are concerned about quite frankly sucks. How about this: you take the time to flesh out these little sound bytes you are throwing out.

DR

[Pardalis]

It does not, it just show that there might be more than either side knows to the story, maybe people do not have the complete picture from either side.

Do you have any exprertise in structural engeneering? Did you read the NIST report? Most people find it conclusive.

I can not say any more a story on this will be out soon, I think people on both sides will be shocked at the two common factors between the buildings, including building 7.
Maybe this is a misunderstanding because something has been missing, something that has never been seen before.

What are you talking about? Do you have a scoop?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The triggering energy wave does not spacificly have to be ultra sonic, loud music also works, and how is the equipment of the 101st transported by sled? Or by hercules aircraft?
Also ultra sonics travel rapidly though metals and solids, slower though liquids, and do attenuate in air as you stated in a spherical pattern.
Ps my device was already heated by wave mortion from movement, so ultra sonics did not play as big of an effect in that as it would in a building.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Do you have any exprertise in structural engeneering? Did you read the NIST report? Most people find it conclusive.



What are you talking about? Do you have a scoop?

Yes I read the NIST report, I did not find it that conclusive, it was very informative but not complete, there is stuff that was not in the report, that might make a great deal of difference.

[Pardalis]

there is stuff that was not in the report, that might make a great deal of difference.

Which is?

[Darth Rotor]

and how is the equipment of the 101st transported by sled? Or by hercules aircraft?
Depending on the material and the size of the operation, the equipment is transported by Blackhawk, by Chinook, by truck, by HMMVV and some by C-130 provided by the Air Force, from a variety of bases where C-130's are based, none of which are in Fort Campbell. However, IIRC, the 101st has in its ToE some C-12's and EC-12. (Basically, King Airs, two engine passenger planes holding up to 8 passengers or a bunch of radios and antennae.)

DR

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Which is?

Have you read Prof, Eagar in the Conical of higher education?
He is the one who talked me into this, and he is the one who helped me trying to find the answer to the puzzle of what the molten material was outside the building.
Then I got intouch with Dr. Greening, and Mr. Ferran, I have been doing the grunt work for them. I can not tell it all until the article is out.

[Pardalis]

Have you read Prof, Eagar in the Conical of higher education?
He is the one who talked me into this, and he is the one who helped me trying to find the answer to the puzzle of what the molten material was outside the building.
Then I got intouch with Dr. Greening, and Mr. Ferran, I have been doing the grunt work for them. I can not tell it all until the article is out.

Link? References?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Depending on the material and the size of the operation, the equipment is transported by Blackhawk, by Chinook, by truck, by HMMVV and some by C-130 provided by the Air Force, from a variety of bases where C-130's are based, none of which are in Fort Campbell. However, IIRC, the 101st has in its ToE some C-12's and EC-12. (Basically, King Airs, two engine passenger planes holding up to 8 passengers or a bunch of radios and antennae.)

DR

Yes but the base has an air strip for the base that is capable of landing C-130s and every time they are deployed they fly right over here.
I never said the planes were based at fort campbell now did I, you are being to tecnical.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Link? References?

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=j1dxcwnt8x627gjyg5jn728rfkn21t9l

[Pardalis]

Have you read Prof, Eagar in the Conical of higher education?
He is the one who talked me into this, and he is the one who helped me trying to find the answer to the puzzle of what the molten material was outside the building.
Then I got intouch with Dr. Greening, and Mr. Ferran, I have been doing the grunt work for them. I can not tell it all until the article is out.

Ah, I see... I Googled M. Eagar, and this is what I found:

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=j1dxcwnt8x627gjyg5jn728rfkn21t9l

So Mr. Eagar has become reluctantly familiar with Mr. Jones's hypothesis, and he is not impressed. For example, he says, the cascade of yellow-hot particles coming out of the south tower could be any number of things: a butane can igniting, sparks from an electrical arc, molten aluminum and water forming a hydrogen reaction — or, perhaps most likely, a spontaneous, completely accidental thermite reaction.

Is this the new info we are supposed to have soon? That there was spontaneaous thermite reactions when the towers fell?

[Gravy]

Allow me to refer people to this post by Crazy Chainsaw: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61590

CC, you're obviously very excited about your findings. It sounds like interesting stuff. But I find your guessing games to be tiresome.

