Theories About Magic Tricks?

[RSLancastr]

In the latest announcement (http://http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/announcement.php?s=&forumid=6), it is stated that Randi doesn't want magic secrets revealed:

"As this site is owned and operated by a professional conjurer, no discussion in which specific magical secrets are revealed; is allowed."

My question: if I don't know how a trick is performed, is it kosher to post my guess or theory as to how it is done?

Even if I am correct in my guess/theory, I'm not breaking any Conjurer's Code of Silence, since I am not a conjurer, and am only guessing.

Hal?

Mr. Randi?

[Skeptoid]

Ooooh, oooh, no more giving out computer advice, you're giving away trade secrets of IT people. No more playing amateur psychologist. You'll put the therapists out of work. Why don't the conjuror/magicians come up with something new for a change. I'm so tired of seeing the same hackneyed old tricks that half the world already knows about, I could puke. Do something that isn't so lame that only 6 year-olds are amused. Cripes. :rolleyes:

[De_Bunk]

...and i'm not telling anyone how to be a sarcastic, drunk basta*d anymore...

DB

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Hey, guess what? This forum is operated by a magician! Isn't that an amazing thing? And he doesn't want the secrets of his trade revealed. Who'd'a thunk?! I wonder if he has any friends in the magic business?

Last I checked, there was no code of secrecy among IT people, therapists, or drunken bastards. Well, except possibly among psychoanalysts.

~~ Paul :rolleyes:

[De_Bunk]

Hey...

Don't knock the "Drunken Basta*ds Lodge"...

We have our secrets...

DB

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Oh, of course, silly me! I'm going to drink a lot of wine tonight and I'm sure all the secrets will be revealed.

~~ Paul

[thatguywhojuggles]

Originally posted by Skeptoid
I'm so tired of seeing the same hackneyed old tricks that half the world already knows about, I could puke. Do something that isn't so lame that only 6 year-olds are amused. Cripes. :rolleyes:

I'm constantly amazed at how few people know about magic's most used gimmick, the tt. Everytime I use it, I think... there is no way I am going to get away with this...


btw, I don't think I gave away any trade secrets by saying "tt" did I??

[bPer]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Last I checked, there was no code of secrecy among IT people
Sure there is! Can't tell you how many times I've been called in by someone adamant that something's broken. I try it - it works. They try it - it works. They ask me what I did. I say "Nothing - it's just the magic touch".

If you want to know how I do it, show me your credentials as an IT specialist, and then we'll talk.

bPer

[DavidJames]

While we're at it, how about no more revelations about how Psychics or palm readers, mentalists, etc. perform their tricks :rolleyes:

I like magic and I also like to know how the tricks are done. When I find out, I don't like the trick any less, in fact I'm amazed at the skill required to execute it and look forward to watching someone else try it.

I'm sorry, but this is just silly. It's not like people think it's really magic ya know :)

[LeFevre]

If some methods for how some magic tricks were more known, the ones that 2nd rate swindlers use to con people, then it could help Randi with his mission to debunk crap.

[woodguard]

"As this site is owned and operated by a professional conjurer, no discussion in which specific magical secrets are revealed; is allowed."

When I first read this, my first thought was we can no longer discuss specific secrets like the one Geller, Browne or Edwards uses. They all use magical secrets which are use by “professional conjurer”

This means the end of debunking of the psychic, on this Site!

I respected Randi and the rules of the board and I understand why we need them and even this one.

But wait until it get out the king of debunkers does not like debunking in his profession.

The man who wrote “The Truth about Uri Geller” to destroy the man’s profession by reveal his secrets. (being a good thing).

I hope when this rule get out, it will not hurt the good work of Randi and the Jref!

[padakr]

Mr. Randi does not want the magician's code broken on his forum.
I'm not a magician, I've never made any pledge to uphold the "magician's code", so I can't break it.
no discussion in which specific magical secrets are revealed; is allowed
Which "specific magical secrets" does this include?

If some magic show is on TV and includes one of those "put your finger on a picture on the screen" mind reading tricks and someone posts in the forum asking how it works, I'm not allowed to try and explain it?

Does it include any "secret" already revealed in a public domain? Or only those that already haven't had books written about them or TV shows done on them? We can't discuss a magic trick that has been explained in how-to books that were written 30 years ago?