Let us know when the paper is published. We'll all be glad to read it.

[Pardalis]

Allow me to refer people to this post by Crazy Chainsaw: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61590


Oh, I must have overseen it. :o

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Ah, I see... I Googled M. Eagar, and this is what I found:

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=j1dxcwnt8x627gjyg5jn728rfkn21t9l


Is this the new info we are supposed to have soon? That there was spontaneaous thermite reactions when the towers fell?

More than that, but you will have to wait I can not tell you all the story, thermite has some new tricks, and so does sound on the steel in a building, and Dr. Jones does not know that it looks like it might make his devices impossible to bolt to the metal beams.
Especially in a building full of noisy diesel engines.

[Darth Rotor]

Yes but the base has an air strip for the base that is capable of landing C-130s and every time they are deployed they fly right over here. I never said the planes were based at fort campbell now did I, you are being to tecnical.
And your point is what? You write like a wanker (http://www.guidenet.net/resources/wanker.html) a good sign that you have nothing of substance to say. Your discussion of materials is intriguing, but you hedge due to alleged publication pending. Do you see the little red flag flying over my head? You don't? OK, I'll tell you what it is. It's my "BS" flag.

Please give me a reason to lower it.

CC, what altitude do the C-130's fly at when they pass over you house? How are you measuring that? What, I ask again, is the Lat / Long of your house?

If I didn't have to wring the details out of you by brute force, this conversation would have been shorter.

I am forced to presume, absent further evidence to the contrary, that you are a clueless, ground bound, two dimensional moron as pertains to aviation. Please, please, present evidence that renders my assessment incorrect, and allow me to dispose of that presumption.

Good day to you, until you can articulate your message with the competence exceeding that of an eighth grade child prodigy.

DR

PS: "Intense Pressure Wave" from C-130's flying over your house?
That is true but you only need the sound to break the outer coating of the Aluminum continually so that it will burn you do not need deep capitation in the fluid just the continual disruption of the protective layer on top any intense pressure wave does that.

Break the coating the Aluminum itself auto heats from constant re exposure.

To Oxygen or CO2.

Also since CO2 is less reactive the Aluminum coating does not form as well. If you actually use intense ultra sound the structure of he Iron oxide is broken before it becomes liquid.
So you would simply have a limited thermite reaction inside the fluid that would only cause limited heating and expansion
None of that comes from a C-130 flying over your house.

DR

[Pardalis]

More than that, but you will have to wait I can not tell you all the story, thermite has some new tricks, and so does sound on the steel in a building, and Dr. Jones does not know that it looks like it might make his devices impossible to bolt to the metal beams.
Especially in a building full of noisy diesel engines.

Ah... Now I understand. Now that I've read this thread that I missed (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61590), it makes more sense!:)

And in answer to your OP, I don't think this "new evidence" will change the CTers mind. If this new info happens to pan out, I think it might even help the CTers...

They'll say: "See, we told you there was thermite!"

[Pardalis]

You write like a wanker (http://www.guidenet.net/resources/wanker.html) a good sign that you have nothing of substance to say.

Why so rude Darth Rotor? Maybe Crazy Chainsaw's first language isn't English, give him a break.

[Hutch]

Why so rude Darth Rotor? Maybe Crazy Chainsaw's first language isn't English, give him a break.

Concur. Crazy may be proven to be crazy in the end, but I am willing to suspend judgement for at least a few days until this "article" is made public and we can judge for ourselves.

It sounds to me that they are looking into the possibliity of naturally-forming thermite (which has been postulated before, IIRC) and various use of sounds to set it off without a fuse (althought wouldn't fire do the duty?).

As for CC's point, if there is good science in it, I could see it being accepted by most skeptics as another link in the chain of causation for the collapse, albeit the buildings would probably have cokme down without it. For the CT-types, it will mean the Government/Silverstien deliberately constructed the buildings that way so that they would fall when needed by "The Master Plan"

IMHO as always.

[Darth Rotor]

Why so rude Darth Rotor? Maybe Crazy Chainsaw's first language isn't English, give him a break.
No, no breaks. No mercy.

If there is something of substance to say, it is worth taking the time to say it with some clarity. His style is brevity without substance. That is an obstacle to communication due to lack of attention by the writer of the words.

Like you, I look forward to him finally getting to the point, if ever. If his experiments and experiences are indeed related to the material properties in question at the WTC, they pose a fascinating insight: if he can pass them on intelligibly.

I am not betting the over on that one.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

1. Crazy may be proven to be crazy in the end, but I am willing to suspend judgement for at least a few days until this "article" is made public and we can judge for ourselves.

2. It sounds to me that they are looking into the possibliity of naturally-forming thermite (which has been postulated before, IIRC) and various use of sounds to set it off without a fuse (althought wouldn't fire do the duty?).

For point 1, bless your patience.

For point 2, noted, see my comment in the PS about C-130's.

DR

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The problem is it contains to much data, for the paper to print in this weeks paper do to all the political wrangling on Maui and the author did not want to cut the story down.
As he said it is good enough to wait for.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Concur. Crazy may be proven to be crazy in the end, but I am willing to suspend judgement for at least a few days until this "article" is made public and we can judge for ourselves.

It sounds to me that they are looking into the possibliity of naturally-forming thermite (which has been postulated before, IIRC) and various use of sounds to set it off without a fuse (althought wouldn't fire do the duty?).

As for CC's point, if there is good science in it, I could see it being accepted by most skeptics as another link in the chain of causation for the collapse, albeit the buildings would probably have cokme down without it. For the CT-types, it will mean the Government/Silverstien deliberately constructed the buildings that way so that they would fall when needed by "The Master Plan"

IMHO as always.

No the problem is that finding out what I found out required me to set of some explosive thermite and it sent burning aluminum into the air, and even with a welding helmet my eyes were damaged, I can not really see the computer screen well now.
I miss judged the strength of the reaction thinking it would be less explosive, I got ten times what I had expected.
However it proves Dr. Steven Jones does not know a thing about thermite, since he does not know the trigger he did a ton of useless experiments that could never prove a thing. Also if I am right then controlled demolition is impossible.

[chacal]

Were solved, even to the satisfaction of the 9/11 Scholars for truth as a natural effect of planes hitting buildings, and fires do you think the bickering would end?

You must apply the first law of conspiracy theory:

1. A conspiracy theory can never be proven wrong because any evidence against it only ads another layer to it.

[gtc]

Plus there is always the fall back position that, even if the official story is true, all it proves is that the USA recruited Al Qaeda to stage 911.

[gumboot]

I have to say I'm at a loss here...

Can I just clarify...

Is the claim that due to the situation in the WTC thermite formed naturally, and then some sort of air turbulance resulted in an explosive thermite reaction that resulted in the building's collapse?

CC is that what you are saying?

-Andrew

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I have to say I'm at a loss here...

Can I just clarify...

Is the claim that due to the situation in the WTC thermite formed naturally, and then some sort of air turbulance resulted in an explosive thermite reaction that resulted in the building's collapse?

CC is that what you are saying?

-Andrew

Basically a very good assumption, and Dr. Jones has no Idea how simple it is to find the thermite trigger, and the cause of aluminum burning.
There is one energy form that Dr. Jones completely Ignores because it is not and has never been a major factor in his work on solar physics.
The same thing that forms thermite weakens steel, and also sets off Dr. Jones's devices ahead of Sequence he now has to redesign his devices, by supporting them from springs in a near total vacuum,

[gumboot]

Basically a very good assumption, and Dr. Jones has no Idea how simple it is to find the thermite trigger, and the cause of aluminum burning.
There is one energy form that Dr. Jones completely Ignores because it is not and has never been a major factor in his work on solar physics.
The same thing that forms thermite weakens steel, and also sets off Dr. Jones's devices ahead of Sequence he now has to redesign his devices, by supporting them from springs in a near total vacuum,


I fail to see how air compression can set off a thermal reaction. It doesn't seem plausible to be. If this were the case there would be thermal reactions going off left right and centre, and it would be a well established fact of science.

-Andrew

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I fail to see how air compression can set off a thermal reaction. It doesn't seem plausible to be. If this were the case there would be thermal reactions going off left right and centre, and it would be a well established fact of science.

-Andrew

You seem to be suffering form the same problem Dr. Jones has the belief that you know everything and can prove it.

Yes it would be a well established fact of science, would it not.