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by woodguard
WoodGuard from Canada.
I was just going to accuse you of being someone else, but then I saw your signature. Now that I know you are from Canada, you could not possibly be who I though you were!

[Skeptoid]

What post or thread provoked this silly rule anyway? Was it Brown telling about bar bets with pennies? No conjuror worth his salt should be worried about the grand revelation of how to use a matchbox to make a penny disappear. You can tell this rule was well thought out. :rolleyes:

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Well, I must admit, the rule needs some clarification. How does it apply to threads in which we are discussing paranormal claims and possibly debunking them? Does it apply to tricks that have already been revealed? Hmm, this does seem like a bottomless pit.

~~ Paul

[woodguard]

Originally posted by no one in particular
I was just going to accuse you of being someone else, but then I saw your signature. Now that I know you are from Canada, you could not possibly be who I though you were!

I Live on an island on the eastern part of the Canada, call Cape Breton.

Was it someone important ? :)

Or someone like me who has too many questions and too few answers. :confused:

[Brown]

Originally posted by woodguard
The man who wrote “The Truth about Uri Geller” to destroy the man’s profession by reveal his secrets. (being a good thing).Actually, Mr. Randi kept a few of Geller's secrets secret, saying only that they were well known to professional conjurors.

If memory serves, the "driving while blindfolded" trick was one of those that was described in these terms.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Skeptoid
What post or thread provoked this silly rule anyway? Was it Brown telling about bar bets with pennies? No conjuror worth his salt should be worried about the grand revelation of how to use a matchbox to make a penny disappear. You can tell this rule was well thought out. As I mention in this thread, (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1869935494#post1869935490) I'm concerned about this also. I wouldn't be concerned about giving away secrets to trivial tricks, except that some professional conjurors have taken tricks of comparable triviality and have made a handsome living doing them, passing them off as "psychic."

[rustypouch]

I think I understand where Randi is coming from. I'm an amateur magician, and I find that few things are as annoying as some one who knows one or two card tricks and thinks he knows them all. There have been several times when I have performed and had a person try to tell the rest of the audience how a trick was done, while I was in the middle of it. Fortunately, these people have always been way off.

I find that these people demean the art that is magic to a mere 'trick', effectively negating the hours of pratice needed to learn a trick, including the sleight itself, the timing of the effect and the story that goes along with it.

There is much more to a good magic trick than just a few sleights. It requires an interesting plot, excellent showmanship, and an unexpected ending.

BTW, I am constantly amazed by the power of the TT. I know several good tricks with it, and people never catch on. In fact, I know one person who painted his orange for a performance, an no one noticed.

[LeFevre]

I see this gag order as, in some instances, contrary to the mission of the JREF. I could understand if a magician were to start posting here only threads that reveals magician secrets. However, I'd say a good majority of the bastage tricksters who want to swindle use these same methods.


Magicians need to get real jobs. Tell all the secrets and let us be entertained by their skill.

[Brown]

Originally posted by rustypouch
I find that these people demean the art that is magic to a mere 'trick', effectively negating the hours of pratice needed to learn a trick, including the sleight itself, the timing of the effect and the story that goes along with it. What is hard to explain is that a good deal of the magic is in the presentation, not in the secret. Sometimes the secret is ridiculously simple, and it's the presentation that evokes the wonder. To cite an example that I've mentioned before, a certain trickster bends a spoon under the table, then simply tells his audience that the spoon bent in front of their eyes, and they believe him! It's all in the presentation.BTW, I am constantly amazed by the power of the TT. I know several good tricks with it, and people never catch on. In fact, I know one person who painted his orange for a performance, an no one noticed. When I first became aware of this item, I thought, "No one will ever fall for this!" And yet, people do. If you're performing for a video camera, you can do miracles with it.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Last I checked, there was no code of secrecy among IT people,

Some IT people claim that there is, or at least, should be. Security issues should be kept in secret so that the black-hats won't exploit them. Others, like me, favor full disclosure.

If magicians would design their own tricks, they wouldn't have to worry about someone else giving it away because no one else would know how it was done.

BTW, as far as guessing is concerned, I read somewhere that if someone correctly guesses how David Copperfied does a trick, he'll change the way he does it so that he obviously isn't doing it that way anymore. That, I think, is a cool way to go about it. Some 'mo in a mask comes on Fox and gives away the secret, do it in a way that precludes that secret.

[kittynh]

well, rules are rules. This is the James Randi Educational Foundation site. so, as a matter of courtesy, we should follow a few rules that aren't going to hurt us. This means a lot to Mr.Randi. If you read his books you'll understand this. This isn't a democracy. I think if we have any questions about a post, we should ask a moderator.

Also, a magician is about presentation. Not all magicians design all their tricks anymore than an anchor person writes the news they read. Some of the worst magicians are some of the best trick designers. Mr. Randi did put his name on a fun book about magic tricks though (very helpful for a teacher), "The Magic World of the Amazing Randi". Kids love it.

[Tesserat]

Originally posted by shanek

If magicians would design their own tricks, they wouldn't have to worry about someone else giving it away because no one else would know how it was done.


Not true. Many magicians create new tricks that other magicians can figure out.

If everybody knew the secret of a trick, magicians would have to stop performing it. Yes, there's some people who enjoy just the technical side, but they're too few to make an audience that a magician can make a living off of.

I'm a professional acrobat. And surprise!, a lot of the things I do are techniques that were first done a few hundred, if not thousand years ago. Chinese acrobats have been doing contortion and handstand work for ages. As other have pointed out, you can do the same tricks with different presentation, and still blow people away. (think Cirque Du Soleil. I was in one of their first shows, and the general technique was not original, or even world class, but the presentation was spectacular.)

And there are quite a few card tricks that use exactly the same techniques, but different presentations as other card tricks. I've had a friend show me two different tricks, and then tell me that he did the exact same techniques, in the same order, but started and stopped at different times.

The thing that screws people up, is that there's very few professions where secrecy is essential. There's at least one acrobatic trick that I do that I don't want people to find out how easy it is. (relatively - you still need a good handstand, and lots of courage). But it looks nasty difficult. Should I go around telling my audiences that it's not that hard? Why?


originally posted by woodguard
But wait until it get out the king of debunkers does not like debunking in his profession

Debunking a magician? Are you serious? IF a magicians represents what he's doing as real magic, then he's not a magician, he's a woo woo. You can't "debunk" a magician, you can only reveal the techniques behind the tricks.

The "what does it matter" attitude is typical of people who don't make a living in the magic profession. So the magical trade includes a code of ethics different than other trades. So what. What does it cost you to respect that? If you want to know how tricks are done, there's books that you can buy that will give you the secrets to most of the tricks. What's the matter? You don't want to spend the money? But you're willing to tell the trick to anybody, and reduce the amount of money a magician can make?

I have many magician friends that tell me how tricks are done - as long as they're in the general knowledge pool. But they don't tell me the secrets of any of their original tricks, and I don't ask. Most magicians I know are incredibly generous with help for beginners. It's just the realities of the entertainment business that dictate the code of secrecy. It's a practical matter, not a superiority thing. It's sad that so many of the people I meet who want to know how a trick is done, if they find out, suddenly feel superior to the magician.

Respect the profession. Magicians have done a lot of work to create the things they do.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Tesserat
I have many magician friends that tell me how tricks are done - as long as they're in the general knowledge pool. But they don't tell me the secrets of any of their original tricks, and I don't ask. Most magicians I know are incredibly generous with help for beginners.I want to expand on this point a bit, because I think it's important. A lot of famous performers have disclosed simple tricks on television, as "a trick you can do to amaze your friends." The Pendragons, Harry Anderson, Mac King, Lance Burton, Harry Blackstone, Jr. and Mark Wilson, to name a few, have disclosed some secrets from the "general knowledge pool."

I suspect that this sort of disclosure is consistent with the magicians' code, because (1) it shows that amazing effects can have simple explanations without resort to mystical explanations; (2) it fosters an interest in the art of conjuring; and (3) few (if any) conjurors perform the disclosed tricks in their acts, so disclosure does not adversely affect them.

I suggest that disclosures of this kind ought to be permitted on this forum.

(Amazing Jonathan and Penn and Teller, for example, sometimes go further, exposing secrets of stage illusions currently performed by amateur and professional magicians. I suggest that their exposures, if made on this forum, would be improper.)

[Luggage]

I just want to say that to me, watching the "Masked Magician" was quite an eye opener. It was very interesting to see that big, impossible illusions really were simple little tricks dressed up with lots of acting. So, while I respect Mr Randi's right to have whatever rules he want on his forum, I think that revealing how magic tricks is done can make the general public more aware of easy it is to be misled.