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/pdf/sciamer8980.pdf

[Brainache]

Hey CC
I hope your eyes get better.
I also hope that all the work you have done for Prof Eager et al is recognised.
It may amount to nothing, or it may amount to something. Either way it looks interesting to me.
I am not a scientist so I can't comment on any of the experiments or the conclusions drawn from them, except to say: "wearing protective gear is always a good idea when handling molten metals".
Good luck to you.
Cheers
Andy.
PS When you get the Nobel prize, don't forget the little people.:)

[chipmunk stew]

The problem is it contains to much data, for the paper to print in this weeks paper do to all the political wrangling on Maui and the author did not want to cut the story down.
As he said it is good enough to wait for.
Sorry if I simply missed it mentioned elsewhere, but who is the author and what publication will be printing this article?

[gumboot]

You seem to be suffering form the same problem Dr. Jones has the belief that you know everything and can prove it.

Yes it would be a well established fact of science, would it not.

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/pdf/sciamer8980.pdf


Okay thanks. I understand what you're getting at a bit better now. It may just be bad english, but your other posts lead me to conclude you are being purposefully vague in your "explanations".

I don't recall ever claiming to know everything - quite the opposite, I believe I expressed a lack of understanding of what you were saying.

So, to better summarise your hypothesis (please correct me if I am wrong)

Fires in the WTC caused liquid aluminium oxide to form on exposed oxidised iron beams.

low pressure sound waves then caused cavitations in the liquid aliminium oxide which produced sufficient heat to initiate a thermite reaction which promptly melted through the beams and resulted in a collapse of the towers.

Is that correct?

-Andrew

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Sorry if I simply missed it mentioned elsewhere, but who is the author and what publication will be printing this article?

It will first be anounced in the Maui News, By Prof. Eagar's brother, Mr Henry Eagar.
Then a more detailed article will be out, I believe by Dr, Greening.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Fires in the WTC caused liquid aluminium oxide to form on exposed oxidised iron beams

No it could not have formed on the beams, but aluminum burns to wave action continually breaking the surface coating of Aluminum oxide.

It is not long before it starts steel to reacting with oxygen in the air, actually burning the steel, into Iron oxide that falls into the Aluminum forming inclusions. There are also other oxides in the building that would form them as well and you have to remember the plane hitting the buildings creates a sand blasting effect on the steel.

low pressure sound waves then caused cavitations in the liquid aliminium oxide which produced sufficient heat to initiate a thermite reaction which promptly melted through the beams and resulted in a collapse of the towers.

You might want to read this,http://http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-04202006-171345/unrestricted/Dustin_Osborne_Thesis_Final.pdf
especially the explosive effect if the fuel and Oxidant are combined to quickly in solid form, what would combining them in liquid do?
What would ultra sound, created in the first reaction do as it propogated though the liquid?
What would ultra sound from the impact, traveling down a perfect sound conduit do to DR. Jones's devices, if they are not sonicly shielded in a vacuum bottle suspended by springs?

[Gravy]

No it could not have formed on the beams, but aluminum burns to wave action continually breaking the surface coating of Aluminum oxide.

It is not long before it starts steel to reacting with oxygen in the air, actually burning the steel, into Iron oxide that falls into the Aluminum forming inclusions. There are also other oxides in the building that would form them as well and you have to remember the plane hitting the buildings creates a sand blasting effect on the steel.


You might want to read this,http://http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-04202006-171345/unrestricted/Dustin_Osborne_Thesis_Final.pdf
especially the explosive effect if the fuel and Oxidant are combined to quickly in solid form, what would combining them in liquid do?
What would ultra sound, created in the first reaction do as it propogated though the liquid?
What would ultra sound from the impact, traveling down a perfect sound conduit do to DR. Jones's devices, if they are not sonicly shielded in a vacuum bottle suspended by springs?

I don't understand the relevance. If it's hot enough for large amounts of molten aluminum to be interacting with bare steel, it's probably hot enough for the steel to weaken and buckle on its own. Nor were any incendiary cut marks or slag found on any of the steel, AFAIK. What am I missing?

ETA: Also, it sounds as though you're describing the north tower only, a building on fire that's affected by the plane hitting the south tower. How does your idea fit in with the south tower or WTC 7?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I don't understand the relevance. If it's hot enough for large amounts of molten aluminum to be interacting with bare steel, it's probably hot enough for the steel to weaken and buckle on its own. Nor were any incendiary cut marks or slag found on any of the steel, AFAIK. What am I missing?

ETA: Also, it sounds as though you're describing the north tower only, a building on fire that's affected by the plane hitting the south tower. How does your idea fit in with the south tower or WTC 7?

You are not missing much,
Just (Massive explosive force), and hot burning metal traveling at high speeds.

Steel will burn at room temperature if an oxidant is provided I think they call it rusting, also the highest temperature is along the floor where the aluminum would pool, so it takes time to raise the temperature, and burn the steel, it is a slow reaction on the outside of the steel all you have to do is have something that sheds the protective Iron oxide coating continuously the same as in the Aluminum.

Same sound effects in both towers, generators, sending ultra sound though out building 7, Also generators cause magnetic effects and Sulfur from Diesel fuel fires.
Same thing at Pentagon same effect only new construction insulation on steel protects it, but aluminum and other reactive metals in plane burn up in fire.
Would that answer any questions if I am right?
PS. high explosives shear metal they do not make neat cuts, but have been known to shear welded joints evenly.
Was anything contiguously welded in the world trade center?
I am sorry I must just be crazy!

[Darth Rotor]

Same sound effects in both towers, generators, sending ultra sound though out building 7, Also generators cause magnetic effects and Sulfur from Diesel fuel fires.
Diesel generators in buildings tend to be sound mounted to reduce noise transmission into office spaces, however, I'd have to look at the specs on the WTC generators to know how they were installed. They also have to have an exhaust shaft to vent diesel engine exhaust out of the building, or OSHA cuts the chord on them.

Food for thought.

DR

[Pardalis]

Crazy Chainsaw, is "spontaneous thermite" a commonly occuring phenomenon? Has it ever happened before? Would control demolition experts frequently come across such a phenomenon, or be aware of it?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Crazy Chainsaw, is "spontaneous thermite" a commonly occuring phenomenon? Has it ever happened before? Would control demolition experts frequently come across such a phenomenon, or be aware of it?

Thermite sparks are common, and thermite reactions between metals have been seen in Buildings before, and it is the reason the navy abandoned most aluminum hulled ships. Plus most buildings do not have massive Chimneys and tons of aluminum in them.

[gumboot]

What would ultra sound from the impact, traveling down a perfect sound conduit do to DR. Jones's devices, if they are not sonicly shielded in a vacuum bottle suspended by springs?


While I can see how such scenarios could potentially occur in the WTC scenario, I find it unlikely that such phenomena was widespread, given the very specific accumulation of elements that has to occur to produce the reaction.

Certainly I can't see it happening in extensive enough quantities to cause global collapse on its own - at best it would collapse the floors at the impact site. Thus you are still left with needing an explanation for global collapse.

In addition, there does not appear to be any evidence at all of widespread thermite reactions in the rubble pile from WTC, however NIST's reports quite excellently explain everything necessary to provide a sequence of events leading to global collapse.

Basically, I have no reason to believe what you're saying couldn't happen.
However, I also have no reason to believe what you're saying DID happen.

-Andrew

[gumboot]

and it is the reason the navy abandoned most aluminum hulled ships.


Since when were warships made out of aluminium?

-Andrew

[Pardalis]

Thermite sparks are common, and thermite reactions between metals have been seen in Buildings before, and it is the reason the navy abandoned most aluminum hulled ships. Plus most buildings do not have massive Chimneys and tons of aluminum in them.

I see. Do you think the experts of the NIST report, if they had studied the collapse itself (instead of the events leading to it) would have come across it?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Diesel generators in buildings tend to be sound mounted to reduce noise transmission into office spaces, however, I'd have to look at the specs on the WTC generators to know how they were installed. They also have to have an exhaust shaft to vent diesel engine exhaust out of the building, or OSHA cuts the chord on them.

Food for thought.

DR

That will not help for ultra sound because the waves are still transmitted though the air some what, and though the materials of the mountings themselves.
The Sound mountings are not designed to protect against ultra sound, because no one hears it, no one thinks about it.
The solids of the buildings themselves are the resonators and since it is never heard, no one shields against it.
Even the fuel lines to the engines would act as conduits for it to interact with the building.
What vented the fumes from the burning High sulfur diesel in building 7 did OSHA approve an exhaust fan to vent the smoke from the fires?
No one has ever looked into sound energy and its effects in fires, that is the problem the only thing that ties the mysteries together is sound energy.