--
Luggage

[EvilYeti]

EvilYeti's theory about how all magic tricks work:

The magician cheats.

Do I lose my account now?

[reprise]

I can't say that knowing how an illusion is created has ever diminished my enjoyment of its performance, and clearly my knowing how a major illusion works isn't going to disadvantage professional illusionists in any way as I'm not going to be performing that illusion in competition with them. Other professional illusionists are probably already aware of how the "trick" works (or could soon figure it out by seeing it performed), so this particularly rule seems more about maintaining the mystery which is part of the illusionist's stock in trade that about protecting the livelihood of professional illusionists. It would be fun to know how some of the more dramatic illusions work, but it's no big deal if I never find out.

I find it far more disturbing that magicians are few and far between in this country and so prohibitively expensive to see perform live that my children have only ever seen illusionists perform on television.

[Mercutio]

Whenever I've seen Penn & Teller, they've done a particular trick twice: once as usual, once clearly giving away the secret (using clear cups for the cups & balls trick, using clear boxes for a dismembered body bit). The first time, you saw the trick as we see them all the time, and it was very well done. The second time, you got to see the incredible dexterity and hard work that went into the illusion, and it was mind-blowing.

Of course P&T made a big deal about how magicians hate it when they do this, but to what extent that is true, as opposed to their "bad boys of magic" image, I cannot say. I just know that, in this specific instance, peeking behind the curtain increased, rather than diminished, my appreciation for their art (and skill, and hard work).

[Tesserat]

Originally posted by Luggage
So, while I respect Mr Randi's right to have whatever rules he want on his forum, I think that revealing how magic tricks is done can make the general public more aware of easy it is to be misled.


I agree that it would help a bit, but unless a person knows how to think critically, it wouldn't help a lot. Say a person learns technique x to do a levitation. Then he sees a Pyschic who levitates in a situation where technique x could not be possible. The person could think "I know how levitations can be faked, but that technique could not be used here, so this one must be real."
I know a magician who thought that the moon landings were fake after watching the Fox special. Teaching critical thinking is much more important than a few magic tricks.


originally posted by reprise

I can't say that knowing how an illusion is created has ever diminished my enjoyment of its performance, and clearly my knowing how a major illusion works isn't going to disadvantage professional illusionists in any way as I'm not going to be performing that illusion in competition with them. Other professional illusionists are probably already aware of how the "trick" works (or could soon figure it out by seeing it performed), so this particularly rule seems more about maintaining the mystery which is part of the illusionist's stock in trade that about protecting the livelihood of professional illusionists. It would be fun to know how some of the more dramatic illusions work, but it's no big deal if I never find out.



That's a very common argument, and I agree that knowing how a trick works adds a different level of enjoyment.

But think of it this way. Say you hear a good joke. It makes you laugh. Then you hear it again. It makes you smile. Then again, and pretty soon, you start looking for other people's reactions instead of enjoying the joke itself. Eventually, everybody's heard it, and you get tired of hearing it. And you start critiquing the joke teller's technique, etc. Then no one wants to hear it.

Magic is kinda like that, except that even when you know what's going to happen, it still looks impossible. So the magician can perform the same trick over and over. I can blow people away over and over with an invisible deck. As soon as some one learns the secret, it becomes like a joke that you know the punchline to. You go to see it just to admire the technique.

If that's really what you like, join the International Brotherhood of Magicians, go to a convention, and you'll be in a whole audience who know how the trick is done.

Magicians don't reveal the secrets of big illusions because if one person knows, they will tell others, etc. The big illusions cost big bucks, and the magicians want to get as much milage as possible from them.

And the secrets cost money. There's a few tricks you can buy that don't even involve props (or you make your own). What's being sold is the principle. If pay $1000 for a trick, I'm not going to turn around an give it to some one who's not even going to use it. Plus, when a magician buys a trick, he does not buy the right to reveal that trick.




I find it far more disturbing that magicians are few and far between in this country and so prohibitively expensive to see perform live that my children have only ever seen illusionists perform on television.