It is also the only thing left out of Dr. Jones's experiments that are supposed to prove Dr. Greening's theories on natural thermite wrong.

[Gravy]

You are not missing much,
Just (Massive explosive force), and hot burning metal traveling at high speeds.

Steel will burn at room temperature if an oxidant is provided I think they call it rusting, also the highest temperature is along the floor where the aluminum would pool, so it takes time to raise the temperature, and burn the steel, it is a slow reaction on the outside of the steel all you have to do is have something that sheds the protective Iron oxide coating continuously the same as in the Aluminum.

Same sound effects in both towers, generators, sending ultra sound though out building 7, Also generators cause magnetic effects and Sulfur from Diesel fuel fires.
Same thing at Pentagon same effect only new construction insulation on steel protects it, but aluminum and other reactive metals in plane burn up in fire.
Would that answer any questions if I am right?
PS. high explosives shear metal they do not make neat cuts, but have been known to shear welded joints evenly.
Was anything contiguously welded in the world trade center?
I am sorry I must just be crazy!
Well, I'm stumped. I guess I'll have to wait for the paper. Generators sending ultrasound throughout building 7? The FEMA WTC 7 report says that emergency generators probably kicked on for a time after the Con Ed substation lost power at 9:59. But is there evidence that they stayed on when the fires were large enough to create large pools of aluminum? And what reason is there to believe that they created ultrasonic vibrations strong enough to cause cavitation in molten aluminum? And how much aluminum was available there?

And where is the evidence of huge explosions in WTC 7?

Magnetic effects? And? :confused:

Yes, high explosives can shear metal. But what quantity of loose "thermite" can shear huge steel columns without also blasting out windows and floors? And where are the signs of sheared columns with aluminum blasted over it? And why aren't these HUGE explosions evident in videos?

Sorry, but for me none of this makes sense so far.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

They would have, all it would take is model of the Chimney effect in the building, that is why this torch will form thermite reactions,
http://chainsawsanders.com/natural.JPG

And this one will not no matter what I do.

http://chainsawsanders.com/Oxy1.JPG

You can see the difference in the picture something about the choking effect of air, passing though openings. Creating collapsing vortexes.

[gumboot]

No one has ever looked into sound energy and its effects in fires, that is the problem the only thing that ties the mysteries together is sound energy.

And herein lies your problem. There are no mysteries.

Aircraft crashed into the buildings at high speed, severing structural columns, stripping steel of fire-proofing material, and drenching multiple floors in burning jet fuel.

These fires then burned through floors crammed full of high-hydrocarbon fuel sources.

The ensuing inferno weakened the exposed steel that was already trying to compensate for severed columns.

The floor trusses began to sag as they weakened, pulling the perimeter columns inwards. At a critical point the columns gave way, sending the thousands upon thousands of tonnes of material that constituted the upper floors crushing down on the rest of the building with obliterating (and rapidly increasing) force. A global pancaking collapse ensued.

No mystery. It's all very simple.

-Andrew

[Cuddles]

You are not missing much,
Just (Massive explosive force), and hot burning metal traveling at high speeds.

Steel will burn at room temperature if an oxidant is provided I think they call it rusting, also the highest temperature is along the floor where the aluminum would pool, so it takes time to raise the temperature, and burn the steel, it is a slow reaction on the outside of the steel all you have to do is have something that sheds the protective Iron oxide coating continuously the same as in the Aluminum.

Burning is the exothermic reaction of two elements in the gaseous state, usually an oxidation reaction. Rusting is not burning, it is the (slow) oxidation of solid iron. In order to burn steel some of it must be vaporised, which is clearly not possible at room temperature.

[Pardalis]

Crazy Chainsaw, was the "spontaneous thermite reaction" a major contributor to the collapse or just a superficial side effect?

[patchbunny]

Since when were warships made out of aluminium?

-Andrew

You used to find it used in the construction of the ship superstructures. Some brief info is here at the sci.military.naval FAQ. (http://www.hazegray.org/faq/smn6.htm#F7)

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The steel is vaporised on an atomic scale by its own reaction with Oxygen producing heat.
If that is not the case why does rusting steel release heat?

[gumboot]

The steel is vaporised on an atomic scale by its own reaction with Oxygen producing heat.
If that is not the case why does rusting steel release heat?


I don't think something can be vapourised on an atomic scale. Vapour denotes a relationship BETWEEN atoms.

-Andrew

[Darth Rotor]

Since when were warships made out of aluminium?
-Andrew
You used to find it used in the construction of the ship superstructures. Some brief info is here at the sci.military.naval FAQ. (http://www.hazegray.org/faq/smn6.htm#F7)
Spruance and Ticonderoga class DD's and CG's had significant amounts of aluminum in their superstructures. On the Aegis CG I was on, there had been added Kevlar to the O-3 and O-4 levels (Upper part of the superstructure) to resist shrapnel and small arms. Likewise on one of the Spruance DD's I was on. (I am guessing this was a universal practice.)

The Arleigh Burke DDG's signalled a return to a primarily Steel superstructure.

DR

[Crazy Chainsaw]

It helped to weaken the steel, and the resulting explosions Would have greatly accelerated the collapse no better way to trigger explosive thermite than my dropping a building on it.
It would bust concrete as easy as a hammer though an egg shell.
The engineering community is only looking at engineering, the physics community only at the physics what if there is something both sides are missing?
What if there is something we can find out that can save lives in the future, from the world trade center disaster, is that not worth my site, or what I have been though?

[Cuddles]

The steel is vaporised on an atomic scale by its own reaction with Oxygen producing heat.
If that is not the case why does rusting steel release heat?

It releases heat because the particles in iron oxide are at a lower energy level than when they are seperately in metallic iron and molecular oxygen. The state of the reactants has no bearing on whether the reaction is exothermic. When iron rusts it does not vaporise, the energy given out from one atom reacting is not enough to completely disociate it from the metal, otherwise the rust would not accumulate on iron things, it would float off into the air.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I don't think something can be vapourised on an atomic scale. Vapour denotes a relationship BETWEEN atoms.

-Andrew

It still releases the same amount of energy when it reacts on the Atomic scale as it does when it reacts on a non atomic scale.
What is the amount of heat released by Iron in the oxidation reaction per atom? Removed of the oxide coat Iron is also self heating, exactly like Aluminum.

Look at page 6 on this pdf please
http:/http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/pdf/sciamer8980.pdf
it might give you some idea, and remember air is a fluid, Liquids and Gases both are fluid forms they flow, and react with solids.

[chipmunk stew]

It helped to weaken the steel, and the resulting explosions Would have greatly accelerated the collapse no better way to trigger explosive thermite than my dropping a building on it.
It would bust concrete as easy as a hammer though an egg shell.
The engineering community is only looking at engineering, the physics community only at the physics what if there is something both sides are missing?
What if there is something we can find out that can save lives in the future, from the world trade center disaster, is that not worth my site, or what I have been though?
Thanks for posting upthread the publisher and author of the paper you've been writing about. You mention here you have a site--would you please provide a link?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

However it is essentially the same reaction, and heat makes the compounds more reactive, so imagine something that both sheers off the crystalline Iron Oxide, and and increases the reactivity of the metal steel to the reaction.
I only used burn, because it makes it easier to understand the reaction, for people not accustom to chemical terms, and also the Iron atom has to dislodge from the Iron for the reaction to take place. IT adheres back on the surface because it is actually weakly attracted to the Iron. As it builds up that attraction is weakened and it falls off. If it were not dislodged from the iron rusting could not occur, that is why a material has to vaporize for burning, combustion to take place.
Enough of the compound has to be vapor to allow the reaction to auto ignite more material, or the reaction stops.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Thanks for posting upthread the publisher and author of the paper you've been writing about. You mention here you have a site--would you please provide a link?

I will provide a link when the article is published, It will probibly be a week from today I am not in control of that others are they want everything to be prepared first.
I am just the person doing the work for them.

[Pardalis]

Today is the day!

It's tuesday, your paper is due to come out, right Crazy Chainsaw? Keep us advised.

[Pardalis]

So, Crazy Chainsaw? What about that study on spontaneous thermite reaction?

Is it out yet?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Today is the day!

It's tuesday, your paper is due to come out, right Crazy Chainsaw? Keep us advised.

This is the link, http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=22618

Does anyone know what metal this is?
http://chainsawsanders.com/blackbody1.JPG

I will give you a clue it is not iron or steel.

The work is still on going, it is not now about debunking for me, it is about saving lives in the future, I want to find a safe method to stop the process, in its tracks.
All that would have to be done is to cool the coating of the Aluminum, but the question is what would do it safely, with out triggering an explosion.