Yes, illusionists are expensive. There are many magicians who do birthday parties for reasonable prices, but they won't be doing many illusions. Some illusions require two or three people. All of them must be paid. Plus, the illusionist is trying to pay for all those illusions. An origami costs about $15,000, last I heard. I agree that it'd be nice to have cheaper shows, perhaps sponsored by a community. Another option is asking your children's school to hire a magician. Many have very good educational shows.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by RSLancastr

"As this site is owned and operated by a professional conjurer, no discussion in which specific magical secrets are revealed; is allowed."

My question: if I don't know how a trick is performed, is it kosher to post my guess or theory as to how it is done?

Even if I am correct in my guess/theory, I'm not breaking any Conjurer's Code of Silence, since I am not a conjurer, and am only guessing.

Hal?

Mr. Randi?

I agree. I am not a conjurer. I think, as one "purpose" of this forum is to promote critical, analytical thought on supposedly paranormal acts ( say, pulling rabbits ) then communicating a theory of how the pulling a rabbit or even several out of a small stovetop hat would be acceptable. I think I can ask How could that be faked? and present ideas on how that act could be faked.

Many people attribute magic acts and conjurings (and the people that perform them) as mystical, paranoramal, and miraculous.

[Seelie]

*ponders*
*decides to stir the pot*
*stir stir stir*

A lot of mention is made of this site being owned and ran by the JREF and Randi. Which is true. However, it is ~funded~ by donations and memberships. I myself purchased memberships in my name and my husbands almost a year ago expressly for the purpose of helping to fund this forum. Others I know of did as well. Many folks donated beyond their membership fee in a number of "telethon drives" specifically to be used to pay for this forum.

However, this is what is said in the announcement -- "It doesn't make much sense for Mr. Randi to pay for a forum that undercuts the viability of conjurers, and may impact their ability to make a living, hence this new rule. "

The above quote infers that Mr Randi pays for the forum on his own. It makes no mention of the donators from telethons and etc. No mention of people who bought memberships expressly for the purpose of helping fund this board.

Now, I'm not saying that contributors should have the right to say whatever they wish. They donate to the board with the understanding and trust that it is being run how they wish ... otherwise they would not donate.

However, the message that this announcement indirectly puts out is, in my opinion, somewhat in poor taste --- "Don't impinge upon my ability to earn money by revealing my trade secrets ... even though I'll debunk others' trade secrets at will." With no mention at all of ~who~ actually does fund this board in truth.

I can certainly hope that is not what was meant, and the announcement was worded poorly ...

Again, only my own opinion ... others' opinions will assuredly differ .... Myself, going back to the lurking corner.

(edited to re-phrase for clarification)

[Tesserat]

Originally posted by davefoc


Still, it grated, with me a bit. Perhaps, incorrectly, I have always taken the magician's reputed dislike of people who reveal how tricks are done with a grain of salt. There is a massive set of magic how to books including numerous books on people like Houdini that reveal a great deal about how the classic illusions were done. Most of us are well aware the major skill is in the presentation, showmanship, courage and the physical ability to do the trick. Knowledge of the trick is of little value and for many if not most tricks, widely available for people who seek it.



In order for people to really understand why there's a "code of secrecy", they'd have to spend 10 years studying magic, pay their dues doing birthday parties, restaraunts, comedy clubs, fairs, festivals, ekeing out a living, trying to support a family with a profession that they love. Then you're on a magic tour, feeling like you're making it. Your act gets a great response, especially your "linking rings". It's a very old trick, but your presentation is new, and has been praised by audiences and magicians alike.

Then one day, the Masked magician reveals how the trick is done.

This happened to a friend of mine who does a tour across Canada. The result? Instead of gasps, he heard whispers as people explained to each other that they knew how it was done. (yes, I was in the audience) Instead of strong applause, it was weak, polite.

If you're not in the business, it's very hard to completely understand what the effect is. Please take my word for it, and Hal's and Randi's.

It's very hard to think of a profession that has the same problem. Comedians, maybe? If somebody stood outside a
comedy club, and told everybody all the jokes that the comedian was going to use that night, don't you think it might have a negative effect? And if you say, well, at least he'd be forced to come up with some thing new, you really don't know the business.


I think that if a discussion starts on how a pyskic (i can't spell that word) does a trick, it's OK to speculate on how it's done. But it would NOT be Ok to say "yes, that's the same as David Blaine, who does it like this..."

I think it's OK to say "it sounds identical to a magic trick done by Lance Burton" - as long as you don't reveal Lance's technique, or confirm that another's guess is the same as Lance's trick.