[Gravy]

You go, CC. Careful with those toenails, though!

[Brainache]

Well done Mr Chainsaw!
I'd love to see that quarter inch statue of a squirrel carved by a chainsaw.

[chipmunk stew]

This is the link, http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=22618

Does anyone know what metal this is?
http://chainsawsanders.com/blackbody1.JPG

I will give you a clue it is not iron or steel.

The work is still on going, it is not now about debunking for me, it is about saving lives in the future, I want to find a safe method to stop the process, in its tracks.
All that would have to be done is to cool the coating of the Aluminum, but the question is what would do it safely, with out triggering an explosion.
You gotta get video of this stuff, Chainsaw! Sounds like fun.
I'll add it to our article collection.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61402

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You gotta get video of this stuff, Chainsaw! Sounds like fun.
I'll add it to our article collection.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61402

I have been trying, my problem is doing this stuff with one hand, and then video taping or taking pictures with the same hand.
I have to work as long as I can at sculpting it is very time consuming, the only time I have to do experiments is when I can no longer use my left arm because it goes numb, no Shoulder joint and the nerve is constantly being pulled Stretched when I use it.
So I work the day job as long as possible, then I do the experiments to keep my mind off the physical pain, that I am in constantly.
I have been to doctors, over it but since it is an old injury they tell me there is not anything that can really be done and allow me to actually use the arm as I do.
If they repair it no freedom of movement, if they do not constant pain and numbness. No perfect solution, really no solution at all.
Just have to accept the pain, and really I would rather have the pain than the frustration of not being able to do something, think about your mind telling your body to do something and your body not doing it. That sucks a lot more than the pain.
The way I found out about the conection between thermite and sound, was because I was trying to carry a lit torch, a hammer, and motlen aluminum at the same time. I dropped the hammer, and the molten aluminum on a rusty steel plate I watched the plate ring and the rust and the aluminum mix in a small reaction. That burned though my pants at the zipper area, so Ya I did tended to notice it.
I did not try to repeat that experiment though.
I Knew that in the oridginal experiments done by Dr. Jones it would take an energy form to mix the elements I just did not know what, it was.
Once I found out it was simple to figure out.
Wave motion though matter was all it took.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Thanks for posting the link CC. Off reading it now.

ETA: Interesting, if brief, writeup. The thing of interest to me is, this is an experiment that should be easily reproducable (sp?), and therefore shouldn't take much for objective third parties to validate, or invalidate, the experiment.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Thanks for posting the link CC. Off reading it now.

ETA: Interesting, if brief, writeup. The thing of interest to me is, this is an experiment that should be easily reproducable (sp?), and therefore shouldn't take much for objective third parties to validate, or invalidate, the experiment.

That is what makes it so great, it is so easy. Once you figure it out.
Also nature has been playing tricks with Aluminum Oxide and color for years.
Can some one please send me some natural samples of Aluminum Oxides the Crown Jewels of England will work for a starter.

http://www.galleries.com/minerals/oxides/spinel/spinel.htm

http://www.galleries.com/minerals/oxides/corundum/corundum.htm

I promise to return the gold, and other elements in them not needed for the tests. :D

[Pardalis]

That's it? I'm sorry to say, it doesn't look like much. Where is the study?

ETA: I'm no scientist, but I was kind of expecting something other than an article in an Hawaiian news site.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

That's it? I'm sorry to say, it doesn't look like much. Where is the study?

ETA: I'm no scientist, but I was kind of expecting something other than an article in an Hawaiian news site.

The article was just an introduction to the work, I am now working to do more but it takes time, and until now I have been doing it all alone.
PS. The article was composed weeks ago the work has raced ahead since then. The basic thing is if I can cook up thermite anyone can, all you have to know is the recipe, and how long to cook it at what temperature, the trick is mixing it at the right temperature.
IT is cook then mix not mix then cook.

[Pardalis]

The article was just an introduction to the work, I am now working to do more but it takes time, and until now I have been doing it all alone.
PS. The article was composed weeks ago the work has raced ahead since then. The basic thing is if I can cook up thermite anyone can, all you have to know is the recipe, and how long to cook it at what temperature, the trick is mixing it at the right temperature.
IT is cook then mix not mix then cook.

Are you crazy?

Oh, right...