Hal, any clarification?

[Tesserat]

Originally posted by Seelie


However, this is what is said in the announcement -- "It doesn't make much sense for Mr. Randi to pay for a forum that undercuts the viability of conjurers, and may impact their ability to make a living, hence this new rule. "

...




I'd agree that the word "pay" wasn't a good choice. Perhaps "support", "endorse" -something more along those lines?


"Don't impinge upon my ability to earn money by revealing my trade secrets ... even though I'll debunk others' trade secrets at will."


I don't think that Randi makes much of his income directly from magic performances any more. But I'm sure that he feels an obligation to uphold the codes of his craft. Being a magician is one of the things that put him where he is today. I think debunking snake oil salesmen in all their many disguises is a good thing, the snake oil salesmen create harm. The secrets of magic is a much diffirent class, and the reasons for keeping the secrets is very different.

I'm surprised that members of the forum seem to imply that there's a kind of hypocrisy involved.

A magician tells his audience, just by calling himself a magician, "This is fake, but it's a glorious illusion"

A snake oil salesman gives himself a official sounding name "Doctor" "Phd" "John Edward", and tells people "This is no illusion. Believe in me"

Snake oil sales people can't even admit that they have secrets, so they can't publicly ask people not to reveal them.

I think the confusion arises because magic is the only legitimate profession that has to do this. There's no common experience for most people to say, "yeah, I understand, it's like the job I had at McDonald's"

The only other professions that I can think of that have to keep secrets are the military, and the film industry. I've had to sign secrecy waivers a few times. (I've performed for a Malaysian princess)

Randi understands the impact that revealing magic secrets can have, so if he can, he'd like to limit it.

[xouper]

Regarding the keeping of trade secrets:

Tesserat: I think the confusion arises because magic is the only legitimate profession that has to do this. There's no common experience for most people to say, "yeah, I understand, it's like the job I had at McDonald's"From this comment, I infer that you are not familiar with non-disclosure agreements that are quite common in many industries, not just the military or the profession of magic.

[Tesserat]

xouper,

Yes, I'm familiar with different kinds of non disclosure agreements, as I've also said, I've had to sign a few. You're right, my comment was a bit extreme. In magic, the secrecy is a bit more in your face, and the non disclosure is voluntary.

Can you think of any other professions that rely on a voluntary secrecy agreement?

[Earthborn]

I'm surprised that members of the forum seem to imply that there's a kind of hypocrisy involved.

A magician tells his audience, just by calling himself a magician, "This is fake, but it's a glorious illusion"Yes, but it is almost impossible to educate people in critical thinking if you don't reveal how particular tricks are done. The psychic fakers often use exactly the same techniques, so if you want to convince someone that what they do is fake, you'll need to explain the trick. Just saying "It was a trick" is not very convincing.

Education is explaining how things work. Keeping a secret is not education.It's a very old trick, but your presentation is new, and has been praised by audiences and magicians alike.

Then one day, the Masked magician reveals how the trick is done.Do you feel the same way about all the children's magazines that once featured cardboard cut-out versions of the trick? Or all the magic sets that had it? It's not like the trick ever was much of a secret. I doubt your friend ever performed it before an audience without a large percentage of people knowing exactly how it worked.

And ask yourself: why did the magicians also like it? Why aren't other people allowed to like it in the same way?

[xouper]

Tesserat: Can you think of any other professions that rely on a voluntary secrecy agreement?Most of the examples I am aware of are not voluntary, and the trade secrets are protected by contract.

I can't speak with any authority on the matter, but do used car salesman not have a "gentleman's agreement" not to disclose the secrets of their trade to the public? Or do they sign NDAs?

How about those (alleged) psychic stores seen around town that have signs in the window "tarot readings", etc. Do they have contracts in place to keep their trade secrets confidential? I suppose you might argue that these so-called psychics aren't a "legitimate" profession, but that would be quibbling about what is (or is not) a "profession".

In my profession as a contract software engineer, I am often expected to keep confidential the software trade secrets of the companies I do business with, even when I don't sign an NDA. For example, I am not at liberty to discuss the trade secrets embedded in the software I wrote for the wireless communications protocols of a recent client, even though they didn't ask me to sign a contract. I suppose they could sue under an implied agreement, though.

If a magician buys a certain trick or illusion that comes with a contract not to disclose the secret, isn't that no longer voluntary? Or are you saying such contracts not used?

I don't know where this conversation is going. I'm satisfied that I made my point that magicians are not the only profession that has trade secrets to protect. Beyond that, I'm not sure I have any real point to make.

[wayrad]

Originally posted by Tesserat
Can you think of any other professions that rely on a voluntary secrecy agreement?

Locksmithing? There seems to be a constant low-level conflict between the pros, who want to avoid publicizing lockpicking techniques, and the hobbyists who do it for fun.

[Tesserat]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Yes, but it is almost impossible to educate people in critical thinking if you don't reveal how particular tricks are done. The psychic fakers often use exactly the same techniques, so if you want to convince someone that what they do is fake, you'll need to explain the trick. Just saying "It was a trick" is not very convincing.

Education is explaining how things work. Keeping a secret is not education.


Magic isn't education either. Magic is entertainment. Magic can be used to educate. And Magic, as a profession, depends on secrecy.

Exposing magic trick in order to debunk psychic fakers is a grey area for me. Things like techniques of cold reading have been thouroughly discussed, I think that's great. If a magician demonstartes that he/she can do the trick as well as the pyschic, wolud that be enough?




Do you feel the same way about all the children's
magazines that once featured cardboard cut-out versions of the trick? Or all the magic sets that had it? It's not like the trick ever was much of a secret. I doubt your friend ever performed it before an audience without a large percentage of people knowing exactly how it worked.


National TV is seen by more people than the number of kid's magazines. Magic sets are bought by people who want to learn magic. And the Masked magician was sensationalized by Fox. I do think there's a difference. I work a lot with magicians, and you'd be surprised at the number of people who have no clue how the linking rings work. A large percentage of people knowing exactly how they work? We'd be talking opinions here, since neither of us has any studies to back us up. I work in the business, and I'd say that you're wrong. What's your background in magic?




And ask yourself: why did the magicians also like it? Why aren't other people allowed to like it in the same way?

They're "allowed" to enjoy it any way they like. If they want to enjoy it that way, let them buy a magic kit. Or make friends with a magician. I'm not against people learning magic, I'm against people thinking that they have a right to have their idle curiosity satisfied.

I've shown a lot of peoople how to do simple tricks. If they practise, learn the trick, and show me that they're interested in learning more, I teach them. Sometimes I'll show somebody a trick, they'll try it once or twice, and demand that I tell them the secret of another trick. I say no.


xouper;
When you buy small tricks, it's voluntary, with larger illusions, it's sometimes written in the sales agreement.

wayrad;
cool example.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Yes, but it is almost impossible to educate people in critical thinking if you don't reveal how particular tricks are done. The psychic fakers often use exactly the same techniques, so if you want to convince someone that what they do is fake, you'll need to explain the trick. Just saying "It was a trick" is not very convincing.I think this point goes to the heart of the controversy. Sometimes conjurors and psychic phonies do almost exactly the same tricks. In order to expose one, you'd have to cause harm to the other.

In cases like this, the best course is to say that professional magicians recognize that this is a trick, without revealing how the trick is performed.

I think it ought to be all right to describe, in general terms, what may be going on, because specific secrets are not being revealed.

Consider:
Conjuror A and conjuror B bend cutlery in their acts. One technique they use (or probably use) is to bend the cutlery when the audience is not looking. Conjuror A is better at it than conjuror B, because conjuror A can keep the cutlery in view the entire time, while conjuror B hides the cutlery from view for a brief moment. If you watch these two individuals on video in slow motion, you can see conjuror A actually bending the cutlery, and you can see conjuror B hiding the cutlery for just a moment.

Saying "he bends it when you're not looking" does not really give away the secret, because most people don't believe it's that simple. During the performance in "real time," these moves are unnoticeable. Unless a spectator knows exactly what to look for, the spectator won't see these moves at all. Instead, the spectator will insist that the effect took place in full view, and there never was a time when he wasn't looking.

Some people may not be satisfied with the "he bends it when you're not looking" explanation, but it would be giving away a conjuror's secret to explain how the spectator's attention is misdirected and how the bending is performed.

By the way, conjurors A and B are real people. Conjuror A is a professional magician who performed this feat on television within the last two years. Conjuror B claims to be able to bend the cutlery with psychic powers.